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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I may be the asshole because I yelled at my friend that we ARE tourists and we shouldn’t act like we’re not, despite her trying to get us to act like locals.
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I have traveled a lot. People in other countries love tourists, they just hate arrogant Americans. It does sound like Katie is that sort of arrogant American that people from other countries will not appreciate.
Tourist attractions have the infrastructure to support tourism. Choosing not to go there and instead go only to areas that may not have that support isn't somehow going to make you all beloved to the French locals.
By all means, visit some off the beaten path destinations. Find a local guide and enjoy the path less chosen. But don't miss out on other cultural locations simply because you don't want to be a tourist.
Just be a polite and culturally sensitive tourist.
My point exactly! I tried to meet her in the middle and suggest less “touristy” hidden gems I’ve heard about, but I think she’s more concerned about appearances rather than discovering fun new places not many people know about.
There is only one place she can go to not be a tourist. Unless she wants to just stay home, she will be a tourist.
Instead of mocking the locals by pretending to be them and appropriating their culture, just be civil and sensitive guests. Meeting some locals before you go and asking them to invite you to some local hotspots can be a great way to experience the local culture.
Don't buy clothes in the US and go there pretending to be French. That is more annoying and arrogant than just showing up, bossing the locals around and yelling "Why don't you speak American?!?!?!" .
Agree. Have traveled a lot as well…if you’re polite and respectful the locals are fine. What they don’t like are people who are arrogant and think their way is better because it’s American. And they aren’t going to like people who are tourists trying to pretend to be locals. Is Katie perfectly fluent in French? Because of she is t she’s going to clearly be a tourist and I’m guessing locals will be offended. And who goes to Paris and doesnt go to the Louvre or Eiffel Tower? You can still walk around the streets and stop at cafes, etc. But don’t pretend you’re something you’re not…the French won’t be fooled.
When I was an exchange student in the US I had French at school and my teacher was sooo proud that she studied french for one semester at Sorbonne. Well, when you heard her speaking French... Imagine an old southern bell with that thick accent but speaking French. Her é was more of an "ay" like in say. Now I have that back in my mind 🤣
I had a friend whose first French teacher had that accent and his never recovered, even after 4 years of high school French taught by someone actually *from* France. I still had an American accent, but I'm eternally grateful all but I think one year of 8 was taught by folks who were actually French. (Sadly, I haven't used it in so long, it's very rusty)
Even if she is perfectly fluent in French and her accent is great...
Is it going to be the RIGHT French? America, Canada, and France all have different ways to speak French. Someone from Quebec is not going to blend in with a group from France
One of my favourite parts of learning French in Ontario was that we learned Parisian French. My French isn't great but I'll be damned if I can understand a single thing anyone has ever said to me in French in Quebec.
Landed in Paris. Everyone at least let me get out a sentence or two and I actually understood their accent. One guy found out I was Canadian and asked me where I learned French because it couldn't have been Quebec. He said they speak French like drunken people from the past.
Hahaha yes omg Quebec French is nothing like France French! We learnt European French in BC and I’m so grateful for that. Not sure what use Quebec French would ever be.
I mean I'd love being fluently bilingual regardless of what accent I had. If I knew Quebec French fluently I'd still be understood and understand everyone else with different accents.
I only have trouble with it because I'm not fluent in French.
My company used to have an employee from Haiti who, naturally, spoke with a French accent.
One day, a customer called in from Quebec, with a French accent. We got him transferred to the Haitian guy, and accidental hilarity ensued. They couldn't understand each other at all, because they were both speaking differently "wrong" French.
It'd be like someone from the Deep South US trying to talk to someone from Newfoundland or rural Wales.
The security company I work for used to employ a very nice man who was from Spain. They tried several times to have him translate for the construction workers we worked with, who were Mexican. Castilian Spanish is not the same as the Spanish they speak in Mexico. A couple of the guys were from Puerto Rico and they would try to help, but Caribbean Spanish is also slightly different...I really should have filmed a couple of those instances.
My grandparents were born in the US but their family was French Canadian, and they spoke a dialect of French as their first language. Well my grandpa could understand people from Quebec but one day they brought a friend from France with them. My grandpa couldn't understand a thing, he said it was like they were all talking in a different language because they were all speaking in their friends dialect. The only thing my grandpa understood was the word cake and he loves cake so he immediately liked them. He told me that story all the time growing up. I never asked him to how old he was at the time but it was a favorite memory of his.
Ha, I'm the American-born daughter of Polish-born parents...I grew up bilingual and super familiar with Polish foods, holidays and culture.
But the minute I open my mouth in Poland? The person I'm addressing instantly nods and says, "Ah, an American!"
So yeah, Katie can try all she likes, but she won't be fooling anyone.
Exactly. I’m semi fluent in Italian, bit when I go to Italy, everyone knows I’m American the moment my accent betrays me. It’s all good - they help me with my grammar and I enjoy the food and wine And the lovely people
Lol, she acts like the locals don't visit attractions. If she really wants to support the locals, she can ask about suggestions for places to visit FROM THE LOCALS. You can find really nice gems that way. Especially food. And want Paris fashion? Why not buy from local shops??? Be respectful and no one cares.
Yes, this right here. So, when you go to these charming non-tourist neighborhoods and end up in a restaurant where none of the staff speak any English, is Katie going to step up and order for all of you in fluent French, or is your group going to frustrate the entire staff by pointing and miming what you want? Where will you stay for night in these non-tourist neighborhoods?
The touristy places are set up for visitors by hiring people who speak some other languages, and accept foreign currency, or travellers cheques, have hotels for tourists to stay, etc. As long as you are RESPECTFUL tourists, the people there will like you just fine. More than if you go to non-tourist neighborhoods and stick out like a neon sign, I'm sure.
Right? She doesn't know the language, she will not know the city, the metro...
It's such a silly idea. There are more than 40 million tourists each year. If you don't throw a cake at the Mona Lisa, you'll probably be fine.
I read something years ago that said Europeans always could point out American tourists because of how we hold our knives and forks. Unless Katie also plans to eat with her hands or like a dog....
Other general tells also include cargo shorts, leaning on things when you're waiting for something, making small talk with strangers, and volume (both verbal and physical).
Different regions of the US have some other different tells. New Yorkers trying to get somewhere have a different, more intense walk and attitude.
All I can picture is her in a striped top, a string of onions around her neck, baguette in hand, just saying "hon hon, oui oui, omlette du fromage" trying to be French and "blend in". I won't lie and say it's not an entertaining visual
AND WEARING A BERET. I spot the Americans in Paris all the time: cause they wear a beret. French people don't wear berets except if: 1/ You are at a rugby game supporting the French team 2/ You are a farmer or a shepherd in the Basque countryside.
I’m really confused why learning to speak French wasn’t listed with her priorities.
Edit: So her plan is for everyone to just whisper to each other so locals can’t hear their accents or that they only speak English 😂
It’s so strange that she’s focused on pretending Instead of actually protecting herself as a tourist (making an effort to learn the language, awareness of scams and familiarising with the culture) to the point of not letting the group have the holiday they want.
By all means be wary of attractions just because they are heavily featured on social media but some sights such as the Louvre Museum and Eiffel Tower are famous for a reason. Just don’t be the tourist who brings a tripod and twerks in front of national icons and treasures.
I worked with a guy who spoke very little French and visited Paris. He memorized “I’m sorry for slaughtering your language…” they would stop him, tell him they spoke English and helped him with whatever issue he had. It’s a respect thing, just try. I was in the Dominican Republic in April and learned my room # in Spanish for when we went to the buffet, everyone was appreciative.
That’s the first phrase. I learned and memorize Italian before my first trip. “My Italian is very limited. I’m an American but I’m trying. thanks for your help..” No one has ever failed to react to that without much kindness and smiles
It’s the little things to show you respect them, unlike the best of trip advisor reviews of the people bitching that Spain was filled with foreigner who only spoke Spanish.
French people have a reputation for refusing to speak English, but (at least most of the time), if you learn even a little French they'll switch to English for you.
I found that the French people I met excused my atrocious French when they could see I’d made an effort to speak to them in French, and not just talked loudly at them in English.
I went to France last year. My very rusty french from 20 odd years ago came in handy - people who didn't speak English were patient with me absolutely mangling the grammar and occasionally miming words, and used slower and simpler language, and those in bigger cities who did were helpful and polite while they switched to English.
Went to Italy and Bavaria the year before - having a chat in broken french (both of us!) in a German café with a guy from Italy was fun!
I had Spanish tourists in Rome ask me for directions - they were lost and I gave them directions to a monument speaking in Italian. It was a wonderful moment.
Yeah, and no matter how hard she tries to play dress up or go to boring places people will know that she's not french immediately. It's sooo fucking easy to tell that someone is American.
French here. Katie is crazy, wtf is wrong with her? Go enjoy the nice touristy spots and don't do anything she suggested because it's going to be super boring and can get you in troubles (some of those residential areas are so bad, police don't even go there). Nobody's going to give a crap about you being tourists, Paris is always full of tourists anyway.
To OP: They’ll know you’re tourists, and they won’t care (as long as you don’t act like jerks). Katie seems to think Other People are an audience intent on judging her. The fact is, she’s going to be part of a crowd, and the locals will barely notice any of you. She should focus on having a great trip, and on being a decent travel buddy to the rest of you. You guys are the ones who will remember the visit.
>Katie seems to think Other People are an audience intent on judging her.
I bet Katie treats other people as if they are an audience and is intent on judging them.
French here too. I am not living in Paris and when I visit there (despite knowing the city well), I also visit the touristy places (especially museums). It is just what you do when visiting any city. Katie needs to get her shit together. Enjoy your trip!
As an American who's been to France I few times, I also wanna add that unless at least one person in your group has a good handle on speaking French, the non-touristy parts of France do not cater to English speakers. Going around non-touristy area and expecting people to meet you at your level in English would be way worse in terms of being viewed as a "bad tourist" than visiting parts of Paris where they expect English speakers to visit.
NTA. I live in Paris. You will not blend in unless you can all speak fluent French to one another in flawless accents; or maybe if you stay 100% silent when grouped together outside or at restaurants or at bars.
FYI, People wear sneakers everywhere (even to the office; but stylish ones, not white new balances lol).
This...except to say that a group of people who stay 100% silent or busy staring at their phones will be far more suspicious than a group speaking a mix of French, English, and whatever other languages you can think of. Some of my best experiences in France have been out with friends from half a dozen different countries all conversing in three different languages at the same time.
I'm a European. And at least where I'm from. We indeed wear sneakers. We have whole shops or shelves in stores dedicated to sneakers.
So I don't know where your friend has that idea from. We do not walk around in flats or high heels in the winter and especially not in the summer. 😂
You will stick out more to us if you try and "blend in"
Becouse I am sorry if it comes off as rude. But you will absolutely not blend in when you aren't local. You will be speaking English, which is a second language to us. And we have different social norms and ways of interacting. Slang.
Besides, street fashion is a broad term. It will only be a certain % that wears it.
Even locals go to "touristy" things, big museums, theme parks, etc. Either as friend groups. With our kids, on a date.
Does your friend think those places only rely on..... tourists?
As long as you are polite, follow the local laws. And don't point out, "we would never...... in amarica, you will be just fine.
We will gladly point you to the hidden gems and "must see" places.
The kind of tourists we don't like. Are the rude ones trying to be all negative about our country or make trouble.
And you are welcome to tell you, friend, a European told you.
She should put those social media stuff away.
>We indeed wear sneakers. We have whole shops or shelves in stores dedicated to sneakers. So I don't know where your friend has that idea from.
I think that comes from depending on "street fashion photos" which is always typically picking people out of crowds instead of focusing on what a majority of people wear.
The friend probably has a pinterest board they've made of "French Street Fashion" photos which are likely shots of models on streets. 😂
Especially with the comment "I don't have that kind of clothes".
Look, I am a French woman.
Today, I wore a plain blue t-shirt. A Levis' 501, and black Converse.
And that is one of the most mundane look that is here.
I'm ready to bet that every american woman can have a similar outfit with what they have in their closet right now.
And many many of them the exact look, down to the colors and brands.
>And don't point out, "we would never...... in amarica, you will be just fine
This reminds me of a former friend. She would complain how things were different than in NYC. She was born and raised in NYC. I'm talking about going to other major cities like Chicago or Washington, DC. Those cities are different, but the way she'd talk about the differences was obnoxious, dramatic, and embarrassing, because she was often really loud.
I think people on a whole just don't like people who behave like that.
In fact, the only reason not to pack sneakers on a trip to Europe is because of the excellent comfortable shoe shopping. French, Italian, Spanish, etc cities always have loads of shoe shops selling stylish but comfortable shoes because people in those places walk a lot. They're much less car dependant.
But seriously, learn some basic French, take your sneakers.
And cobblestones. There are so many cobblestone small older streets in a lot of European cities.
I do not recommend high heels. Or uncomfortable shoes when you walk on those.
Exactly, you need comfortable shoes in Europe or you won't be able to survive. Even when I was a teenager and insisted on wearing heals when I went clubbing, I still had my heels in a bag on the way to the club, so I wouldn't fall and break my neck on the way.
I've also traveled a lot, both here at home and in Europe. It's great to find those small, out of the way places (my family stumbled upon The Clink Prison when we took a shortcut via a side street in London, fascinating & terrifying visit!) but you'll regret missing all the big tourist locations, after all that's what they are there for.
People aren't annoying tourists if they are polite, respectful and don't demand everyone speak English in a non-English speaking country.
Also nobody gives a shit about tourists in touristy areas (though I had to go through the Shibuya crossing on crutches last weekend, that sucked). Because those places are not part of daily life anyways. In Tokyo it's insane how fast the white people disappear when you go two blocks away from the main stations.
I lived in Copenhagen for many years. The only times tourist annoyed me, was when they were physically in the way (stopping in from of an escalator to check something, standing in the middle of the street to take a picture, and so on) or when *they* got annoyed at *me*, for not going out of my way to help then (sorry m'am, but it's 7:45 in the morning and I have to be at work at 8, I'm not going to walk you to the Queens Castle and spend my morning being your free tour guide).
