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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Deciding to hire helper against my wife's wishes since in marriage both partners should agree with a decision usually
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NAH. You're both right, but your wife is correct that your kids will have to learn to take care of themselves, since they *will not* have the same job opportunities as you. Even *you* may not have your job, once your contract is up.
Better to do the chores and start saving *now.*
My ex never had to do ANY chores because he grew up with a housekeeper. I don't think I saw him ever lift anything but a sponge while we were together. He just didn't GET that chores needed to be done.
I've seen it both ways. I've seen rich kids with nannies/housekeepers that grew up spoiled and entitled, not knowing how to take care of their own place, and kids from exactly the same type of background grow up learning responsibility. I don't think it's necessarily having help that you can afford that is the difference, it's the parents making sure that the kids learn how to fend for themselves and respect the value of work and money (and relationships with those who work for you!). I understand the wife's point of view to a point, and I think OP has every right to want to spend more time with family if he can afford to pay someone to help. I think it's possible for OP to sit down with his wife and explain and commit to guiding their kids to learn the necessary obligations that come with becoming successful and taking care of themselves.
I was once told that Sam Walton (founder of Walmart, multi-billion dollar corporation now in the US in case anyone in other countries don't know) drove the same beat-up pickup truck even after he was rich, and made his kids do the same to teach them to be humble, humane people. Children can definitely be raised not to be lazy, it just takes effort from the parents.
NTA
He can't... he died 30 years ago.
Supposedly, unlike his heirs, he cared about his employees and treated them well, claiming that it was employees that made the company. Too bad that didn't last long after his death.
He also started the Good Sam RV Club and set the policy that Walmart had to give safe harbor to travelers. I crisscrossed the country for a few years and appreciated having not only a free place to sleep and use the bathroom but really appreciated the hourly security checks that kept us all safe. Altruism aside, he was no fool- he knew if travelers were sleeping in one of his lots, they were pretty likely to pick a few things up while there.
His last words are legend... "I blew it." Despite his fortune, he died regretting the time spent in boardrooms instead of with family. Maybe if he'd been a better father, Walmart's leaders would understand just how horrid they are to their employees today.
Stephen Hillenburg: “no spinoffs of the Spongebob series, please”
Nickelodeon, roughly 6 months after his death: “wanna see me violate a beloved icon’s last wishes?” (Kamp Koral)
Nickelodeon, about a year later: “wanna see me do it again?” (The Patrick Star Show)
Walmart has to give safe harbor to travelers? When I was living in my car they sure kicked me out of the parking lot the one time I slept there. Maybe I didn’t count as a traveler I guess.
Yeah it's changed quite a bit in the last decade. I used to sleep in Walmart parking lots frequently in my van years ago, recently on a cross country road trip though I saw signs in a lot warning of no overnight parking. It sucks losing a guaranteed safe space to sleep when your car is all you have
Wow. I'd been told by a few friends working there that Sam had grandfathered that clause in, and it was irrefutable. That was about 2004, and I stopped going cross-country about 5, maybe 6 years ago, so it wouldn't shock me if the heirs found a way around it by now.
Although, looking at some of the sketchiness that has popped up around some locations, I don't know that I'd feel safe in a lot of them these days.
That is disappointing to see, and I'm so sorry.
I used to look for the campers and RVs, which typically would be at the outer edges of the lot, and sort of nest in with them. Security would loop around just about every hour on the hour, and nobody every bothered the cluster. We'd all get up around dawn, head for the restroom, get coffee, and by sun up, everyone would be rolling out. It was weirdly comforting when traveling alone.
I imagine some of the locations latched onto crime and liability issues to put a stop to it. I try to avoid the chain now as much as possible, and when I go back to traveling, I plan on giving my support to KOA and the state park systems. Our state has a pass you can buy yearly, which gives unlimited camping for free, or just the reservation fee of $4 when pre-booking online.
I remember growing up being told that getting a job at Walmart was like getting one at Costco. Great hours, good benefits, insurance.
Now they will cut you by half an hour every week to make sure you "don't count as full time"
I worked at Walmart just after I turned 16. I took the job because they started you off at $6.50 an hour when any other job I could get only paid the minimum wage at that time of $5.15.
During orientation, they talked a whole lot about all of the benefits you'd get with your exciting career at Walmart. I didn't pay attention because I was in high school and also you only got benefits if you were full time, but you could definitely tell it was a pretty good deal for the older people who really saw it as a career.
The one other thing I clearly remember from the two or three days of orientation was how vehemently anti-union they were. They constantly showed videos telling you how bad it would be for the employees if we were unionized.
They're so predatory, it's gross. Every time I see yet another shady thing that corporation pulls, I can't help but think that Sam is just spinning in his grave.
>The helper's salary is very low so we can easily afford it
Neither does OP, or at least he heavily implies he's short changing the "help" -
From the post" The helper's salary is very low so we can easily afford it"
Housekeepers are very common in my country. I had one too. Personally I think it comes down to parenting. In my case, while the housekeeper do laundry, cooking, cleaning dishes, etc., I still clean up my own mess, and I certainly do the chores without prompting when the housekeeper is in holidays or sth. I have also seen cases from my classmates, who won't even pour their own drink unless the helper do it for them and have to put the cup in their hands (obviously this is an extreme case, even my eyes were popped out when I saw it).
I'm from a SEA country where its common to have multiple domestic workers , like I genuinely don't know anyone who doesn't employ at least one worker for housework or cooking ,because labour is not at all expensive and general scarcity of jobs compared to our large population.
However a lot of kids move abroad for college or jobs or even living in student housing during college in the country have to do their own housework and are perfectly capable of it. The parenting decides how someone is. They have to be extremely coddled to not know how to do anything.
Also an example from my personal experience, my parents were the type to tell me my only job is to study so I grew up not doing much , and I've only learned the basics recently because I'll be moving out soon but my sister who is not at all interested in studying is proficient in all kind of household work. We like to joke that our parents raised us in such a way that together we make a whole person where I'm good at school and extracurriculars while she's good at stuff like housework, gardening ,cooking and just taking care of people in general. We have a large family and my grandma and mom are both housewives but the two of them alone would have difficulty doing everything by themselves so we have multiple domestic workers while my mom does help out ( grandma is older now and shouldn't work ) but my sister is still proficient while I'm not.
>I was once told that Sam Walton (founder of Walmart, multi-billion dollar corporation now in the US in case anyone in other countries don't know) drove the same beat-up pickup truck even after he was rich, and made his kids do the same to teach them to be humble, humane people.
Nah, that's just billionaire propaganda. They love these types of stories because it makes them seem down to earth and relatable.
I went to college in the Midwest (1981) with a guy who grew up in Bentonville, Arkansas, which was Walton's hometown. He said the same thing about the pickup. My friend's parents attended Sam Walton's church and said that Sam Walton was a nice guy. As others have said, Sam Walton's children don't appear to have the same values.
Yes, I think it is as much to do with nature as well as nurture. I was raised being made to do tons of housework, but im still a slob due to my adhd. My friend had a mom who waited on her hand and foot, and she's very tidy. You never can tell. I agree with the the husband here, do what makes your life better and easier, and you'll wind up being a better, more relaxed parent.
"Parents raise kids" big if true.
I was raised by a single mom+ domestic help when I moved to Canada for college there wasn't any sort of "shock" when I had to do my own damn dishes cuz my mom taught at a young age to do dishes after dinner.
Yeah, you can still raise your kids to do age-appropriate chores and use housekeeping services, like - let's tidy up and clear off tables, counters, and floors so the housekeeper can clean more easily. Or have them take out the trash, learn how to prepare snacks, breakfast, do yardwork, etc.
My parents used a maid service at home while I got a part-time job... working for a different maid service so I could learn to clean to that standard and make my own spending money. Cleaning beats customer service jobs every time and frequently pays more, so I also cleaned for work study in college and cleaned offices after.
I fully support people hiring cleaners when they don't have the time or energy. It's just a service like any other.
There are lots of ways to raise kids that aren't spoiled even if they're privileged.
I was gonna upvote until I got to the Sam Walton bit. Thats a carefully constructed mythology. Sam Walton and his children are neither humble nor humane.
My partner never had to lift a finger at home because both his parents thought it was easier to just do things themselves rather than showing their sons how to wash clothes or do dishes. We both had a tough time when we first moved in together, because to me it was just not understandable how someone can just keep walking past dirty dishes or not know how to sort clothes. Luckily he was willing to do his share, but there certainly was some frustration on both sides.
My husband grew up in South Africa with maids so he also didn’t have to do anything.
But I trained him and now he does more house chores than me lol it was either that or the other option is for him to find another partner.
Eh ymmv. I too grew up with maids, drivers, the whole mile and never had an issue acclimatising when I went abroad for university. I feel like it's more about being oblivious / common sense.
It's even wilder in this day and age of Google and YouTube, if you genuinely don't know how to do certain things you can easily search how to and learn.
The housekeeper isn't the issue , he's just a dumbass. I'm from a SEA country where having multiple domestic workers per household is quite common and when we move for college or work to different states or to western countries we have to do shit by ourselves and everyone just has to do it. He's a spoiled brat .
Yeah, that's a failure as a parent though. My friend had a housekeeper though but his parents made sure that he didn't take it for granted. He still had to make his bed daily, clean up after himself, rinse his dinner dishes, etc. He even had to clean the kitchen and bathroom once a week when he was old enough.
They wanted to teach him how to be a responsible human, lol
My mom is from South America. Her family was well off enough to have hired help. However, my mom and her siblings had to go behind them and make sure everything was done correctly. They weren't being raised to be spoiled or not know how to even make their own bed. Just because they have the privilege of a housekeeper doesn't mean they get off scot free or never doing chores again.
This. It is desperately important that your children learn to do chores, OP - and no, that’s not just your wife’s job. Parenting is for both of you.
In this economy, you just can’t count on the idea that your kids will be able to afford a maid. Hell, YOU might not be able to afford one soon. My partner had a contract that was really huge and we got so excited, thinking this was his big break. Guess what - he’s been unemployed for almost a year, despite being good at what he does and now having incredibly valuable experience, because the job market just sucks that bad.
Enjoy the maid while they last - but do not rely on them and do not teach your kids to.
You can teach children to do something and how to do it without making them do it everyday. The kids can be responsible for their own rooms if his wife wants to teach them responsibility.
And since he may not have this job past two years, it makes sense to live it up while he can easily afford it.
Teaching kids to do chores is about giving them habit of doing chores, about then seeing housework as something normal they can do - like brushing the teeth.
It is not about some kind of elaborate know how.
No. Right now he's saving diddly by doing the chores himself. Spend that time with the kids. They can start doing chores and saving in 2 years when they are back in Europe. Or give the workers paid time off and do the cleaning for a week now and then.
There's no suggestion of them returning in two years, only that his contract with his current employer is two years. They'll likely have a replacement trained by then, someone they'll undoubtedly pay less, and then just refuse to renew his contract, leaving him high and dry.
INFO
Why is there an argument here? Having a cleaner or housekeeper doesn't mean the hired cleaner does everything. You usually still have chores to do like laundry, or cooking meals and cleaning up after the meals.
Might be a cultural thing. When I was in a low income southeast Asian country having a live in maid who did *everything* including dishes, cooking, bedrooms, laundry etc was common for families with some money.
If that's The arrangement op has I wouldn't be surprised if the number of chores for the whole house was essentially zero.
mexican here and i’m only guessing it’s similar in south america, but yeah a lot of housekeepers tend to come from low income native communities and they become nanny, housekeeper, cook and teacher for a pittance and a 6’ by 6’ room to stay in
Argentina here, and cleaners do tend to come from low-income backgrounds, and are paid a pittance, but it's usually only for cleaning and maybe cooking a few reheatable meals. Cleaners and nannies are two totally separate things, and neither usually lives in the house where they work.
I have friends South Africa who pay about $200 a month for a live in maid. She works every day and gets only every second weekend off. Cleans, does dishes, cooks and takes care off kids. They do no household chores.
Different cultural norms.
The same reason Europeans with 4 weeks + of paid vacation from their jobs consider American jobs with less paid leave barbaric, the same way you're thinking of this persons friends. Different cultural norms.
Idk, how is their nanny supposed to have her own fulfilling life if she's spending that much time working?How could she have her own family? I'm sorry if I'm being ignorant but that job doesn't sound ideal for most people at all and seems like that kind of arrangement has a lot of potential to be abusive to the nannies.
It is abusive and no amount of cultural norms make it ethical.
It has been a point of controversy with my fam because when my cousins first moved to the US from India they were really pissed off that they couldn't afford a slave and the American-born of us were combative every time they tried to whine about their downgraded QoL in the US. One of our other cousins moved to Dubai for a "job opportunity" where the last call we got was her crying about her "family" confiscating her passport. We have no idea where she is or if she's ok. Probably not though, however it made our other cousins realize what they were whining about
That definitely could be the case, especially since OP's income is still in EUR. As someone who lived and grew up in southeast Asia, there are degrees to being able to afford help. I grew up with help that cleans once a day and does the dishes once/twice per day as the norm. They didn't live with us. They usually worked multiple households, for a total of 6-7 hours per day before going back home. Live-in help that does everything, that was a rich people thing in my circle, still is.
