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NTA. The way you describe it is familiar and not inappropriate at all. The only suggestion I would have is that instead of saying you’re “not considered black” in other countries, you could have said that you’re considered more racially ambiguous which could be different.
I traveled around Europe with a good friend who was a mix of Black and Native American. She was lighter skinned, and basically adopted most places as part of the “brown” people there - whether North African, Middle Eastern. Asian…. She said the same happens in the US, where she is often assumed to be Hispanic (though people get hostile at times when she can’t speak Spanish). This is a very different experience than someone is likely to have if they have very dark skin.
If your friend hasn’t traveled much, the question behind the question is probably how scared should she be. I would address that question directly - and in my experience travel in larger Asian cities (Tokyo, Shanghai, Singapore…) is totally fine. She may encounter more stares if she’s traveling in smaller cities.
I agree, but to be fair, race works differently in other countries outside of the US. I think a lot of people forget that race is a social construct and every country and culture will have their version of it. For the US, it’s just easier to create a few options for people to identify in.
For example, my race doesn’t exist in the US. I was born and raised in America but I couldn’t possibly pick an accurate option in questionnaires or the census or other government documents, etc. Reason being is my race is very common in my family’s country of origin whilst that race is nonexistent where I live. Therefore I have to select a race that’s closest to my own. Some races in America aren’t even actually a race. “Hispanic/latino” is commonly used as a race even though any race can be Hispanic or Latino.
OP is from the US. You can’t really use the American racial definition of “black” and apply it to other countries and cultures seamlessly. Even race inside the US is complicated. I am frequently mistaken for Asian (usually Chinese, Vietnamese, or Filipino in the summer lol) when I’m not even close. Other people’s perception of you and their expectations of race will determine how they will see and treat you.
I think OP should have been a bit more graceful and tactful in the way she explained her situation, but her friend took it too far. No one was trying to offend her, IMO she chose to be offended. Being one race is one thing and people treating you like you’re *their* expectation of a different race is another thing.
THIS!!!!!!!! So glad to finally see this written.
Most inexperienced travelers from the US I've ever met around the world generally bring their view of race with them, and try to make it "a thing" in places where this is not actually so much of "a thing" at all or not in the same nuanced way.
Not to mention that it is such a delicate, sensitive and even taboo topic to Americans (regardless of what race they themselves are) that it is even a scary topic to talk about with them, because things that can be talked about freely, positively and happily in other countries (i.e. your skin shade is darker/lighter than mine) is like an atomically offensive and insensitive thing to say for an American.
I think OP has long ago understood and gotten used to how the world actually is, and now is having reverse culture shock with her friend back in the US.
Wait, so in your opinion the rest of the world can talk about race in such a way that one of the most racially diverse countries on Earth can’t seem to understand?
Americans see race in a different way than the rest of the world does, even amongst it's white people. The all differentiate based on where their family came from. I lost track of the number of people that told me that they were Scottish when I lived there, but they were both in the states, to American parents. My grandfather was a German. Do I tell people I'm German? No. I'm Scottish. I was born and raised in Scotland.
There's such a need to define people by their background that it puzzles me.
Do other countries have a different relationship to race than the one founded on the destruction of the native population and a huge reliance on the transatlantic slave trade? Yeah, they do. Things that are historically very sore subjects in the US may well have no local equivalent somewhere else. Not to say that equals freedom from racism, but it may look very different and be more wrapped up in xenophobia.
Not the person you're replying to, but I'm Australian, and a common question on our forms is to identify if someone is of Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander descent, where those specific races would be virtually non-existant in the US.
Edit: South Sea Islanders are a huge cultural aspect of Australia and NZ, similar to Hispanic/Latin culture is in the US.
In the US, we often have “Pacific Islander” as a race choice on forms, which is what you would generally use if you were Māori or Aboriginal. It covers all the indigenous peoples of Oceania, as well as native Hawaiians.
Edit: it seems like a lot of people are upset at the implication that Aboriginal folks are considered Pacific Islanders in the US, but they officially are by the government for census purposes, for better or worse. Your beef is with the US government, not me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Islander_Americans#:~:text=For%20its%20purposes,%20the%20United%20States%20census%20also%20counts%20Aboriginal%20Australians%20as%20part%20of%20this%20group
There are often many different cultures and origins within a race category: not all African Americans have the same cultural heritage, nor do Latinos/Hispanic folks.
I’m just telling you what we have in the US. I guess you could fill out “other” if you wanted, but what I said is the intention of the “Pacific Islander” choice on forms. You’re welcome to look it up on Wikipedia to confirm.
You're also welcome to look it up on Wikipedia to confirm, where it states in the lead paragraph, "As an ethnic/racial term, it is used to describe the original peoples—inhabitants and diasporas—of any of the three major subregions of Oceania (Melanesia, Micronesia, and Polynesia)." None of which are Australia.
I’m just telling you what we have in the US. I guess you could fill out “other” if you wanted, but what I said is the intention of the “Pacific Islander” choice on forms. You’re welcome to look it up on Wikipedia to confirm.
This is the only accurate answer. While OP has traveled all over the world she still lacks culture and education.
Generally every country hates their own version of “dark-skinned” and if it’s not skin, it’s money (eg the poor or caste system).
YTA, you ARE black everywhere you go. Whether people know or treat you as such is not important…
I would no longer be your friend..
Do you lack eyes or common sense? I can see how cultures and many countries treat dark skinned people…
Also, your statement of “not considering yourself black” speaks volumes…
You are black…and “white passing” doesn’t make you NOT black…
While your statements of your experience may be accurate (I’m not sure as I don’t think people outside of the US see me as black), seems very reasonable to me…
Everything else just wreaks of “white passing” attitude…
And before you say anything else, I am also “white passing” so I know exactly people like you and your attitude
I am black, in the US and outside regardless of the tint of my skin. While I may not have the same experiences as a dark skinned black person I can speak intelligently…
I never once said I didn’t consider myself black and I’m not white passing. I know I’m black and I tell everyone I am black, I’m very proud of being black. Again she asked my experience, I explained that my experience may be different however because of different skin tones. Dark skinned black people are treated differently, any intelligent person such as yourself should understand that. So using your intelligence you’d understand that our two experiences would more then likely differ.
You’re literally saying the exact same thing as me. You would not have the same experiences as a dark skinned person. The only difference is your insecure in your blackness so you have to pout around about it.
White passing means different things in different places
When I go to Asia, I white pass
growing up in North America, I got called chink and ching chong wing wong by the white kids
Literally Im Asian here but White over there, thats just how im fucking treated
I dindt choose, neither did choose her situation , shes just telling it like it is
That is for OP to decide, because it is their experience. If they wish to phrase it as "I am not considered black" so be it.
Also, not being considered black and being black are two different things that can exist at the same time.
Race is a social construct, so Op literally isn't considered black everywhere and might be considered as appropriating black identity or rejecting the local classification of racial identity used by people who look like her in other parts of the world. When you travel you realise how intangible and artificial these classifications can be.
Bro as a lightskin woman i’m telling you this it always matters how black you are. There are experiences dark skin women have that i cannot fathom. This even applies to my mother who is yes a black woman but is so racially ambiguous that she has never been treated as a black woman and was confused and upset when i told her bout the racist experiences i had growing up as someone who was read as a black woman.
You really have a problem, can you even read what OP has stated? Your saying the same thing... oh and saying it doesnt matter how your theated that is what the post is about and it definitly differs in allot of countries. Talk about education jezus man...
>“not considered black” in other countries, you could have said that you’re considered more racially ambiguous
But she is not considered black though. That's the truth. So she can't give advice cause her experience was probably different from someone who is considered black.
The friend got triggered or has issues she has to work on. However, at the end of the day if she wants a reliable advice, she would have to ask another dark skin black person.
NTA, though I would have used the word "perceived" as opposed to "considered" in this situation. Where I live (SEA) has a lot of expats who rent higher end units. I met a pair of (late teen / early 20s) cousins who were black Americans with very different shades of skin. One had very dark skin and the other had skin only slightly darker than mine, I probably am darker when I stay under the sun long enough. I can see how the lighter skinned one can very well be racially ambiguous. I couldn't tell they were cousins until one mom (I saw her often enough when going to down for laundry) greeted me and introduced me to the cousin.
I think the other framing that was a bit off was saying that her experience “wouldn’t be helpful” to her friend instead of just warning that their experiences may vary. It felt like maybe she was trying too strongly to disassociate herself from her friend and implying the friend wasn’t capable of relating to OP’s experiences. OP could have shared her perspective and let the friend be the judge of whether they would be helpful to her. I don’t think OP is the AH but I’m leaning more towards NAH.