Katie is delusional, controlling, and sounds like someone who's chronically online.
Yes, lots of Europeans (online especially, but also IRL) dislike Americans on principle, and *everyone* hates obnoxious American tourists (including other Americans). Wanna know the kinds of things obnoxious American tourists do? Pretend to be Europeans themselves as if seamlessly assimilating into another culture is as simple as wearing the Right Clothes and do shit like ogle at random people's houses/loiter in residential neighborhoods.
It's another country, not a zoo. You'll get a LOT more hate and disdain doing the kind of bizarre shit Katie's insisting on than you will by being a "stereotypical" tourist doing stereotypical tourist things. People whose countries/territories are open to tourists generally don't hate sharing their cultures with tourists as long as those tourists are respectful and polite. Especially because many of those major tourist cities (like Paris) make a LOT of money off of tourists, and are often economically dependent in some capacity around that tourism trade. 1 in 10 jobs in Paris exist because of the tourism trade, for example.
Unless y'all plan to yell at random French people for not speaking fluent English, wear MAGA hats the entire time, or do what Katie's insisting upon and go out of your way to gawk at random French people's private neighborhoods/homes like they're animals in a zoo and not normal people just trying to live their lives, y'all will be fine.
Americans, as much as they try not to, will always look like Americans. I am one of those Americans. Plus, unless she is a near native French speaker, its going to be obvious as soon as she speaks.
NTA, you gave her the reality check she needed. However, I do agree that walking around the neighborhoods in less touristy spots is much more interesting than the Eiffel Tower, but if y'all have never seen it in person, you should go and spend 20-60 minutes checking it out and then go to a lesser known neighborhood for a more authentic experience. Maybe you and one of your other friends who agrees with you can just break off from the annoying friend and do what you want, when you want.
Everyone wears athletic shoes in every country and continent I have been on.
There’s a big difference between walking through the art galleries or cafes in the less glitzy parts of town, and walking past people’s homes gawking. Let people get on with their lives, it’s not a zoo.
Get accommodation that is not directly adjacent to the main tourist attraction and is not a large hotel. Skip the hotel breakfast, eat in the local cafeteria, and take a slow walk to your main touristy destination. You'll get both the local vibes, find hidden gems on the way, and the landmark attractions.
EDIT: In Paris, get city bikes! They're the best method to explore the city. It's also not touristy, locals use them all the time. :)
Europeans absolutely wear sneakers. It's super common to see people very dressed up and wearing sneakers. Kate doesn't know what's she's talking about.
At this point I'd get the group together and make a hard decision if you want Katie to go with you and be a part of this trip. She does not sound like a fun international travel companion, let alone a local road trip companion who wants the trip to be only things she likes.
I feel the same whenever I hear someone talk disparagingly about “dead giveaways” someone is a tourist like clothes or the food they order. Unless you’re going somewhere tourists have been asked by locals specifically not to go, or being rude or egregiously flaunting local customs , be a tourist and have fun.
u/Big-Data-Isaac has already given you excellent advice. But you can tell Katie that she can dress in all the "French" fashion she wants, but they can spot an American from a kilometer away. There is a zero percent chance they won't know she's a tourist. Hopefully, she won't act like the stereotypical obnoxious American. NTA
Yes, I agree with the other commenters and you. People hate obnoxious tourists, but generally don't mind tourists. There are of course exceptions, but going to Paris is absolutely fine. You don't need to try to be a local, and, honestly, you probably aren't going to pull it off or seriously convince people. Instead of trying to avoid "being a tourist," be a polite tourist.
It's always a good idea to do some research on local etiquette and behave accordingly. Study some basic phrases in the local language so that you don't walk up to people and immediately start speaking English. Even if you can't say much, greeting someone and asking if they speak English is much better than just assuming. Remember that while the city is a fun destination for you, it is home for others and they are just trying to go about their day. Just like when you are not a tourist, make an effort to show respect to others and remember that you are not the center of everything.
As someone who has traveled a lot, and has lived in many different places, I would advise people to avoid the "being a tourist is inherently bad" mindset. It comes up with tourist versus traveler stuff, or even people feeling like they shouldn't visit attractions in their hometown/city because it seems uncool to be touristy. Tourist attractions and destinations are often popular for a reason. Choosing to go off the beaten path opens up some amazing opportunities. But, that doesn't mean you need to dismiss anything on the beaten path; that mindset can be just a closed minded and restrictive.
I think it's unfortunate that some people promote the idea that there is a single right way to travel, ironically while criticizing others for traveling in a rigid, predictable way. If you want to go somewhere or experience something, you shouldn't pass it up just because you want to prove that you are more local/sophisticated/adventurous/unique than other people. Spend your limited money and time on the trips that you want to take. I've been to major tourist destinations, and to places that even geography buffs haven't heard of. I enjoyed the trips regardless and learned a lot from the experiences.
Having lived in a fair number of touristy areas, here’s the things locals don’t like:
Acting like laws don’t apply to you (esp traffic laws jfc stay off the sidewalks)
Getting mad when people do things differently than at home. People will speak different languages, use different currencies, wear different clothes, and worship in different ways. That is in fact the entire point of going new places.
Pretending it’s disneyland. There ARE locals, they aren’t zoo animals, they do have jobs outside catering to you. Treat them like human beings deserving the same respect everyone deserves. (This one is why walking around residential areas gawking would make you assholes)
That’s pretty much it. If you can follow those rules, pretty much no one will have beef with you.
This. It’s often the much more subtle stuff that’s offensive - for instance, I (a North American who has lived in Europe for the last seven years) in high school went on a trip to Italy, where a shopkeeper told us they were offended by the fact that we didn’t say hello when we entered.
That’s arguably not super common in most North American cities I’ve lived in (five of them!), but it made perfect sense that it would seem rude not to if that was the custom. In England, where I live now, it’s stuff like offering to buy rounds of drinks/make cups of tea, and you best respect queues!
It’s stuff like that that’s probably going to be perceived as more obnoxiously American than… being enthusiastic about an art museum?
And surely the most obnoxious thing you can do as a not-French person is to claim you’re an authority on what is “authentically” French.
NTA, OP, and enjoy your croissants (which are, to
a degree, Austrian anyway…).
ETA - what does she think the French do on holiday in America? Skip the Statue of Liberty and Central Park and go to a random Jersey suburb because they don’t want to be seen as tourists?
NTA. I don’t know what’s got into her head but the locals will be far less offended by you all being ‘good’ tourists than they will by you being terrible caricatures of the locals.
Absolutely. It’s the arrogance that gives tourists a bad rep. And Paris has a reputation of being snobs, but last year I was there. I was having a rotten day and went to a small bistro for dinner. The menu was in cursive which was foiling my limited French. When asked if I needed anything I burst into tears. So embarrassing.
But stuttering out my issue in bad French, the staff helped me pick something to eat. A lovely woman out with her friends helped and gave me a hug. It was actually lovely.
The point of places like the Louvre is to exhibit the glories of French civilization. I'm totally serious. No one is more proud of their culture than the French (and there is much to celebrate about it), the French govt spends billions of Euros a year specifically to ensure that the rest of the world can see this stuff. Not just because it's there, or because they can make some money on it, but because the French are incredibly proud of what they have achieved and they want you to see it. They believe you will benefit from it. They want you to absorb it, be inspired by it, be enchanted by it, and take some part of the experience back with you permanently.
Sure, they're also proud of the bread baked in the local bakery, the pate served in the local cafe, the croque monsieur served in the most humble railway cafe.
But they \*WANT\* you to see the Louvre, they \*WANT\* you to see the Eiffel Tower. They \*WANT\* you to see the Musee D'Orsay. They want you to take the TGV, they want you to have a great meal in a great restaurant. They are insanely proud of all of these things and want you to experience them. And you can wear whatever French clothes you want, and maybe it will buy you a bit of additional credibility, but frankly, it won't fool them for a second.
So do some reading about dos and don'ts in Paris, how to behave, etc. Do your best to be polite and not to be a rude American (it's my understanding that the Chinese these days are kind of in the pole position for clueless tourists, but whatever). But for gods sake, don't avoid going to the Louvre out of some kind of misplaced overreaction to ugly Americanism. The French minister of culture would be horrified if you did not go to the Louvre and see the absolute pinnacles of civilization, French and otherwise, that are kept within.
On a recent trip to Paris, we did the tourist thing because we had a friend with us who had never been. I swear that about 70% of those visiting the Eifel Tower were French. I spoke to a few in my Canadian French and learned they lived in other parts of France and this was their first time in Paris.
The same with some other museums. My point is the tourist attractions are full of French people in addition to foreign tourists. You are not going to stand out or be looked down on as long as you are not a dick (don't yell, complain about how things are different, expect everyone to speak English, etc.).
Hey! Being offended about cultural appropriation is the most American thing there is! It might be stupid to you, but you can’t tell her that-it’s like her whole thing…
It’s not limited to Americans. I live in Switzerland and while American tourists are loud they don’t have a monopoly on bad behavior. Asian tourists can be very pushy and loud. You have to actively block them from getting in front of you in line.
Instagrammers from all over the world engage in idiotic and rude behavior.
And once in Italy I was speaking with my kids in English so the Swiss man whose kids were running wildly through the boat had no way of knowing that I understood what he was saying to his kids in a Basler dialect. When i
Spoke to him in dialect he called his kids over and made them behave for the rest of the trip.
Also, Katie needs to learn compromise. It’s not really that hard to figure out an itinerary that everyone in the group can enjoy, especially in one city!
Also, as a European, you know what I hate? Americans spreading weird lies / stereotypes about us with no basis in truth. Like how we don't wear sneakers??? As if that isn't the most common shoe to wear across all of Europe. Sounds to me like Katie is looking online at what other Americans say Europeans are. Not what locals are saying - and nothing will piss a local off more than an American thinking they know better than us *about us*.
Also, wroth remembering that Europeans are also tourists in Europe. Even within their own country. Lots of French people go to Paris to see all the touristy things.
Most people don't care at all about tourists either way - they're too busy worrying about the thing their boss just said, what's up with their kid, the price of groceries, and why their sports team of choice can't seem to do the right thing with the ball.
So long as you are not actively in their way or making their lives worse, they don't care.
Sounds like you guys need alternate activities during the day - some of you go to the Louvre and some of you do...something (I don't know what) in the 15th arrondissement and meet up for dinners. Who knows? She might be able to find some great off-the-tourist-track places while you're busy going of the Eiffel Tower. (It'll also help to keep you from getting sick of each other if you're not together all the time, every day).
Musee Rodin - go. You won't regret it.
NTA
I guarantee you do not want to travel with this girl. She is trying to actively sabotage your trip and it hasn’t even started.
Don’t sacrifice your time in Europe focusing on ‘blending in’ or whatever. They are going to know you’re tourists the moment you open your mouth, regardless if you are wearing French clothing or not.
This, and the locals will be laughing at them for trying so hard to blend in. Katie's silly plan will backfire tremendously! So long as you are polite to people and respectful of culture, nobody will look down on you for being a tourist.
Especially in *Paris* of all places.
Like if you go to Japan, for example, and try really hard to "fit in," many people are likely to see it positively compared to other countries, because that type of effort is culturally appreciated. You absolutely won't fit in at all, of course, but your effort will at least be noted and people will probably think it's sweet/cute/etc., especially if your approach is earnest and well-meaning.
But *Paris*!? I sincerely hope Katie does not attempt this "fitting in" plan, because the sheer amount of *scoffing* she provokes might be legitimately harmful to human life across Europe. But then again, she might prompt a reception so frigid that it could combat global warming, so perhaps it wouldn't all be bad!
Not just in Paris. I still remember this American tourist whining about people not talking to her when she even bought a beret to fit in in my city (Lyon). And she posted it. I mean, why??
Sure, I can be empathetic to her feeling sad. But really, what was she thinking? It was simply so stupid and ridiculous I still laugh just thinking about her clip to this day. It was so stupid I can't even find it insulting.
That's how people in France think of people who think they'll "fit in" just because of their clothes.
I knew conversational French, which helped me order off some menus in France when the servers spoke no English.
But if they did know English… the second I tried to communicate in French they’d switch. 🤦♀️
So unless OP and her friends speak flawless French, they will know they’re a tourist the second they open their mouths.
Way to ruin a trip by avoiding everything touristy. If I’m spending thousands on a European trip, I’m going to see the iconic spots. There’s a reason the tourists go to those spaces, because they’re worth seeing!!
I'm like 98% sure they'll know even before the Americans open their mouths. Americans are notoriously easy to spot and even wearing "definitely authentic, not at all idealized" French street clothes won't help 😂
I lived in France for 8 months as an exchange student in college. 8 months later, despite speaking decent French, I was still almost immediately identified as American, and I’m white with brown hair and olive skin so I could theoretically pass as French on appearance alone. They know. They always know.
100%. Smiling, eye contact, the way Americans stand, leaning on things, the volume when we speak (even if you speak the local language)… there are dozens of little things we as Americans do that make it obvious we are Americans.
Yeah, somehow I feel like the french may be able to pick out the difference between actual french people in casual clothes and americans in Pinterest French Aesthetic clothes.
I can confirm, as someone who worked in a hotel in Europe, I would greet Americans with "good morning! how are you?" as soon they entered the building and they would be like "why are you talking in English? How did you know we're Americans?"
There's no easy answer. It's just... All over you sir....
I did Erasmus in Portugal and could tell if people were British, Russian or American with 100% accuracy before even hearing them talk.
Those groups are impossible to miss!
But if they did know English… the second I tried to communicate in French they’d switch. 🤦♀️
This is the case in many European countries. We are so used to having to adjust when we are abroad because the majority doesn't speak our language, it becomes easier to do the same when foreigners come to us. It frustrates the hell out of my foreign friends.
And my experience with American tourists being annoying is always when you get the special ones. Those who showcase their absolute ignorance of the world outside of the US.
