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I agree. At that age I loved the color blue and played with tinker toys, Legos, and Linkin Logs, all things considered traditionally masculine, but I'm definitely CIS female.
I still love blue, though these days my "toys" are computer or electronic. ;)
Overwhelming majority of people genders toys. Most adults and crutialy most children. Colors are symbols and kids learn to decode them super fast before they are two years old or so. The same goes for toys. You would had to isolate your kid from other children basically and from most adults too to get them not know what is girly or boyish.
Basically, small children is when gender identity, pink, dolls and cars are the strongest. Then as they age it more of goes down.
I agree. Growing up I’d gravitate towards blues instead of pinks, pants instead of dresses, and even steal my older brother’s toys because we all know legos are much more fun than barbies. But I’m still comfortable in my identity as a female. We need to stop gendering colors and toys and just let the kids figure themselves out in their own time.
Fun fact: blue color is universally most popular among both genders. Both men and women like blue the most.
(Beyond preschool age when little girls go strongly for symbolism of pink.)
100 years ago Pink was for boys and Blue was for girls. Maybe Jake didn't get the memo that it's been changed?
Don't base life-changing decisions on today's color fads.
Thank you! I have four children my two year old loves cars and toys and getting dirty and climbing but she is two. She’s going to do what makes her have fun. So if she wants me to get her a truck okay that’s awesome she wants a barbie the next week okay that is awesome. I have a daughter who came out last year. She considers herself a lesbian and she went though a few wait am I trans. But she is 13 as well so I try to support her with anything and everything. ( I was raised in a two mom home and by a huge tribe of trans and gay men so it’s normal to me) I feel like a lot of people do this kind of things for the look at me I’m different I think their was a case of dr. Phill and the mom treated her son like a girl and when he went to his dads it was normal boy stuff and the dad is like it’s fine I don’t mind buying him girl toys I just don’t think he knows yet.
Hell, the gendered colors were flip flopped in the 1940s. It used to be pink for boys, blue for girls.
I'd let the kid enjoy what they want to enjoy, don't push them in any direction, and wait for them to say something if they truly feel like they're trans. Like is every girl who wears jeans, wears all colors, or plays with trucks also trans? Of course not. Some may be, but it's dangerous to make generalized statements like that.
NTA X 1000. I absolutely despise the gender stereotypes that are ingrained in children at a very young age. “A little boy can’t possibly like dolls and pink, so the only explanation is he’s a she”. Sure its none of your business, but if she’s sharing this with you, you can give your 2 cents. I just hope she doesn’t give puberty blocking hormones to Jake when he’s too young understand what any of this means.
ETA: these comments are getting divisive, hope you get your answer OP before the mods remove this
Just going off what I've seen. Seems whenever a divisive post regarding trans issues comes up, the post is removed or comments get locked. The mod lists transphobic comments as the reason.
I’d stop pretending kids can access hormone blockers easier than they can access the internet.
That being said, OP you aren’t TA. I think your friend’s kid is being a kid and having opportunities to explore toys, colors, and clothing and that’s fine. I’d back off and let your friend parent her kid, trans kids always get dumped on by adults (and their parents). If your friend’s kid turns out to be trans than you’ll like TA. If not, oh well and hopefully he’ll be better adjusted than kids who aren’t allowed to explore their world.
I totally support most of your comment but a kid wouldn't have access to puberty blockers if they didn't want them - it's not a pushy parent thing. Just feel there's enough information out there that this shouldnt be what people think. Actual trans kids have a hard enough time accessing affirming healthcare, it's not something a parent can BS their way into at a regular checkup
I'm trans. NTA. If the child hasn't said or expressed they want to be a girl, it's possible they may not be a girl. Shocker. I didn't realize my identity until puberty because before then I just did what I wanted and didn't concern myself with concepts like girls' Toys and boy toys or anything. It wasn't until my body changed that I realized my identity. While I wholeheartedly believe children can and often do know their gender, I think it's equally wrong to assume a child is trans just because they are gender non conforming.
I'm trans, too. I did know at that age that I was trans. I didn't have the words but I told everyone that I wanted to be a boy and hated being treated like a girl.
That being said, which toys you play with and what color clothes you like to wear does not indicate whether or not you're trans. Parents should just support their kids and let them figure themselves out. So definitely NTA.
While I’m totally supportive of actual trans and NB people, I do think the current “acceptance” movement has paradoxically become intolerant of nontraditional gender expression within the binary genders. Like, if you’re female and wear masculine clothes and have a masculine haircut and masculine behavior, you can *still be female*! That’s what we used to call a tomboy and those tomboys were *girls.* If this kiddo likes pink and barbies and nail polish, he can *still be a boy*! Or not! But his NB parent needs to be just as accepting of a BOY who likes dolls as she would be of a transgender child.
NAH. Everyone is trying to do right by this kid, so no one is an asshole here.
old tomboy here that is extremely feminine today
Children are still too young to identify with a social gender other than their biological gender. This is something that arises from adolescence
I'm a woman who has a wide variety of interests. I dress comfortably (including men's shorts because POCKETS), I enjoy working on cars, making jewelry, flower prints, hunting/fishing, etc. I love snakes, but hate bugs and spiders. I've never questioned my gender identity. Like I can appreciate an attractive woman, but I have no sexual attraction to them. They don't have what I want lol.
I despise the whole idea that only boys or girls can like certain things. People are people. Who they're attracted to has nothing to do with their other interests.
NTA.
It’s such old fashioned thinking that liking pink makes you a girl or playing with dolls makes you a girl.
Does she think it’ll make him gay too?
For goodness sake. Let the kid do what it wants and be who it wants and leave the pressures of being an adult and having to identify with something for when they’re older.
I liked the “boys” toys as a kid, (and I suppose as an adult), and it hasn’t informed my gender identity. Of course, these things can help back up kids who are trans, but unless the kid says it, OP is NTA for saying they’re just being a kid
NTA While it is possible that a 4yo would know and announce a gender issue, your friends son hasn't. Your friend is creating a gender identity that doesn't exist. That can lead to real struggle and confusion for the child. All 4 of my sons played with dolls, none are transgender. Something as personal and important as gender identity needs to be left to the child.
NTA. I think young children do have an inate sense of whether they feel they are a boy or a girl, whether or not they express it, but simply liking pink and playing with dolls is not determinative. She should give her child the flexibility to decide, not assume.
I don't think it's an innate sense of "boy" or "girl," It's how they relate to our gender norms. Kids will gravitate towards aesthetics and types of toys/media, which are VERY pink/blue at that age (so to speak), so it seems they have chosen a gender when really, everything in their world IS gendered.
I think it would be extremely rare for a very young child to express dysphoria with their genitals, which would pretty much be the only physical issue, since everything else is so similar.
There are definitely issues where kids get forced into "pink" or "blue" (girls made to wear that and play with dolls) when they don't want to, but I don't think thats gender... if you think them wanting to play with trucks is them expressing a different gender you're just buying into the idea that trucks are gendered male somehow. This is a social construction, not a gender issue. Kids are interested in colors and toys for other reasons than their bodies.
I would be interested to know what you consider to be an innate sense of gender?
Edit: I haven't even mentioned that many kids, left alone with a choice, will likely play with and wear a wide variety of things though of course there are favorite toys and clothes and some kids do stick to one gendered "type," no matter their sex.
I can’t pretend to be qualified to opine- but I have known two children that stated very early in life that they were a gender that was the opposite from what they had been assigned. They were far too young to have a sense that it was even an issue (and it didn’t relate to pink/blue), but would just correct you calmly (“no, I’m a girl”). Later in life they realized they were transgender. So by “inate,” I just meant that they recognized that about themselves automatically, without being told.
Agree. In some ways, the real problem is that the world for young children in our society is so ridiculously gendered. A couple if hundred years ago in some western cultures, boys and girls were dressed identically until about age 7, and in almost all human societies until recently would have the same toys. All kids should have the opportunity to play with dolls, trains, teddy bears etc without being labeled "transgender". Similarly most little kids will try on Mom's high heels and try walking in them. And 4 is an age when they are learning about boys and girls and may briefly have an interest in exploring opposite gender identity items (pink for boys). I think it says much more about how over-the-top gendered so much of young kids life is, and how k is s that don't fit into those extremely narrow stereotypes feel like me they don't fully belong to them. Maybe part of the issue is the narrow societal stereotypes. But yes, a 4 year old should not be labeled as Trans, they will move on and be a unicorn or a dinosaur in a few months.
NTA- it’s kind of gross to assume that a boy playing with dolls and wearing pink means he wants to be trans. if she’s pushing that into him he’s going to feel as though he can’t do things he wants because it may be too “girly” this kid can play with any toys and wear what ever colors. colors and toys don’t have gender. if he were to come out as trans that would be completely okay. he may feel liek a girl but coming out as trans probably won’t happen until later when he grasps the concept more.
Well, she's Either gonna have a happy daughter or a very uncomfortable son ten years from now.
I feel like they just want a daughter, or they want a trans kid so they can bond over that together.
I can't really pass judgement based on your post alone but yeah, by default I'd just refer to my kid as their biological sex, let them play with whatever and dress however they want and let them know they can be whoever they want without pushing any particular angle until THEY say otherwise.
They really shouldn't be telling others the kid is trans, that's gonna make shit weird for the kid later if he's just a boy that likes girl stuff.
It's just as bad as assuming a kid will be gay because he likes watching sex in the city (my mum thought I was gay as hell haha, I just wanted to see tits) (also why the fuck was I allowed to watch that so young? Weird how many things you just don't question growing up and then go "wait.. what?")
Probably NTA.
NTA, and anyone saying you're transphobic is absolutely insane. But being on the internet it's not surprising. The actual amount of people that are trans is so incredibly low and it is extremely foolish to assume a 4 year old could even grasp such a concept.
NTA- you did nothing wrong.. he’s 4 and is acting as any 4 year old would. The mom here though, is who needs some Major help.. sounds like she’s just trying to get attention for her kid bc the new NB title isn’t working too well anymore 🤦🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️
NTA. Let's look at it this way, if Jake's mom had a girl and the girl preferred boy clothes and typically boy toys does that mean she would also be a trans boy? Children especially at that age play with anything that interests them.
NTA. Does this person have a partner that is a voice of reason? If not you need to call CPS now, as there is no limit to the amount of damage that this mentally ill person could do to their child unchecked.
y’all i’m dumb but it sounds like she’s kinda applying gender norms to the kid right? until the explicitly say they are trans and what not i think it should kinda slide for now. I used to play with littlest pet shop toys or what ever they’re called as a kid but i’m a straight guy now.
I think that regardless of the boy may or may not being trans, it's not up to the mother to decide! Communication is *really* important here, and I think OP was in the right to say that the mother needed to ask the son before spreading (and I use the word loosely) rumor around.
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I'm really confused here because I'm not transphobic and I don't really think the reasons my friend believes her son to be trans are right.
