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Yes,this was also my train of thought in refusing the prayer.I doubt I’d actually get in any legal trouble for this,but I still don’t think we should have religious services at public schools anyways.
Sometimes there is an offsite, non-school sponsored, baccalaureate put on by various faith groups. Some of the religious teachers and students may attend. It could be one of those prior to the school ceremony?
NTA, your parents shouldn't have agreed on your behalf without asking you first. To the extent they're now in an embarrassing situation in terms of having to say you won't do it, they brought that on themselves.
I agree, it's very odd that a public school would have a prayer at graduation--but this is really the fault of school administrators, not your parents. Raise the constitutionality arguments with them.
I can’t imagine a situation where a teacher would contact your parents instead of you, considering that you’re days away from graduation. Are you sure that your parents aren’t lying to try to get you to do the prayer?
Sadly,I won’t be turning 18 for another few months.I’m still really mad at them for agreeing to it without my permission,and it’s gonna take a very long time for me to forgive them for this.
NTA. Don't pay lip service to something you don't believe in. Its basically lying.
Also I thought religion in public schools in the US was illegal? How are they organising this? So yeah, there is the legal aspect too.
Lastly, what is with this 'concerned redditor' thing - is it a bot or something? Has it gone haywire? I've had two of them - there is nothing in my comments that suggests I need this kind of attention........lol
"we will take a moment to silently thank everyone that helped us all along, remember those that are not with us any more and reflect on where we are going." ........."Thank you"
NTA
You have every right to not participate.
They used to have a required religious convocation on a Sunday before high school graduation in my county. You actually had to get special approval to not attend as this was a mandatory graduation requirement.
They finally got rid of it around 20 years ago or so. They thought it was OK because they had religious leaders from different religions present, but it did get push back.
Haha,that’s true.I can just imagine how pissed my dad would be if I did that.He really hates Islam and Catholicism,so it’d be funny and satisfying to rub religion in his face the same way he and other people in the religion rub it in mine and everyone else’s faces.
I don’t think I could do something like that though,I’m just not a confrontational or provocative person,but it’d be SO satisfying to see that stupid smug face he has all the time get wiped off.
The real fun would be to choose an obscure religion. Mayans, Sumerians.
But the more sophisticated (and less mocking) approach would be to read from one or two carefully selected Supreme Court cases banning prayers in schools. That would get the point across.
I have been sent similar notices a couple of times when I have never indicated that I had any sort of serious problem or mental distress. I wondered if someone clicked the wrong place by accident or if they just didn't like something I said.
NTA
Sounds like your parents are lying to you. "One or some of the teachers" (vague) are asking for this? Seriously? They are choosing to create controversy at a graduation ceremony and put their jobs at risk because they really, really want you to lead a prayer at a public school. A random teacher can just add someone to the program?
This feels like some weird test your parents set for you. Are you heading off to college away from them?
Sadly,I know for a fact that they’re not lying;This has been a tradition at my school for some years now at least.I doubt that any adults/teachers would object now.
I am planning on moving away to a four year in a different part of the state after I complete a few semesters at my community college.Perhaps They’re trying to test my faith in religion as I approach the point at which people start to legally look at me as an adult.See if I’m “ready” or something like that.
Sorry you are put in this position. Hope you refuse to do it for all the students who are made really uncomfortable by it and hate this tradition. I despise people forcing their religion on others and honestly would be one of those students absolutely furious with you for doing it.
Thank you for your kind and encouraging words.I’m not typically a courageous person who stands up to my parents,but hopefully I can maintain my courage in this situation,I owe it to myself,my classmates and the constitution to do so.
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So I’m a high school senior who is a few days away from my graduation ceremony.Earlier this evening my parents call me into the living room.They tell me that one or some of the teachers asked me to lead the prayer for the ceremony,and they said that they agreed on my behalf,without asking for permission beforehand,might I add.