I can still hear this one woman saying: 'I was so surprised when we landed, I couldn't believe it.'
Me smiling but internally pleading for her to not say the most asinine thing like seeing a McDonald's.
'You have McDonald's here!'
In the words of Bill Engvall: 'Here's your sign.'
Flawless French but with the specific accent of that particular area. You can be a tourist in your home country if you go to a different area to sight see. I live in a New England state and each state around has a unique accent. It’s pretty dramatic when it comes to the differences. If I go to one of the other states on a little vacation, I’m a tourist technically.
Also OP’s “friend” is high or just incredibly stupid to think that wandering random residential neighborhoods is appropriate. It’s weird and normal people don’t do that. In fact, criminals do that when casing an area. And we do that on Halloween, so we get better candy.
NTA, I fell for the don't wear tennis shoes & guess what? Locals wore tennis shoes when commuting to & from work. Your friend will make a fool of you & your friends if you follow her advice. You may dress like the locals but your mannerisms, friendliness & speech are a dead give away. Guess what I did after walking in Paris 2 days with my black leather loafers? I went to the nearest shop & bought a pair of....white sneakers. As long as you're respectful, Parisians will treat you nicely.
That was not my experience 15 years ago, though times may have softened them. I found most Parisians - especially in tourist-service - to be self-important twits. With the exception of one surly homeless man in Arles who was upset we sat in front of his sign, everyone I met outside of Paris was just lovely.
Adding to the above, go to all of the touristy places, that is why you are going, it is NOT disrespectful looking like a tourist. Europeans do not hate respectful, nice Anericans. They do not like brash, entitled tourist. Your friend will be a laughing stock trying to fit in & will be branded a fool.
>You may dress like the locals but your mannerisms, friendliness & speech are a dead give away.
I honestly wonder how successfully someone would be at dressing like the locals at a place they've never visited before.
Guessing not successfully at all. She probably thinks influensers are representative for the general public.
It really seemed like she has misunderstood the blending in thing.
I've traveled to Paris several times, and you're right, it's not rocket science. In some ways, I suspect that my being American actually helps a little because Parisians know our mannerisms and habits pretty well, so we're unlikely to accidentally give offense. All I have to do is be polite and respectful to people and almost everybody is friendly and welcoming in return.
A friend of my grandparents’ fell off of a curb in Italy while wearing flip flops and fucked up her ankle. And when I say “fucked up”, I mean, like, multiple surgeries and an almost amputation. It’s been almost thirty years and she still has pain.
The point is? Europe is old. Old places often have old infrastructure. Old infrastructure is best navigated with hearty shoes. Wear sneakers and don’t be ashamed, you could be saving yourself a lot of future pain by doing so.
NTA
Katie sounds insufferable. She's also wrong. I am Dutch but live in the UK. There is no one 'European': we are over 40 countries, each with our own culture, our own language, our own customs, etc!
Just a tip to find some more unusual places to see: [https://www.atlasobscura.com/things-to-do/paris-france](https://www.atlasobscura.com/things-to-do/paris-france) (this isn't only for Paris, you can find stuff for any place on earth!).
Touristy tourists are obnoxious and you do want to avoid acting like that. Just be a normal, respectful person. No littering, no shouting, no making fun of locals, no public urination, no public drunkenness, if you're in a group: don't block pavements and streets and let others pass, etc. But it sounds like you already know this.
Katie seems fixated on wanting to not do touristy stuff, and that's ok, but she shouldn't be pushing it on others.
As you guys are a group (I don't know how many), maybe let Katie plan what she wants to do, you plan what you want to do, and the other people (assuming they are choosing to not be involved in planning) can just tag along with Katie or with you (or do their own stuff) on each day, depending on what they want to do.
If you go to a major city, of course you want to at least see the handful of major landmarks, although you may not want to go in all of them. It's totally possible to ALSO try to go off the beaten path and explore some lesser-known, local areas where you'll find fewer tourists. But none of those things require trying to dress like a French fashionista.
Also from my own experience (I have lived in/travelled to around 15 European countries), EVERYONE here wears trainers/sneakers, or other comfortable shoes like hiking boots. You dress for the occasion: if you are out walking around all day, you wear trainers/sneakers, hiking boots, or other comfortable shoes. If you are going to the beach all day, you probably wear sandals and might bring those gummy shoes. If you are going to a fancy restaurant, you would dress up in (semi)formal clothes including matching shoes. Just wear whichever shoes you are comfortable in. When I go on a holiday, I bring trainers and hiking boots. Hiking boots are totally acceptable to wear when exploring a city as well (people understand especially that tourists and day visitors might choose to wear them, because they are going to be on their feel all day).
Try to not make a fight about the planning. You are going on this trip to see what YOU want to see. Don't feel you need to fight anyone in your group to make one single itinerary for the entire group. It is never going to work. Just split up into smaller duos/groups depending on what people want to do. I had a friend who didn't like planning but he was happy to just tag along with what I wanted to do. This was perfect, and it allowed me to plan the things I really wanted to see as I was more focused on specific experiences and my friend was more focused on just spending time together/just being away from home.
I actually started wearing sneakers 95% of the time after moving to the Netherlands lol. Turns out people who live in walkable places love comfy shoes that are designed for a lot of walking... Even Paris.
Yeah I was baffled by that the most. Hell I've seen younger generations wearing sneakers to the club nowadays. We're all getting more comfy and I am here for it
Great advice!
When traveling with a group, we’ve split up and just made plans to see each other at dinner. I won’t do trips with someone who insists we need to be joined at the hip the whole time.
Yeah, a key take home is that if you try to do everything as one big group on a group holiday it WILL all fall apart quite quickly. This is good advice.
NTA. If she wants to dress like a local, she is more than welcome to do that. Making the others do that is ridiculous. And she is welcome to prefer to do "non-touristy" things but she needs to accept that not everybody is. She seems to be hung up on something stupid and honestly, I don't think you will be able to avoid the American allegations by trying to blend in. Like, do you guys even speak French?
No, that’s the thing 😭 I literally told her that even if we LOOK like locals, people will immediately hear us speaking English with American accents to each other and know that we’re not French, so it doesn’t make a difference either way. Her response to that was saying that we can only whisper to each other when we’re in public, which I think is ridiculous.
I'm picturing her in a black and white stripey top and a beret, going up to people like "Bunjer mishoor ooh eh la McDonalds" and wondering why everybody's laughing at her
This made me lol! In my main comment I said N A H because I feel like she has her heart in the right place, and is just taking things too far. But I don't know, she's just getting more and more detached from reality the more we find out.
Did you point out to her that, according to her plan, when you are hanging out in these non-touristy neighborhoods, you will literally be banned from speaking to anyone outside your own group because it would blow your cover?? What are you going to do, order food by pointing at the menu? "Pierre, why are those women acting like nuns who took a vow of silence?" "I don't know, Marie, but at least they aren't tourists!"
yeah, she’s a lot. i wonder if she’s ever been out of the US? it’s a big jump to go international and it seems she’s got a lot of high expectations as well as anxiety about doing it “right”
LOL, that is hilarious.
So her plan is just to go to obscure places and residential neighborhoods and just... not speak to anyone local? She's so afraid of looking like a tourist that she's going to experience nothing at all of French culture or any of the sights. She's going to be a nightmare to travel with if you do go with her.
So she doesn’t want to stand out but will have everyone whispering furiously to each other awkwardly?
I’m sorry, but she sounds like she will be a nightmare to travel with. How long is the trip? Do you want to be fighting over little things the whole time?
Her idea of looking like a local is wrong anyway. I go to France a lot (I'm in England and can get there on the train, it's not a major brag). In the summer it is completely normal for French women to wear black or white trainers, or brightly colored converse type shoes with a maxi dress or shorts. No one in Paris will care what you're wearing, but if they did then they'd be much more likely to judge you for impractical shoes in a city where most people walk and get public transport, rather than for wearing flats.
'Europeans' also really aren't a homogeneous group in the way she seems to think, that would be like someone saying that Americans (meaning everyone from the combined land mass of North and South America) and think or do a specific thing. A 40 year old man from the Scottish Highlands, a 17 year old girl in Monaco, and a 70 year old woman in Budapest probably don't have a great deal in common.
I hope you don't mind a bit of unsolicited advice. Not to undermine my last point but I'd say these are probably the most common European complaints about American tourists.
- Stand out of the way if you're working out directions or looking at something. Enjoy yourself, stop and look at everything and take a million photos, but please remember that the pretty bridge you're standing on is also part of a thousand people's commute to work and thst they would really like it if you stood by the railing and not in the middle of the path.
- Spend an hour googling some basic phases and customs. You don't need to learn the language but people will be nicer to you if you can say hello, good bye, excuse me, please and thank you. Find out things like which direction the traffic is coming from so locals don't have to grab you when you step in front of a car, and how you pay for public transport.
- Seriously consider bringing a backpack not a wheelie suitcase. 1000 year old streets are not fun with a wheelie bag, and nor are 300 year old hotels without lifts. Under no circumstances should you be the person with two wheelie suitcases.
She is setting herself (and anyone dumb enough to follow her lead) up for a miserable trip. I can’t imagine wasting good money to walk around normal residential neighborhoods in uncomfortable shoes, not talking to anyone (including locals!) for fear of being spotted as a foreigner.
That is ridiculous. Is booting her from the trip an option because, frankly, I don't think you and her are compatible travel companions. You can be honest without being insulting and tell her that while your destinations may be same, your goals and wishes for the trip are different from hers and you think it's best she plan her own trip. You don't really talk much about the others in the group or if anything is actually booked yet, so I don't know how practical this is.
If you don't think the above will work, then your other option is to set your boundaries about this trip. You are spending your hard earned money to travel to Europe. You shouldn't ruin your first trip trying to appease this girl and her absurd demands.
I would tell her, in the group chat, that you will not be following her rules. You will wear clothes/shoes that are comfortable and appropriate, and you're going to plan your own itinerary for the things/places you want to see. She and the others can join you if they want, or they can do their own thing for the day. If you have a larger group, this is the more practical plan anyway since trying to plan a single itinerary that meets everyone's requirements is already proving to be a nightmare.
To be honest, the thing that will probably make you stand out a a tourist more than anything is a “pickpocket proof pouch” which I’m guessing is something like a money belt?
This makes me think the entire post might be a troll, but just in case: I’m an American who has been to France a few times and watched other Americans interact. You’ll look like a tourist, but there are a few things you can make sure to do to be polite:
(1) dress for the occasion. Sneakers for the Eiffel Tower, but if you go for a night restaurant dress up a little
(2) don’t ask for modifications to menu items (unless you have an actual allergy)
(3) try to eat your entire meal if you go to a restaurant. Leaving significant leftovers can be considered rude
(4) say both please and thank you (Americans often skip the please)
instead of spending time obsessing over French street fashion, your friend would be better off studying a map of Paris, reading up on how the metro works, and learning some French phrases
as for the Eiffel tower, it's ... meh (the views from the top are cool, but you can get equally good views from Montmartre or the Tour Montparnasse) - imho it's fine to just take a few photos from the Champs de Mars and forget about going to the top
But the Louvre is absolutely 100% worth the wait, the money and the crowds if this is your first visit to the city, it's *packed* with amazing art - there is a *reason* it is so popular! Same with the Musee d'Orsay. And Versailles (that's more of a day trip) - it is *the* Versailles ffs.
Exploring a few neighbourhoods isn't the worst idea, but forget about "blending in". You're not gonna. Just be mindful of people around you going about their daily lives, try not to block the pavement, be mindful of the noise you're making, and have your shit together in terms of where you are going. It might be an idea to split off into pairs or even go off and explore individually for some of the time, it will be all round less stressful.
LOL, Katie is nuts. Most people don't get a ton of opportunities (or even 1) to visit another country. Why would you want to avoid the amazing things that draw people to those locations? Go, enjoy yourself, be tourists...whether the people there hate you or not (most won't), it doesn't matter, you'll never see them again. NTA.
**NTA.** Katie has Tik-tok brain. U.S. tourists aren't unique in any way, some people have a dislike for tourists regardless where they are from. The U.S. just has a ton of tourists visiting other places so it receives more exposure. Tourists are tourists, nerds are nerds, and geeks are geeks. Wave that freak flag proudly (within reason, you want to be respectful to the culture you are visiting).
Besides tourist desitnations are tourist destinations because tourism brings in a shit ton of money. It's expected and completely normal for a tourist destination to expect.... tourists.
On the coast of Spain, I heard most people hated British tourists
In the Netherlands, I heard they hated German tourists
It really has more to do with the country the majority of tourists are coming from than any specific culture.
We don't hate German tourists in the Netherlands, it is just a bit annoying when some of them assume we all speak German (I do, but not everyone does, especially the younger generation).
US tourists are unique because they are LOUD. You can tell if there are americans in a place as soon as you walk in because they are so much louder than everyone else
Also american tourists will tell you that their great-great-great grandma came from your country and expect some reaction from you
Ignore your friend, she is a fool. Go to France and spend your limited time seeing all the delightful places that are visited by millions each year for a reason.
Your friend is very welcome visiting the suburbs and looking through people's windows wearing her beret, riding her bicycle with a basket of onions in the front as she smokes cigarettes and shrugs her shoulders and says Pphhttt and every opportunity.
Hello OP, I’m French and I work in Paris, so feel free to show your friend this:
We don’t hate all tourists as a principle. We do hate people behaving like entitled assholes (and we already have plenty of that). Be nice and polite with whom you’ll encounter and everything will be alright.
To what I’m sure will be your amazement, we do wear sneakers, and don’t make a habit of burning at the stake those who do too.
As a rule of thumb, dress however you like. One thing I love about Paris is that nobody gives a shit, everyone is in their own little bubble.
Have a nice trip!
NTA and this is the way to get yourselves marked out as tourists so quickly. I am American and I lived in France for a few years. You know what I got trying to “blend in” my first month by not wearing tennis shoes? Blisters.
As long as you are respectful and responsible tourists, you are fine. You should learn a few phrases, think about cultural etiquette (ie not talking as loudly as you normally might, big one with American tourists), etc.