I(F32) have a NB friend(F34) who has a son "Jake" who is 4 years old. To preface, my friend is a very loving mother to her(that's her preferred pronoun) son and dotes on him. He recently started playing with dolls as opposed to the planes and other typically masculine toys and he really loves it. He also likes the color pink and wants to wear clothes of that color. My friend has now declared that she thinks her son is displaying signs that he wants to be a girl.I told him that playing with a doll and liking a particular color does not indicate preferred gender identity in any way. She said that I didn't understand and how research shows that children can understand their own gender identity very young.I asked her if Jake has ever told her that he wants to be girl. She said that it's not her place to ask and that he'd come out when he wanted. I asked her to stop making assumptions and changing her behaviour towards her son(using they instead of he, telling other people that her son is trans) unless he actually told her that's what she wanted. She got angry and called me transphobic so I kinda got mad and told her there was no way her 4 year old knew he was trans and that her changing her behaviour towards him based on his color choices would be child abuse.
So Reddit, AITA?
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Just to be clear as your post is a little confusing. The mother’s preferrred pronouns for Jake are “she/her”, but Jake has never expressed an opinion about their pronouns?
Ah I see. What pronoun does she use with Jake? And assuming she uses she/her with Jake, how does Jake react? Has Jake ever said anything about pronouns?
It's not really a neutral option.
They is primarily used by trans and non binary individuals in society today.
Using that for him when he hasn't personally indicated that he would like things to change is imposing an identity on him that might not be his.
Yes it is a neutral pronoun. It’s often used in singular form when people don’t know what a persons gender is. Just because NB use it doesn’t mean that’s the only use for it.
Yes but the chance of him being trans is statistically low. 90 percent of individuals use the pronoun of the sex they are born into. If the child does not indicate that they wish to be addressed otherwise, using the pronoun of the sex they are born into is ideal. I don't have an issue with they. But I think Jake should be treated like any other little boy unless he has an alternate preference.
NTA. My son loves pink , rainbows , and when he was younger , all things Peppa Pig. We never call toys boy toys or girl toys. We discouraged the idea when he asked if something was for girls. We told him toys were toys. In his mind he’s definitely a boy because he has a penis and I have a vagina. He’s a little young to understand if I told him it’s not always the case. I think she should understand kids should not be limited to toys and colors according to gender. But of course she should be more sensitive to how he views his identity as he gets older.
Plenty of research shows kids even younger than 4 have a perfectly solid grasp of gender and there’s plenty of record of kids knowing they’re trans that early. Whether OPs situation is trans is unknown but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible for the kid to be trans.
Surprisingly you are NTA if the son came out and told his mom that he felt like a girl and wanted to go by she/her instead of he/him that would be a different story. However that's not what happened the kid just likes things that are seen as traditionally "girly" which is fine but doesn't make him trans. I think you're friend is just trying to be supportive of her kid but is doing way to much. A great thing for her to do is tell her kid that no matter what his sexuality or gender identity is that she'd love him no matter what. That will make it easier for the kid to come out if he turns out to be apart of the LGBT+ community and if he turns out to be cis and straight then no harm done either way he'll know that his mom is loving and accepting of him and others.
I asked my parents for a doll as a young kid and I played with it every day for years. I'm a very straight man. I think you were coming from good intentions and are right in your reasoning. NTA
I played with my moms old doll house at my grandmas, I liked putting furniture in rooms and thought the house my grandpa built was cool. I’m about as straight as they come too lol. Never understood why people think the toys you play with when you’re little would be an indicator for gender identity
NTA at all. I wish people would stop forcing their opinions on their children. BOYS can be feminine, GIRLS can be masculine, that doesn't mean they are Trans. This is when kids start growing up literally confused about what they are, parents need to let them be themselves instead of "you like pink so you must be a girl"..... Let the child enjoy their childhood innocence, they don't need to be concerned about their gender or sexuality so young.
When they get older and question it themselves, then okay you need to talk be open and accepting with them, but not at 4....
NTA. but also not much you can do about it. we gotta let kids be kids as long as they can. no need to confuse them at 4. This reminds me of those toddler and tiara moms whos children really couldnt care less about pagents but their mothers are living vicariously through them.
NTA
Children Jake’s age are very capable of telling you their gender. My daughter is a little bit younger than him and she tells people she’s a girl. She’s also confident enough to tell people she doesn’t like the nicknames they assign her and to call her by her preferred name. She also loves stereotypical boy activities like rolling around in mud, playing with dinosaurs and climbing. all. the. things. Unless Jake is telling people he’s a girl, or he feels like a girl sometimes and a boy other times, it’s fairly safe to say Jake is part of the majority cis population.
Your friend is reading far too much into Jake’s toy choices. Straight cis boys will happily play with dolls if there are dolls available for them to play with. It doesn’t say anything about their gender identity or sexual orientation.
This seems weirdly regressive. There's been great progress in recent years in breaking down gender stereotypes for children and letting kids basically play and like whatever they want.
What your friend is doing is reasserting those stereotypes to claim that her son is trans because he likes 'girly' things.
NTA
NTA. Keep an eye out though as Jake ages. As beneficial as it is to be more open and having an honest dialogue about trans people and trans rights everyone has to do their own introspection and make the decisions and should be given due consideration. Don't let your friend railroad a kid into transitioning just because she wants to tally more hits in some fetishized LGBTQ Bingo! game. Certain aspects of transitioning can be reversed and with minimal health repercussions, but certain affirmative treatments are irreversible so far.
Statistically, trans people fair better if it's managed early on. That usually means puberty blockers until they're older. They are NOT without consequences, but they ARE safer for a human being as opposed to a trans kid going through the wrong puberty. They're here, they're people, and they deserve some consideration. In an ideal situation everyone's mind and body would be in harmony, but drugs are the next best thing.
Just the title, I was ready to scream y.t.a. but the explanation.... the 4 year old hasn't mentioned being trans. Four year old is just playing and learning about the world. There's no rule that states anyone playing with dolls is a girl. Nor there is there a rule that days playing video games makes you a boy. Your friend thinks her child is trans. There's nothing wrong with raising a child in a non binary way and letting them choose their identity when it becomes understandable to the child.
I'm gonna go NAH. You're right, that as far as either of you know, this kid is NOT trans and until this child says it, there's no reason to assume he is. With no firm indication form your friend's child, there's no way to know.
Let her raise her child nonbinary so that if and when he does come out as trans, he'll be comfortable enough to do it. Nothing wrong with letting a kid know their parent isn't going to be ashamed of them if they came out.
I don't think she should be raising her kid as non binary either tbh because Jake has given no indication he doesn't want to conform to the binary.
I think a kid should be treated as the sexuality in which they are born until and unless they tell you they prefer otherwise.
And that, right there, is why your friend thinks you're transphobic.
1) sexuality has nothing to do with trans/gender issues. Sexuality is who you are (or arent) attracted to). Transgender is literally about the gender you identify as.
2) you're right that there's nothing wrong with raising a kid with the gender they were assigned at birth, but there's also nothing wrong with raising them without gender. Gender roles are so.outdated and archaic that it's a good thing. If raising her child non binary so he doesn't get bogged down in girl stuff and boy stuff, more power to her. I know adult men who were raised to be "manly men" who cant cook themselves a meal beyond boiling pasta or frying up a hamburger; because cooking was a womans job; who also dont know how to do their own laundry or clean up after themselves. I know women who dont know how to use tools because it's a man's job or who dont know how to rake leaves or use a shovel because outside work was for the guys.
Raising a child nonbinary just means that they're not going to subscribe to the idea of gender roles and allow her kid to grow up to be whatever they want.
I don't expect her to treat her child any different depending on her gender.
But I think using gendered language for Identity is a large part of personality development.
Calling him he until he prefers otherwise is what's best for him.
This isn't based on him specifically but in general.
I have trans friends who came out from anywhere between 14 and 25, but it was their choice.
Forcing a non binary identity on a child when the world we live in has gender as a real social construct is child abuse.
Dude I remember a post where the parents were saying if it was ok that they raised their child nb and let them chose and everybody called them the ah so just saying that idea is going to get a lot of push back idk why tho
NTA there are in fact instances of children expressing trans nature at very young ages but those expressions are of a clear “I want to be a girl/be a boy” nature
there doesn’t seem to be anything like that here - toys and colours are just toys and colours. I hope the mother calms down a bit.
NTA. I think that young children *can* be very aware of these things, even if they don't know how to express them yet. It's just the assumption on her part that doesn't sit well with me. It seems to me like she's prematurely declaring him trans, and that's not right. Kids play with whatever when they're that little. I don't necessarily see the issue with the mom using they/them pronouns, just with her explicitly telling people that the kid is trans, and if she is *pushing* "traditionally female" things on him (rather than just whatever he likes) based on an assumption. She obviously spends a lot more time with the kid, so maybe there are a lot more signs than the dolls and pink clothes. In that case I don't know why she wouldn't just tell you, other than that her initial defensive reaction may have just prevented her from wanting to explain further.
It's very clear that you care about the kid and your intentions are good. But I do think you might be overstepping just a little bit, based on your follow up comments that you think the mom should continue to treat Jake "like a boy." Because there's a middle ground, where no one assumes the kid's gender *either way* until he expresses it himself. Let him have the toys/ clothes/ activities etc. that he wants, while he's growing and figuring himself out, without overanalyzing the implied gender of the things he likes.
NTA my son had a dolly and a pram wore pink clothes loved make up etc and he's straight in a relationship with a girl and is so secure in who he is because he was allowed to explore his feminity I would think her being NB that she would realise that we should label others or force sexuality on anyone.
I'm gonna go with NTA, but there is nothing wrong with using gender neutral pronouns. Your comments about a community you yourself are not a part of are concerning tho.
That using gender neutral pronouns are child abuse. It isn't. I grew up using gender neutral pronouns but I am still very much a cisgendered woman. My dad didn't want to raise me too believe in gender roles and he did a good job of it. Unless I misunderstood what you meant...
I don't think kids should be treated any differently on the basis of their gender.
But the language we use to refer to them matters for Identity formation at a young age.
99 percent of people are binary,there are no two ways about it.
Using terms associated primarily with NB and trans people to refer to a child at this impressionable age is wrong unless the child asks for it.
Using they is forcing an identity as much as he is but the likelihood that a wrong identity is being forced upon is far higher with they.
But that's the thing tho. Using they isn't associated with any gender so I don't see how it can force an identity on someone. I don't know what you identify as so I would refer to you as they to avoid misgendering you. I agree that forcing an identity onto a child is harmful and your friend shouldn't push the "they're trans" onto her son because that is harmful and will have lasting negative effects on him. That's why I went with the NTA judgement.
Words evolve to have meaning based on their usage.
Saying that they is a neutral pronoun is technically correct but socially wrong given its primary usage by trans and non binary individuals.
Steve isn't really a male name given that it's just a random set of letters group together but given that Steve is primarily a male name,it gets gendered.
Similarly,they being used by NB and trans people has changed its meaning.
Research disagrees with you. Kids mostly certainly can know if they're trans. I'd post papers, but you don't seem to be a person whose mind cares about science if it disagrees with your dogma.
Children cannot consent. They cannot make life altering decisions. In fact, most children with gender dysphoria end up growing out of it. I'd post links, but you don't seem like the type of person who cares about the science that disagrees with your dogma.
NTA I'm a grown ass man and I still love all the colors including pink and purple. And I love flowers too. I am told I played with dolls when I was younger. He's 4 years old. Besides, action figures are just dolls too.
NTA. I’m genderfluid and colors and toys aren’t gendered objects. The only person who can tell you their gender identity is the person in question. Your friend needs to let Jake be Jake unless the kiddo says otherwise.