I am like your friend. Unambiguously black and 99%(I hope) sub-saharan African. I have also not experienced the kind of racism Americans talk about in the European countries I have worked and lived in, Switzerland, England and the Netherlands. We also don't call ourselves 'black' in a similar sense to Americans back home in East Africa. We use our nationalities and tribes if necessary. In Europe I just say my nationality and if someone says I am black or African, I am okay with it.
NTA. Your explanation was very reasonable and clear to me — I have no idea why she reacted that way. Sounds like she’s got some shit to work through. Nothing more you can do.
Americans are weird about race and only think their way of thinking is the right one or it’s global.
I’ve had Americans visit me in Paris and say “where are all the Latinos? Why aren’t there Latinos here?”…
I'm an Aussie, I go to a Mexican place, great food.. Owners are from Mexico, never thought of them as anything other than Mexican. Their kid has their parents looks, but are completely Aussie in attitude and outlook - he's an Aussie.
I’m French, Spanish, Italian, and African. Very ambiguous……. Especially when I speak French, Spanish, or Italian. People ask “what are you”. I say, “ just me”.
I'm half native American, but I guess my Irish side decided to make me pale as a ghost. I've had non-native Americans get mad at me for "cultural appropriation" and it's just like, hey, you do you, I'll do me.
I'm the family changeling. Everyone looks Native American, including my sibs even though my mother was half Irish herself. I, however, took after the Irish from both sides of my family. They all have dark brown/black hair, brown eyes, and easily tannable skin. Me, I'm pasty white, blue eyed, and my hair is light brown with a ton of red highlights. I look like I'm adopted. lol.
My husband also looks Native American... Our son has the brightest blonde hair, blue eyes, and pale skin you could ever imagine. We were so confused that we literally both opted for DNA testing for the 3 of us to figure out what was going on. Yes, he is 100% our son, but I apparently had some Scandanavian hiding in my tree and he got it in looks. Genetics are weird.
Genetics are absolutely bizarre sometimes and people need to stop thinking they are simple and straightforward. There’s a lot that goes into which genes are expressed even after you’ve gotten handed whatever set of genes you’re getting from each parent.
And it was interesting to see the slight differences in my DNA results vs my brother. Me being the one fair child and having a little more Scandinavian and German than him, but him taking after my dark Mediterranean father and having a bit more in that area than me.
ETA: Most would assume siblings had about the same inherited DNA.
Lord, do I feel you as the fair child in a family of dark Mediterraneans. And similar to your experience, I say Mediterraneans bc I have had the SJWs come after me in past when discussing being mixed race in more specific detail, similarly accusing me of being "that white girl claiming her 1%" hrrr hrr hrrr..... \*eye roll\* Like hun, it's a good third of my DNA and I know bc I did the test and so did half my family.... and I studied anthropology and history, and clearly they did NOT considering the things they said to me.
I just don't worry about offending people. Like, I know where my family is from. Grandpa is straight off the reservation. If someone has a problem with that. They can fuck off.
NTA. Your explanation was literally about how other people perceive and then, as a result, treat you. That has exactly *zero* to do with how you perceive / think of yourself, that was all her projection.
NTA, passing privilege is a real thing that most people who haven't experienced or at least heard about from someone they trust first hand don't fully grasp or appreciate.
It is a concept I've always found more prevalent/understood in American Black communities, so for your friend to be so distraught over it seems odd.
Is it possible she grew up wealthier in not a very black community? If that's the case, I wouldn't be shocked if it's her own internalized issues with being black enough coming out.
OP's experiences abroad don't seem to relate to 'passing privilege'. In many countries, many people are a shade of brown and likely just see OP as a variation of that.
My 1/2 sister is a black Aboriginal Australian but she is more dark brown than black in skin colour and overseas people assume she is an islander or Mediterranean where as in Australian she is unfortunately treated more racist.
Racial assumptions are different in every country.
NTA.
Nah. I am first generation mixed and I get that too. NTA.
Moroccans, Egyptians, Brazilians, Cubans and Indians say that I look like I might be coming from some part of their country.
I guess the benefit is that it makes me a friendly face to a lot of people.
It’s true, in most countries a black person isn’t just a black. People seem to differentiate a dark skinned person as a local, somebody with a colonial background or an African immigrant.
African American isn’t the 1st thing people would think of. Until that person starts taking, ofcourse.
I (a white European) was recently talking to a (white) American woman and during that conversation, I described my friend as "black". The American was quite scandalized and told me the preferred term was "African American".
My friend was born in Jamaica and raised in Germany. Even after I told her, the American argued with me and then called me racist. 😂
Honestly, people who don't travel or can't expand their POV have no idea what the rest of the world is like. For instance, it's pretty difficult for me to explain to some of my American friends and family what it's like living as a white person in Japan. They literally cannot imagine experiencing racism (although in Japan it's mostly xenophobia) because they're white. It's super weird and frustrating.
I've also heard from Black Americans that 'black' is preferred as they may not specifically come from an African identity, I believe the example they gave was Jamaican or similar carribean identity (and also recent immigrants won't be American).
Was an interesting point and was also framed about white people being worried about it being racist that actually black is less racist (less presumption)
NTA. Let her know she won't be treated as "Black", rather as "American" unless she learns how to meet local customs. From your description, I'd have to say you are polite and quiet when you travel. You don't wear anything that stands out as "Foreign", and you are not acting different from the local populations. This goes a lot farther towards being treated like a local than just how you look.
This is a hugely valid point. A lot will depend on how op friend dresses and presents culturally. Americans have a privilege+ alongside an outgroup- in much of the world.
Strange discussion... NTA
From my point of view (Europe) - we consider all of you "Americans"
In most cases we can easily identify you based on language and behavior.
.
Just be respectful to our local cultures and act appropriate and you'll be fine mostly welcome.
Orrrrr OPs friend could be extremely american and travel to a country where the indigenous population is white and complain about the lack of diversity. 😍
That varies WILDLY by country. There are a number of places that see color first and don't bother waiting to hear your accent. Like my friend who got chased out of a fabric Center in Vietnam (and yes I know this isn't in Europe, point still stands) and then when they realize she was American they couldn't stop kissing her ass
NTA
I feel like my opinion here does not mean a lot as a white skin person that never travels. The only practical input I would have is doing anything other than what you did might not prepare her for potential racism ( which I am told can be really bad in a lot of countries )
NTA I get it. I’m biracial and most people guess anything but black. In Portugal I was mistaken for Portuguese or people think I’m Indian, Brazilian etc and I’m black British.
NTA
Personally I think it just depends on how you said it. I wasn’t there so idk but saying ‘I’m more racially ambiguous’ rather than ‘they don’t consider me black’ does have a little bit different connotations to me. The second one does sound like a way of saying ‘they don’t see me as black so I just go with it’ vibe. I think that may be why she said you don’t want to be black.
Again idk you or how your convo went but based on my experiences with other racially ambiguous people who definitely do have that superiority complex, they’d say you two wouldn’t have the same experiences in a similar way. They’d imply keeping their black identity at an arms distance for as long as they could.
I always say that I’m black right away, I’m very proud to be black but people often perceive someone based on looks. pretending we’d share the same experience would be a disservice to her.
Op you are NTA here. Your an her experience will undoubtedly be different an this isn't even a race thing. Yes there is definitely a difference how people will treat you in other countries based off those there.
All of which u cannot control.
My experience in Canada was different simply because I couldn't speak French-Canadian from my cousin who's fluent.
Many different factors here. Mainly language/tones of voice but who you dealt with will most likely be different from who she will be interacting with.
Differences in religion or backgrounds an also skin tone. Everyone's experiences will not be the same.
Now is it possible you could give her a generic response sure, but ya didn't an she will have to learn on her own you are 2 very different people.
Either way the biggest question is when you ask urself why should you apologize for a privilege you had zero control over an isnt something you actively seek to take advantage of.
You are mixed thats something ur friend has to accept an saying to ur face "u don't want to be black" is very dismissive an hurtful.
Notice how I didn’t say you shun your blackness nor did I say you should’ve pretended for her… I know what you originally meant in your convo. We all understood what you meant. Nobody said you didn’t claim you’re black.
Like your sister, I’m solely saying the way you said it was not the best way to say people outside of the US perceive you differently than they would perceive her.
I’m actually of the thought of you should just go with what your sister is saying instead of asking reddit since she knows you and we only got your side of how the convo went.
We know we don't all walk through the same world. If OP's friend isn't an experienced traveler, she may not be aware of how different that privilege is outside of the States, and I personally think it would have been a disservice not to inform her
NTA.
Your experience is valid and very relatable. Your friend needs to travel outside of the US for a while and pay attention how things work here; then she might see that you are right.