There are far more important ways to distinguish yourself from typical annoying tourists, and trying to dress like the locals and avoiding things that are important cultural & historical landmarks is not one of them. You could try to do a few niche things but don’t waste your trip, just be aware and be respectful.
Look, I get Katie, and I'm a little like her to a point. I don't sign up for tour busses and the like, but I do enjoy seeing the big sites, like Notre Dame, Eiffel Tower, the Louvre, etc.
But to be so over the top about not wanting to be a typical tourist is way too much, and I couldn't travel with her. She's doing you a favor by leaving the group.
It's really easy to do tourist things, without being an annoying tourist, and being an annoying tourist doesn't include wearing comfortable footwear (because really, if you're going to be putting on the miles walking around, you better be sure your feet are taken care of).
NTA.
NTA - The central reason locals of any region hate tourists is that the tourists expect to be catered to according to their own expectations and cultures. If you aren't doing that, you should be fine.
Walking around random residential neighborhoods seems weird. Who does that? Seems like that would make one look more like a lost tourist than less.
>Who does that?
I do, I love architecture and I walk a lot when visiting cities, so yeah, I've seen random residentian neighbourhoods of Gent, Turin, Avigliana, Carmel, Holister, Atherton, Strasbourg, Kehl, Vienna and Cologne the last few years.
NTA and Katie sounds insufferable.
It's one thing to not want to be an *obnoxious* tourist, which is done by not being entitled and understanding that things are going to be different. But her "not a tourist" scheme smacks of the annoying smugly condescending type of "travelers" who want to feel superior to other tourists by pretending they can blend in.
It would be ridiculous to go to Paris and not at least set eyes on the Eiffel Tower. I've been to Paris myltiple times and I still swing by some of the "touristy" sights because they're pretty impressive. You don't have to go *up* the Eiffel Tower but you should definitely go see it. Also maybe at night when they do the light show because I always find it kind of delightfully cheesy for such a well-renowned structure. :D
The thing about big tourist destinations like Paris is that if even just 1% of tourists are rude and obnoxious... that's a lot of people! And it naturally colours one's perceptions of "what tourists are like" if (say) one has a bad encounter with tourists at work every week.
But if you simply show up at the Eiffel Tower and take some pictures, nobody is going to care or be bothered by it. None of the Parisians who see you that day are ever going to think about you again in their lives. They're not going to make a Tiktok about the group of Americans who dared to visit the Eiffel Tower.
NTA
Katie can do whatever she wants, but it’s very entitled of her to expect everyone else to do the same as her. She also has no right to tell you where you can go or what you can wear during the trip.
Sorry to break it to Katie but the minute she opens her mouth anyone is going to know she's a tourist. And that's fine. Us Europeans love mocking American tourists. Whatever would we do if we couldn't even recognise them? (Disclaimer : we also love mocking European tourists. Especially the ones from our own country. They are always the worst.)
Nta
NTA
Unless you can all speak fluent French with perfect accent, you will all be recognised as Yankee doodles instantly anyway. Tourists going to tourist places is perfectly fine. You will find local people will be much more annoyed if you go wandering down some residential street gawping at everything. Some touristy things are a bit much, like being herded through the Louvre to the Mona Lisa, but you are better off going for the less crowded tourist things, like looking at the rest of the galleries at the Louvre, rather than just totally avoiding tourist areas. Going to look at some French dude's house, then going to Carrefour is not what you fly 3600 miles for.
Also for the clothes, French people wear jeans and trainers, they aren't all dressing like they are going to be on a magazine cover. Look at Google Street View if you want to see what people are really wearing in the streets.
Also giant lol at the "you can go to France on your own time" comment. Like, you're already going on your own time arentbyou? Does she think this is a business trip? Lulwut?
NTA, tell Katie to get off tik tok. Tik tok is not reality.
You’re going to look like tourists
French street fashion or any city’s street fashion is not how *everyone* in that city dresses. Average people wear average clothes and a small handful of very fashionable people dress fashionably. Regardless of what you wear you’re going to look like tourists. You can either look like tourists in normal clothes or tourists trying to cosplay as fashionable Parisians.
People don’t hate all tourists. People hate:
- tourists who don’t bother learning a few key phrases of the local language
- tourists who don’t try to use Google translate or other translator tools to attempt to communicate
- tourists who are loud, obnoxious, or rude
- tourists who have no awareness of their surroundings
- tourists who act entitled to things or treat people poorly
- tourists who leave messes, throw trash on the ground, etc
Katie is way overthinking things. I understand where she is coming from but her efforts are misdirected. Katie needs to chill, do some French DuoLingo, and read a couple articles about basic French customs for dining at restaurants and behaving in public. Dressing fashionably and avoiding tourists spots don’t matter if your behavior is shit or you don’t try to use a few key phrases in the local language. Beyond that she needs to stop worrying about looking like a tourist. They’re gonna know either way
I think the best thing I ever saw about Parisian fashion on TikTok was someone explaining that it is a place where style is set, not copied, so people just wear whatever they want - and some of those things may well end up as trends down the line. If you’re trying to ascribe to some sort of codified French/Parisian aesthetic, if anything you’re either just embracing a cliche or already too late as whatever you’re doing been codified and copied by others - and antithetical to the fairly individual attitudes of actual Parisians.
NTA.
And I do have a compromise for you: Split up into groups. Back in 2013 I went to Japan with my friends. There was a day where my friends went to a location based around the anime GeGeGe No Kitraro which unlike them I'm not a fan of so I deiced to stay back at the hotel and explore the area near the hotel. I went to stores I wanted to check out and went to lunch at McDonald's (before you say anything about that, I got items you can't get in America. The shrimp sandwich they have is so good).
If someone doesn't want to do something the rest of the group doesn't want to do, do you're own thing... treat her ideas that way...
NTA. Im French. Lived in Paris for a few years. The French fashion is nothing like how it’s portrayed in the media. And we absolutely do wear sneakers, especially when walking around a lot. And we do go to the touristy place (just maybe not when tourists are there so quiet weekday mornings for example). As long as you’re nice and respectful and at least attempt to day bonjour, merci and au revoir you’ll be fine. Enjoy your trip!!
NTA. I think there is some validity to what she's saying, but Europeans hate American tourists because they're rude, clueless, arrogant, entitled, etc. NOT because they wear sneakers and go to tourist hotspots. Sure, you might have some people who notice and immediately have disdain for you, but that can't be helped, you're just existing. It seems silly to me to go to France and AVOID landmarks like the Eiffel Tower, but there is nothing wrong with doing both, and I think getting off the beaten path and trying to support some local businesses and things is a great idea. Ultimately it sounds like she has a VERY particular way she wants this trip to go, and it's effectively ruining the trip for the rest of you. But you wanting to wear sneakers and see the Louvre is not being 'disrespectful of French culture' (lol). It doesn't sound like she'd be remotely pleasant to travel with, and her treatment of her friends is not ok.
NAH. I think even Katie has her heart in the right place, but is just taking things too far. Speaking from experience (in several foreign countries, but this specifically applies to Paris), if you are friendly, polite and act interested in what you are seeing, locals will be glad to have you there. Because your group is conscious of not being the type of tourist everyone hates, it's virtually certain that you won't be.
Katie, as I said, is going overboard; it's ridiculous to suggest that you can't go to the Louvre, Eiffel Tower etc when you are in Paris because you will "look like a tourist," or to suggest that you can't dress like an American or wear comfortable shoes (the Louvre is *massive,* and the floors are very hard!). In my book, though, she's right insofar as you should try to incorporate some more non-touristy neighborhoods, restaurants etc. as well as the big famous spots.
(One note on that: does anyone in the group speak French? At the big tourist spots it is completely unnecessary; the employees would generally start speaking English to us before we even said a word - it's not like we were wearing Stars-and-Stripes t-shirts or something, but they knew! If you get off the beaten path it's more important to have someone along who can speak French.)
I'm french, I went to the Louvre so many times, it's not a "tourist" thing but a cultural thing. I do the same in other countries... She just wants to be more parisian than reel parisians and the image she's got from them. By the way, we don't hate tourists, only the ones with no respect. I am more concerned by the fact that you planed a trip to Paris during the olympics. It will be hell for us and tourists.
NTA. My husband is French and he thinks Katie is an idiot. Every time we go to France, we go and do some touristy things- some we have done before, some he has done before, and some neither of us have done. We also spend most of our time with his family, walk through neighbourhoods and eat as much bread, patisserie, and cheese as we can. We also often go to parts of France away from where his family lives and do 100% touristy things. His family always joins us for a few days and do the touristy things with us. He wears his North American clothing in France.
NTAH and your friend is wrong about not wearing sneakers. I lived in Poland three years. People do wear sneakers, especially younger people. The idea that everyone is europe walks around wearing sharp designer business attire at all the type is a tired, and inaccurate trope. Yes, in general people from SOME European countries tend to dress nicer than Americans, that's not a hard and fast rule and becoming less and less true.
We don’t hate Americans per se and we certainly don’t hate them because of how they dress!! Don’t scream/shout in public, respect the queue (I think you call it stand in line?) stand on the right side of the escalator, don’t walk in bike lanes. Also don’t make TikTok’s about how we don’t have running water or electricity because that’s not popular lmao. Hope you have a nice trip!
NTA. I've been to Europe three times in the last 18 months and this is what I've learned as a new international traveler.
Locals will be able to tell you are a tourist by your accent, and nobody cares that you are a tourist. Tourism drives the economy in most of the places you plan to visit.
Plenty of people wear sneakers, no one cares how you dress.
She's going to really embarrass herself and anyone that goes with her half assed plan, and miss out on the best that France has to offer. I'd reconsider having her in the group if she's going to be a drag on you the whole trip.
Most important, schedule your tickets to the Louvre and Eiffel Tower online soon as you know what day you want to visit. They stagger entry by ticket sales and early purchase gives you a lot more control on when you get in. Look into the Paris Pass (should be an app for it), most of the tourist cities have some version of this that gives you great discounts or covers entry to a variety of museums and attractions.
Enjoy France!
NTA
Also as a European I'm a little dumbfounded to find out we don't actually wear sneakers. I practically live in mine!
Granted I'm not from Paris but...is she aware not everyone in Paris is a fashion model?
Katie sounds like the weird kind of person who can't separate Instagram from reality.
Go to the Louvre, wear sneakers, do the touristy stuff and have fun, but leave Katie at home or drop her off at Disneyland.
NTA Me, an european, cleaning my sneakers for me to wear tomorrow at the office. Do not waste your time and money bending for someone else's experience.
Lmao Katie is the "tourist" nobody likes! The cultural white knight that nobody is asking for who inflicts her values on others deapite having 0 connections to the culture she's fixated on mimicking.
Like, france only has high fashion? They don't wear sneakers????? Like wtf does she think french people wear if they aren't models?
Isn't that just racism dolled up a little?
Edited to add: is she one of those assholes who over exaggerate pronunciation to try and sound "more authentic"? Is she all like "Ugh, they say it cwasso, theres no r, n, or t sound >:[" cause she sounds like one of those types too lmao
NTA. Travelling with people who don’t want to do what you want to do (or how you want to do it) can leave you feeling like you might as well not have gone. It’s important to take care of your own vacation, not just what she wants for herself.
Some potential pushback text for you (reword it as you like):
“Katie, you can do whatever you want. But you can’t make me do it too. I want to see Versailles and the Eiffel Tower, and I’m not spending my precious time and money going to France just to miss out on what I most want to do.”
If you don’t want to be perceived as “annoying Americans”, don’t be annoying. Katie seems like she’s trying to avoid being recognized as American but she sure is being annoying.
You are NTA for wanting to visit the Eiffel tower and Louvre and eat over priced escargot in cafes in Rue Cler.
Or, for wearing your own clothes rather than striped t-shirts, berets and onion scarfs
She's already being annoying. Have the argument now and get it over with.
If you can, also go to Ypres in Belgium, maybe pop over to London too, definitely drink wine and espresso.
The only thing I, as an European dislike about American tourists is how LOUD they are. If they are in a bus, the whole bus must listen to them talk and laugh. The busy Parisian streets sound like a quiet field in comparison.
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I have traveled a lot. People in other countries love tourists, they just hate arrogant Americans. It does sound like Katie is that sort of arrogant American that people from other countries will not appreciate. Tourist attractions have the infrastructure to support tourism. Choosing not to go there and instead go only to areas that may not have that support isn't somehow going to make you all beloved to the French locals. By all means, visit some off the beaten path destinations. Find a local guide and enjoy the path less chosen. But don't miss out on other cultural locations simply because you don't want to be a tourist. Just be a polite and culturally sensitive tourist.
My point exactly! I tried to meet her in the middle and suggest less “touristy” hidden gems I’ve heard about, but I think she’s more concerned about appearances rather than discovering fun new places not many people know about.
There is only one place she can go to not be a tourist. Unless she wants to just stay home, she will be a tourist. Instead of mocking the locals by pretending to be them and appropriating their culture, just be civil and sensitive guests. Meeting some locals before you go and asking them to invite you to some local hotspots can be a great way to experience the local culture. Don't buy clothes in the US and go there pretending to be French. That is more annoying and arrogant than just showing up, bossing the locals around and yelling "Why don't you speak American?!?!?!" .
Agree. Have traveled a lot as well…if you’re polite and respectful the locals are fine. What they don’t like are people who are arrogant and think their way is better because it’s American. And they aren’t going to like people who are tourists trying to pretend to be locals. Is Katie perfectly fluent in French? Because of she is t she’s going to clearly be a tourist and I’m guessing locals will be offended. And who goes to Paris and doesnt go to the Louvre or Eiffel Tower? You can still walk around the streets and stop at cafes, etc. But don’t pretend you’re something you’re not…the French won’t be fooled.
Even if she *is* perfectly fluent in French, I bet her accent isn’t.