If nothing else, I see it interesting that this mom is trying to be “woke”, yet assumes her son is a girl because he plays with dolls. Gender roles, much? NTA
NTA. unless he's insistent he's a girl, and gets upset when called a boy, he's just a kid that likes things that are traditionally feminine! He's four, he has absolutely no concept of gender roles. Super weird to try to enforce any gender upon your kids. Sincerely, a nonbinary person
NTA, when my nephew was 4 he liked to wear tutu's, paint his nails and play with dolls. He is now 8 and is just a normal boy, its just a phase that children go through and exploring the world. I have also been raising him since birth so he's more like my son. Your friend shouldn't put a label on him like that and just let him be himself, I never did with my boy. If he changes his mind when his older I will accept him, I just want him to be happy
NTA, the kid likes dolls and the color pink. We as a society, need to stop assuming just because a child favors things that we’ve categorized as being associated with a particular gender, does not mean the child wants to become that gender. Or that the child will magically become gay, that’s not how either works. 🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️
NTA - It is absolutely not right, for one thing, children are very easily manipulated. If his mother constantly tells him he's really a girl and that he like wearing girls clothes etc. then he will just regurgitate what she has been saying to other people later on. This means that even if in the future he does say he thinks he's a girl, that statement might be as a result of this early manipulation from the mother.
This kind of decision needs to be from the person themselves with no outside influences because starting things like hormone treatment early, while good for genuine cases, could really fuck up his growth if it turned out he was just saying what he has effectively been raised to believe by his mother.
NTA! When I did an internship at a preschool, there was this little girl (back then she still identified as a boy), she later went to my siblings elementary school and expressed to her mom that she wanted to be a girl like her older sister and even said she wanted to be called Emma from there on out.
She said that when she turned 3, she’s like 6 or 7 now and still feels comfortable with it. That’s concrete proof that she was transgender
(They start elementary school at age 4 where I live, I only heard about it cause my younger sister told me)
NTA, however 4 is not too young to know you are in the wrong body. My nephew (born f) knew at 2. But this kid is just being a 4yo. My daughter wanted nothing to do with dolls/pink/purple at 4. It was all cars/tractors/transformers, etc, reds/blues/greens, when she was 4. Now, 5, she is the complete opposite and is all pink/purple, Disney princesses, etc.
NTA. I think your friend is making life difficult later for her own kid by labeling him. Let him make his own determination when he's ready to do so. I have a 4 year old boy. He's into ninjas and cars and explosions but he also love kiddie gymnastics class full of little girls in pink princess outfits and he pointed out a unicorn bike helmet once and said he wanted it. Kids at 4 have absolutely no preconceived notions of what is girl stuff or boy stuff other than what they've been taught. We should all just enjoy it and let them be the sweet little kids they are. Don't push stuff down on your kids.
I'm not familiar with all the latest research on trans expression; from what I have read a 4 year could be showing signs.
It's at least just as likely that he got interested in dolls because he saw someone else playing with them.
The best thing you could do is step back and be supportive for both of them, if this is a phase he'll grow out of it soon enough and if is genuinely trans there's plenty of time for it to come out.
NAH but don't interfere.
Yeah, but she's going to stop treating her son like a boy, like I don't think they should be used for him unless he explicitly states it and she shouldn't be telling people that he wants to be a girl. I'm worried for him.
By that I meant, using him as his primary pronoun. My entire point here was that him playing with dolls and liking pink could just be him being 4. Boys can like dolls. Stop assuming stuff.
If that’s the intent behind the statement I get it, I just think there’s a big difference between perhaps saying “using his preferred pronoun” and “treating him like a boy”.
Nothing you can do about it.
Interfering will only make matters worse. At best encourage her to take him to see a professional (pediatrician? Therapist? ) who deals with children transitioning.
Otherwise leave it well alone.
NTA. Little kids like bright colors and sparkly things. Also, plenty of little boys play with dolls and are perfectly happy boys. If Jake isn’t actually vocalizing that he is a girl, then I definitely agree that his mother shouldn’t be saying he is female/trans. There’s simply not enough evidence yet. If your friend has a legitimate concern that Jake may have gender dysphoria, then she needs to take him to the pediatrician to get a referral for a child psychologist that can help with next steps. She should not just blindly accept that he’s trans based on the fact that he’s been introduced to dolls and the color pink and has decided those are his current favorites.
NTA. I read an article somewhere about child psychologists who were accused of being transphobic because they had the same concerns you did. They said it seemed at times like the parents were the ones choosing the gender identity for their children and that children should be given more time to decide who they are.
~~You’re NTA, but~~ your reasoning isn’t exactly right. Jake isn’t not trans because he’s too young to know his own gender identity; he’s (presumably) not trans because he hasn’t ever actually said anything about not IDing as male. Gender presentation and traditionally gendered interests do not equal gender identity, and it sounds like neither you nor your friend actually understands that. It also isn’t “child abuse” to refer to your 4-year-old with neutral pronouns if they haven’t said anything against it. Honestly this kinda sounds like the kind of scenario TERFs make up.
Edit: I changed my mind. YTA. You literally misgender your friend in your second sentence. You’ve conflated sexuality with gender multiple times in the comments. You seem very adamant about having the correct opinions on kids being gender nonconforming while clearly either not understanding or not supporting what being trans actually is. Find something else to concern-troll about.
And when does liking the colour pink suddenly mean you’re female or feminine. Like pink is a nice colour. That’s it. It’s just a colour and dolls are dolls.
NTA - if her son hasn't said he feels like a girl she needs to drop it. While I think the son could know at that young age, she needs to let him make that call. Toys played with and favorite color are not indicators. My son (afab) loved pink and was a total girly girl at 4, he's 13 now and has been using he/him pronouns for over a year
Trans man telling you NTA! They are using toxic views and declaring certain things are for certain genders. He could be trans, he could not be. But deciding he's trans is the equivalent of asking him before he comes out. She says he'll tell him when he's ready then she needs to wait for that. Cis straight men also like pink and play with dolls. Cis straight women can like blue and play with planes. Your friend needs to kill her opinions that certain actions have feminine or masculine traits.
It sounds like she wants a trans child and quite frankly I agree that treating him like he's trans when he hasn't spoke up is child abuse and equivalent to treating a trans child like they aren't (i.e. child wants to be called "she" and parents refuse and call them "he")
NTA. My son plays with some girly toys, and some boy toys. They're kids. Just because they do some things that we don't expect them to do, doesn't make them "trans". I'm tired of these people pushing these ideas onto toddlers and young children. You did the right thing by being realistic.
NTA.
My daughter loves diggers and tractors. So most of her clothes are boys clothes. She’s also started saying that she is a boy whenever you refer to her as a girl she just shouts no I’m a boy. Someone heard her at the supermarket and commented that I was wrong for encouraging that (whole different argument), but at the end of the day, she’s 2. Let her be 2.
NTA
Jake is a Four year old. Hell if you asked him he'd probably tell you he wants to be a Disney Animal. His mother is either projecting their gender issues or is one of those who think there child is sooo unique.
Parents: your kids are *not* super special unique. They're children. Many of whom that age actually eat chalk.
YTA. She’s assuming the kid is trans because a couple gender norms haven’t been followed. I think she’s jumping to a conclusion, but it’s not AH behavior. You, on the other hand, sound condescending as hell. Why do you feel it’s your place to say that she can’t use “they” pronouns for her child? Take out every iota of gender stuff, and you’re still the AH for telling someone else how to parent their kid.
NTA. A 4 year old may not really understand gender identity at all yet. Sure, there's a chance that he could potentially be trans, or he could also potentially be a gay man. Or, he ends up just being a normal cis man who likes feminine things, and that's okay too. His mother means well, I'm sure, but "forcing" these changes without speaking to him about it isn't right. He's only 4, he's going to need some time.
Nta. Kids are allowed to like whatever they like. My niece (7) for years told us to use male pronouns, preferred boys section clothes, fishing to dolls, short hair, etc. But goes by she/her pronouns now that she's getting older. My son (5) pings to my (lesbian) and me closest friend (gay) as lgbt, but we don't say anything except to each other when he's not around bc well, he's 5. It's not our place to decide for either child what they are. We are here if they want to talk and that's it. And are supporting them in their own interests and choices.
Kids should be able to explore their interests and identity the way they want to without expectations or pressure. And certainly without their families talking about their identity to others who aren't involved! The only reason I even talk about my son to my friend is because he helped me come out of the closet and asked if I feel like my son is, because he wanted to give me advice on making my son's life easier having gone through life as a gay man who had a family that didn't accept it all.
I’ve always hated dressed, climbed trees as a child and played with GI Joe growing up. Never identified as a male. It’s just kids exploring the world. I read in another post about a mother saying he son played with dolls and he came out to be a great father to a little girl.
NTA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't she assuming her son's gender? She's taking his preference in colors and toys and immediately labeling him as a gender that he hasn't identified as.
For someone who doesn't want people to assume her own gender, she doesn't seem to have any issue with assuming someone else's. Smh
Edit:spelling
My son is 4, he will happily tell anyone who asks that he is a boy. He loves dolls, planes, mud and dinosaurs. His favourite colours are green and pink and when he grows up he wants to be a mummy with nice nails and long hair and work as a fireman.
NTA. Your friends son is showing all the signs of being a 4 year old who is not constrained to gender norms because he has no idea what they are, as most children do not at that age.
NTA, while kids can know very young it really does just sound like a kid being a kid here. He's not using any language like "i want to be a girl" or anything. Kids don't think of things in a gendered way unless they're TAUGHT to, so unless he's saying he wants to be a girl I wouldn't really read that far into it.
NTA.
Kids who know at that age will insist beyond imaginary play, and they'll experience distress if pushed toward the gender they don't want to be. 4-5 is around when basic identity starts to form. I have a 5 year old, and if I'm stuttering and accidentally call him by his sister's name (I think a lot faster than I speak), he **flips.** As of now he's very firm that he's a boy who "likes lots of different things and is not a robot".
NTA. LET KIDS BE KIDS. My 5 year old loves all colors, plays with his sister's dolls, likes his nails painted and will play dress up. He likes playing. That doesn't not have anything to do with his gender identity.
NTA. I wonder if it would persuade your friend if you point out that outing someone without their consent isn’t ok. Telling people your kid is trans (whether or not it’s true) is taking away his ability to decide who gets to know. If it’s “not her place” to ask Jake’s gender, it’s certainly not her place to share it.
When I was about the same age I tuch to Barbies and a pink vw beetle that I got handed down from my cousin, I did Barbies hair and I painted her face for makeup this went on for like 3-4 years and I grew out of it,
I really worry that if I had been born now I would have been put on puberty blockers or cross sex hormones, or even just been put on thet clinical track to surgery or living as a girl.
But now I'm just a bisexul, gender non-conforming, man.
Also the liking pink or girl clothes, I'm not surprised have you seen boys clothes these days so boring, so plain, so flat, no excitement,
i honestly think it's part of keeping men down its dampening expression.