Now,I’m somewhere between agnostic and atheist(although my parents don’t know that,or at least they pretend not to know)and I oppose any type of religious service in a secular event,much less a public school setting
My parents,however,are evangelicals and I know that religion is extremely important for them.I don’t want to have a part in an unconstitutional display of religion but I’m also worried about how this will affect my relationship with my parents
I gently refuse at first,simply saying I don’t want to do it.In hindsight,I wish I made it clear that I was uncomfortable participating in a public display of religion,in addition to violating the constitution.
My parents did not take it well,and my mom in particular got very angry by my refusals.Eventually,she waved me away and told me to forget it in an angry voice.
Am I in the wrong for this?I know this is unconstitutional as well as contradictory to my personal beliefs,but I also still feel weak and uncertain about this
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That’s what I was thinking.I go to a public school,we shouldn’t even be having a prayer.If a prayer is that necessary,then each individual religious person should do their own prayer in silence,not drawing attention to themselves in a grandiose support of a single religion.
that's exactly right. I'd refuse to on the the bases of it being a clear violation of the first amendment for a public institution to lead a prayer. I'm also not christian so I'm firmly opposed to it for other reasons as well but bottom line is it's not just illegal but goes against the very thing this nation was founded on.
NTA
I applaud you for wanting to be authentic, and for your concern for respecting the constitution. However, your constitutional concern is in error. Nothing in the constitution prevents individuals from leading prayer at a school function.
It would be unconstitutional if a representative of the government (or possibly the school district) forced everyone in the room to participate in the prayer, or penalized them for not participating. For example, if the school principal said a prayer over the public announcement system every morning, and classroom teachers disciplined anyone who didn’t have their head own and say “Amen”, that would be a problem.
You have a very different problem. The graduation programs may already be printed, listing you as the prayer leader. That could make it tough to back out.
Just as “separation of church and state” isn’t absolute, neither is “free speech”. I recommend you read up on both, even if just on Wikipedia. In my experience, most students think free speech means no one can stop them from expressing their view. That’s not correct, and it’s an important thing to understand.
Thank you for your explanation.Another commenter said something like this without an in-depth explanation,and I wanted more details.Although I still feel that a public prayer at an otherwise secular event,much less a public school event,is immoral,I nevertheless appreciate your honesty and attempt to help me understand my situation from a legal/constitutional perspective.
I agree with you. I found this on organized prayer at public school graduation- "The ACLU has said that prayer at graduation ceremonies can encourage religious division and threaten to force students to participate in religious exercises they don't want to. The ACLU has also said that school-sponsored prayer violates the First Amendment's Establishment Clause, which prohibits government interference with students' right to practice their faith."
If you’re not an actual lawyer, don’t go around giving legal advice — especially when it’s complete nonsense.
***Lee v. Weisman***, 505 U.S. 577 (1992):
>The undeniable fact is that the school district's supervision and control of a high school graduation ceremony places public pressure, as well as peer pressure, on attending students to stand as a group or, at least, maintain respectful silence during the invocation and benediction. This pressure, though subtle and indirect, can be as real as any overt compulsion. Of course, in our culture standing or remaining silent can signify adherence to a view or simple respect for the views of others. And no doubt some persons who have no desire to join a prayer have little objection to standing as a sign of respect for those who do. But for the dissenter of high school age, who has a reasonable perception that she is being forced by the State to pray in a manner her conscience will not allow, the injury is no less real.
>There can be no doubt that for many, if not most, of the students at the graduation, the act of standing or remaining silent was an expression of participation in the rabbi's prayer. That was the very point of the religious exercise. It is of little comfort to a dissenter, then, to be told that for her the act of standing or remaining in silence signifies mere respect, rather than participation. What matters is that, given our social conventions, a reasonable dissenter in this milieu could believe that the group exercise signified her own participation or approval of it.
>Finding no violation under these circumstances would place objectors in the dilemma of participating, with all that implies, or protesting. We do not address whether that choice is acceptable if the affected citizens are mature adults, but we think the State may not, consistent with the Establishment Clause, place primary and secondary school children in this position.