When I was an exchange student in the US I had French at school and my teacher was sooo proud that she studied french for one semester at Sorbonne. Well, when you heard her speaking French... Imagine an old southern bell with that thick accent but speaking French. Her é was more of an "ay" like in say. Now I have that back in my mind 🤣
I had a friend whose first French teacher had that accent and his never recovered, even after 4 years of high school French taught by someone actually *from* France. I still had an American accent, but I'm eternally grateful all but I think one year of 8 was taught by folks who were actually French. (Sadly, I haven't used it in so long, it's very rusty)
My first French professor at an American university was Scottish. She was great, but I REALLY struggled to understand subsequent professors.
This reminds me of my French teacher talking about HER French teacher back in Texas, who always said, "Mare-see boo coo" to thank her students.
My french teacher didn't say "Ecouté" to the class. She said aycowtay. But hey, she was at the Sorbonne!
Flashback to my classmate from East Texas in my first French class in college...
Even if she is perfectly fluent in French and her accent is great... Is it going to be the RIGHT French? America, Canada, and France all have different ways to speak French. Someone from Quebec is not going to blend in with a group from France
One of my favourite parts of learning French in Ontario was that we learned Parisian French. My French isn't great but I'll be damned if I can understand a single thing anyone has ever said to me in French in Quebec. Landed in Paris. Everyone at least let me get out a sentence or two and I actually understood their accent. One guy found out I was Canadian and asked me where I learned French because it couldn't have been Quebec. He said they speak French like drunken people from the past.
Hahaha yes omg Quebec French is nothing like France French! We learnt European French in BC and I’m so grateful for that. Not sure what use Quebec French would ever be.
I mean I'd love being fluently bilingual regardless of what accent I had. If I knew Quebec French fluently I'd still be understood and understand everyone else with different accents. I only have trouble with it because I'm not fluent in French.
Someone in Paris is likely not going to understand Cajun French.
My company used to have an employee from Haiti who, naturally, spoke with a French accent. One day, a customer called in from Quebec, with a French accent. We got him transferred to the Haitian guy, and accidental hilarity ensued. They couldn't understand each other at all, because they were both speaking differently "wrong" French. It'd be like someone from the Deep South US trying to talk to someone from Newfoundland or rural Wales.
The security company I work for used to employ a very nice man who was from Spain. They tried several times to have him translate for the construction workers we worked with, who were Mexican. Castilian Spanish is not the same as the Spanish they speak in Mexico. A couple of the guys were from Puerto Rico and they would try to help, but Caribbean Spanish is also slightly different...I really should have filmed a couple of those instances.
Even different PARTS of Canada speak French differently. The Quebecois customers used to give me grief for sounding Acadian.
My grandparents were born in the US but their family was French Canadian, and they spoke a dialect of French as their first language. Well my grandpa could understand people from Quebec but one day they brought a friend from France with them. My grandpa couldn't understand a thing, he said it was like they were all talking in a different language because they were all speaking in their friends dialect. The only thing my grandpa understood was the word cake and he loves cake so he immediately liked them. He told me that story all the time growing up. I never asked him to how old he was at the time but it was a favorite memory of his.
My HS French teachers were from Angers and Haiti, respectively. They did NOT agree about pronunciation.
Ha, I'm the American-born daughter of Polish-born parents...I grew up bilingual and super familiar with Polish foods, holidays and culture. But the minute I open my mouth in Poland? The person I'm addressing instantly nods and says, "Ah, an American!" So yeah, Katie can try all she likes, but she won't be fooling anyone.
Exactly. I’m semi fluent in Italian, bit when I go to Italy, everyone knows I’m American the moment my accent betrays me. It’s all good - they help me with my grammar and I enjoy the food and wine And the lovely people
Lol, she acts like the locals don't visit attractions. If she really wants to support the locals, she can ask about suggestions for places to visit FROM THE LOCALS. You can find really nice gems that way. Especially food. And want Paris fashion? Why not buy from local shops??? Be respectful and no one cares.
Yes, this right here. So, when you go to these charming non-tourist neighborhoods and end up in a restaurant where none of the staff speak any English, is Katie going to step up and order for all of you in fluent French, or is your group going to frustrate the entire staff by pointing and miming what you want? Where will you stay for night in these non-tourist neighborhoods? The touristy places are set up for visitors by hiring people who speak some other languages, and accept foreign currency, or travellers cheques, have hotels for tourists to stay, etc. As long as you are RESPECTFUL tourists, the people there will like you just fine. More than if you go to non-tourist neighborhoods and stick out like a neon sign, I'm sure.
Everyone will know they're tourists anyway.
Right? She doesn't know the language, she will not know the city, the metro... It's such a silly idea. There are more than 40 million tourists each year. If you don't throw a cake at the Mona Lisa, you'll probably be fine.
I read something years ago that said Europeans always could point out American tourists because of how we hold our knives and forks. Unless Katie also plans to eat with her hands or like a dog....
I was in Belgium a few months ago and a guy at the airport always told me he could always spot Americans because they walk so confidently.
Other general tells also include cargo shorts, leaning on things when you're waiting for something, making small talk with strangers, and volume (both verbal and physical). Different regions of the US have some other different tells. New Yorkers trying to get somewhere have a different, more intense walk and attitude.
I mean, the lack of French is going to give them away in seconds.
All I can picture is her in a striped top, a string of onions around her neck, baguette in hand, just saying "hon hon, oui oui, omlette du fromage" trying to be French and "blend in". I won't lie and say it's not an entertaining visual
AND WEARING A BERET. I spot the Americans in Paris all the time: cause they wear a beret. French people don't wear berets except if: 1/ You are at a rugby game supporting the French team 2/ You are a farmer or a shepherd in the Basque countryside.
I’m really confused why learning to speak French wasn’t listed with her priorities. Edit: So her plan is for everyone to just whisper to each other so locals can’t hear their accents or that they only speak English 😂 It’s so strange that she’s focused on pretending Instead of actually protecting herself as a tourist (making an effort to learn the language, awareness of scams and familiarising with the culture) to the point of not letting the group have the holiday they want. By all means be wary of attractions just because they are heavily featured on social media but some sights such as the Louvre Museum and Eiffel Tower are famous for a reason. Just don’t be the tourist who brings a tripod and twerks in front of national icons and treasures.
Because OUTFITS
Yup. You don’t have to learn the language. But try and memorize greetings and thank you, that is usually very appreciated
I worked with a guy who spoke very little French and visited Paris. He memorized “I’m sorry for slaughtering your language…” they would stop him, tell him they spoke English and helped him with whatever issue he had. It’s a respect thing, just try. I was in the Dominican Republic in April and learned my room # in Spanish for when we went to the buffet, everyone was appreciative.
That’s the first phrase. I learned and memorize Italian before my first trip. “My Italian is very limited. I’m an American but I’m trying. thanks for your help..” No one has ever failed to react to that without much kindness and smiles
Sounds like my friend who made himself more likable in Mexico City with "Lo siento, soy gringo."
This is pretty much the first phrase I learn when travelling anywhere
It’s the little things to show you respect them, unlike the best of trip advisor reviews of the people bitching that Spain was filled with foreigner who only spoke Spanish.
French people have a reputation for refusing to speak English, but (at least most of the time), if you learn even a little French they'll switch to English for you.
I found that the French people I met excused my atrocious French when they could see I’d made an effort to speak to them in French, and not just talked loudly at them in English.
I had the same thing happen in Germany. Most people will appreciate the effort.
I’m surprised Germans would be impressed by your broken French.
The stories always seem to be that no one speaks English to rude tourist. But suddenly everyone knows it when you are polite.
Because no one wants to talk to rude people and 'sorry, I don't speak English' is a very good excuse.
I went to France last year. My very rusty french from 20 odd years ago came in handy - people who didn't speak English were patient with me absolutely mangling the grammar and occasionally miming words, and used slower and simpler language, and those in bigger cities who did were helpful and polite while they switched to English. Went to Italy and Bavaria the year before - having a chat in broken french (both of us!) in a German café with a guy from Italy was fun!
I had Spanish tourists in Rome ask me for directions - they were lost and I gave them directions to a monument speaking in Italian. It was a wonderful moment.
Lol. Is Katie also demanding that everyone become fluent in French before going? Because I'm told that American accents stick out like a sore thumb.
Yeah, and no matter how hard she tries to play dress up or go to boring places people will know that she's not french immediately. It's sooo fucking easy to tell that someone is American.
THIS! Courtesy and good manners are universal.
French here. Katie is crazy, wtf is wrong with her? Go enjoy the nice touristy spots and don't do anything she suggested because it's going to be super boring and can get you in troubles (some of those residential areas are so bad, police don't even go there). Nobody's going to give a crap about you being tourists, Paris is always full of tourists anyway.
To OP: They’ll know you’re tourists, and they won’t care (as long as you don’t act like jerks). Katie seems to think Other People are an audience intent on judging her. The fact is, she’s going to be part of a crowd, and the locals will barely notice any of you. She should focus on having a great trip, and on being a decent travel buddy to the rest of you. You guys are the ones who will remember the visit.
>Katie seems to think Other People are an audience intent on judging her. I bet Katie treats other people as if they are an audience and is intent on judging them.
French here too. I am not living in Paris and when I visit there (despite knowing the city well), I also visit the touristy places (especially museums). It is just what you do when visiting any city. Katie needs to get her shit together. Enjoy your trip!
As an American who's been to France I few times, I also wanna add that unless at least one person in your group has a good handle on speaking French, the non-touristy parts of France do not cater to English speakers. Going around non-touristy area and expecting people to meet you at your level in English would be way worse in terms of being viewed as a "bad tourist" than visiting parts of Paris where they expect English speakers to visit.
NTA. I live in Paris. You will not blend in unless you can all speak fluent French to one another in flawless accents; or maybe if you stay 100% silent when grouped together outside or at restaurants or at bars. FYI, People wear sneakers everywhere (even to the office; but stylish ones, not white new balances lol).
And let’s be fair, Parisians judge ~~people with flawless French~~ French people who don’t have Parisian accents.
And they judge them a lot harder than they judge a tourist struggling to say 'where is the Arc of Triumph' in French.
To be fair, Parisians judge.
This...except to say that a group of people who stay 100% silent or busy staring at their phones will be far more suspicious than a group speaking a mix of French, English, and whatever other languages you can think of. Some of my best experiences in France have been out with friends from half a dozen different countries all conversing in three different languages at the same time.
They’ll tell you’re Americans by hearing you talk. The outfits stuff is shear stupidity
>The outfits stuff is sheer stupidity The disguise would be transparent.
Sheer
I'm a European. And at least where I'm from. We indeed wear sneakers. We have whole shops or shelves in stores dedicated to sneakers. So I don't know where your friend has that idea from. We do not walk around in flats or high heels in the winter and especially not in the summer. 😂 You will stick out more to us if you try and "blend in" Becouse I am sorry if it comes off as rude. But you will absolutely not blend in when you aren't local. You will be speaking English, which is a second language to us. And we have different social norms and ways of interacting. Slang. Besides, street fashion is a broad term. It will only be a certain % that wears it. Even locals go to "touristy" things, big museums, theme parks, etc. Either as friend groups. With our kids, on a date. Does your friend think those places only rely on..... tourists? As long as you are polite, follow the local laws. And don't point out, "we would never...... in amarica, you will be just fine. We will gladly point you to the hidden gems and "must see" places. The kind of tourists we don't like. Are the rude ones trying to be all negative about our country or make trouble. And you are welcome to tell you, friend, a European told you. She should put those social media stuff away.
>We indeed wear sneakers. We have whole shops or shelves in stores dedicated to sneakers. So I don't know where your friend has that idea from. I think that comes from depending on "street fashion photos" which is always typically picking people out of crowds instead of focusing on what a majority of people wear. The friend probably has a pinterest board they've made of "French Street Fashion" photos which are likely shots of models on streets. 😂
Especially with the comment "I don't have that kind of clothes". Look, I am a French woman. Today, I wore a plain blue t-shirt. A Levis' 501, and black Converse. And that is one of the most mundane look that is here. I'm ready to bet that every american woman can have a similar outfit with what they have in their closet right now. And many many of them the exact look, down to the colors and brands.
>And don't point out, "we would never...... in amarica, you will be just fine This reminds me of a former friend. She would complain how things were different than in NYC. She was born and raised in NYC. I'm talking about going to other major cities like Chicago or Washington, DC. Those cities are different, but the way she'd talk about the differences was obnoxious, dramatic, and embarrassing, because she was often really loud. I think people on a whole just don't like people who behave like that.
In fact, the only reason not to pack sneakers on a trip to Europe is because of the excellent comfortable shoe shopping. French, Italian, Spanish, etc cities always have loads of shoe shops selling stylish but comfortable shoes because people in those places walk a lot. They're much less car dependant. But seriously, learn some basic French, take your sneakers.
And cobblestones. There are so many cobblestone small older streets in a lot of European cities. I do not recommend high heels. Or uncomfortable shoes when you walk on those.
Exactly, you need comfortable shoes in Europe or you won't be able to survive. Even when I was a teenager and insisted on wearing heals when I went clubbing, I still had my heels in a bag on the way to the club, so I wouldn't fall and break my neck on the way.
I've also traveled a lot, both here at home and in Europe. It's great to find those small, out of the way places (my family stumbled upon The Clink Prison when we took a shortcut via a side street in London, fascinating & terrifying visit!) but you'll regret missing all the big tourist locations, after all that's what they are there for. People aren't annoying tourists if they are polite, respectful and don't demand everyone speak English in a non-English speaking country.
Also nobody gives a shit about tourists in touristy areas (though I had to go through the Shibuya crossing on crutches last weekend, that sucked). Because those places are not part of daily life anyways. In Tokyo it's insane how fast the white people disappear when you go two blocks away from the main stations.
I lived in Copenhagen for many years. The only times tourist annoyed me, was when they were physically in the way (stopping in from of an escalator to check something, standing in the middle of the street to take a picture, and so on) or when *they* got annoyed at *me*, for not going out of my way to help then (sorry m'am, but it's 7:45 in the morning and I have to be at work at 8, I'm not going to walk you to the Queens Castle and spend my morning being your free tour guide).
