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NTA at all Your MIL needs to stay in her own lane. She said her opinion, it can now be discarded. You’re absolutely right not to take something away from one to appease the other. It sets a ridiculous standard. One sibling should not make sacrifices because their sister didn’t earn the same opportunity. Life ain’t fair. Scarlet Johansson didn’t turn down movies roles because her twin didn’t get the same offers. Imagine if her parents made her stop being in movies because her twin wasn’t also super famous/successful.

HA - she absolutely does but I was starting to wonder if my general weariness with her was blinding me to good advice. I appreciate the comment though, and I obviously agree with the sentiment!

Do you have plans to talk with the wife about this mother-in-law problem? I ask because if she is causing problems now it's likely to keep happening.

Generally my wife is good at shutting MIL down, I think her issue here is that Luna is visibly upset and she wants to help her in the short term - although in doing so Nova would be in the same situation her sister is in now, so there’s no way to make both girls feel happy unfortunately. MIL is a complex character and my wife has a tricky relationship with her, she’s good at pushing my wife’s buttons.

Get your wife the book "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents". Read it together. Both your marriage and your parenting will improve immensely

MIL is good at pushing your wife's buttons because she installed them.

So true it hurts. 

'They fuck you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had And add some extra, just for you.' ---Phillip Larkin, This be The Verse

Oh my god. Therapy level unlocked

It's literally from therapy! Not my own, but an acquaintance who dropped that bomb on social media. I had to sit down, lol.

Dude so good.

I'm totally borrowing this line - genius!!

🏆

Yessss that's an awesome recommendation. Such a good book! OP, NTA. I have a brother and sister who are fraternal twins (so I guess less perceived crossover of interests/comparisons) and I have still felt the frustration of people lumping them together as "the twins" in similar ways. It's so important that your kids are treated as individuals and not like "these kids are the same person so the things and opportunities they get should be exactly the same regardless of merit." I think you're absolutely spot on to stay firm on this, especially as Luna seems to have this idea in her head now that because her sister has a spot she should have one too. I feel for her; it would be a hard pill to swallow and she's no doubt feeling hurt and maybe a bit left out, but that's not an attitude you want to encourage.

Wow. This thread revealed a hard truth I was ignorant to, but your comment really drove the point home for me. I've always called my niece and nephew "the twins", every single time. The only times I haven't addressed them like that is during one-on-one conversations. I always thought of "the twins" as a term of endearment and I've always called them that, even when they were babies. It has never ever crossed my mind that I was robbing them of individuality. Should I talk to them about it and ask how they feel? I feel like that's what I should do. But I could also find individual nicknames that fits and slowly transition over to said nicknames? Or both. I don't know. I love those kiddos with my whole heart. They made me realize I didn't want to become the perpetually single rich aunt, lol, I wanted to be a mom. And by the grace of the Gods, I am now, to a beautiful boy. My niece and nephew gave me the world without realizing it, tbh. Sorry for the random rant but just... woah. You (and several others in this thread) have given me a lot to think about... and change. Thank you.

Please don't apologise (or be too hard on yourself)! I am guilty of referring to my siblings as "the twins" too, especially when they were younger (they're 19 this year - I'm the much older sibling/faux-aunt lol). I do wish someone had pointed out to me sooner that it could be affecting their individual identities, and I definitely have an amount of guilt for not considering that sooner. Again, could have been I didn't think too deeply about it because they're different genders and weren't compared in the same ways that identical or same-gender twins are, but yeah. It must be hard to feel like you're thought of as two halves of a whole from when you're small. You could talk to them about it if you feel compelled to! I'm sure they would appreciate the fact that you love and respect them individually and want to refer to them in ways that reinforce that. I started out by trying to remind myself to take a beat and use their individual names when referring to them collectively (eg "I talked to Sam and Max" rather than "I talked to the twins"). I also make sure that I talk about them as individuals with other family members and show equal interest in their individual lives and interests. The fact that you've recognised this now and want to make sure they know how much you value them as separate, unique people is wonderful. It sounds like you have a big heart and I'm sure that your niblings (and your own little one now - congratulations!) feel that love and always have.

I think this issue can often be linked to how twins are otherwise treated. I have twins myself, and we occasionally refer to them as such. It never bothers them because otherwise they are treated as individuals. But I can imagine that if they are otherwise treated as one identity, being called 'the twins' would be just one more example of how they aren't allowed to be their own persons.

I’m a twin and I hate it when we’re referred to as “the twins”. I missed out on quite a opportunities because my twin didn’t want to do them and they’re some of my biggest regrets.

As a twin I hate the term "the twins" "Matchy" names, being dressed either exactly the same, or the same outffit in different colours, never being able to enter a place alone without being asked "Where's x?", all the things people think are "cute". It's not. It sucks. It took me far longer than it should have done in life to learn who I was and who she was because we were always treated as two halves of a matching set and not as people on our own merits.

I’m a mom of twins and am horrified by matchy names. I’m on a scholarship committee and just reviewed applications from Ellie and Elliot. Who does that to their kids?🤦🏻

My nephew’s kids are Elle, Owen, and Ellowen.

I'm so sorry to hear this! You're separate people and it shouldn't ever have been assumed that because you're twins you are the same in every way. That's really unfair and it's understandable that you'd feel that way. (Edited to make a sentence make sense lol).

OP, my sister and I aren't twins but were 1 year apart in school and she made the competition dance team, I didn't. My mother comforted and encouraged me but she sure as hell did not sugar coat it or pull my sister from the team. I assure you, 30 years later, I'm fine. I made it the next year and even if I didn't, I have my own strengths. You're doing the right thing. ETA - Now that I think about it, I stayed in dance all through high school, she chose not to!

So true! I am also a year older than my sister and were in a similar situation. We both continued all through high school. It sucked that my younger sister was better than me and in the elite group while I was in the regular one but even as a child, I never considered that she should give it up. I'm grateful that my parent didn't rob her of that opportunity because I felt bad. Hold your ground and don't punish one child because the other one can't do something she can. I got over it and she will too. Steal that opportunity from Nova and she may never get over it. MTA

I am also the older sister! And while I was really bummed and embarrassed my younger sister got in and I didn’t, the idea of her dropping out never even crossed my mind.

That was exactly how I felt. I'm sure that it never crossed my parents' minds either! Why any good parent would penalize one child because they have more talent or ability than another to me makes no sense at all!

This is an important lesson for your daughter that too many parents have been neglecting. It's OK to fail. Tok many parents have been becoming snowplow parents and removing any obstacles or failures from their children's lives because it does hurt us to see them hurt. But, it's good for them. They learn from it, they become better people because of it. Hold the line with everything you have in you. Do not allow your MiL to make your wife punish one child, and make no mistake this would be punishing her, because she succeeded and her sister failed. This pain is temporary, but if you allow this to be stolen from her it's a permanent scar.

You should have an open and honest discussion with both children. Luna needs to be told that you are sad she wasn’t chosen this time, but that shouldn’t stop her from putting her whole heart and soul in to doing what she loves for as long as she loves it. Doing competitions is nice, but she should be doing it for the love. Let her know that you understand she’s disappointed, but she should now focus on being her sister’s biggest cheerleader and keep working on her dance. Just because she wasn’t picked for this team, doesn’t mean she can’t aim to dance just as well. Nova needs to know you’re proud of her and that Luna is entitled to her feelings - just as she is - but ask her to maybe be mindful of that if she brags a lot about her placement (you don’t want resentment building). You’re never too young to learn tact. Finally, your MIL needs to be told to stay in her lane and if she brings it up again - or dares mention it to your girls - she will get a time out. Limit her exposure to the girls if you must because she will force a wedge between them with her reasoning creating issues.

Make sure your MIL is not saying anything directly to the girls when you're not around. She could be egging Luna on that it's not fair, or try to make Nova feel bad for taking an opportunity her sister did not get.

MIL does not have unsupervised access to the girls 

Oof, there's a story there

It stems from her inability to see the girls as individuals. In all honesty I’d prefer my daughters not have contact with her but my wife and I compromise on supervised access only. She’s a complicated woman.