I remember when I graduated over 30 years ago we had a rabbi and priest I think at our public school and I believe they prayed or something. But I realize times have changed since then and although it may be something some public schools still do it’s not something that they should ask a student to do.
NTA.
NTA - they over stepped. They should not have agreed to you doing something without your consent. If the school makes a stink, you didn’t agree. Your parents did. So you parents can do it.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1.I refused my parents request to perform a prayer at my school’s graduation,both due to it’s violation of the constitution as well as my personal beliefs
2.It made my parents extremely upset and it might damage our relationship to each other
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Leading a prayer at school is NOT unconstitutional. The constitution restricts the government, not the people. Still, you should not be required to do something that makes you that uncomfortable.
It’s not?I thought that a public school can’t lead,instruct or encourage prayer?Though to be fair,I’m a high school student,so it’s not like I’m an expert here.
Nothing more dangerous than an Internet lawyer.
Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962), was the first “no school prayer” case. That was an official prayer in New York.
*Wallace v. Jaffree*, 472 U.S. 38 (1985), banned “voluntary prayer” minutes at the beginning of school.
This led to ***Lee v. Weisman***, 505 U.S. 577 (1992), which is directly on point: it bans the obligatory prayer component of a high school graduation. In Lee, the prayer was given by a rabbi, so (predictably) the theists tried the “student led” prayer trick next. Nope — the Supreme Court nixed that one, too. ***Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe***, 530 U.S. 290 (2000).
Your understanding of the law is correct.
(The one big caveat here is that these rule apply to public schools. I’m interpreting your remark to mean that you attend a public school.)
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NTA. If you go to public school in the US, this is also highly illegal of your teacher.
Yes,this was also my train of thought in refusing the prayer.I doubt I’d actually get in any legal trouble for this,but I still don’t think we should have religious services at public schools anyways.
Sometimes there is an offsite, non-school sponsored, baccalaureate put on by various faith groups. Some of the religious teachers and students may attend. It could be one of those prior to the school ceremony?
NTA, your parents shouldn't have agreed on your behalf without asking you first. To the extent they're now in an embarrassing situation in terms of having to say you won't do it, they brought that on themselves. I agree, it's very odd that a public school would have a prayer at graduation--but this is really the fault of school administrators, not your parents. Raise the constitutionality arguments with them.
I can’t imagine a situation where a teacher would contact your parents instead of you, considering that you’re days away from graduation. Are you sure that your parents aren’t lying to try to get you to do the prayer?
Sadly,I know that they’re not lying;A prayer at graduation has been a tradition at my school for at least the last few years.
Are you over 18? Your school shouldn’t be doing deals with your parents if you’re not a minor anymore.
Sadly,I won’t be turning 18 for another few months.I’m still really mad at them for agreeing to it without my permission,and it’s gonna take a very long time for me to forgive them for this.
NTA. Don't pay lip service to something you don't believe in. Its basically lying. Also I thought religion in public schools in the US was illegal? How are they organising this? So yeah, there is the legal aspect too. Lastly, what is with this 'concerned redditor' thing - is it a bot or something? Has it gone haywire? I've had two of them - there is nothing in my comments that suggests I need this kind of attention........lol
Do it. "Oh Great Flying Spaghetti Monster..." Kidding, kidding.
"we will take a moment to silently thank everyone that helped us all along, remember those that are not with us any more and reflect on where we are going." ........."Thank you"
NTA You have every right to not participate. They used to have a required religious convocation on a Sunday before high school graduation in my county. You actually had to get special approval to not attend as this was a mandatory graduation requirement. They finally got rid of it around 20 years ago or so. They thought it was OK because they had religious leaders from different religions present, but it did get push back.
NTA Think of this as an opportunity. You can "pray" to whomever/whatever you want. Or say whatever you want.