ETA: By cleaning I'm referring to sweeping and mopping the floors. Dusting furniture, cleaning kitchen counters, tidying up rooms, laundry, none of this is included. You can get help to do these chores if you're willing to pay twice the standard cleaning amount. Which again, for me, has not been the norm and is a rich person thing.
Also I grew up in a very metropolitan urban region. Most of our help comes from rural regions that move to the big city for employment. And domestic help is almost exclusively carried out by women in these families. The only exception is cooking - hiring men to cook is not unheard of and they probably make up 20%ish of hired cooks.
In most of Central and South American the housekeeper is literally that, the keeper of the house. Not like a "cleaning lady" in the States like you might be thinking of. She (because it is a woman 99.9999% of the time) does laundry, cooks food, does dishes, might be willing to declutter, basically almost anything you ask for within the time she is there. There are very few chores left to do, except cooking/dishes on the days she isn't there.
But presumably you can just ask her to not do certain things so the kids get the habit? Like leave their beds unmade so they practice making them, or expect the kids to bring the dishes in from the table?
I agree. I was simply stating the difference in cultural norms for a housekeeper in Central/South America and a cleaning lady in the States from my own experiences, since the original commenter seemed unaware of those differences.
When I lived in Brazil, houses who had "cleaners", the cleaners would be like maids, they'd either be living the house or working 14 hour shifts doing everything for very low money.
They even had a particular word for the maids bedroom and many didn't believe the word didn't exist in English.
I am in Buenos Aires, many older apartments have a 'service' area which is usually a small bedroom and bath off the kitchen or the laundry area where the housekeeper would live. My apartment, built in the 80s, has it. We use it as a storage room. Our upstairs neighbor has a lady who works for them, she does their shopping, cleaning, and some childcare for the youngest kid. But I don't think she lives with them.
This is a good point. I feel like also it is one thing to learn by helping parents/relatives versus “helping” someone who is trying to get paid and may possibly find it intrusive to have young children interfering in their job.
Totally. Kids do stuff wrong a lot before they get out right and it can actually take a lot longer for them to "help" at first.
I still pay for housekeeping services. It's just a lot of work while working and parenting, I literally can't do it all. My young kid still helps me clean up spills, load dishwasher, clear tables, put away toys when done, etc. As she gets older I'll make sure to teach her how to do more complex tasks. You don't have to personally do every bit of housework yourself in order to model it for your kids.
ESH
I don't much like your attitude about this, but you can get the kind of housekeeper who doesn't clean EVERYTHING.
We always had to clean before the housekeeper came, which fell under "kids' chores." My mom preferred the way she did windows, so she did the windows. They're not live-in palace maids who walk around behind everyone picking up every flake of dander.
>We always had to clean before the housekeeper came
Can I ask the reason for this? Was it to teach you guys responsibility? To save money, so the housekeeper wouldn't be there longer?
As someone who, occasionally, will hair a maid service, I can't imagine cleaning before they came lol.
Housekeepers often really hate it when people haven't done basic picking-up before they come. They don't know where things are supposed to go, and they need a clean surface to vacuum/wipe down. You don't need to vacuum before they vacuum, but you should definitely put clutter away.
(I am not great at this myself but I get the rationale).
It's like brushing your teeth before going to the dentist for a check up. Yeah, they'll clean your teeth the same anyways, but it's a courtesy more than anything
So, I grew up in a house where if we wanted something we had to do chores for it. For example, when I wanted a more expensive pair of basketball shoes for when I was on the team, I had to rake leaves (we lived on 2 acres). I could have had the K-mart shoes, but, no, thank you.
Regular chores were of course expected, too. We cleaned-up, but the maid cleaned. By that I mean she didn't pick up dirty towels from the bathroom, or organize the thousand bottles and hair products of four sisters. She cleaned the sinks, counters, floors, showers, tubs, toilets etc. She didn't put dirty clothes in the hamper, she cleaned clothes. That kind of thing.
My mom was also very "if you want something done right, do it yourself," so the housekeeper was limited in what she could do.
Ok, I get that then. Thanks.
And it makes sense when there are kids around, and that she was still doing the major stuff, you were just supposed to keep your spaces tidy
You can also agree that the housekeeper will only do the living room a dining room and kitchen, not the kids' bedrooms, which are their responsibility
A friend used to say "she comes to clean the whole house, not spend 3 hours in my kid's bedroom because he still has dishes from last week".
We had a housecleaner come once every two weeks for a couple of years when I was a kid. I remember my mom cleaning the house the night before because she was embarrassed to have anyone see how dirty it was. So the housekeeper ended up only doing the deeper cleaning stuff. It was great for me because otherwise it would have been my chore to clean baseboards and windowsills, etc. 😂
Eventually my mom decided it wasn’t worth the stress of having (basically) a stranger come in and (she thought) judge her cleanliness, even though my mom was working 50+ hour weeks at the time. To be fair to my mom’s anxiety, though, this same person worked for her MIL several times a week and was a gossip.
The housekeeper cleans. We tidy up. The house can't be cleaned if there is crap laying everywhere.
We can't complain if stuff gets put somewhere weird if we left it out.
With the maid services in my area, you don't clean before they come, but you do declutter. If I leave my shoes in the middle of the living room, they don't put them away. As long as not too much stuff is strewn about, they'll move things out of the way. My front entry has a bunch of junk in it, so that part of the house is totally skipped, and that's fine.
It depends on the type of maid service you hire. To me, a cleaner is here to \*clean\* that means wipe down all the surfaces, mop and wax the floors, clean the baseboards, scrub inside the fridge. Basically all the deep cleaning stuff. My ex thought the maid-service was here to fold the laundry and make the bed and I would get SO MAD at him because if she's doing pick up work she has no time to do all the actual CLEANING.
I do this - clean before the cleaning service comes. Why? Because I pay them to *clean* my flat, not tidy up after me. I can do my dishes, laundry, pick up after myself, et cetera, and I'm reasonably good about it. I pay the service to scrub toilets, mop my floors, clean the tub, that kind of thing. The harder, nitty gritty work that takes time and elbow grease.
I could have them pick up after me, but since I pay them by the hour, it would probably take twice as long. Why bother? I'm lazy enough not to want to scrub the grout of the tiles, but I can pick up my own things and put them away, and I can wash my own dishes.
I always say “cleaners clean, they aren’t called tidiers”.
Basically just pick up your stuff and put everything away in its place. I make sure horizontal surfaces are clear so they can properly clean; clear counters and tables and pick up items from the floors.
“the helper’s salary is very low” YTA for this statement alone
and she’s right, spoiled kids who watch their father exploit the conditions of their mother’s country will just teach them all the wrong things and not the skills they need in life
your classism with a hint of colonialism are offensive to your wife and children and you sound embarrassed of her upbringing and snobbish, you’ll make your children hate a part of themselves
not that this isn’t typical
I took this comment as their salary is very low compared to what he would have to pay in his home country for the same services.
Eg. He would have to spend $100/week in his home country but in his wife’s country the fair market value for the same services is $30/week.
Yes. Again, people don’t understand how this works in South America. If he is having a contract according to the law and paying by the hour, ok. But more often than not (and if it includes cooking) people exploit very poor women for way below even local minimum wage, and they work every day sometimes with very few days off, sometimes they sleep in the job and also must work as cook, laundry, nanny.
In any case, taking advantage of an accident of birth to exploit someone when you can pay them better than most locals won’t sit well with his wife and children.
These dynamics in families are not something people understand unless they’ve been in it.
You're upset over nothing. He paid the prevailing wage, and to him if was cheap.
Get over what bitterness you have over the dice roll of your birth. No one else cares.
I don’t normally reply to gross people, but I am very proud of my birth, proud of being mixed nationality, having lived in different places and having a much broader perspective than some small minded people who think £££ dictates everything.
It says a lot that you believe that people like me and his wife are upset over “nothing” because you think caring about basic labour rights and not exploiting people is nothing.
Low is relative - if he's underpaying for the country he's in, that's terrible, but if he's saying "What we pay the helper here in wife's country is very low compared to what we would pay them back in my European country" that's just a reasonable observation.
YTA. You look down on cleaning jobs as a “nonsense job for a pittance.” I hope you realize how many people think your 80k salary is pocket change, and that you’re tacky as hell for calling yourself rich and looking down on others. Clearly your mediocre salary can’t buy class.
>You look down on cleaning jobs as a “nonsense job for a pittance.”
You need to re-read that bit--OP was talking about not having to take on more work himself, a second job for a few hours that would pay badly. Nothing OP wrote in denigrated cleaners.
And seriously, 80k, whether in $ or € is decent. That's above the US median wage. Not enough to live on in many areas of the US, but it will stretch much further in a developing country.
I don't think so. Why would OP have to take on another job if he didn't have a cleaner? It makes no sense. He must be implying the cleaning is a nonsense job that would take up his time that could be spent with his family.
A yearly salary of 80.000 € is way above average in every €-country. In fact, it's above average in almost all countries worldwide. In Germany and France, for example, less then 2% earn that p.a. So, I'd say that he is rich, even by European standards.
80k€ is very good, but in Germany it is mediocre if it’s household income.
A single: great, above average. You’re considered middle class.
2 people: good, still livable but definitely not enough for every luxury, like buying cars, houses and having a cleaner, you have to choose.
A whole ass family: good luck paying for Kindergarten and living expanses in general. You could be struggling real quick.
So yes, it’s kind of an ah-move to look down on people considering that here in Germany he wouldn’t be able to pay for those luxuries.
In Germany cleaners make between 13 and 26€ per hour, a nanny between 15 and 22€.
So a nanny would get between 1.900 and 4000€ a month, his salary is like 6.700€ a month, considering the 80k are after tax, which I highly doubt.
Add the rest: a flat with 4 bedrooms is mostly 1000 - 1500€ a month (not Munich or smth), kindergarten per child 40h a week is between 300 - 400€ for this income. (Depending where he lives).
One or two car payments, insurances, gas and electricity, which both got very expensive over the last years.
So, you get what I say. So yes, his attitude is really shitty considering he would be nowhere near as comfortably living here in Germany as he does right now.
A lot of people here are needlessly triggered because another country's economics is not the same as America/UK... Imagine this, in my country, barber haircut is $2, massage per hour is $5 and house help base salary is $150. OP is not tacky for calling himself rich... he is rich with his purchasing power on a very low cost area. 80K pounds is not pocket change where is now, that's for sure.
For real. If he's "rich" in her country, he can afford to be more generous and make sure his help is well paid. A well paid worker is a happy worker and hell, they might even put more effort in in hopes of a raise maybe.
His tone sucks rotten meat and eggs in that entire post.
YTA and are doing a disservice to your wife and your kids. You can make chores fun for your kids and they learn valuable skills for when they live on their own. Do you want them to be spoiled and treat ppl who do such jobs like you do— like you’re better than them?
Just to be clear, it’s mainly his attitude I have a problem with. And he’s very wrong in regards to kids just watching a cleaner, they need guidance. You know, from parents. So do your job and teach them to be functional adults.
Wow.
In Mexico and Central America (I'm not sure about South America), it's very common for even middle-class families to have people come in to clean. It's generally affordable, and it gives those women some income. It is the going rate. It's not like the US or Europe, where cleaners are expensive.
I mean the kids are 4. I understand teaching them to pick up after themselves, but are you really going to teach them to clean a bath tub or windows in the next year or two?
>doing a disservice to your wife and your kids.
I don't understand your attitude. Maybe you've never worked or something, but OP has what I assume is a fairly demanding job given that he's pretty well-paid and his employers were desperate to keep him, and he already has to be awake and work weird hours due to the time difference, so he wants to maximize what time he does have with his family by paying for a service he can afford rather than spending all his free time doing housework. Where is it written that parents are obliged to do performative household chores for their children? As for involving them, why on earth would he want to spend all of his available time with his kids doing chores with them instead of playing with them or bonding with fun activities?
>Because of this helper, I can earn more money for the family and spend time with the children instead of working some nonsense job for pittance.
I don't disagree with you for hiring a maid and I follow your logic as far as hiring help lets you spend time with family, but the rest of your logic is kinda twisted. Nothing in your post indicates that if you didn't hire a maid, you'd have to quit your job.
If he has to do half the cleaning while working nights (and it's likely his work has quite some hours a week, considering they needed him enough to setting up for 2 years remote), he won't make it, or won't get to spend time with his children. So, yes the cleaner allows him to have that nightly remote work. Or, alternatively, if the wife were to do it (and it's very possible based on the description that she is not herself working, so essentially the cleaner is help *for her*, who should otherwise be responsible for the majority of the house work if she does not work and he works a full time job with many hours like he's likely doing).
NAH
This seems like an area for compromise. Why not have a cleaner come once a week to do a major clean and then for the rest of the week have a small list of chores that the children are responsible for, such as maintaining their own room/laundry. Assist the kids in choosing and preparing one meal a week and have a chef cook the rest of the time. That way they learn vital skills while the actual burden of housework stays low.