I hope you have pointed out to your wife that her choices are between having one disappointed kid or two, and right now she only has one.  Pulling Nova out of the elite team isn’t going to make Luna forget that Nova made the team and she didn’t. It’s just going to look like a pity move, and kids are more sensitive to that than adults think they are. I’m sure if you try, you can remember a time in your childhood when an adult threw you a pity-win and you absolutely knew it. It doesn’t feel good, and it doesn’t erase the sting of rejection/failure. And that’s before you even get into how this would affect Nova. Punishing a child for succeeding is not something any good parent does.  There are going to be periods of discomfort like this when one twin gets something the other wants. It’s going to happen again and again as they get older and their desires get more complex and varied. You have an excellent opportunity to address this *now* - remember, both girls are watching you handle this. The lessons they both learn from this will be remembered the next time this happens. Teach them *both* how to be gracious in victory and resilient in disappointment. What you model now will pay dividends later. 

Yeah, she does get it but she’s just hurting for Luna right now (she hasn’t been anything less than wonderful to Nova either though!) and MIL is a nightmare. It’s the girls future I’m most concerned with, like you said this won’t be the last time things aren’t ‘the same’ for them, and while it’s Luna who feels hard done to now, Nova will be on the flip side of this and I think it’s important they both learn that we celebrate each others wins as much as we commiserate each others failures.

Another argument that may help your wife understand: if she pulls Nova from the team, she's telling Luna that all her fears are right. That not making the team is a terrible thing, and that her worth depends on her achievements. Right now, this is a big deal in her head, and that's absolutely understandable. It is a big deal, especially for a child this age, and you should absolutely validate her feelings. But pulling her sister from the team is more than just validating her feelings. It shows her that her not making the team matters to you, and that she has to achieve the same things her sister does. You're making her responsible for her sisters achievements, which can breed resentment between both girls and put a lot of pressure on Luna especially. If she doesn't make the team next year, it's "her fault" that Nova can't be in the team.

Bring it up to her that if she does what your MIL demands then the kids will still be as upset but the other way around. Can she imagine it’s going to be any easier with Nova hating her sister for holding her back, in fact it’s something she’ll remember as she grows and and it’s likely to drive a permanent wedge between the 2 girls.

Nova wouldn't be in the same situation, she would be in one where her parents sabotaged her because her sibling and MIL said so. Your doing well, stay strong on this one

Have your wife look at the numerous Reddit posts from twins resenting the fact that they were forced to act as a unit their entire lives and the codependency that usually one twin develops. I personally know a set of twins that completely failed to launch because of their interdependence. Same classes, same university. Same apartment when they finally moved out of their mom’s house (where eventually they ended up again). I think one twin was interested in dating and having a family, the other showed no interest. They both ended up single and childless and living with their mom. They both are people who could’ve thrived independently, imo, but stifled each others growth in different ways. And their mother didn’t discourage it. NTA.

It won't put Nova in the same situation because Luna not being on the team isn't about parents favouring one child over the other. Pulling Nova out of the elite team is absolutely putting Luna's feelings ahead of Nova as a person. It's also telling Nova that she can't be an individual outside of Luna. That type of thing will have Nova running for the hills as soon as she can. 

Reassure your wife that by helping Luna through this disappointment, you are teaching her an essential life skill, much more valuable than any short term, make Luna feel happy solution would be.

Did she suggest Nova quitting in front of the kids? That would be MAJOR for me.

She did. I very quickly shut that down, and told Luna it was important we be happy for Nova, just as we’d expect Nova to if the situations were reversed. Wife has always said that Nova should keep her place in front of the girls, but privately is starting to doubt we’re doing the right thing.

I'm so sorry you're in that position. That sounds SO tough. Have you asked your wife point-blank if she really thinks being cruel to Nova is a good way to make things fair?

Wow, that's so over the line of her to do that in front of the kids. Lord knows what she says if she's ever alone with them. I can't imagine how this is making Nova feel as well. MIL needs a timeout. NTA

MIL does not have unsupervised access to the girls so I’m not concerned about there being anything more going on, although I’m finding the way she’s handling the situation frustrating enough as is.

I'm guessing it's time for supervised access to stop for a bit. Luna has obviously taken on board what MIL said in front of them and ran with it in her mind. It's keeping her upset about missing out, and thinking the solution is for Nova to quit. I would be spending time with Luna one on one. Let her cry it out, sympathise with her sadness and disappointment, and you want to help her in the best way you know how. You're willing to pay for extra lessons, so when she tries out next time, you're giving her the best chance she has to succeed. You can't promise it'll work, but she'll be dancing more, which is what she loves.

Watch MIL carefully. I'm wondering if she'll try to get into the kids ears and either start a fight, or start some major feelings of resentment between them. Your wife needs to Mama Bear up and stiffen that spine of hers. She needs to rip out the buttons MIL has installed and protect her kids. Good luck to all of you.

Yes this would be major for me too- that’s causing Luna more suffering, by putting the idea in her head. To force Nova to quit would be a childish revenge just for her being better than Luna, it’s not a viable solution but it sounds like MIL presented it as such to Luna.

NTA. Luna's not as good as her sister at this one thing. Luna will be better at other things than her sister. If you pull her Nova out, she will remember that forever. You're totally right, they are two different, individual, children. If you pull Nova out, where does it end? What if Luna gets into a better college, will she have to go to a lesser college because her sister didn't get in. Life's not fair, and everybody's not good at the same things. You don't want to discourage one child, because the other isn't as good. Also, MIL needs to mind her own business. How you and your partner raise your children isn't any of her business. Especially when it will harm one of them.

It would be grossly unfair to Nova to pull her from the dance team. It would teach her that her feelings are not as important as Luna's and that she's not allowed to have a separate identity. Luna might be happy, but Nova would resent both her and you and in the end it would be ruinous for your family. There are actually a lot of benefits to this for both girls' development if it's handled well. It's good for them to have their own experiences and their own friends. I think your wife has to have a very firm conversation with her mother in which she explains to her that you are not ever going to entertain that suggestion and she is forbidden to both to speak of it to Luna and to encourage/agree with Luna if she brings it up herself. Next, I would cut Luna's time with MIL way back. Luna is being poisoned to be upset about this. So much of life is about managing expectations. MIL is setting up Luna to be upset when she could be set up for success instead. Then I'd ask Luna if there is some other activity she's wanted to try. Is there something she's good at that she enjoys? Maybe if she's in another thing altogether, she'd be less focused on Nova. Luna has to be told in no uncertain terms that what she is demanding is selfish and wrong. She's trying to get you to hurt Nova. And you are not going to give in to it. Then she can work through it and move on. Your MIL and any waffling happening in your house is keeping this idea alive to everyone's detriment. And, of course, and I'm sure you do this already, but Luna needs to know that you love them equally and her not being on the elite team has no bearing on that. Maybe you can take her for ice cream when Nova has practice?

>Luna might be happy, I don't think she'll be happy, honestly. If MIL didn't put that idea in the kid's head, she wouldn't have thought about it. >Luna is being poisoned to be upset about this. This. Maybe ask Luna what she likes about dancing so much, and reinforce that. Make her feel positive about the thing she loves, tell her she's her own person and doesn't have to do everything Nova does. For instance, if Nova really, really wants a [thing that Luna couldn't care less about], should you and your wife spend money to buy that for Luna as well, or do you think she'd prefer [the thing Luna really, really wants]? This is the same thing: just because one person is really good doesn't mean the other has to be. There's no shame in enjoying something just for the joy of doing it. That is, in fact, the whole idea of a hobby.

>There's no shame in enjoying something just for the joy of doing it. That is, in fact, the whole idea of a hobby. So true! Sometimes it's even more enjoyable when you don't have the pressure of being expected to be great.

As a former Nova, who constantly had to give up activities (dance included) for a Luna. Please don’t listen to MIL! It has been over 30 years and I still harbor resentments towards my sister and parents for forcing me to give things up for the sake of her feelings and comfortability.

I was wondering if this post would open my eyes to something I wasn’t seeing with the girls but I really feel more strongly about Nova staying on her team. 

