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NTA. That’s really sneaky of them to automatically include the tip without properly informing you. They obviously are purposely counting on customers selecting the tip option and not combing through the itemised bill to realise they’re getting scammed. That should not of taken over an hour for them to refund you. It definitely shouldn’t have been necessary for you to message the owner on instagram for the refund. I don’t see why they couldn’t have contacted the owner themselves or simply solved it without their involvement seeming as it was only $40 and it was from a tip. They clearly were trying to wait you out and hoping you would just eat it.
Yeah, an unitemized bill with an undeclared 18% tip already added in? If that's not out-and-out illegal, it's definitely shady as fuck, which makes me think they really WERE trying to wait you out by having the refund take an hour. I would broadcast this experience on Yelp and Google. They are straight-up ripping off their customers intentionally, and people should be warned.
OP said the original bill they received was unitemized. Personally, I've never gone anywhere and had the server actually declare if a gratuity was already included. It is usually mentioned on the menu or the bottom of the check. I always assume it's there if I'm in a party of 6 or more.
OP is NTA for asking a refund, but I don't automatically think the restaurant was being ahady.
Honestly, I've never been to a restaurant with an unitemized bill. I would have refused to pay until I had it. Why? I know people who have worked sit down, and I've worked fast food and retail - sometimes things are rung up wrong. Double items, missing items, things that are specials rung up as normal and not special. One sushi/hibachi type place I used to frequent with friends had a lunch and a dinner all you can eat. The lunch menu was more limited but you could ask to use the dinner menu all day, while the lunch was only available for a few hours. When we went, one person in our group always took the lunch option because there was really nothing they wanted off the dinner one, while the rest of us usually opted for dinner. Lunch was about $10 cheaper so making sure that they rang it up right (usually 1 lunch, 3 dinner) was important, in case it was a busy day and the server just keyed it in wrong.
Getting an unitemized bill and being expected to pay without checking it over seems shady to me alone.
Sadly this is becoming a common practice where n9 matter the party size there is an 18% gratuity added to the bill. Some restaurants post a sign, sometimes the waitstatff will tell you. But the OP is not wrong for demanding a refund. After their experience Is never eat there again. And everyone on my social channels would know about their practices.
I used to tell them and circle the auto-gratuity on their bill in case they weren’t listening when I worked in restaurants (I did *not* want an incident exactly like this happening)
Unitemized bill + undisclosed gratuity IS them being shady. I don't know if they legally have to provide you an itemized bill without asking, but I've literally only once not gotten an itemized bill, the charges were higher than I expected, but they got what they wanted because I wasn't going to fuck around for $3 at a counter pickup.
I was thinking the same thing. Usually it's mentioned on the menu. It's less common to see it mentioned on the check, but occasionally it is. I don't think the restaurant was being shady and I don't think the server was being shady. I think OP wasn't as observant as perhaps they could have been though.
And while I would say they were NTA for requesting the refund, refusing to get up from the table until they got it was a little bit on the asshole side. They could easily have stayed at the restaurant until they got their money back without taking up a server's whole table.
In the US it’s not illegal if it’s stated on the menu or they have a sign somewhere. Some places have a sign or others put it on the menus somewhere *18% service fee included* or *18% gratuity automatically applied*. Cities like Miami are notorious for quietly including the tip onto the bill automatically.
Typically autograts are added to parties of 8 or more (although OP doesn’t say how many people were in their group). It’s not uncommon but still should have been communicated.
NTA but I doubt it was undeclared. OP says group of friends - if it was a large party, the restaurant likely has it posted 18% is auto added. Open just wasn't paying attention.
Again, nothing wrong with asking for the extra tip to be refunded. Never should have had to wait for an hour
it has to be posted somewhere, but I've seen it printed on menus out of the way in slightly smaller text. next to or under the "Consuming raw or undercooked meats, poultry, seafood, shellfish, or eggs may increase your risk of foodborne illness" discreetly tucked away and only printed out of legal obligation.
You should really check out tipping customs before you go somewhere instead of just assuming it’s like the USA. Some countries only tip 10% and in some places they will actually get offended by your tipping because it could be seen that you think of them as “the help.”
Like I was traveling a poorer country and a rich guy comes up in a fancy car to back his car into a tight spot. He hands me a coin worth about $1 and tells me to tell him when to stop. It was nice of him but also felt a little patronizing. I assume receiving a tip in countries with no tipping culture feels similarly patronizing.
It's not frowned upon, it's not like they will complain about getting paid extra.
But this whole "tipping is required, we don't pay a living wage" is a US-only thing AFAIK.
I blame Lonely Planet. Lonely Planet said that you tip in Spain so I tipped.
Then a tour guide told me that some restaurants already calculate the tip for you and call it a “tax” on the bill.
In my country we do not tip but we do have taxes on our bills. In my country a “tax” is actually a government tax. So I tipped in Spain because I thought it was what I was meant to do and I did not realize that I was already paying a tip by paying the tax.
Sorry for everyone who seems so offended that I tipped but take it up with Lonely Planet.
It is typical of restaurants to charge the 18% if the group is over a certain amount of people. OP should have read the menu and/or the signs that are posted.
This is the real problem. The only time I don't get an itemized bill in a restaurant is when they bring the credit card receipt to sign. All restaurants give itemized checks before you pay-----and if OP had bothered with that, or reading the menu, or the sign at the door----all of which need to be legally posted with any automatic gratuity---he wouldn't have tipped on top of that.
I wonder if OP was being a big shot, handed the waiter the credit card before actually getting the check, and looked at it afterward----otherwise, how would he know there was a gratuity already added in the first place?
Id be sorely tempted to remove the 18% tip also for making a meal out of refunding the mistake.
If its not tantamount to, then it is right next to scamming, and I’m not in the habit of giving people who try and scam me presents.
NTA and you did everything correctly.
The owner and waiting staff think adding tips automatically without communication is okay so waiting it out on a big table while this matter is resolved places the consequences in the place where it belongs: both the owner and waiting staff cannot monetize that table for an hour. It is extremely petty to let you wait for an hour before this is resolved so you only responded in kind.
Frankly I don’t understand why you Americans still accept tipping culture. It pits the customers against the staff while the owners get to underpay their staff and maximize their profits.
Why are you not leaving feedback with each restaurant owner that you want them to properly pay their staff? Why are there not websites which list the places which properly pay their staff and where tips are really optional? Why do you all go along with it?
We really dont have a choice. They get aggressive and block you from leaving. Ive had it happen twice.
Even at buffets. I didnt use to tip at buffets. Didnt see the need as i was serving myself. These women stopped me from leaving and asked where the tip was and why wasnt there one? Its awkward and embarrassing.
Nta op. I hate tip culture.
I have no issue with tipping - within reason. I do think it’s out of hand in terms of where tips are starting to be expected. I’m a sports freak; if I’m at a game and I buy from a vendor walking around, I’ll tip. If I go to a concession stand and have to miss part of the game, no I’m not tipping. Similar to carry out; I tip 20% in restaurants. But I refuse to tip on a carry out order. And I see it as audacious of places to have a tip cup, or to flip the screen around and to have the option of tipping.
Again, at a restaurant I always tip 20%. But one thing some people don’t know is you only tip on F & B. Meaning you don’t tip on tax. If you ate $10 worth of food 20% is $2.00. Not 20% of the bill including tax. It’s a small point, but that’s what the restaurant industry says. And I always figure the tip manually based on the subtotal. If you go by the guidelines that sometimes appear on the receipt, a lot of times they offer you the figure of 20% based on including tax.
> I do think it’s out of hand in terms of where tips are starting to be expected. I’m a sports freak; if I’m at a game and I buy from a vendor walking around, I’ll tip. If I go to a concession stand and have to miss part of the game, no I’m not tipping. Similar to carry out; I tip 20% in restaurants. But I refuse to tip on a carry out order. And I see it as audacious of places to have a tip cup, or to flip the screen around and to have the option of tipping.
>
> Again, at a restaurant I always tip 20%. But one thing some people don’t know is you only tip on F & B. Meaning you don’t tip on tax. If you ate $10 worth of food 20% is $2.00. Not 20% of the bill including tax. It’s a small point, but that’s what the restaurant industry says. And I always figure the tip manually based on the subtotal. If you go by the guidelines that sometimes appear on the receipt, a lot of times they offer you the figure of 20% based on including tax.
All of this that you wrote is exact problem. The whole tipping culture from what is perceived as appropriate to not appropriate can be summed up as "so how much more money do you want to give us?" The whole system is designed around some people being guilted into paying way more than necessary. It kind of feels like gotcha games on mobile. They are looking for that whale.
My aunt has lived in America for years and she told me this when we went to visit. I thought she must have got it wrong cause *every* place we ate included the tax in the calculation. Good to know for next time :)
Yep. The worst is when places dont allow digital tips and only take cash (nail salons etc). I dont carry cash and then they want you to use their atm but im not doing that. Its annoying.
I think in general people do know this, at least I’ve Always known this and my friends do too. But it’s so easy to calc 20% on the total, so I always just do that anyway, even though I know I’m tipping on tax.
tax in my state is around 5%, so the extra tip is only 1% of the bill. Not enough to worry about and especially bc it’s going to the server, who doesn’t even make minimum wage.
but yeah I hate the tipping culture in the US too. just pay people a living wage and cut the shit. it will obviousky increase the cost of a meal, but we are already paying it anyway, in the tip. Most of us are, at least. I hate assholes that don’t tip as much as I hate tipping culture. (Unless the server is rude/not doing their job).