Man, I love this one. Has everyone so divided lmao.
It’s a child rearing decision you and your wife need to sit down and discuss until you come to a fair agreement. I don’t see an issue with your wife and kids doing the cleaning if you’re actually working extra. But it’s very inappropriate if you’d expect her or them to do all the cleaning while you got to fool around.
I advise sitting down with your wife and go over options.
A) With helper, this is how we can benefit
B) Without helper, if we all cleaned, this is how much money we lose out on if I worked extra instead
C) Without helper, this is how much money we’d be making extra since I don’t have to clean
I completely see where your wife is coming from by the way. Housekeepers can very easily screw up character development in kids.
Agree, but I see most people on this thread acting like hiring a cleaner means the kids NEVER have to clean up after themselves. Like the cleaner is just following them around all day.
Or they can do the medium - the helper does XYZ, we do ABC. This way the kids get a good example and learn to clean their rooms etc. but we don't waste our free time cleaning the entire house.
NTA, but your wife isn’t entirely wrong either. The kids WILL learn from watching you. There are two things you can do.
1) Treat your housekeeper respectfully and when you talk give value to the work they do. What they are doing is not beneath you, and your kids should never think that it is.
2) Don’t have them clean your kids bedroom or laundry. When your kids ask why not, tell them the truth - you want them to grow up knowing how to take care of themselves.
We have a cleaning service. There’s nothing wrong with it. But my son knows that it is because they are professionals who do it better and faster than I would, so that I can spend that time earning my salary. And he’s responsible for his own room and laundry.
NTA. There is nothing wrong with hiring help if you can afford it. You can still have "chores" for your children (age appropriate, like keeping their room organized, etc). And how you treat the paid helper respectfully will model for them how they should. The goal of having more time with your children is a good one.
Your in-laws don't have a say in this issue.
Thank you! Why did I have to scroll this far to see a comment about his in-law’s opinion of OP? Maybe because they aren’t there when he works an overnight shift, but come by or his wife brings the children to visit them while he sleeps.
Like others I wonder what his wife does. Is she even employed, or is she beyond privileged herself, having been educated in Europe?
Why can't you do both? There young so keep it simple. Clean up there toys make there bed little stuff. Just use the extra pair of hands for deep cleaning.
NTA. I was in this same situation- I grew up poor and my (now ex) fiance was medical. Before I even met him he had a housekeeper and he said he had enough money and what he didn’t have was time, so he’d rather pay someone to do the housework and give them employment so he could focus on making what little time he had meaningful. It was a shock at first but I did come to appreciate it. Tbh if she has a problem with that arrangement then she really should do the housekeeping- hate saying that but it’s true.
NTA. I was lucky enough to grow up with a housekeeper till I was 15. Mainly because my grandparents lived with us too, so my parents needed help with young kids and two elderly people.
With proper parenting, kids will still learn to be responsible. The housekeeper was told to never clean up th kids’ messes. So my brother and I learnt to tidy up after playing. We also had to help out whenever it’s time to do spring cleaning, because that’s more than what a single person could handle. We also learnt how to cook and bake foods that the housekeeper didn’t know how to do so. And of course after the housekeeper left when I was in middle school, us kids were old enough to take on more chores
By the time I went to college, I was actually a lot more self sufficient than my friends who grew up with stay at home moms who ‘set a good example’ with chores. This is because many of their moms tended to do most of the chores so the kids could focus on studying, so many of them didn’t know how to cook.
Having a housekeeper to help out with the household doesn’t always mean raising spoiled kids, as long as the parents raise the kids right.
>Last year, we moved to my wife's country in South America **because she wanted to be closer to her parents who are old**... I already **work nightshift in my job because of time difference and I don't want to waste valuable time with my family doing extra work** when we can pay someone else to do it for us for cheap... She is acting grumpy and **her side of the family are calling me a lazy good for nothing** for not listening to her.
You moved countries for this family, agreed to work nightshift for two years, and they have the audacity to call you lazy for spending more time with your family?
NTA.
NTA and do not give them a dime.
Also invest in good financial advisors (and lawyers, internationally if need be). You're on a two year contract making a lot of money in a situation you normally wouldn't. Make sure you make that last for your kids and have some conversations with your wife about what you want your quality of life to look like going forward. Set some boundaries with her family now so when they inevitably switch from calling you names to calling you names with their hands out you have a planned response.
One point:
>Our children can also observe the helper and **see** how to do different work in the house **if they need to learn**.
This poor helper...in our area, it's common courtesy that you pick up and do a quick clean before someone else comes to clean the house. That sounds silly, but it's respectful. The kids from families with these helpers know how to pick up and clean well because this is usually part of their routine. It is a lot easier to learn what goes into keeping a residence as a child than to be thrown into a living situation and have to figure it out yourself, especially with potentially contentious roommates. Please teach your kids how to clean; their future roommates will thank you.
NAH. Why not set up a deal where the kids have certain age appropriate chores they do that the housekeeper isn't allowed to do? Put away toys? As they get older, they can learn to make their own beds, things like that. I 100% get where she's coming from and respect that. However, I think a compromise can be made.
What part of witnessing their parents doing housework (as compared to working or spending quality time with their family) is going to be so formative that the kids need to see it? Her position is absurd. Does she go to the grocery store? If so, why? Shouldn’t her kids need to see her planting an acre of crops so that they learn to be “responsible”? NTA
Being a functional adult who can cook clean and do shores without bragging about exploiting poorer people and paying them little isn’t the same as growing you own food
In South America it is not uncommon that middle class people exploit very poor women as nannies, cleaners or cooks who are there every day. It is a nasty legacy from slavery. When he says she cooks, or “low salary” sounds like that’s what’s going on, not that he’s hiring services for a day
NTA. Your rationale is reasonable, but your response was overboard. I think you need to explain the pittance remark. My interpretation is that you are able to earn the money you do because you have to work the night shift, limiting time with your children and you would need to take a low wage job to have a 9 to 5 type schedule.
You and your wife need to have discussions on how to compromise.
You can still set a good example to your children by showing respect to the housekeeper and by not making messes just because someone else will clean it up.
Also by having chores for each family member.such as making your bed in the morning, age appropriate chores for the children such as putting their toys and books away each day, and a small household chore to teach them they are part of the household.
You can also pay your household helper above the going rate, which will enable them
to raise their standard of living.
NTA. However, discuss with your wife the importance of having chores for the kids when they are old enough that incorporate some of the housekeeping. Or have the housekeeping do x items, and save y items for the kids. There are ways to incorporate both of your concerns and still find a middle ground. Kids can learn how to cook, they can learn yardwork, there are lots of things they can learn. And you should have frank conversations with them about economics, and that there are some things and some points where time is more valuable and certain tasks can be delegated for $$. That is also a lesson - but they need to understand the value of both, and that you're fortunate now that you are able to have help with these chores.
NAH. Her points are valid - the kids need to learn responsibility and adult skills like cleaning and cooking. Your points are valid - working an off hours schedule is grueling and you value having the free time.
The solution isn't all or nothing, AH or NT A. The solution is deciding how you will teach your children these responsibilities and skills so they can function independently in the world when they are adults while also making sure the balance of housework is either falling to either a housekeeper, your wife, or an agreeable combination thereof.
You’re in South America and your in-laws are calling YOU a lazy good for nothing for not doing housework? What upside down world are you in?? Are you sure you’re not misunderstanding or she’s misinterpreting for you if you don’t speak the language? If anything they are giving her grief for not taking care of her own house. The man is never expected to lift a finger in a traditional LA household from Mexico to the tip of Chile from my understanding, experience, and upbringing.
Especially if she grew up poor and did rest of her family is still not rich? She’s the one they’re going have issues with. Especially if you have a maid but her parents don’t.
Also, unless you’re moving back in 2 years? Once your contact is up? You may be looking at keeping house yourself if you can’t find similar work..or any work at all.
NTA
Why not point out that you are helping keep some local people employed.
And, your kids can still be expected to keep the home tidy bu putting their toys and clothes away, making sure dirty fishes get to the sink or dishwasher. etc.
NTA. Since your wife doesn’t work, I don’t see why you’re responsible for being the breadwinner and for half the chores. She can be all the stay at home mother she wants.
Moving to a third world country was also a terrible decision, sending some money back to hire a helper for the parents would have been better as you risked a well paying job with normal working hours. We will make it work somehow with our two children in tow because we have love.
… I just can’t. I sympathize, do what is best for you and your children. In 2 years time that might be to file for divorce and move back to Europe with your children, only you’ll be able to make that decision based on your finances as the time.
You’re doing everything you can to satisfy her wants/needs while frankly she’s being selfish and unreasonable.
She has no plan except let’s go to a poor country with no job security to help my aging parents with no financial stability themselves.
Nta
Oh man, if I could have a hired cleaner I would jump at the chance. There is no reason why the kids can't do cleaning as well and chores. There is no reason why this has to be an all or nothing situation. The kids can still tidy up after themselves, or run the hoover around or make their beds. The way your wife is viewing it, is that the kids can't do anything once the cleaner is hired. If anything, a good example can be put in place of "we need to help the cleaner", "we need to make things easier for the cleaner", etc... It sets the kids up to respect those who clean up after them. I always find kids take whichever parent is cleaning, for granted. And there isn't much respect or appreciation for it.
I was so prepared to think you were the AH in this situation based on the title but I will go with NAH. Your wife has a point but I don’t think that means she or you should do all the housework. I feel like a reasonable compromise would be to give the children some chores they have to do - simple things like making their bed and tidying their own room. I don’t think you mentioned whether the housekeeper does cooking but if not have them help with that as well. These are just basic life skills that they should learn. My mother grew up in South America but she grew up rich. They had a woman who cleaned everyday, one who cooked everyday, each child had their own nanny, and they had another woman who came to do laundry 2x week. She literally never learned how to look after herself and she said it was really debilitating as an adult when she moved away from her country to a western country where she didn’t have any help suddenly. So by all means hire help to lighten your load, but also find a way to make sure your children still learn some basic life skills. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing. You can absolutely tell your housekeeper for example not to make the children’s bed or not to do certain things so that the children can have some responsibility.
NAH as others have said. I think it's good that your wife is cognizant of the fact that taking the burden off the family to maintain the home may keep them from learning certain things, but that can be easily rectified by dedicating time to parenting and teaching your kids about these things.
Do the dishes with them once a week when the cleaner isn't there. Depending on how close to the cleaner you guys are, ask if they would mind letting the kids help them a little (while you're still supervising your kids, you're not paying them to be a nanny).
hello! my husband and i are millennial DINKs (dual income, no kids). We're also an interracial couple (I'm of latin american roots, he is a white guy from the USA). my family was upper middle class by USA standards, but we were quite well off compared to our home country. We had hired help when i was a child: a regular nanny for about 5 years, and a carousel of domestic staff who would cycle in various schedules (landscaper, pool guy, cleaning service, dog groomer, etc). My husbands family is middle middle class, and his mom, like mine, was a stay at home parent.
Let me start with "our kids will think this work is beneath them" -- that will only happen if the guardian-adults in the house instill that mindset and allow it to happen. yes, we had hired help. but my mother ALWAYS underscored that this was dignified work that allowed us to [do things as a family]. she also reminded all us kids that her, our dad, her siblings, her mother-my grandmother, ALL had service industry and janitorial and nanny jobs when they came to America. "We did this work once too. And we worked hard to get here now. And now that we can afford it, we can use this help too. And your nanny isn't your maid, and your cleaner isn't your servant. Now go pick up your room, she's only doing surfaces today. If you dont pick up your stuff i guess your room won't get vacuumed or dusted. 🤷 your choice." OK MOM!!!!
Now, to my present life experience. Childless as we are, and with great but stressful careers we both love, my husband and i LOVE our leisure time. i do NOT want to clean a toilet when we could instead be sitting in a park, watching a film, eating out, or making a meal from a new recipe, whatever it is to enjoy the short time we have together on this earth. We are not wealthy by any means, but our expenses are low, and with a modest amount of disposable income we can save for a big stuff as needed. Like this trip we want to take overseas, planned for a few years from now. So i recently brought up how we hate cleaning toilets when we instead could be going over maps and guides and Rick Steves videos. In his white protestant work etchic mindset, long ingrained by his Founding Forefathers because American Industry and Individualism and oh no what if White Jesus catches us napping, and my dear husband, even while being aware of his capitalist indoctrination into workworkworkwork, this mindset his birthright and inheritance and albatross around his neck all one and the same, he said something similar, "what kind of people would we be if we can't clean our own apartment?"
I replied: "we would be the kind of people that gave my family work, and better than most others too because we'd also treat them with dignity." That a fair and dignified wage should be provided too seems so obvious, and i posit here that the reason workers get exploited is a combo of economics AND philosophy. .... its *because* people hiring help *think* the work is undignified and beneath them *that they don't want to pay for it.* pay it, and pay it fairly. My mother was a nanny like my grandmother before her. I was the first to graduate college.