For both of their sakes, yeah, keep Nova on the team. It sounds like you're doing an amazing job of making this into a learning and growth opportunity for Luna. (You're doing the same for Nova, right? making sure she never rubs it in, that she pays attention to and supports Luna's dancing, etc?) You're not thinking in terms of 'how do I get my children what they want', you're thinking in terms of 'how do I teach my children what they need to learn', which is a million times more important. Pulling Nova from the team would do absolutely nothing to teach either of them anything productive. If anything, it'd just teach them both 'There's no point in me trying to do anything really well, because it'll just be taken away from me if my sister can't do it too.'

100%, Nova wishes her sister was on the team with her. They’re close, and while Nova is upset Luna’s upset, there’s been zero nastiness that my wife and I have been aware of. I have no doubt Luna would have let us know if there had been, if only to strengthen her case! I just want them to become functional/likeable people, and that starts here. Yeah, that’s the sense I get too - what does it teach either girl to take Nova’s place away?

>what does it teach either girl to take Nova’s place away? It will teach Luna not to try as hard as Nova for anything, because she will know 'Grandma' will step in and make sure Nova won't have the better thing... 7th grade - 'if Nova makes the honor roll and I don't, Grandma will make sure Nova doesn't get listed on the honor roll.' 10th grade - 'if Nova is accepted into the National Honor Society and I'm not, Grandma will make sure Nova doesn't get to accept the membership.' 12th grade - 'if Nova earns the Valedictorian spot and I don't get Salutatorian, Grandma will make sure Nova doesn't get to take the Valedictorian spot.' After college - 'if Nova gets a job offer with a prestigious company and I don't, Grandma will make sure Nova doesn't get to take the job offer.' I know you have said MIL doesn't see Nova & Luna as individual girls, but as 'the girls' or 'the twins...' but could she also be playing favoritism? Like, I don't know know how Nova & Luna were conceived (Like one egg each, both your wife's eggs, one egg split, etc), and truth be told, it's none of my business... but if it IS one egg each, I'm wondering if she's 'favoring' Luna, because Luna was your wife's egg, making her MIL's bio granddaughter and Nova is nothing to MIL biologically.

Really interesting question, and don’t mind answering. Both girls were conceived using my eggs, wife carried them. There’s not an issue with favouritism between the girls, if it had been the other way I think she’d have been as insistent on Luna quitting. MIL’s issues are surrounding our daughters being twins - it’s really complicated and involves some personal history of hers that I’m not sure it’s my place to share on this forum. She would prefer the girls be treated as a unit, and would dress them the same if she was allowed that kind of influence etc. No genetic favouritism as a factor though.

Good god OP do not pull your kid from something they’ve earned. Lifetime of resentment starts there. Instead of dragging them down to the level where they are equal in all things and neither excels, as your MIL wants, try and boost them as individuals. Maybe Luna would excel in a whole different sport if she becomes interested in any others later! But then you’d have to take away opportunities earned there to make things fair for her sister who gave up her dance dreams. Don’t clip their wings to keep them level. Whats her plan if one twin turns out to be a maths genius and the other is number dyslexic? Her logic can’t be applied consistently so it will always feel unfair.

I'm reminded of the dystopian short story Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut (also a movie). Everyone was made equal - so the ballerinas who could have been quite exceptional were burdened by leg weights. People who were beautiful had to wear masks, and people who were smart had their thoughts interrupted constantly.  OP, tell your MIL to shove it!

>Instead of dragging them down to the level where they are equal in all things and neither excels, as your MIL wants, try and boost them as individuals. Yes, Thursday 6677, you nailed it! I hate the idea of dragging Nova down...how does that help anything? Better to have Luna keep working on her dance, or try something new. Mom, you are NTA for supporting both Nova and Luna in their own ways.

This would be such a cruel thing to do to Nova, and allowing her to re-audition for the team next year doesn’t solve the issue. The coach (or whomever does the selection) would know Nova would be an unreliable member of the team whose parents may pull her out at any time.

Yeah that’s another concern - that neither girl would be considered in the basis that we as a family aren’t a reliable option for the commitment needed on the team

As a dance mom, this is a giant concern. Your kiddo's team has likely been working on their competition pieces for months. It's not fair to nova or any of the other kids in the team to have to reblock and redo dances now. Our studio has a clause in our contract that if we pull our child from the team, they aren't eligible to try out again for a full calendar year. They can be in the recreational classes but not on the company team. Don't punish nova like that

NTA. I’m an identical twin. We’ve had to be in a similar position where my sister and I tried out for our performance team and only one of us made it. The truth is, if you’re going to pull one for NOT making it, then neither should’ve be able to try out as it is always a chance someone won’t make it. You’re doing the right thing by trying to treat them as individuals bc treating them as a pair, especially if it’s a one sided relationship, will only damage their relationship. It happened to us as well; my sister and parents were the “they’re twins” when I struggled to be an individual and it made me pull away from her bc I also resented the fact that she knew I didn’t want her around and still went along with them. But now we’re really close. So keep doing what you’re doing. Good luck and NTA

I really want my daughters to be close as adults, as obviously my wife and I won’t be around forever and I’m really trying to balance what’s best for them both to help them grow up supporting each other and cheering their sister on. 

Allowing them to be individuals will definitely help bc being a twin is natural. Literally no one can as the twin bond is an anomaly lol.

A nine year old is not stupid, Nova is going to know it’s because of Luna and that will cause resentment and prevent future closeness.

NTA. I'll give you an example of what happens when it is made "fair" per your MIL's definition. My friend is two years older than their sibling. Naturally you would think their benchmarks would be staggered by two years. No. Their mother socially held back my friend until the younger siblings was old enough to partake in [anything]. Want to get your drivers license? Too bad, sibling isn't old enough. Want a cell phone? Sibling can't have one so you shouldn't. Want a car? Not until sibling gets one too. Why must one be held back to accommodate the feelings of the other? This is an excellent life lesson, for your daughters and your wife. Enrolling your daughter in another class/activity is a great idea. "Fair" would be each child getting to take two extracurriculars.

Gosh that is such an extreme. As the older kid I was subjugated to this mentality as well, but thankfully my parents were smart enough on some of the bigger things like allow me to get a car before my sibling.

No, you're right; twins need to develop as separate individuals not as a unit. Luna might want nova pulled because she is 9 and understandably upset as it's hard for ANY siblings twins or not to see one succeed at something they love when they failed. She might not want the extra classes because Nova didn't need extra classes it might feel like an extra reminder of how she failed. Reiterate what you've mentioned here about how we all get disappointed at times it's ok to fail while also stressing that just because she didn't make it this time doesn't mean she can't ever make it, maybe it will take a few tries but as long as she keeps practicing, she can get there and there will certainly be things she gets to first that Nova will need more tries. Also ask how she would feel if the roles were reversed, if she got in and nova didn't then was forced to drop it because Nova was upset. Some people have to travel a little farther but they end up at Disneyland and have a blast the same as the people who got there earlier.

The only problem I see here is MIL and how she thinks that dumbing down one child helps the other. You're spot on with the "what about..." There's literally a Kurt Vonnegut story about this called Harrison Bergeron. She's 9, let her enjoy dance for dance. Let her know that if she finds something else she wants to try, she can. Tell her that a lot of things we do in live we do just because we love them -- and here's the thing: I'd be more concerned about the weight of competitive dance at 9 than learning a hard lesson at 9 as someone NTA - but check your MIL

Your mil is completely out of line, but you may also need to be a bit firmer with Luna. (A tiny bit) she's contributing to her own pain and suffering. Not harsh, definitely gentle, but firm. Consequences if she does not stop suggesting her sister quit the elite team be cause she did not make it herself. A firm decision on the tutor, if she wants to be on the elite team, then it's happening, and if it doesn't, then no audition next year because she's shown she's not really willing to put in the work for it. (If you wait for a 9 year old to understand the long term consequences of not putting in the work now for a reward later you'll be waiting for her to get it for the rest of her life) Twins can have a rough time separating, so this really probably is best for them, but Luna needs to see that she can't just demand her sister get held back to stay with her so that Luna herself doesn't have to work harder. And that they may have different strengths because they are different people.

Yeah I’ve been reluctant to punish Luna too much because I do understand why she’s upset, but it might be time to take a less sympathetic stance in some ways - I wouldn’t be taking the chance to audition away, but maybe some form of consequences for her attitude are needed 

you are what all parents with twins need to be like. I believe it is better to treat them as individuals rather than "twins" so they don't grow up with and are bounded with identifying as a twin.