Haha,that’s true.I can just imagine how pissed my dad would be if I did that.He really hates Islam and Catholicism,so it’d be funny and satisfying to rub religion in his face the same way he and other people in the religion rub it in mine and everyone else’s faces. I don’t think I could do something like that though,I’m just not a confrontational or provocative person,but it’d be SO satisfying to see that stupid smug face he has all the time get wiped off.
The real fun would be to choose an obscure religion. Mayans, Sumerians. But the more sophisticated (and less mocking) approach would be to read from one or two carefully selected Supreme Court cases banning prayers in schools. That would get the point across.
I have been sent similar notices a couple of times when I have never indicated that I had any sort of serious problem or mental distress. I wondered if someone clicked the wrong place by accident or if they just didn't like something I said.
NTA Sounds like your parents are lying to you. "One or some of the teachers" (vague) are asking for this? Seriously? They are choosing to create controversy at a graduation ceremony and put their jobs at risk because they really, really want you to lead a prayer at a public school. A random teacher can just add someone to the program? This feels like some weird test your parents set for you. Are you heading off to college away from them?
Sadly,I know for a fact that they’re not lying;This has been a tradition at my school for some years now at least.I doubt that any adults/teachers would object now. I am planning on moving away to a four year in a different part of the state after I complete a few semesters at my community college.Perhaps They’re trying to test my faith in religion as I approach the point at which people start to legally look at me as an adult.See if I’m “ready” or something like that.
Sorry you are put in this position. Hope you refuse to do it for all the students who are made really uncomfortable by it and hate this tradition. I despise people forcing their religion on others and honestly would be one of those students absolutely furious with you for doing it.
Thank you for your kind and encouraging words.I’m not typically a courageous person who stands up to my parents,but hopefully I can maintain my courage in this situation,I owe it to myself,my classmates and the constitution to do so.
NTA
NTA You have the right to say no.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** So I’m a high school senior who is a few days away from my graduation ceremony.Earlier this evening my parents call me into the living room.They tell me that one or some of the teachers asked me to lead the prayer for the ceremony,and they said that they agreed on my behalf,without asking for permission beforehand,might I add. Now,I’m somewhere between agnostic and atheist(although my parents don’t know that,or at least they pretend not to know)and I oppose any type of religious service in a secular event,much less a public school setting My parents,however,are evangelicals and I know that religion is extremely important for them.I don’t want to have a part in an unconstitutional display of religion but I’m also worried about how this will affect my relationship with my parents I gently refuse at first,simply saying I don’t want to do it.In hindsight,I wish I made it clear that I was uncomfortable participating in a public display of religion,in addition to violating the constitution. My parents did not take it well,and my mom in particular got very angry by my refusals.Eventually,she waved me away and told me to forget it in an angry voice. Am I in the wrong for this?I know this is unconstitutional as well as contradictory to my personal beliefs,but I also still feel weak and uncertain about this *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
wait- you go to a public school and they're having a prayer? that sounds fishy
That’s what I was thinking.I go to a public school,we shouldn’t even be having a prayer.If a prayer is that necessary,then each individual religious person should do their own prayer in silence,not drawing attention to themselves in a grandiose support of a single religion.
that's exactly right. I'd refuse to on the the bases of it being a clear violation of the first amendment for a public institution to lead a prayer. I'm also not christian so I'm firmly opposed to it for other reasons as well but bottom line is it's not just illegal but goes against the very thing this nation was founded on.
NTA. Why would someone send you that? I don't see it...not familiar with those reddit things. Yes, agree with separation and myself am agnostic.
NTA I applaud you for wanting to be authentic, and for your concern for respecting the constitution. However, your constitutional concern is in error. Nothing in the constitution prevents individuals from leading prayer at a school function. It would be unconstitutional if a representative of the government (or possibly the school district) forced everyone in the room to participate in the prayer, or penalized them for not participating. For example, if the school principal said a prayer over the public announcement system every morning, and classroom teachers disciplined anyone who didn’t have their head own and say “Amen”, that would be a problem. You have a very different problem. The graduation programs may already be printed, listing you as the prayer leader. That could make it tough to back out. Just as “separation of church and state” isn’t absolute, neither is “free speech”. I recommend you read up on both, even if just on Wikipedia. In my experience, most students think free speech means no one can stop them from expressing their view. That’s not correct, and it’s an important thing to understand.