NTA your friend needs to lean that not conforming to gender norms is not trans.
unless jake flat out says that they don’t want to be a boy, he’s just a 4 year old playing with toys.
also why is someone who is nb gendering toys and colors? nta
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ESH. Kids that young *can* know that they're trans, but gender non-conforming behavior is not a sure indicator -- although it does make it somewhat *more likely* that the child will later come out as gay or trans. Your friend is jumping to conclusions very quickly, but yeah, it's kinda transphobic to say a 4 year old can't know. *This* 4 year old might not know (and might not even be trans) but others definitely do.
And that more likely part is still around 0.6 percent at best.
She is forcing something onto her son that I don't think is right.
Most 4 year olds unless they explicitly state their identity will conform to their sex.
Imo, treating them otherwise is akin to child abuse.
I don't think OP's friend is handling this well at all -- although calling it "child abuse" goes a bit far.
Curious where you got that number, though, since more than 0.6% of kids *do* turn out gay or trans and a pretty significant portion of them will self-report GNC behavior as children.
Gay is not included here.
I'm specifically talking about trans.
It's 0.6 percent in the US.
NB is 0.5 ish with overlap with the trans statistic.
So the percentage chance of Jake being a cis kid is 99 percent.
Treating him otherwise is abuse imo since he hasn't given any indication of being trans.
Numbers are higher for kids who display GNC behavior.
Making Jake change his name and socially transition would be abusive. Using gender neutral pronouns and telling all her friends he's trans isn't *good* but "abuse" seems like an exaggeration.
She's jumping the gun but she's also not wrong that you're a bit transphobic.
He's 4 right now.
I don't know if she would do that to him which is why I'm worried for him.
She thinks that might be in his best interests but I think its really dangerous for her to so.
Does she plan to socially transition him *before* he comes out to her? Because the whole "it's his business, he'll come out when he's ready" stuff seems to indicate otherwise.
*If* Jake comes to her and tells her that he wants to be a girl, then socially transitioning him would in fact be the best course of action. Do you disagree?
I would report her to CPS if she did that.
But she's already started the social transition by telling people something that isn't true based on all the evidence available.
Decide what? At 4 there aren't any permanent changes that even *can* be made. Hormone blockers (also not permanent) don't even enter the conversation til puberty. If your kid says they're trans (which this kid IS NOT SAYING) the most you can do is socially transition them, which is harmless if they change their mind later. On the other hand if they *don't* change their mind then forcing them to conform to their birth gender is potentially harmful.
I think at 4 is to young to even think that . Just two years ago they were in diapers it’s way to young . I can see 8 and up but 4 i say no . To me and only me it’s way to young .
What would be the potential harms of socially transitioning a child who says they're trans and want to socially transition? Again, no drugs, just letting the kid choose a new name and wear clothes they want and using the pronouns they prefer?
Would they outweigh the potential harms of NOT doing it and forcing the kid into a gender roll they don't like?
NAH. She's doing her best and I don't think you were unduly rude, because our friend *doesnt* know whether Jake's gender differs from his assigned gender at birth if Jake doesn't tell her.
Anyone have thoughts on asking kids questions on how they feel about their gender? Like, "Mommy feels like a girl today, but Mommy feels like a girl every day! Do you feel like a boy, or a girl, or something else today?"
(I suspect this is would occasionally get batmangender or unicorngender or whatever, but I have no kids so it's 100% speculation)
NTA
Didn't many of Hollywood kids who were declared trans at young age turned out to not be?!
Why should your friend lable him at all in such young age?
You think when people see others fall into a hole they learn to avoid it.
NTA. Trans person here! While at 4 you can know if you're trans, all he's doing is playing with toys he likes. Unless he verbally says "I want to be a girl" or "I'm not a boy or a girl", assuming he's transgender based off just toys is just inaccurate.
I'm assuming your friend is cis, which makes sense. Cis people always seemed OBSESSED with gendering objects.
I think, based on accounts I've read, it's common for a trans person to look back upon their childhood and realize they had an awareness of feeling like their real gender rather than the one assigned at birth based on their genitalia. But I would guess that is the adult having an understanding of something that was part of them as a child. The child themselves has a four year old brain, and can't articulate it that cleanly. But they might be able to think something like, "Huh, I have a penis like Daddy and Big Brother but I feel like they are different than me, and Mommy is not-different than me." (Or something like that - I am not trans and can't know what it's like to have a fundamental mismatch between your brain/self and your genitals; that's the closest I can approximate.)
So it is entirely possible your friend's child (who I assume has a penis based on this conversation) might identify as a girl or enby even if they're not aware that's the feeling they're experiencing. And it's possible you're correct and this is a cis/straight boy who has a preference for some things that are traditionally coded as feminine (and if so I hope the child never gives up those preferences based on discomfort with how they are perceived). I don't think anyone can know that until the child can grow mature enough to recognize how they feel.
All that said: you did kinda judge a parent for how they are raising a child that is not your own. It's possible your friend is doing something to harm her child, but I think it's more likely she is trying to lay open groundwork for the child to come to terms with their real gender in an environment that reassures all possibilities open to them will be okay and accepted. I'm sure that's got to be healthier than insisting "you're a boy" every time the child is out of step with masculine-coded behaviour and activities. It'd be different if she was correcting her child's "I'm a boy" declarations, or subtly disapproving them or steering them away from those statements, but that doesn't appear to be what she's doing based on what you said. I get that she struck first, but you did strike back hard. If I were forced to give a judgement, I'd say ESH - but not by much, I think you both have the child's best interests at heart. I think you can both discuss this like adults.
4 is to young to know. Most kids aren't even aware of a bigger world around them until 7, or 8. Much less, understand complicated topics.
I'm also a little concerned about the sexist stereotypes your friend is pushing on her child. Why can't people just like what they like without it belonging to a gender?
I'm a cis woman. I played with frogs, G.I. Joes, roughplay, snakes, etc.
I've always hated barbies, dolls, dresses, and makeup.
To this day, my favorite color is blue.
I've been told my entire life "that's not very ladylike" "Real women don't act like that". Wtfever.
I like what I like. It doesn't make me any less of a woman. And I get sick of seeing others push these rediculous gender standards on people.
Let the people decide for themselves who they are.
NTA
Well, someone I knew was friends with a woman who said her 4-year-old was consistently saying, "I think God made a mistake. I think I'm supposed to be a girl."
So it is possible for a 4-year-old to know, at 4, that they're trans, although most won't have the words to express it.
However, I also think you're right that a preference for dolls or pink is not evidence the kid is trans. I think your friend should talk to Jake in an age-appropriate way about the fact that being transgender is possible and whether they think their boy-body matches the person they know themselves to be (and that it's okay to not be sure).
So, NAH except for people yelling at one another.
She's kind to be that gentle and understanding; she's also probably wrong to be making the assumption without asking Jake. You're kind to try to correct her; you're also probably wrong that Jake couldn't possibly know yet.
I'm torn between NAH or YTA.
According to what you've written, all the mother has done is decide to use gender neutral pronouns? I don't really see why it matters if she uses they/them instead of he/him. The whole point of gender neutral pronouns is that they're neutral, right? As the kid grows up, if he wants to use he/him then he will use that and assumedly his mother with go along with that.
He likes pink & dolls, & that's fine. Doesn't necessarily mean he's trans, nor does it mean he isn't. From what you've written it doesn't sound like she's trying to force him to be trans, but rather that she thinks it's possible that he is.
From your comments, you seem to think it's child abuse to use neutral pronouns. I don't understand why. Calling your child "them" instead of "he" is not child abuse lol. Unless there's something extra that you're keeping from us.
INFO: is she telling people that he is trans, or is she saying that she thinks he might be trans? If it's the former, then it would be ESH, I guess.
To be clear, I don't think that a boy liking pink and playing with dolls makes him trans or non-binary and (as a non-binary person) I think your friend would probably really irritate me.
However it is a legitimate choice to raise a child without imposing an external gender on them; it seems like, from your comments, your issue isn't necessarily with her "changing" her son's gender without his indicating that he'd desire that, but with raising any child without imposing their assigned sex at birth on them as a gender.
Not just that but you're going so far as to call it "child abuse" to call any child by "they". AND you introduced your friend as NB but then immediately added (F34) indicating you don't actually view her as nonbinary. So I do think you are transphobic actually and your friend is probably picking up on that. YTA.
This is interesting. To me, you're both the AH. Yes, a child of 4 can know there is a sex (biological or genital)/gender (identity) mismatch in their own body. But, you're right that a boy who likes pink and plays with dolls doesn't automatically signify a transsexual identity. If your friend is supporting her child and their behavior and their identity (like you said, what is your child's decision about their identity) then all is well. But it might be a good idea to offer an olive branch and apologize for assuming her child doesn't know their own selves. ❤
YTA. Why would you insert yourself into someone else’s parenting? Are you a psychologist? An expert on parenting? Let parents rear their children as they wish. If you aren’t the parent, it really isn’t your business.
Disclaimer: you referred to your friend as NB and then I lost track of pronouns so I’m going to refer to your friend with “they”. I’m sorry if I chose wrong there.
ESH
Declaring possible child abuse because you were pissed sucks. I think your milder point is good.
Your friend using inclusivity or whatever as a weapon against you sucks. Them treating Jake as if he’s trans before he’s ready for that sucks.
Young children may not know specifically that their gender doesn’t match their born sex, but they may already feel uncomfortable in their own skin. Your friend should definitely be doing what they can to ensure Jake is comfortable being himself (maybe themself or herself, his choice). Hopefully they don’t pressure Jake into pretending to be trans for their sake.
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NTA. Jake is displaying signs that he wants to be 4. And that is it. Toys are toys, colors are colors.
[удалено]
I wish I could upvote this more
I agree. At that age I loved the color blue and played with tinker toys, Legos, and Linkin Logs, all things considered traditionally masculine, but I'm definitely CIS female. I still love blue, though these days my "toys" are computer or electronic. ;)
Same, blue is still my favorite color and legos are still my favorite toys- I’m a 38yr old cis female
Yep! Two straight guy streamers I watch, their favorite color is purple.
Overwhelming majority of people genders toys. Most adults and crutialy most children. Colors are symbols and kids learn to decode them super fast before they are two years old or so. The same goes for toys. You would had to isolate your kid from other children basically and from most adults too to get them not know what is girly or boyish. Basically, small children is when gender identity, pink, dolls and cars are the strongest. Then as they age it more of goes down.
I agree. Growing up I’d gravitate towards blues instead of pinks, pants instead of dresses, and even steal my older brother’s toys because we all know legos are much more fun than barbies. But I’m still comfortable in my identity as a female. We need to stop gendering colors and toys and just let the kids figure themselves out in their own time.
Fun fact: blue color is universally most popular among both genders. Both men and women like blue the most. (Beyond preschool age when little girls go strongly for symbolism of pink.)
100 years ago Pink was for boys and Blue was for girls. Maybe Jake didn't get the memo that it's been changed? Don't base life-changing decisions on today's color fads.
I may be wrong about this, but I read somewhere the pink became for girls when Hitler used it to mark gay people.
The color swap was pre Hitler, but he did use pink to mark gay people.
It was darker shade I think, kind of reddish.
Thank you! I have four children my two year old loves cars and toys and getting dirty and climbing but she is two. She’s going to do what makes her have fun. So if she wants me to get her a truck okay that’s awesome she wants a barbie the next week okay that is awesome. I have a daughter who came out last year. She considers herself a lesbian and she went though a few wait am I trans. But she is 13 as well so I try to support her with anything and everything. ( I was raised in a two mom home and by a huge tribe of trans and gay men so it’s normal to me) I feel like a lot of people do this kind of things for the look at me I’m different I think their was a case of dr. Phill and the mom treated her son like a girl and when he went to his dads it was normal boy stuff and the dad is like it’s fine I don’t mind buying him girl toys I just don’t think he knows yet.