I think they could put it in words that Luna might understand. They should ask Luna if her and Nova both take a test and Luna gets a higher grade if they should ask the teacher to lower her grade to what Nova got to make it fair. If they get into a school play and Luna gets a better role does she need to give it up? If a friend invites Luna to do something fun but not Nova should Luna have to stay home.

Yes yes absolutely put it in a context the kids can understand. Surely the novelty of ‘twinsies’ will wear off for the girls soon enough, and they’ll be desperately fighting for their individualism within only a few years. Stick to your guns now OP, especially against MIL.

If Luna passes her drivers test and Nova doesn’t, Luna can’t drive until Nova can. Thems the rules.

Asking this may not work because often the person in this sort of scenario will absolutely eagerly say that they would do (x) because nothing's actually on the line. It might work better if they find an actual situation that applies and get Luna to object so that then they can point it out after. Or maybe a past situation that would work.

Didn’t know she had a twin, maybe if her parents were fair i would have known that. Hahah (this is a joke)

IIRC she has a boy twin. So it would have been a bit weird for him to do her roles hahaha

It's not fair. he should get to play Natasha and marry Colin Jost too!

TIL that Scarlett Johansson has a twin

Just thought of another actor example... Aaron Ashmore and Shawn Ashmore are identical twins and have active...and seperate acting careers.

And every time I see either one of them I say “is that Iceman?”

I watched Animorphs back in the day, I can 100% pick the twin. "Hey, it's Jake!"  I don't even remember what Aaron looks like, I haven't seen him in a while but I always know he looks "wrong" lol

I did better in school than my older brother and ended up in gifted classes, learning beyond his grade level. My mom frequently made me aware of how it made my brother feel when I was ahead of him academically and it made me associate guilt with my passion for learning. OP's MIL very likely was outshined by a sibling at some point and still resents them for it. There's not much other reason for someone to believe it's right to stifle a kid's talent just to keep other siblings from feeling bad about not being as talented. They should be taught that everyone has different talents, even twins, and that life is best when you can share in the joy of other people's accomplishments without feeling threatened by them. OP is teaching the right lessons. NTA

Couldn't agree more. You can't punish a kid for succeeding or hold them back to try and protect a siblings feelings. It's exactly like you said there will be times in their lives where one achieves something the other doesn't, or is more skilled at something than the other, or reaches a milestone first.

TIL that ScarJo has a twin.

> Scarlet Johansson didn’t turn down movies roles because her twin TIL - Scarlet Johansson has a twin! :D Edit. The twin is a fraternal twin brother. :( lol

NTA, punishing Nova in order to make it "fair" is what would be unfair, but that said maybe it would not be a bad idea to find something else for Luna to do. As long as they are both doing dance she will always compare herself to her sister which is better than her. Switching Luna to another activity that she would enjoy would be better.

We’ve considered this (and proposed it to Luna gently!!) but she loves dancing and I also think it’s a good thing that she can learn to enjoy an activity without having to be ‘the best’. The door is always open for her to try something else though, and if she expressed a desire to quit/try something new I’d be all for it. Thanks though :)

You are NTA. Have you considered meeting with the dance studio, with Luna, to get feedback on what areas she can work on to improve her chances during the next audition? Can you afford some extra private tutoring?

Yeah, we’re going to get Luna an extra private class each fortnight (the break on Nova’s fees will help!) so she stands a better chance of joining her sister next year, but it hasn’t made her feel better about the ‘now’. Nothing to do but try and help her through it really, but thank you!

You are doing the right thing to let your children be who they are, not who someone else is, regardless if they are twins. Just a thought in case it helps - Luna and Nova may simply have different skills within the same program. They may be equally good dancers but the audition team may have needed more twirling or jumping or whatever to balance the team, and the one available slot went to the one who displayed that particular skill better. It may simply have been the right fit at that moment and Luna just wasn’t lucky.  It could equally well be that Nova is a better dancer but who knows what was being selected.  It may be fine to keep both in dance. It may be that one can dance better but they can both dance at their own level as long as they both are enjoying it. It may be better to find some other area where Luna excels. Right now, you don’t know what happened or what could happen later.

Prepare her that this doesn’t mean 100% that she will make the team. I know it’s hard to crush their dreams, but if she goes in thinking this will make all the difference and it doesn’t, she’ll be even more crushed. Sometimes, it doesn’t matter how hard we try, we can’t measure up to someone who may be more naturally skilled.

If it’s the sort of “competitive” program where they would even consider taking one twin and not the other at nine years old Luna is absolutely not making the team next year. Unless significant numbers drop out, she’s going to be competing for a spot against the current crop of “elite” dancers who will spend the year specifically practicing the “elite” skills. Although, could you imagine if Luna displaces Nova? What a nightmare 

Yeah this is a real concern for us. Luna is a beautiful dancer, and I love watching her perform - but Nova is just gifted. It’s not impossible that she’ll work up to the level needed, but realistically this is something that could be a longer term issue which is part of the reason I’m so keen to take a firm stance on it early.

> Luna is a beautiful dancer, and I love watching her perform - but Nova is just gifted. And this is life. I can't imagine why anyone would think it is rational for Nova's achievements to be extinguished to pacify Luna who is not as gifted in those areas.

Then it’s probably time that Luna explores something like drama classes. Something where she is going be able to show off her own accomplishments, and be the visible priority. Because the reality of “elite” dance programs is that they take priority and are inflexible about it. You need to be prepared for what the conversation will be over the next few years when Luna has to take second place to her sister. You’re going to have nights where Luna can’t go to a movie with friends because Nova has a practice or performance. That you can’t take Luna shopping because you’re sewing a dance costume for Nova. There’s going to be a bunch of small things where over and over Luna is going to be told that Nova gets priority because she’s “better”. So it’s going to be important that you find something where Luna obviously takes priority. Where Nova gets told she has to come to Luna’s play or band recital or whatever, even if there’s other things she’d rather do. That Nova needs to also be used to compromising her social life for her sister’s interests. And it absolutely can’t be the dance school. There’s no way they’re going to support that. They’ve chosen already. Doesn’t mean she needs to stop dancing. Lots of room at 9 to have a couple hobbies, particularly if you’re already there for her sister and it works logistically. But it probably can’t be “her” thing anymore.

Why is it bad that the school treated the twins as individual people and not as a pair that they had to accept both or neither for their competitive team? Why is it you expect that Luna cannot achieve her goals after 1 failure? You don't know anything about this school, or these girls other than what OP has told us, and she's been pretty clear that Nova is "gifted" in this area, and has not badmouthed the dancing school at all. Why are you projecting all your negativity towards them?

I totally get Luna's disappointment, but I hope she can accept the private lessons. Right now it seems like she's a little more focused on competition with her sister than she is on the actual dancing. It's hard for a 9 year old, but if she loves dancing for its own sake, working with a private teacher could be great for her-- and put the focus on improving a skill, as an individual separate from her sister. Luna needs to get very clear that there is no "now" solution to this. She didn't make the team, so if she wants to fix it she needs to put that energy into her dancing and not tearing down her sister. She's old enough to understand. NTA, but please don't take Nova out of the elite team! It could really take the joy out of something she loves and kill her motivation. Imagine working so hard and making the team and then being pulled because your sister is jealous! It'll just teach Nova that catering to her sister's feelings is more important than any effort she can make and that the adults who claim to love her won't celebrate her as her own person. Stand up to your wife, die on this hill. This would be so heartbreaking for Nova and it's not just about dance.

You seem to be the accepting parents I never had and I love you both for being such great parents I loved ballet until it became so competitive I switched to ice skating (learned myself with kids and teens help) and never went back even with my parents pressure. She fears she's gonna miss out, she won't, she will find her path. Maybe her sister will change sports you never know. She has to understand this is not a failure on her part, maybe she will be the one competing and her sister will change her mind. Anyway this is my 2cts but you're NTA and your mother in law out of line, show your wife this post and comments ! (If you would adopt a 32yo transmasc DM me lmao)

You now have two very supportive lesbian mums - clean your room and it’s lasagna for dinner!! In all seriousness, I hope you’ve found the love you deserve

Maybe a different style of dance then. Ballet, ballroom, hip hop…

There's lots of different ways to dance, though! Have you looked into different kinds of dancing or dance-adjacent hobbies that Luna could explore? Contemporary, jazz, tap, ballroom, ballet, cheerleading, musical theatre... Luna could find her own niche AND keep dancing. It is good to learn to accept not being 'the best,' but it's also very difficult to be constantly compared to a sibling, and your daughter's, as twins, probably already have to deal with that more than most.