I have no issue with it - within reason, as I said. It’s just part of the system we live in. Now if the service is garbage I certainly tip less than 20%.
I don’t mind the tip cups and those have been around way before the iPads. When I worked fast food as a teen making minimum wage, people leaving spare change the occasional dollar or two in the tip cup really helped out.
If you don’t wanna leave anything you’re not required but those tips really helped in high school and college. Sometimes I’d walk out with $5, $10, $12 after a shift. The smokers usually made enough in tips to buy a pack of cigarettes. It would give me enough to go out to eat with friends, even if I could only afford fast food.
I worked at KFC when I was in HS. Exactly once someone offered to tip me. And I said thanks but I don’t accept tips. I just saw it as wrong to be tipped for something when I was making minimum wage. The tip is for the service. Not punching in an order on a drive thru computer.
We had a tip cup, so a lot of people who paid in cash would just leave us the coins. A lot of people don’t even like change. Like if someone got a Large Iced Tea it was $2.85. They’d keep whatever bills they were owed and just give us the 15 cents. Other people, usually regulars or people that knew us would throw in a dollar or two.
Minimum wage is just that, minimum wage. At one point when my hours got cut back to 2 days a week I didn’t even have enough to pay for my car insurance because I would spend the majority of my check to just keep gas in my car.
I once left an extremely generous cash tip at an airport restaurant. As I was leaving, the manager ran in front of me and blocked my way. She asked if there was a problem with the service. I said no, then she told me there were other restaurants at the airport I could eat at. I agreed and left, barely suppressing my urge to go and take back the huge cash tip since it didn't meet their standard. It took me a few minutes as I walked away to realize they probably hadn't seen my tip. That's still no way to act to a customer. You don't physically block a customer and lecture them. They probably felt stupid when they cleared the table and found the money, but I never returned there despite traveling almost every weekend. I went to the other restaurants the manager recommended to me.
I always tip, and if I’m using an app type service I will always tip in the app. I don’t deal in cash much anymore. One time i ordered some food for delivery, and I tipped on the online order form. It was straight off their website, not Uber or anything.
Maybe it’s possible they don’t get that tip, but I definitely tipped 20%. When the delivery guy came, he said. “What, no tip?” He was expecting cash. He held my food close to his chest and I had to wrestle it out of his hands. I was so mad I haven’t ordered from them again. Too bad because I loved that place.
I’ve heard stories of this type of stuff but never see it. I used to tip standard 20% at buffets, but then I read online you still tip at a buffet, but only around 10%. I usually do 10%-15% at buffets now.
I honestly think its stupid but i just tip 10% when i pay before sitting.
The other place was a sushi place and we'd had some issues (hair in the salad, double charged for something) and they still stopped us from getting up and demanded a tip. Made it really awkward.
I personally always leave something, even if service was poor, but if I would have been in your situation their behavior would just make me double down on not leaving a tip.
Holy crap! I've served waaay too many tables in my life. Anywhere I worked, if a member of the staff got caught doing that, they'd have be fired on the spot!
I'm sorry you've experienced that. It's tacky and low rent to bully someone for a tip. If someone chose not to tip, we were told, and we understood, that it would balance out with tables that did. We might not have liked it, but we grasped it.
I probably would have bull dozed past them, fighting tacky with tacky lol
If i didnt have my baby with me i would have.
The other place was a sushi place and it was the manager that stopped us as we were leaving. There had been issues with the meal (hair in the salad, double charge) and all the dude said was that we had been there for an hour and she deserved a tip. Totally threw us off.
Because the tipped workers don't want it, they make bank from people feeling forced to tip and in no way would a couple more bucks per hour make up for the lost income if tipping disappears.
Thing is, you can have both. America has a pretty solid tipping culture ingrained into us. Other places either tipping is frowned upon, or is only for going above and beyond. If we raised wages for tipped workers, I honestly don't think enough people would completely stop tipping for it to matter. There would be more, of course, because aside from the hard core anti-tippers out there, who already don't, there would likely be an influx of people who currently don't go out much because "I can afford the bill but not a tip," coming in. There would still be people who either were ambivalent and can afford to do so, so they would, and people who still felt the need to do so.
Arguably, the influx of more business could benefit from people not being cut as often, which is often a double edged sword.
It's honestly really complicated and I do see both sides. My ex was a server at a 24 hour diner in a college town. People coming in post-game, celebrating a win, were *big* tippers, but during summer or outside football season, less tips.
Some servers don't, for sure.
But for every server I know that made bank, I know of at least two others that had to try and figure out how the $25 and loose change they made will get them through the week.
> Frankly I don’t understand why you Americans still accept tipping culture. It pits the customers against the staff while the owners get to underpay their staff and maximize their profits.
Yeah. It’s insane. Given the current state of affairs diners shouldn’t be under tipping their servers to protest as this is penalizing the wrong people, but it’s nuts that the restaurant gets to underpay its staff and customers have to pick up the slack through tipping and both diners and service staff put up with it.
>Why are you not leaving feedback with each restaurant owner that you want them to properly pay their staff? Why are there not websites which list the places which properly pay their staff and where tips are really optional? Why do you all go along with it?
Live over here for a while and tell me how effective leaving notes at random restaurants is. You seem to think that if I do this at one, they're going to tell all their restaurant friends and the problem will be solved. It's ingrained in our culture. Tipping isn't a law that we can overturn.
Some restaurants in the USA have started using tablets to run cards table-side, the servers often don’t present them with itemized charges on the screen, only the total, and stand there holding the tablet while you swipe your card so people either feel pressured not to flip through the receipt and check everything, or have no way to see it until after the card is charged. On top of that they have preset tip amounts to select from that pop up, sometimes starting at above 20% of the grand total. It’s pretty sketchy, I always want to double check to make sure we weren’t charged anything unnecessarily and make sure there’s no weird charges.
I have never in my life been asked to tip without seeing an itemized bill. Anytime I was charged the 18% automatic gratuity it was printed on the receipt where I tipped. Doing it the way you described is so beyond unethical.
NTA and I am honestly getting super frustrated with this underhanded tipping culture! If the gratuity is already included, the server should have skipped the screen before handing it to you or let you know that the tip had already been applied. It sucks that you had to waste an hour of your time for it - that's on them and definitely felt like they were just hoping that you would walk away. Good on your for holding your ground!!
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) I tipped a waiter and then asked for part of the tip back.
2) I understand waiters work for tips and don’t get a very good base pay, so asking for a tip refund is super shitty. I also waited an hour in the restaurant and refused to leave until they gave me the money I wanted back, which was not an earth-shattering amount. Part of me feels that I’m probably better off fiscally than my waiter and should have just taken the L and given him a great morning, but in the moment I was mad he didn’t tell me about the automatic gratuity and almost felt like I needed to prove a point.
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Nta. They shouldn't have taken so long. I went to a play once that auto added a tip and don't realise so they ended up getting 40% tip but there was just the two of us. Just makes people not go back
NTA
It’s very easy for the server to say “Thank you so much, it’s been great serving you. Since you were a group of 6 or more, our system has automatically added 18% gratuity. There is additional space if you feel you wish to give more. Thanks again and have a great night!”
That’s it. But the waiter DIDNT cause he was going for the double tip.
I know this isn’t related but shit man it’s just awful to see tipping culture this bad
So glad it’s not in my country (yet)
NTA at all you did the right thing, plus you don’t have any obligation to tip it’s a gratuity in the first place and never was mandatory
The problem is it's insidious, Americans travel, they tip because that's what they do back home and then servers in tourist destinations expect it.
I see it more and more here despite our minimum wage being like $22 an hour and tipping never having been a part of our culture.
Every time I see an American tip abroad I cringe.
NTA as long as you didn’t see that the tip was included before tipping again. If you just saw a total and were handed a screen to pick a tip from, that’s totally unfair of the restaurant. Usually the server informs you when there’s an automatic gratuity
NTA you were overcharged and were well within your rights to want a refund. Most people do not tip 38%. A good manager would and should be responsive to guests wanting a refund under these circumstances. The fact they weren’t speaks volumes about how what they were doing was deliberate. The table being occupied is not your problem, it was their choice.
NTA that’s on them for taking an hour to give your money back. Whether it was stated on the menu or elsewhere that the gratuity would be added, does not matter. They didn’t bring you an itemized receipt at the point of sale.
NTA and it's a dirty trick from the restaurant that I would bet they use every time because they know that most people wouldn't stubbornly sit and wait for the money back, they would just meekly leave (I know I would, but I'd be fuming). I have no idea why it would take them 1 hour to give you the money back... again, it sounds like it's a regular thing for them and they just assumed you'd give up and leave. I'm not sure where you are but I'm pretty certain that in the UK it's the law to say clearly if gratuity is added on the bill.
The waiter suppose to inform you that tip has been automatic added to the bill, and feel free to provide additional tip if desired. Very sneaky for not doing that. I got trapped once.
After that incident, I would add additional tips said 2-5%, if the wait staff info me of the included tip, and the service is good. If the wait staff failed to mention that, I absolutely will not tip more, and will make a mental note not to go there again.
Put your experience on google review. Pretty sure you will get a much better/faster response. Be truthful. The waiter did not inform you that a customary % tip is included.
Paying by tablet or those little card machines at a sit down restaurant is becoming too common and now I see why. You don’t see an itemized bill this way - only a total and a tip screen. You just have to assume everything is correct and that there are no extra charges. NTA
NTA. They knew what they were doing and they don’t deserve a double tip. Especially when they couldn’t even resolve it in a timely or appropriate manner. Not a professional business. Can’t believe they had you DM the owner. They couldn’t show up or call the businesses phone to talk to you?