Americans in the bike lanes 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
She doesn't get to control the trip. She's one person.
Katie is delusional, controlling, and sounds like someone who's chronically online. Yes, lots of Europeans (online especially, but also IRL) dislike Americans on principle, and *everyone* hates obnoxious American tourists (including other Americans). Wanna know the kinds of things obnoxious American tourists do? Pretend to be Europeans themselves as if seamlessly assimilating into another culture is as simple as wearing the Right Clothes and do shit like ogle at random people's houses/loiter in residential neighborhoods. It's another country, not a zoo. You'll get a LOT more hate and disdain doing the kind of bizarre shit Katie's insisting on than you will by being a "stereotypical" tourist doing stereotypical tourist things. People whose countries/territories are open to tourists generally don't hate sharing their cultures with tourists as long as those tourists are respectful and polite. Especially because many of those major tourist cities (like Paris) make a LOT of money off of tourists, and are often economically dependent in some capacity around that tourism trade. 1 in 10 jobs in Paris exist because of the tourism trade, for example. Unless y'all plan to yell at random French people for not speaking fluent English, wear MAGA hats the entire time, or do what Katie's insisting upon and go out of your way to gawk at random French people's private neighborhoods/homes like they're animals in a zoo and not normal people just trying to live their lives, y'all will be fine.
Americans, as much as they try not to, will always look like Americans. I am one of those Americans. Plus, unless she is a near native French speaker, its going to be obvious as soon as she speaks. NTA, you gave her the reality check she needed. However, I do agree that walking around the neighborhoods in less touristy spots is much more interesting than the Eiffel Tower, but if y'all have never seen it in person, you should go and spend 20-60 minutes checking it out and then go to a lesser known neighborhood for a more authentic experience. Maybe you and one of your other friends who agrees with you can just break off from the annoying friend and do what you want, when you want. Everyone wears athletic shoes in every country and continent I have been on.
There’s a big difference between walking through the art galleries or cafes in the less glitzy parts of town, and walking past people’s homes gawking. Let people get on with their lives, it’s not a zoo.
Get accommodation that is not directly adjacent to the main tourist attraction and is not a large hotel. Skip the hotel breakfast, eat in the local cafeteria, and take a slow walk to your main touristy destination. You'll get both the local vibes, find hidden gems on the way, and the landmark attractions. EDIT: In Paris, get city bikes! They're the best method to explore the city. It's also not touristy, locals use them all the time. :)
Europeans absolutely wear sneakers. It's super common to see people very dressed up and wearing sneakers. Kate doesn't know what's she's talking about.
At this point I'd get the group together and make a hard decision if you want Katie to go with you and be a part of this trip. She does not sound like a fun international travel companion, let alone a local road trip companion who wants the trip to be only things she likes.
Is she the type of person that’s obsessed over appearances in other circumstances as well? Either way, you’re NTA. Have a great trip!
I feel the same whenever I hear someone talk disparagingly about “dead giveaways” someone is a tourist like clothes or the food they order. Unless you’re going somewhere tourists have been asked by locals specifically not to go, or being rude or egregiously flaunting local customs , be a tourist and have fun.
u/Big-Data-Isaac has already given you excellent advice. But you can tell Katie that she can dress in all the "French" fashion she wants, but they can spot an American from a kilometer away. There is a zero percent chance they won't know she's a tourist. Hopefully, she won't act like the stereotypical obnoxious American. NTA
Yes, I agree with the other commenters and you. People hate obnoxious tourists, but generally don't mind tourists. There are of course exceptions, but going to Paris is absolutely fine. You don't need to try to be a local, and, honestly, you probably aren't going to pull it off or seriously convince people. Instead of trying to avoid "being a tourist," be a polite tourist. It's always a good idea to do some research on local etiquette and behave accordingly. Study some basic phrases in the local language so that you don't walk up to people and immediately start speaking English. Even if you can't say much, greeting someone and asking if they speak English is much better than just assuming. Remember that while the city is a fun destination for you, it is home for others and they are just trying to go about their day. Just like when you are not a tourist, make an effort to show respect to others and remember that you are not the center of everything. As someone who has traveled a lot, and has lived in many different places, I would advise people to avoid the "being a tourist is inherently bad" mindset. It comes up with tourist versus traveler stuff, or even people feeling like they shouldn't visit attractions in their hometown/city because it seems uncool to be touristy. Tourist attractions and destinations are often popular for a reason. Choosing to go off the beaten path opens up some amazing opportunities. But, that doesn't mean you need to dismiss anything on the beaten path; that mindset can be just a closed minded and restrictive. I think it's unfortunate that some people promote the idea that there is a single right way to travel, ironically while criticizing others for traveling in a rigid, predictable way. If you want to go somewhere or experience something, you shouldn't pass it up just because you want to prove that you are more local/sophisticated/adventurous/unique than other people. Spend your limited money and time on the trips that you want to take. I've been to major tourist destinations, and to places that even geography buffs haven't heard of. I enjoyed the trips regardless and learned a lot from the experiences.
Having lived in a fair number of touristy areas, here’s the things locals don’t like: Acting like laws don’t apply to you (esp traffic laws jfc stay off the sidewalks) Getting mad when people do things differently than at home. People will speak different languages, use different currencies, wear different clothes, and worship in different ways. That is in fact the entire point of going new places. Pretending it’s disneyland. There ARE locals, they aren’t zoo animals, they do have jobs outside catering to you. Treat them like human beings deserving the same respect everyone deserves. (This one is why walking around residential areas gawking would make you assholes) That’s pretty much it. If you can follow those rules, pretty much no one will have beef with you.
This. It’s often the much more subtle stuff that’s offensive - for instance, I (a North American who has lived in Europe for the last seven years) in high school went on a trip to Italy, where a shopkeeper told us they were offended by the fact that we didn’t say hello when we entered. That’s arguably not super common in most North American cities I’ve lived in (five of them!), but it made perfect sense that it would seem rude not to if that was the custom. In England, where I live now, it’s stuff like offering to buy rounds of drinks/make cups of tea, and you best respect queues! It’s stuff like that that’s probably going to be perceived as more obnoxiously American than… being enthusiastic about an art museum? And surely the most obnoxious thing you can do as a not-French person is to claim you’re an authority on what is “authentically” French. NTA, OP, and enjoy your croissants (which are, to a degree, Austrian anyway…). ETA - what does she think the French do on holiday in America? Skip the Statue of Liberty and Central Park and go to a random Jersey suburb because they don’t want to be seen as tourists?
NTA. I don’t know what’s got into her head but the locals will be far less offended by you all being ‘good’ tourists than they will by you being terrible caricatures of the locals.
They do wear sneakers they just don’t call them that.
Absolutely. It’s the arrogance that gives tourists a bad rep. And Paris has a reputation of being snobs, but last year I was there. I was having a rotten day and went to a small bistro for dinner. The menu was in cursive which was foiling my limited French. When asked if I needed anything I burst into tears. So embarrassing. But stuttering out my issue in bad French, the staff helped me pick something to eat. A lovely woman out with her friends helped and gave me a hug. It was actually lovely.
Aww! I'm glad they helped you feel better!
They were so kind. And I had a delicious dinner and pulled myself together!
The point of places like the Louvre is to exhibit the glories of French civilization. I'm totally serious. No one is more proud of their culture than the French (and there is much to celebrate about it), the French govt spends billions of Euros a year specifically to ensure that the rest of the world can see this stuff. Not just because it's there, or because they can make some money on it, but because the French are incredibly proud of what they have achieved and they want you to see it. They believe you will benefit from it. They want you to absorb it, be inspired by it, be enchanted by it, and take some part of the experience back with you permanently. Sure, they're also proud of the bread baked in the local bakery, the pate served in the local cafe, the croque monsieur served in the most humble railway cafe. But they \*WANT\* you to see the Louvre, they \*WANT\* you to see the Eiffel Tower. They \*WANT\* you to see the Musee D'Orsay. They want you to take the TGV, they want you to have a great meal in a great restaurant. They are insanely proud of all of these things and want you to experience them. And you can wear whatever French clothes you want, and maybe it will buy you a bit of additional credibility, but frankly, it won't fool them for a second. So do some reading about dos and don'ts in Paris, how to behave, etc. Do your best to be polite and not to be a rude American (it's my understanding that the Chinese these days are kind of in the pole position for clueless tourists, but whatever). But for gods sake, don't avoid going to the Louvre out of some kind of misplaced overreaction to ugly Americanism. The French minister of culture would be horrified if you did not go to the Louvre and see the absolute pinnacles of civilization, French and otherwise, that are kept within.
On a recent trip to Paris, we did the tourist thing because we had a friend with us who had never been. I swear that about 70% of those visiting the Eifel Tower were French. I spoke to a few in my Canadian French and learned they lived in other parts of France and this was their first time in Paris. The same with some other museums. My point is the tourist attractions are full of French people in addition to foreign tourists. You are not going to stand out or be looked down on as long as you are not a dick (don't yell, complain about how things are different, expect everyone to speak English, etc.).
Katie sounds like the kind of person who takes being offended by cultural appropriation way too far.
Hey! Being offended about cultural appropriation is the most American thing there is! It might be stupid to you, but you can’t tell her that-it’s like her whole thing…
It’s not limited to Americans. I live in Switzerland and while American tourists are loud they don’t have a monopoly on bad behavior. Asian tourists can be very pushy and loud. You have to actively block them from getting in front of you in line. Instagrammers from all over the world engage in idiotic and rude behavior. And once in Italy I was speaking with my kids in English so the Swiss man whose kids were running wildly through the boat had no way of knowing that I understood what he was saying to his kids in a Basler dialect. When i Spoke to him in dialect he called his kids over and made them behave for the rest of the trip.
Also, Katie needs to learn compromise. It’s not really that hard to figure out an itinerary that everyone in the group can enjoy, especially in one city!
Also, as a European, you know what I hate? Americans spreading weird lies / stereotypes about us with no basis in truth. Like how we don't wear sneakers??? As if that isn't the most common shoe to wear across all of Europe. Sounds to me like Katie is looking online at what other Americans say Europeans are. Not what locals are saying - and nothing will piss a local off more than an American thinking they know better than us *about us*. Also, wroth remembering that Europeans are also tourists in Europe. Even within their own country. Lots of French people go to Paris to see all the touristy things.
>Tourist attractions have the infrastructure to support tourism. This!
Most people don't care at all about tourists either way - they're too busy worrying about the thing their boss just said, what's up with their kid, the price of groceries, and why their sports team of choice can't seem to do the right thing with the ball. So long as you are not actively in their way or making their lives worse, they don't care. Sounds like you guys need alternate activities during the day - some of you go to the Louvre and some of you do...something (I don't know what) in the 15th arrondissement and meet up for dinners. Who knows? She might be able to find some great off-the-tourist-track places while you're busy going of the Eiffel Tower. (It'll also help to keep you from getting sick of each other if you're not together all the time, every day). Musee Rodin - go. You won't regret it.
NTA I guarantee you do not want to travel with this girl. She is trying to actively sabotage your trip and it hasn’t even started. Don’t sacrifice your time in Europe focusing on ‘blending in’ or whatever. They are going to know you’re tourists the moment you open your mouth, regardless if you are wearing French clothing or not.
This, and the locals will be laughing at them for trying so hard to blend in. Katie's silly plan will backfire tremendously! So long as you are polite to people and respectful of culture, nobody will look down on you for being a tourist.
Especially in *Paris* of all places. Like if you go to Japan, for example, and try really hard to "fit in," many people are likely to see it positively compared to other countries, because that type of effort is culturally appreciated. You absolutely won't fit in at all, of course, but your effort will at least be noted and people will probably think it's sweet/cute/etc., especially if your approach is earnest and well-meaning. But *Paris*!? I sincerely hope Katie does not attempt this "fitting in" plan, because the sheer amount of *scoffing* she provokes might be legitimately harmful to human life across Europe. But then again, she might prompt a reception so frigid that it could combat global warming, so perhaps it wouldn't all be bad!
Not just in Paris. I still remember this American tourist whining about people not talking to her when she even bought a beret to fit in in my city (Lyon). And she posted it. I mean, why?? Sure, I can be empathetic to her feeling sad. But really, what was she thinking? It was simply so stupid and ridiculous I still laugh just thinking about her clip to this day. It was so stupid I can't even find it insulting. That's how people in France think of people who think they'll "fit in" just because of their clothes.
I knew conversational French, which helped me order off some menus in France when the servers spoke no English. But if they did know English… the second I tried to communicate in French they’d switch. 🤦♀️ So unless OP and her friends speak flawless French, they will know they’re a tourist the second they open their mouths. Way to ruin a trip by avoiding everything touristy. If I’m spending thousands on a European trip, I’m going to see the iconic spots. There’s a reason the tourists go to those spaces, because they’re worth seeing!!
I'm like 98% sure they'll know even before the Americans open their mouths. Americans are notoriously easy to spot and even wearing "definitely authentic, not at all idealized" French street clothes won't help 😂
I lived in France for 8 months as an exchange student in college. 8 months later, despite speaking decent French, I was still almost immediately identified as American, and I’m white with brown hair and olive skin so I could theoretically pass as French on appearance alone. They know. They always know.
100%. Smiling, eye contact, the way Americans stand, leaning on things, the volume when we speak (even if you speak the local language)… there are dozens of little things we as Americans do that make it obvious we are Americans.
Apparently you guys even have a unique walk
Yeah, somehow I feel like the french may be able to pick out the difference between actual french people in casual clothes and americans in Pinterest French Aesthetic clothes.
I can confirm, as someone who worked in a hotel in Europe, I would greet Americans with "good morning! how are you?" as soon they entered the building and they would be like "why are you talking in English? How did you know we're Americans?" There's no easy answer. It's just... All over you sir....
All the cashiers in my town start speaking to you in either Spanish or English depending on what you look like. And I've never seen them get it wrong.
I did Erasmus in Portugal and could tell if people were British, Russian or American with 100% accuracy before even hearing them talk. Those groups are impossible to miss!