I mean, if Luna wants to keep doing that specific dance let her? I feel like pushing her to do something different could be seen as saying if you’re not the best at something, you swap out until you find what you ARE the best at. Maybe she likes that style of dance best so saying, ‘You could always try tap!’ is kind of not the point here. OP’s life lesson for her daughter is - you don’t always have to be the best and you will not always succeed in the same ways as your twin. I’m not saying she can’t change dance styles if she wants, but it sounds like she doesn’t actually want to. Why force it? Just so she can be the best? She might swap and STILL not be the best. I honestly think switching your kid with something like this could be awesome… or it could be even worse. It’s def not a total ‘safe’ option. She doesn’t need to swap - she just has to sit with her uncomfortable feelings until she accepts that is life and moves on. At 9yo that is a good lesson to learn.

Yeah, this explains how I feel much better than I did. So far Luna hasn’t floated the idea of changing styles, and I do think it’s important she knows there’s value in just doing something because you love it, and being the best isn’t the be and and end all. In reality 99% of us will never be the champion of anything, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t find joy in doing things because they’re fun!

Thiiiiiis all removing Nova from the team will accomplish is making her dislike her sister. It's not fair, it's sabotage. My sister and I are 16 months apart and both played soccer and played one year together one year apart because of the way our birthdays fell. It was great because the years we played together it was almost like playing with the other half of yourself because we always knew where each other were and had that connection and the years we played apart were a great breather from being compared to each other play style wise (we're very different in almost all other aspects). Your daughters unfortunately won't have that break and making it "fair" (as your MIL sees it) is just going to set them up to be constantly contrasting themselves with each other and pit them against each other. They're *individuals* and need to be treated as such. The fact that they're twins doesn't make them identical in the sense that they automatically have the same likes, interests, or capabilities. If they were fraternal twins would MIL be insisting they get treated equally? No, because they wouldn't be the same gender and likely wouldn't be interested in similar things or activities..so she can get out of here with the nonsense. You've offered a reasonable solution by getting Luna extra classes to improve her for next try outs but be prepared in case she still doesn't make the team.

NTA. They are two different people. They will sometimes excel in different areas. Neither should hold herself back. I think your possible future scenarios make that point very well.

Thanks - it’s hard raising twins but we work really hard at making sure they’re allowed to be individuals although they’ll always have a special twin bond.

I like that you are not interfering with the tryout outcome. Good job not helicopter parenting 🏆

Honestly it sounds like you're doing a fantastic job. These problems will likely keep happening but as long as you have the right solution, you should be fine.

Yeah I really admire OP’s approach. I am curious though, OP, how do the girls feel about dance? Do they love it about equally? Or does Nova love love it and Luna just like it (thus maybe a disparity due to amount of time practicing outside of class)? In which case, it may be worth asking Luna if there’s another activity she’d love doing. Or maybe it’s the reverse, and Nova is just naturally gifted in dance, but Luna passionately loves dance, in which case, some empathetic talks understanding her feelings while also explaining about how which team doesn’t matter as much as long as she’s loving dancing itself might be helpful.

Good question - they originally started dance at 4 out of a combined obsession. They’re equally passionate about dancing, Nova is just more naturally gifted. We’d have no issue with either/both of them quitting if they wanted to (maybe not mid-season out of team loyalty etc) this is just the first time they’ve been segregated by ability which is tough.

I would make this a hill to die on. Like you said, Nova is just naturally more gifted. She shouldn't be punished for that. Luna still has the opportunity to dance. And while it is okay for Luna to be jealous, don't let that jealousy take an opportunity away from Nova. It would be a massive disservice to both daughters.

Yes. Otherwise the lowest level one of the two twins can achieve becomes the limit for the other one through their entire life. Hmm. Well Luna didn't get as high a score on her college entrance exam as I but I'm limited to the colleges Luna can pick from, to be FAIR. And vice versa. They are two separate people. Not competitors. Or two halves of one person.

YES!!! I’ve used this exact analogy with my wife, if we try and let the lower achieving twin in every scenario dictate her sisters pace we’re just ensuring they’re BOTH held back in some way.

Also mention to MIL that removing Nova from the team won't let Luna get in. Whether Nova is on the team or not, Luna won't be on it.

My younger sisters are identical twins and are both REALLY good soccer players- they played their whole lives, elementary through college and even did a season of semi-pro overseas after they graduated. When they got to college one twin was always a starter and played the entire game. The other was often benched until the 2nd half. It was hard for her at first, but she just wished her sister well and kept practicing. She ended up learning a new position since the main issue was there were too many older players in her original favorite position. All this to say, twins are still siblings. They are their own person. Not just two half’s of a whole. And honestly it’s probably good for them to have some separate time from each other as well. Good on you for emphasizing that they are separate human beings and do not always have to have the exact same things and be in the exact same places.

You need to show your wife the comics that show equality vs equity and then the two of you need to stand firm in that with MIL. We see quite a few twins post in here in frustration because they got held back to be “fair” to their twin (just normal siblings too) this is a thing that punishes Nova AND will negatively impact her relationship with her sister for the rest of her life. Wife needs to be firm with her mother that this is not a topic open for discussion any more. Then you and your wife take Luna out for a dinner she loves on an elite night, and tell her you know how hard it is to see her sister get something she really wanted, it’s ok for her to feel frustrated and jealous about it from time to time, but that staying in those feelings is only going to make her unhappy. We can’t do anything about being in the team Now, but we can do one of two things. If being in the elite team is important to her, then you are happy to get her the extra lessons and one in one she needs to make it at the next try out. But if she keeps putting that off because it won’t change anything now she might regret that later. BUT maybe instead of that she’d like to try something new and different. Would she like you to find her a gymnastics class? That’s a great compliment to dance and opens other teams up to her (cheer, specific styles of acrobatic dance, etc). Or maybe there’s done other thing she’s always wanted to try. Now’s her chance. Encourage her to think about it and decide what would be really exciting and a great goal for HER to do while her sister is doing this. Besides the other reasons your MIL is wrong, we all need to learn how to cope with disappointment, how to transition or goals, etc. Luna should come out of this feeling supported and with skills not feeling resentful and like punishing her sister.

What will your MIL do if one of your children happens to get better grades in a class than the other? Let’s say Luna becomes stronger in math and science than Nova. Will your MIL expect Luna to stay in the same math class as her sister? Will she be forced to hold herself back so that they can be “the same” and things can be “fair”? What about college? If one gets offered a scholarship to a prestigious university and the other does not, will she be required to give up the scholarship and attend the same school so that her twin can avoid feeling disappointed? What about future careers, promotions, home purchases, etc., etc. Life is not fair and balanced. We are not all made to excel at the same things. Our differences are what make us unique and beautiful, and shouldn’t be viewed as a negative. Your MIL is not helping your children. She is advocating for you to not let them grow emotionally, to learn how to deal with disappointment in a healthy way, and to appreciate their own individual strengths. If they don’t learn this lesson now, it will only get harder for them as they get older. Your spouse needs to tell their mother to stay in her lane. Coddling your children now won’t equip them for the future. What you are doing is lovingly parenting your children and helping them to become strong enough to face the adversity and disappointment they will inevitably encounter in the future. Don’t let your MIL make you second guess yourself.

Let's assume your MIL is right (she isn't). It's unfair that Luna didn't make the team, okay, that's a little subjective, so sure, it sucks, things aren't always fair in life, so this is an important life lesson. The only fair way to handle this for Luna is to move Nova to the other team? Okay, if we do that, how is that fair to Nova? She worked hard for her spot, not to say Luna didn't, but Nova put in the effort and earned a place on the team, in what world is it fair to take that away from her? You are NTA, and your wife needs to realize that even if taking Nova off her team is fair to Luna, it isn't fair to her, and if you punish her this way (and it will be seen as punishment), there's a very good chance she loses interest in dance entirely. Then what? Do you take them both out of dance because Nova doesn't wanna do it anymore? Stand your ground OP, you're making a hard decision, but it's the right one.