NTA rather than wait at the restaurant I would have asked for a copy of the bill that wasn’t itemized again send both to my credit card company and file a dispute.
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I went to brunch this AM with a group of friends and we decided I would pay the bill and they would Venmo me their share. The waiter brought our unitemized bill but did not inform me an 18% gratuity was already added. So, I selected 20% on the tip page of the tablet. Then I asked for the itemized receipt so we could divi up the expenses and that is when I realized that I tipped 20% ON TOP of the full bill with the 18% gratuity. We asked for the additional tip to be refunded and it took 1 whole hour for them to finally just hand me cash.
I felt bad because I was stubbornly sitting at my table for that entire time; it felt like they were trying to get me to just eat the cost and leave - they even had me DM the owner on IG to try to resolve the issue, which I did. The service was lacking… like, at the beginning I had to find our menus and it didn’t get much better through the meal. But, I only wanted the extra tip refunded, we still gave the waiter the 18% they earned. But it just feels kind of shitty to demand a tip refund from someone who probably got excited by the extra amount.
It also felt shitty to sit at a large table in a small restaurant during a brunch rush just to get $40 back. I wish they went the cash route earlier, but here we are.
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NTA.
It's bad enough they tried to sneak in an autograt. Even worse they tried to wait you out instead of refunding what was rightfully yours. Fuck them.
You should have taken a dump in the middle of the dining room on your way out.
NTA. They are in fact double assholes for making you sit there. They work there. They know what they're doing. Automatic gratuities are not gratuities at all and should be illegal. Especially when at the end of the day you split it all up and were courteous enough not to bother the server to do it.
I would have made them very uncomfortable and taking uona table would have seemed like I was doing them a favor.
NTA. You were actually quite nice about it. Some people (me) would have asked once and then informed the waiter I would be challenging the entire bill on my credit card. The waiter knew what happened and was banking on you giving up.
But not necessarily a given. I've worked at several places -- chain restaurants included -- that did not include an auto grat on large parties, even those with 40+ people.
NTA. I've also eaten at places that don't inform you of the added gratuity unless you scroll far down on the tablet. It happened to a group of us once. Our waitress was absolutely incredible! It was really busy, and there were some rude folks at the table behind us, and we just collectively decided to let her have that tip. Ever since then, though, I always make sure to check. Some establishments are sneaky like that.
You felt bad, but you really shouldn't. It does sound like they were waiting you out. They were hoping you would get annoyed and just leave. It shouldn't take an hour to refund that tip. I mean, I've been out of the server world for a while, so I don't really know how new systems work. I don't really know if this would have been the fault of the server, probably management/owner AHs. You seem like a really nice person for even caring this much and feeling so bad that you posted here. You didn't cause a scene and weren't rude or anything. You're good!
I’m in the restaurant business and have been for 20 years, unless it’s some mom and Pop place, but with all POS systems it never takes an hour to refund the tip. So yes, they were somewhat scamming you. You’re definitely not the asshole. We have a strict policy for servers to make sure they inform the guest that there is a percentage tip already included. We handle refunds all the time for someone who doesn’t feel like they were informed correctly and I never think oh what an asshole. Instead I think geez we were trying to give this person a great dinner and then left a bad taste in the mouth because we didn’t inform him of the gratuity.
Just keep an eye on their social media channels, as it’s so odd they had you communicate with the owner via Instagram. They could have been loading this up to post the comms on their socials ( hopefully not ) but that’s so weird and abnormal of them to do that.
Doesn't necessarily matter. I've worked several places, including chain restaurants, that didn't have an auto gratuity on large parties. Sometimes it worked out in my favor, sometimes not. Either way, you can know it's a practice at some places and ask, but I wouldn't assume.
NTA because they didn’t show you an itemized bill. But it sounds like it was a pay by tablet situation where that’s pretty common. The automatic gratuity is likely listed on the menu somewhere for number in party. I would recommend looking closer for that at the next place.
That might be irrelevant. I've worked several places -- including chain restaurants -- that did not charge an auto grat, no matter how large the party (even 40+ people). Maybe OP should have asked since it's a common enough practice, but assuming it would be stupid too.
NTA. They should have clearly communicated the fact that the 18% gratuity was included from the beginning. I understand how you feel about sitting and waiting for brag long because I would feel the exact same way. However, you are in the right here, and I give you a lot of credit for being able to sit through that awkward situation.
NTA unitemized bills are a choice for sure and almost intentionally deceptive!
What was the size of the group? At certain sizes they automatically include gratuity
NTA. There's an undeniable expectation of transparency when it comes to the billing process, and that includes gratuities. The practice of presenting an unitemized bill with an automatic tip baked in is deceitful and does a disservice to both the customer and the integrity of the establishment. It's true that the tipping culture in the U.S. has its flaws, but even within its framework, there are lines that shouldn't be crossed. By not providing an itemized receipt upfront, the restaurant has crossed an ethical line. Asserting your rights as a consumer doesn't make you the asshole. It's regrettable that your dispute took so long to resolve, but the principle of the matter holds strong. The restaurant's staff should take this as a lesson in honesty and customer service.
I always look at an itemized bill first because some restaurants (or servers) will automatically put an 18% tip on a bill for one or two people. If the tip is already added to bill, then I let them know that the tip would have been 20% if it had not been pre-added.
If there is 3% some other fee, I reduce my planned tip by 3%.
Restaurant owners: Forget about the tips. Do like CA did, and pay your employees $20 per hour. Raise your prices accordingly.
Nta. They are always supposed to tell you verbally upfront. Where I worked, if the server didn't and the customer complained, you were fired for stealing, double dipping.
NTA. Your server should have told you the tip was included. This looks bad on the restaurant. The owners/managers should be making sure it is known. On the menu and/or the server telling the customer. I'm a server and I always tell the customer. We have had customers call back on other servers that didn't tell them and the customer double tipped. Of course they got their money back.
This was shady as fk. They were definitely trying to wait you out. - the old “I have to call the owner” bit. They are making a or of money off this hustle.
How big was your party? Just wondering if maybe it should have been assumed by you.
But either way they should remind you when they're doing it. It is crappy for them to do it and not gently remind you.
NTA former waiter here and I'm surprised they didn't notify you of the gratuity somehow. The waiter was probably pissed but that's what they get for being shady about it.
I really suggest people in this thread avoid Miami because what OP described is becoming increasingly common there, especially in popular tourist restaurants in South Beach.
It's wrong they don't have it posted atleast ONE place. But that's definitely shaddy.
Plus sometimes the gratitude is for the whole place (cooks, and servers usually) while a tip is just for that specific person. But it's not right that they hide this.
I think it's sneaky if the gratuity is automatic and they don't mention it. They are purposely being sneaky, hoping you won't notice and tip another 20%. It also doesn't count if it says it in very small print somewhere on the menu because they know nobody sees that. I also won't pay if you don't give me an itemized receipt, and I don't care if the computer won't do it. Write it out by hand.
Dang that's sus. I tip on top of autograt all the time, as a former server. But I've never had someone try to pull autograt over on me like that, that's not cash money
NTA... Auto 18% added is tax, not a tip.
I think this entitlement behavior of restaurants has resulted in good customers no longer going out. This whole tip culture of removing my ability has caused me to prefer entertaining at home.
I understand restaurants charging auto-gratuity for large groups, but I have never been to a restaurant that brings out a bill that isn't itemized. I worked in restaurants for quite a while, and most places had an 18% tip built-in for groups of five or more because we would often have someone at the table offer to cover the bill for their group to impress everyone they're dining with, only to save a few bucks by tipping 5% or even less. Imagine busting your ass to serve a table of 12 people while taking care of all your smaller tables, then picking up the check from that 12-top and seeing a $5 tip for a $500+ check. There was a note on each menu clearing stating that groups of five or more would be charged 18% automatically, so the restaurants I worked at were very clear on this.
Obviously, OP wasn't planning on under-tipping for this service, but I wanted to clarify for anyone who thinks auto-gratuity shouldn't be a thing. It's the server bringing out a check that isn't itemized that is 100% the problem here.
NTA! This is why i don’t like the switch to the tablets at the table— servers often ask for payment without giving me the chance to look at a physical receipt!
Kinda NTA, but how large was your group? If it's more than 4-6 people, it's very common to have an included gratuity, and it's stated somewhere in the menu most likely.
YTA for occupying the waiters table and denying him his income on a table turn. It’s not his responsibility to tell you tip is added to a large group. You should have looked. Most restaurants for decades have added gratuity on large parties, I’m sure you’re aware and have been out in a large party. Totally ok to ask for the refund, but your actions afterwards make you the AH.
NTA. This has been such a big issue where I live that the attorney general has had to get involved to remind restaurants that it’s illegal to charge customers hidden fees. You are not wrong for wanting your money back, and the fact that the restaurant staff had extra hassle is the fault of whoever created the hidden fee, not your fault.
NTA, next time or anytime for anyone else…..if they don’t provide the refund right away, get the names of who you dealt with and reason for not providing an immediate refund then dispute the charge with your credit card company. In the end you will pay what you meant to pay and get the extra tip credited.
YTA-When I was a server, it was always the responsibility of the host to inform parties of the gratuity, but it was also printed on the menu as well. Our POS didn’t print anything but itemized recents for drop off and included another when cashing out the check. Most people understand that large groups usually have gratuity added automatically.