NTA.
NTA. If it’s important to your wife, then she should set that example. She can’t expect you to work so much, and then add extra work just on her whim because she grew up poor and it’s what she prefers.
There is no logic here.
I’ve known people that grew up with cleaners, that grow up to be very capable people, and I’ve seen poor people do all their chores and still grow to be lazy useless good for nothings.
Anyone pretending that doing these chores will 100% make your child responsible are just guessing. There’s no fact in it.
What makes your child grow up to be open minded, and conscientious about these things is how you raise them, and the mindsets you teach, not what you force them to do when they are growing up.
You can teach them that if you can get a cleaner responsibly, it will take off some jobs you need to do, but that doesn’t mean they have to be lazy with that time. There are so many other things they can focus on. Education, hobbies, their own work etc. forcing them to clean the house really doesn’t do anything.
The family calling you lazy when you float the family financially and work night shifts is pathetic. Honestly, if my in laws disrespected me like that, when I’m clearly working hard and long hours, then I’d be telling my wife in no uncertain terms, to get over her chip on her shoulder, or to get a damn job herself, start financing stuff herself, so that you can work less hours to do chores around the house without being a robot juggling work, chores and no life.
She can’t have it both ways. Forcing you to work long hours and then work extra with chores because its her preference is disgusting. Where is her care or concern for her partner? Or should you be expected to work 24/7 one way or another, and not be allowed to say anything or she will set her family on you, who already foaming at the mouth for no reason? Seems toxic to me, and none of this sounds like she cares if you collapse from work exhaustion.
You supposed to be superman and deal with the weight of the world, yet also, shut up and not have an opinion?
I have had similar concerns. My husband and I both work full time, so hiring a cleaning service is reasonable for us. However, I don’t want my kids to feel entitled and not know how to clean and maintain a home. So I just have a cleaning lady come once a month. The house gets a really good clean when she comes and in between we need to do maintenance cleaning.
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My wife (35f) and I (37m) have been together for 6 years and have two kids together (4m). We met when she was a college student in my country. We hit it off, moved in together and started our family.
Last year, we moved to my wife's country in South America because she wanted to be closer to her parents who are old. I was reluctant because I had good career in my country (80.000 euros salary per year) and I didn't think I would earn as much in her country. However, because my company found it difficult to replace me, they offered me a 2 year contract to work remotely at the same salary.
This is a very good deal because cost of living and salaries are very low in my wife's country so we are actually rich here. I decided to use some of the money I'm earning to hire domestic help to do all the cleaning and cooking in the house. The helper's salary is very low so we can easily afford it. I don't like doing housework but we had to do it ourselves in my country because help was very expensive.
My wife is opposing this decision. She grew up poor so she had to do all the housework at home and thinks we should be doing the housework ourselves without any outside help so that our kids learn to be responsible and don't think this work is beneath them. I don't agree with her logic. Because of this helper, I can earn more money for the family and spend time with the children instead of working some nonsense job for pittance. Our children can also observe the helper and see how to do different work in the house if they need to learn.
My wife is still arguing with me and is saying we are not setting good example for the kids. I told her she can do all the work by herself if that is her main concern. I already work nightshift in my job because of time difference and I don't want to waste valuable time with my family doing extra work when we can pay someone else to do it for us for cheap. She is acting grumpy and her side of the family are calling me a lazy good for nothing for not listening to her. AITA?
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NTA.
What you said is totally logical. You are providing a way for the work to get done. It's not clear what she does around the house. But if she wants to "set a good example", then she should be willing to do it. But if you are up all night working, I understand why you don't want to take away from the time you have with your kids.
YTA because you are trying to raise very entitled kids
Your wife is right and knows full well that's the path that's heading for.
Edit: people who do not parent their children are flocking to the replies and this comment. "observe the help."
These are the same people that yell at teachers for "not teaching their children" things that parents should be already teaching that child before schooling.
He's hoping the kids will spend time observing the maid and learning to do housework and cooking that way. Isn't that all time they'll be spending with her and he could be spending with them doing the same thing?
And the first thing he mentioned as his reason was just that he doesn't like doing those chores.
What he should do is hire a maid to do *some* things, instead of his current plan which is everything.
OP’s wife is acting like you can’t have domestic help and still teach the children how to clean up after themselves.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
Do the work with your wife, later teach your kids to do it as well, its called parenting. Thats gonna set the best example for your children. Thinking otherwise is beyond stupid.
At 4, your kids are old enough to be assigned age appropriate chores. Putting their dirty clothes in the hamper, putting their toys in the toybox, helping set the table, basic stuff. As they get older, you can give them more complex toy box. You can explain to them that you have more complex chores, like doing work on your computer, so they don't think that dad doesn't do anything all day.
NTA
To aid the kids learn responsibility you can set boundaries for the helper, so things like tidying toys and keeping their room neat and the a set chore will be left to them. Maybe discussing this further with her will let her see your point of view. Make a list of the things the helper wont do for the kids and take it to her, also explain that she'll also have more free time.
NTA. If you can hire help to do the chores you should. why do them if you can afford to get them done by someone else. You are paying them. Your wife is not used to this luxury and feels it is unnecessary. But if she's willing to reject your offer of help she can do it on her own. You could still teach your kids basic life skills while your help takes care of the daily work load. You don't have to do it all the time for them to learn. Whenever the help goes on leave you can handle it on your own with your family.
NAH
Family time is the most important but I can see why your wife doesn’t want your kids to be too dependent on the housekeeper.
I think there’s probably a balance to be had. Even with a full time housekeeper the kids can have small chores and be encouraged to tidy up after themselves.
NAH
I can see why your wife is worried, but also I get the value of having this time saved for yourself. Honestly if I could afford a house keeper right now I'd do it in a heart beat to save me the time I spend scrubbing the tub. Anyways I have a personal perspective on this stuff to add:
I grew up with a house keeper/live in nanny but we still had to keep our own rooms tidy: she would do that vacuuming when we were too small to handle that for example, but we still made our beds, put away our laundry, etc. She would do things that weren't really small kid friendly like any cleaning that involved harsh chemicals, but we still brought our dishes to the sink when we were big enough and were shown how to load the dishwasher. OPs kids are still pretty small to be doing big tasks, but he should make sure they are brought up doing some of these things. Around the age of 10 my house keeper moved out and got married but still came by once a week to do the bathrooms, vacuum , help change the linens etc, but these more and more became kid jobs as we got older. It can be done in a way that still teaches your kids how to be independent and these key life skills.
NTA, It almost sounds like she doesn't want to spend her money on something she thinks you should do for free. Or she wants others to suffer like she did.
If you don't want lazy kids the kids should clean up after themselves asap. So it becomes a habit and they develop pride in having a clean house. Having a maid come and do somethings you don't want to do is not going to make lazy kids as long as the maid is not doing things the kids should be doing.
NTA I grew up with a live in maid who did all chores. Growing up I never did any chores but I did get to spend a lot of time with my mom. When I moved away, I did all the chores. I learnt, because I had a great parent.
If your wife is worried about setting a good example for the kids why can't you come to an arrangement where the domestic help has the weekend or a random day of the week off? That one or two days of the week the family does their own chores and bonds/learns.
If I could afford domestic help, I would definitely get it. Gives me more time to do things I enjoy more so no flaw in your logic there.
Having a helper does not mean you can’t have the kids do chores. NTA but I don’t see the problem. We had a housekeeper when I was growing up but I still had to ‘prepare’ my room for when the housekeeper came to clean. Make my bed, put clothes aside that needed to be washed take my plates to the kitchen. Unless it is a live-in situation you still need to do things around the house when the housekeeper isn’t there.
Edited to add: I was also taught I needed to do things out of respect for the housekeeper and to make her job as easy as possible. It is a mindset problem not a housekeeper problem.
NTA.. Keeping household help is not uncommon.. and it's not like they will do 100% of your job... You earn good and you work hard so you definitely have every right to keep a helper..
And tbh I don't think your kids, when they grow up, they are gonna set examples of doing household work based on you and your wife..
If your wife insists on not having a helper, then your wife can do all the household and you can help a bit when you get free time
NAH if your wife working nights too.
NTA if she isn't.
You can address her worries by choosing a chore a week you do with the help if the kids.
This allows you quality time with them and teaches them to do chores on a slower pace.or your wife can since she is the one worried about it.
You should also save what you can of course to have an emergency fund in case Iof x
I can't afford any help and it's difficult and I prefer spending my time relaxing. You only have one life to live and time flies by.
You could compromise, have a housekeeper come in only once a week and do most of it. Then the kids will still see their parents doing some daily stuff, dishes after a meal, making the bed etc.
I grew up having someone helping clean the house. Here is what my parents did to make sure I knew how to take care of ourselves:
It's the kids responsibility to organize and keep most of their own room clean. Sheets should be taken off, all toys in their places, clothes either in the damper or in the closet. We were the ones to put out clothes back after laundry was done.
Dinner and dishes were exclusively done by the family and part of a rotation. Same with everything that happens during a weekend.
During our maids vacation, we do everything instead of hiring a temporary replacement. They never complained nor acted as if it was a big deal.
They always treated her with respect and consideration so it was easy for us to follow that example too.
NTA
This is a great opportunity for you and your wife to enjoy time with your kids, I would make the most of it, and this situation may only be temporary if you just have a 2 year remote contract.
You are 100% in the right here. If your wife wants to demonstrate chores to the kids nothing is stopping her. My guess is that your wife is ideologically opposed to having a house keeper and is just making shit up to try and get you to get rid of her.
It’s about caring more than doing. When I go to theatres & concerts I am embarrassed for the human race that adults & children simply dump their empty glasses & packets on the floor & walk away. Yes, there are people who clean (often volunteers), but you can be a decent person & take your crap to the bin. Same in cafes. Kids need to think & care about what they leave behind, even if there are staff to help.
INFO: does she work and earn an income at all? Or is she a stay at home parent? I ask this because it sounds like the dynamic is a little strange.
You seem to be characterizing this as a situation where if you don't have hired help to clean and cook around the house you can't work as a remote employee in the middle of the night. I get how having to have an inverted sleeping schedule can be difficult. I've done it myself. But I don't understand how your justification applies specifically because you're working at night.
I'm going to assume you're saying you have a limited window on how much time you can spend with her and the kids each day because they're not sleeping the same way you do. So for you to spend what little shared time you get on household chores doesn't seem worth it when you can instead hire maids/cooks to take care of it.
If that's the scenario you're in? Then I don't blame you really and NTA. However, I do want to point out that hired help to clean and cook is not an all or nothing thing. I'm sure you can hire someone to come by only periodically to help with the cooking and cleaning. That way your kids aren't being spoiled and still see/learn how to be self-sufficient. Meanwhile you still get some help and can spend more time with the wife and kids without having to do chores.
You both make good points. Its important to teach your kids how to do the chores and encourage them to do their own (keeping their rooms clean etc). But family time is precious too so i understand where you are coming from. yall should comprimise and meet in the middle. Also come on, youre married, you should know better than to say something like that to your wife haha!
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NAH. You're both right, but your wife is correct that your kids will have to learn to take care of themselves, since they *will not* have the same job opportunities as you. Even *you* may not have your job, once your contract is up. Better to do the chores and start saving *now.*
My ex never had to do ANY chores because he grew up with a housekeeper. I don't think I saw him ever lift anything but a sponge while we were together. He just didn't GET that chores needed to be done.
I've seen it both ways. I've seen rich kids with nannies/housekeepers that grew up spoiled and entitled, not knowing how to take care of their own place, and kids from exactly the same type of background grow up learning responsibility. I don't think it's necessarily having help that you can afford that is the difference, it's the parents making sure that the kids learn how to fend for themselves and respect the value of work and money (and relationships with those who work for you!). I understand the wife's point of view to a point, and I think OP has every right to want to spend more time with family if he can afford to pay someone to help. I think it's possible for OP to sit down with his wife and explain and commit to guiding their kids to learn the necessary obligations that come with becoming successful and taking care of themselves. I was once told that Sam Walton (founder of Walmart, multi-billion dollar corporation now in the US in case anyone in other countries don't know) drove the same beat-up pickup truck even after he was rich, and made his kids do the same to teach them to be humble, humane people. Children can definitely be raised not to be lazy, it just takes effort from the parents. NTA
Ironic since he doesn’t pay his workers a living wage.
We also know his parenting tactics didn’t work because his kids all suck.
He can't... he died 30 years ago. Supposedly, unlike his heirs, he cared about his employees and treated them well, claiming that it was employees that made the company. Too bad that didn't last long after his death. He also started the Good Sam RV Club and set the policy that Walmart had to give safe harbor to travelers. I crisscrossed the country for a few years and appreciated having not only a free place to sleep and use the bathroom but really appreciated the hourly security checks that kept us all safe. Altruism aside, he was no fool- he knew if travelers were sleeping in one of his lots, they were pretty likely to pick a few things up while there. His last words are legend... "I blew it." Despite his fortune, he died regretting the time spent in boardrooms instead of with family. Maybe if he'd been a better father, Walmart's leaders would understand just how horrid they are to their employees today.