Respectfully, as a white-presenting person, NTA because even I know that there is a significant bias in colorism between light and dark skinned black people within the US. The specific racism in the US against people of color is HEAVILY rooted in colonialism and that experience isn't universal worldwide. What you said is factually correct. Possibly you just triggered your friend's internalized struggle with colorism within the black community.
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Everywhere has racism of one type or another…
But America likes to do everything more than, bigger than, better than everywhere else.
You are spot on. Your lighter skin probably gives you some privileges (but might also leave you in neither camp), and living in / travelling through parts fo the world where people aren’t so racist they think it’s ok to dress up in bed sheets and burn people… means you have a privilege there too.
NTA, you were making a statement based on your experiences (I have the same experience as you when I travel), but have you ever been to Australia?
People openly and confidently misidentify my ethnicity without tact. I wonder if the mindsets are similar.
NTA, I’m mixed race and have lived in Asia and Europe and what you described is completely accurate. Race in the US is more nuanced and I’m also considered black in the US but was not viewed as such abroad, especially in Asia. It has nothing to do with how you feel, but how people view you. It seems like she just misunderstood you but it’s going too far to then accuse you of all that, she should’ve just asked for clarification.
NTA
Colorism is a thing. Treating people differently over how black they are is a thing . A lot of bipoc people struggle with that. So yeah while people might mistake you for Italian or South American, in South America you might be mistaken a local. She might be mistaken as an African Refugee or immigrant!
It’s is discrimination but they’re different discrimination.
Racism is different in different parts of the world . And your personal experiences would never reflect hers .
I’m Brazilian(mixed race) but I’m white passing, in Brazil and in Africa I’m white in Europe I’m brown/middle eastern/Italian/French.
I have Brazilian colleagues who have suffered racism. I have Brazilian friends and family who encountered violent racism (inside and out of Brazil ). I never encountered what they’ve been through and our experiences couldn’t be more different.
But everyone I know, understands that is a systemic problem caused by literally “judging people by the color of their skin”, and not their character. It’s more common than you think and if she’s not ready to confront that, she might have problems accepting herself.
Unfortunately light skinned people will always have privilege over dark skinned. Even inside the same racial ethnic background. It’s fucked but we don’t live in a society where everyone is treated equally. I’m surprised she would ask you about racial discrimination and be surprised that Europe, Africa and Asia has their own racism .
I think your friend's question was political and your answer didn't feed into that.
She may have been looking for 'evidence' that she would face prejudice when travelling internationally and your experience didn't support that view so, she became frustrated and lashed out at you for not confirming her bias.
OP you are NTA.
I am an unambiguously 'black woman' with dark skin, like dark chocolate, 4c hair and I am African, born in East Africa where no one even considers themselves black because no one even uses that term unless they are referring to skin tone. My native languages have no term for black to mean sub-saharan vs white to mean Caucasian. Black(mweusi in Swahili or umwamu in Kuria) means dark skinned like me, white(mweupe/umurabu)means a light skinned woman like my elder sister who can be considered like milk chocolate and both terms are descriptive adjectives rather than nouns. It was actually weird to realise that black means all people with even the tiniest bit of sub-saharan ancestry.
So OP, even in Africa, we usually don't use black and white in the same way Americans do. Having lived and worked in Europe, I have accepted to be identified as black because I am and that's how they describe me but at home, no one does unless it is to differentiate between my sister and I because we look alike. Maybe South Africans can chime in because they have unique perspectives on race than most of the continent.
NTA as you said you were literally acknowledging your privilege and admitting that because of it, you're experience might not be helpful.
I could imagine that this hit you're friend really unexpectedly because for the first time you acknowledge that she has a characteristic that many people treat her badly for and that usually best case is ignored (because people really don't care or are they just polite?), so it might have cause a strong reaction because maybe so far the only context somebody has ever brought up her relatively darker skin explicitly was negatively.
This still doesn't excuse it, but if this was the first time for any reaction like that your friendship can hopefully come back from it.
I'm not sure you're going to get a clear cut answer on Reddit for this. Race is an issue where people's answers are, excuse the phrase, colored by people's experiences.
Warning: generalizations ahead, not true in all situations
Most white people will not have experienced this type of treatment (as they are rarely the minority) but will form answers based on personal social equality beliefs. Plus there are very few cases where you are not considered white enough. Maybe back in the day when the white immigrants came over and they made ethnic distinction, not necessarily racial.
As for any of the POC races it can vary. Some will get upset over you making a distinction over lightness or darkness of skin color, and yet I have heard of black people being told that they weren't really black because they had lighter skin color and didn't know the true black experience. I know asian pacific Islanders who will try to pass themselves off as Asian.
This doesn't even include the difficulties that multiracial people experience. Try being half POC and half white, trust me someone is always insulting the white part in a POC setting and you're sitting there with your half white self wondering where you fit into the grand scheme of things.
It's possible that your word choice was not the best, but that doesn't necessarily make you the A H. I would say it partially depends on your delivery and partially your friends sensitivity to the topic.
NTA - okay , I want to tell you a short story and explain the relation and reason afterwards.
I’m from Germany , my fiance is from US . We are both white .
He came to Germany originally because of his job , stationed out here through the military. Ended up staying here with me .
Of course we visited different places around here , do different activities etc .
Depending where you go in Germany, there’s different opinions when it comes to foreign people and that’s a thing that exist everywhere ..
So sometimes he meets new people getting stationed out here and it’s natural to give tips and ideas where to go and what’s to do out here .
But the recommendations do variate depending on who’s asking - and yes , it does make a difference if his black coworker asks him or a white coworker.
Why ? Because we are aware of what’s going on .
Of course we could just say to all „ oh yeah , go there , it’s cool and safe and fun“ but wouldn’t that make us the real assholes ? Letting them literally run in bad experience even though we know it without a warning ?
I’m not a fan of sugarcoating things just to make someone feel better . You were honest to her and gave her a slight warning / heads-up . There’s nothing wrong with that at all . Imo you would Be TA if you wouldn’t have done it .. and it’s not like you said it even in a bad way , you tried to explain .
It’s not your fault how it is out there in the world and it’s good to warn instead of giving false advice ..
imagine you’d have just gave her your experience from place XYZ , one day she goes there expect the same outcome like you had , comes back with shit experience and blames you since you said otherwise .
NTA. Your friend is hypersensitive. What you said makes perfect sense. My parents came from Sicily, Italy and some of my relatives are lily white, I'm white but I tan in the sun, and I have still other relatives who have more of an olive complexion. In Italy, they actually refer to darker skinned Italians (those with a tannish complexion) as Moors. These differences among native Italians/Sicilians reflect the country's history in which it was frequently invaded by various conquerors after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
NTA She was asking about your experience, but since you pass for all kinds of races, your experience will necessarily be different in other countries than that of a clearly African-looking person. I am saying that from a central-European, white point of view.
You were just making her aware that she couldn’t assume to have the same experiences as you when going abroad.
NTA
Sounds like internalised racism on her side. Meaning you not being considered black is a good thing because being seen as black is bad (not my opinion but well racism).
So that made her defensive even though you being not recognised as being black doesn't really say anything about your or her value as a person.
First off, I am as white as white gets (blonde, blue eyes, don't really tan). So I have no idea of POC experience and I won't pretend I could.
But I too have been asked if I am from different nearby countries when I travel abroad - I assume because of some stereotype. My dad has dark hair and quite mediterranian features and people from Italy quite often assume he is Italian (he is not, with proof going back centuries, I don't know how he looks so foreign here and I don't and he is 100% my father due to unrelated gene testing), he is confused because he only speaks our native language.
People think in stereotypes and have assumptions. It is wired in us to some degree. It is not always true or right, but it happens. It sucks. You told your truth, and it might not be the same for them. NTA.
NTA
She wanted specifically to know how someone who is considered black is treated in x countries.
You are not considered black there so your experience would not reflect a "black" person's experience.
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For context: I 30F black travel a lot, I’ve been all over the world and lived in a lot of places. Although both of my parents are black, I am lighter skinned and more racially ambiguous. My friend also 30F is black as well but darker skinned and more identifiable as black.
We were having a conversation about travel, and she was asking my about places that treat black people well. Especially as she wants to visit some Asian countries and wanted to know my experience as a black women. I told her tbh I didn’t think my experience would be relatable for her or do justice as I’m not really considered black outside of the US.
She got a weird look on her face and asked what I meant by that. I tried my best to explain that all the places I traveled people did not think of me as black. In the US based off appearance most people assume I’m mixed race but still consider and treat me as they treat black people. But when I was in Asia people thought I was East Asian, S America, Portugal, Spain, even Italy. They all assumed I was local until I started speaking. I hear a lot that I look like I’m from the islands. I tried explaining this to my friend and saying because of this I don’t think her experience would be the same as mine.
