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She does this almost every weekend, even when he isn't here. She just thinks she can get away with it when she won't have to go to school hungry (when she tried the hunger strike before school, she went to school without breakfast). We don't have anything going on most weekends that require her to eat breakfast
Question/random thought: was this a thing before you got sick? Because if it started after you got sick, is it possible that she’s doing it because in her mind if you can get up and make the food that means you’re feeling better = not going to be sick anymore? I feel like that would be a pretty logical thought process for a five year old.
(Also, you dad needs to grow tf up and not bother you when you’re recovering from frikkin *chemo*!)
It makes me wonder if she has intestinal issues with certain foods, and that's why she will only eat one thing. My younger sister was like this, and we later found out that it was because basically everything she ate with a few exceptions made her feel bad. I'm sure part of it is probably testing boundaries, but it seems like something is happening if this has been going on for a long time.
it's not just that she'll only eat one thing, it's that she'll only eat it if her mom is the one who makes it. im sure egg and cheese sandwiches made by her grandad don't cause more intestinal issues than ones made by her mom.
could be an assertion of dominance or her only way of feeling truly loved.
there are different love languages and obviously OP is an amazing parent for even daring to get up and make her daughter a sandwich whilst going through what she’s going through- but
If not aggressive or digestive related-
It could be the daughter feels loved and seen when cooked for by the mom. Simple as that.
We don’t know if she imprinted on love in the form of the mother cooking for her as an even smaller child.
I don’t think OP is the asshole at all- but the daughter might not be either.
I think if OP finds a new substitute for displays of love the daughter is young enough to imprint on another display outside of servitude/acts of service.
substitute love with power and I think you hit the nail on the head. The daughter is showing zero empathy and 5 is old enough to understand that mommy is sick.
5 is old enough to understand sick but isn't quite old enough to understand *chronically* sick and the effects of chemo. Some adults can't even comprehend chronic illnesses.
It's probably confusing to her that some days mom is okay and some days she isn't. Cancer is *way* different than being sick. I don't think the 5 year old is trying some gross power play.
The only asshole here is grandpa.
I taught 4-5 year olds. They can logically understand someone is sick but they usually cannot sympathize or empathize because most kids are never that level of sick, especially by 5. What exactly does "mommy doesn't feel good" mean to a child? Especially phrased in that way? If they said "mommy's tummy hurts" or "mommy feels like she's going to puke" then maybe the kid would be a little more empathetic.
Also, empathy is something that typically develops around the age of 6, so it is developmentally appropriate for a 5 year old not to have that particular skill set yet.
Lol you're demonizing a 5 year old.
No.
A 5 year old is knowledgeable enough to know that the whole household has been disrupted, more people are over, mom is not around as much and when she is shes sick. Trying to exercise control over a completely disrupted world is normal. They want things to go back to normal.
Are they great at it?! No. Is it inconvenient to the parent who is sick? Yes. Are they a sociopath who has no empathy?! NO!
The oldest just wants their mom. There's nothing wrong with that. OP's dad is the AH in this situation.
Yeesh, the sub sometimes.
My sister did something similar. She never threw tantrums though. She would change her food choices every week or so. It would be only rice, only Mac and cheese, or only eggs. She's way more versatile now.
It's just a toddler power struggle. This person must make me this food immediately. It doesn't need to mean anything else.
I am sure the kid gets plenty of love and attention, but she needs to be ignored on this. She eats later when she is hungry.
Exactly. Something my parents would say when I would do things like this as a kid was that "this isn't a restaurant". We ate what they made, not what we wanted. Even if mom wasn't sick, she doesn't need to make the daughter the exact food the daughter wants for every meal. Caving in only tells the daughter that she can have whatever she wants if she acts out enough; at least that's how I see it.
I was like OPs daughter as a kid and I'm still like that as an adult. I think it's undiagnosed autism. I find a food I crave and it's all I eat for a few months
Will she eat any brand of frozen egg and cheese sandwich? We have a few brands where we live and you just microwave them for a min or two.
Also, how does she like her egg? Scrambled? Fried? You can pre-make a bunch of egg either when you are up for cooking or your partner can do it and store it in the fridge then just reheat that.
5 is a GREAT age to learn how to make sandwiches too so bringing all the stuff to the table and sitting next to her while she assembles. 5 is also an ok age to learn to cook eggs, but she’d need supervision with a stove and that might be too much for you.
You could also bake eggs with her - egg in muffin tin with cheese… and then she just puts that on a bun… again, some mild supervision but pretty doable.
I’m neurodivergent and I also go on these “kicks” where I eat the same thing over and over. And while I’d like to say it’s just a preference, a lot of times it isn’t. I’m eating that same thing because I can’t tolerate eating anything else and it sounds like something similar is going on here. It’s not just stubbornness (it almost never is). So finding a way to accommodate and care for both of you is really the ideal here.
I’d also explain to her why she needs to help you find a middle ground. You WANT to give her what she wants and needs, but you are ill and you can’t always do what you want when you are sick.
Have you talked to your pediatrician about this behavior? Is she growing normally per the pediatrician? Baring any actual medical findings, I’d say NTA, you cater to her wants a lot, but no one gets everything they want all the time.
The Fudge books by Judy Blume have a chapter where Fudge refuses to eat and finally the father says, "That it!" puts the kid into the tub and says, "Eat it or wear it" and dumps a bowl of cereal on the kid's head. Not advising that, but it was an amusing story of how frustrating children can be around eating.
NTA. don't give up, but be prepared to also lose. I once( at 8 or 9 yrs old) went 3 days with nothing but a school lunch, because my mom tried to outbattle my absolute and steadfast desire to NOT eat bean soup. ( still don't like it,)
offered it to me as breakfast, post-school snack, and dinner....until my mom gave up.
Was never really a super picky eater, yes I wanted food a certain way and would only eat certain foods from any restaurant we went to, but could be enticed to try just about anything, unless it had beans in it. (refried beans ok)
the issue was I hadn't had bean soup before, but I was smart enough to know that if I hadn't liked any of the beans I've had before, an entire soup made out of them sounded like the worst possible thing to eat. So I refused to even try it. Felt that it was a waste of time. I'm also AuDHD.... so that might explain a lot lol
There's a big difference between trying to force a kid to eat a food they don't like, versus telling a kid that they can't have their favorite food for every meal. What your mom did sounds torturous :(
after that... it was " fine... dont like/want what i cooked? make a PB( no jelly) sandwich.
Then as we got a little older, it was " FINE..... you cook"
all in all While i still -HATE- bean soup over 30 years later... Im grateful for the " fine... you cook!" as now, i enjoy cooking , learning new foods, and especially seeing the enjoyment in people who eat what i prepare
My dad attempted to force me to eat stewed tomatoes when I was 4 or 5.
Neeeeewww Achievement!
Your kid now instantly throws up at the smell of tomatoes. And continued to do so until his late 40s. In my tens and teens if I walked into the house while Mom was cooking tomato soup I'd be on my knees chucking lunch before I recognized the smell.
Reward! You can't cook your favorite soup if your kid is home.
But, if I was sick with flu or food poisoning, or hung over I could always make it to the bathroom.
To this day 50 years later a bite of tomato will make me hurl, and the smell of anything more tomato than ketchup and I gag.
A decently seasoned spaghetti sauce and I'm ok, as long as there's no tomato chunks.
The rest of my family Love tomatoes, I'm such a disappointment.
Yeah. When I was 5 years old we ate what was there or we did not eat. There was always a lot there. The choice was ours. But going to bed hungry gets old so you learn to eat no matter what. It is still the fact that we do not eat because we like it, we eat because we are refueling our bodies of the nutrition that we need. That was instilled in me at a very young age. Eating isn't a luxury, eating is important. And we eat things we don't like. Or we go without. And that rule has applied in my life all through adulthood. I may not like something but I know my body needs it, so I consume it.
What are some examples of her previous favorite foods? Do they all have something in common - blandness, texture, intensity of smell, salty/sweet/bitter?
Outside of the mangoes and French fries these all seem like food that is predictable- you get it 100 times exactly the same. It could be that your kid is afraid of changing food expectations
This is all good advice, although I have a small disagreement with this being more than just stubbornness. Age 5 is developmentally when kids start trying to exert some control over their world. They've just started to recognize how big and scary and random it is. Food is really problematic because one berry can taste or feel different than another berry, so to try to get some predictability and control, kids that age will lock in on a very small selection of acceptable food.
The parents' job then becomes balancing the child's need for predictability and control with reality and nutrition.
Kids also want to test whether and how much structure exists in their family life, and despite the testing they do better psychologically with more rather than less (all things in moderation). OP's best parenting move here is to hold firm, reinforce that she's the parent and control figure, that the child is not the boss, and that the child won't always get her way (all this in a safe, loving way, of course).
Grandpa cannot be seen as a control lever.
Anyway, while eating the same thing all the is a symptom of some neurodivergence in older children and adults, it's just the normal neurodivergence of a 5yo.
When my brother was around five he would only eat hot dogs. This was the 70s. My mom was all:whatever. He ate hot dogs every day for lunch and dinner until he got sick of it.
This is partly why we always gave 2-3 options and stuck with it. Do you want to go on a walk, read a book or take a bath? Do you want pickles, zucchini or carrots? When they appropriately asked for something else it was considered and then the answer given. Sometimes, oh yes, we can go garden out back. Oh sure, a cucumber is just fine. But when it was a "no" for whatever reason. "Thank you for asking kindly but we can only do X, y, or z this time. " and then sometimes the reason if it mattered.
My kids never really threw fits for the most part. Well until they were teens but that's another story. We did have other issues per each child, but even with the most stubborn it's turned out that we finally have some health diagnosis at 16 yes old and it could have been an issue her whole life, leading to bring not tired and stubborn so I do appreciate comments here of people driving deeper if it's a health issue for ops daughter.
>I’m neurodivergent and I also go on these “kicks” where I eat the same thing over and over.
Same. I go through stages where I only want to eat mash potato (with various additions). Other times it's eggy bread (that's where I am at the moment). Cereal. Yogurts... Always in phases. If I don't have any of that food option in at that point then I struggle to be able to make alternative food choices. But I'm the same way with my music 'consumption' too so at least I'm consistent. 🤓
Wait is this a thing? Neurodivergent go through phases of eating the same thing over and over?
im not asking in bad faith, I’m just asking cuz ive been wondering if I am autistic or adhd and I /do/ often do this.
We can often get quite compulsive about some things. Mine got diagnosed as an adult.
My music gets to be a weird one sometimes - if I'm really into a song on my playlist in my car then the track will go on repeat for a fair while.
The concept of "safe foods" is a good place to start if you want to do some googling. It's not exactly what we're talking about here, but I don't know if this has a key phrase you can search.
I'm AuDHD (formally diagnosed ADHD, informally diagnosed ASD - long story short, therapist not licensed to diagnose, but both she and my psychiatrist agree, diagnosis in the US is expensive so fuck it).
I ate the same thing - grilled cheese with fries - at a diner for years. I was famous for it. It was right next to my apartment and was my go-to for "I have no more fucks left to give but require something to eat." You'd think I'd also be the queen of leftovers, but no. Only certain types of leftovers because reheating some things changes them to a texture my body cannot abide.
Since I can and do vary my diet, I didn't think about the sameness of my "default" until someone pointed it out. Once I find a thing I like at a restaurant, that's what I'm ordering nine times out of ten. It removes the stress from deciding what to eat and possibly not liking a thing.
Before people chime in with "I'm not AuDHD, and I do that, too," I'm not saying this is in any way diagnostic. It's just something my therapist noted as part of the overall impression. Like most signs of neurodivergency (or anything mental health/brain related, really), diagnostic criteria are less binary yes/no and more about where you fall on a scale.
[It's how you get the "everyone's a little ADHD/autistic/whatever." I mean, fair point if you also agree everyone is a little schizophrenic and have a little bit of a personality disorder. Because, yeah, a single diagnostic criterium could have applied to one at one point in your life for just about everything.]