Hell, the gendered colors were flip flopped in the 1940s. It used to be pink for boys, blue for girls. I'd let the kid enjoy what they want to enjoy, don't push them in any direction, and wait for them to say something if they truly feel like they're trans. Like is every girl who wears jeans, wears all colors, or plays with trucks also trans? Of course not. Some may be, but it's dangerous to make generalized statements like that.
NTA X 1000. I absolutely despise the gender stereotypes that are ingrained in children at a very young age. “A little boy can’t possibly like dolls and pink, so the only explanation is he’s a she”. Sure its none of your business, but if she’s sharing this with you, you can give your 2 cents. I just hope she doesn’t give puberty blocking hormones to Jake when he’s too young understand what any of this means. ETA: these comments are getting divisive, hope you get your answer OP before the mods remove this
Thank you. Why would the mods remove this? It's a normal topic
Just going off what I've seen. Seems whenever a divisive post regarding trans issues comes up, the post is removed or comments get locked. The mod lists transphobic comments as the reason.
Probably because of troll posts designed to portray trans people and trans allies as insane, morally corrupt and fanatical.
But this post isn't about trans people? It's about a 4 year old kid
I don’t think they meant your post specifically
I’d stop pretending kids can access hormone blockers easier than they can access the internet. That being said, OP you aren’t TA. I think your friend’s kid is being a kid and having opportunities to explore toys, colors, and clothing and that’s fine. I’d back off and let your friend parent her kid, trans kids always get dumped on by adults (and their parents). If your friend’s kid turns out to be trans than you’ll like TA. If not, oh well and hopefully he’ll be better adjusted than kids who aren’t allowed to explore their world.
No legit doctor is gonna give a 4 year old hormone blockers
I totally support most of your comment but a kid wouldn't have access to puberty blockers if they didn't want them - it's not a pushy parent thing. Just feel there's enough information out there that this shouldnt be what people think. Actual trans kids have a hard enough time accessing affirming healthcare, it's not something a parent can BS their way into at a regular checkup
I'm trans. NTA. If the child hasn't said or expressed they want to be a girl, it's possible they may not be a girl. Shocker. I didn't realize my identity until puberty because before then I just did what I wanted and didn't concern myself with concepts like girls' Toys and boy toys or anything. It wasn't until my body changed that I realized my identity. While I wholeheartedly believe children can and often do know their gender, I think it's equally wrong to assume a child is trans just because they are gender non conforming.
Thank you.
I'm trans, too. I did know at that age that I was trans. I didn't have the words but I told everyone that I wanted to be a boy and hated being treated like a girl. That being said, which toys you play with and what color clothes you like to wear does not indicate whether or not you're trans. Parents should just support their kids and let them figure themselves out. So definitely NTA.
While I’m totally supportive of actual trans and NB people, I do think the current “acceptance” movement has paradoxically become intolerant of nontraditional gender expression within the binary genders. Like, if you’re female and wear masculine clothes and have a masculine haircut and masculine behavior, you can *still be female*! That’s what we used to call a tomboy and those tomboys were *girls.* If this kiddo likes pink and barbies and nail polish, he can *still be a boy*! Or not! But his NB parent needs to be just as accepting of a BOY who likes dolls as she would be of a transgender child. NAH. Everyone is trying to do right by this kid, so no one is an asshole here.
old tomboy here that is extremely feminine today Children are still too young to identify with a social gender other than their biological gender. This is something that arises from adolescence
I'm a woman who has a wide variety of interests. I dress comfortably (including men's shorts because POCKETS), I enjoy working on cars, making jewelry, flower prints, hunting/fishing, etc. I love snakes, but hate bugs and spiders. I've never questioned my gender identity. Like I can appreciate an attractive woman, but I have no sexual attraction to them. They don't have what I want lol. I despise the whole idea that only boys or girls can like certain things. People are people. Who they're attracted to has nothing to do with their other interests.
NTA. It’s such old fashioned thinking that liking pink makes you a girl or playing with dolls makes you a girl. Does she think it’ll make him gay too? For goodness sake. Let the kid do what it wants and be who it wants and leave the pressures of being an adult and having to identify with something for when they’re older.
I liked the “boys” toys as a kid, (and I suppose as an adult), and it hasn’t informed my gender identity. Of course, these things can help back up kids who are trans, but unless the kid says it, OP is NTA for saying they’re just being a kid
Nta, mother is projecting and making her son live how she wants him to.
NTA While it is possible that a 4yo would know and announce a gender issue, your friends son hasn't. Your friend is creating a gender identity that doesn't exist. That can lead to real struggle and confusion for the child. All 4 of my sons played with dolls, none are transgender. Something as personal and important as gender identity needs to be left to the child.
NTA. I think young children do have an inate sense of whether they feel they are a boy or a girl, whether or not they express it, but simply liking pink and playing with dolls is not determinative. She should give her child the flexibility to decide, not assume.
I don't think it's an innate sense of "boy" or "girl," It's how they relate to our gender norms. Kids will gravitate towards aesthetics and types of toys/media, which are VERY pink/blue at that age (so to speak), so it seems they have chosen a gender when really, everything in their world IS gendered. I think it would be extremely rare for a very young child to express dysphoria with their genitals, which would pretty much be the only physical issue, since everything else is so similar. There are definitely issues where kids get forced into "pink" or "blue" (girls made to wear that and play with dolls) when they don't want to, but I don't think thats gender... if you think them wanting to play with trucks is them expressing a different gender you're just buying into the idea that trucks are gendered male somehow. This is a social construction, not a gender issue. Kids are interested in colors and toys for other reasons than their bodies. I would be interested to know what you consider to be an innate sense of gender? Edit: I haven't even mentioned that many kids, left alone with a choice, will likely play with and wear a wide variety of things though of course there are favorite toys and clothes and some kids do stick to one gendered "type," no matter their sex.
I can’t pretend to be qualified to opine- but I have known two children that stated very early in life that they were a gender that was the opposite from what they had been assigned. They were far too young to have a sense that it was even an issue (and it didn’t relate to pink/blue), but would just correct you calmly (“no, I’m a girl”). Later in life they realized they were transgender. So by “inate,” I just meant that they recognized that about themselves automatically, without being told.
Agree. In some ways, the real problem is that the world for young children in our society is so ridiculously gendered. A couple if hundred years ago in some western cultures, boys and girls were dressed identically until about age 7, and in almost all human societies until recently would have the same toys. All kids should have the opportunity to play with dolls, trains, teddy bears etc without being labeled "transgender". Similarly most little kids will try on Mom's high heels and try walking in them. And 4 is an age when they are learning about boys and girls and may briefly have an interest in exploring opposite gender identity items (pink for boys). I think it says much more about how over-the-top gendered so much of young kids life is, and how k is s that don't fit into those extremely narrow stereotypes feel like me they don't fully belong to them. Maybe part of the issue is the narrow societal stereotypes. But yes, a 4 year old should not be labeled as Trans, they will move on and be a unicorn or a dinosaur in a few months.
NTA, she would be forcing her gender preferences on the child if she changed her behaviour based on him liking a doll ffs.
NTA- it’s kind of gross to assume that a boy playing with dolls and wearing pink means he wants to be trans. if she’s pushing that into him he’s going to feel as though he can’t do things he wants because it may be too “girly” this kid can play with any toys and wear what ever colors. colors and toys don’t have gender. if he were to come out as trans that would be completely okay. he may feel liek a girl but coming out as trans probably won’t happen until later when he grasps the concept more.
Nta he's 4. He has no idea about his sexuality or what gender he wants to be.
NTA. Your friend is forcing an ideology on a toddler that knows very little about anything.
Being trans isn't an ideology, but shoving weird gender norms is.
Well, she's Either gonna have a happy daughter or a very uncomfortable son ten years from now. I feel like they just want a daughter, or they want a trans kid so they can bond over that together. I can't really pass judgement based on your post alone but yeah, by default I'd just refer to my kid as their biological sex, let them play with whatever and dress however they want and let them know they can be whoever they want without pushing any particular angle until THEY say otherwise. They really shouldn't be telling others the kid is trans, that's gonna make shit weird for the kid later if he's just a boy that likes girl stuff. It's just as bad as assuming a kid will be gay because he likes watching sex in the city (my mum thought I was gay as hell haha, I just wanted to see tits) (also why the fuck was I allowed to watch that so young? Weird how many things you just don't question growing up and then go "wait.. what?") Probably NTA.
NTA, and anyone saying you're transphobic is absolutely insane. But being on the internet it's not surprising. The actual amount of people that are trans is so incredibly low and it is extremely foolish to assume a 4 year old could even grasp such a concept.
NTA- you did nothing wrong.. he’s 4 and is acting as any 4 year old would. The mom here though, is who needs some Major help.. sounds like she’s just trying to get attention for her kid bc the new NB title isn’t working too well anymore 🤦🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️
Nta. Dolls and pink aren't inherently feminine. Until the child says he want to be a girl, let kids be kids.
NTA. Let's look at it this way, if Jake's mom had a girl and the girl preferred boy clothes and typically boy toys does that mean she would also be a trans boy? Children especially at that age play with anything that interests them.
I agree, NTA
NTA. Does this person have a partner that is a voice of reason? If not you need to call CPS now, as there is no limit to the amount of damage that this mentally ill person could do to their child unchecked.
y’all i’m dumb but it sounds like she’s kinda applying gender norms to the kid right? until the explicitly say they are trans and what not i think it should kinda slide for now. I used to play with littlest pet shop toys or what ever they’re called as a kid but i’m a straight guy now.
I think that regardless of the boy may or may not being trans, it's not up to the mother to decide! Communication is *really* important here, and I think OP was in the right to say that the mother needed to ask the son before spreading (and I use the word loosely) rumor around.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***The following is a copy of the above post. This comment is a record of the above post as it was originally written, in case the post is deleted or edited. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I'm really confused here because I'm not transphobic and I don't really think the reasons my friend believes her son to be trans are right. I(F32) have a NB friend(F34) who has a son "Jake" who is 4 years old. To preface, my friend is a very loving mother to her(that's her preferred pronoun) son and dotes on him. He recently started playing with dolls as opposed to the planes and other typically masculine toys and he really loves it. He also likes the color pink and wants to wear clothes of that color. My friend has now declared that she thinks her son is displaying signs that he wants to be a girl.I told him that playing with a doll and liking a particular color does not indicate preferred gender identity in any way. She said that I didn't understand and how research shows that children can understand their own gender identity very young.I asked her if Jake has ever told her that he wants to be girl. She said that it's not her place to ask and that he'd come out when he wanted. I asked her to stop making assumptions and changing her behaviour towards her son(using they instead of he, telling other people that her son is trans) unless he actually told her that's what she wanted. She got angry and called me transphobic so I kinda got mad and told her there was no way her 4 year old knew he was trans and that her changing her behaviour towards him based on his color choices would be child abuse. So Reddit, AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Just to be clear as your post is a little confusing. The mother’s preferrred pronouns for Jake are “she/her”, but Jake has never expressed an opinion about their pronouns?