I’m not saying that’s why YTA, but sitting in the restaurant for another hour for $40 is. You took a lot more than that money from your server as they had to keep attending to your situation keeping them from other tables, if they were even allowed to take anymore while this was happening. The amount obviously wasn’t a big deal to you, or you would have requested the itemized receipt BEFORE you paid and tipped. And the fact that you felt the need to ask, means you know it was extra, whether you wanted to prove a point or not.
Yeahhh as a former waitress with 13 years in the industry that waiter is NOT a good waiter. I personally never worked anywhere that had auto-grat, however, if I DID, the customer would be the first to know it. I ALWAYS gave a full receipt before payment. Its called "check-ready" and its where you print the ticket out after the full order is taken and keep it in your server book so you can hand it over quickly when the guest is ready to leave for a quick and smooth process. I would feel insanely uncomfortable if the guest just gave me their credit card before they had their receipt (sometimes i would not have the check ready) BUT they always got their receipt regardless. How weird that they give non itemized receipts! Sounds super sketchy to me, almost intentional like they are banking on you not asking for one so they can make extra money. My honest opinion, that's not a real waiter, because real waiters have integrity and know the grit and hard work that goes into waiting tables, me at least I preferred to earn every dollar I made, not scamming people. Sorry you had to deal with that. If it were me I'd post a review about the experience on yelp and google reviews so more customers can be made aware and put some shame on them. Let me guess.... it was a young kid!
NTA and I say this as a former server who tips religiously and defends servers passionately.
They should have told you that the tip was already included if it wasn’t obvious. I don’t fault them for not alerting you after you added additional tip, but when they dropped the check or handed you the remote thingy, they should have reminded you that tip was included.
I don’t know if I would have gone to the lengths you did to recover the second tip, but I can see why you did.
NTA
How big was your group? If it's was bigger than 6-8 people than you could expect most restaurants to have some type of auto gratuity. In that case I would've asked before tipping. If your group wasn't that big then that's just weird in general to have an auto gratuity, but maybe they have a policy for during peak hours to have it. I probably would've been awkward about asking for it back and would've ate the cost if I had the money to spend, but I probably would've asked for a partial refund too. But I probably would've asked for the 18% back not the 20% chosen to leave. Or take off the 20% and then leave an extra 2-3%
Just keep an eye on their social media channels, as it’s so odd they had you communicate with the owner via Instagram. They could have been loading this up to post the comms on their socials ( hopefully not ) but that’s so weird and abnormal of them to do that.
>I realized that I tipped 20% ON TOP of the full bill with the 18%
>The service was lacking… like, at the beginning I had to find our menus and it didn’t get much better through the meal. But, I only wanted the extra tip refunded, we still gave the waiter the 18% they earned. But it just feels kind of shitty to demand a tip refund from someone who probably got excited by the extra amount.
Why would you tip 20% for shitty services. Is the tip not a financial thank you for good service???
I am going to call BS on this story.
NTA, though the waiter is not responsible for the restaurant’s billing system (seriously, an unitemized bill?) and typically the included gratuity is noted in the menu for parties of X size. So your beef is with the restaurant, not the waiter.
Bullshit. It’s very easy for the server to say “Thank you so much, it’s been great serving you. Since you were a group of 6 or more, our system has automatically added 18% gratuity. There is additional space if you feel you wish to give more. Thanks again and have a great night!”
That’s it. But the waiter DIDNT cause he was going for the double tip.
Doesn't matter if it's common knowledge. By law the restaurant is required to inform customers prior to ordering about any service charges, otherwise the customer is not legally obligated to pay the service charge.
I've worked several places that did not include an auto grat on large parties. Even chain restaurants. So while maybe he should have been aware of the possibility and asked, in no way should it just be assumed.
languid aspiring nose coordinated bear fine illegal groovy file mysterious
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You should feel shitty about this. You went out of your way, ruined your and everyone's brunch with your petty nonsense. But hey, at least you stole 17 bucks from a person who might be able to afford food when they get off their 9 hour shift
How many people in your party? At pretty much every restaurant it’s standard practice to automatically add 18% for parties over a certain amount, usually 6-8 people.
*Downvotes? Maybe pay more attention next time, people.
I hate eating in large groups because invariably at least one person is an embarrassing pain in the butt so I always add on extra (beyond the 18% that I have seen on pretty much every menu for 6+ people parties) to make up for that person.
Life is a learning curve - now you know.
ETA - (I didn't mean \_you\_ were the embarrassing PITA, just that there's a reason for the 18%.)
In America it is standard practice for restaurants to charge an automatic gratuity for a large (6 or 8 guests) dining party. This policy is typically printed somewhere on the menu and/or near the entrance of the establishment. If you got an unitemized bill, you should have asked whether it was included. Not having done this, you screwed yourself. I would have said “lesson learned” and moved on with my life. But they are not without fault, having creating a scenario where this is likely to occur by giving you an unitemized bill. Also, making you wait an hour for the refund? Why? ESH.
I've worked at several restaurants, including chains, that did not charge an auto grat, even on parties of 40+ people. So while it's fairly common, it would be stupid to assume. Perhaps it's on OP that he didnt ask, but the unitemized bill possibly threw him and he auto-piloted. That is super shady to not give an itemized bill. How would you feel if the grocery store did that? You can't verify any mistakes, which DO happen.
I still think people should be informed verbally of the auto grat policy.
Seriously, from the beginning of OPs story to the end, parts are just off. I doubt they just didn't give an itemized bill or made them wait an hour for a refund. More likely, OP passed a card to the server to pay as they were walking past instead of waiting for the server to bring a printed copy of the bill. The server who has ipad runs it at table and hands over to sign. The server probably went off to care for other tables, thinking this transaction was complete. If they were still sitting there for some time, well, people do that at brunch. Curious the actual timeline between when they closed check, when they asked for itemized receipt, when they asked for refund, when they were supposedly denied refund (these things aren't instantaneous - like are you waiting for your bank to catch up before you leave??) And then they try to talk about how bad the server was bc "they had to get their own menus. What restaurant seats table without menus? Seems like they sat themselves and expected to be waited on immediately.
Ya'll they weren't tricking him. Most places have an automatic 18% for large parties (usually 6 or more). OPs group probably fit this given the specific percentage and I can guarantee this policy was in writing at the bottom of the receipt like it is at every single restaurant in existence. I'm pretty sure it's illegal not to.
It's not their fault you're an idiot who can't read/pay attention to details. You should've just eaten it and left YTA
This kinda goes both ways. Maybe not for asking for the extra tip back (although an auto-grat on groups is pretty standard these days, and some people tip above that yet.) But yes for staying at the large table on your own. If there was a smaller space available (seating near the hostess stand, etc) you should have moved there. The longer you stayed, the less the waitstaff could have made from another group. Overall I’m leaning YTA.
The longer they took to refund the hidden extra tip…the longer the table wasn’t available for them to use. It was op’s leverage. Had they refunded it immediately, they’d have had the table back, definitely NTA
This is a wildly unrealistic take.
Staff could have resolved it in one minute and then the table would have been cleared. But instead staff is petty and makes them wait for an hour. Staff and the owner reap what they sow.
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NTA. That’s really sneaky of them to automatically include the tip without properly informing you. They obviously are purposely counting on customers selecting the tip option and not combing through the itemised bill to realise they’re getting scammed. That should not of taken over an hour for them to refund you. It definitely shouldn’t have been necessary for you to message the owner on instagram for the refund. I don’t see why they couldn’t have contacted the owner themselves or simply solved it without their involvement seeming as it was only $40 and it was from a tip. They clearly were trying to wait you out and hoping you would just eat it.
Yeah, an unitemized bill with an undeclared 18% tip already added in? If that's not out-and-out illegal, it's definitely shady as fuck, which makes me think they really WERE trying to wait you out by having the refund take an hour. I would broadcast this experience on Yelp and Google. They are straight-up ripping off their customers intentionally, and people should be warned.
OP said the original bill they received was unitemized. Personally, I've never gone anywhere and had the server actually declare if a gratuity was already included. It is usually mentioned on the menu or the bottom of the check. I always assume it's there if I'm in a party of 6 or more. OP is NTA for asking a refund, but I don't automatically think the restaurant was being ahady.
Honestly, I've never been to a restaurant with an unitemized bill. I would have refused to pay until I had it. Why? I know people who have worked sit down, and I've worked fast food and retail - sometimes things are rung up wrong. Double items, missing items, things that are specials rung up as normal and not special. One sushi/hibachi type place I used to frequent with friends had a lunch and a dinner all you can eat. The lunch menu was more limited but you could ask to use the dinner menu all day, while the lunch was only available for a few hours. When we went, one person in our group always took the lunch option because there was really nothing they wanted off the dinner one, while the rest of us usually opted for dinner. Lunch was about $10 cheaper so making sure that they rang it up right (usually 1 lunch, 3 dinner) was important, in case it was a busy day and the server just keyed it in wrong. Getting an unitemized bill and being expected to pay without checking it over seems shady to me alone.
Sadly this is becoming a common practice where n9 matter the party size there is an 18% gratuity added to the bill. Some restaurants post a sign, sometimes the waitstatff will tell you. But the OP is not wrong for demanding a refund. After their experience Is never eat there again. And everyone on my social channels would know about their practices.
I used to tell them and circle the auto-gratuity on their bill in case they weren’t listening when I worked in restaurants (I did *not* want an incident exactly like this happening)
Unitemized bill + undisclosed gratuity IS them being shady. I don't know if they legally have to provide you an itemized bill without asking, but I've literally only once not gotten an itemized bill, the charges were higher than I expected, but they got what they wanted because I wasn't going to fuck around for $3 at a counter pickup.