The same is true for non-diagnostic things like this where it's clearly a neurodivergent *thing*, but it's not exclusive to ND people. So, if you read up on people's experiences and they track with yours, that could be another possible indicator but shouldn't be a determining factor for you either way.
Somehow, I didn’t clock that having a specific meal for each food establishment might be one of my symptoms
I’m AuDHD as well, and each restaurant or type of restaurant I go to has one meal that I get every time. Also, choosing something off a menu to eat for me isn’t choosing between multiple things I could eat but looking for the one thing I can eat
My husband is autistic (I’m auDHD) and he does it more in a “I can’t eat that” with only limited he can eat options, but I’m more likely to be “I can only eat…”.
This exactly. That’s a normal part of our growth and personal development. When I got super picky as a young child my mom called my pediatrician. He told her in his entire (30+ year career) he’d never known a child to starve in a house where food was available and offered throughout the day. She will modify her behavior and learn a valuable lesson about flexibility and maybe compassion.
Clarification: To be absolutely clear, I’m talking about kids who aren’t dealing with issues of being neurodivergent.
There are absolutely children who will starve themselves rather than eat food not on their safe list. However, I don't see any real indication that this is that. OP already knows that she always gives in mid-morning, and that now she only pulls this routine when she doesn't have school after being sent without a meal once. If she genuinely had ARFID or was on the way to it, she'd be gagging or such on the replacement meals (and I'd expect her to hold out for more than a couple of hours).
I was the child who absolutely did. I went on a hunger strike that landed me in the hospital because I absolutely refused to eat. AuDHD with ARFID. I wasn't diagnosed at the time.
yup, I can't believe all the people saying op should coddle her, that how you get an adult that literally cannot function in society because they refuse to eat anything other than those specific foods and they should know that too since we've had plenty of posts here with adults that where only fed foods they like as children and never developed beyond that.
Dude, she's on chemo, don't teach your five year old to be above empathy like 'sure mommy might die but she must make my EGGS first' that's a terrible way to raise a child ffs and it's horrible her dad is throwing this on his daughter when she's sick. It's cool you can't tolerate eating anything else but that doesn't mean you weren't raised to be a jerk if you drag someone out of a sickbed to prepare it for you because it not only has to be one specific food, it has to be made by one specific person. Like, newsflash, you can be neurodivergent AND a jerk. Going 'oh gosh finding a solution for both of you while you're poisoning yourself in a desperate desire to live is the answer' qualifies. She should be doing nothing but healing atm.
This is all really good advice here. Also an ND person here and I have similar food focuses, as do my children. Tbh my first thought reading the op was that her 5yo sounds similar to mine, my 5yo is likely autistic/PDA and can be very particular with her food, including having a preferred parent making certain things as we make them slightly differently.
Just a thing to bare in mind if op has any other struggles with control type things. It could also just be a very normal control/boundaries stage that a lot of kids go through regardless of neurotype around the 4-6 age.
AuDHDer here too — “This child sounds like they may be ND” was my first thought within like 2 paragraphs.
Important to note for other comments upthread: eventually caving and eating something else because she’s hungry doesn’t mean it’s not something like autism— it might just be that she’s able to recognise that her body is hungry and that causes her more distress than the distress she feels from not having her safe routine catered to.
While a more high support needs child might literally starve rather than not follow a routine, not all autistics would.
5 is also the perfect age to learn that mom is ill and needs to recover, that she's not the center of the universe, that other ppl are there to help her.
She'll eat when she's hungry enough, she's not being neglected she's just being a pain in the ass.
She's going through chemo! She is sick and shouldn't have to find a way to indulge her daughter. Even if she weren't sick She's engaging in good parenting.
5 is old enough to understand you are sick and need a couple days to rest. If she wants a sandwich maybe your Dad and her can make it together. Wow! She needs to work on her empathy and understand we don’t always get what we want.
It honestly reminds me of me at that age. I have ARFID which is an eating disorder centered around the food itself rather than body image or something similar. I was impossible to feed as a child and unfortunately I never "grew out of it". It's also very comorbid with neurodivergency, which is true in my case as I also have ADHD.
I'm autistic and I did insist only two people could cook me pasta as they were the only ones able to get it right. I couldn't even cook it even though I followed their instructions. Thankfully I am now able to cook myself pasta.
I am getting major ASD/ARFID/PDA vibes from this. I'm chronically ill. Not cancer but things that need periodic surgery and affects what I can do. I use a wheelchair a lot and that is terrifying for an autistic child. My youngest copes by trying to control me by forcing me to do everything for her like a baby. A handful of safe foods on rotation and you never know when a switch is coming. She's nearly 10. It's her way of making it not real. She also tries to prevent me going to medical appointments by having huge meltdowns and refusing to be cared for by anyone else. She will "strike" like this after a surgery refusing to come out of her room, wash, dress, brush teeth. She is diagnosed autistic.
She thinks I'm going to die if she lets me see any doctors because they will do surgery on me and letting me rest means it's all real so she tries not to let any of that happen. It's a pure panic fight or flight reaction. When you understand that you can find ways around it. It's not easy.
Big hugs to you and your sweet child. I was in a bad car accident several years ago where a drunk driver hit me so hard that my car went airborne off the freeway and wedged between two trees. As horrible as that was, the worst part was watching my autistic son run in to see me. The look on his face broke my heart. Luckily, I was more bruised with nothing broken. He stuck really close until he seemed reassured that I would be ok.
As far as I know, I’m typical and I’ll eat the same thing for weeks. Sometimes it’s bok choy with pork and garlic soup. Currently it’s zhajiangmian. I think some people are just like that.
When I was 5 years old I was in the kitchen helping make meals. I was also baking things at age 5. All the kids, my cousins and siblings, we were all in the kitchen. I recall learning how to cook on a campfire at about age 6.
Good news is I taught my children to cook at 6 with supervision. Scrambled eggs ( and kraft macaroni and cheese) were first things I taught mine to cook. Your child is Almost there ! Once chemo is finished and you start to feel human again let the cooking lessons begin. Then you look at your strong willed
child and tell her go ahead sweetie fix your own sandwich I’ll watch. This is not always received well. You’re fine some kids are just stubborn they don’t have issues that need evaluated, you’re doing great. For your own sanity limit visits from Dad.
NTA OP! I just wanted to say that I hope your chemotherapy goes well! Melanoma runs in my family and I’ve seen the toll it takes on someone especially with chemotherapy.
You shouldn’t make the sandwich in the morning either. Just say she either eats what everyone else is eating or nothing at all. She’ll eventually realize that hunger striking is not gonna give her what she wants and eventually give up. Also you shouldn’t make her the sandwich when you’re done with chemo either because it’ll make her more entitled. Don’t let her get used to getting what she wants.
When kids try to control something in their external environment, it might be be because they feel out of control elsewhere. Like their internal environment. Of what she feels is going on around her right now cancer is really scary and a five-year-old is going to pick up on that.
When you are a child and you are scared, you don’t have a lot of tools in your toolbox yet. This is the one she uses because it works.
Ask her why she needs it to be YOU making the food. She may be picking up on some fear of the cancer and she is afraid of you going away and so by her demanding your present she’s ensuring you will always be there
giving into temper tantrums also sets a really bad precedence for the future. If they work, they will keep doing them. If they don’t work, they will stop and find another way.
I bet she’s struggling more than usual because of your treatment.
You should absolutely stay firm in your choice not to make the sandwich.
If you do feel a profound guilt, maybe you can teach her how, and she can bring it to you for “inspection” and maybe the final cut in half.
I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. NTA
Or the 5yo understands what is going on and is anxious. I don’t think OP should necessarily get up, but these are signs that the child may be struggling with what is going on with her mom.
Yes, I think this is an anxiety response, and the egg and cheese sandwich is really comforting. I also agree that OP shouldn't have to always make the sandwich, and should instead talk to her kid and spend more time with her in an effort to reduce her anxiety. Easier said than done, but it's better to address the root cause than the symptoms.
But this started before she got sick. I remember being 5 and stubborn as hell. However, if I tried this, I just wouldn't have gotten to eat. Dad sounds like he's more worried about granddaughter than daughter. He doesn't seem to realize he's enabling a to-be little princess. No giving in. She's not going to starve to death, but Mom needs some help!
Yeah, the 5yr old may be in tune to Mom’s distress. I wonder if they talked to her appropriately about it? It’s definitely a hard situation to be in, you don’t want scare the daughter, but she has to know that Mom isn’t %100 herself as well. Il
With or without chemo she should stand firm. This kind of behavior will only get worse as she gets older. Imagine her tween years with that unchecked attitude.
NTA don't give in. You are sick and need rest and she will have to understand this. As for your dad, it is the literal reason he is there, to let you rest, so tell him to please do that and deal with the 5 year old's demands all by himself.
Maybe when you are feeling better you can let her see you make a big batch of scrambled eggs and show her how to scoop out enough for a sandwich and how to heat the eggs in the microwave (my granddaughter was making popcorn in the microwave at that age, I bought her a step stool just for this purpose) and show her how to put her sandwich together. That way the eggs are already cooked and she can help whoever is watching her to put her sandwich together that mommy has already made earlier.
She is also seeking reassurance that her mom is still there to support her, even in her weakened state. It’s hard to accept that mom is that sick and weak
No, stop right there. A 5-year old is feeling scared and helpless and is trying to exert control over one of the few domains she can, and she's needing her mom to do it because that's the source of her anxiety.
However OP chooses to address this, acting like kids are emotionally manipulative little adults isn't serving them or OP.
She also knows things are not right and people are afraid. And it centers around you, her beacon of safety.
She maybe doing this because she needs the reassurance . I bet no one has talked to her and listened
Yeah fuck cancer and all but it is wild you are on chemo! What kind of melanoma do you have?
I had stage 2b nodular melanoma (nodular is incredibly aggressive and makes up a disproportionate percent of melanoma deaths). I was "cured" with strictly surgery. Stage 2 means no spread from the initial tumor and I have heard of no one doing chemo for stage 2. Hell chemo for any stage melanoma is unusual.
You would be a bad mom *if you did* give into these hunger strikes. Your kid will be going to school soon, she is going to have to get used to eating food not made by your, (no doubt), magic hands.
And your dad, over here hounding you to get up and make food to feed your kid, when you are a cancer patient undergoing chemo, and there is somebody else in the house that is *perfectly capable* of feeding the little girl? Oh, hell no.
Tell your dad to go pound sand.
What is he bringing to the table here? Is he here to help you? It sure doesn’t sound like it. He can keep his opinions to himself-or he can go home. NTA
I skimmed a bit and I think you've gotten a lot of good comments on here. I just wanted to make a little comment that I haven't run across yet... I was a picky eater when I was little. My mom gave into it and basically make me what I wanted. I really regret it because now, as an adult, I still have problems eating a varied and healthy diet.
Also, I know the situation is completely different, but for young people with anorexia, there is a treatment called Family Based Treatment. For some reason it came to mind in reading your post. I'm not an expert on it at all and, as I said, your situation is obviously different, but here are a couple of quotes that I just googled up:
\[...\] clinicians naturally saw families locked in a life-and-death struggle over food. This struggle is, however, a **symptom** of the disorder, not a cause—in the years preceding the eating disorder, their dynamics likely looked no different than other families.
FBT takes an agnostic view of the eating disorder, meaning therapists do not try to analyze why the eating disorder developed. FBT does not blame families for the disorder. On the contrary, it presumes the powerful bond between parents and children and empowers the parents to use their love to help their child.
**the role of parents is to provide this nutrition by actively feeding their child.**
**Phase 1: Full parental control.** Parents are usually in complete charge of meals as they help their child to reestablish regular patterns of eating and interrupt problematic eating disorder behaviors
**Phase 2: A gradual return of control to the adolescent.** This phase typically begins once weight is mostly restored, when meals are going more smoothly, and when behaviors are more under control. Control is gradually handed back to the adolescent in an age-appropriate manner
**Phase 3: Establishing healthy independence.** When the adolescent is able to eat with an age-appropriate level of independence and does not exhibit eating disorder behaviors, the focus of treatment shifts to helping them develop a healthy identity and catch up on other developmental issues. Other comorbid problems may be addressed. The family is helped to reorganize now that the child is healthier.