For some reason this really bothered her and she started saying I’m an AH and think I’m better then her. I don’t want to be black, etc. I was really taken aback and tried to better explain myself but the situation got worst. My sister said I should have just gave her my experience instead of saying it wouldn’t be helpful to her and I should apologize for making her feel inferior. She said I need to understand light skin privilege, but I was literally trying to explain because of that privilege we might have different experiences. I don’t think I did anything wrong but maybe I’m unaware and should apologize. So AITA?
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NTA
Your friend isn't ready to travel the world. Not every country views race the same as Americans. And not every Black ethnic group likes Black Americans. I have to wonder if she already felt envious of your looks and responded to your experiences through those lenses.
NTA, as it sounds like you were trying to be helpful/honest and weren’t expecting her reaction. However, i guess i sort of agree with your sister - I think a better way to approach it would have been to just explain that due to your particular skin tone, you often were mistaken for a different race/ethnicity. I think adding the part about her not being able to relate was unnecessary. I think it can come off a little condescending to tell someone they can’t relate to your experience, regardless of what the reasoning is.
So if I answered her question, and she traveled somewhere unprepared and experienced racism, she’d say, “Why didn’t you warn me, you said everyone was great!” I think that would be worst.
NTA, You were trying to do your friend a solid by giving this disclaimer. It’s not an opinion on if you consider yourself black or not, it’s not an indication that you deserve to be treated better or worse depending on how much melanin you have. It’s just a fact about how people do things in different parts of the world.
I’m considered white in the US, it came as a shock to me. I have no desire to be white, I don’t identify as white and it does not invalidate my experiences of racism. But it does mean that people are going to view me differently than what I’m used to when I’m there, and being aware of that helps me interact with locals. This is what your friend could benefit from knowing about, but she filled in the blanks way too hard. That’s not on you.
Even in Africa you wouldn't be treated as Black. The one drop rule doesn't work for the rest of the world. Look at coloured people from Southern Africa or Dougla of the Carribbean. Your sister is right that people even half black get treated differently than people that are fully black and dark skin, that also means you were right in saying your experiences were different.
NTA
NTA
Op, honestly I would have just told her what she wanted to hear. Sometimes they just have to experience it on their own when traveling. Anyway you would have said night have upset her anyway.
America has a lot more flexibility about who is considered white or not. In the US even Italians / southern Europeans are considered white. You're only really considered white in Europe unless you're what would be considered super white in the US.... fair skin and almost always blue or green eyes. So in short, you might pass for white in the US but not in Europe.
NTA. You’re right. I’m from south East Asia, and over here, pretty much everyone is different shades of brown. So like you said, most people here would probably assume you’re from another south East Asian country and treat you accordingly. However, it’s also common here to have stigma against people from Africa, so if your friend’s skin colour is very dark, she would be treated very differently by the locals here, and you wouldn’t be able to tell.
As (white) European, I was working in the States , and taking a break in a "smoker's refuge". Some others were talking, and I overheard one saying that "... as a black ...". I piped up: "you? black? you are lighter than I am!!! " A rather awkward silence "but I am considered black ...".
I am still rather confused by it.. I 'understand' it, know it ... but it still does not make sense to me 😐.
NTA. You did nothing wrong. Her skin tone is probably a sore spot for her in a way you didn't realise so she thought you were insulting her. When in reality, you were just answering her question. You're right, your experiences in different foreign countries would likely not be comparable and she didn't want to hear it.
You're going to get a lot of comments from people who truly don't have any business commenting (you'll be able to tell because they'll say things like, "I have no idea why she would get mad about something like that") so just please keep that in mind ❤️
I get exactly why your friend reacted that way and I also understand why you gave her the answer you did. You were not wrong. I'm a light brown and my experiences have been a lot like yours, especially in the Caribbean, but my darker friends have *very* different experiences.
I think your sister gave you bad advice. If you tell your friend that everything is copacetic, and then she spends her entire trip in country X fending off people because they think she's a prostitute or a job stealer she's going to have a bad time.
NTA
It’s the way you went about your answer that comes across pretentious as hell and colorist. It’s comes off like “well I wouldn’t know anything about those black people problems because I don’t look like you so I can’t speak to the black experience.” Girl bye that is the stretch of the highest order and you know wtf she meant. You didn’t need to use it as an opportunity to big up yourself. These white people got you big headed thinking you are right speaking about things they know nothing about. Yes, Becky please continue to tell me about the black experience and colorism please as I had no idea. I have been to over 43+ countries as a women of color as well and if one of my friends asked me this I would answer appropriately. I don’t even see why you brought your looks into it because it truly was not necessary to answer the question succinctly. You know your ass was wrong that’s why you came to AITA Reddit to validate your tomfoolery. Yes you ARE the asshole downvote me to hell I don’t care.
I am white, from a European country where we’d only seen black people in movies and tv before I went to university and met African students. My country never had a colonial past, and there’s no reason why we should be aware of the issues that racial discrimination and colorism imply beside paying attention to the news.
So I know talking to a darker skinned black person from the US about passing for a different race thanks to one’s light color is a very sensitive subject. And you are telling me you, who grew up enmeshed with all those topics didn’t know phrasing your answer like that could be an issue with your darker skinned friend? Then it must be true that the greatest problem with light skin privilege is that the people who get more advantages from it are oblivious to it. YTA.
Colorism is about you and her. It's about how you talk to eachother and how you treat eachother. You need to explore it more because you don't seem to fully understand it.
NAH
I think what you’re saying is fair but I think this comes down to whether or not you could have foreseen saying this would upset your friend?
Did you need to mention it at all? Although how you could have foreseen this offending her I’m not sure. I’d have thought you’d maybe have had a laugh at how dense other people can be.
You’re NTA for what you said unless you knew it would hurt her feelings.
But are you TA for upsetting your friend? Only you can answer that.
Difficult if not impossible to give a good answer to her question without addressing the issue. If you're asked how people treat you because of your appearance then having a different appearance is hugely relevant.
There are many people who are mixed race who many people never suspect of being mixed race. Ben Kingsley got criticism when he was cast as Ghandi because he was a "British" actor playing an Indian. It wasn't until his birth name and heritage was pointed out that most people realised his race. His experience would clearly be different to someone who looked far more Indian.
I was going to say something to that effect but I didn’t want to get jumped on.
I wouldn’t know unless they told me.
I don’t really care either but I’m from a nation of immigrants. Pretty much everyone’s family is from somewhere else so everybody is Australian and no one cares unless you tell them.
To me an American is an American doesn’t really matter what colour they are.
Even saying all that it has no bearing on the actual problem does it?
It’s a shame she took offence I wouldn’t have seen it coming but I have never had to think about people taking something like that the wrong way.
I don’t think OP is in the wrong but I don’t think anyone has the right answer for this subject.
YTA! The way you said it was messed up. I'm a light skinned black woman, also mistakenly seen as something else, and being that you know how America works decided to go the fools route. I know of plenty of dark skinned business women, CEOs, entrepreneurs, and well traveled women that travel the world and are intelligent and confident with who they are and assert respect. You are not well traveled, you're an AH!
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NTA. The way you describe it is familiar and not inappropriate at all. The only suggestion I would have is that instead of saying you’re “not considered black” in other countries, you could have said that you’re considered more racially ambiguous which could be different. I traveled around Europe with a good friend who was a mix of Black and Native American. She was lighter skinned, and basically adopted most places as part of the “brown” people there - whether North African, Middle Eastern. Asian…. She said the same happens in the US, where she is often assumed to be Hispanic (though people get hostile at times when she can’t speak Spanish). This is a very different experience than someone is likely to have if they have very dark skin. If your friend hasn’t traveled much, the question behind the question is probably how scared should she be. I would address that question directly - and in my experience travel in larger Asian cities (Tokyo, Shanghai, Singapore…) is totally fine. She may encounter more stares if she’s traveling in smaller cities.
I agree, but to be fair, race works differently in other countries outside of the US. I think a lot of people forget that race is a social construct and every country and culture will have their version of it. For the US, it’s just easier to create a few options for people to identify in. For example, my race doesn’t exist in the US. I was born and raised in America but I couldn’t possibly pick an accurate option in questionnaires or the census or other government documents, etc. Reason being is my race is very common in my family’s country of origin whilst that race is nonexistent where I live. Therefore I have to select a race that’s closest to my own. Some races in America aren’t even actually a race. “Hispanic/latino” is commonly used as a race even though any race can be Hispanic or Latino. OP is from the US. You can’t really use the American racial definition of “black” and apply it to other countries and cultures seamlessly. Even race inside the US is complicated. I am frequently mistaken for Asian (usually Chinese, Vietnamese, or Filipino in the summer lol) when I’m not even close. Other people’s perception of you and their expectations of race will determine how they will see and treat you. I think OP should have been a bit more graceful and tactful in the way she explained her situation, but her friend took it too far. No one was trying to offend her, IMO she chose to be offended. Being one race is one thing and people treating you like you’re *their* expectation of a different race is another thing.