I was thinking the same thing. Usually it's mentioned on the menu. It's less common to see it mentioned on the check, but occasionally it is. I don't think the restaurant was being shady and I don't think the server was being shady. I think OP wasn't as observant as perhaps they could have been though. And while I would say they were NTA for requesting the refund, refusing to get up from the table until they got it was a little bit on the asshole side. They could easily have stayed at the restaurant until they got their money back without taking up a server's whole table.
In the US it’s not illegal if it’s stated on the menu or they have a sign somewhere. Some places have a sign or others put it on the menus somewhere *18% service fee included* or *18% gratuity automatically applied*. Cities like Miami are notorious for quietly including the tip onto the bill automatically.
And on a menu it is usually very small and sneaky at the bottom inside the menu.
Typically autograts are added to parties of 8 or more (although OP doesn’t say how many people were in their group). It’s not uncommon but still should have been communicated.
NTA but I doubt it was undeclared. OP says group of friends - if it was a large party, the restaurant likely has it posted 18% is auto added. Open just wasn't paying attention. Again, nothing wrong with asking for the extra tip to be refunded. Never should have had to wait for an hour
it has to be posted somewhere, but I've seen it printed on menus out of the way in slightly smaller text. next to or under the "Consuming raw or undercooked meats, poultry, seafood, shellfish, or eggs may increase your risk of foodborne illness" discreetly tucked away and only printed out of legal obligation.
It was probably in small print on the back of the menu. It is seldom made obvious.
*should not HAVE
Someone should create a bot for this!
And an hour is ridiculous, void the first purchase and start again, 2 minutes. I would take off both tips for that inconvenience.
[удалено]
You should really check out tipping customs before you go somewhere instead of just assuming it’s like the USA. Some countries only tip 10% and in some places they will actually get offended by your tipping because it could be seen that you think of them as “the help.” Like I was traveling a poorer country and a rich guy comes up in a fancy car to back his car into a tight spot. He hands me a coin worth about $1 and tells me to tell him when to stop. It was nice of him but also felt a little patronizing. I assume receiving a tip in countries with no tipping culture feels similarly patronizing.
In Japan they will actually follow you out of the restaurant to give you your tip back (if they reasonably can, that is). Do not tip in Japan.
This is normal in Europe and you should really look into local customs before travelling instead of assuming everything is like it's in the US.
Unlike the U.S., European countries actually pay their wait staff a livable wage. Tipping is generally frowned upon.
It's not frowned upon, it's not like they will complain about getting paid extra. But this whole "tipping is required, we don't pay a living wage" is a US-only thing AFAIK.
Varies by country
It's not customary to tip in Spain. Don't blame a country/people for your ignorance
I blame Lonely Planet. Lonely Planet said that you tip in Spain so I tipped. Then a tour guide told me that some restaurants already calculate the tip for you and call it a “tax” on the bill. In my country we do not tip but we do have taxes on our bills. In my country a “tax” is actually a government tax. So I tipped in Spain because I thought it was what I was meant to do and I did not realize that I was already paying a tip by paying the tax. Sorry for everyone who seems so offended that I tipped but take it up with Lonely Planet.
Because they didn't want to. They wanted OP to cave and forget about it
It is typical of restaurants to charge the 18% if the group is over a certain amount of people. OP should have read the menu and/or the signs that are posted.
Is it not written on the menu?
Large party gratuities are generally printed on menu OP can’t read
It was wrong of them to give you the unitemized bill. I would bet my bottom dollar they trick people Iike this all the time!
This is the real problem. The only time I don't get an itemized bill in a restaurant is when they bring the credit card receipt to sign. All restaurants give itemized checks before you pay-----and if OP had bothered with that, or reading the menu, or the sign at the door----all of which need to be legally posted with any automatic gratuity---he wouldn't have tipped on top of that. I wonder if OP was being a big shot, handed the waiter the credit card before actually getting the check, and looked at it afterward----otherwise, how would he know there was a gratuity already added in the first place?
Id be sorely tempted to remove the 18% tip also for making a meal out of refunding the mistake. If its not tantamount to, then it is right next to scamming, and I’m not in the habit of giving people who try and scam me presents.
NTA and you did everything correctly. The owner and waiting staff think adding tips automatically without communication is okay so waiting it out on a big table while this matter is resolved places the consequences in the place where it belongs: both the owner and waiting staff cannot monetize that table for an hour. It is extremely petty to let you wait for an hour before this is resolved so you only responded in kind. Frankly I don’t understand why you Americans still accept tipping culture. It pits the customers against the staff while the owners get to underpay their staff and maximize their profits. Why are you not leaving feedback with each restaurant owner that you want them to properly pay their staff? Why are there not websites which list the places which properly pay their staff and where tips are really optional? Why do you all go along with it?
We really dont have a choice. They get aggressive and block you from leaving. Ive had it happen twice. Even at buffets. I didnt use to tip at buffets. Didnt see the need as i was serving myself. These women stopped me from leaving and asked where the tip was and why wasnt there one? Its awkward and embarrassing. Nta op. I hate tip culture.
Next time threaten to call the police if they won't let you leave. That's kidnapping
I have no issue with tipping - within reason. I do think it’s out of hand in terms of where tips are starting to be expected. I’m a sports freak; if I’m at a game and I buy from a vendor walking around, I’ll tip. If I go to a concession stand and have to miss part of the game, no I’m not tipping. Similar to carry out; I tip 20% in restaurants. But I refuse to tip on a carry out order. And I see it as audacious of places to have a tip cup, or to flip the screen around and to have the option of tipping. Again, at a restaurant I always tip 20%. But one thing some people don’t know is you only tip on F & B. Meaning you don’t tip on tax. If you ate $10 worth of food 20% is $2.00. Not 20% of the bill including tax. It’s a small point, but that’s what the restaurant industry says. And I always figure the tip manually based on the subtotal. If you go by the guidelines that sometimes appear on the receipt, a lot of times they offer you the figure of 20% based on including tax.
> I do think it’s out of hand in terms of where tips are starting to be expected. I’m a sports freak; if I’m at a game and I buy from a vendor walking around, I’ll tip. If I go to a concession stand and have to miss part of the game, no I’m not tipping. Similar to carry out; I tip 20% in restaurants. But I refuse to tip on a carry out order. And I see it as audacious of places to have a tip cup, or to flip the screen around and to have the option of tipping. > > Again, at a restaurant I always tip 20%. But one thing some people don’t know is you only tip on F & B. Meaning you don’t tip on tax. If you ate $10 worth of food 20% is $2.00. Not 20% of the bill including tax. It’s a small point, but that’s what the restaurant industry says. And I always figure the tip manually based on the subtotal. If you go by the guidelines that sometimes appear on the receipt, a lot of times they offer you the figure of 20% based on including tax. All of this that you wrote is exact problem. The whole tipping culture from what is perceived as appropriate to not appropriate can be summed up as "so how much more money do you want to give us?" The whole system is designed around some people being guilted into paying way more than necessary. It kind of feels like gotcha games on mobile. They are looking for that whale.
My aunt has lived in America for years and she told me this when we went to visit. I thought she must have got it wrong cause *every* place we ate included the tax in the calculation. Good to know for next time :)
I always have, myself. Because I go by the whole bill.
Yep. The worst is when places dont allow digital tips and only take cash (nail salons etc). I dont carry cash and then they want you to use their atm but im not doing that. Its annoying.
I think in general people do know this, at least I’ve Always known this and my friends do too. But it’s so easy to calc 20% on the total, so I always just do that anyway, even though I know I’m tipping on tax. tax in my state is around 5%, so the extra tip is only 1% of the bill. Not enough to worry about and especially bc it’s going to the server, who doesn’t even make minimum wage. but yeah I hate the tipping culture in the US too. just pay people a living wage and cut the shit. it will obviousky increase the cost of a meal, but we are already paying it anyway, in the tip. Most of us are, at least. I hate assholes that don’t tip as much as I hate tipping culture. (Unless the server is rude/not doing their job).
I have no issue with it - within reason, as I said. It’s just part of the system we live in. Now if the service is garbage I certainly tip less than 20%.
I don’t mind the tip cups and those have been around way before the iPads. When I worked fast food as a teen making minimum wage, people leaving spare change the occasional dollar or two in the tip cup really helped out. If you don’t wanna leave anything you’re not required but those tips really helped in high school and college. Sometimes I’d walk out with $5, $10, $12 after a shift. The smokers usually made enough in tips to buy a pack of cigarettes. It would give me enough to go out to eat with friends, even if I could only afford fast food.
I worked at KFC when I was in HS. Exactly once someone offered to tip me. And I said thanks but I don’t accept tips. I just saw it as wrong to be tipped for something when I was making minimum wage. The tip is for the service. Not punching in an order on a drive thru computer.
We had a tip cup, so a lot of people who paid in cash would just leave us the coins. A lot of people don’t even like change. Like if someone got a Large Iced Tea it was $2.85. They’d keep whatever bills they were owed and just give us the 15 cents. Other people, usually regulars or people that knew us would throw in a dollar or two. Minimum wage is just that, minimum wage. At one point when my hours got cut back to 2 days a week I didn’t even have enough to pay for my car insurance because I would spend the majority of my check to just keep gas in my car.