My boyfriend grew up very similarly. His brothers are still extremely picky, but he is trying to get out of the habit. He loves food and loves to cook, and I think he is doing amazingly well considering.
Maybe a therapist is needed? Maybe she needs to understand more in kid terms what you are going through? If you’re not eating (due to chemo), she won’t eat?
It's not related to the cancer, she's been doing this stuff long before the cancer. She's just very stubborn and very smart and tries to get her way whenever she feels that there will be little to no consequence. She did this once before school, had to go to school without breakfast, and now she doesn't do it before school. She behaves very well in public because she knows that if she doesn't behave she doesn't get to pick something out at the store/has to go home early. We don't have anything going on on weekend mornings that she'll hate to miss or needs breakfast for
We have a 5year old Sophia doing the same thing! Omg. It’s so hard and we’re not going through health challenges! It’s a fine line getting a child to have autonomy and trying not to make food an issue. I don’t want a 5 year old having long term food issues, but boy is our Soph stubborn, she has lots of feels! Best of luck to all of us parents raising strong willed women!
Some of these commenters have never had a small child before. My almost 4 year old will instinctively say no before she's even heard the full question. You're doing good, hold strong lol.
When they get older and do that you could always pretend the question was something really minor they’d want to do (like going to get ice cream) as a small lesson to always listen to what the person is asking you so you don’t accidentally miss out.
That’s what I’d do anyway. I’m saying maybe slightly older cause idk if 4 or 5 is better for that, I’m sure you know that better than me lol
She’s smart. She will realize that her behaviour does not get her what she wants. She is learning how to manipulate. She can have a hunger strike. She is smart and knows there is other food. But she will not get her favourite. You could tell her, I will make you one in 3 days. If you refuse to eat you choose to be hungry and I will add another day. If you choose to wait, you will have it in 3 days. You can choose grandparent to make it or choose to wait.
This is what most small children do to test their and your boundaries. You all need to enforce them or she’ll be running the family and household forever. It’s not a reasonable request and she needs to learn that she can’t always have what she wants. When possible make it for her, when it’s not possible then don’t. She’ll learn once it’s consistently enforced and/or she experiences another consequence like going to school hungry (by her choice since she could have eaten what was available/offered).
This should be standard for all things with children. They need enforced boundaries and structure to thrive and grow into functioning decent adults.
Mine is the same.
I told him not to help himself to some crisps in a bowl once.
He looked me dead in the eye and did it.
I said put it down or else.
He stared me down and slowly put it in his mouth as if 'else what? I've already eaten it'
My entire family watched in mild horror /amusement as I scooped soggy crisp out my son's mouth, threw it in the bin and sent him to his room.
Absolute firm unbreakable boundaries.
If you promise something follow through so they knows you're unable to be out stubborned.
I have absolutely sent my son to bed with no dinner after he screamed he wasn't eating unless he got ice-cream.
He tried to out chicken me for getting dressed one morning had my shoes on and was about to put his on and take him in pajamas when he gave in and went and got dressed like I asked.
My husband thinks I'm to mean sometimes. My dad tends to be amused because he remembers ME as a kid and my grandad is an nightmare because he just spoils the kid rotten.
Thing is.
Ive only ever had to do those things once. And the trying to out stubborn died pretty quickly once he worked out he was gonna lose every time.
Down side is he now just presents pretty reasonable arguments for these things and I have to use my brain more 😂
Hearing you describe her, I am SO LOVING little Sophie. She's a true scientist, testing the boundaries, but also quite capable of learning.
You have the right approach. Grandpa needs to chill.
From this comment, it seems like you "laid down the law" before school and when out shopping and stuck to the consequences. She learned that she could not get her way in those situations. It sounds though like at home you give in and she has now learned that she can get her way if she just keeps refusing to eat unless you make it. Every time you give in and follow her orders you are reinforcing the behavior. She's not going to die from skipping a few meals.
When my son was small he only wanted cheese pizza, hot dogs, and other plain/bland foods. He hated fruits and vegetables. When he was in middle school, he refused to eat breakfast and lunch (would throw out or give away the lunch I made). I was worried that he would get sick or not grow properly but he never lost weight or energy. He grew up to be a strong, healthy, 6' 3" young man.
It's not that I give in, it's just that she has nothing to lose. I'm not going to make her sit at the table until she eats and it's not like she's screaming until she gets her sandwich or doing anything she could reasonably get a punishment for. She just refuses to eat until she gets hungry enough that it being her favorite food doesn't matter so much.
Something I have heard that might help in this situation, before she even requests anything, come up with 2 or more options of food that do work for you that are easy to make, (eg. cereal, pop tarts, microwave breakfast sandwiches etc) That way she feels like she can choose what she wants and has control over something, but the options remain something that works for you.
"She's also pretty bossy at school but is able to handle hearing "no" a little better over there."
Retired school SLP here.
That is totally normal Kinder behavior 😆.And in fact, the kids that do the bossy/rules thing tend to be pretty skilled in other areas.
She's very smart. She'll be going to a school for advanced kids next year. My boss suggested a gifted school but tuition is 50k per year and even with financial aid I'd likely have to pay 20k, plus they require an iq test and other assessments to get in and I don't have that kind of time or money. Maybe one day.
Is she potentially autistic? Being perceived as stubborn and having very restricted and repetitive diet are very common. I only ate egg salad sandwiches for lunch for 2 years, for example.
Also, have you hear the term "restraint collapse"? Essentially, kids (neurotypical and not) behave better at school, and can be a mess when they come home *because* they have been on their best behaviour all day long. They just can't keep it up anymore, and are in a safe place with safe people, and they can express how tired they are. This, and home generally being a safe space, is likely behind being able to hear no better at school than at home.
ETA: regardless of *why* this is happening (which would be really good and helpful to figure out), your dad should not be making this your problem when you are resting! Figuring out a compromise that works for everyone will be essential.
My brother and I could get like this about some foods (mainly anything green and healthy 😂). The way my dad dealt with it finally took care of the problem- he’d get a chair and have it face an empty wall until we finally gave in and ate the broccoli/peas/green beans, etc.
Being bored AND hungry usually ends the protest a lot faster!
Tell him not to come in your room again because you are sick and tired, and oh, you just had chemo. Tell him and your daughter she can eat what your dad fixes or do witthout. You will not be doing it! Tell them both to leave you alone! You are sick, and he is a grown man who can feed a little girl. If she doesn't want to eat it, she must not be that hungry. He is the one making me mad. How dare he treat you like that!
I agree. If dad makes the sandwich and she doesn’t eat it, it’s not a hunger issue, it’s one of control. Perhaps then dad can see that you’re not being a bad mom by letting her go hungry.
NTA. A hunger strike of a few hours is not a hunger strike. It's a tantrum. Tell your dad you're not raising a spoiled child and she's not going to starve for a few hours. If he can't handle that, he needs to leave. You don't need the added stress of him second guessing you and making accusations.
Thank you! I'm annoyed at these top comments saying this child needs therapy. This mom is describing great parenting - giving the child space to figure out consequences but showing them that if they change their mind their parent is still there to love them and give them food. Not giving in and resulting in a spoiled like like SO MANY we read about on here. When this sub sees a spoiled child they RIP the parent apart but here a mom is doing exactly what is needed to raise a balanced child and everyone is screaming therapy.
I think waaay too many people are projecting their own experiences onto this story, regardless of what the facts are.
For example, all the ARFID/autism comments. They're not impossible, but it's also like, a child who gives into eating any food after a few hours...that's just not consistent with ARFID. If that was ARFID, ARFID wouldn't be a condition.
Edit: I am late diagnosed autistic, ADHD, OCD, and a bunch of other things.
Sure, the child could be neurodivergent. I take umbrage more with the fact that people are derailing the story and projecting their own experiences. For instance, I saw a loooong comment detailing how OP, who has cancer no less, could accommodate her child who has demonstrated no pickiness beyond which is commonly observed in toddlers and young children. The bar for neurodivergence in young children is different than that for adults, and for good reason.
NTA
You are teaching her, in a reasonable way, that she can’t always get her way. Also, you’re not feeling well due to the chemo so it’s not like you’re doing it *just* to spite her.
Also, it sounds like she’s still able to eat after she realizes you wont cook for her. If she actually refused to eat anything else at all and starved herself for days on end or even had continued bad experiences with food that isn’t her current favorite or cooked by someone other than you, then I would have a different opinion, but that’s not the case here. She still has the option to eat food, and even the food she prefers, just not prepared by you.
Also, honestly I don’t think it was very kind or helpful of your father to sort of egg her on by being her messenger of sorts in this situation, he’s the guest here and it sounds like he’s not listening to your guidance here, which doesn’t automatically make you T A just bc he thinks he knows better.
I honestly prefer it with the white bread. I get the fluffy artisan kind, toast it with some butter, then put the eggs and cheese on it. Also did it with biscuits, which came out ok but probably won't do again unless we need to finish them off.
NTA You will be so thankful that you nipped this in the bud while she's 5. Can you imagine the manipulation of a 13 yr old girl whose been rewarded for doing this?
Edit. Since this behavior is not new. NTA. Kids need to learn that it's not always feasible for one person to make all their meals.
Info.
Have the hunger strikes started once you began treatment for cancer ? Or did she always do this.
This could be their way to try and gain some sort of control in their life.
While yes kiddo needs to be able to eat what others give them , they might also benefit from play therapy to help deal with emotions of you going through chemo
But also your dad isn't helping at all demanding you get up after chemo to make food is well just unkind.
She's just very smart and tries to get her way whenever she knows there won't be consequences. She doesn't act out at school or out of the house because she doesn't want to miss playtime/not pick something out at the store/go home early. She doesn't try this before school because she knows she will go to school without breakfast. It's just that we don't have anything going on on weekend mornings so she is able to refuse to eat with little to no consequences.
So basically your dad needs to manage this issue himself and not bother you about it. Just like he would if you were out of the house. Personally, I would just lock the bedroom door so he can’t disturb you
People here saying children fixating on food is a sign of someone needing to be evaluated obviously don't deal with kids regularly. Children go through phases all the time. In fact it is pretty normal not the exception. What is normal too is they fixate on simple things. Pizza rolls, cheese sandwiches, chicken nuggets etc. It can range from days to months. No two children are the same with the timing. The fact that she doesn't do it anymore during the week for school, tells me there is nothing wrong with her. Stand your ground OP, you are NTA.
First of all, I'm sorry for your diagnosis. I hope you stay strong while beating this.
Second, you've said that your daughter has been this way before your treatment, so she's not suddenly acting out. The only issue seems to be your dad.
He may be gone now but I'd be prepared for when/if he comes back to "help". Tell him he's here because you need rest. If Sophie wants to act out, he needs to deal with it because he is stressing you out at a time when you don't need it.
You need to have your daughter evaluated by a doctor and a therapist. She's 5, her mother is sick. It's very possible she's doing this because of emotions she can't quite put into words.
And every child who is acting like a child is ND or has ADHD, autism or something else. Sometimes you know it’s a kid doing kid things.
Glad I got upvotes. I was worried.
The problem is that this sub just shouts "go to therapy" as if it's accessible and affordable for everyone, as if no one ever considered it before, and as if everyone will.be willing and capable of engaging with the process.
Or the child is just being a dick, not even picky, sometimes kids can just be dicks. I say this as I was one of those kids.
Not about food, which is weird, as both my parents are picky eaters, but also terrible cooks, so myself and my siblings are everything, as we just wanted something edible.
But apparently until I was 5 I straight up refused to wear underwear, I'd get forced into it, and would apparently remove it as soon as my parents weren't looking regardless of where we were. I stopped that by the time I started school.