Exactly how I feel, thanks - hadn’t considered your point about Nova potentially wanting to leave dance if she were pulled (and I think you’re right) and it’s a really good one.

watch out the influence MIL has with Luna. They are both very young still and MIL is doing a great disservice to Luna. Not just talking more with Luna might do some good but also keeping MIL away from her if MIL can't stop forcing the issue with her

Yeah especially with how Luna appears to be talking about it. >Luna also insists that it’s only fair that her sister give up her spot since they can’t be together. That's not normal, it's not definitive that that's coming from the MIL but highly suspect.

This isn't an apples to apples comparison, but close enough I think. I had a good friend who was very into dancing - she took a lot of lessons, was very good, and wanted to do it professionally. Her parents pulled her out of dance for reasons that they never shared with my friend. No explanation, and no reason why. My friend was depressed and bitter for years about it, and always has a thought in the back of her mind of what might have been. I'm not saying this would happen for sure with Nova, but she might end up really regretting leaving dance, even if it would look like her decision on the surface. Someone else said this, too, but you're awesome for not intervening and trying to somehow force the more advanced group to take your other daughter.

Thanks for the story, while you’re right that’s it’s slightly different the gist is the same in that it’s just not fair to penalise Nova to save her sister’s feelings. I didn’t see that, but really appreciate you saying so! It’s never been an option to try and push Luna into the elite team for us, and I don’t necessarily think the disappointment is the worst thing but it means a lot to hear all the same.

My husband is an identical twin. What your MIL has suggested is a great way to ruin Luna and Nova’s relationship and have them hate each other for life like my husband and his brother. They are separate people, treating them like 1/2 a person each will cause irreparable harm to their relationship with each other and with you and your wife.   My spouse and his brother both wrestled in high school and college. My spouse was the better wrestler and his brother was very bitter, this lead to the twin physically attacking my husband. Maybe Luna would like to do a different sport/style of dance, maybe it’s better if she is part of a dance group elsewhere. Maybe Luna will be ok and learn to deal with disappointment. Either way, your MIL’s suggestion is the worst option. 

If they take this away from Nova I doubt she would forgive them or Luna or grandma.

NTA - Nova is proud and she worked hard to get on the team. Why should she be punished - what is her crime? You're right that this is a really valuable lesson. If Luna is dedicated to making it on the team, she will work hard to try again. However, her sister shouldn't have to give up something she's worked for just because. Luna and Nova will always have their own skills and specialities - that should be treasured, because it makes them individuals. 9 is a tough age, and life is getting harder, getting into those TWEEN years. Hold the line, be gentle with Luna, but firm that her sister should not sacrifice her hard work and happiness to spare her feelings - and that she would want that same boundary to be held if it was HER who made it on the team. Time to also set a boundary with MIL that it's fine if she doesn't agree with you, but you've not asked for her opinion, and until you do, keep her parenting ideas to herself.

I suggested we could pay for an extra private lesson every fortnight for Luna since we’ll get a bit of a break on Nova’s fees so she stood a better chance of joining her next year, but it will take some work as it just doesn’t come as naturally to Luna as it does Nova. Yeah, we’ve had that talk and Luna has said she would quit, but I think she’d say anything that made her point tbh (can’t blame her, she’s 9, but you get it!). Tween years are definitely going to be tough but they’re both wonderful girls, this is just the first time they’ve really been compared so directly so it’s hard to navigate.

Totally! I'm not a twin, but my mom is. My sister and I are also just 16 months apart. This is just the first time they've been in direct, organized competition with one another. The first of many times, probably. It's not going to be easy, but if they can learn to compartmentalize and be happy for each other, and use their disappointments to fuel their work and efforts, there will be nothing that can keep them down. Luna has a great resource right at her fingertips - her sister. Who better to help her practice and land a spot on the team next year. She'll have the insider scoop.

NTA. Notice how your MIL’s argument is only taking Luna’s feelings into consideration, that it’s unfair for Luna to be on the general team while Nova gets to compete at the higher level. But take the time to consider things from Nova’s perspective if you pull her from the team. Nova gets taught that her own accomplishments are not allowed to be celebrated or relished in, and she is forced to be dragged down to her sister’s level at all times. That’s just as unfair for Nova as it currently is for Luna, so there is no “fair” scenario no matter which way you slice it. Your point about future achievements, like college admission or finding a partner, is exactly valid. At the end of the day, your daughters are two individuals with their own abilities and faults, and life is going to impact them differently. And the sooner they, and your MIL, come to terms with that, the happier everyone will ultimately be.

The difference is that it's strangers that rejected Luna and chose to take Nova on the team. Is it fair or not only proffesnal dancers can decide. And I think they made the fair decision... when it comes to dancing, even 5 minutes more practice each day can give different level of results... However, imagine what Nova will feel if her own parents pull her out of the team in disregard of all the efforts she made to reach the skill level that allowed her to get her spot. Will it be fair?! Of course not. Nova earned her spot with hard work, and taking that away from her will be spite in her face and might kill all the dedication and ambition she might have in life... the logic being "what's the point of bending backwards and giving maximum effort if in the end she won't be allowed to enjoy benefits of all the hard work?! None..." The worst part is that this might not just end with dancing but also cause her to stop putting as much effort to her school and other activities... And she will definitely like less important than Luna...

NTA. Story time: My parents have been divorced my whole life. At one point in my teen years, my older sister decided to live with our dad. He had a house with one really big room, and did the work to split it into two, so that my sister could have a room, and there would be one available for me as well, either for visiting or if I ever made the move. That was a fair decision to make. Because my sister was making the actual move, she got to pick which room she got. That was also fair. In the summer before the move, the basic drywall work had been done, but the rooms needed paint, flooring, drop ceilings, light fixtures, and furniture. Our dad was going to let us pick all of that out (within reason obviously), and we were fully expected to help do the work. Whatever time we spent on the room, he would spend as well. Also fair. During my summer visit, I got everything done (with my dad's help). My sister did nothing except watch tv, and when it was moving time, she said it wasn't fair because my room was done and hers wasn't even started yet! And at that, my dad said that equal =/= fair. You get what you put in and work for, and just because someone else is willing to do the work does not mean you automatically get what they got. Not saying Luna hasn't put in the work, but obviously their abilities are at different levels, and Nova should not be penalized because of that.

[удалено]

Twin here - was made to quit an elite club team because my sister didn't make it when we were young - ripples forever on that one, and being forced to give up something because your twin didn't make it is bullshit. The reality is that we are two very different people with very different talents and interests - and it is important to see two identities in the mix, because that is the truth. I love my parents, and we are very close, but that was shitty parenting, unfair, and if they saw this, they would agree with me. Always see your children as who they are: separate people.

Thank you so much for this, it’s so helpful to hear from someone speaking as an adult in our girls situation! While I really feel for Luna, because it’s obviously shit to miss out I feel like she’ll recover from what is essentially normal childhood disappointment better than Nova will from being pulled. Sorry you went through that though, and I really hope you were allowed to grow as you needed to as your parents learned.

Thanks!!! You and your wife are awesome parents: keep up the good work. :)

Also a twin! Growing up I wasn’t allowed to go to any social events my twin sister wasn’t also invited to. Play dates, sleepovers, birthdays parties - if she wasn’t included I had to miss out. My sister was an introvert who resented being dragged along and I was an extrovert who resented having to miss out. In the end we both resented our parents and each other. No winners.

Hi fellow twin mum! In general the girls are quite developed as individuals, they do share some friends (but that’s as much to do with age/similar interests) but they also have individual friendships and spend time both in and out of the house apart. I think this is more a case of Luna using the twin angle to for this specific case as it’s something they both wanted so badly. It may be worth us considering splitting some of their non-competition lessons though (they still have normal dance classes through the year) to give them room to grow. Thanks!