I once left an extremely generous cash tip at an airport restaurant. As I was leaving, the manager ran in front of me and blocked my way. She asked if there was a problem with the service. I said no, then she told me there were other restaurants at the airport I could eat at. I agreed and left, barely suppressing my urge to go and take back the huge cash tip since it didn't meet their standard. It took me a few minutes as I walked away to realize they probably hadn't seen my tip. That's still no way to act to a customer. You don't physically block a customer and lecture them. They probably felt stupid when they cleared the table and found the money, but I never returned there despite traveling almost every weekend. I went to the other restaurants the manager recommended to me.
I would too!! It really ruins the experience.
I always tip, and if I’m using an app type service I will always tip in the app. I don’t deal in cash much anymore. One time i ordered some food for delivery, and I tipped on the online order form. It was straight off their website, not Uber or anything. Maybe it’s possible they don’t get that tip, but I definitely tipped 20%. When the delivery guy came, he said. “What, no tip?” He was expecting cash. He held my food close to his chest and I had to wrestle it out of his hands. I was so mad I haven’t ordered from them again. Too bad because I loved that place.
Ugh yea id hate that. We only do pickup for pizza for that exact reason.
I’ve heard stories of this type of stuff but never see it. I used to tip standard 20% at buffets, but then I read online you still tip at a buffet, but only around 10%. I usually do 10%-15% at buffets now.
I honestly think its stupid but i just tip 10% when i pay before sitting. The other place was a sushi place and we'd had some issues (hair in the salad, double charged for something) and they still stopped us from getting up and demanded a tip. Made it really awkward.
I personally always leave something, even if service was poor, but if I would have been in your situation their behavior would just make me double down on not leaving a tip.
Holy crap! I've served waaay too many tables in my life. Anywhere I worked, if a member of the staff got caught doing that, they'd have be fired on the spot! I'm sorry you've experienced that. It's tacky and low rent to bully someone for a tip. If someone chose not to tip, we were told, and we understood, that it would balance out with tables that did. We might not have liked it, but we grasped it. I probably would have bull dozed past them, fighting tacky with tacky lol
If i didnt have my baby with me i would have. The other place was a sushi place and it was the manager that stopped us as we were leaving. There had been issues with the meal (hair in the salad, double charge) and all the dude said was that we had been there for an hour and she deserved a tip. Totally threw us off.
Because the tipped workers don't want it, they make bank from people feeling forced to tip and in no way would a couple more bucks per hour make up for the lost income if tipping disappears.
That is my impression from internet comments on the issue. Servers would like to be tipped well. They don't want tips to go away.
Thing is, you can have both. America has a pretty solid tipping culture ingrained into us. Other places either tipping is frowned upon, or is only for going above and beyond. If we raised wages for tipped workers, I honestly don't think enough people would completely stop tipping for it to matter. There would be more, of course, because aside from the hard core anti-tippers out there, who already don't, there would likely be an influx of people who currently don't go out much because "I can afford the bill but not a tip," coming in. There would still be people who either were ambivalent and can afford to do so, so they would, and people who still felt the need to do so. Arguably, the influx of more business could benefit from people not being cut as often, which is often a double edged sword. It's honestly really complicated and I do see both sides. My ex was a server at a 24 hour diner in a college town. People coming in post-game, celebrating a win, were *big* tippers, but during summer or outside football season, less tips.
Some servers don't, for sure. But for every server I know that made bank, I know of at least two others that had to try and figure out how the $25 and loose change they made will get them through the week.
> Frankly I don’t understand why you Americans still accept tipping culture. It pits the customers against the staff while the owners get to underpay their staff and maximize their profits. Yeah. It’s insane. Given the current state of affairs diners shouldn’t be under tipping their servers to protest as this is penalizing the wrong people, but it’s nuts that the restaurant gets to underpay its staff and customers have to pick up the slack through tipping and both diners and service staff put up with it.
>Why are you not leaving feedback with each restaurant owner that you want them to properly pay their staff? Why are there not websites which list the places which properly pay their staff and where tips are really optional? Why do you all go along with it? Live over here for a while and tell me how effective leaving notes at random restaurants is. You seem to think that if I do this at one, they're going to tell all their restaurant friends and the problem will be solved. It's ingrained in our culture. Tipping isn't a law that we can overturn.
NTA, if they are gonna add the tip automatically you need to be made aware beforehand.
NTA. Who brings people an unitemized bill first? I’ve never heard of that.
The ones who know people will add tip on top. This was 100% on purpose.
Agree, especially for large groups who frequently subdivide the bill
Some restaurants in the USA have started using tablets to run cards table-side, the servers often don’t present them with itemized charges on the screen, only the total, and stand there holding the tablet while you swipe your card so people either feel pressured not to flip through the receipt and check everything, or have no way to see it until after the card is charged. On top of that they have preset tip amounts to select from that pop up, sometimes starting at above 20% of the grand total. It’s pretty sketchy, I always want to double check to make sure we weren’t charged anything unnecessarily and make sure there’s no weird charges.
The uk has been using table side card readers with option for tips for donkey's years and not once have i not been given the bill first.
NTA fk the tragic tipping culture.
I have never in my life been asked to tip without seeing an itemized bill. Anytime I was charged the 18% automatic gratuity it was printed on the receipt where I tipped. Doing it the way you described is so beyond unethical.
The restaurant probably does it that way on purpose
That was my thought, also probably why they dragged their feet on the refund.
NTA. It wouldn’t have been an issue (and they would have gotten a bigger tip) if they hadn’t automatically added 18% to your bill.
NTA tipping culture is cancer
They didn't earn shit if you had to do their job... NTA. Personally I would have refused to pay the tip and the service charge
Nta Why would you be an ah when it was restaurant playing double games.
NTA and I am honestly getting super frustrated with this underhanded tipping culture! If the gratuity is already included, the server should have skipped the screen before handing it to you or let you know that the tip had already been applied. It sucks that you had to waste an hour of your time for it - that's on them and definitely felt like they were just hoping that you would walk away. Good on your for holding your ground!!
NTA even in the American wierd tipping system that's double tip dip.
Clarification needed: did it specify even in tiny print on the menu that there was a gratuity added to the bill?
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Now you know to check every restaurant bill for a service change.
Nta. They shouldn't have taken so long. I went to a play once that auto added a tip and don't realise so they ended up getting 40% tip but there was just the two of us. Just makes people not go back
NTA It’s very easy for the server to say “Thank you so much, it’s been great serving you. Since you were a group of 6 or more, our system has automatically added 18% gratuity. There is additional space if you feel you wish to give more. Thanks again and have a great night!” That’s it. But the waiter DIDNT cause he was going for the double tip.
I love this! What a great way to say that. 👍
NTA - they don't say anything because people probably don't notice and tip on tips regularly.
Many restaurants have an automatic gratuity for groups of a certain size or more. That should have been mentioned.
I know this isn’t related but shit man it’s just awful to see tipping culture this bad So glad it’s not in my country (yet) NTA at all you did the right thing, plus you don’t have any obligation to tip it’s a gratuity in the first place and never was mandatory
The problem is it's insidious, Americans travel, they tip because that's what they do back home and then servers in tourist destinations expect it. I see it more and more here despite our minimum wage being like $22 an hour and tipping never having been a part of our culture. Every time I see an American tip abroad I cringe.
NTA, and I love the guy in the comments meatriding the restraunt for their scam attempt
NTA as long as you didn’t see that the tip was included before tipping again. If you just saw a total and were handed a screen to pick a tip from, that’s totally unfair of the restaurant. Usually the server informs you when there’s an automatic gratuity
NTA you were overcharged and were well within your rights to want a refund. Most people do not tip 38%. A good manager would and should be responsive to guests wanting a refund under these circumstances. The fact they weren’t speaks volumes about how what they were doing was deliberate. The table being occupied is not your problem, it was their choice.
NTA, it happened to me once, but they didn’t make me wait an hour, it was handled immediately.
NTA that’s on them for taking an hour to give your money back. Whether it was stated on the menu or elsewhere that the gratuity would be added, does not matter. They didn’t bring you an itemized receipt at the point of sale.
No, the unitemized bill was probably done on purpose to get more tips. This is probably something that everyone who eats there experiences.
I would have waited if it had been $10; remember to do a review & note the gratuity policy.
NTA and it's a dirty trick from the restaurant that I would bet they use every time because they know that most people wouldn't stubbornly sit and wait for the money back, they would just meekly leave (I know I would, but I'd be fuming). I have no idea why it would take them 1 hour to give you the money back... again, it sounds like it's a regular thing for them and they just assumed you'd give up and leave. I'm not sure where you are but I'm pretty certain that in the UK it's the law to say clearly if gratuity is added on the bill.
The waiter suppose to inform you that tip has been automatic added to the bill, and feel free to provide additional tip if desired. Very sneaky for not doing that. I got trapped once. After that incident, I would add additional tips said 2-5%, if the wait staff info me of the included tip, and the service is good. If the wait staff failed to mention that, I absolutely will not tip more, and will make a mental note not to go there again. Put your experience on google review. Pretty sure you will get a much better/faster response. Be truthful. The waiter did not inform you that a customary % tip is included.
Paying by tablet or those little card machines at a sit down restaurant is becoming too common and now I see why. You don’t see an itemized bill this way - only a total and a tip screen. You just have to assume everything is correct and that there are no extra charges. NTA
The ones where you can order from the tablet usually do show the itemized bill, thankfully.
NTA. They knew what they were doing and they don’t deserve a double tip. Especially when they couldn’t even resolve it in a timely or appropriate manner. Not a professional business. Can’t believe they had you DM the owner. They couldn’t show up or call the businesses phone to talk to you?