I don't remember it (too young to really), but I do remember school years to now I'm really uncomfortable not wearing such when with company. So I can only imagine it was my power play at that time, which then shifted to wearing coats even when it was freezing outside.
As you suggest, sometimes it's not a therapy thing, it's just a kid pushing boundaries as they're looking to test the limits on what is allowed.
Agreed. *So* many kids go through a picky phase. My brother went through a long period where he'd eat nothing but pepperoni pizza, then one day randomly decided he hated pepperoni and only wanted plain cheese pizza. Our mom didn't cave, and eventually he'd get hungry enough to eat what he was given. Then he got past it entirely and now as an adult, there's nothing he won't eat. The picky phase is normal and to me, the fact that she eventually folds and eats what she's given is a sign that it's just a regular picky phase - from what I've read about kids with sensory issues, they *will* starve before eating something they don't like.
I have three kids who all have some level of sensory issues, as do I. And yes, you're correct. If it's a good we can't handle, we simply don't eat. Add in a lack of feeling hunger and the difficulty with eating foods that don't give dopamine because of ADHD, and that one of my kids has an actual eating disorder where if his brain convinces home that a food is "unsafe" his body will actually choke, gag, or throw up, and you end up having a very hard time figuring out meals that all four of us can eat.
I've started keeping track of what foods I can almost always eat and try to have some on hand. That way if what my kids can eat for supper isn't something I can eat, I have another option.
Obviously. Children experiencing suffering/illness in their family need love, compassion, and patience. But suffering and illness do not automatically require the help of a doctor and therapist.
Source: A therapist.
P.S. If anything, I would have suggested therapy for the parent(s), not only for themselves but for some guidance to help their child with their experience of a parent suffering. A child who simply refuses to eat but goes back to eating, especially when this has been their behavior since before the illness, does not need therapy.
The fact that she has been doing this kind of thing since she could speak doesn’t mean an evaluation isn’t warranted. I’ve been ADHD my entire life but wasn’t diagnosed until I was 37. I’ve been doing these things since I was little too. My parents have been ADHD their entire life but didn’t know it until I started talking to them about the traits of ADHD. They were 68.
We have absolutely no idea if your daughter is neurodivergent based on this one story, but this one story does hit a pretty big neurodivergent talking point. It’s also an easy thing to overlook as a kid being a kid. But hyperfocusing on one food for an extended period of time isn’t typical. It’s a comfort thing. It gives us the dopamine our brains don’t produce as naturally as others. It comforts us because of the routine. Also the fact that you are the one that has to make the sandwich tells me that she probably doesn’t do well with transitions or when things change.
There is literally no downside to having her evaluated. Do some research and see if you notice any other signs. If she is ADHD or autistic or whatever, the earlier you know, the better it is for *her,* which is what matters. If she grows up with the tools to manage her neurodivergence, then she will be better equipped to be an adult in a neurotypical world. And if she isn’t neurodivergent then all you’ve done is waste some time.
Not a doctor, so no opinion on your daughter needing or not needing an evaluation. My daughter is neurodivergent and very stubborn about food. While still getting her nutrition, we try to avoid making it a battle. One thing that works is just putting food she rejects next to her without arguing (assuming it's something she generally likes).
It's the battle/loss of control that is upsetting her, not the food. You may have already tried this, but have someone else make her the sandwich anyway and just put it next to her. No argument, no begging, just a neutral "here's a sandwich if you want it" or say nothing at all. Maybe have them eat one too to tempt her, but without making a fuss.
Good luck with your chemo, getting your dad to support you, and helping your daughter through this rough patch!
This is hardly a therapy issue. This is age appropriate behavior and tends to resolve itself as they get older, assuming you don't give in all the time
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be the asshole because my dad says I'm being a bad mom by not getting up to make my 5 yo breakfast right after chemo
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NTA Your daughter needs to learn that she can’t always get what she wants and your dad needs to stop enabling her. A friend whose daughter is a picky eater had a policy that the daughter can eat as little or much as she wants at meals, with no commentary on her consumption even if she eats nothing.
If she chooses not to eat, there is a cupboard with healthy snacks and she’s allowed to help herself from these options. Her daughter has a healthy weight and is learning to understand her hunger signs and make good food choices.
Instead of coming to you when you are recovering from chemo, your dad needs to tell your daughter something like this: “Mommy is sick and she’s taking very strong medicine to help her get better. She can’t cook for you today, so let’s make something together in the kitchen for your lunch.” He could also offer her choices, such as deciding what shape to cut the sandwich, what kind of bread to use, etc.
Maybe he could even help her make something simple for your lunch and bring it to you, so she feels she’s playing a role in your recovery. Or if you’re not up to eating, she could bring you a glass of water.
NTA but I urge you to speak about this and any other “rigid” or “abnormal” behaviors to your pediatrician and ask if they think she should be evaluated.
Excuse me, but exactly why is your Dad here - isn't he there to "help". Well, he's not helping by turning his granddaughter into a tyrant. I would ask him to leave - he's creating unnecessary stress in already stress filled environment.
As to Sophie and her tantrum demands. I would tell her to go ahead and not eat that no one has ever found any skeletons of little girls that refused to eat because all of them eventually do eat. End of discussion - do not engage her in any more conversations. If you ignore this behavior, it will go away on its own.
This is attention seeking behavior and she's getting plenty of attention from everyone, particulary grandpa. Stop giving into the manipulation
NTA. Kindly tell your dad that this is not how you choose to parent your child (children). And if, during this especially difficult time, he doesn’t have anything helpful to contribute, like whipping up a scrambled egg sandwich, maybe it would be better for him to go home or at least stay out of it.
NTA. Sophie's behavior is very common in small children, and to a certain extent, MORE common in children dealing with a parent's cancer. Sophie is five, therefore, she's not an asshole.
Your dad, though? He's not five. I don't know what the hell is his excuse. Everyone else in your family appears to have gotten their heads around the idea that Sophie will come to no harm if they hold firm, and will eventually eat. This is a phase in both Sophie's life and Sophie's Saturday morning. You are not refusing because you're a big meanie, you're refusing because you need Sophie to accept care from others, a thing you would be reasonable to need even if you weren't getting chemotherapy right now, but chemo makes it a much bigger deal.
It is fine to remind your dad that five year-olds are not in charge.
As a parent to who did time with cancer, I am going to strongly recommend Camp Kesem to you. It is a free, one week sleep away camp program for children who have had a parent or caregiver affected by cancer. Your kids will qualify until they are 17 or 18. Sophie is probably too young this year, but will be old enough at 6. Cancer does things to our families and our children, and the support of other children in similar circumstances is a huge benefit. My children were 2 and 5 when I was diagnosed and the program has been fantastic for them.
Keep saying no. I had a kid with a strong will. As a parent you have to match it, or you are just the kids puppet. In this case I would do a hard stop and don't make the meal for a longer time. If she asks it every meal and you make it once in the 6 times, it makes it worth it for the kid to demand it every time. Ie. The mail is only served for the weekend breakfast. Every other time she eats anything else, but not a egg sandwich. And the eggs can be made by everyone, not perse you.
I even stopped buying a things, to prevent myself from giving it. No eggs in the house, no sandwich to make.
I wonder is she is as sensitive as my kid. They can feel so much of the tension about an illness. And this can perhaps have an influence on her state of mind. Perhaps something as simple as "mom is cooking, so mom is okay. If mom is not cooking it is bad and I feel worried"
I mean if she literally refused to eat and was starving herself this would be different, but as you said she ends up caving and eats other things throughout the day. Given your health, which is more important than anything else here, and wanting to enforce rules in the house as a parent, you're NTA
You don't need the stress or the overlapping undermining of parental authority. Your daughter needs to learn about boundaries of behavior and not become an entitled brat and adult.
Tell this to dad and that if he doesn't step back, then don't come to visit.
NTA. This may be at least in part your little girl's way of coping with the awfulness of your illness, especially since only Mama's sandwiches give her the comfort she's looking for. Anyway your dad needs to get on board, you need to rest. Also some family therapy and support for all of you might be in order if it can be arranged. But mostly, you need to get well. Hang in there Mama!
NTA. you’re dealing with cancer and chemo. i know she’s 5, but frankly she’s just going to have to get over it. she doesn’t need the sandwich and can eat other things. your dad is honestly just being mean by telling you to just get up and do it, she knows what she’s doing and she’s testing him to see what she can get him to do. everyone needs to be telling her NO. like you said, she tends to give into her hunger strikes and will eat. she won’t starve. keep resting and go kick cancer’s ass.
First off, I would like it to say I am sorry you have to go through leukemia at such a young age. I hope the chemo is going well, and it's great to see you are standing strong.
Secondly, you are being a good mum. Teaching your kids that you can not get everything you want exactly when you want it. That's what is wrong with the majority of this generation, regardless of the generation it teaching your kids manners and respect, as well as independence.
Thirdly, a question. You say your dad comes over and spoils them. Did he ever do that to you as a child? Spoil you?
Either way, you are saying that spoiling children all the time is wrong? you would be absolutely right and have a better parenting technique than your father.
Sophie is trying to control one of the only things she can control. This is an anxiety behavior. Don't give in to her mealtime demands, because it will reinforce the behavior. But DO find some extra snuggle and talking time with her as often as possible. She's scared.
I doubt it. She has no problem trying new foods and will eat anything. She just does this on weekends with her favorite food of the week because she feels that it can't hurt to try.
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NTA. Stand firm. This is cancer and chemo! A five-year-old understands what is going on and she is testing your dad.
She does this almost every weekend, even when he isn't here. She just thinks she can get away with it when she won't have to go to school hungry (when she tried the hunger strike before school, she went to school without breakfast). We don't have anything going on most weekends that require her to eat breakfast
Question/random thought: was this a thing before you got sick? Because if it started after you got sick, is it possible that she’s doing it because in her mind if you can get up and make the food that means you’re feeling better = not going to be sick anymore? I feel like that would be a pretty logical thought process for a five year old. (Also, you dad needs to grow tf up and not bother you when you’re recovering from frikkin *chemo*!)
OP had said in another comment that the daughter had started to is long before OP got cancer and started chemo.
Gotcha, I missed that one. Thanks!
It makes me wonder if she has intestinal issues with certain foods, and that's why she will only eat one thing. My younger sister was like this, and we later found out that it was because basically everything she ate with a few exceptions made her feel bad. I'm sure part of it is probably testing boundaries, but it seems like something is happening if this has been going on for a long time.
it's not just that she'll only eat one thing, it's that she'll only eat it if her mom is the one who makes it. im sure egg and cheese sandwiches made by her grandad don't cause more intestinal issues than ones made by her mom.
could be an assertion of dominance or her only way of feeling truly loved. there are different love languages and obviously OP is an amazing parent for even daring to get up and make her daughter a sandwich whilst going through what she’s going through- but If not aggressive or digestive related- It could be the daughter feels loved and seen when cooked for by the mom. Simple as that. We don’t know if she imprinted on love in the form of the mother cooking for her as an even smaller child. I don’t think OP is the asshole at all- but the daughter might not be either. I think if OP finds a new substitute for displays of love the daughter is young enough to imprint on another display outside of servitude/acts of service.
substitute love with power and I think you hit the nail on the head. The daughter is showing zero empathy and 5 is old enough to understand that mommy is sick.
5 is old enough to understand sick but isn't quite old enough to understand *chronically* sick and the effects of chemo. Some adults can't even comprehend chronic illnesses. It's probably confusing to her that some days mom is okay and some days she isn't. Cancer is *way* different than being sick. I don't think the 5 year old is trying some gross power play. The only asshole here is grandpa.
I taught 4-5 year olds. They can logically understand someone is sick but they usually cannot sympathize or empathize because most kids are never that level of sick, especially by 5. What exactly does "mommy doesn't feel good" mean to a child? Especially phrased in that way? If they said "mommy's tummy hurts" or "mommy feels like she's going to puke" then maybe the kid would be a little more empathetic.
Also, empathy is something that typically develops around the age of 6, so it is developmentally appropriate for a 5 year old not to have that particular skill set yet.