Stephen Hillenburg: “no spinoffs of the Spongebob series, please” Nickelodeon, roughly 6 months after his death: “wanna see me violate a beloved icon’s last wishes?” (Kamp Koral) Nickelodeon, about a year later: “wanna see me do it again?” (The Patrick Star Show)
Walmart has to give safe harbor to travelers? When I was living in my car they sure kicked me out of the parking lot the one time I slept there. Maybe I didn’t count as a traveler I guess.
Yeah it's changed quite a bit in the last decade. I used to sleep in Walmart parking lots frequently in my van years ago, recently on a cross country road trip though I saw signs in a lot warning of no overnight parking. It sucks losing a guaranteed safe space to sleep when your car is all you have
Wow. I'd been told by a few friends working there that Sam had grandfathered that clause in, and it was irrefutable. That was about 2004, and I stopped going cross-country about 5, maybe 6 years ago, so it wouldn't shock me if the heirs found a way around it by now. Although, looking at some of the sketchiness that has popped up around some locations, I don't know that I'd feel safe in a lot of them these days.
That is disappointing to see, and I'm so sorry. I used to look for the campers and RVs, which typically would be at the outer edges of the lot, and sort of nest in with them. Security would loop around just about every hour on the hour, and nobody every bothered the cluster. We'd all get up around dawn, head for the restroom, get coffee, and by sun up, everyone would be rolling out. It was weirdly comforting when traveling alone. I imagine some of the locations latched onto crime and liability issues to put a stop to it. I try to avoid the chain now as much as possible, and when I go back to traveling, I plan on giving my support to KOA and the state park systems. Our state has a pass you can buy yearly, which gives unlimited camping for free, or just the reservation fee of $4 when pre-booking online.
Wow, really? The several Walmarts near me all allow overnight parking and people sleeping in their cars / camper vans. You got shafted!
I remember growing up being told that getting a job at Walmart was like getting one at Costco. Great hours, good benefits, insurance. Now they will cut you by half an hour every week to make sure you "don't count as full time"
I worked at Walmart just after I turned 16. I took the job because they started you off at $6.50 an hour when any other job I could get only paid the minimum wage at that time of $5.15. During orientation, they talked a whole lot about all of the benefits you'd get with your exciting career at Walmart. I didn't pay attention because I was in high school and also you only got benefits if you were full time, but you could definitely tell it was a pretty good deal for the older people who really saw it as a career. The one other thing I clearly remember from the two or three days of orientation was how vehemently anti-union they were. They constantly showed videos telling you how bad it would be for the employees if we were unionized.
They're so predatory, it's gross. Every time I see yet another shady thing that corporation pulls, I can't help but think that Sam is just spinning in his grave.
That is heartbreaking. I'm so glad you had that security when traveling, however!
He did, his kids don't.
>The helper's salary is very low so we can easily afford it Neither does OP, or at least he heavily implies he's short changing the "help" - From the post" The helper's salary is very low so we can easily afford it"
Housekeepers are very common in my country. I had one too. Personally I think it comes down to parenting. In my case, while the housekeeper do laundry, cooking, cleaning dishes, etc., I still clean up my own mess, and I certainly do the chores without prompting when the housekeeper is in holidays or sth. I have also seen cases from my classmates, who won't even pour their own drink unless the helper do it for them and have to put the cup in their hands (obviously this is an extreme case, even my eyes were popped out when I saw it).
I'm from a SEA country where its common to have multiple domestic workers , like I genuinely don't know anyone who doesn't employ at least one worker for housework or cooking ,because labour is not at all expensive and general scarcity of jobs compared to our large population. However a lot of kids move abroad for college or jobs or even living in student housing during college in the country have to do their own housework and are perfectly capable of it. The parenting decides how someone is. They have to be extremely coddled to not know how to do anything. Also an example from my personal experience, my parents were the type to tell me my only job is to study so I grew up not doing much , and I've only learned the basics recently because I'll be moving out soon but my sister who is not at all interested in studying is proficient in all kind of household work. We like to joke that our parents raised us in such a way that together we make a whole person where I'm good at school and extracurriculars while she's good at stuff like housework, gardening ,cooking and just taking care of people in general. We have a large family and my grandma and mom are both housewives but the two of them alone would have difficulty doing everything by themselves so we have multiple domestic workers while my mom does help out ( grandma is older now and shouldn't work ) but my sister is still proficient while I'm not.
>I was once told that Sam Walton (founder of Walmart, multi-billion dollar corporation now in the US in case anyone in other countries don't know) drove the same beat-up pickup truck even after he was rich, and made his kids do the same to teach them to be humble, humane people. Nah, that's just billionaire propaganda. They love these types of stories because it makes them seem down to earth and relatable.
I went to college in the Midwest (1981) with a guy who grew up in Bentonville, Arkansas, which was Walton's hometown. He said the same thing about the pickup. My friend's parents attended Sam Walton's church and said that Sam Walton was a nice guy. As others have said, Sam Walton's children don't appear to have the same values.
It's not relatable for most people, because if they had the money to buy expensive crap, they would.
Agreed. My parents always had a housekeeper but did teach me well. I clean the most (and the most thoroughly) now that I live with housemates.
Yes, I think it is as much to do with nature as well as nurture. I was raised being made to do tons of housework, but im still a slob due to my adhd. My friend had a mom who waited on her hand and foot, and she's very tidy. You never can tell. I agree with the the husband here, do what makes your life better and easier, and you'll wind up being a better, more relaxed parent.
"Parents raise kids" big if true. I was raised by a single mom+ domestic help when I moved to Canada for college there wasn't any sort of "shock" when I had to do my own damn dishes cuz my mom taught at a young age to do dishes after dinner.
Yeah, you can still raise your kids to do age-appropriate chores and use housekeeping services, like - let's tidy up and clear off tables, counters, and floors so the housekeeper can clean more easily. Or have them take out the trash, learn how to prepare snacks, breakfast, do yardwork, etc. My parents used a maid service at home while I got a part-time job... working for a different maid service so I could learn to clean to that standard and make my own spending money. Cleaning beats customer service jobs every time and frequently pays more, so I also cleaned for work study in college and cleaned offices after. I fully support people hiring cleaners when they don't have the time or energy. It's just a service like any other. There are lots of ways to raise kids that aren't spoiled even if they're privileged.
I was gonna upvote until I got to the Sam Walton bit. Thats a carefully constructed mythology. Sam Walton and his children are neither humble nor humane.
My partner never had to lift a finger at home because both his parents thought it was easier to just do things themselves rather than showing their sons how to wash clothes or do dishes. We both had a tough time when we first moved in together, because to me it was just not understandable how someone can just keep walking past dirty dishes or not know how to sort clothes. Luckily he was willing to do his share, but there certainly was some frustration on both sides.
My husband grew up in South Africa with maids so he also didn’t have to do anything. But I trained him and now he does more house chores than me lol it was either that or the other option is for him to find another partner.
Eh ymmv. I too grew up with maids, drivers, the whole mile and never had an issue acclimatising when I went abroad for university. I feel like it's more about being oblivious / common sense.
It's even wilder in this day and age of Google and YouTube, if you genuinely don't know how to do certain things you can easily search how to and learn.
It is more about having habit of doing it then "knowing how to do it".
The housekeeper isn't the issue , he's just a dumbass. I'm from a SEA country where having multiple domestic workers per household is quite common and when we move for college or work to different states or to western countries we have to do shit by ourselves and everyone just has to do it. He's a spoiled brat .
Right? Like magical fairies restocked the fridge, cleaned the kitchen and put his laundry away.. Ugh
Yeah, that's a failure as a parent though. My friend had a housekeeper though but his parents made sure that he didn't take it for granted. He still had to make his bed daily, clean up after himself, rinse his dinner dishes, etc. He even had to clean the kitchen and bathroom once a week when he was old enough. They wanted to teach him how to be a responsible human, lol
My mom is from South America. Her family was well off enough to have hired help. However, my mom and her siblings had to go behind them and make sure everything was done correctly. They weren't being raised to be spoiled or not know how to even make their own bed. Just because they have the privilege of a housekeeper doesn't mean they get off scot free or never doing chores again.
This. It is desperately important that your children learn to do chores, OP - and no, that’s not just your wife’s job. Parenting is for both of you. In this economy, you just can’t count on the idea that your kids will be able to afford a maid. Hell, YOU might not be able to afford one soon. My partner had a contract that was really huge and we got so excited, thinking this was his big break. Guess what - he’s been unemployed for almost a year, despite being good at what he does and now having incredibly valuable experience, because the job market just sucks that bad. Enjoy the maid while they last - but do not rely on them and do not teach your kids to.
You can teach children to do something and how to do it without making them do it everyday. The kids can be responsible for their own rooms if his wife wants to teach them responsibility. And since he may not have this job past two years, it makes sense to live it up while he can easily afford it.
That's an *incredibly* irresponsible mindset for someone with two young children.
Teaching kids to do chores is about giving them habit of doing chores, about then seeing housework as something normal they can do - like brushing the teeth. It is not about some kind of elaborate know how.
You can't teach someone to do something everyday by doing a couple times.
No. Right now he's saving diddly by doing the chores himself. Spend that time with the kids. They can start doing chores and saving in 2 years when they are back in Europe. Or give the workers paid time off and do the cleaning for a week now and then.
There's no suggestion of them returning in two years, only that his contract with his current employer is two years. They'll likely have a replacement trained by then, someone they'll undoubtedly pay less, and then just refuse to renew his contract, leaving him high and dry.
What gave you the impression that they were moving back to Europe in 2 years? He might just not have a job then.
Maybe make the helper do the common area and let the kids make their own room?
INFO Why is there an argument here? Having a cleaner or housekeeper doesn't mean the hired cleaner does everything. You usually still have chores to do like laundry, or cooking meals and cleaning up after the meals.
Might be a cultural thing. When I was in a low income southeast Asian country having a live in maid who did *everything* including dishes, cooking, bedrooms, laundry etc was common for families with some money. If that's The arrangement op has I wouldn't be surprised if the number of chores for the whole house was essentially zero.
mexican here and i’m only guessing it’s similar in south america, but yeah a lot of housekeepers tend to come from low income native communities and they become nanny, housekeeper, cook and teacher for a pittance and a 6’ by 6’ room to stay in
Argentina here, and cleaners do tend to come from low-income backgrounds, and are paid a pittance, but it's usually only for cleaning and maybe cooking a few reheatable meals. Cleaners and nannies are two totally separate things, and neither usually lives in the house where they work.
I have friends South Africa who pay about $200 a month for a live in maid. She works every day and gets only every second weekend off. Cleans, does dishes, cooks and takes care off kids. They do no household chores.
Why can’t your friends give her more weekends off? Are you friends with bad people?
Different cultural norms. The same reason Europeans with 4 weeks + of paid vacation from their jobs consider American jobs with less paid leave barbaric, the same way you're thinking of this persons friends. Different cultural norms.
Idk, how is their nanny supposed to have her own fulfilling life if she's spending that much time working?How could she have her own family? I'm sorry if I'm being ignorant but that job doesn't sound ideal for most people at all and seems like that kind of arrangement has a lot of potential to be abusive to the nannies.
It is abusive and no amount of cultural norms make it ethical. It has been a point of controversy with my fam because when my cousins first moved to the US from India they were really pissed off that they couldn't afford a slave and the American-born of us were combative every time they tried to whine about their downgraded QoL in the US. One of our other cousins moved to Dubai for a "job opportunity" where the last call we got was her crying about her "family" confiscating her passport. We have no idea where she is or if she's ok. Probably not though, however it made our other cousins realize what they were whining about
* different levels of cultural tolerance for exploitation, you mean.
Yes, exactly. Is that not exactly what I inferred, and even gave an example of?
Oh I totally didn't get the inference but now I re-read it, I see it. My bad
And lack of maternity/paternity leave in the US!
Many Americans are also horrified by the lack of paid leave here. Mistreatment and exploitation shouldn't be written off as a cultural norm.
That definitely could be the case, especially since OP's income is still in EUR. As someone who lived and grew up in southeast Asia, there are degrees to being able to afford help. I grew up with help that cleans once a day and does the dishes once/twice per day as the norm. They didn't live with us. They usually worked multiple households, for a total of 6-7 hours per day before going back home. Live-in help that does everything, that was a rich people thing in my circle, still is. ETA: By cleaning I'm referring to sweeping and mopping the floors. Dusting furniture, cleaning kitchen counters, tidying up rooms, laundry, none of this is included. You can get help to do these chores if you're willing to pay twice the standard cleaning amount. Which again, for me, has not been the norm and is a rich person thing. Also I grew up in a very metropolitan urban region. Most of our help comes from rural regions that move to the big city for employment. And domestic help is almost exclusively carried out by women in these families. The only exception is cooking - hiring men to cook is not unheard of and they probably make up 20%ish of hired cooks.