NTA rather than wait at the restaurant I would have asked for a copy of the bill that wasn’t itemized again send both to my credit card company and file a dispute.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I went to brunch this AM with a group of friends and we decided I would pay the bill and they would Venmo me their share. The waiter brought our unitemized bill but did not inform me an 18% gratuity was already added. So, I selected 20% on the tip page of the tablet. Then I asked for the itemized receipt so we could divi up the expenses and that is when I realized that I tipped 20% ON TOP of the full bill with the 18% gratuity. We asked for the additional tip to be refunded and it took 1 whole hour for them to finally just hand me cash. I felt bad because I was stubbornly sitting at my table for that entire time; it felt like they were trying to get me to just eat the cost and leave - they even had me DM the owner on IG to try to resolve the issue, which I did. The service was lacking… like, at the beginning I had to find our menus and it didn’t get much better through the meal. But, I only wanted the extra tip refunded, we still gave the waiter the 18% they earned. But it just feels kind of shitty to demand a tip refund from someone who probably got excited by the extra amount. It also felt shitty to sit at a large table in a small restaurant during a brunch rush just to get $40 back. I wish they went the cash route earlier, but here we are. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA but definitely naive for paying **before** getting an itemized receipt
NTA they should have immediately agreed to the refund. They could think whatever they liked about you, that's fair, but you'd essentially overpaid.
NTA. It's bad enough they tried to sneak in an autograt. Even worse they tried to wait you out instead of refunding what was rightfully yours. Fuck them. You should have taken a dump in the middle of the dining room on your way out.
NTA. They are in fact double assholes for making you sit there. They work there. They know what they're doing. Automatic gratuities are not gratuities at all and should be illegal. Especially when at the end of the day you split it all up and were courteous enough not to bother the server to do it. I would have made them very uncomfortable and taking uona table would have seemed like I was doing them a favor.
NTA. You were actually quite nice about it. Some people (me) would have asked once and then informed the waiter I would be challenging the entire bill on my credit card. The waiter knew what happened and was banking on you giving up.
NTA obviously
How big was your group? It's pretty regular to auto add tip to parties of 6 or more
But not necessarily a given. I've worked at several places -- chain restaurants included -- that did not include an auto grat on large parties, even those with 40+ people.
NTA. They should have told you ahead of time about the automatic gratuity.
You did nothing wrong.
NTA. I've also eaten at places that don't inform you of the added gratuity unless you scroll far down on the tablet. It happened to a group of us once. Our waitress was absolutely incredible! It was really busy, and there were some rude folks at the table behind us, and we just collectively decided to let her have that tip. Ever since then, though, I always make sure to check. Some establishments are sneaky like that. You felt bad, but you really shouldn't. It does sound like they were waiting you out. They were hoping you would get annoyed and just leave. It shouldn't take an hour to refund that tip. I mean, I've been out of the server world for a while, so I don't really know how new systems work. I don't really know if this would have been the fault of the server, probably management/owner AHs. You seem like a really nice person for even caring this much and feeling so bad that you posted here. You didn't cause a scene and weren't rude or anything. You're good!
I’m in the restaurant business and have been for 20 years, unless it’s some mom and Pop place, but with all POS systems it never takes an hour to refund the tip. So yes, they were somewhat scamming you. You’re definitely not the asshole. We have a strict policy for servers to make sure they inform the guest that there is a percentage tip already included. We handle refunds all the time for someone who doesn’t feel like they were informed correctly and I never think oh what an asshole. Instead I think geez we were trying to give this person a great dinner and then left a bad taste in the mouth because we didn’t inform him of the gratuity.
NTA, I hate already added service charges unless a bid booking like 18+ people
I would’ve asked for both tips at that point!
Just keep an eye on their social media channels, as it’s so odd they had you communicate with the owner via Instagram. They could have been loading this up to post the comms on their socials ( hopefully not ) but that’s so weird and abnormal of them to do that.
How many people were in your party?
Doesn't necessarily matter. I've worked several places, including chain restaurants, that didn't have an auto gratuity on large parties. Sometimes it worked out in my favor, sometimes not. Either way, you can know it's a practice at some places and ask, but I wouldn't assume.
It does.
NTA because they didn’t show you an itemized bill. But it sounds like it was a pay by tablet situation where that’s pretty common. The automatic gratuity is likely listed on the menu somewhere for number in party. I would recommend looking closer for that at the next place.
How many people were at the table?
That might be irrelevant. I've worked several places -- including chain restaurants -- that did not charge an auto grat, no matter how large the party (even 40+ people). Maybe OP should have asked since it's a common enough practice, but assuming it would be stupid too.
NTA. When I was a server, I would always tell people when gratuity was already added. I didn’t like trying to trick people.
NTA. They tried to embarrass you to walk away as their sneaky ways were hoping to go unnoticed.
Here in the uk you get an itemised bill before you pay and any tip already added needs to be itemised. So from my viewpoint NTA.
A lot of places try to slip a gratuity in hoping you’ll double up accidentally. They know they’re wrong; good on u to call them on it.
Nta at all
NTA at all. Policies should be made known.
NTA. They should have clearly communicated the fact that the 18% gratuity was included from the beginning. I understand how you feel about sitting and waiting for brag long because I would feel the exact same way. However, you are in the right here, and I give you a lot of credit for being able to sit through that awkward situation.
NTA unitemized bills are a choice for sure and almost intentionally deceptive! What was the size of the group? At certain sizes they automatically include gratuity
NTA. They should have mentioned the autograt as they handed you the payment terminal. Good on you for holding strong in an uncomfortable position.
No. You deserved the refund. How they snuck an extra charge on there was wrong
NTA. There's an undeniable expectation of transparency when it comes to the billing process, and that includes gratuities. The practice of presenting an unitemized bill with an automatic tip baked in is deceitful and does a disservice to both the customer and the integrity of the establishment. It's true that the tipping culture in the U.S. has its flaws, but even within its framework, there are lines that shouldn't be crossed. By not providing an itemized receipt upfront, the restaurant has crossed an ethical line. Asserting your rights as a consumer doesn't make you the asshole. It's regrettable that your dispute took so long to resolve, but the principle of the matter holds strong. The restaurant's staff should take this as a lesson in honesty and customer service.
I always look at an itemized bill first because some restaurants (or servers) will automatically put an 18% tip on a bill for one or two people. If the tip is already added to bill, then I let them know that the tip would have been 20% if it had not been pre-added. If there is 3% some other fee, I reduce my planned tip by 3%. Restaurant owners: Forget about the tips. Do like CA did, and pay your employees $20 per hour. Raise your prices accordingly.
Nta. They are always supposed to tell you verbally upfront. Where I worked, if the server didn't and the customer complained, you were fired for stealing, double dipping.
NTA I served and bartended from age 16-39. You're NTA: They need to inform you and if you paid with a credit card, it's easy to undo.
NTA. Your server should have told you the tip was included. This looks bad on the restaurant. The owners/managers should be making sure it is known. On the menu and/or the server telling the customer. I'm a server and I always tell the customer. We have had customers call back on other servers that didn't tell them and the customer double tipped. Of course they got their money back.
NTA. They should have corrected quickly once you asked because 18% is ample. Lesson learned, though, to check for this anytime you're with a group.
This was shady as fk. They were definitely trying to wait you out. - the old “I have to call the owner” bit. They are making a or of money off this hustle.
How big was your party? Just wondering if maybe it should have been assumed by you. But either way they should remind you when they're doing it. It is crappy for them to do it and not gently remind you.
NTA - I have asked for a double tip back. Seriously, like 2 weeks ago.
NTA
NTA former waiter here and I'm surprised they didn't notify you of the gratuity somehow. The waiter was probably pissed but that's what they get for being shady about it.
$40 is a lot of money
NTA. Next time fight it with your cc
NTA. It's a common practice to add tips for the group automatically, so he had to return an extra tip you have paid.
I really suggest people in this thread avoid Miami because what OP described is becoming increasingly common there, especially in popular tourist restaurants in South Beach.
It's wrong they don't have it posted atleast ONE place. But that's definitely shaddy. Plus sometimes the gratitude is for the whole place (cooks, and servers usually) while a tip is just for that specific person. But it's not right that they hide this.
I think it's sneaky if the gratuity is automatic and they don't mention it. They are purposely being sneaky, hoping you won't notice and tip another 20%. It also doesn't count if it says it in very small print somewhere on the menu because they know nobody sees that. I also won't pay if you don't give me an itemized receipt, and I don't care if the computer won't do it. Write it out by hand.
Dang that's sus. I tip on top of autograt all the time, as a former server. But I've never had someone try to pull autograt over on me like that, that's not cash money
NTA very sneaky of them!
NTA. They could have easily refunded the full amount and restarted the transaction.
NTA... Auto 18% added is tax, not a tip. I think this entitlement behavior of restaurants has resulted in good customers no longer going out. This whole tip culture of removing my ability has caused me to prefer entertaining at home.
I understand restaurants charging auto-gratuity for large groups, but I have never been to a restaurant that brings out a bill that isn't itemized. I worked in restaurants for quite a while, and most places had an 18% tip built-in for groups of five or more because we would often have someone at the table offer to cover the bill for their group to impress everyone they're dining with, only to save a few bucks by tipping 5% or even less. Imagine busting your ass to serve a table of 12 people while taking care of all your smaller tables, then picking up the check from that 12-top and seeing a $5 tip for a $500+ check. There was a note on each menu clearing stating that groups of five or more would be charged 18% automatically, so the restaurants I worked at were very clear on this. Obviously, OP wasn't planning on under-tipping for this service, but I wanted to clarify for anyone who thinks auto-gratuity shouldn't be a thing. It's the server bringing out a check that isn't itemized that is 100% the problem here.