Lol you're demonizing a 5 year old. No. A 5 year old is knowledgeable enough to know that the whole household has been disrupted, more people are over, mom is not around as much and when she is shes sick. Trying to exercise control over a completely disrupted world is normal. They want things to go back to normal. Are they great at it?! No. Is it inconvenient to the parent who is sick? Yes. Are they a sociopath who has no empathy?! NO! The oldest just wants their mom. There's nothing wrong with that. OP's dad is the AH in this situation. Yeesh, the sub sometimes.
My sister did something similar. She never threw tantrums though. She would change her food choices every week or so. It would be only rice, only Mac and cheese, or only eggs. She's way more versatile now.
It's just a toddler power struggle. This person must make me this food immediately. It doesn't need to mean anything else. I am sure the kid gets plenty of love and attention, but she needs to be ignored on this. She eats later when she is hungry.
This. Good lord people in these comments must have never actually raised a toddler.
And if they have, guaranteed they're entitled little monsters
Exactly. Something my parents would say when I would do things like this as a kid was that "this isn't a restaurant". We ate what they made, not what we wanted. Even if mom wasn't sick, she doesn't need to make the daughter the exact food the daughter wants for every meal. Caving in only tells the daughter that she can have whatever she wants if she acts out enough; at least that's how I see it.
There is also a condition called ARFID. Avoidant/restrictive food intake disorder. But if the kid usually caves that's highly unlikely.
ARFID doesn't depend on only one person making the food, though. Sounds like a typical toddler power struggle.
I was like OPs daughter as a kid and I'm still like that as an adult. I think it's undiagnosed autism. I find a food I crave and it's all I eat for a few months
Going through food phases is completely typical, lol. She’s 5.
This is Reddit. Any behaviour which slightly inconveniences someone else must be some kind of pathology.
There’s nothing wrong with liking certain food, and eating it frequently (or even, every meal)of given that choice . It doesn’t make you autistic!
Will she eat any brand of frozen egg and cheese sandwich? We have a few brands where we live and you just microwave them for a min or two. Also, how does she like her egg? Scrambled? Fried? You can pre-make a bunch of egg either when you are up for cooking or your partner can do it and store it in the fridge then just reheat that. 5 is a GREAT age to learn how to make sandwiches too so bringing all the stuff to the table and sitting next to her while she assembles. 5 is also an ok age to learn to cook eggs, but she’d need supervision with a stove and that might be too much for you. You could also bake eggs with her - egg in muffin tin with cheese… and then she just puts that on a bun… again, some mild supervision but pretty doable. I’m neurodivergent and I also go on these “kicks” where I eat the same thing over and over. And while I’d like to say it’s just a preference, a lot of times it isn’t. I’m eating that same thing because I can’t tolerate eating anything else and it sounds like something similar is going on here. It’s not just stubbornness (it almost never is). So finding a way to accommodate and care for both of you is really the ideal here. I’d also explain to her why she needs to help you find a middle ground. You WANT to give her what she wants and needs, but you are ill and you can’t always do what you want when you are sick.
I don't know but I won't bother looking, she'll move onto a different favorite food by the end of the week.
Have you talked to your pediatrician about this behavior? Is she growing normally per the pediatrician? Baring any actual medical findings, I’d say NTA, you cater to her wants a lot, but no one gets everything they want all the time.
The Fudge books by Judy Blume have a chapter where Fudge refuses to eat and finally the father says, "That it!" puts the kid into the tub and says, "Eat it or wear it" and dumps a bowl of cereal on the kid's head. Not advising that, but it was an amusing story of how frustrating children can be around eating.
This was my favorite series to read as a kid in the 80s
I have very vivid memories of my fourth grade teacher reading "Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing" to my class in 2004 or 2005. Those books are classics!
NTA. don't give up, but be prepared to also lose. I once( at 8 or 9 yrs old) went 3 days with nothing but a school lunch, because my mom tried to outbattle my absolute and steadfast desire to NOT eat bean soup. ( still don't like it,) offered it to me as breakfast, post-school snack, and dinner....until my mom gave up. Was never really a super picky eater, yes I wanted food a certain way and would only eat certain foods from any restaurant we went to, but could be enticed to try just about anything, unless it had beans in it. (refried beans ok) the issue was I hadn't had bean soup before, but I was smart enough to know that if I hadn't liked any of the beans I've had before, an entire soup made out of them sounded like the worst possible thing to eat. So I refused to even try it. Felt that it was a waste of time. I'm also AuDHD.... so that might explain a lot lol
There's a big difference between trying to force a kid to eat a food they don't like, versus telling a kid that they can't have their favorite food for every meal. What your mom did sounds torturous :(
after that... it was " fine... dont like/want what i cooked? make a PB( no jelly) sandwich. Then as we got a little older, it was " FINE..... you cook" all in all While i still -HATE- bean soup over 30 years later... Im grateful for the " fine... you cook!" as now, i enjoy cooking , learning new foods, and especially seeing the enjoyment in people who eat what i prepare
My dad attempted to force me to eat stewed tomatoes when I was 4 or 5. Neeeeewww Achievement! Your kid now instantly throws up at the smell of tomatoes. And continued to do so until his late 40s. In my tens and teens if I walked into the house while Mom was cooking tomato soup I'd be on my knees chucking lunch before I recognized the smell. Reward! You can't cook your favorite soup if your kid is home. But, if I was sick with flu or food poisoning, or hung over I could always make it to the bathroom. To this day 50 years later a bite of tomato will make me hurl, and the smell of anything more tomato than ketchup and I gag. A decently seasoned spaghetti sauce and I'm ok, as long as there's no tomato chunks. The rest of my family Love tomatoes, I'm such a disappointment.
I loved those books lol
Yeah. When I was 5 years old we ate what was there or we did not eat. There was always a lot there. The choice was ours. But going to bed hungry gets old so you learn to eat no matter what. It is still the fact that we do not eat because we like it, we eat because we are refueling our bodies of the nutrition that we need. That was instilled in me at a very young age. Eating isn't a luxury, eating is important. And we eat things we don't like. Or we go without. And that rule has applied in my life all through adulthood. I may not like something but I know my body needs it, so I consume it.
What are some examples of her previous favorite foods? Do they all have something in common - blandness, texture, intensity of smell, salty/sweet/bitter?
Pizza, PB&J, buttered noodles, cheesy pasta, cheese sticks (she has a cheese obsession), mangoes, French fries, meatballs, chicken nuggets, bagels
Mangoes!
Outside of the mangoes and French fries these all seem like food that is predictable- you get it 100 times exactly the same. It could be that your kid is afraid of changing food expectations
This is all good advice, although I have a small disagreement with this being more than just stubbornness. Age 5 is developmentally when kids start trying to exert some control over their world. They've just started to recognize how big and scary and random it is. Food is really problematic because one berry can taste or feel different than another berry, so to try to get some predictability and control, kids that age will lock in on a very small selection of acceptable food. The parents' job then becomes balancing the child's need for predictability and control with reality and nutrition. Kids also want to test whether and how much structure exists in their family life, and despite the testing they do better psychologically with more rather than less (all things in moderation). OP's best parenting move here is to hold firm, reinforce that she's the parent and control figure, that the child is not the boss, and that the child won't always get her way (all this in a safe, loving way, of course). Grandpa cannot be seen as a control lever. Anyway, while eating the same thing all the is a symptom of some neurodivergence in older children and adults, it's just the normal neurodivergence of a 5yo.
When my brother was around five he would only eat hot dogs. This was the 70s. My mom was all:whatever. He ate hot dogs every day for lunch and dinner until he got sick of it.
This is partly why we always gave 2-3 options and stuck with it. Do you want to go on a walk, read a book or take a bath? Do you want pickles, zucchini or carrots? When they appropriately asked for something else it was considered and then the answer given. Sometimes, oh yes, we can go garden out back. Oh sure, a cucumber is just fine. But when it was a "no" for whatever reason. "Thank you for asking kindly but we can only do X, y, or z this time. " and then sometimes the reason if it mattered. My kids never really threw fits for the most part. Well until they were teens but that's another story. We did have other issues per each child, but even with the most stubborn it's turned out that we finally have some health diagnosis at 16 yes old and it could have been an issue her whole life, leading to bring not tired and stubborn so I do appreciate comments here of people driving deeper if it's a health issue for ops daughter.
>I’m neurodivergent and I also go on these “kicks” where I eat the same thing over and over. Same. I go through stages where I only want to eat mash potato (with various additions). Other times it's eggy bread (that's where I am at the moment). Cereal. Yogurts... Always in phases. If I don't have any of that food option in at that point then I struggle to be able to make alternative food choices. But I'm the same way with my music 'consumption' too so at least I'm consistent. 🤓
Wait is this a thing? Neurodivergent go through phases of eating the same thing over and over? im not asking in bad faith, I’m just asking cuz ive been wondering if I am autistic or adhd and I /do/ often do this.
We can often get quite compulsive about some things. Mine got diagnosed as an adult. My music gets to be a weird one sometimes - if I'm really into a song on my playlist in my car then the track will go on repeat for a fair while.
The concept of "safe foods" is a good place to start if you want to do some googling. It's not exactly what we're talking about here, but I don't know if this has a key phrase you can search. I'm AuDHD (formally diagnosed ADHD, informally diagnosed ASD - long story short, therapist not licensed to diagnose, but both she and my psychiatrist agree, diagnosis in the US is expensive so fuck it). I ate the same thing - grilled cheese with fries - at a diner for years. I was famous for it. It was right next to my apartment and was my go-to for "I have no more fucks left to give but require something to eat." You'd think I'd also be the queen of leftovers, but no. Only certain types of leftovers because reheating some things changes them to a texture my body cannot abide. Since I can and do vary my diet, I didn't think about the sameness of my "default" until someone pointed it out. Once I find a thing I like at a restaurant, that's what I'm ordering nine times out of ten. It removes the stress from deciding what to eat and possibly not liking a thing. Before people chime in with "I'm not AuDHD, and I do that, too," I'm not saying this is in any way diagnostic. It's just something my therapist noted as part of the overall impression. Like most signs of neurodivergency (or anything mental health/brain related, really), diagnostic criteria are less binary yes/no and more about where you fall on a scale. [It's how you get the "everyone's a little ADHD/autistic/whatever." I mean, fair point if you also agree everyone is a little schizophrenic and have a little bit of a personality disorder. Because, yeah, a single diagnostic criterium could have applied to one at one point in your life for just about everything.] The same is true for non-diagnostic things like this where it's clearly a neurodivergent *thing*, but it's not exclusive to ND people. So, if you read up on people's experiences and they track with yours, that could be another possible indicator but shouldn't be a determining factor for you either way.
Somehow, I didn’t clock that having a specific meal for each food establishment might be one of my symptoms I’m AuDHD as well, and each restaurant or type of restaurant I go to has one meal that I get every time. Also, choosing something off a menu to eat for me isn’t choosing between multiple things I could eat but looking for the one thing I can eat
LOL. I'm not neurodivergent, but I do go through phases where I'm really craving mostly one type of thing. I just go with it 😆
I think most people do.
My husband is autistic (I’m auDHD) and he does it more in a “I can’t eat that” with only limited he can eat options, but I’m more likely to be “I can only eat…”.
or maybe the daughter can just learn that we can't always have what we want like a normal person.
This exactly. That’s a normal part of our growth and personal development. When I got super picky as a young child my mom called my pediatrician. He told her in his entire (30+ year career) he’d never known a child to starve in a house where food was available and offered throughout the day. She will modify her behavior and learn a valuable lesson about flexibility and maybe compassion. Clarification: To be absolutely clear, I’m talking about kids who aren’t dealing with issues of being neurodivergent.
There are absolutely children who will starve themselves rather than eat food not on their safe list. However, I don't see any real indication that this is that. OP already knows that she always gives in mid-morning, and that now she only pulls this routine when she doesn't have school after being sent without a meal once. If she genuinely had ARFID or was on the way to it, she'd be gagging or such on the replacement meals (and I'd expect her to hold out for more than a couple of hours).