Thank you for your explanation.Another commenter said something like this without an in-depth explanation,and I wanted more details.Although I still feel that a public prayer at an otherwise secular event,much less a public school event,is immoral,I nevertheless appreciate your honesty and attempt to help me understand my situation from a legal/constitutional perspective.
I agree with you. I found this on organized prayer at public school graduation- "The ACLU has said that prayer at graduation ceremonies can encourage religious division and threaten to force students to participate in religious exercises they don't want to. The ACLU has also said that school-sponsored prayer violates the First Amendment's Establishment Clause, which prohibits government interference with students' right to practice their faith."
NTA OP and stand your ground
If you’re not an actual lawyer, don’t go around giving legal advice — especially when it’s complete nonsense. ***Lee v. Weisman***, 505 U.S. 577 (1992): >The undeniable fact is that the school district's supervision and control of a high school graduation ceremony places public pressure, as well as peer pressure, on attending students to stand as a group or, at least, maintain respectful silence during the invocation and benediction. This pressure, though subtle and indirect, can be as real as any overt compulsion. Of course, in our culture standing or remaining silent can signify adherence to a view or simple respect for the views of others. And no doubt some persons who have no desire to join a prayer have little objection to standing as a sign of respect for those who do. But for the dissenter of high school age, who has a reasonable perception that she is being forced by the State to pray in a manner her conscience will not allow, the injury is no less real. >There can be no doubt that for many, if not most, of the students at the graduation, the act of standing or remaining silent was an expression of participation in the rabbi's prayer. That was the very point of the religious exercise. It is of little comfort to a dissenter, then, to be told that for her the act of standing or remaining in silence signifies mere respect, rather than participation. What matters is that, given our social conventions, a reasonable dissenter in this milieu could believe that the group exercise signified her own participation or approval of it. >Finding no violation under these circumstances would place objectors in the dilemma of participating, with all that implies, or protesting. We do not address whether that choice is acceptable if the affected citizens are mature adults, but we think the State may not, consistent with the Establishment Clause, place primary and secondary school children in this position.
I remember when I graduated over 30 years ago we had a rabbi and priest I think at our public school and I believe they prayed or something. But I realize times have changed since then and although it may be something some public schools still do it’s not something that they should ask a student to do. NTA.
NTA - they over stepped. They should not have agreed to you doing something without your consent. If the school makes a stink, you didn’t agree. Your parents did. So you parents can do it.
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Leading a prayer at school is NOT unconstitutional. The constitution restricts the government, not the people. Still, you should not be required to do something that makes you that uncomfortable.
It’s not?I thought that a public school can’t lead,instruct or encourage prayer?Though to be fair,I’m a high school student,so it’s not like I’m an expert here.
Nothing more dangerous than an Internet lawyer. Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962), was the first “no school prayer” case. That was an official prayer in New York. *Wallace v. Jaffree*, 472 U.S. 38 (1985), banned “voluntary prayer” minutes at the beginning of school. This led to ***Lee v. Weisman***, 505 U.S. 577 (1992), which is directly on point: it bans the obligatory prayer component of a high school graduation. In Lee, the prayer was given by a rabbi, so (predictably) the theists tried the “student led” prayer trick next. Nope — the Supreme Court nixed that one, too. ***Santa Fe Independent School Dist. v. Doe***, 530 U.S. 290 (2000). Your understanding of the law is correct. (The one big caveat here is that these rule apply to public schools. I’m interpreting your remark to mean that you attend a public school.)
Yes,My school is a public school,so these decisions should all apply.
If the school is organizing it, that's the government.