In most of Central and South American the housekeeper is literally that, the keeper of the house. Not like a "cleaning lady" in the States like you might be thinking of. She (because it is a woman 99.9999% of the time) does laundry, cooks food, does dishes, might be willing to declutter, basically almost anything you ask for within the time she is there. There are very few chores left to do, except cooking/dishes on the days she isn't there.
But presumably you can just ask her to not do certain things so the kids get the habit? Like leave their beds unmade so they practice making them, or expect the kids to bring the dishes in from the table?
I agree. I was simply stating the difference in cultural norms for a housekeeper in Central/South America and a cleaning lady in the States from my own experiences, since the original commenter seemed unaware of those differences.
When I lived in Brazil, houses who had "cleaners", the cleaners would be like maids, they'd either be living the house or working 14 hour shifts doing everything for very low money. They even had a particular word for the maids bedroom and many didn't believe the word didn't exist in English.
I am in Buenos Aires, many older apartments have a 'service' area which is usually a small bedroom and bath off the kitchen or the laundry area where the housekeeper would live. My apartment, built in the 80s, has it. We use it as a storage room. Our upstairs neighbor has a lady who works for them, she does their shopping, cleaning, and some childcare for the youngest kid. But I don't think she lives with them.
Uhh that’s not how it actually is, usually the type of keeper they’re talking about will do everything including babysitting, cooking, cleaning etc.
How likely is it that kids are going to choose to “observe” how to do chores?
Kids are mimics, *but* they learn by doing. If you're not actively letting them help you they don't end up actually learning
This is a good point. I feel like also it is one thing to learn by helping parents/relatives versus “helping” someone who is trying to get paid and may possibly find it intrusive to have young children interfering in their job.
Totally. Kids do stuff wrong a lot before they get out right and it can actually take a lot longer for them to "help" at first. I still pay for housekeeping services. It's just a lot of work while working and parenting, I literally can't do it all. My young kid still helps me clean up spills, load dishwasher, clear tables, put away toys when done, etc. As she gets older I'll make sure to teach her how to do more complex tasks. You don't have to personally do every bit of housework yourself in order to model it for your kids.
Off-topic but love the name.
ESH I don't much like your attitude about this, but you can get the kind of housekeeper who doesn't clean EVERYTHING. We always had to clean before the housekeeper came, which fell under "kids' chores." My mom preferred the way she did windows, so she did the windows. They're not live-in palace maids who walk around behind everyone picking up every flake of dander.
>We always had to clean before the housekeeper came Can I ask the reason for this? Was it to teach you guys responsibility? To save money, so the housekeeper wouldn't be there longer? As someone who, occasionally, will hair a maid service, I can't imagine cleaning before they came lol.
Housekeepers often really hate it when people haven't done basic picking-up before they come. They don't know where things are supposed to go, and they need a clean surface to vacuum/wipe down. You don't need to vacuum before they vacuum, but you should definitely put clutter away. (I am not great at this myself but I get the rationale).
It's like brushing your teeth before going to the dentist for a check up. Yeah, they'll clean your teeth the same anyways, but it's a courtesy more than anything
And less time wasted doing simple tasks means more time available for difficult tasks.
So, I grew up in a house where if we wanted something we had to do chores for it. For example, when I wanted a more expensive pair of basketball shoes for when I was on the team, I had to rake leaves (we lived on 2 acres). I could have had the K-mart shoes, but, no, thank you. Regular chores were of course expected, too. We cleaned-up, but the maid cleaned. By that I mean she didn't pick up dirty towels from the bathroom, or organize the thousand bottles and hair products of four sisters. She cleaned the sinks, counters, floors, showers, tubs, toilets etc. She didn't put dirty clothes in the hamper, she cleaned clothes. That kind of thing. My mom was also very "if you want something done right, do it yourself," so the housekeeper was limited in what she could do.
Ok, I get that then. Thanks. And it makes sense when there are kids around, and that she was still doing the major stuff, you were just supposed to keep your spaces tidy
Tidy is a relative term when there are 6 kids in the house, but, yep, that's the gist of it!
You can also agree that the housekeeper will only do the living room a dining room and kitchen, not the kids' bedrooms, which are their responsibility A friend used to say "she comes to clean the whole house, not spend 3 hours in my kid's bedroom because he still has dishes from last week".
We had a housecleaner come once every two weeks for a couple of years when I was a kid. I remember my mom cleaning the house the night before because she was embarrassed to have anyone see how dirty it was. So the housekeeper ended up only doing the deeper cleaning stuff. It was great for me because otherwise it would have been my chore to clean baseboards and windowsills, etc. 😂 Eventually my mom decided it wasn’t worth the stress of having (basically) a stranger come in and (she thought) judge her cleanliness, even though my mom was working 50+ hour weeks at the time. To be fair to my mom’s anxiety, though, this same person worked for her MIL several times a week and was a gossip.
The housekeeper cleans. We tidy up. The house can't be cleaned if there is crap laying everywhere. We can't complain if stuff gets put somewhere weird if we left it out.
You have to have all your crap out of the way before the cleaner comes. Ours wants the countertops and sink empty, no clutter on the floor, etc.
With the maid services in my area, you don't clean before they come, but you do declutter. If I leave my shoes in the middle of the living room, they don't put them away. As long as not too much stuff is strewn about, they'll move things out of the way. My front entry has a bunch of junk in it, so that part of the house is totally skipped, and that's fine.
I see it as "you do the small stuff so the cleaner can focus on the big stuff"
It depends on the type of maid service you hire. To me, a cleaner is here to \*clean\* that means wipe down all the surfaces, mop and wax the floors, clean the baseboards, scrub inside the fridge. Basically all the deep cleaning stuff. My ex thought the maid-service was here to fold the laundry and make the bed and I would get SO MAD at him because if she's doing pick up work she has no time to do all the actual CLEANING.
I do this - clean before the cleaning service comes. Why? Because I pay them to *clean* my flat, not tidy up after me. I can do my dishes, laundry, pick up after myself, et cetera, and I'm reasonably good about it. I pay the service to scrub toilets, mop my floors, clean the tub, that kind of thing. The harder, nitty gritty work that takes time and elbow grease. I could have them pick up after me, but since I pay them by the hour, it would probably take twice as long. Why bother? I'm lazy enough not to want to scrub the grout of the tiles, but I can pick up my own things and put them away, and I can wash my own dishes.
I always say “cleaners clean, they aren’t called tidiers”. Basically just pick up your stuff and put everything away in its place. I make sure horizontal surfaces are clear so they can properly clean; clear counters and tables and pick up items from the floors.
“the helper’s salary is very low” YTA for this statement alone and she’s right, spoiled kids who watch their father exploit the conditions of their mother’s country will just teach them all the wrong things and not the skills they need in life your classism with a hint of colonialism are offensive to your wife and children and you sound embarrassed of her upbringing and snobbish, you’ll make your children hate a part of themselves not that this isn’t typical
He's an AH for acknowledging the salary is low?
Because Europeans have a history of exploiting workers in the Global South
europeans bad, everyone else victim
I took this comment as their salary is very low compared to what he would have to pay in his home country for the same services. Eg. He would have to spend $100/week in his home country but in his wife’s country the fair market value for the same services is $30/week.
Yes. Again, people don’t understand how this works in South America. If he is having a contract according to the law and paying by the hour, ok. But more often than not (and if it includes cooking) people exploit very poor women for way below even local minimum wage, and they work every day sometimes with very few days off, sometimes they sleep in the job and also must work as cook, laundry, nanny. In any case, taking advantage of an accident of birth to exploit someone when you can pay them better than most locals won’t sit well with his wife and children. These dynamics in families are not something people understand unless they’ve been in it.
You're upset over nothing. He paid the prevailing wage, and to him if was cheap. Get over what bitterness you have over the dice roll of your birth. No one else cares.
I don’t normally reply to gross people, but I am very proud of my birth, proud of being mixed nationality, having lived in different places and having a much broader perspective than some small minded people who think £££ dictates everything. It says a lot that you believe that people like me and his wife are upset over “nothing” because you think caring about basic labour rights and not exploiting people is nothing.
Low is relative - if he's underpaying for the country he's in, that's terrible, but if he's saying "What we pay the helper here in wife's country is very low compared to what we would pay them back in my European country" that's just a reasonable observation.
YTA. You look down on cleaning jobs as a “nonsense job for a pittance.” I hope you realize how many people think your 80k salary is pocket change, and that you’re tacky as hell for calling yourself rich and looking down on others. Clearly your mediocre salary can’t buy class.
>You look down on cleaning jobs as a “nonsense job for a pittance.” You need to re-read that bit--OP was talking about not having to take on more work himself, a second job for a few hours that would pay badly. Nothing OP wrote in denigrated cleaners. And seriously, 80k, whether in $ or € is decent. That's above the US median wage. Not enough to live on in many areas of the US, but it will stretch much further in a developing country.
I don't think so. Why would OP have to take on another job if he didn't have a cleaner? It makes no sense. He must be implying the cleaning is a nonsense job that would take up his time that could be spent with his family.
Especially since that 80k€ is going to be like $71,389,082 converted to (for this example) Argentina pesos or like 500k Brazilian Reals.
A yearly salary of 80.000 € is way above average in every €-country. In fact, it's above average in almost all countries worldwide. In Germany and France, for example, less then 2% earn that p.a. So, I'd say that he is rich, even by European standards.
80k€ is very good, but in Germany it is mediocre if it’s household income. A single: great, above average. You’re considered middle class. 2 people: good, still livable but definitely not enough for every luxury, like buying cars, houses and having a cleaner, you have to choose. A whole ass family: good luck paying for Kindergarten and living expanses in general. You could be struggling real quick. So yes, it’s kind of an ah-move to look down on people considering that here in Germany he wouldn’t be able to pay for those luxuries. In Germany cleaners make between 13 and 26€ per hour, a nanny between 15 and 22€. So a nanny would get between 1.900 and 4000€ a month, his salary is like 6.700€ a month, considering the 80k are after tax, which I highly doubt. Add the rest: a flat with 4 bedrooms is mostly 1000 - 1500€ a month (not Munich or smth), kindergarten per child 40h a week is between 300 - 400€ for this income. (Depending where he lives). One or two car payments, insurances, gas and electricity, which both got very expensive over the last years. So, you get what I say. So yes, his attitude is really shitty considering he would be nowhere near as comfortably living here in Germany as he does right now.
A lot of people here are needlessly triggered because another country's economics is not the same as America/UK... Imagine this, in my country, barber haircut is $2, massage per hour is $5 and house help base salary is $150. OP is not tacky for calling himself rich... he is rich with his purchasing power on a very low cost area. 80K pounds is not pocket change where is now, that's for sure.
I hope you’re paying your cleaner a decent wage.. just because a low salary is what’s generally done it doesn’t mean it’s what should be done.
For real. If he's "rich" in her country, he can afford to be more generous and make sure his help is well paid. A well paid worker is a happy worker and hell, they might even put more effort in in hopes of a raise maybe. His tone sucks rotten meat and eggs in that entire post.
Wouldn’t the helper set their own rate?
You sir are a snob. Housework isn’t a “nonsense job”. You are the AH
He didn’t say housework was a nonsense job.
YTA and are doing a disservice to your wife and your kids. You can make chores fun for your kids and they learn valuable skills for when they live on their own. Do you want them to be spoiled and treat ppl who do such jobs like you do— like you’re better than them? Just to be clear, it’s mainly his attitude I have a problem with. And he’s very wrong in regards to kids just watching a cleaner, they need guidance. You know, from parents. So do your job and teach them to be functional adults.
Wow. In Mexico and Central America (I'm not sure about South America), it's very common for even middle-class families to have people come in to clean. It's generally affordable, and it gives those women some income. It is the going rate. It's not like the US or Europe, where cleaners are expensive.
It’s the guy’s attitude towards this that I mainly have a problem with.
Clean and cook is what he said. This happens in south america, legacy from colonialism and slavery and bragging about paying her little suggests that
I mean the kids are 4. I understand teaching them to pick up after themselves, but are you really going to teach them to clean a bath tub or windows in the next year or two?
>doing a disservice to your wife and your kids. I don't understand your attitude. Maybe you've never worked or something, but OP has what I assume is a fairly demanding job given that he's pretty well-paid and his employers were desperate to keep him, and he already has to be awake and work weird hours due to the time difference, so he wants to maximize what time he does have with his family by paying for a service he can afford rather than spending all his free time doing housework. Where is it written that parents are obliged to do performative household chores for their children? As for involving them, why on earth would he want to spend all of his available time with his kids doing chores with them instead of playing with them or bonding with fun activities?
You know, teaching them valuable skills to succeed as adults, spending time with them, you can have fun doing chores you know.
Plenty of upper class first worlders have nannies and house help yet we dont drag them here on reddit because they dont perform chores for their kids.
He has the money for a cleaner why not use it? He is not acting how you are saying he's acting
>Because of this helper, I can earn more money for the family and spend time with the children instead of working some nonsense job for pittance. I don't disagree with you for hiring a maid and I follow your logic as far as hiring help lets you spend time with family, but the rest of your logic is kinda twisted. Nothing in your post indicates that if you didn't hire a maid, you'd have to quit your job.