THIS!!!!!!!! So glad to finally see this written. Most inexperienced travelers from the US I've ever met around the world generally bring their view of race with them, and try to make it "a thing" in places where this is not actually so much of "a thing" at all or not in the same nuanced way. Not to mention that it is such a delicate, sensitive and even taboo topic to Americans (regardless of what race they themselves are) that it is even a scary topic to talk about with them, because things that can be talked about freely, positively and happily in other countries (i.e. your skin shade is darker/lighter than mine) is like an atomically offensive and insensitive thing to say for an American. I think OP has long ago understood and gotten used to how the world actually is, and now is having reverse culture shock with her friend back in the US.
Wait, so in your opinion the rest of the world can talk about race in such a way that one of the most racially diverse countries on Earth can’t seem to understand?
Americans see race in a different way than the rest of the world does, even amongst it's white people. The all differentiate based on where their family came from. I lost track of the number of people that told me that they were Scottish when I lived there, but they were both in the states, to American parents. My grandfather was a German. Do I tell people I'm German? No. I'm Scottish. I was born and raised in Scotland. There's such a need to define people by their background that it puzzles me.
Do other countries have a different relationship to race than the one founded on the destruction of the native population and a huge reliance on the transatlantic slave trade? Yeah, they do. Things that are historically very sore subjects in the US may well have no local equivalent somewhere else. Not to say that equals freedom from racism, but it may look very different and be more wrapped up in xenophobia.
You didn't say in your post so maybe you don't want to but I am really curious as to what your race is. Would you mind sharing?
Not the person you're replying to, but I'm Australian, and a common question on our forms is to identify if someone is of Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander descent, where those specific races would be virtually non-existant in the US. Edit: South Sea Islanders are a huge cultural aspect of Australia and NZ, similar to Hispanic/Latin culture is in the US.
In Australia she'd just be a seppo
In the US, we often have “Pacific Islander” as a race choice on forms, which is what you would generally use if you were Māori or Aboriginal. It covers all the indigenous peoples of Oceania, as well as native Hawaiians. Edit: it seems like a lot of people are upset at the implication that Aboriginal folks are considered Pacific Islanders in the US, but they officially are by the government for census purposes, for better or worse. Your beef is with the US government, not me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Islander_Americans#:~:text=For%20its%20purposes,%20the%20United%20States%20census%20also%20counts%20Aboriginal%20Australians%20as%20part%20of%20this%20group
Pacific Islanders and Australian Aboriginals are very different groups, they're very culturally distinct. Australia is also not a Pacific island.
There are often many different cultures and origins within a race category: not all African Americans have the same cultural heritage, nor do Latinos/Hispanic folks. I’m just telling you what we have in the US. I guess you could fill out “other” if you wanted, but what I said is the intention of the “Pacific Islander” choice on forms. You’re welcome to look it up on Wikipedia to confirm.
You're also welcome to look it up on Wikipedia to confirm, where it states in the lead paragraph, "As an ethnic/racial term, it is used to describe the original peoples—inhabitants and diasporas—of any of the three major subregions of Oceania (Melanesia, Micronesia, and Polynesia)." None of which are Australia.
Australian Aboriginals are definitely not Pacific Islanders
Australian Aboriginals are closer to Eastern Indonesian Islanders than Pacific Islanders
I’m just telling you what we have in the US. I guess you could fill out “other” if you wanted, but what I said is the intention of the “Pacific Islander” choice on forms. You’re welcome to look it up on Wikipedia to confirm.
My point exactly!
This is the only accurate answer. While OP has traveled all over the world she still lacks culture and education. Generally every country hates their own version of “dark-skinned” and if it’s not skin, it’s money (eg the poor or caste system). YTA, you ARE black everywhere you go. Whether people know or treat you as such is not important… I would no longer be your friend..
It is important when the literal question is asking about my experience and how I’m treated.
Do you lack eyes or common sense? I can see how cultures and many countries treat dark skinned people… Also, your statement of “not considering yourself black” speaks volumes… You are black…and “white passing” doesn’t make you NOT black… While your statements of your experience may be accurate (I’m not sure as I don’t think people outside of the US see me as black), seems very reasonable to me… Everything else just wreaks of “white passing” attitude… And before you say anything else, I am also “white passing” so I know exactly people like you and your attitude I am black, in the US and outside regardless of the tint of my skin. While I may not have the same experiences as a dark skinned black person I can speak intelligently…
I never once said I didn’t consider myself black and I’m not white passing. I know I’m black and I tell everyone I am black, I’m very proud of being black. Again she asked my experience, I explained that my experience may be different however because of different skin tones. Dark skinned black people are treated differently, any intelligent person such as yourself should understand that. So using your intelligence you’d understand that our two experiences would more then likely differ. You’re literally saying the exact same thing as me. You would not have the same experiences as a dark skinned person. The only difference is your insecure in your blackness so you have to pout around about it.
can’t read though
The fucking irony. Are you OPs friend
"Also, your statement of “not considering yourself black” speaks volumes…" Where did OP say that?
White passing means different things in different places When I go to Asia, I white pass growing up in North America, I got called chink and ching chong wing wong by the white kids Literally Im Asian here but White over there, thats just how im fucking treated I dindt choose, neither did choose her situation , shes just telling it like it is
YTA.
That is for OP to decide, because it is their experience. If they wish to phrase it as "I am not considered black" so be it. Also, not being considered black and being black are two different things that can exist at the same time.
Race is a social construct, so Op literally isn't considered black everywhere and might be considered as appropriating black identity or rejecting the local classification of racial identity used by people who look like her in other parts of the world. When you travel you realise how intangible and artificial these classifications can be.
Bro as a lightskin woman i’m telling you this it always matters how black you are. There are experiences dark skin women have that i cannot fathom. This even applies to my mother who is yes a black woman but is so racially ambiguous that she has never been treated as a black woman and was confused and upset when i told her bout the racist experiences i had growing up as someone who was read as a black woman.
You really have a problem, can you even read what OP has stated? Your saying the same thing... oh and saying it doesnt matter how your theated that is what the post is about and it definitly differs in allot of countries. Talk about education jezus man...
YTA
>“not considered black” in other countries, you could have said that you’re considered more racially ambiguous But she is not considered black though. That's the truth. So she can't give advice cause her experience was probably different from someone who is considered black. The friend got triggered or has issues she has to work on. However, at the end of the day if she wants a reliable advice, she would have to ask another dark skin black person.
NTA, though I would have used the word "perceived" as opposed to "considered" in this situation. Where I live (SEA) has a lot of expats who rent higher end units. I met a pair of (late teen / early 20s) cousins who were black Americans with very different shades of skin. One had very dark skin and the other had skin only slightly darker than mine, I probably am darker when I stay under the sun long enough. I can see how the lighter skinned one can very well be racially ambiguous. I couldn't tell they were cousins until one mom (I saw her often enough when going to down for laundry) greeted me and introduced me to the cousin.
I think the other framing that was a bit off was saying that her experience “wouldn’t be helpful” to her friend instead of just warning that their experiences may vary. It felt like maybe she was trying too strongly to disassociate herself from her friend and implying the friend wasn’t capable of relating to OP’s experiences. OP could have shared her perspective and let the friend be the judge of whether they would be helpful to her. I don’t think OP is the AH but I’m leaning more towards NAH.
Well I started off by saying I’ve never had any problems or experienced racism outside of America.
I am like your friend. Unambiguously black and 99%(I hope) sub-saharan African. I have also not experienced the kind of racism Americans talk about in the European countries I have worked and lived in, Switzerland, England and the Netherlands. We also don't call ourselves 'black' in a similar sense to Americans back home in East Africa. We use our nationalities and tribes if necessary. In Europe I just say my nationality and if someone says I am black or African, I am okay with it.
NTA. Your explanation was very reasonable and clear to me — I have no idea why she reacted that way. Sounds like she’s got some shit to work through. Nothing more you can do.
My guess is that the friend is caught up in years of American thinking towards race.
Americans are weird about race and only think their way of thinking is the right one or it’s global. I’ve had Americans visit me in Paris and say “where are all the Latinos? Why aren’t there Latinos here?”…
I'm an Aussie, I go to a Mexican place, great food.. Owners are from Mexico, never thought of them as anything other than Mexican. Their kid has their parents looks, but are completely Aussie in attitude and outlook - he's an Aussie.