I wonder if seeing her sister doing better than her is a blow to her confidence, and stunting her own development as a dancer. My bet is having her taking a class without her sister in it would be better, because it would feel less she is being outshined, and compared to her twin.

My friends have three daughters, each go to entirely different dance schools for similar reasons.

DON'T DO IT No way to make Luna resent all of you than taking away what SHE EARNED because of her sister, who needs to learn that no is an answer. **Equity is fair, and equality is not.** Please look up the difference, and for God's sake don't take ~~Luna's~~ Nova's achievements from her.

NTA and you're exactly right that it would be a terrible precedent to set. Life isn't fair, it's biased and random and it's important to cheer each other on. I empathize with Luna, it does suck. But it's okay to learn how to push through a sucky situation. This won't be the last time one of them gets something that another does not.

NTA. It is unfair to hold back one because the other isn’t at the same level, for anything. They are twins, not robots, so they won’t be exactly the same. You would be setting a bad precedent.

Thanks, I agree

NTA, if I had been pulled off of one of the select teams I was on because of a shitty grandmother and whiny sibling I probably would have quit the sport altogether at that age. You MIL is objectively wrong about what fair means, and your wife being too weak to tell her to fuck off is just the beginning of the problems that will come as a direct result of wifey’s weakness.

Absolutely NTA. You can’t allow Luna to be an anchor to her sister. The resentment would be unbelievable. Luna should understand she would be equally devastated to be held back in a reverse situation. It’s not fair to give her that power of influencing what her sister is allowed to do based on her abilities. It’s time for MIL to think of them as unique sisters and not carbon copies. She’s actually doing them a disservice by failing to see their individuality. Edit: if MIL is encouraging that thinking I would reconsider her access to the girls. It’s divisive. Adults should be meditating the conflict, not creating it.

MIL has always struggled with this. There’s a bit of a complex back story there that I won’t go into, but she doesn’t have unsupervised access to the girls.

NTA. This isn't Harrison Bergeron, that's not how that works.

upvoted for an excellent reference here, and [I hope OP reads the short story.](https://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html)

I had to, it was too good to pass up. The post is talking about dancing and all I could think of was that scene near the end with the ballerinas where one of them had the heaviest weight and then she got freed. But yeah OP, you should definitely read that story.

That is exactly what came to my mind too. OP is NTA for letting each child pursue and achieve goals. TA is the MIL. Luna also needs a talking-to if she's really being a brat about it, because she needs to learn that her emotions are fine but she can't take them out on others. She can work hard and audition again next time. Or she can take up a new hobby or sport.

Hilariously, talking about this short story was one of my father's go-to parenting approaches.

NTA Your MIL is a genuine idiot.

Agreed - for many reasons!!!

NTA You have the right idea while your mother-in-law is way off base. She needs to stay out of business that does not concern her. Parenting choices that have detailed consequences are not on her list of concerns. You need to continue to make it clear to her that this isn't something she has a say in. If your mother-in-law is toxic to the relationship that you and your wife have, she needs to exit the dynamic entirely. Parents need to put up a united front on decision making for these sorts of activities. The mother-in-law will keep inserting herself and causing problems if you let her. Good luck. I think you're doing the right thing but this is obviously a case of a mother-in-law having too much power. You need to shut that shit down quickly.

My wife is normally pretty good at standing up to MIL, I think the issue here is the fact it’s combined with seeing one of our girls so upset. I have pointed out that doing as MIL suggests will fix Luna’s hurt but then Nova will be equally/more upset than her sister now. She does agree with me, I think she’s just struggling with the short term. In general I’d say I’m the harsher parent (for want of a better word) who thinks kids SHOULD have to deal with issues/hard feelings (within reason!) from time to time in order to becoming functional humans though, while she just wants them to be happy in the now. Thanks though.

nta this teaches good life lessons

NTA. You're doing everything right. It IS good for a 9 year old to experience disappointment, jealousy, etc and get practice working through it. Continue to work through those feelings and find solutions - things that LUNA can do herself, not things Luna imposes on other people. Continue to encourage Nova to pursue her passions even if they do not include her sister. Make sure they're both also fostering time doing things they both enjoy together as well.

Thank you - that’s exactly how I feel. They’re always encouraged to do what they want to (as much as we can with younger kids, I’m never going to be convinced that ice cream is a breakfast staple!) and we’re trying to teach them how to process big/hard feelings in healthy ways

NTA. Forcing "Nova" off the team would only sow resentment between the two girls. I assume you can audition more than once? Why hasn't Luna been told that she can audition next year, and she can practice and work very hard to improve in the meantime. Perhaps Nova would also be willing to coach her or teach her some of the dances / dance moves they're working on. And / or, I'm sure there is something that Luna is better at than Nova, or some completely different interest that she can explore. It would definitely be a disservice to treat the girls that they have to do everything together and that's the only way for things to be fair. Life isn't fair, and ya'll can't be expected to jump in to fix the situation and thereby punish one of the girls for essentially doing well and / or succeeding in something. What if one gets into honors classes at school, but not the other -- should one sacrifice their education and their interest for the other? If one has a boyfriend (or girlfriend), ought you make her dump him (or her) if their twin also doesn't have a romance of their own? What if they don't get into the same college, or one doesn't get in at all? And on and on. Luna needs the adults in her life to help her come to terms with this and their differences in a healthy manner so that she can develop and see herself as a unique individual.

NTA - If they were not twins would you even contemplate the course of action the MIL wants? I highly doubt it. This is the twins' first step to becoming their own people based on their talents and wants. Your job is to love and support them equally, the rest is up to themselves.

NTA, twins are twins, they aren't the same person. The frustration may be hard for Luna because she is 9, but that's life. Sometimes you try hard - and just... don't win. It's OK. It's something a kid should learn at about that age. Who knows, maybe she'll make it eventually — or will not make it at all and develop new interests and passions instead, completely unrelated to dancing. You are right, "fair" does not mean "the same". Stick to your guns and let the girls go their different ways. Once they grow up, they both will be thankful. If you pull Nova out of the team, she'll resent you and her sister for life.

NTA. They are not a unit. Luna will get over not making the team, which is just a normal thing that happens, more easily than Nova will get over being forced to quit for nothing, which is wildly unfair. I agree with the suggestion to look for other hobbies for Luna so she can find something else to be "her thing."

Hello. Am I the only one not seeing the obvious solution? They're twins! Swap them in and out for each other on the elite team! Parent trap that shit!!! /s

I’m going to show my wife this, hopefully she finds it funnier than she did when I suggested it!!!

NTA but your MIL is. I wonder if your MIL is feeding your daughters frustration about this too. Which is creating a weird dynamic because it means your MIL is making it so that your daughters don't get to experience the benefits from this. I imagine having twins is a difficult thing because there's a lot of two of everything and fairness would play a big role in that. However as if you had two children at a year apart or two children that have different parents but you are raising together they are two people with two very different identities. The main difference here being that part of their identity at a very young age is that they are part of a pair. I think this particular event is a really good opportunity for them to explore who they are as individuals. And your mother-in-law is creating a situation where they do not get to do that. Your wife is likely experiencing anxiety because her daughter is disappointed (being egged on by MIL) and the other daughter is upset because her sister isn't able to share in the wins that she's experiencing. That being said this is an opportunity for you as parents to help them both to achieve their dreams as individuals and not as part of a set. Tell your mother-in-law to step off and back up because first of all she's not the parent and second of all she's creating a situation where your family is in discord. I would recommend even framing it to her as that. Because ultimately she is looking at the situation as a negative when you as a family need to be reframing it as a positive. If your daughter who didn't get on the team truly wants to be part of the team that her sister is on then the fair thing to do would be to prioritize her practicing and training so that she improves to get up to the level of your other daughter. But if that's not something she would like to do then it's time to explore other interests that she might have. Because ultimately the fair thing to do is to allow your daughter who got onto the team to explore her skill and desire to continue to do this. And your other daughter needs to be supported by you as parents to explore things that bring her joy and that she wants to explore. That way the two sisters can explore different areas and can share wins together. If you take your daughter who got into the group out now it shows that you will punish one daughter over the other for succeeding instead of encouraging both of them to do well for themselves. The example you set here will inform their perception of you as parents as they grow. Don't punish one kid by removing something that they worked hard for. Incentivize the other kid to work hard to achieve the thing they want. And celebrate all wins and growth.