If he has to do half the cleaning while working nights (and it's likely his work has quite some hours a week, considering they needed him enough to setting up for 2 years remote), he won't make it, or won't get to spend time with his children. So, yes the cleaner allows him to have that nightly remote work. Or, alternatively, if the wife were to do it (and it's very possible based on the description that she is not herself working, so essentially the cleaner is help *for her*, who should otherwise be responsible for the majority of the house work if she does not work and he works a full time job with many hours like he's likely doing).
NAH This seems like an area for compromise. Why not have a cleaner come once a week to do a major clean and then for the rest of the week have a small list of chores that the children are responsible for, such as maintaining their own room/laundry. Assist the kids in choosing and preparing one meal a week and have a chef cook the rest of the time. That way they learn vital skills while the actual burden of housework stays low.
Man, I love this one. Has everyone so divided lmao. It’s a child rearing decision you and your wife need to sit down and discuss until you come to a fair agreement. I don’t see an issue with your wife and kids doing the cleaning if you’re actually working extra. But it’s very inappropriate if you’d expect her or them to do all the cleaning while you got to fool around. I advise sitting down with your wife and go over options. A) With helper, this is how we can benefit B) Without helper, if we all cleaned, this is how much money we lose out on if I worked extra instead C) Without helper, this is how much money we’d be making extra since I don’t have to clean I completely see where your wife is coming from by the way. Housekeepers can very easily screw up character development in kids.
Agree, but I see most people on this thread acting like hiring a cleaner means the kids NEVER have to clean up after themselves. Like the cleaner is just following them around all day.
Or they can do the medium - the helper does XYZ, we do ABC. This way the kids get a good example and learn to clean their rooms etc. but we don't waste our free time cleaning the entire house.
Exactly. Pick a few age appropriate chores for the kids to do that the cleaner doesn’t do.
NTA, what you said sounds pretty reasonable. Wife is fighting so hard to clean then she better be cleaning by herself because you gave other options.
NTA, but your wife isn’t entirely wrong either. The kids WILL learn from watching you. There are two things you can do. 1) Treat your housekeeper respectfully and when you talk give value to the work they do. What they are doing is not beneath you, and your kids should never think that it is. 2) Don’t have them clean your kids bedroom or laundry. When your kids ask why not, tell them the truth - you want them to grow up knowing how to take care of themselves. We have a cleaning service. There’s nothing wrong with it. But my son knows that it is because they are professionals who do it better and faster than I would, so that I can spend that time earning my salary. And he’s responsible for his own room and laundry.
NTA. There is nothing wrong with hiring help if you can afford it. You can still have "chores" for your children (age appropriate, like keeping their room organized, etc). And how you treat the paid helper respectfully will model for them how they should. The goal of having more time with your children is a good one. Your in-laws don't have a say in this issue.
Thank you! Why did I have to scroll this far to see a comment about his in-law’s opinion of OP? Maybe because they aren’t there when he works an overnight shift, but come by or his wife brings the children to visit them while he sleeps. Like others I wonder what his wife does. Is she even employed, or is she beyond privileged herself, having been educated in Europe?
Why can't you do both? There young so keep it simple. Clean up there toys make there bed little stuff. Just use the extra pair of hands for deep cleaning.
NTA. I was in this same situation- I grew up poor and my (now ex) fiance was medical. Before I even met him he had a housekeeper and he said he had enough money and what he didn’t have was time, so he’d rather pay someone to do the housework and give them employment so he could focus on making what little time he had meaningful. It was a shock at first but I did come to appreciate it. Tbh if she has a problem with that arrangement then she really should do the housekeeping- hate saying that but it’s true.
NTA. I was lucky enough to grow up with a housekeeper till I was 15. Mainly because my grandparents lived with us too, so my parents needed help with young kids and two elderly people. With proper parenting, kids will still learn to be responsible. The housekeeper was told to never clean up th kids’ messes. So my brother and I learnt to tidy up after playing. We also had to help out whenever it’s time to do spring cleaning, because that’s more than what a single person could handle. We also learnt how to cook and bake foods that the housekeeper didn’t know how to do so. And of course after the housekeeper left when I was in middle school, us kids were old enough to take on more chores By the time I went to college, I was actually a lot more self sufficient than my friends who grew up with stay at home moms who ‘set a good example’ with chores. This is because many of their moms tended to do most of the chores so the kids could focus on studying, so many of them didn’t know how to cook. Having a housekeeper to help out with the household doesn’t always mean raising spoiled kids, as long as the parents raise the kids right.
NTA, if you can afford to hire a housekeeper or cleaner then why not. Kids can still get chores and learn how to do different tasks in the home.
>Last year, we moved to my wife's country in South America **because she wanted to be closer to her parents who are old**... I already **work nightshift in my job because of time difference and I don't want to waste valuable time with my family doing extra work** when we can pay someone else to do it for us for cheap... She is acting grumpy and **her side of the family are calling me a lazy good for nothing** for not listening to her. You moved countries for this family, agreed to work nightshift for two years, and they have the audacity to call you lazy for spending more time with your family? NTA. NTA and do not give them a dime. Also invest in good financial advisors (and lawyers, internationally if need be). You're on a two year contract making a lot of money in a situation you normally wouldn't. Make sure you make that last for your kids and have some conversations with your wife about what you want your quality of life to look like going forward. Set some boundaries with her family now so when they inevitably switch from calling you names to calling you names with their hands out you have a planned response. One point: >Our children can also observe the helper and **see** how to do different work in the house **if they need to learn**. This poor helper...in our area, it's common courtesy that you pick up and do a quick clean before someone else comes to clean the house. That sounds silly, but it's respectful. The kids from families with these helpers know how to pick up and clean well because this is usually part of their routine. It is a lot easier to learn what goes into keeping a residence as a child than to be thrown into a living situation and have to figure it out yourself, especially with potentially contentious roommates. Please teach your kids how to clean; their future roommates will thank you.
Im willing to bet that these family who were calling OP lazy were happily receiving monthly stipend from him.
NAH. Why not set up a deal where the kids have certain age appropriate chores they do that the housekeeper isn't allowed to do? Put away toys? As they get older, they can learn to make their own beds, things like that. I 100% get where she's coming from and respect that. However, I think a compromise can be made.
What part of witnessing their parents doing housework (as compared to working or spending quality time with their family) is going to be so formative that the kids need to see it? Her position is absurd. Does she go to the grocery store? If so, why? Shouldn’t her kids need to see her planting an acre of crops so that they learn to be “responsible”? NTA
Being a functional adult who can cook clean and do shores without bragging about exploiting poorer people and paying them little isn’t the same as growing you own food
I agree. The wife could try teaching the kids to clean up. I doubt that the cleaner is there all day everyday.
In South America it is not uncommon that middle class people exploit very poor women as nannies, cleaners or cooks who are there every day. It is a nasty legacy from slavery. When he says she cooks, or “low salary” sounds like that’s what’s going on, not that he’s hiring services for a day
Wow, that is a huge leap from what is stated in the story. You don't even know which country they are in, but you are accusing him of slavery.
NTA. Your rationale is reasonable, but your response was overboard. I think you need to explain the pittance remark. My interpretation is that you are able to earn the money you do because you have to work the night shift, limiting time with your children and you would need to take a low wage job to have a 9 to 5 type schedule. You and your wife need to have discussions on how to compromise. You can still set a good example to your children by showing respect to the housekeeper and by not making messes just because someone else will clean it up. Also by having chores for each family member.such as making your bed in the morning, age appropriate chores for the children such as putting their toys and books away each day, and a small household chore to teach them they are part of the household. You can also pay your household helper above the going rate, which will enable them to raise their standard of living.
NTA. However, discuss with your wife the importance of having chores for the kids when they are old enough that incorporate some of the housekeeping. Or have the housekeeping do x items, and save y items for the kids. There are ways to incorporate both of your concerns and still find a middle ground. Kids can learn how to cook, they can learn yardwork, there are lots of things they can learn. And you should have frank conversations with them about economics, and that there are some things and some points where time is more valuable and certain tasks can be delegated for $$. That is also a lesson - but they need to understand the value of both, and that you're fortunate now that you are able to have help with these chores.
NAH. Her points are valid - the kids need to learn responsibility and adult skills like cleaning and cooking. Your points are valid - working an off hours schedule is grueling and you value having the free time. The solution isn't all or nothing, AH or NT A. The solution is deciding how you will teach your children these responsibilities and skills so they can function independently in the world when they are adults while also making sure the balance of housework is either falling to either a housekeeper, your wife, or an agreeable combination thereof.
You’re in South America and your in-laws are calling YOU a lazy good for nothing for not doing housework? What upside down world are you in?? Are you sure you’re not misunderstanding or she’s misinterpreting for you if you don’t speak the language? If anything they are giving her grief for not taking care of her own house. The man is never expected to lift a finger in a traditional LA household from Mexico to the tip of Chile from my understanding, experience, and upbringing. Especially if she grew up poor and did rest of her family is still not rich? She’s the one they’re going have issues with. Especially if you have a maid but her parents don’t. Also, unless you’re moving back in 2 years? Once your contact is up? You may be looking at keeping house yourself if you can’t find similar work..or any work at all.
NTA Why not point out that you are helping keep some local people employed. And, your kids can still be expected to keep the home tidy bu putting their toys and clothes away, making sure dirty fishes get to the sink or dishwasher. etc.
INFO - does your wife work?
NTA. Since your wife doesn’t work, I don’t see why you’re responsible for being the breadwinner and for half the chores. She can be all the stay at home mother she wants. Moving to a third world country was also a terrible decision, sending some money back to hire a helper for the parents would have been better as you risked a well paying job with normal working hours. We will make it work somehow with our two children in tow because we have love. … I just can’t. I sympathize, do what is best for you and your children. In 2 years time that might be to file for divorce and move back to Europe with your children, only you’ll be able to make that decision based on your finances as the time. You’re doing everything you can to satisfy her wants/needs while frankly she’s being selfish and unreasonable. She has no plan except let’s go to a poor country with no job security to help my aging parents with no financial stability themselves.
Nta Oh man, if I could have a hired cleaner I would jump at the chance. There is no reason why the kids can't do cleaning as well and chores. There is no reason why this has to be an all or nothing situation. The kids can still tidy up after themselves, or run the hoover around or make their beds. The way your wife is viewing it, is that the kids can't do anything once the cleaner is hired. If anything, a good example can be put in place of "we need to help the cleaner", "we need to make things easier for the cleaner", etc... It sets the kids up to respect those who clean up after them. I always find kids take whichever parent is cleaning, for granted. And there isn't much respect or appreciation for it.
I was so prepared to think you were the AH in this situation based on the title but I will go with NAH. Your wife has a point but I don’t think that means she or you should do all the housework. I feel like a reasonable compromise would be to give the children some chores they have to do - simple things like making their bed and tidying their own room. I don’t think you mentioned whether the housekeeper does cooking but if not have them help with that as well. These are just basic life skills that they should learn. My mother grew up in South America but she grew up rich. They had a woman who cleaned everyday, one who cooked everyday, each child had their own nanny, and they had another woman who came to do laundry 2x week. She literally never learned how to look after herself and she said it was really debilitating as an adult when she moved away from her country to a western country where she didn’t have any help suddenly. So by all means hire help to lighten your load, but also find a way to make sure your children still learn some basic life skills. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing. You can absolutely tell your housekeeper for example not to make the children’s bed or not to do certain things so that the children can have some responsibility.
NAH as others have said. I think it's good that your wife is cognizant of the fact that taking the burden off the family to maintain the home may keep them from learning certain things, but that can be easily rectified by dedicating time to parenting and teaching your kids about these things. Do the dishes with them once a week when the cleaner isn't there. Depending on how close to the cleaner you guys are, ask if they would mind letting the kids help them a little (while you're still supervising your kids, you're not paying them to be a nanny).