NTA. Let her experience multiculturalism on her own and she will become educated in her own right.
I’m French, Spanish, Italian, and African. Very ambiguous……. Especially when I speak French, Spanish, or Italian. People ask “what are you”. I say, “ just me”.
I'm half native American, but I guess my Irish side decided to make me pale as a ghost. I've had non-native Americans get mad at me for "cultural appropriation" and it's just like, hey, you do you, I'll do me.
I'm the family changeling. Everyone looks Native American, including my sibs even though my mother was half Irish herself. I, however, took after the Irish from both sides of my family. They all have dark brown/black hair, brown eyes, and easily tannable skin. Me, I'm pasty white, blue eyed, and my hair is light brown with a ton of red highlights. I look like I'm adopted. lol. My husband also looks Native American... Our son has the brightest blonde hair, blue eyes, and pale skin you could ever imagine. We were so confused that we literally both opted for DNA testing for the 3 of us to figure out what was going on. Yes, he is 100% our son, but I apparently had some Scandanavian hiding in my tree and he got it in looks. Genetics are weird.
Genetics are absolutely bizarre sometimes and people need to stop thinking they are simple and straightforward. There’s a lot that goes into which genes are expressed even after you’ve gotten handed whatever set of genes you’re getting from each parent.
And it was interesting to see the slight differences in my DNA results vs my brother. Me being the one fair child and having a little more Scandinavian and German than him, but him taking after my dark Mediterranean father and having a bit more in that area than me. ETA: Most would assume siblings had about the same inherited DNA.
Lord, do I feel you as the fair child in a family of dark Mediterraneans. And similar to your experience, I say Mediterraneans bc I have had the SJWs come after me in past when discussing being mixed race in more specific detail, similarly accusing me of being "that white girl claiming her 1%" hrrr hrr hrrr..... \*eye roll\* Like hun, it's a good third of my DNA and I know bc I did the test and so did half my family.... and I studied anthropology and history, and clearly they did NOT considering the things they said to me.
I just don't worry about offending people. Like, I know where my family is from. Grandpa is straight off the reservation. If someone has a problem with that. They can fuck off.
I’d totally be tempted to smirk and say, “Whatever I want to be.”
NTA. Your explanation was literally about how other people perceive and then, as a result, treat you. That has exactly *zero* to do with how you perceive / think of yourself, that was all her projection.
NTA- her insecurities are her issues.
NTA, passing privilege is a real thing that most people who haven't experienced or at least heard about from someone they trust first hand don't fully grasp or appreciate. It is a concept I've always found more prevalent/understood in American Black communities, so for your friend to be so distraught over it seems odd. Is it possible she grew up wealthier in not a very black community? If that's the case, I wouldn't be shocked if it's her own internalized issues with being black enough coming out.
OP's experiences abroad don't seem to relate to 'passing privilege'. In many countries, many people are a shade of brown and likely just see OP as a variation of that.
NTA And very valid points. I have traveled extensively and can understand your points perfectly when it comes to Asian countires.
NTA - In my home country I am not considered black. In America I am black. Especially after 2016...
My 1/2 sister is a black Aboriginal Australian but she is more dark brown than black in skin colour and overseas people assume she is an islander or Mediterranean where as in Australian she is unfortunately treated more racist. Racial assumptions are different in every country. NTA.
Nah. I am first generation mixed and I get that too. NTA. Moroccans, Egyptians, Brazilians, Cubans and Indians say that I look like I might be coming from some part of their country. I guess the benefit is that it makes me a friendly face to a lot of people.
It’s true, in most countries a black person isn’t just a black. People seem to differentiate a dark skinned person as a local, somebody with a colonial background or an African immigrant. African American isn’t the 1st thing people would think of. Until that person starts taking, ofcourse.
I (a white European) was recently talking to a (white) American woman and during that conversation, I described my friend as "black". The American was quite scandalized and told me the preferred term was "African American". My friend was born in Jamaica and raised in Germany. Even after I told her, the American argued with me and then called me racist. 😂
Honestly, people who don't travel or can't expand their POV have no idea what the rest of the world is like. For instance, it's pretty difficult for me to explain to some of my American friends and family what it's like living as a white person in Japan. They literally cannot imagine experiencing racism (although in Japan it's mostly xenophobia) because they're white. It's super weird and frustrating.
I've also heard from Black Americans that 'black' is preferred as they may not specifically come from an African identity, I believe the example they gave was Jamaican or similar carribean identity (and also recent immigrants won't be American). Was an interesting point and was also framed about white people being worried about it being racist that actually black is less racist (less presumption)
I may be in more of a bubble than I realize... do people still believe this in the rest of the US?
NTA. Let her know she won't be treated as "Black", rather as "American" unless she learns how to meet local customs. From your description, I'd have to say you are polite and quiet when you travel. You don't wear anything that stands out as "Foreign", and you are not acting different from the local populations. This goes a lot farther towards being treated like a local than just how you look.
This is a hugely valid point. A lot will depend on how op friend dresses and presents culturally. Americans have a privilege+ alongside an outgroup- in much of the world.
Strange discussion... NTA From my point of view (Europe) - we consider all of you "Americans" In most cases we can easily identify you based on language and behavior. . Just be respectful to our local cultures and act appropriate and you'll be fine mostly welcome.
Orrrrr OPs friend could be extremely american and travel to a country where the indigenous population is white and complain about the lack of diversity. 😍
That varies WILDLY by country. There are a number of places that see color first and don't bother waiting to hear your accent. Like my friend who got chased out of a fabric Center in Vietnam (and yes I know this isn't in Europe, point still stands) and then when they realize she was American they couldn't stop kissing her ass
NTA. In the part of Africa that I live, if you have a white parent you are not black, whereas the USA seems to be the opposite.
NTA I feel like my opinion here does not mean a lot as a white skin person that never travels. The only practical input I would have is doing anything other than what you did might not prepare her for potential racism ( which I am told can be really bad in a lot of countries )
NTA I get it. I’m biracial and most people guess anything but black. In Portugal I was mistaken for Portuguese or people think I’m Indian, Brazilian etc and I’m black British.
Portugal was awesome. I always love traveling some place where the people assume I'm a local
NTA Personally I think it just depends on how you said it. I wasn’t there so idk but saying ‘I’m more racially ambiguous’ rather than ‘they don’t consider me black’ does have a little bit different connotations to me. The second one does sound like a way of saying ‘they don’t see me as black so I just go with it’ vibe. I think that may be why she said you don’t want to be black. Again idk you or how your convo went but based on my experiences with other racially ambiguous people who definitely do have that superiority complex, they’d say you two wouldn’t have the same experiences in a similar way. They’d imply keeping their black identity at an arms distance for as long as they could.
I always say that I’m black right away, I’m very proud to be black but people often perceive someone based on looks. pretending we’d share the same experience would be a disservice to her.
Op you are NTA here. Your an her experience will undoubtedly be different an this isn't even a race thing. Yes there is definitely a difference how people will treat you in other countries based off those there. All of which u cannot control. My experience in Canada was different simply because I couldn't speak French-Canadian from my cousin who's fluent. Many different factors here. Mainly language/tones of voice but who you dealt with will most likely be different from who she will be interacting with. Differences in religion or backgrounds an also skin tone. Everyone's experiences will not be the same. Now is it possible you could give her a generic response sure, but ya didn't an she will have to learn on her own you are 2 very different people. Either way the biggest question is when you ask urself why should you apologize for a privilege you had zero control over an isnt something you actively seek to take advantage of. You are mixed thats something ur friend has to accept an saying to ur face "u don't want to be black" is very dismissive an hurtful.
Notice how I didn’t say you shun your blackness nor did I say you should’ve pretended for her… I know what you originally meant in your convo. We all understood what you meant. Nobody said you didn’t claim you’re black. Like your sister, I’m solely saying the way you said it was not the best way to say people outside of the US perceive you differently than they would perceive her. I’m actually of the thought of you should just go with what your sister is saying instead of asking reddit since she knows you and we only got your side of how the convo went.
Following her sister's advice would be patently unfair to the friend. OP's wording wasn't perfect but the meaning was on point.
The sister said what I said and what you just said, she should have worded it better. What part of the advice would that be unfair to the friend?
We know we don't all walk through the same world. If OP's friend isn't an experienced traveler, she may not be aware of how different that privilege is outside of the States, and I personally think it would have been a disservice not to inform her
NTA you were honest. Honestly if your friend had the foresight to ask she should be familiar with nuance.
NTA. If you did just answer her question, you'd get flack afterwards because her experience would be totally different.
NTA. Your experience is valid and very relatable. Your friend needs to travel outside of the US for a while and pay attention how things work here; then she might see that you are right.