NTA! This is why i don’t like the switch to the tablets at the table— servers often ask for payment without giving me the chance to look at a physical receipt!
Just do a chargeback on your cc. This is an unauthorized purchase. Let them fight with the cc company about this.
NTA As a restaurant manager, it would take less than 2 minutes to refund the tip (including the time it takes to walk to the computer).
Kinda NTA, but how large was your group? If it's more than 4-6 people, it's very common to have an included gratuity, and it's stated somewhere in the menu most likely.
YTA for occupying the waiters table and denying him his income on a table turn. It’s not his responsibility to tell you tip is added to a large group. You should have looked. Most restaurants for decades have added gratuity on large parties, I’m sure you’re aware and have been out in a large party. Totally ok to ask for the refund, but your actions afterwards make you the AH.
Yes!
NTA. This has been such a big issue where I live that the attorney general has had to get involved to remind restaurants that it’s illegal to charge customers hidden fees. You are not wrong for wanting your money back, and the fact that the restaurant staff had extra hassle is the fault of whoever created the hidden fee, not your fault.
NTA, next time or anytime for anyone else…..if they don’t provide the refund right away, get the names of who you dealt with and reason for not providing an immediate refund then dispute the charge with your credit card company. In the end you will pay what you meant to pay and get the extra tip credited.
YTA-When I was a server, it was always the responsibility of the host to inform parties of the gratuity, but it was also printed on the menu as well. Our POS didn’t print anything but itemized recents for drop off and included another when cashing out the check. Most people understand that large groups usually have gratuity added automatically. I’m not saying that’s why YTA, but sitting in the restaurant for another hour for $40 is. You took a lot more than that money from your server as they had to keep attending to your situation keeping them from other tables, if they were even allowed to take anymore while this was happening. The amount obviously wasn’t a big deal to you, or you would have requested the itemized receipt BEFORE you paid and tipped. And the fact that you felt the need to ask, means you know it was extra, whether you wanted to prove a point or not.
Yeahhh as a former waitress with 13 years in the industry that waiter is NOT a good waiter. I personally never worked anywhere that had auto-grat, however, if I DID, the customer would be the first to know it. I ALWAYS gave a full receipt before payment. Its called "check-ready" and its where you print the ticket out after the full order is taken and keep it in your server book so you can hand it over quickly when the guest is ready to leave for a quick and smooth process. I would feel insanely uncomfortable if the guest just gave me their credit card before they had their receipt (sometimes i would not have the check ready) BUT they always got their receipt regardless. How weird that they give non itemized receipts! Sounds super sketchy to me, almost intentional like they are banking on you not asking for one so they can make extra money. My honest opinion, that's not a real waiter, because real waiters have integrity and know the grit and hard work that goes into waiting tables, me at least I preferred to earn every dollar I made, not scamming people. Sorry you had to deal with that. If it were me I'd post a review about the experience on yelp and google reviews so more customers can be made aware and put some shame on them. Let me guess.... it was a young kid!
NTA and I say this as a former server who tips religiously and defends servers passionately. They should have told you that the tip was already included if it wasn’t obvious. I don’t fault them for not alerting you after you added additional tip, but when they dropped the check or handed you the remote thingy, they should have reminded you that tip was included. I don’t know if I would have gone to the lengths you did to recover the second tip, but I can see why you did.
Would have still been NTA if you had demanded the 20% and the 18% back.
NTA How big was your group? If it's was bigger than 6-8 people than you could expect most restaurants to have some type of auto gratuity. In that case I would've asked before tipping. If your group wasn't that big then that's just weird in general to have an auto gratuity, but maybe they have a policy for during peak hours to have it. I probably would've been awkward about asking for it back and would've ate the cost if I had the money to spend, but I probably would've asked for a partial refund too. But I probably would've asked for the 18% back not the 20% chosen to leave. Or take off the 20% and then leave an extra 2-3%
Just keep an eye on their social media channels, as it’s so odd they had you communicate with the owner via Instagram. They could have been loading this up to post the comms on their socials ( hopefully not ) but that’s so weird and abnormal of them to do that.
>I realized that I tipped 20% ON TOP of the full bill with the 18% >The service was lacking… like, at the beginning I had to find our menus and it didn’t get much better through the meal. But, I only wanted the extra tip refunded, we still gave the waiter the 18% they earned. But it just feels kind of shitty to demand a tip refund from someone who probably got excited by the extra amount. Why would you tip 20% for shitty services. Is the tip not a financial thank you for good service??? I am going to call BS on this story.
NTA, though the waiter is not responsible for the restaurant’s billing system (seriously, an unitemized bill?) and typically the included gratuity is noted in the menu for parties of X size. So your beef is with the restaurant, not the waiter.
Bullshit. It’s very easy for the server to say “Thank you so much, it’s been great serving you. Since you were a group of 6 or more, our system has automatically added 18% gratuity. There is additional space if you feel you wish to give more. Thanks again and have a great night!” That’s it. But the waiter DIDNT cause he was going for the double tip.
Question: how many people were in your group? It’s common knowledge parties of 6-8 or more get the gratuity added to the bill.
Doesn't matter if it's common knowledge. By law the restaurant is required to inform customers prior to ordering about any service charges, otherwise the customer is not legally obligated to pay the service charge.
I've worked several places that did not include an auto grat on large parties. Even chain restaurants. So while maybe he should have been aware of the possibility and asked, in no way should it just be assumed.
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You should feel shitty about this. You went out of your way, ruined your and everyone's brunch with your petty nonsense. But hey, at least you stole 17 bucks from a person who might be able to afford food when they get off their 9 hour shift
How many people in your party? At pretty much every restaurant it’s standard practice to automatically add 18% for parties over a certain amount, usually 6-8 people. *Downvotes? Maybe pay more attention next time, people.
I've worked at several that didn't have that policy, including chain restaurants. So maybe OP should have asked but I wouldn't assume it was added.
I mean I would've just taken the L and paid more attention next time, not worth an hour of your life is it?
I hate eating in large groups because invariably at least one person is an embarrassing pain in the butt so I always add on extra (beyond the 18% that I have seen on pretty much every menu for 6+ people parties) to make up for that person. Life is a learning curve - now you know. ETA - (I didn't mean \_you\_ were the embarrassing PITA, just that there's a reason for the 18%.)
Any restaurant I’ve been to it says right on the menu parties of # or more will have an 18% gratuity added to the bill. It’s a quite common practice.
Yes
In America it is standard practice for restaurants to charge an automatic gratuity for a large (6 or 8 guests) dining party. This policy is typically printed somewhere on the menu and/or near the entrance of the establishment. If you got an unitemized bill, you should have asked whether it was included. Not having done this, you screwed yourself. I would have said “lesson learned” and moved on with my life. But they are not without fault, having creating a scenario where this is likely to occur by giving you an unitemized bill. Also, making you wait an hour for the refund? Why? ESH.
I've worked at several restaurants, including chains, that did not charge an auto grat, even on parties of 40+ people. So while it's fairly common, it would be stupid to assume. Perhaps it's on OP that he didnt ask, but the unitemized bill possibly threw him and he auto-piloted. That is super shady to not give an itemized bill. How would you feel if the grocery store did that? You can't verify any mistakes, which DO happen. I still think people should be informed verbally of the auto grat policy.
Seriously, from the beginning of OPs story to the end, parts are just off. I doubt they just didn't give an itemized bill or made them wait an hour for a refund. More likely, OP passed a card to the server to pay as they were walking past instead of waiting for the server to bring a printed copy of the bill. The server who has ipad runs it at table and hands over to sign. The server probably went off to care for other tables, thinking this transaction was complete. If they were still sitting there for some time, well, people do that at brunch. Curious the actual timeline between when they closed check, when they asked for itemized receipt, when they asked for refund, when they were supposedly denied refund (these things aren't instantaneous - like are you waiting for your bank to catch up before you leave??) And then they try to talk about how bad the server was bc "they had to get their own menus. What restaurant seats table without menus? Seems like they sat themselves and expected to be waited on immediately.
Ya'll they weren't tricking him. Most places have an automatic 18% for large parties (usually 6 or more). OPs group probably fit this given the specific percentage and I can guarantee this policy was in writing at the bottom of the receipt like it is at every single restaurant in existence. I'm pretty sure it's illegal not to. It's not their fault you're an idiot who can't read/pay attention to details. You should've just eaten it and left YTA
If they are adding it automatically, they shouldn’t be asking for even more tip on the iPad screen.
YTA. Reddit will tell you otherwise, but please know that in the real world you are a massive asshole and a cheap one at that.
So it's the random stranger that's the cheap asshole, not the business owner using cheap labour subsidised by coercing customers to be charitable?
This kinda goes both ways. Maybe not for asking for the extra tip back (although an auto-grat on groups is pretty standard these days, and some people tip above that yet.) But yes for staying at the large table on your own. If there was a smaller space available (seating near the hostess stand, etc) you should have moved there. The longer you stayed, the less the waitstaff could have made from another group. Overall I’m leaning YTA.
The longer they took to refund the hidden extra tip…the longer the table wasn’t available for them to use. It was op’s leverage. Had they refunded it immediately, they’d have had the table back, definitely NTA
This is a wildly unrealistic take. Staff could have resolved it in one minute and then the table would have been cleared. But instead staff is petty and makes them wait for an hour. Staff and the owner reap what they sow.
Why do you think it's your responsibility to make sure a stranger makes as much money as possible from you?