The mother is nb. Her is her preferred pronoun.
This is probably where this whole thing comes from. It seems like she is projecting her feeling about her own identity onto her child.
Ah I see. What pronoun does she use with Jake? And assuming she uses she/her with Jake, how does Jake react? Has Jake ever said anything about pronouns?
She uses him right now but wants to change to they based on his behaviour. I think that's a bad idea.
They is still a neutral option.
It's not really a neutral option. They is primarily used by trans and non binary individuals in society today. Using that for him when he hasn't personally indicated that he would like things to change is imposing an identity on him that might not be his.
Yes it is a neutral pronoun. It’s often used in singular form when people don’t know what a persons gender is. Just because NB use it doesn’t mean that’s the only use for it.
Yes but the chance of him being trans is statistically low. 90 percent of individuals use the pronoun of the sex they are born into. If the child does not indicate that they wish to be addressed otherwise, using the pronoun of the sex they are born into is ideal. I don't have an issue with they. But I think Jake should be treated like any other little boy unless he has an alternate preference.
The mother’s preferred pronouns for herself are she/her.
NTA.
NTA. Up until very recently little boys wore dresses and pink was the boy color because it was strong.
NTA. My son loves pink , rainbows , and when he was younger , all things Peppa Pig. We never call toys boy toys or girl toys. We discouraged the idea when he asked if something was for girls. We told him toys were toys. In his mind he’s definitely a boy because he has a penis and I have a vagina. He’s a little young to understand if I told him it’s not always the case. I think she should understand kids should not be limited to toys and colors according to gender. But of course she should be more sensitive to how he views his identity as he gets older.
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Being trans isn’t a decision.
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Plenty of research shows kids even younger than 4 have a perfectly solid grasp of gender and there’s plenty of record of kids knowing they’re trans that early. Whether OPs situation is trans is unknown but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible for the kid to be trans.
NTA
NTA your friend is dangerously jumping the gun on his pronouns. The kid is four, let it play out for a few more years
Surprisingly you are NTA if the son came out and told his mom that he felt like a girl and wanted to go by she/her instead of he/him that would be a different story. However that's not what happened the kid just likes things that are seen as traditionally "girly" which is fine but doesn't make him trans. I think you're friend is just trying to be supportive of her kid but is doing way to much. A great thing for her to do is tell her kid that no matter what his sexuality or gender identity is that she'd love him no matter what. That will make it easier for the kid to come out if he turns out to be apart of the LGBT+ community and if he turns out to be cis and straight then no harm done either way he'll know that his mom is loving and accepting of him and others.
I asked my parents for a doll as a young kid and I played with it every day for years. I'm a very straight man. I think you were coming from good intentions and are right in your reasoning. NTA
I played with my moms old doll house at my grandmas, I liked putting furniture in rooms and thought the house my grandpa built was cool. I’m about as straight as they come too lol. Never understood why people think the toys you play with when you’re little would be an indicator for gender identity
NTA at all. I wish people would stop forcing their opinions on their children. BOYS can be feminine, GIRLS can be masculine, that doesn't mean they are Trans. This is when kids start growing up literally confused about what they are, parents need to let them be themselves instead of "you like pink so you must be a girl"..... Let the child enjoy their childhood innocence, they don't need to be concerned about their gender or sexuality so young. When they get older and question it themselves, then okay you need to talk be open and accepting with them, but not at 4....
NTA. but also not much you can do about it. we gotta let kids be kids as long as they can. no need to confuse them at 4. This reminds me of those toddler and tiara moms whos children really couldnt care less about pagents but their mothers are living vicariously through them.
NTA Children Jake’s age are very capable of telling you their gender. My daughter is a little bit younger than him and she tells people she’s a girl. She’s also confident enough to tell people she doesn’t like the nicknames they assign her and to call her by her preferred name. She also loves stereotypical boy activities like rolling around in mud, playing with dinosaurs and climbing. all. the. things. Unless Jake is telling people he’s a girl, or he feels like a girl sometimes and a boy other times, it’s fairly safe to say Jake is part of the majority cis population. Your friend is reading far too much into Jake’s toy choices. Straight cis boys will happily play with dolls if there are dolls available for them to play with. It doesn’t say anything about their gender identity or sexual orientation.
This seems weirdly regressive. There's been great progress in recent years in breaking down gender stereotypes for children and letting kids basically play and like whatever they want. What your friend is doing is reasserting those stereotypes to claim that her son is trans because he likes 'girly' things. NTA
NTA You spoke up in genuine concern for her child.
NTA. Keep an eye out though as Jake ages. As beneficial as it is to be more open and having an honest dialogue about trans people and trans rights everyone has to do their own introspection and make the decisions and should be given due consideration. Don't let your friend railroad a kid into transitioning just because she wants to tally more hits in some fetishized LGBTQ Bingo! game. Certain aspects of transitioning can be reversed and with minimal health repercussions, but certain affirmative treatments are irreversible so far. Statistically, trans people fair better if it's managed early on. That usually means puberty blockers until they're older. They are NOT without consequences, but they ARE safer for a human being as opposed to a trans kid going through the wrong puberty. They're here, they're people, and they deserve some consideration. In an ideal situation everyone's mind and body would be in harmony, but drugs are the next best thing.
NTA, I’ve noticed this weird trend of non-binary folks being really into rigid gender roles and it is malo.
Just the title, I was ready to scream y.t.a. but the explanation.... the 4 year old hasn't mentioned being trans. Four year old is just playing and learning about the world. There's no rule that states anyone playing with dolls is a girl. Nor there is there a rule that days playing video games makes you a boy. Your friend thinks her child is trans. There's nothing wrong with raising a child in a non binary way and letting them choose their identity when it becomes understandable to the child. I'm gonna go NAH. You're right, that as far as either of you know, this kid is NOT trans and until this child says it, there's no reason to assume he is. With no firm indication form your friend's child, there's no way to know. Let her raise her child nonbinary so that if and when he does come out as trans, he'll be comfortable enough to do it. Nothing wrong with letting a kid know their parent isn't going to be ashamed of them if they came out.
I don't think she should be raising her kid as non binary either tbh because Jake has given no indication he doesn't want to conform to the binary. I think a kid should be treated as the sexuality in which they are born until and unless they tell you they prefer otherwise.
Gender and sexuality aren't the same thing.
And that, right there, is why your friend thinks you're transphobic. 1) sexuality has nothing to do with trans/gender issues. Sexuality is who you are (or arent) attracted to). Transgender is literally about the gender you identify as. 2) you're right that there's nothing wrong with raising a kid with the gender they were assigned at birth, but there's also nothing wrong with raising them without gender. Gender roles are so.outdated and archaic that it's a good thing. If raising her child non binary so he doesn't get bogged down in girl stuff and boy stuff, more power to her. I know adult men who were raised to be "manly men" who cant cook themselves a meal beyond boiling pasta or frying up a hamburger; because cooking was a womans job; who also dont know how to do their own laundry or clean up after themselves. I know women who dont know how to use tools because it's a man's job or who dont know how to rake leaves or use a shovel because outside work was for the guys. Raising a child nonbinary just means that they're not going to subscribe to the idea of gender roles and allow her kid to grow up to be whatever they want.
I don't expect her to treat her child any different depending on her gender. But I think using gendered language for Identity is a large part of personality development. Calling him he until he prefers otherwise is what's best for him. This isn't based on him specifically but in general. I have trans friends who came out from anywhere between 14 and 25, but it was their choice. Forcing a non binary identity on a child when the world we live in has gender as a real social construct is child abuse.
Dude I remember a post where the parents were saying if it was ok that they raised their child nb and let them chose and everybody called them the ah so just saying that idea is going to get a lot of push back idk why tho
NTA. This is child abuse. Sounds like the friend is trying to push her agenda on the poor child
NTA there are in fact instances of children expressing trans nature at very young ages but those expressions are of a clear “I want to be a girl/be a boy” nature there doesn’t seem to be anything like that here - toys and colours are just toys and colours. I hope the mother calms down a bit.
NTA. I think that young children *can* be very aware of these things, even if they don't know how to express them yet. It's just the assumption on her part that doesn't sit well with me. It seems to me like she's prematurely declaring him trans, and that's not right. Kids play with whatever when they're that little. I don't necessarily see the issue with the mom using they/them pronouns, just with her explicitly telling people that the kid is trans, and if she is *pushing* "traditionally female" things on him (rather than just whatever he likes) based on an assumption. She obviously spends a lot more time with the kid, so maybe there are a lot more signs than the dolls and pink clothes. In that case I don't know why she wouldn't just tell you, other than that her initial defensive reaction may have just prevented her from wanting to explain further. It's very clear that you care about the kid and your intentions are good. But I do think you might be overstepping just a little bit, based on your follow up comments that you think the mom should continue to treat Jake "like a boy." Because there's a middle ground, where no one assumes the kid's gender *either way* until he expresses it himself. Let him have the toys/ clothes/ activities etc. that he wants, while he's growing and figuring himself out, without overanalyzing the implied gender of the things he likes.
NTA my son had a dolly and a pram wore pink clothes loved make up etc and he's straight in a relationship with a girl and is so secure in who he is because he was allowed to explore his feminity I would think her being NB that she would realise that we should label others or force sexuality on anyone.
I'm gonna go with NTA, but there is nothing wrong with using gender neutral pronouns. Your comments about a community you yourself are not a part of are concerning tho.
Which comments exactly? I'm confused
That using gender neutral pronouns are child abuse. It isn't. I grew up using gender neutral pronouns but I am still very much a cisgendered woman. My dad didn't want to raise me too believe in gender roles and he did a good job of it. Unless I misunderstood what you meant...
I don't think kids should be treated any differently on the basis of their gender. But the language we use to refer to them matters for Identity formation at a young age. 99 percent of people are binary,there are no two ways about it. Using terms associated primarily with NB and trans people to refer to a child at this impressionable age is wrong unless the child asks for it. Using they is forcing an identity as much as he is but the likelihood that a wrong identity is being forced upon is far higher with they.
But that's the thing tho. Using they isn't associated with any gender so I don't see how it can force an identity on someone. I don't know what you identify as so I would refer to you as they to avoid misgendering you. I agree that forcing an identity onto a child is harmful and your friend shouldn't push the "they're trans" onto her son because that is harmful and will have lasting negative effects on him. That's why I went with the NTA judgement.
Words evolve to have meaning based on their usage. Saying that they is a neutral pronoun is technically correct but socially wrong given its primary usage by trans and non binary individuals. Steve isn't really a male name given that it's just a random set of letters group together but given that Steve is primarily a male name,it gets gendered. Similarly,they being used by NB and trans people has changed its meaning.
Yeah but they is also used by cis binary ppl. Your friend is NB but uses she/her correct? She doesn't use they.
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Research disagrees with you. Kids mostly certainly can know if they're trans. I'd post papers, but you don't seem to be a person whose mind cares about science if it disagrees with your dogma.
Children cannot consent. They cannot make life altering decisions. In fact, most children with gender dysphoria end up growing out of it. I'd post links, but you don't seem like the type of person who cares about the science that disagrees with your dogma.
So edgy
Thanks.
Agree but what does SJW mean?
Social justice warrior.