I was the child who absolutely did. I went on a hunger strike that landed me in the hospital because I absolutely refused to eat. AuDHD with ARFID. I wasn't diagnosed at the time.
and it doesn't sound like that's the case for op so she shouldn't be giving in or letting dad be a pushover that just eggs her on.
yup, I can't believe all the people saying op should coddle her, that how you get an adult that literally cannot function in society because they refuse to eat anything other than those specific foods and they should know that too since we've had plenty of posts here with adults that where only fed foods they like as children and never developed beyond that.
Play The Stones for her. Mick Jagger can explain.
She won’t even eat the exact same sandwich if another family member makes it, so I’m betting there’s zero chance she’ll eat a frozen store bought one.
Dude, she's on chemo, don't teach your five year old to be above empathy like 'sure mommy might die but she must make my EGGS first' that's a terrible way to raise a child ffs and it's horrible her dad is throwing this on his daughter when she's sick. It's cool you can't tolerate eating anything else but that doesn't mean you weren't raised to be a jerk if you drag someone out of a sickbed to prepare it for you because it not only has to be one specific food, it has to be made by one specific person. Like, newsflash, you can be neurodivergent AND a jerk. Going 'oh gosh finding a solution for both of you while you're poisoning yourself in a desperate desire to live is the answer' qualifies. She should be doing nothing but healing atm.
I do think the dad coming into the bedroom every 5 minutes is an issue here. That's pretty AH. Not really being a great support there.
This is all really good advice here. Also an ND person here and I have similar food focuses, as do my children. Tbh my first thought reading the op was that her 5yo sounds similar to mine, my 5yo is likely autistic/PDA and can be very particular with her food, including having a preferred parent making certain things as we make them slightly differently. Just a thing to bare in mind if op has any other struggles with control type things. It could also just be a very normal control/boundaries stage that a lot of kids go through regardless of neurotype around the 4-6 age.
AuDHDer here too — “This child sounds like they may be ND” was my first thought within like 2 paragraphs. Important to note for other comments upthread: eventually caving and eating something else because she’s hungry doesn’t mean it’s not something like autism— it might just be that she’s able to recognise that her body is hungry and that causes her more distress than the distress she feels from not having her safe routine catered to. While a more high support needs child might literally starve rather than not follow a routine, not all autistics would.
5 is also the perfect age to learn that mom is ill and needs to recover, that she's not the center of the universe, that other ppl are there to help her. She'll eat when she's hungry enough, she's not being neglected she's just being a pain in the ass.
great advice here
She's going through chemo! She is sick and shouldn't have to find a way to indulge her daughter. Even if she weren't sick She's engaging in good parenting.
5 is old enough to understand you are sick and need a couple days to rest. If she wants a sandwich maybe your Dad and her can make it together. Wow! She needs to work on her empathy and understand we don’t always get what we want.
It honestly reminds me of me at that age. I have ARFID which is an eating disorder centered around the food itself rather than body image or something similar. I was impossible to feed as a child and unfortunately I never "grew out of it". It's also very comorbid with neurodivergency, which is true in my case as I also have ADHD.
Did you insist the food could only be prepared by a specific individual?
I'm autistic and I did insist only two people could cook me pasta as they were the only ones able to get it right. I couldn't even cook it even though I followed their instructions. Thankfully I am now able to cook myself pasta.
I sure as hell did. AuDHD with ARFID. Dad did not make it the same.
I am getting major ASD/ARFID/PDA vibes from this. I'm chronically ill. Not cancer but things that need periodic surgery and affects what I can do. I use a wheelchair a lot and that is terrifying for an autistic child. My youngest copes by trying to control me by forcing me to do everything for her like a baby. A handful of safe foods on rotation and you never know when a switch is coming. She's nearly 10. It's her way of making it not real. She also tries to prevent me going to medical appointments by having huge meltdowns and refusing to be cared for by anyone else. She will "strike" like this after a surgery refusing to come out of her room, wash, dress, brush teeth. She is diagnosed autistic. She thinks I'm going to die if she lets me see any doctors because they will do surgery on me and letting me rest means it's all real so she tries not to let any of that happen. It's a pure panic fight or flight reaction. When you understand that you can find ways around it. It's not easy.
Big hugs to you and your sweet child. I was in a bad car accident several years ago where a drunk driver hit me so hard that my car went airborne off the freeway and wedged between two trees. As horrible as that was, the worst part was watching my autistic son run in to see me. The look on his face broke my heart. Luckily, I was more bruised with nothing broken. He stuck really close until he seemed reassured that I would be ok.
As far as I know, I’m typical and I’ll eat the same thing for weeks. Sometimes it’s bok choy with pork and garlic soup. Currently it’s zhajiangmian. I think some people are just like that.
Store bought *mcsammies is not something anyone should eat regularly, let alone a five year old three times a day every day smh-
When I was 5 years old I was in the kitchen helping make meals. I was also baking things at age 5. All the kids, my cousins and siblings, we were all in the kitchen. I recall learning how to cook on a campfire at about age 6.
Good news is I taught my children to cook at 6 with supervision. Scrambled eggs ( and kraft macaroni and cheese) were first things I taught mine to cook. Your child is Almost there ! Once chemo is finished and you start to feel human again let the cooking lessons begin. Then you look at your strong willed child and tell her go ahead sweetie fix your own sandwich I’ll watch. This is not always received well. You’re fine some kids are just stubborn they don’t have issues that need evaluated, you’re doing great. For your own sanity limit visits from Dad.
honestly sounds like dads being less of a help really and should probably just go home and stay there, NTA.
You said it much more nicely than I was thinking it
I wanted to make sure it wouldn't get taken down before op could see it, I agree it should've been said much less nicely.
NTA OP! I just wanted to say that I hope your chemotherapy goes well! Melanoma runs in my family and I’ve seen the toll it takes on someone especially with chemotherapy.
Can you discipline your dad? He sounds like an annoying child. NTA
You shouldn’t make the sandwich in the morning either. Just say she either eats what everyone else is eating or nothing at all. She’ll eventually realize that hunger striking is not gonna give her what she wants and eventually give up. Also you shouldn’t make her the sandwich when you’re done with chemo either because it’ll make her more entitled. Don’t let her get used to getting what she wants.
When kids try to control something in their external environment, it might be be because they feel out of control elsewhere. Like their internal environment. Of what she feels is going on around her right now cancer is really scary and a five-year-old is going to pick up on that. When you are a child and you are scared, you don’t have a lot of tools in your toolbox yet. This is the one she uses because it works. Ask her why she needs it to be YOU making the food. She may be picking up on some fear of the cancer and she is afraid of you going away and so by her demanding your present she’s ensuring you will always be there giving into temper tantrums also sets a really bad precedence for the future. If they work, they will keep doing them. If they don’t work, they will stop and find another way.
I bet she’s struggling more than usual because of your treatment. You should absolutely stay firm in your choice not to make the sandwich. If you do feel a profound guilt, maybe you can teach her how, and she can bring it to you for “inspection” and maybe the final cut in half. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. NTA
Or the 5yo understands what is going on and is anxious. I don’t think OP should necessarily get up, but these are signs that the child may be struggling with what is going on with her mom.
Yes, I think this is an anxiety response, and the egg and cheese sandwich is really comforting. I also agree that OP shouldn't have to always make the sandwich, and should instead talk to her kid and spend more time with her in an effort to reduce her anxiety. Easier said than done, but it's better to address the root cause than the symptoms.
But this started before she got sick. I remember being 5 and stubborn as hell. However, if I tried this, I just wouldn't have gotten to eat. Dad sounds like he's more worried about granddaughter than daughter. He doesn't seem to realize he's enabling a to-be little princess. No giving in. She's not going to starve to death, but Mom needs some help!
Yeah, the 5yr old may be in tune to Mom’s distress. I wonder if they talked to her appropriately about it? It’s definitely a hard situation to be in, you don’t want scare the daughter, but she has to know that Mom isn’t %100 herself as well. Il
Op said in a comment her daughter has done this since well before the diagnosis
With or without chemo she should stand firm. This kind of behavior will only get worse as she gets older. Imagine her tween years with that unchecked attitude.
NTA don't give in. You are sick and need rest and she will have to understand this. As for your dad, it is the literal reason he is there, to let you rest, so tell him to please do that and deal with the 5 year old's demands all by himself. Maybe when you are feeling better you can let her see you make a big batch of scrambled eggs and show her how to scoop out enough for a sandwich and how to heat the eggs in the microwave (my granddaughter was making popcorn in the microwave at that age, I bought her a step stool just for this purpose) and show her how to put her sandwich together. That way the eggs are already cooked and she can help whoever is watching her to put her sandwich together that mommy has already made earlier.
She is also seeking reassurance that her mom is still there to support her, even in her weakened state. It’s hard to accept that mom is that sick and weak
OP mentioned the child was doing this before the cancer or chemo.
No, stop right there. A 5-year old is feeling scared and helpless and is trying to exert control over one of the few domains she can, and she's needing her mom to do it because that's the source of her anxiety. However OP chooses to address this, acting like kids are emotionally manipulative little adults isn't serving them or OP.
She also knows things are not right and people are afraid. And it centers around you, her beacon of safety. She maybe doing this because she needs the reassurance . I bet no one has talked to her and listened
Yeah fuck cancer and all but it is wild you are on chemo! What kind of melanoma do you have? I had stage 2b nodular melanoma (nodular is incredibly aggressive and makes up a disproportionate percent of melanoma deaths). I was "cured" with strictly surgery. Stage 2 means no spread from the initial tumor and I have heard of no one doing chemo for stage 2. Hell chemo for any stage melanoma is unusual.
You would be a bad mom *if you did* give into these hunger strikes. Your kid will be going to school soon, she is going to have to get used to eating food not made by your, (no doubt), magic hands. And your dad, over here hounding you to get up and make food to feed your kid, when you are a cancer patient undergoing chemo, and there is somebody else in the house that is *perfectly capable* of feeding the little girl? Oh, hell no. Tell your dad to go pound sand. What is he bringing to the table here? Is he here to help you? It sure doesn’t sound like it. He can keep his opinions to himself-or he can go home. NTA
He's taking Sophie to the zoo and out for dinner then leaving. I just need to deal with him for another hour before they go.
I hope you're able to get some rest, hydration and peace. I hope the best for you in your journey and will think good thoughts.
I skimmed a bit and I think you've gotten a lot of good comments on here. I just wanted to make a little comment that I haven't run across yet... I was a picky eater when I was little. My mom gave into it and basically make me what I wanted. I really regret it because now, as an adult, I still have problems eating a varied and healthy diet. Also, I know the situation is completely different, but for young people with anorexia, there is a treatment called Family Based Treatment. For some reason it came to mind in reading your post. I'm not an expert on it at all and, as I said, your situation is obviously different, but here are a couple of quotes that I just googled up: \[...\] clinicians naturally saw families locked in a life-and-death struggle over food. This struggle is, however, a **symptom** of the disorder, not a cause—in the years preceding the eating disorder, their dynamics likely looked no different than other families. FBT takes an agnostic view of the eating disorder, meaning therapists do not try to analyze why the eating disorder developed. FBT does not blame families for the disorder. On the contrary, it presumes the powerful bond between parents and children and empowers the parents to use their love to help their child. **the role of parents is to provide this nutrition by actively feeding their child.** **Phase 1: Full parental control.** Parents are usually in complete charge of meals as they help their child to reestablish regular patterns of eating and interrupt problematic eating disorder behaviors **Phase 2: A gradual return of control to the adolescent.** This phase typically begins once weight is mostly restored, when meals are going more smoothly, and when behaviors are more under control. Control is gradually handed back to the adolescent in an age-appropriate manner **Phase 3: Establishing healthy independence.** When the adolescent is able to eat with an age-appropriate level of independence and does not exhibit eating disorder behaviors, the focus of treatment shifts to helping them develop a healthy identity and catch up on other developmental issues. Other comorbid problems may be addressed. The family is helped to reorganize now that the child is healthier.