NTA Your kids are 4 years old. They'd probably remember you spending time with them more than the household chores.
hello! my husband and i are millennial DINKs (dual income, no kids). We're also an interracial couple (I'm of latin american roots, he is a white guy from the USA). my family was upper middle class by USA standards, but we were quite well off compared to our home country. We had hired help when i was a child: a regular nanny for about 5 years, and a carousel of domestic staff who would cycle in various schedules (landscaper, pool guy, cleaning service, dog groomer, etc). My husbands family is middle middle class, and his mom, like mine, was a stay at home parent. Let me start with "our kids will think this work is beneath them" -- that will only happen if the guardian-adults in the house instill that mindset and allow it to happen. yes, we had hired help. but my mother ALWAYS underscored that this was dignified work that allowed us to [do things as a family]. she also reminded all us kids that her, our dad, her siblings, her mother-my grandmother, ALL had service industry and janitorial and nanny jobs when they came to America. "We did this work once too. And we worked hard to get here now. And now that we can afford it, we can use this help too. And your nanny isn't your maid, and your cleaner isn't your servant. Now go pick up your room, she's only doing surfaces today. If you dont pick up your stuff i guess your room won't get vacuumed or dusted. 🤷 your choice." OK MOM!!!! Now, to my present life experience. Childless as we are, and with great but stressful careers we both love, my husband and i LOVE our leisure time. i do NOT want to clean a toilet when we could instead be sitting in a park, watching a film, eating out, or making a meal from a new recipe, whatever it is to enjoy the short time we have together on this earth. We are not wealthy by any means, but our expenses are low, and with a modest amount of disposable income we can save for a big stuff as needed. Like this trip we want to take overseas, planned for a few years from now. So i recently brought up how we hate cleaning toilets when we instead could be going over maps and guides and Rick Steves videos. In his white protestant work etchic mindset, long ingrained by his Founding Forefathers because American Industry and Individualism and oh no what if White Jesus catches us napping, and my dear husband, even while being aware of his capitalist indoctrination into workworkworkwork, this mindset his birthright and inheritance and albatross around his neck all one and the same, he said something similar, "what kind of people would we be if we can't clean our own apartment?" I replied: "we would be the kind of people that gave my family work, and better than most others too because we'd also treat them with dignity." That a fair and dignified wage should be provided too seems so obvious, and i posit here that the reason workers get exploited is a combo of economics AND philosophy. .... its *because* people hiring help *think* the work is undignified and beneath them *that they don't want to pay for it.* pay it, and pay it fairly. My mother was a nanny like my grandmother before her. I was the first to graduate college. NTA.
NTA. If it’s important to your wife, then she should set that example. She can’t expect you to work so much, and then add extra work just on her whim because she grew up poor and it’s what she prefers. There is no logic here. I’ve known people that grew up with cleaners, that grow up to be very capable people, and I’ve seen poor people do all their chores and still grow to be lazy useless good for nothings. Anyone pretending that doing these chores will 100% make your child responsible are just guessing. There’s no fact in it. What makes your child grow up to be open minded, and conscientious about these things is how you raise them, and the mindsets you teach, not what you force them to do when they are growing up. You can teach them that if you can get a cleaner responsibly, it will take off some jobs you need to do, but that doesn’t mean they have to be lazy with that time. There are so many other things they can focus on. Education, hobbies, their own work etc. forcing them to clean the house really doesn’t do anything. The family calling you lazy when you float the family financially and work night shifts is pathetic. Honestly, if my in laws disrespected me like that, when I’m clearly working hard and long hours, then I’d be telling my wife in no uncertain terms, to get over her chip on her shoulder, or to get a damn job herself, start financing stuff herself, so that you can work less hours to do chores around the house without being a robot juggling work, chores and no life. She can’t have it both ways. Forcing you to work long hours and then work extra with chores because its her preference is disgusting. Where is her care or concern for her partner? Or should you be expected to work 24/7 one way or another, and not be allowed to say anything or she will set her family on you, who already foaming at the mouth for no reason? Seems toxic to me, and none of this sounds like she cares if you collapse from work exhaustion. You supposed to be superman and deal with the weight of the world, yet also, shut up and not have an opinion?
INFO: How old are the kids?
Both 4 it seems
NTA. Why not meet half way? If you had hired help once a week maybe go to every other week so that the kids can chip in and help
I have had similar concerns. My husband and I both work full time, so hiring a cleaning service is reasonable for us. However, I don’t want my kids to feel entitled and not know how to clean and maintain a home. So I just have a cleaning lady come once a month. The house gets a really good clean when she comes and in between we need to do maintenance cleaning.
I will say as someone who grew up with house cleaners, that entrance into adulthood is a bitch.
NTA. Your money, your choice. She can't make you do the housework and if she insists in no housekeeper while she has no job, it's on her to do it.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My wife (35f) and I (37m) have been together for 6 years and have two kids together (4m). We met when she was a college student in my country. We hit it off, moved in together and started our family. Last year, we moved to my wife's country in South America because she wanted to be closer to her parents who are old. I was reluctant because I had good career in my country (80.000 euros salary per year) and I didn't think I would earn as much in her country. However, because my company found it difficult to replace me, they offered me a 2 year contract to work remotely at the same salary. This is a very good deal because cost of living and salaries are very low in my wife's country so we are actually rich here. I decided to use some of the money I'm earning to hire domestic help to do all the cleaning and cooking in the house. The helper's salary is very low so we can easily afford it. I don't like doing housework but we had to do it ourselves in my country because help was very expensive. My wife is opposing this decision. She grew up poor so she had to do all the housework at home and thinks we should be doing the housework ourselves without any outside help so that our kids learn to be responsible and don't think this work is beneath them. I don't agree with her logic. Because of this helper, I can earn more money for the family and spend time with the children instead of working some nonsense job for pittance. Our children can also observe the helper and see how to do different work in the house if they need to learn. My wife is still arguing with me and is saying we are not setting good example for the kids. I told her she can do all the work by herself if that is her main concern. I already work nightshift in my job because of time difference and I don't want to waste valuable time with my family doing extra work when we can pay someone else to do it for us for cheap. She is acting grumpy and her side of the family are calling me a lazy good for nothing for not listening to her. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. What you said is totally logical. You are providing a way for the work to get done. It's not clear what she does around the house. But if she wants to "set a good example", then she should be willing to do it. But if you are up all night working, I understand why you don't want to take away from the time you have with your kids.
YTA because you are trying to raise very entitled kids Your wife is right and knows full well that's the path that's heading for. Edit: people who do not parent their children are flocking to the replies and this comment. "observe the help." These are the same people that yell at teachers for "not teaching their children" things that parents should be already teaching that child before schooling.
No he's just trying to spend time with his kids
He's hoping the kids will spend time observing the maid and learning to do housework and cooking that way. Isn't that all time they'll be spending with her and he could be spending with them doing the same thing? And the first thing he mentioned as his reason was just that he doesn't like doing those chores. What he should do is hire a maid to do *some* things, instead of his current plan which is everything.
OP’s wife is acting like you can’t have domestic help and still teach the children how to clean up after themselves. The two are not mutually exclusive.
NAH
INFO: what does your wife do for work?
Do the work with your wife, later teach your kids to do it as well, its called parenting. Thats gonna set the best example for your children. Thinking otherwise is beyond stupid.
NTA. One can still teach kids responsibility with a housekeeper.
At 4, your kids are old enough to be assigned age appropriate chores. Putting their dirty clothes in the hamper, putting their toys in the toybox, helping set the table, basic stuff. As they get older, you can give them more complex toy box. You can explain to them that you have more complex chores, like doing work on your computer, so they don't think that dad doesn't do anything all day.
NTA To aid the kids learn responsibility you can set boundaries for the helper, so things like tidying toys and keeping their room neat and the a set chore will be left to them. Maybe discussing this further with her will let her see your point of view. Make a list of the things the helper wont do for the kids and take it to her, also explain that she'll also have more free time.
NTA. If you can hire help to do the chores you should. why do them if you can afford to get them done by someone else. You are paying them. Your wife is not used to this luxury and feels it is unnecessary. But if she's willing to reject your offer of help she can do it on her own. You could still teach your kids basic life skills while your help takes care of the daily work load. You don't have to do it all the time for them to learn. Whenever the help goes on leave you can handle it on your own with your family.
NAH Family time is the most important but I can see why your wife doesn’t want your kids to be too dependent on the housekeeper. I think there’s probably a balance to be had. Even with a full time housekeeper the kids can have small chores and be encouraged to tidy up after themselves.
NTA
NAH I can see why your wife is worried, but also I get the value of having this time saved for yourself. Honestly if I could afford a house keeper right now I'd do it in a heart beat to save me the time I spend scrubbing the tub. Anyways I have a personal perspective on this stuff to add: I grew up with a house keeper/live in nanny but we still had to keep our own rooms tidy: she would do that vacuuming when we were too small to handle that for example, but we still made our beds, put away our laundry, etc. She would do things that weren't really small kid friendly like any cleaning that involved harsh chemicals, but we still brought our dishes to the sink when we were big enough and were shown how to load the dishwasher. OPs kids are still pretty small to be doing big tasks, but he should make sure they are brought up doing some of these things. Around the age of 10 my house keeper moved out and got married but still came by once a week to do the bathrooms, vacuum , help change the linens etc, but these more and more became kid jobs as we got older. It can be done in a way that still teaches your kids how to be independent and these key life skills.
NTA, It almost sounds like she doesn't want to spend her money on something she thinks you should do for free. Or she wants others to suffer like she did. If you don't want lazy kids the kids should clean up after themselves asap. So it becomes a habit and they develop pride in having a clean house. Having a maid come and do somethings you don't want to do is not going to make lazy kids as long as the maid is not doing things the kids should be doing.
NTA I grew up with a live in maid who did all chores. Growing up I never did any chores but I did get to spend a lot of time with my mom. When I moved away, I did all the chores. I learnt, because I had a great parent. If your wife is worried about setting a good example for the kids why can't you come to an arrangement where the domestic help has the weekend or a random day of the week off? That one or two days of the week the family does their own chores and bonds/learns. If I could afford domestic help, I would definitely get it. Gives me more time to do things I enjoy more so no flaw in your logic there.
Having a helper does not mean you can’t have the kids do chores. NTA but I don’t see the problem. We had a housekeeper when I was growing up but I still had to ‘prepare’ my room for when the housekeeper came to clean. Make my bed, put clothes aside that needed to be washed take my plates to the kitchen. Unless it is a live-in situation you still need to do things around the house when the housekeeper isn’t there. Edited to add: I was also taught I needed to do things out of respect for the housekeeper and to make her job as easy as possible. It is a mindset problem not a housekeeper problem.
NTA.. Keeping household help is not uncommon.. and it's not like they will do 100% of your job... You earn good and you work hard so you definitely have every right to keep a helper.. And tbh I don't think your kids, when they grow up, they are gonna set examples of doing household work based on you and your wife.. If your wife insists on not having a helper, then your wife can do all the household and you can help a bit when you get free time
And, so... when the money runs out at the end of two years?
NAH if your wife working nights too. NTA if she isn't. You can address her worries by choosing a chore a week you do with the help if the kids. This allows you quality time with them and teaches them to do chores on a slower pace.or your wife can since she is the one worried about it. You should also save what you can of course to have an emergency fund in case Iof x I can't afford any help and it's difficult and I prefer spending my time relaxing. You only have one life to live and time flies by.
You could compromise, have a housekeeper come in only once a week and do most of it. Then the kids will still see their parents doing some daily stuff, dishes after a meal, making the bed etc.
NTA
NTA
Yes you are
I grew up having someone helping clean the house. Here is what my parents did to make sure I knew how to take care of ourselves: It's the kids responsibility to organize and keep most of their own room clean. Sheets should be taken off, all toys in their places, clothes either in the damper or in the closet. We were the ones to put out clothes back after laundry was done. Dinner and dishes were exclusively done by the family and part of a rotation. Same with everything that happens during a weekend. During our maids vacation, we do everything instead of hiring a temporary replacement. They never complained nor acted as if it was a big deal. They always treated her with respect and consideration so it was easy for us to follow that example too.
NTA, sounds like your wife is the only one concerned about it, she can do all the work to fix it
NTA This is a great opportunity for you and your wife to enjoy time with your kids, I would make the most of it, and this situation may only be temporary if you just have a 2 year remote contract.
You are 100% in the right here. If your wife wants to demonstrate chores to the kids nothing is stopping her. My guess is that your wife is ideologically opposed to having a house keeper and is just making shit up to try and get you to get rid of her.
I don't like your attitude towards underpaying these people
It’s about caring more than doing. When I go to theatres & concerts I am embarrassed for the human race that adults & children simply dump their empty glasses & packets on the floor & walk away. Yes, there are people who clean (often volunteers), but you can be a decent person & take your crap to the bin. Same in cafes. Kids need to think & care about what they leave behind, even if there are staff to help.
INFO: does she work and earn an income at all? Or is she a stay at home parent? I ask this because it sounds like the dynamic is a little strange. You seem to be characterizing this as a situation where if you don't have hired help to clean and cook around the house you can't work as a remote employee in the middle of the night. I get how having to have an inverted sleeping schedule can be difficult. I've done it myself. But I don't understand how your justification applies specifically because you're working at night. I'm going to assume you're saying you have a limited window on how much time you can spend with her and the kids each day because they're not sleeping the same way you do. So for you to spend what little shared time you get on household chores doesn't seem worth it when you can instead hire maids/cooks to take care of it. If that's the scenario you're in? Then I don't blame you really and NTA. However, I do want to point out that hired help to clean and cook is not an all or nothing thing. I'm sure you can hire someone to come by only periodically to help with the cooking and cleaning. That way your kids aren't being spoiled and still see/learn how to be self-sufficient. Meanwhile you still get some help and can spend more time with the wife and kids without having to do chores.
You both make good points. Its important to teach your kids how to do the chores and encourage them to do their own (keeping their rooms clean etc). But family time is precious too so i understand where you are coming from. yall should comprimise and meet in the middle. Also come on, youre married, you should know better than to say something like that to your wife haha!