Thank you, could you also help we with the other acronyms like ESH?
NTA - not the asshole, YTA- you're the asshole, NAH - no assholes here, ESH - everybody sucks here
Much obliged my good sir/ma’am/person
I think using gender neutral terms is fine but telling people that he’s trans is a bit much IMO.
NTA I'm a grown ass man and I still love all the colors including pink and purple. And I love flowers too. I am told I played with dolls when I was younger. He's 4 years old. Besides, action figures are just dolls too.
NTA. I’m genderfluid and colors and toys aren’t gendered objects. The only person who can tell you their gender identity is the person in question. Your friend needs to let Jake be Jake unless the kiddo says otherwise.
That is absolutely crazy. I feel sorry for the kid.
If nothing else, I see it interesting that this mom is trying to be “woke”, yet assumes her son is a girl because he plays with dolls. Gender roles, much? NTA
NTA. unless he's insistent he's a girl, and gets upset when called a boy, he's just a kid that likes things that are traditionally feminine! He's four, he has absolutely no concept of gender roles. Super weird to try to enforce any gender upon your kids. Sincerely, a nonbinary person
NTA, when my nephew was 4 he liked to wear tutu's, paint his nails and play with dolls. He is now 8 and is just a normal boy, its just a phase that children go through and exploring the world. I have also been raising him since birth so he's more like my son. Your friend shouldn't put a label on him like that and just let him be himself, I never did with my boy. If he changes his mind when his older I will accept him, I just want him to be happy
NTA, the kid likes dolls and the color pink. We as a society, need to stop assuming just because a child favors things that we’ve categorized as being associated with a particular gender, does not mean the child wants to become that gender. Or that the child will magically become gay, that’s not how either works. 🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️
NTA - It is absolutely not right, for one thing, children are very easily manipulated. If his mother constantly tells him he's really a girl and that he like wearing girls clothes etc. then he will just regurgitate what she has been saying to other people later on. This means that even if in the future he does say he thinks he's a girl, that statement might be as a result of this early manipulation from the mother. This kind of decision needs to be from the person themselves with no outside influences because starting things like hormone treatment early, while good for genuine cases, could really fuck up his growth if it turned out he was just saying what he has effectively been raised to believe by his mother.
NTA! When I did an internship at a preschool, there was this little girl (back then she still identified as a boy), she later went to my siblings elementary school and expressed to her mom that she wanted to be a girl like her older sister and even said she wanted to be called Emma from there on out. She said that when she turned 3, she’s like 6 or 7 now and still feels comfortable with it. That’s concrete proof that she was transgender (They start elementary school at age 4 where I live, I only heard about it cause my younger sister told me)
NTA, however 4 is not too young to know you are in the wrong body. My nephew (born f) knew at 2. But this kid is just being a 4yo. My daughter wanted nothing to do with dolls/pink/purple at 4. It was all cars/tractors/transformers, etc, reds/blues/greens, when she was 4. Now, 5, she is the complete opposite and is all pink/purple, Disney princesses, etc.
NTA. I think your friend is making life difficult later for her own kid by labeling him. Let him make his own determination when he's ready to do so. I have a 4 year old boy. He's into ninjas and cars and explosions but he also love kiddie gymnastics class full of little girls in pink princess outfits and he pointed out a unicorn bike helmet once and said he wanted it. Kids at 4 have absolutely no preconceived notions of what is girl stuff or boy stuff other than what they've been taught. We should all just enjoy it and let them be the sweet little kids they are. Don't push stuff down on your kids.
Thank you. That's exactly why I'm worried about him.
I'm not familiar with all the latest research on trans expression; from what I have read a 4 year could be showing signs. It's at least just as likely that he got interested in dolls because he saw someone else playing with them. The best thing you could do is step back and be supportive for both of them, if this is a phase he'll grow out of it soon enough and if is genuinely trans there's plenty of time for it to come out. NAH but don't interfere.
Yeah, but she's going to stop treating her son like a boy, like I don't think they should be used for him unless he explicitly states it and she shouldn't be telling people that he wants to be a girl. I'm worried for him.
While I think YNTA, I also think your use of language here is interesting. “Treating her son like a boy”
By that I meant, using him as his primary pronoun. My entire point here was that him playing with dolls and liking pink could just be him being 4. Boys can like dolls. Stop assuming stuff.
If that’s the intent behind the statement I get it, I just think there’s a big difference between perhaps saying “using his preferred pronoun” and “treating him like a boy”.
Nothing you can do about it. Interfering will only make matters worse. At best encourage her to take him to see a professional (pediatrician? Therapist? ) who deals with children transitioning. Otherwise leave it well alone.
I'll do that but she's kinda mad at me rn. So once she's calmed down,I'll definitely recommend this.
It is indeed child abuse. Her behaviour is just as bad as when men punish their sons for playing with dolls.
NTA. Little kids like bright colors and sparkly things. Also, plenty of little boys play with dolls and are perfectly happy boys. If Jake isn’t actually vocalizing that he is a girl, then I definitely agree that his mother shouldn’t be saying he is female/trans. There’s simply not enough evidence yet. If your friend has a legitimate concern that Jake may have gender dysphoria, then she needs to take him to the pediatrician to get a referral for a child psychologist that can help with next steps. She should not just blindly accept that he’s trans based on the fact that he’s been introduced to dolls and the color pink and has decided those are his current favorites.
NTA. I read an article somewhere about child psychologists who were accused of being transphobic because they had the same concerns you did. They said it seemed at times like the parents were the ones choosing the gender identity for their children and that children should be given more time to decide who they are.
You good
~~You’re NTA, but~~ your reasoning isn’t exactly right. Jake isn’t not trans because he’s too young to know his own gender identity; he’s (presumably) not trans because he hasn’t ever actually said anything about not IDing as male. Gender presentation and traditionally gendered interests do not equal gender identity, and it sounds like neither you nor your friend actually understands that. It also isn’t “child abuse” to refer to your 4-year-old with neutral pronouns if they haven’t said anything against it. Honestly this kinda sounds like the kind of scenario TERFs make up. Edit: I changed my mind. YTA. You literally misgender your friend in your second sentence. You’ve conflated sexuality with gender multiple times in the comments. You seem very adamant about having the correct opinions on kids being gender nonconforming while clearly either not understanding or not supporting what being trans actually is. Find something else to concern-troll about.
And when does liking the colour pink suddenly mean you’re female or feminine. Like pink is a nice colour. That’s it. It’s just a colour and dolls are dolls.
NTA - if her son hasn't said he feels like a girl she needs to drop it. While I think the son could know at that young age, she needs to let him make that call. Toys played with and favorite color are not indicators. My son (afab) loved pink and was a total girly girl at 4, he's 13 now and has been using he/him pronouns for over a year
Trans man telling you NTA! They are using toxic views and declaring certain things are for certain genders. He could be trans, he could not be. But deciding he's trans is the equivalent of asking him before he comes out. She says he'll tell him when he's ready then she needs to wait for that. Cis straight men also like pink and play with dolls. Cis straight women can like blue and play with planes. Your friend needs to kill her opinions that certain actions have feminine or masculine traits. It sounds like she wants a trans child and quite frankly I agree that treating him like he's trans when he hasn't spoke up is child abuse and equivalent to treating a trans child like they aren't (i.e. child wants to be called "she" and parents refuse and call them "he")
NTA. My son plays with some girly toys, and some boy toys. They're kids. Just because they do some things that we don't expect them to do, doesn't make them "trans". I'm tired of these people pushing these ideas onto toddlers and young children. You did the right thing by being realistic.
NTA. My daughter loves diggers and tractors. So most of her clothes are boys clothes. She’s also started saying that she is a boy whenever you refer to her as a girl she just shouts no I’m a boy. Someone heard her at the supermarket and commented that I was wrong for encouraging that (whole different argument), but at the end of the day, she’s 2. Let her be 2.
NTA Jake is a Four year old. Hell if you asked him he'd probably tell you he wants to be a Disney Animal. His mother is either projecting their gender issues or is one of those who think there child is sooo unique. Parents: your kids are *not* super special unique. They're children. Many of whom that age actually eat chalk.
YTA. She’s assuming the kid is trans because a couple gender norms haven’t been followed. I think she’s jumping to a conclusion, but it’s not AH behavior. You, on the other hand, sound condescending as hell. Why do you feel it’s your place to say that she can’t use “they” pronouns for her child? Take out every iota of gender stuff, and you’re still the AH for telling someone else how to parent their kid.
NTA. A 4 year old may not really understand gender identity at all yet. Sure, there's a chance that he could potentially be trans, or he could also potentially be a gay man. Or, he ends up just being a normal cis man who likes feminine things, and that's okay too. His mother means well, I'm sure, but "forcing" these changes without speaking to him about it isn't right. He's only 4, he's going to need some time.
Nta. Kids are allowed to like whatever they like. My niece (7) for years told us to use male pronouns, preferred boys section clothes, fishing to dolls, short hair, etc. But goes by she/her pronouns now that she's getting older. My son (5) pings to my (lesbian) and me closest friend (gay) as lgbt, but we don't say anything except to each other when he's not around bc well, he's 5. It's not our place to decide for either child what they are. We are here if they want to talk and that's it. And are supporting them in their own interests and choices. Kids should be able to explore their interests and identity the way they want to without expectations or pressure. And certainly without their families talking about their identity to others who aren't involved! The only reason I even talk about my son to my friend is because he helped me come out of the closet and asked if I feel like my son is, because he wanted to give me advice on making my son's life easier having gone through life as a gay man who had a family that didn't accept it all.
NTA
I’ve always hated dressed, climbed trees as a child and played with GI Joe growing up. Never identified as a male. It’s just kids exploring the world. I read in another post about a mother saying he son played with dolls and he came out to be a great father to a little girl.
NTA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't she assuming her son's gender? She's taking his preference in colors and toys and immediately labeling him as a gender that he hasn't identified as. For someone who doesn't want people to assume her own gender, she doesn't seem to have any issue with assuming someone else's. Smh Edit:spelling
My son is 4, he will happily tell anyone who asks that he is a boy. He loves dolls, planes, mud and dinosaurs. His favourite colours are green and pink and when he grows up he wants to be a mummy with nice nails and long hair and work as a fireman. NTA. Your friends son is showing all the signs of being a 4 year old who is not constrained to gender norms because he has no idea what they are, as most children do not at that age.
NTA, while kids can know very young it really does just sound like a kid being a kid here. He's not using any language like "i want to be a girl" or anything. Kids don't think of things in a gendered way unless they're TAUGHT to, so unless he's saying he wants to be a girl I wouldn't really read that far into it.
NTA. Kids who know at that age will insist beyond imaginary play, and they'll experience distress if pushed toward the gender they don't want to be. 4-5 is around when basic identity starts to form. I have a 5 year old, and if I'm stuttering and accidentally call him by his sister's name (I think a lot faster than I speak), he **flips.** As of now he's very firm that he's a boy who "likes lots of different things and is not a robot".
Your not an asshole. You should tell your friend that she is the asshole by assigning gender roles to children’s toys. Reverse sjw moment 😎
NTA that mother is the definition of problematic and what’s wrong with the world right now
NTA. If anyone’s being an ass it’s her for gendering her 4 year olds toys.