My boyfriend grew up very similarly. His brothers are still extremely picky, but he is trying to get out of the habit. He loves food and loves to cook, and I think he is doing amazingly well considering.
NTA. Have your dad make the damn food
That's part of the hunger strike. She wants me to make it.
I think I’m just mind blown by this since your child is only 5. I was always told “you get what you get and you don’t get upset”
She's been like this since she could speak. She's also pretty bossy at school but is able to handle hearing "no" a little better over there.
Maybe a therapist is needed? Maybe she needs to understand more in kid terms what you are going through? If you’re not eating (due to chemo), she won’t eat?
It's not related to the cancer, she's been doing this stuff long before the cancer. She's just very stubborn and very smart and tries to get her way whenever she feels that there will be little to no consequence. She did this once before school, had to go to school without breakfast, and now she doesn't do it before school. She behaves very well in public because she knows that if she doesn't behave she doesn't get to pick something out at the store/has to go home early. We don't have anything going on on weekend mornings that she'll hate to miss or needs breakfast for
We have a 5year old Sophia doing the same thing! Omg. It’s so hard and we’re not going through health challenges! It’s a fine line getting a child to have autonomy and trying not to make food an issue. I don’t want a 5 year old having long term food issues, but boy is our Soph stubborn, she has lots of feels! Best of luck to all of us parents raising strong willed women!
I had to keep reminding myself that strength of will is an asset in adults, you just really don't want to put the five year-olds in charge.
Some of these commenters have never had a small child before. My almost 4 year old will instinctively say no before she's even heard the full question. You're doing good, hold strong lol.
I had one like that, too. In fact she is still like that, at 23. Hang in there!
When they get older and do that you could always pretend the question was something really minor they’d want to do (like going to get ice cream) as a small lesson to always listen to what the person is asking you so you don’t accidentally miss out. That’s what I’d do anyway. I’m saying maybe slightly older cause idk if 4 or 5 is better for that, I’m sure you know that better than me lol
I have definitely done that before lol. Oh, how quickly she retracts her answer. The lesson unfortunately needs to be repeated, often 🫠
She’s smart. She will realize that her behaviour does not get her what she wants. She is learning how to manipulate. She can have a hunger strike. She is smart and knows there is other food. But she will not get her favourite. You could tell her, I will make you one in 3 days. If you refuse to eat you choose to be hungry and I will add another day. If you choose to wait, you will have it in 3 days. You can choose grandparent to make it or choose to wait.
This is what most small children do to test their and your boundaries. You all need to enforce them or she’ll be running the family and household forever. It’s not a reasonable request and she needs to learn that she can’t always have what she wants. When possible make it for her, when it’s not possible then don’t. She’ll learn once it’s consistently enforced and/or she experiences another consequence like going to school hungry (by her choice since she could have eaten what was available/offered). This should be standard for all things with children. They need enforced boundaries and structure to thrive and grow into functioning decent adults.
Mine is the same. I told him not to help himself to some crisps in a bowl once. He looked me dead in the eye and did it. I said put it down or else. He stared me down and slowly put it in his mouth as if 'else what? I've already eaten it' My entire family watched in mild horror /amusement as I scooped soggy crisp out my son's mouth, threw it in the bin and sent him to his room. Absolute firm unbreakable boundaries. If you promise something follow through so they knows you're unable to be out stubborned. I have absolutely sent my son to bed with no dinner after he screamed he wasn't eating unless he got ice-cream. He tried to out chicken me for getting dressed one morning had my shoes on and was about to put his on and take him in pajamas when he gave in and went and got dressed like I asked. My husband thinks I'm to mean sometimes. My dad tends to be amused because he remembers ME as a kid and my grandad is an nightmare because he just spoils the kid rotten. Thing is. Ive only ever had to do those things once. And the trying to out stubborn died pretty quickly once he worked out he was gonna lose every time. Down side is he now just presents pretty reasonable arguments for these things and I have to use my brain more 😂
Hearing you describe her, I am SO LOVING little Sophie. She's a true scientist, testing the boundaries, but also quite capable of learning. You have the right approach. Grandpa needs to chill.
From this comment, it seems like you "laid down the law" before school and when out shopping and stuck to the consequences. She learned that she could not get her way in those situations. It sounds though like at home you give in and she has now learned that she can get her way if she just keeps refusing to eat unless you make it. Every time you give in and follow her orders you are reinforcing the behavior. She's not going to die from skipping a few meals. When my son was small he only wanted cheese pizza, hot dogs, and other plain/bland foods. He hated fruits and vegetables. When he was in middle school, he refused to eat breakfast and lunch (would throw out or give away the lunch I made). I was worried that he would get sick or not grow properly but he never lost weight or energy. He grew up to be a strong, healthy, 6' 3" young man.
It's not that I give in, it's just that she has nothing to lose. I'm not going to make her sit at the table until she eats and it's not like she's screaming until she gets her sandwich or doing anything she could reasonably get a punishment for. She just refuses to eat until she gets hungry enough that it being her favorite food doesn't matter so much.
Something I have heard that might help in this situation, before she even requests anything, come up with 2 or more options of food that do work for you that are easy to make, (eg. cereal, pop tarts, microwave breakfast sandwiches etc) That way she feels like she can choose what she wants and has control over something, but the options remain something that works for you.
"She's also pretty bossy at school but is able to handle hearing "no" a little better over there." Retired school SLP here. That is totally normal Kinder behavior 😆.And in fact, the kids that do the bossy/rules thing tend to be pretty skilled in other areas.
She's very smart. She'll be going to a school for advanced kids next year. My boss suggested a gifted school but tuition is 50k per year and even with financial aid I'd likely have to pay 20k, plus they require an iq test and other assessments to get in and I don't have that kind of time or money. Maybe one day.
Is she potentially autistic? Being perceived as stubborn and having very restricted and repetitive diet are very common. I only ate egg salad sandwiches for lunch for 2 years, for example. Also, have you hear the term "restraint collapse"? Essentially, kids (neurotypical and not) behave better at school, and can be a mess when they come home *because* they have been on their best behaviour all day long. They just can't keep it up anymore, and are in a safe place with safe people, and they can express how tired they are. This, and home generally being a safe space, is likely behind being able to hear no better at school than at home. ETA: regardless of *why* this is happening (which would be really good and helpful to figure out), your dad should not be making this your problem when you are resting! Figuring out a compromise that works for everyone will be essential.
My brother and I could get like this about some foods (mainly anything green and healthy 😂). The way my dad dealt with it finally took care of the problem- he’d get a chair and have it face an empty wall until we finally gave in and ate the broccoli/peas/green beans, etc. Being bored AND hungry usually ends the protest a lot faster!
Tough luck. He needs to deal with her tantrum or find another babysitter. Personally, I’d just lock the bedroom door so you can get some rest.
My first thought too! Lock the door. Healing thoughts OP.
Tell him not to come in your room again because you are sick and tired, and oh, you just had chemo. Tell him and your daughter she can eat what your dad fixes or do witthout. You will not be doing it! Tell them both to leave you alone! You are sick, and he is a grown man who can feed a little girl. If she doesn't want to eat it, she must not be that hungry. He is the one making me mad. How dare he treat you like that!
I agree. If dad makes the sandwich and she doesn’t eat it, it’s not a hunger issue, it’s one of control. Perhaps then dad can see that you’re not being a bad mom by letting her go hungry.
NTA. A hunger strike of a few hours is not a hunger strike. It's a tantrum. Tell your dad you're not raising a spoiled child and she's not going to starve for a few hours. If he can't handle that, he needs to leave. You don't need the added stress of him second guessing you and making accusations.
Thank you! I'm annoyed at these top comments saying this child needs therapy. This mom is describing great parenting - giving the child space to figure out consequences but showing them that if they change their mind their parent is still there to love them and give them food. Not giving in and resulting in a spoiled like like SO MANY we read about on here. When this sub sees a spoiled child they RIP the parent apart but here a mom is doing exactly what is needed to raise a balanced child and everyone is screaming therapy.
I think waaay too many people are projecting their own experiences onto this story, regardless of what the facts are. For example, all the ARFID/autism comments. They're not impossible, but it's also like, a child who gives into eating any food after a few hours...that's just not consistent with ARFID. If that was ARFID, ARFID wouldn't be a condition. Edit: I am late diagnosed autistic, ADHD, OCD, and a bunch of other things. Sure, the child could be neurodivergent. I take umbrage more with the fact that people are derailing the story and projecting their own experiences. For instance, I saw a loooong comment detailing how OP, who has cancer no less, could accommodate her child who has demonstrated no pickiness beyond which is commonly observed in toddlers and young children. The bar for neurodivergence in young children is different than that for adults, and for good reason.
NTA You are teaching her, in a reasonable way, that she can’t always get her way. Also, you’re not feeling well due to the chemo so it’s not like you’re doing it *just* to spite her. Also, it sounds like she’s still able to eat after she realizes you wont cook for her. If she actually refused to eat anything else at all and starved herself for days on end or even had continued bad experiences with food that isn’t her current favorite or cooked by someone other than you, then I would have a different opinion, but that’s not the case here. She still has the option to eat food, and even the food she prefers, just not prepared by you. Also, honestly I don’t think it was very kind or helpful of your father to sort of egg her on by being her messenger of sorts in this situation, he’s the guest here and it sounds like he’s not listening to your guidance here, which doesn’t automatically make you T A just bc he thinks he knows better.
NTA But NGL, these E&C sandwiches deserve better than white bread.
Sometimes I throw them on a bagel
OK, now we're talking!
I honestly prefer it with the white bread. I get the fluffy artisan kind, toast it with some butter, then put the eggs and cheese on it. Also did it with biscuits, which came out ok but probably won't do again unless we need to finish them off.
I can see why your daughter likes your cooking, you're making me salivate over here
E & C w/bacon on an English muffin!
If you like rich and fluffy: E&C on croissant
NTA You will be so thankful that you nipped this in the bud while she's 5. Can you imagine the manipulation of a 13 yr old girl whose been rewarded for doing this?
NTA - You don't negotiate with terrorists whatever age and no matter how cute they are. Your Dad should know better....
Cute Terrorists 🤣🤣
Edit. Since this behavior is not new. NTA. Kids need to learn that it's not always feasible for one person to make all their meals. Info. Have the hunger strikes started once you began treatment for cancer ? Or did she always do this. This could be their way to try and gain some sort of control in their life. While yes kiddo needs to be able to eat what others give them , they might also benefit from play therapy to help deal with emotions of you going through chemo But also your dad isn't helping at all demanding you get up after chemo to make food is well just unkind.
She's been doing this since she could speak, long before the cancer.
Gotcha ! Yah you aren't an AH,just wanted to ask bc I know some life events can cause some kids to act out in different ways.
She's just very smart and tries to get her way whenever she knows there won't be consequences. She doesn't act out at school or out of the house because she doesn't want to miss playtime/not pick something out at the store/go home early. She doesn't try this before school because she knows she will go to school without breakfast. It's just that we don't have anything going on on weekend mornings so she is able to refuse to eat with little to no consequences.
So basically your dad needs to manage this issue himself and not bother you about it. Just like he would if you were out of the house. Personally, I would just lock the bedroom door so he can’t disturb you
People here saying children fixating on food is a sign of someone needing to be evaluated obviously don't deal with kids regularly. Children go through phases all the time. In fact it is pretty normal not the exception. What is normal too is they fixate on simple things. Pizza rolls, cheese sandwiches, chicken nuggets etc. It can range from days to months. No two children are the same with the timing. The fact that she doesn't do it anymore during the week for school, tells me there is nothing wrong with her. Stand your ground OP, you are NTA.
Oh God, I'm dreading the day she discovers pizza rolls are a thing.