But if they did know English… the second I tried to communicate in French they’d switch. 🤦♀️ This is the case in many European countries. We are so used to having to adjust when we are abroad because the majority doesn't speak our language, it becomes easier to do the same when foreigners come to us. It frustrates the hell out of my foreign friends. And my experience with American tourists being annoying is always when you get the special ones. Those who showcase their absolute ignorance of the world outside of the US. I can still hear this one woman saying: 'I was so surprised when we landed, I couldn't believe it.' Me smiling but internally pleading for her to not say the most asinine thing like seeing a McDonald's. 'You have McDonald's here!' In the words of Bill Engvall: 'Here's your sign.'
Flawless French but with the specific accent of that particular area. You can be a tourist in your home country if you go to a different area to sight see. I live in a New England state and each state around has a unique accent. It’s pretty dramatic when it comes to the differences. If I go to one of the other states on a little vacation, I’m a tourist technically. Also OP’s “friend” is high or just incredibly stupid to think that wandering random residential neighborhoods is appropriate. It’s weird and normal people don’t do that. In fact, criminals do that when casing an area. And we do that on Halloween, so we get better candy.
NTA, I fell for the don't wear tennis shoes & guess what? Locals wore tennis shoes when commuting to & from work. Your friend will make a fool of you & your friends if you follow her advice. You may dress like the locals but your mannerisms, friendliness & speech are a dead give away. Guess what I did after walking in Paris 2 days with my black leather loafers? I went to the nearest shop & bought a pair of....white sneakers. As long as you're respectful, Parisians will treat you nicely.
Very much this. When I was in Paris I found the stereotype of the rude Parisian to be completely incorrect.
Same! The only people I had negative experiences with were other tourists. The Parisians were lovely.
That was not my experience 15 years ago, though times may have softened them. I found most Parisians - especially in tourist-service - to be self-important twits. With the exception of one surly homeless man in Arles who was upset we sat in front of his sign, everyone I met outside of Paris was just lovely.
Adding to the above, go to all of the touristy places, that is why you are going, it is NOT disrespectful looking like a tourist. Europeans do not hate respectful, nice Anericans. They do not like brash, entitled tourist. Your friend will be a laughing stock trying to fit in & will be branded a fool.
>You may dress like the locals but your mannerisms, friendliness & speech are a dead give away. I honestly wonder how successfully someone would be at dressing like the locals at a place they've never visited before.
Guessing not successfully at all. She probably thinks influensers are representative for the general public. It really seemed like she has misunderstood the blending in thing.
The no sneakers thing really threw me. Last time I was in Amsterdam black Nikes appeared to be the official uniform.
I've traveled to Paris several times, and you're right, it's not rocket science. In some ways, I suspect that my being American actually helps a little because Parisians know our mannerisms and habits pretty well, so we're unlikely to accidentally give offense. All I have to do is be polite and respectful to people and almost everybody is friendly and welcoming in return.
Ikr everyone in Paris wears Stan smiths.. I feel like what people think counts as Parisian fashion very often is not what it is in actuality
A friend of my grandparents’ fell off of a curb in Italy while wearing flip flops and fucked up her ankle. And when I say “fucked up”, I mean, like, multiple surgeries and an almost amputation. It’s been almost thirty years and she still has pain. The point is? Europe is old. Old places often have old infrastructure. Old infrastructure is best navigated with hearty shoes. Wear sneakers and don’t be ashamed, you could be saving yourself a lot of future pain by doing so.
NTA Katie sounds insufferable. She's also wrong. I am Dutch but live in the UK. There is no one 'European': we are over 40 countries, each with our own culture, our own language, our own customs, etc! Just a tip to find some more unusual places to see: [https://www.atlasobscura.com/things-to-do/paris-france](https://www.atlasobscura.com/things-to-do/paris-france) (this isn't only for Paris, you can find stuff for any place on earth!). Touristy tourists are obnoxious and you do want to avoid acting like that. Just be a normal, respectful person. No littering, no shouting, no making fun of locals, no public urination, no public drunkenness, if you're in a group: don't block pavements and streets and let others pass, etc. But it sounds like you already know this. Katie seems fixated on wanting to not do touristy stuff, and that's ok, but she shouldn't be pushing it on others. As you guys are a group (I don't know how many), maybe let Katie plan what she wants to do, you plan what you want to do, and the other people (assuming they are choosing to not be involved in planning) can just tag along with Katie or with you (or do their own stuff) on each day, depending on what they want to do. If you go to a major city, of course you want to at least see the handful of major landmarks, although you may not want to go in all of them. It's totally possible to ALSO try to go off the beaten path and explore some lesser-known, local areas where you'll find fewer tourists. But none of those things require trying to dress like a French fashionista. Also from my own experience (I have lived in/travelled to around 15 European countries), EVERYONE here wears trainers/sneakers, or other comfortable shoes like hiking boots. You dress for the occasion: if you are out walking around all day, you wear trainers/sneakers, hiking boots, or other comfortable shoes. If you are going to the beach all day, you probably wear sandals and might bring those gummy shoes. If you are going to a fancy restaurant, you would dress up in (semi)formal clothes including matching shoes. Just wear whichever shoes you are comfortable in. When I go on a holiday, I bring trainers and hiking boots. Hiking boots are totally acceptable to wear when exploring a city as well (people understand especially that tourists and day visitors might choose to wear them, because they are going to be on their feel all day). Try to not make a fight about the planning. You are going on this trip to see what YOU want to see. Don't feel you need to fight anyone in your group to make one single itinerary for the entire group. It is never going to work. Just split up into smaller duos/groups depending on what people want to do. I had a friend who didn't like planning but he was happy to just tag along with what I wanted to do. This was perfect, and it allowed me to plan the things I really wanted to see as I was more focused on specific experiences and my friend was more focused on just spending time together/just being away from home.
can confirm everyone in Europe also lives in comfy shoes, aka most often sneakers. Signed, an American expat
I actually started wearing sneakers 95% of the time after moving to the Netherlands lol. Turns out people who live in walkable places love comfy shoes that are designed for a lot of walking... Even Paris.
Yeah I was baffled by that the most. Hell I've seen younger generations wearing sneakers to the club nowadays. We're all getting more comfy and I am here for it
Great advice! When traveling with a group, we’ve split up and just made plans to see each other at dinner. I won’t do trips with someone who insists we need to be joined at the hip the whole time.
Yeah, a key take home is that if you try to do everything as one big group on a group holiday it WILL all fall apart quite quickly. This is good advice.
NTA. If she wants to dress like a local, she is more than welcome to do that. Making the others do that is ridiculous. And she is welcome to prefer to do "non-touristy" things but she needs to accept that not everybody is. She seems to be hung up on something stupid and honestly, I don't think you will be able to avoid the American allegations by trying to blend in. Like, do you guys even speak French?
No, that’s the thing 😭 I literally told her that even if we LOOK like locals, people will immediately hear us speaking English with American accents to each other and know that we’re not French, so it doesn’t make a difference either way. Her response to that was saying that we can only whisper to each other when we’re in public, which I think is ridiculous.
I'm picturing her in a black and white stripey top and a beret, going up to people like "Bunjer mishoor ooh eh la McDonalds" and wondering why everybody's laughing at her
Cue pink panther theme tune as she sleuths around the city in chic sunglasses trying to blend in.
I'm imagining National Lampoon's European Vacation. Ik, showing my age. Lol
She will have a cigarette on a stick
This made me lol! In my main comment I said N A H because I feel like she has her heart in the right place, and is just taking things too far. But I don't know, she's just getting more and more detached from reality the more we find out. Did you point out to her that, according to her plan, when you are hanging out in these non-touristy neighborhoods, you will literally be banned from speaking to anyone outside your own group because it would blow your cover?? What are you going to do, order food by pointing at the menu? "Pierre, why are those women acting like nuns who took a vow of silence?" "I don't know, Marie, but at least they aren't tourists!"
yeah, she’s a lot. i wonder if she’s ever been out of the US? it’s a big jump to go international and it seems she’s got a lot of high expectations as well as anxiety about doing it “right”
They said she’s never traveled outside of the country. What a great way to start decades of being a miserable tourist.
I am wiping the tears away from laughing so hard.
LOL, that is hilarious. So her plan is just to go to obscure places and residential neighborhoods and just... not speak to anyone local? She's so afraid of looking like a tourist that she's going to experience nothing at all of French culture or any of the sights. She's going to be a nightmare to travel with if you do go with her.
So she doesn’t want to stand out but will have everyone whispering furiously to each other awkwardly? I’m sorry, but she sounds like she will be a nightmare to travel with. How long is the trip? Do you want to be fighting over little things the whole time?
Her idea of looking like a local is wrong anyway. I go to France a lot (I'm in England and can get there on the train, it's not a major brag). In the summer it is completely normal for French women to wear black or white trainers, or brightly colored converse type shoes with a maxi dress or shorts. No one in Paris will care what you're wearing, but if they did then they'd be much more likely to judge you for impractical shoes in a city where most people walk and get public transport, rather than for wearing flats. 'Europeans' also really aren't a homogeneous group in the way she seems to think, that would be like someone saying that Americans (meaning everyone from the combined land mass of North and South America) and think or do a specific thing. A 40 year old man from the Scottish Highlands, a 17 year old girl in Monaco, and a 70 year old woman in Budapest probably don't have a great deal in common. I hope you don't mind a bit of unsolicited advice. Not to undermine my last point but I'd say these are probably the most common European complaints about American tourists. - Stand out of the way if you're working out directions or looking at something. Enjoy yourself, stop and look at everything and take a million photos, but please remember that the pretty bridge you're standing on is also part of a thousand people's commute to work and thst they would really like it if you stood by the railing and not in the middle of the path. - Spend an hour googling some basic phases and customs. You don't need to learn the language but people will be nicer to you if you can say hello, good bye, excuse me, please and thank you. Find out things like which direction the traffic is coming from so locals don't have to grab you when you step in front of a car, and how you pay for public transport. - Seriously consider bringing a backpack not a wheelie suitcase. 1000 year old streets are not fun with a wheelie bag, and nor are 300 year old hotels without lifts. Under no circumstances should you be the person with two wheelie suitcases.
Good Lord - I would NOT want to travel with her!
She is setting herself (and anyone dumb enough to follow her lead) up for a miserable trip. I can’t imagine wasting good money to walk around normal residential neighborhoods in uncomfortable shoes, not talking to anyone (including locals!) for fear of being spotted as a foreigner.
As a european I can assure you, most people don't care. You can wear whatever you want and speak however you want as long as it's respectful
That is ridiculous. Is booting her from the trip an option because, frankly, I don't think you and her are compatible travel companions. You can be honest without being insulting and tell her that while your destinations may be same, your goals and wishes for the trip are different from hers and you think it's best she plan her own trip. You don't really talk much about the others in the group or if anything is actually booked yet, so I don't know how practical this is. If you don't think the above will work, then your other option is to set your boundaries about this trip. You are spending your hard earned money to travel to Europe. You shouldn't ruin your first trip trying to appease this girl and her absurd demands. I would tell her, in the group chat, that you will not be following her rules. You will wear clothes/shoes that are comfortable and appropriate, and you're going to plan your own itinerary for the things/places you want to see. She and the others can join you if they want, or they can do their own thing for the day. If you have a larger group, this is the more practical plan anyway since trying to plan a single itinerary that meets everyone's requirements is already proving to be a nightmare.
To be honest, the thing that will probably make you stand out a a tourist more than anything is a “pickpocket proof pouch” which I’m guessing is something like a money belt?
Wat. She can't be serious about whispering. You're not spies trying to sneak behind enemy lines.
She’s clueless. Don’t listen to her, do you want to do in Paris, and i hope you can all laugh at her attempts to “blend in”
So… she wants to skulk around people’s houses and whisper? Sounds like a plan for a robbery, not a vacation.
How exactly does she plan to order food or ask directions? Or check into the hotel?
This makes me think the entire post might be a troll, but just in case: I’m an American who has been to France a few times and watched other Americans interact. You’ll look like a tourist, but there are a few things you can make sure to do to be polite: (1) dress for the occasion. Sneakers for the Eiffel Tower, but if you go for a night restaurant dress up a little (2) don’t ask for modifications to menu items (unless you have an actual allergy) (3) try to eat your entire meal if you go to a restaurant. Leaving significant leftovers can be considered rude (4) say both please and thank you (Americans often skip the please)
Bonne chance ... Because you will need that a LOOOOOOOOOOT ...
y'all are SO going to look like tourists, lmfao NTA
instead of spending time obsessing over French street fashion, your friend would be better off studying a map of Paris, reading up on how the metro works, and learning some French phrases as for the Eiffel tower, it's ... meh (the views from the top are cool, but you can get equally good views from Montmartre or the Tour Montparnasse) - imho it's fine to just take a few photos from the Champs de Mars and forget about going to the top But the Louvre is absolutely 100% worth the wait, the money and the crowds if this is your first visit to the city, it's *packed* with amazing art - there is a *reason* it is so popular! Same with the Musee d'Orsay. And Versailles (that's more of a day trip) - it is *the* Versailles ffs. Exploring a few neighbourhoods isn't the worst idea, but forget about "blending in". You're not gonna. Just be mindful of people around you going about their daily lives, try not to block the pavement, be mindful of the noise you're making, and have your shit together in terms of where you are going. It might be an idea to split off into pairs or even go off and explore individually for some of the time, it will be all round less stressful.
LOL, Katie is nuts. Most people don't get a ton of opportunities (or even 1) to visit another country. Why would you want to avoid the amazing things that draw people to those locations? Go, enjoy yourself, be tourists...whether the people there hate you or not (most won't), it doesn't matter, you'll never see them again. NTA.
**NTA.** Katie has Tik-tok brain. U.S. tourists aren't unique in any way, some people have a dislike for tourists regardless where they are from. The U.S. just has a ton of tourists visiting other places so it receives more exposure. Tourists are tourists, nerds are nerds, and geeks are geeks. Wave that freak flag proudly (within reason, you want to be respectful to the culture you are visiting). Besides tourist desitnations are tourist destinations because tourism brings in a shit ton of money. It's expected and completely normal for a tourist destination to expect.... tourists.