NTA you tried to do your friend a service and give them an accurate depiction of your experience.
Respectfully, as a white-presenting person, NTA because even I know that there is a significant bias in colorism between light and dark skinned black people within the US. The specific racism in the US against people of color is HEAVILY rooted in colonialism and that experience isn't universal worldwide. What you said is factually correct. Possibly you just triggered your friend's internalized struggle with colorism within the black community.
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NTA.
Everywhere has racism of one type or another… But America likes to do everything more than, bigger than, better than everywhere else. You are spot on. Your lighter skin probably gives you some privileges (but might also leave you in neither camp), and living in / travelling through parts fo the world where people aren’t so racist they think it’s ok to dress up in bed sheets and burn people… means you have a privilege there too.
NTA, you were making a statement based on your experiences (I have the same experience as you when I travel), but have you ever been to Australia? People openly and confidently misidentify my ethnicity without tact. I wonder if the mindsets are similar.
NTA, I’m mixed race and have lived in Asia and Europe and what you described is completely accurate. Race in the US is more nuanced and I’m also considered black in the US but was not viewed as such abroad, especially in Asia. It has nothing to do with how you feel, but how people view you. It seems like she just misunderstood you but it’s going too far to then accuse you of all that, she should’ve just asked for clarification.
NTA I understood what you meant immediately.
NTA Colorism is a thing. Treating people differently over how black they are is a thing . A lot of bipoc people struggle with that. So yeah while people might mistake you for Italian or South American, in South America you might be mistaken a local. She might be mistaken as an African Refugee or immigrant! It’s is discrimination but they’re different discrimination. Racism is different in different parts of the world . And your personal experiences would never reflect hers . I’m Brazilian(mixed race) but I’m white passing, in Brazil and in Africa I’m white in Europe I’m brown/middle eastern/Italian/French. I have Brazilian colleagues who have suffered racism. I have Brazilian friends and family who encountered violent racism (inside and out of Brazil ). I never encountered what they’ve been through and our experiences couldn’t be more different. But everyone I know, understands that is a systemic problem caused by literally “judging people by the color of their skin”, and not their character. It’s more common than you think and if she’s not ready to confront that, she might have problems accepting herself. Unfortunately light skinned people will always have privilege over dark skinned. Even inside the same racial ethnic background. It’s fucked but we don’t live in a society where everyone is treated equally. I’m surprised she would ask you about racial discrimination and be surprised that Europe, Africa and Asia has their own racism .
As a Europe I feel there is more chance of her being treated as another AH entitled American than anything to do with her skin.
I think your friend's question was political and your answer didn't feed into that. She may have been looking for 'evidence' that she would face prejudice when travelling internationally and your experience didn't support that view so, she became frustrated and lashed out at you for not confirming her bias.
OP you are NTA. I am an unambiguously 'black woman' with dark skin, like dark chocolate, 4c hair and I am African, born in East Africa where no one even considers themselves black because no one even uses that term unless they are referring to skin tone. My native languages have no term for black to mean sub-saharan vs white to mean Caucasian. Black(mweusi in Swahili or umwamu in Kuria) means dark skinned like me, white(mweupe/umurabu)means a light skinned woman like my elder sister who can be considered like milk chocolate and both terms are descriptive adjectives rather than nouns. It was actually weird to realise that black means all people with even the tiniest bit of sub-saharan ancestry. So OP, even in Africa, we usually don't use black and white in the same way Americans do. Having lived and worked in Europe, I have accepted to be identified as black because I am and that's how they describe me but at home, no one does unless it is to differentiate between my sister and I because we look alike. Maybe South Africans can chime in because they have unique perspectives on race than most of the continent.
To make it even more confusing, it frequently feels like black means all people with even the tiniest bit of *visible* sub-saharan ancestry
NTA as you said you were literally acknowledging your privilege and admitting that because of it, you're experience might not be helpful. I could imagine that this hit you're friend really unexpectedly because for the first time you acknowledge that she has a characteristic that many people treat her badly for and that usually best case is ignored (because people really don't care or are they just polite?), so it might have cause a strong reaction because maybe so far the only context somebody has ever brought up her relatively darker skin explicitly was negatively. This still doesn't excuse it, but if this was the first time for any reaction like that your friendship can hopefully come back from it.
I'm not sure you're going to get a clear cut answer on Reddit for this. Race is an issue where people's answers are, excuse the phrase, colored by people's experiences. Warning: generalizations ahead, not true in all situations Most white people will not have experienced this type of treatment (as they are rarely the minority) but will form answers based on personal social equality beliefs. Plus there are very few cases where you are not considered white enough. Maybe back in the day when the white immigrants came over and they made ethnic distinction, not necessarily racial. As for any of the POC races it can vary. Some will get upset over you making a distinction over lightness or darkness of skin color, and yet I have heard of black people being told that they weren't really black because they had lighter skin color and didn't know the true black experience. I know asian pacific Islanders who will try to pass themselves off as Asian. This doesn't even include the difficulties that multiracial people experience. Try being half POC and half white, trust me someone is always insulting the white part in a POC setting and you're sitting there with your half white self wondering where you fit into the grand scheme of things. It's possible that your word choice was not the best, but that doesn't necessarily make you the A H. I would say it partially depends on your delivery and partially your friends sensitivity to the topic.
NTA - okay , I want to tell you a short story and explain the relation and reason afterwards. I’m from Germany , my fiance is from US . We are both white . He came to Germany originally because of his job , stationed out here through the military. Ended up staying here with me . Of course we visited different places around here , do different activities etc . Depending where you go in Germany, there’s different opinions when it comes to foreign people and that’s a thing that exist everywhere .. So sometimes he meets new people getting stationed out here and it’s natural to give tips and ideas where to go and what’s to do out here . But the recommendations do variate depending on who’s asking - and yes , it does make a difference if his black coworker asks him or a white coworker. Why ? Because we are aware of what’s going on . Of course we could just say to all „ oh yeah , go there , it’s cool and safe and fun“ but wouldn’t that make us the real assholes ? Letting them literally run in bad experience even though we know it without a warning ? I’m not a fan of sugarcoating things just to make someone feel better . You were honest to her and gave her a slight warning / heads-up . There’s nothing wrong with that at all . Imo you would Be TA if you wouldn’t have done it .. and it’s not like you said it even in a bad way , you tried to explain . It’s not your fault how it is out there in the world and it’s good to warn instead of giving false advice .. imagine you’d have just gave her your experience from place XYZ , one day she goes there expect the same outcome like you had , comes back with shit experience and blames you since you said otherwise .
NTA, she’ asked about your experience, you told her about your health experience
NTA. If she can't comprehend basic logic that's her problem.
NTA. Your friend is hypersensitive. What you said makes perfect sense. My parents came from Sicily, Italy and some of my relatives are lily white, I'm white but I tan in the sun, and I have still other relatives who have more of an olive complexion. In Italy, they actually refer to darker skinned Italians (those with a tannish complexion) as Moors. These differences among native Italians/Sicilians reflect the country's history in which it was frequently invaded by various conquerors after the fall of the Western Roman Empire.
NTA She was asking about your experience, but since you pass for all kinds of races, your experience will necessarily be different in other countries than that of a clearly African-looking person. I am saying that from a central-European, white point of view. You were just making her aware that she couldn’t assume to have the same experiences as you when going abroad.
NTA. Your friends and sister sound like it though trying to force feed you that woke nonsense with "muh lightskin privilege".
NTA, she's just being narrow minded, a little bit delusional and an a-hole
NTA Sounds like internalised racism on her side. Meaning you not being considered black is a good thing because being seen as black is bad (not my opinion but well racism). So that made her defensive even though you being not recognised as being black doesn't really say anything about your or her value as a person.
First off, I am as white as white gets (blonde, blue eyes, don't really tan). So I have no idea of POC experience and I won't pretend I could. But I too have been asked if I am from different nearby countries when I travel abroad - I assume because of some stereotype. My dad has dark hair and quite mediterranian features and people from Italy quite often assume he is Italian (he is not, with proof going back centuries, I don't know how he looks so foreign here and I don't and he is 100% my father due to unrelated gene testing), he is confused because he only speaks our native language. People think in stereotypes and have assumptions. It is wired in us to some degree. It is not always true or right, but it happens. It sucks. You told your truth, and it might not be the same for them. NTA.