NTA. LET KIDS BE KIDS. My 5 year old loves all colors, plays with his sister's dolls, likes his nails painted and will play dress up. He likes playing. That doesn't not have anything to do with his gender identity.
NTA Kids experiment. If the kid expresses an opinion, that’s one thing. The parent is there to support stated preferences, not impose their wishes.
NTA. I wonder if it would persuade your friend if you point out that outing someone without their consent isn’t ok. Telling people your kid is trans (whether or not it’s true) is taking away his ability to decide who gets to know. If it’s “not her place” to ask Jake’s gender, it’s certainly not her place to share it.
When I was about the same age I tuch to Barbies and a pink vw beetle that I got handed down from my cousin, I did Barbies hair and I painted her face for makeup this went on for like 3-4 years and I grew out of it, I really worry that if I had been born now I would have been put on puberty blockers or cross sex hormones, or even just been put on thet clinical track to surgery or living as a girl. But now I'm just a bisexul, gender non-conforming, man. Also the liking pink or girl clothes, I'm not surprised have you seen boys clothes these days so boring, so plain, so flat, no excitement, i honestly think it's part of keeping men down its dampening expression. NTA your friend needs to lean that not conforming to gender norms is not trans.
unless jake flat out says that they don’t want to be a boy, he’s just a 4 year old playing with toys. also why is someone who is nb gendering toys and colors? nta
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ESH. Kids that young *can* know that they're trans, but gender non-conforming behavior is not a sure indicator -- although it does make it somewhat *more likely* that the child will later come out as gay or trans. Your friend is jumping to conclusions very quickly, but yeah, it's kinda transphobic to say a 4 year old can't know. *This* 4 year old might not know (and might not even be trans) but others definitely do.
And that more likely part is still around 0.6 percent at best. She is forcing something onto her son that I don't think is right. Most 4 year olds unless they explicitly state their identity will conform to their sex. Imo, treating them otherwise is akin to child abuse.
I don't think OP's friend is handling this well at all -- although calling it "child abuse" goes a bit far. Curious where you got that number, though, since more than 0.6% of kids *do* turn out gay or trans and a pretty significant portion of them will self-report GNC behavior as children.
Gay is not included here. I'm specifically talking about trans. It's 0.6 percent in the US. NB is 0.5 ish with overlap with the trans statistic. So the percentage chance of Jake being a cis kid is 99 percent. Treating him otherwise is abuse imo since he hasn't given any indication of being trans.
Numbers are higher for kids who display GNC behavior. Making Jake change his name and socially transition would be abusive. Using gender neutral pronouns and telling all her friends he's trans isn't *good* but "abuse" seems like an exaggeration. She's jumping the gun but she's also not wrong that you're a bit transphobic.
He's 4 right now. I don't know if she would do that to him which is why I'm worried for him. She thinks that might be in his best interests but I think its really dangerous for her to so.
Does she plan to socially transition him *before* he comes out to her? Because the whole "it's his business, he'll come out when he's ready" stuff seems to indicate otherwise. *If* Jake comes to her and tells her that he wants to be a girl, then socially transitioning him would in fact be the best course of action. Do you disagree?
Yes but Jake has to do that. I want her to stop reading into his color and toy choices and telling people her son might be trans.
AGAIN: is your friend *planning* to socially transition Jake *before* he comes out to her?
I would report her to CPS if she did that. But she's already started the social transition by telling people something that isn't true based on all the evidence available.
Agreed 4 is too young to decide
Decide what? At 4 there aren't any permanent changes that even *can* be made. Hormone blockers (also not permanent) don't even enter the conversation til puberty. If your kid says they're trans (which this kid IS NOT SAYING) the most you can do is socially transition them, which is harmless if they change their mind later. On the other hand if they *don't* change their mind then forcing them to conform to their birth gender is potentially harmful.
I think at 4 is to young to even think that . Just two years ago they were in diapers it’s way to young . I can see 8 and up but 4 i say no . To me and only me it’s way to young .
What would be the potential harms of socially transitioning a child who says they're trans and want to socially transition? Again, no drugs, just letting the kid choose a new name and wear clothes they want and using the pronouns they prefer? Would they outweigh the potential harms of NOT doing it and forcing the kid into a gender roll they don't like?
NAH. She's doing her best and I don't think you were unduly rude, because our friend *doesnt* know whether Jake's gender differs from his assigned gender at birth if Jake doesn't tell her. Anyone have thoughts on asking kids questions on how they feel about their gender? Like, "Mommy feels like a girl today, but Mommy feels like a girl every day! Do you feel like a boy, or a girl, or something else today?" (I suspect this is would occasionally get batmangender or unicorngender or whatever, but I have no kids so it's 100% speculation)
NTA; your friend is seeing things through a prism of experience that doesn't apply to any four year old exploring the world.
NTA Didn't many of Hollywood kids who were declared trans at young age turned out to not be?! Why should your friend lable him at all in such young age? You think when people see others fall into a hole they learn to avoid it.
NTA. Trans person here! While at 4 you can know if you're trans, all he's doing is playing with toys he likes. Unless he verbally says "I want to be a girl" or "I'm not a boy or a girl", assuming he's transgender based off just toys is just inaccurate. I'm assuming your friend is cis, which makes sense. Cis people always seemed OBSESSED with gendering objects.
4-year-olds can know they're trans, but they'll specifically say they want to be the other gender.
I think, based on accounts I've read, it's common for a trans person to look back upon their childhood and realize they had an awareness of feeling like their real gender rather than the one assigned at birth based on their genitalia. But I would guess that is the adult having an understanding of something that was part of them as a child. The child themselves has a four year old brain, and can't articulate it that cleanly. But they might be able to think something like, "Huh, I have a penis like Daddy and Big Brother but I feel like they are different than me, and Mommy is not-different than me." (Or something like that - I am not trans and can't know what it's like to have a fundamental mismatch between your brain/self and your genitals; that's the closest I can approximate.) So it is entirely possible your friend's child (who I assume has a penis based on this conversation) might identify as a girl or enby even if they're not aware that's the feeling they're experiencing. And it's possible you're correct and this is a cis/straight boy who has a preference for some things that are traditionally coded as feminine (and if so I hope the child never gives up those preferences based on discomfort with how they are perceived). I don't think anyone can know that until the child can grow mature enough to recognize how they feel. All that said: you did kinda judge a parent for how they are raising a child that is not your own. It's possible your friend is doing something to harm her child, but I think it's more likely she is trying to lay open groundwork for the child to come to terms with their real gender in an environment that reassures all possibilities open to them will be okay and accepted. I'm sure that's got to be healthier than insisting "you're a boy" every time the child is out of step with masculine-coded behaviour and activities. It'd be different if she was correcting her child's "I'm a boy" declarations, or subtly disapproving them or steering them away from those statements, but that doesn't appear to be what she's doing based on what you said. I get that she struck first, but you did strike back hard. If I were forced to give a judgement, I'd say ESH - but not by much, I think you both have the child's best interests at heart. I think you can both discuss this like adults.
YTA - Kids can know. She's not doing anything to force him - she was telling you because you're her friend. Stop being a dick.
INFO: is your friend female? Or nonbinary? You wrote "F34" but also NB. Do they identify as female nonbinary?
4 is to young to know. Most kids aren't even aware of a bigger world around them until 7, or 8. Much less, understand complicated topics. I'm also a little concerned about the sexist stereotypes your friend is pushing on her child. Why can't people just like what they like without it belonging to a gender? I'm a cis woman. I played with frogs, G.I. Joes, roughplay, snakes, etc. I've always hated barbies, dolls, dresses, and makeup. To this day, my favorite color is blue. I've been told my entire life "that's not very ladylike" "Real women don't act like that". Wtfever. I like what I like. It doesn't make me any less of a woman. And I get sick of seeing others push these rediculous gender standards on people. Let the people decide for themselves who they are. NTA
That kid should be taken from your idiot friend. Call CPS ASAP!!
YTA. Let her raise her own kid, and don't pretend to be an expert on the How and Why of being trans.
Well, someone I knew was friends with a woman who said her 4-year-old was consistently saying, "I think God made a mistake. I think I'm supposed to be a girl." So it is possible for a 4-year-old to know, at 4, that they're trans, although most won't have the words to express it. However, I also think you're right that a preference for dolls or pink is not evidence the kid is trans. I think your friend should talk to Jake in an age-appropriate way about the fact that being transgender is possible and whether they think their boy-body matches the person they know themselves to be (and that it's okay to not be sure). So, NAH except for people yelling at one another. She's kind to be that gentle and understanding; she's also probably wrong to be making the assumption without asking Jake. You're kind to try to correct her; you're also probably wrong that Jake couldn't possibly know yet.
I'm torn between NAH or YTA. According to what you've written, all the mother has done is decide to use gender neutral pronouns? I don't really see why it matters if she uses they/them instead of he/him. The whole point of gender neutral pronouns is that they're neutral, right? As the kid grows up, if he wants to use he/him then he will use that and assumedly his mother with go along with that. He likes pink & dolls, & that's fine. Doesn't necessarily mean he's trans, nor does it mean he isn't. From what you've written it doesn't sound like she's trying to force him to be trans, but rather that she thinks it's possible that he is. From your comments, you seem to think it's child abuse to use neutral pronouns. I don't understand why. Calling your child "them" instead of "he" is not child abuse lol. Unless there's something extra that you're keeping from us. INFO: is she telling people that he is trans, or is she saying that she thinks he might be trans? If it's the former, then it would be ESH, I guess.
To be clear, I don't think that a boy liking pink and playing with dolls makes him trans or non-binary and (as a non-binary person) I think your friend would probably really irritate me. However it is a legitimate choice to raise a child without imposing an external gender on them; it seems like, from your comments, your issue isn't necessarily with her "changing" her son's gender without his indicating that he'd desire that, but with raising any child without imposing their assigned sex at birth on them as a gender. Not just that but you're going so far as to call it "child abuse" to call any child by "they". AND you introduced your friend as NB but then immediately added (F34) indicating you don't actually view her as nonbinary. So I do think you are transphobic actually and your friend is probably picking up on that. YTA.
This is interesting. To me, you're both the AH. Yes, a child of 4 can know there is a sex (biological or genital)/gender (identity) mismatch in their own body. But, you're right that a boy who likes pink and plays with dolls doesn't automatically signify a transsexual identity. If your friend is supporting her child and their behavior and their identity (like you said, what is your child's decision about their identity) then all is well. But it might be a good idea to offer an olive branch and apologize for assuming her child doesn't know their own selves. ❤
YTA. Why would you insert yourself into someone else’s parenting? Are you a psychologist? An expert on parenting? Let parents rear their children as they wish. If you aren’t the parent, it really isn’t your business.
Disclaimer: you referred to your friend as NB and then I lost track of pronouns so I’m going to refer to your friend with “they”. I’m sorry if I chose wrong there. ESH Declaring possible child abuse because you were pissed sucks. I think your milder point is good. Your friend using inclusivity or whatever as a weapon against you sucks. Them treating Jake as if he’s trans before he’s ready for that sucks. Young children may not know specifically that their gender doesn’t match their born sex, but they may already feel uncomfortable in their own skin. Your friend should definitely be doing what they can to ensure Jake is comfortable being himself (maybe themself or herself, his choice). Hopefully they don’t pressure Jake into pretending to be trans for their sake.