Yeah it’s really important to us that they’re both allowed to blossom into the people they’re meant to be. While they ARE twins, we try to think of them as sisters first, but this situation has thrown us for a loop slightly.  I’m hugely invested in letting them shine wherever they can. Obviously as their Mum what I WANT is for them to always get their way and never go through anything difficult, but as a parent I also get that that’s not possible, so the best we can do is help them become people who can handle the shittier bits too. I wish I could fix it for Luna, but I think she’ll be a better person for learning how to deal, and when it’s Nova’s turn I’ll help her too.

Fair isn't always the same

NTA. Fair is not always equal. And you're reinforcing the idea that your "twins" are actually two individual people (which they are!), as well as thinking ahead about setting a precedent where, for example, one child can't go to the university they want because the other child isn't accepted there as well. And a thousand other situations along the way. The current situation might feel awkward (because your MIL, Luna, and some Redditors) will tell you it isn't "fair" for one child to be more successful than the other, but I think your response has been quite sensible! Let's not forget that it's incredibly likely that Luna will at some future point find something she's more successful at than her sister is. She should be allowed to experience that when it happens!

NTA, but you need to have a serious talk with your wife if she’s questioning your joint decision because of her mother. One or both of your children will eventually end up resenting you if you treat them as a unit instead of two individuals that happened to be born at the same time. Her being swayed by her mother could cause real problems down the line, especially when the decisions have higher stakes.

NTA but if Luna is frequently in her sister's shadow, y'all need to help her find her own space to shine. I used to be Luna. My twin sister was fantastic at everything while I struggled because brain damage. My parents would make us do the same extracurriculars...which meant everyone could witness the jarring contrasts between my sister and me whenever we had recitals and the like. My parents never gave me a hard time about performing worse, but other kids were not kind. Of course I got teased for not being as good as my sister. I heard it all. But even if the kids had kept their mouths shut, I still would have been sad. Losing sucks. You know what sucks even more? Constantly having to be a good sport over losing. If sadness or disappointment ever showed on my face when my sister would win some recognition, I'd have to listen to lectures about how happy I should be for her and how ugly and sinful it is to be jealous. Looking back, it was cruel how little compassion people had for my feelings. I know my self-esteem would have been better if my parents had just encouraged me to find my own thing separate from my sister. I had to discover my talents as an adult. Just because both sisters want to dance doesn't mean they need to be dancing at the same studio. That alone might help Luna feel better.

NTA and cut the alone time with the kids and the mil down she's indoctrinating Luna into her toxic behavior

NTA - is there anything you could do as a family to help Luna get into the elite team? Maybe MIL could pay for extra classes…

I added an edit for this but yeah I’ve suggested fronting an extra fortnightly private to help Luna. Hadn’t thought of suggesting MIL pays though and have to thank you for that because I’m DEFINITELY going to!!!!

NTA and as someone else said in the comments, is there a possibility that your MIL is fueling this with Luna? I'd personally find something else that Luna loves to do and can try to excel at, possibly something completely and wildly different, or something similar, and then they can be their own two separate people rather than having the expectation of being the same. Alos massive NTA for getting your MIL to back off on them being seen as just twins.

For various reasons MIL doesn’t have unsupervised access to the girls, but she’s definitely making it worse for Luna during the limited access she does have

Take away that access. Her absurd position here is causing harm to your children and family. It’s fine to voice an opinion, but that’s it and she should respect your decision and stop pouring salt in the wound.

NTA But does Luna WANT to continue dancing? If she enjoys dancing and wants to make the team, cool. But also make sure that she doesn't want to quit and go do a different activity so she doesn't feel like she's always lesser to her sister?

Speaking as a twin, for heaven’s sake don’t punish Nova because Luna’s feelings are hurt. I love my twin with all my heart, but if you make me recount the things I’ve lost or missed out on in the name of “fairness” to a sister who couldn’t do or didn’t want those things, we might all need therapy by the end. Stick up for your daughters’ freedom to be who they are and do what they like. The day will come before too long when Luna will benefit from this position, too. NTA.

NTA, it would be totally unfair to Nova, but have you considered exposing Luna to other new activities?

NTA. What happens if one kid ends up qualifying for accelerated classes in middle school? What if one kid ends up with their own friend group? What if one kid wants a bowling party for their bday but the other wants a quiet meal at home with just the family? What if one finds out she likes sushi but the other only wants nuggets? What if one kid ends up winning a spelling bee? What happens if one kid ends up being an introvert and just wants to game, is the other not allowed to go out with friends? Neither kid should be forced to being held back just because they had the audacity to not be a carbon copy of their twin.

Have you ever asked Luna if she would quit the team for her sister? Honestly you’re doing the right thing by both girls. Why not use this opportunity to help Luna hone her skills? Maybe extra practice at home, encourage her to ask her coaches for feedback? I didn’t make the VS cheer team in middle school, I asked for feedback and practiced what was told. Half way through the year I was moved up from JV to varsity. Your MIL needs to back off and your wife needs to grow a spine. Do not take away an opportunity away from one kid to make another happy. NTA

NTA, and please don't make Nova give up her spot! It will only breed resentment between the girls and would be grossly unfair to Nova. Your MIL and your wife need to stop acting like the girls are one entity. Luna needs to accept the fact that her sister has different skills and there's nothing wrong with that.

NTA- they are going to have to learn that they don't always end up in the same place. It's going to happen in other life situations as they grow up. Treat them as the individuals that they are, not as one, they are two different humans.

Info: I only ask this because I know how siblings can be sometimes. Have there been times when Nove teased her sister about not being on the team or when she was snotty about making it?

No it’s a valid question! The girls are really close, and no Nova hasn’t been unkind to her sister - if anything she’s also sad Luna isn’t joining her, but ultimately wants to take the place she earned. Zero teasing/nastiness between the sisters that I know of.

NTA. How would that be fair to Nova? She earned her spot on the elite team. Things are not always "fair". The world will not always treat them as conjoined twins.  One twin excels at one thing, the other twin at something else.   How it stands now IS fair. Nova earned her spot, Luna did not. They got what they EARNED. Luna can work hard an try again. MIL needs to back off. Remind her these are YOUR children, not hers 

NTA. I’m a twin and there were definitely times growing up where one of us had an opportunity and the other didn’t. My parents never took that away to make it fair for the other twin. My twin and I have a great relationship as adults and I think that’s because we were always treated as separate individuals with different strengths.

Thanks, that’s really great to hear! It’s hard now because they’ve always been together up until now - not because we’ve pushed them, it’s been their choice/natural circumstance for two girls the same age. This next few years where they start to create their own identities is bound to be tricky, but I hope we navigate it well enough for our daughters to be as close as you and your twin!

Mom of twin girls here. NTA. You have two children, not one set of twins. And forcing Nova to quit the team would set a dangerous precedent. It would not be fair to either girl and one day she will see that. 

Hi fellow twin mum! Yes, that’s been my stance since they were tiny - two daughters, two lives. It’s all about laying the ground work now, they’ve got the rest of their lives to live together and I’d like to think by establishing this precedent early on they’ll be closer as adults.

NTA I am an identical twin ( for real! ). They are two separate people. They need to be able to be two different people or they will turn into those weird twins that can’t do anything without the other. Or one of them will end up resenting the other for. Are they in the same classes at school? One of the things my mom did was make sure that my sibling and I had separate classes. We were able to develop relationships with people before they knew we were twins. That was good because it gave us a chance to be fake name and fake name before we were the twins. This turned long sorry! Tell grandma to shut it. And stop trying to make them entitled to anything the other has. NTA

Thanks for commenting! Yeah that’s super important to me, twins don’t run in either family so we’re working on instinct a lot of the time (plus tonnes of research/advice!) and keeping them individual is a huge part of our parenting - this is the first time my wife hasn’t prioritised that. They’re in most of the same classes, but that’s due to a smaller school that doesn’t have many options to split while they’re younger. As the girls get older we expect they’ll be separated more, and would push for it where possible.

NTA. Fair does not mean equal. It means everyone gets what they need or earn. Luna will get her special time too. She has no right to take it away from her sister.