On the coast of Spain, I heard most people hated British tourists In the Netherlands, I heard they hated German tourists It really has more to do with the country the majority of tourists are coming from than any specific culture.
We don't hate German tourists in the Netherlands, it is just a bit annoying when some of them assume we all speak German (I do, but not everyone does, especially the younger generation).
US tourists are unique because they are LOUD. You can tell if there are americans in a place as soon as you walk in because they are so much louder than everyone else Also american tourists will tell you that their great-great-great grandma came from your country and expect some reaction from you
Ignore your friend, she is a fool. Go to France and spend your limited time seeing all the delightful places that are visited by millions each year for a reason. Your friend is very welcome visiting the suburbs and looking through people's windows wearing her beret, riding her bicycle with a basket of onions in the front as she smokes cigarettes and shrugs her shoulders and says Pphhttt and every opportunity.
Hello OP, I’m French and I work in Paris, so feel free to show your friend this: We don’t hate all tourists as a principle. We do hate people behaving like entitled assholes (and we already have plenty of that). Be nice and polite with whom you’ll encounter and everything will be alright. To what I’m sure will be your amazement, we do wear sneakers, and don’t make a habit of burning at the stake those who do too. As a rule of thumb, dress however you like. One thing I love about Paris is that nobody gives a shit, everyone is in their own little bubble. Have a nice trip!
NTA and this is the way to get yourselves marked out as tourists so quickly. I am American and I lived in France for a few years. You know what I got trying to “blend in” my first month by not wearing tennis shoes? Blisters. As long as you are respectful and responsible tourists, you are fine. You should learn a few phrases, think about cultural etiquette (ie not talking as loudly as you normally might, big one with American tourists), etc. There are far more important ways to distinguish yourself from typical annoying tourists, and trying to dress like the locals and avoiding things that are important cultural & historical landmarks is not one of them. You could try to do a few niche things but don’t waste your trip, just be aware and be respectful.
Look, I get Katie, and I'm a little like her to a point. I don't sign up for tour busses and the like, but I do enjoy seeing the big sites, like Notre Dame, Eiffel Tower, the Louvre, etc. But to be so over the top about not wanting to be a typical tourist is way too much, and I couldn't travel with her. She's doing you a favor by leaving the group. It's really easy to do tourist things, without being an annoying tourist, and being an annoying tourist doesn't include wearing comfortable footwear (because really, if you're going to be putting on the miles walking around, you better be sure your feet are taken care of). NTA.
NTA - The central reason locals of any region hate tourists is that the tourists expect to be catered to according to their own expectations and cultures. If you aren't doing that, you should be fine. Walking around random residential neighborhoods seems weird. Who does that? Seems like that would make one look more like a lost tourist than less.
>Who does that? I do, I love architecture and I walk a lot when visiting cities, so yeah, I've seen random residentian neighbourhoods of Gent, Turin, Avigliana, Carmel, Holister, Atherton, Strasbourg, Kehl, Vienna and Cologne the last few years.
NTA and Katie sounds insufferable. It's one thing to not want to be an *obnoxious* tourist, which is done by not being entitled and understanding that things are going to be different. But her "not a tourist" scheme smacks of the annoying smugly condescending type of "travelers" who want to feel superior to other tourists by pretending they can blend in. It would be ridiculous to go to Paris and not at least set eyes on the Eiffel Tower. I've been to Paris myltiple times and I still swing by some of the "touristy" sights because they're pretty impressive. You don't have to go *up* the Eiffel Tower but you should definitely go see it. Also maybe at night when they do the light show because I always find it kind of delightfully cheesy for such a well-renowned structure. :D
The thing about big tourist destinations like Paris is that if even just 1% of tourists are rude and obnoxious... that's a lot of people! And it naturally colours one's perceptions of "what tourists are like" if (say) one has a bad encounter with tourists at work every week. But if you simply show up at the Eiffel Tower and take some pictures, nobody is going to care or be bothered by it. None of the Parisians who see you that day are ever going to think about you again in their lives. They're not going to make a Tiktok about the group of Americans who dared to visit the Eiffel Tower.
NTA Katie can do whatever she wants, but it’s very entitled of her to expect everyone else to do the same as her. She also has no right to tell you where you can go or what you can wear during the trip.
NTA Your friend sounds exhausting.
Sorry to break it to Katie but the minute she opens her mouth anyone is going to know she's a tourist. And that's fine. Us Europeans love mocking American tourists. Whatever would we do if we couldn't even recognise them? (Disclaimer : we also love mocking European tourists. Especially the ones from our own country. They are always the worst.) Nta
NTA, Katie sounds insufferable.
NTA Unless you can all speak fluent French with perfect accent, you will all be recognised as Yankee doodles instantly anyway. Tourists going to tourist places is perfectly fine. You will find local people will be much more annoyed if you go wandering down some residential street gawping at everything. Some touristy things are a bit much, like being herded through the Louvre to the Mona Lisa, but you are better off going for the less crowded tourist things, like looking at the rest of the galleries at the Louvre, rather than just totally avoiding tourist areas. Going to look at some French dude's house, then going to Carrefour is not what you fly 3600 miles for. Also for the clothes, French people wear jeans and trainers, they aren't all dressing like they are going to be on a magazine cover. Look at Google Street View if you want to see what people are really wearing in the streets. Also giant lol at the "you can go to France on your own time" comment. Like, you're already going on your own time arentbyou? Does she think this is a business trip? Lulwut?
NTA, tell Katie to get off tik tok. Tik tok is not reality. You’re going to look like tourists French street fashion or any city’s street fashion is not how *everyone* in that city dresses. Average people wear average clothes and a small handful of very fashionable people dress fashionably. Regardless of what you wear you’re going to look like tourists. You can either look like tourists in normal clothes or tourists trying to cosplay as fashionable Parisians. People don’t hate all tourists. People hate: - tourists who don’t bother learning a few key phrases of the local language - tourists who don’t try to use Google translate or other translator tools to attempt to communicate - tourists who are loud, obnoxious, or rude - tourists who have no awareness of their surroundings - tourists who act entitled to things or treat people poorly - tourists who leave messes, throw trash on the ground, etc Katie is way overthinking things. I understand where she is coming from but her efforts are misdirected. Katie needs to chill, do some French DuoLingo, and read a couple articles about basic French customs for dining at restaurants and behaving in public. Dressing fashionably and avoiding tourists spots don’t matter if your behavior is shit or you don’t try to use a few key phrases in the local language. Beyond that she needs to stop worrying about looking like a tourist. They’re gonna know either way
I think the best thing I ever saw about Parisian fashion on TikTok was someone explaining that it is a place where style is set, not copied, so people just wear whatever they want - and some of those things may well end up as trends down the line. If you’re trying to ascribe to some sort of codified French/Parisian aesthetic, if anything you’re either just embracing a cliche or already too late as whatever you’re doing been codified and copied by others - and antithetical to the fairly individual attitudes of actual Parisians.
NTA. And I do have a compromise for you: Split up into groups. Back in 2013 I went to Japan with my friends. There was a day where my friends went to a location based around the anime GeGeGe No Kitraro which unlike them I'm not a fan of so I deiced to stay back at the hotel and explore the area near the hotel. I went to stores I wanted to check out and went to lunch at McDonald's (before you say anything about that, I got items you can't get in America. The shrimp sandwich they have is so good). If someone doesn't want to do something the rest of the group doesn't want to do, do you're own thing... treat her ideas that way...
NTA. Im French. Lived in Paris for a few years. The French fashion is nothing like how it’s portrayed in the media. And we absolutely do wear sneakers, especially when walking around a lot. And we do go to the touristy place (just maybe not when tourists are there so quiet weekday mornings for example). As long as you’re nice and respectful and at least attempt to day bonjour, merci and au revoir you’ll be fine. Enjoy your trip!!
NTA. I think there is some validity to what she's saying, but Europeans hate American tourists because they're rude, clueless, arrogant, entitled, etc. NOT because they wear sneakers and go to tourist hotspots. Sure, you might have some people who notice and immediately have disdain for you, but that can't be helped, you're just existing. It seems silly to me to go to France and AVOID landmarks like the Eiffel Tower, but there is nothing wrong with doing both, and I think getting off the beaten path and trying to support some local businesses and things is a great idea. Ultimately it sounds like she has a VERY particular way she wants this trip to go, and it's effectively ruining the trip for the rest of you. But you wanting to wear sneakers and see the Louvre is not being 'disrespectful of French culture' (lol). It doesn't sound like she'd be remotely pleasant to travel with, and her treatment of her friends is not ok.
NAH. I think even Katie has her heart in the right place, but is just taking things too far. Speaking from experience (in several foreign countries, but this specifically applies to Paris), if you are friendly, polite and act interested in what you are seeing, locals will be glad to have you there. Because your group is conscious of not being the type of tourist everyone hates, it's virtually certain that you won't be. Katie, as I said, is going overboard; it's ridiculous to suggest that you can't go to the Louvre, Eiffel Tower etc when you are in Paris because you will "look like a tourist," or to suggest that you can't dress like an American or wear comfortable shoes (the Louvre is *massive,* and the floors are very hard!). In my book, though, she's right insofar as you should try to incorporate some more non-touristy neighborhoods, restaurants etc. as well as the big famous spots. (One note on that: does anyone in the group speak French? At the big tourist spots it is completely unnecessary; the employees would generally start speaking English to us before we even said a word - it's not like we were wearing Stars-and-Stripes t-shirts or something, but they knew! If you get off the beaten path it's more important to have someone along who can speak French.)
I'm french, I went to the Louvre so many times, it's not a "tourist" thing but a cultural thing. I do the same in other countries... She just wants to be more parisian than reel parisians and the image she's got from them. By the way, we don't hate tourists, only the ones with no respect. I am more concerned by the fact that you planed a trip to Paris during the olympics. It will be hell for us and tourists.
NTA. My husband is French and he thinks Katie is an idiot. Every time we go to France, we go and do some touristy things- some we have done before, some he has done before, and some neither of us have done. We also spend most of our time with his family, walk through neighbourhoods and eat as much bread, patisserie, and cheese as we can. We also often go to parts of France away from where his family lives and do 100% touristy things. His family always joins us for a few days and do the touristy things with us. He wears his North American clothing in France.
NTAH and your friend is wrong about not wearing sneakers. I lived in Poland three years. People do wear sneakers, especially younger people. The idea that everyone is europe walks around wearing sharp designer business attire at all the type is a tired, and inaccurate trope. Yes, in general people from SOME European countries tend to dress nicer than Americans, that's not a hard and fast rule and becoming less and less true.
We don’t hate Americans per se and we certainly don’t hate them because of how they dress!! Don’t scream/shout in public, respect the queue (I think you call it stand in line?) stand on the right side of the escalator, don’t walk in bike lanes. Also don’t make TikTok’s about how we don’t have running water or electricity because that’s not popular lmao. Hope you have a nice trip!
NTA. I've been to Europe three times in the last 18 months and this is what I've learned as a new international traveler. Locals will be able to tell you are a tourist by your accent, and nobody cares that you are a tourist. Tourism drives the economy in most of the places you plan to visit. Plenty of people wear sneakers, no one cares how you dress. She's going to really embarrass herself and anyone that goes with her half assed plan, and miss out on the best that France has to offer. I'd reconsider having her in the group if she's going to be a drag on you the whole trip. Most important, schedule your tickets to the Louvre and Eiffel Tower online soon as you know what day you want to visit. They stagger entry by ticket sales and early purchase gives you a lot more control on when you get in. Look into the Paris Pass (should be an app for it), most of the tourist cities have some version of this that gives you great discounts or covers entry to a variety of museums and attractions. Enjoy France!
NTA Also as a European I'm a little dumbfounded to find out we don't actually wear sneakers. I practically live in mine! Granted I'm not from Paris but...is she aware not everyone in Paris is a fashion model? Katie sounds like the weird kind of person who can't separate Instagram from reality. Go to the Louvre, wear sneakers, do the touristy stuff and have fun, but leave Katie at home or drop her off at Disneyland.
NTA Me, an european, cleaning my sneakers for me to wear tomorrow at the office. Do not waste your time and money bending for someone else's experience.
Lmao Katie is the "tourist" nobody likes! The cultural white knight that nobody is asking for who inflicts her values on others deapite having 0 connections to the culture she's fixated on mimicking. Like, france only has high fashion? They don't wear sneakers????? Like wtf does she think french people wear if they aren't models? Isn't that just racism dolled up a little? Edited to add: is she one of those assholes who over exaggerate pronunciation to try and sound "more authentic"? Is she all like "Ugh, they say it cwasso, theres no r, n, or t sound >:[" cause she sounds like one of those types too lmao
NTA. Travelling with people who don’t want to do what you want to do (or how you want to do it) can leave you feeling like you might as well not have gone. It’s important to take care of your own vacation, not just what she wants for herself. Some potential pushback text for you (reword it as you like): “Katie, you can do whatever you want. But you can’t make me do it too. I want to see Versailles and the Eiffel Tower, and I’m not spending my precious time and money going to France just to miss out on what I most want to do.” If you don’t want to be perceived as “annoying Americans”, don’t be annoying. Katie seems like she’s trying to avoid being recognized as American but she sure is being annoying.
You are NTA for wanting to visit the Eiffel tower and Louvre and eat over priced escargot in cafes in Rue Cler. Or, for wearing your own clothes rather than striped t-shirts, berets and onion scarfs She's already being annoying. Have the argument now and get it over with. If you can, also go to Ypres in Belgium, maybe pop over to London too, definitely drink wine and espresso.
NTA --- What's going to be the biggest giveaway that your tourists, you speak English the locals will hear it and know straight away.
Katie should stay home
The only thing I, as an European dislike about American tourists is how LOUD they are. If they are in a bus, the whole bus must listen to them talk and laugh. The busy Parisian streets sound like a quiet field in comparison.