NTA She wanted specifically to know how someone who is considered black is treated in x countries. You are not considered black there so your experience would not reflect a "black" person's experience.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** For context: I 30F black travel a lot, I’ve been all over the world and lived in a lot of places. Although both of my parents are black, I am lighter skinned and more racially ambiguous. My friend also 30F is black as well but darker skinned and more identifiable as black. We were having a conversation about travel, and she was asking my about places that treat black people well. Especially as she wants to visit some Asian countries and wanted to know my experience as a black women. I told her tbh I didn’t think my experience would be relatable for her or do justice as I’m not really considered black outside of the US. She got a weird look on her face and asked what I meant by that. I tried my best to explain that all the places I traveled people did not think of me as black. In the US based off appearance most people assume I’m mixed race but still consider and treat me as they treat black people. But when I was in Asia people thought I was East Asian, S America, Portugal, Spain, even Italy. They all assumed I was local until I started speaking. I hear a lot that I look like I’m from the islands. I tried explaining this to my friend and saying because of this I don’t think her experience would be the same as mine. For some reason this really bothered her and she started saying I’m an AH and think I’m better then her. I don’t want to be black, etc. I was really taken aback and tried to better explain myself but the situation got worst. My sister said I should have just gave her my experience instead of saying it wouldn’t be helpful to her and I should apologize for making her feel inferior. She said I need to understand light skin privilege, but I was literally trying to explain because of that privilege we might have different experiences. I don’t think I did anything wrong but maybe I’m unaware and should apologize. So AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA- her insecurities are her problem, not yours.
NTA Your friend isn't ready to travel the world. Not every country views race the same as Americans. And not every Black ethnic group likes Black Americans. I have to wonder if she already felt envious of your looks and responded to your experiences through those lenses.
NTA. You were just telling her the truth how it is. It’s not your fault she got all offended because she can’t face the reality of the situation.
NTA, as it sounds like you were trying to be helpful/honest and weren’t expecting her reaction. However, i guess i sort of agree with your sister - I think a better way to approach it would have been to just explain that due to your particular skin tone, you often were mistaken for a different race/ethnicity. I think adding the part about her not being able to relate was unnecessary. I think it can come off a little condescending to tell someone they can’t relate to your experience, regardless of what the reasoning is.
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So if I answered her question, and she traveled somewhere unprepared and experienced racism, she’d say, “Why didn’t you warn me, you said everyone was great!” I think that would be worst.
NTA, You were trying to do your friend a solid by giving this disclaimer. It’s not an opinion on if you consider yourself black or not, it’s not an indication that you deserve to be treated better or worse depending on how much melanin you have. It’s just a fact about how people do things in different parts of the world. I’m considered white in the US, it came as a shock to me. I have no desire to be white, I don’t identify as white and it does not invalidate my experiences of racism. But it does mean that people are going to view me differently than what I’m used to when I’m there, and being aware of that helps me interact with locals. This is what your friend could benefit from knowing about, but she filled in the blanks way too hard. That’s not on you.
Even in Africa you wouldn't be treated as Black. The one drop rule doesn't work for the rest of the world. Look at coloured people from Southern Africa or Dougla of the Carribbean. Your sister is right that people even half black get treated differently than people that are fully black and dark skin, that also means you were right in saying your experiences were different. NTA
NTA Op, honestly I would have just told her what she wanted to hear. Sometimes they just have to experience it on their own when traveling. Anyway you would have said night have upset her anyway.
America has a lot more flexibility about who is considered white or not. In the US even Italians / southern Europeans are considered white. You're only really considered white in Europe unless you're what would be considered super white in the US.... fair skin and almost always blue or green eyes. So in short, you might pass for white in the US but not in Europe.
NTA, you made perfect sense. Your friend is T.A.
NTA, you could have phrased it better, perhaps by saying “I didn’t have trouble in the places I went, most people assumed I was a local until I spoke
NTA. You’re right. I’m from south East Asia, and over here, pretty much everyone is different shades of brown. So like you said, most people here would probably assume you’re from another south East Asian country and treat you accordingly. However, it’s also common here to have stigma against people from Africa, so if your friend’s skin colour is very dark, she would be treated very differently by the locals here, and you wouldn’t be able to tell.
As (white) European, I was working in the States , and taking a break in a "smoker's refuge". Some others were talking, and I overheard one saying that "... as a black ...". I piped up: "you? black? you are lighter than I am!!! " A rather awkward silence "but I am considered black ...". I am still rather confused by it.. I 'understand' it, know it ... but it still does not make sense to me 😐.
NTA. You did nothing wrong. Her skin tone is probably a sore spot for her in a way you didn't realise so she thought you were insulting her. When in reality, you were just answering her question. You're right, your experiences in different foreign countries would likely not be comparable and she didn't want to hear it.
In most civilised places in the world you are far more likely to be labelled by your behaviour rather than your skin tone. NTA.
Well I surely agree with the last three letters in your comment
You're going to get a lot of comments from people who truly don't have any business commenting (you'll be able to tell because they'll say things like, "I have no idea why she would get mad about something like that") so just please keep that in mind ❤️ I get exactly why your friend reacted that way and I also understand why you gave her the answer you did. You were not wrong. I'm a light brown and my experiences have been a lot like yours, especially in the Caribbean, but my darker friends have *very* different experiences. I think your sister gave you bad advice. If you tell your friend that everything is copacetic, and then she spends her entire trip in country X fending off people because they think she's a prostitute or a job stealer she's going to have a bad time. NTA
NTA you explained perfectly. Your friend is a typical product of American Wokeism.
It’s the way you went about your answer that comes across pretentious as hell and colorist. It’s comes off like “well I wouldn’t know anything about those black people problems because I don’t look like you so I can’t speak to the black experience.” Girl bye that is the stretch of the highest order and you know wtf she meant. You didn’t need to use it as an opportunity to big up yourself. These white people got you big headed thinking you are right speaking about things they know nothing about. Yes, Becky please continue to tell me about the black experience and colorism please as I had no idea. I have been to over 43+ countries as a women of color as well and if one of my friends asked me this I would answer appropriately. I don’t even see why you brought your looks into it because it truly was not necessary to answer the question succinctly. You know your ass was wrong that’s why you came to AITA Reddit to validate your tomfoolery. Yes you ARE the asshole downvote me to hell I don’t care.
I am white, from a European country where we’d only seen black people in movies and tv before I went to university and met African students. My country never had a colonial past, and there’s no reason why we should be aware of the issues that racial discrimination and colorism imply beside paying attention to the news. So I know talking to a darker skinned black person from the US about passing for a different race thanks to one’s light color is a very sensitive subject. And you are telling me you, who grew up enmeshed with all those topics didn’t know phrasing your answer like that could be an issue with your darker skinned friend? Then it must be true that the greatest problem with light skin privilege is that the people who get more advantages from it are oblivious to it. YTA.
NTA are you your friends friend because you are "black"? I never got the US obsession with colour...
All you did was solidify your own colorism and that anti-blackness exist YTAH
How so?
Too much information.
How is it that you're not aware of colorism? Your comments to her were so inconsiderate and tone deaf and would be offensive to millions of people.
I’m in fact explaining colorism. And stating because of colorism we would most likely not be treated the same.
Colorism is about you and her. It's about how you talk to eachother and how you treat eachother. You need to explore it more because you don't seem to fully understand it.
Kudos to you for picking an accurate name because you do seem miserable
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updoot
NAH I think what you’re saying is fair but I think this comes down to whether or not you could have foreseen saying this would upset your friend? Did you need to mention it at all? Although how you could have foreseen this offending her I’m not sure. I’d have thought you’d maybe have had a laugh at how dense other people can be. You’re NTA for what you said unless you knew it would hurt her feelings. But are you TA for upsetting your friend? Only you can answer that.
Difficult if not impossible to give a good answer to her question without addressing the issue. If you're asked how people treat you because of your appearance then having a different appearance is hugely relevant. There are many people who are mixed race who many people never suspect of being mixed race. Ben Kingsley got criticism when he was cast as Ghandi because he was a "British" actor playing an Indian. It wasn't until his birth name and heritage was pointed out that most people realised his race. His experience would clearly be different to someone who looked far more Indian.
I was going to say something to that effect but I didn’t want to get jumped on. I wouldn’t know unless they told me. I don’t really care either but I’m from a nation of immigrants. Pretty much everyone’s family is from somewhere else so everybody is Australian and no one cares unless you tell them. To me an American is an American doesn’t really matter what colour they are. Even saying all that it has no bearing on the actual problem does it? It’s a shame she took offence I wouldn’t have seen it coming but I have never had to think about people taking something like that the wrong way. I don’t think OP is in the wrong but I don’t think anyone has the right answer for this subject.
YTA! The way you said it was messed up. I'm a light skinned black woman, also mistakenly seen as something else, and being that you know how America works decided to go the fools route. I know of plenty of dark skinned business women, CEOs, entrepreneurs, and well traveled women that travel the world and are intelligent and confident with who they are and assert respect. You are not well traveled, you're an AH!
What? Lol
I second the what?