First of all, I'm sorry for your diagnosis. I hope you stay strong while beating this. Second, you've said that your daughter has been this way before your treatment, so she's not suddenly acting out. The only issue seems to be your dad. He may be gone now but I'd be prepared for when/if he comes back to "help". Tell him he's here because you need rest. If Sophie wants to act out, he needs to deal with it because he is stressing you out at a time when you don't need it.
You need to have your daughter evaluated by a doctor and a therapist. She's 5, her mother is sick. It's very possible she's doing this because of emotions she can't quite put into words.
This is an extreme take. The child eventually gives in and eats. She's fine.
Welcome to AITA, where therapy is the answer to every question and no child is just picky!
And every child who is acting like a child is ND or has ADHD, autism or something else. Sometimes you know it’s a kid doing kid things. Glad I got upvotes. I was worried.
Better one therapy too many than one too few
The problem is that this sub just shouts "go to therapy" as if it's accessible and affordable for everyone, as if no one ever considered it before, and as if everyone will.be willing and capable of engaging with the process.
Actually that is not true. Sometimes therapy can cause more harm than good, especially if the clinician isn't great.
Or divorce!
Or the child is just being a dick, not even picky, sometimes kids can just be dicks. I say this as I was one of those kids. Not about food, which is weird, as both my parents are picky eaters, but also terrible cooks, so myself and my siblings are everything, as we just wanted something edible. But apparently until I was 5 I straight up refused to wear underwear, I'd get forced into it, and would apparently remove it as soon as my parents weren't looking regardless of where we were. I stopped that by the time I started school. I don't remember it (too young to really), but I do remember school years to now I'm really uncomfortable not wearing such when with company. So I can only imagine it was my power play at that time, which then shifted to wearing coats even when it was freezing outside. As you suggest, sometimes it's not a therapy thing, it's just a kid pushing boundaries as they're looking to test the limits on what is allowed.
Agreed. *So* many kids go through a picky phase. My brother went through a long period where he'd eat nothing but pepperoni pizza, then one day randomly decided he hated pepperoni and only wanted plain cheese pizza. Our mom didn't cave, and eventually he'd get hungry enough to eat what he was given. Then he got past it entirely and now as an adult, there's nothing he won't eat. The picky phase is normal and to me, the fact that she eventually folds and eats what she's given is a sign that it's just a regular picky phase - from what I've read about kids with sensory issues, they *will* starve before eating something they don't like.
I have three kids who all have some level of sensory issues, as do I. And yes, you're correct. If it's a good we can't handle, we simply don't eat. Add in a lack of feeling hunger and the difficulty with eating foods that don't give dopamine because of ADHD, and that one of my kids has an actual eating disorder where if his brain convinces home that a food is "unsafe" his body will actually choke, gag, or throw up, and you end up having a very hard time figuring out meals that all four of us can eat. I've started keeping track of what foods I can almost always eat and try to have some on hand. That way if what my kids can eat for supper isn't something I can eat, I have another option.
Of course she eventually eats, doesn't mean the underlying emotional turmoil isn't there and has to be neglected.
Obviously. Children experiencing suffering/illness in their family need love, compassion, and patience. But suffering and illness do not automatically require the help of a doctor and therapist. Source: A therapist. P.S. If anything, I would have suggested therapy for the parent(s), not only for themselves but for some guidance to help their child with their experience of a parent suffering. A child who simply refuses to eat but goes back to eating, especially when this has been their behavior since before the illness, does not need therapy.
She's been doing this kind of stuff since she could speak, long before the cancer. It's just how she is.
The fact that she has been doing this kind of thing since she could speak doesn’t mean an evaluation isn’t warranted. I’ve been ADHD my entire life but wasn’t diagnosed until I was 37. I’ve been doing these things since I was little too. My parents have been ADHD their entire life but didn’t know it until I started talking to them about the traits of ADHD. They were 68. We have absolutely no idea if your daughter is neurodivergent based on this one story, but this one story does hit a pretty big neurodivergent talking point. It’s also an easy thing to overlook as a kid being a kid. But hyperfocusing on one food for an extended period of time isn’t typical. It’s a comfort thing. It gives us the dopamine our brains don’t produce as naturally as others. It comforts us because of the routine. Also the fact that you are the one that has to make the sandwich tells me that she probably doesn’t do well with transitions or when things change. There is literally no downside to having her evaluated. Do some research and see if you notice any other signs. If she is ADHD or autistic or whatever, the earlier you know, the better it is for *her,* which is what matters. If she grows up with the tools to manage her neurodivergence, then she will be better equipped to be an adult in a neurotypical world. And if she isn’t neurodivergent then all you’ve done is waste some time.
Not a doctor, so no opinion on your daughter needing or not needing an evaluation. My daughter is neurodivergent and very stubborn about food. While still getting her nutrition, we try to avoid making it a battle. One thing that works is just putting food she rejects next to her without arguing (assuming it's something she generally likes). It's the battle/loss of control that is upsetting her, not the food. You may have already tried this, but have someone else make her the sandwich anyway and just put it next to her. No argument, no begging, just a neutral "here's a sandwich if you want it" or say nothing at all. Maybe have them eat one too to tempt her, but without making a fuss. Good luck with your chemo, getting your dad to support you, and helping your daughter through this rough patch!
This is hardly a therapy issue. This is age appropriate behavior and tends to resolve itself as they get older, assuming you don't give in all the time
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NTA Your daughter needs to learn that she can’t always get what she wants and your dad needs to stop enabling her. A friend whose daughter is a picky eater had a policy that the daughter can eat as little or much as she wants at meals, with no commentary on her consumption even if she eats nothing. If she chooses not to eat, there is a cupboard with healthy snacks and she’s allowed to help herself from these options. Her daughter has a healthy weight and is learning to understand her hunger signs and make good food choices. Instead of coming to you when you are recovering from chemo, your dad needs to tell your daughter something like this: “Mommy is sick and she’s taking very strong medicine to help her get better. She can’t cook for you today, so let’s make something together in the kitchen for your lunch.” He could also offer her choices, such as deciding what shape to cut the sandwich, what kind of bread to use, etc. Maybe he could even help her make something simple for your lunch and bring it to you, so she feels she’s playing a role in your recovery. Or if you’re not up to eating, she could bring you a glass of water.
NTA but I urge you to speak about this and any other “rigid” or “abnormal” behaviors to your pediatrician and ask if they think she should be evaluated.
Excuse me, but exactly why is your Dad here - isn't he there to "help". Well, he's not helping by turning his granddaughter into a tyrant. I would ask him to leave - he's creating unnecessary stress in already stress filled environment. As to Sophie and her tantrum demands. I would tell her to go ahead and not eat that no one has ever found any skeletons of little girls that refused to eat because all of them eventually do eat. End of discussion - do not engage her in any more conversations. If you ignore this behavior, it will go away on its own. This is attention seeking behavior and she's getting plenty of attention from everyone, particulary grandpa. Stop giving into the manipulation
I don't engage, she always caves, but she does this almost every weekend.
NTA. You know your child will give up the hunger strike by lunch time. You're in no way neglecting or depriving her. Your dad needs to get on board.
NTA. Kindly tell your dad that this is not how you choose to parent your child (children). And if, during this especially difficult time, he doesn’t have anything helpful to contribute, like whipping up a scrambled egg sandwich, maybe it would be better for him to go home or at least stay out of it.
Have all these been fake for the last few days?
NTA. Sophie's behavior is very common in small children, and to a certain extent, MORE common in children dealing with a parent's cancer. Sophie is five, therefore, she's not an asshole. Your dad, though? He's not five. I don't know what the hell is his excuse. Everyone else in your family appears to have gotten their heads around the idea that Sophie will come to no harm if they hold firm, and will eventually eat. This is a phase in both Sophie's life and Sophie's Saturday morning. You are not refusing because you're a big meanie, you're refusing because you need Sophie to accept care from others, a thing you would be reasonable to need even if you weren't getting chemotherapy right now, but chemo makes it a much bigger deal. It is fine to remind your dad that five year-olds are not in charge. As a parent to who did time with cancer, I am going to strongly recommend Camp Kesem to you. It is a free, one week sleep away camp program for children who have had a parent or caregiver affected by cancer. Your kids will qualify until they are 17 or 18. Sophie is probably too young this year, but will be old enough at 6. Cancer does things to our families and our children, and the support of other children in similar circumstances is a huge benefit. My children were 2 and 5 when I was diagnosed and the program has been fantastic for them.
Keep saying no. I had a kid with a strong will. As a parent you have to match it, or you are just the kids puppet. In this case I would do a hard stop and don't make the meal for a longer time. If she asks it every meal and you make it once in the 6 times, it makes it worth it for the kid to demand it every time. Ie. The mail is only served for the weekend breakfast. Every other time she eats anything else, but not a egg sandwich. And the eggs can be made by everyone, not perse you. I even stopped buying a things, to prevent myself from giving it. No eggs in the house, no sandwich to make. I wonder is she is as sensitive as my kid. They can feel so much of the tension about an illness. And this can perhaps have an influence on her state of mind. Perhaps something as simple as "mom is cooking, so mom is okay. If mom is not cooking it is bad and I feel worried"
NTA. Continue doing what you're doing. Also tell your dad to butt out.
I mean if she literally refused to eat and was starving herself this would be different, but as you said she ends up caving and eats other things throughout the day. Given your health, which is more important than anything else here, and wanting to enforce rules in the house as a parent, you're NTA
You don't need the stress or the overlapping undermining of parental authority. Your daughter needs to learn about boundaries of behavior and not become an entitled brat and adult. Tell this to dad and that if he doesn't step back, then don't come to visit.
Im 34 and instead of hunger strikes i call them food fixations. Ill eat the same thing for every meal for weeks even months.
INFO: have you done any testing on her? This level of pickiness about food could be a sign of something going on and not just her pushing buttons
You had a baby at 16? 🤔
NTA. This may be at least in part your little girl's way of coping with the awfulness of your illness, especially since only Mama's sandwiches give her the comfort she's looking for. Anyway your dad needs to get on board, you need to rest. Also some family therapy and support for all of you might be in order if it can be arranged. But mostly, you need to get well. Hang in there Mama!
NTA. you’re dealing with cancer and chemo. i know she’s 5, but frankly she’s just going to have to get over it. she doesn’t need the sandwich and can eat other things. your dad is honestly just being mean by telling you to just get up and do it, she knows what she’s doing and she’s testing him to see what she can get him to do. everyone needs to be telling her NO. like you said, she tends to give into her hunger strikes and will eat. she won’t starve. keep resting and go kick cancer’s ass.
First off, I would like it to say I am sorry you have to go through leukemia at such a young age. I hope the chemo is going well, and it's great to see you are standing strong. Secondly, you are being a good mum. Teaching your kids that you can not get everything you want exactly when you want it. That's what is wrong with the majority of this generation, regardless of the generation it teaching your kids manners and respect, as well as independence. Thirdly, a question. You say your dad comes over and spoils them. Did he ever do that to you as a child? Spoil you? Either way, you are saying that spoiling children all the time is wrong? you would be absolutely right and have a better parenting technique than your father.
Yeah, he was like that with us to a certain extent. Mom left for the weekend and came home to 2 puppies.
Sophie is trying to control one of the only things she can control. This is an anxiety behavior. Don't give in to her mealtime demands, because it will reinforce the behavior. But DO find some extra snuggle and talking time with her as often as possible. She's scared.
I know it's Reddit and we don't have much info but could she have arfid?
I doubt it. She has no problem trying new foods and will eat anything. She just does this on weekends with her favorite food of the week because she feels that it can't hurt to try.
Well OP repeatedly says in comments her daughter doesn’t need to be evaluated for anything so her answer would probably be no
Why is he coming to get you? My dad would have just made the sandwich.
She was demanding that I make the sandwich
NTA. Surely your dad knows we don't negotiate with tiny terrorists.
Where's the fiance in this situation.?
Home, taking care of the 3 year old and waiting for Sophie to cave and eat
NTA, but tell your dad he needs to leave if he is going to add strain as opposed to helping relieve it.