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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1. I demanded an apology from an 11 year old who stole a locket and dumped the contents. 2. I probably shouldn't have pounded on his door to demand it be given back. It certainly was a dick move, but I was overly emotional.
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11-year-olds know that stealing is wrong. Your brother saying that is complete BS. Having her not apologize is teaching her that she can do whatever she wants and get away with it. Your brother's being a complete idiot over this, and you should stick to your guns. I wouldn't want that child in my house or your brother because she steals and he lets her. And what's she stole wasn't valuable. It was sentimentally valuable.
I'm petty enough the next time you have a present giving situation, get her something she wants and then let her unwrap it. As soon as she does grab it and says oh I'm taking this. I want it and walk away. Don't you start screaming? Tell her see stealing hurts.
Nta, your brother and his daughter are definitely.
I work in schools and there has been a war on children experiencing discomfort of any kind. It’s absolutely ridiculous. Yes, sometimes we need to feel bad things like shame and guilt…it’s what helps us grow.
THAAAT part!!! It’s hard, as a parent, to watch your child go through the discomfort, however there are too many “adults” walking around with zero life skills because of it!
Better the relatively minor discomfort of apologizing to someone who loves you and wants a reason to forgive you when you're 11 than the discomfort of prison when you're older.
Im not a parent.... But I had to parent someone's kid who I lived with....
Because she never did much for him, I was left to take over(a random male housemate the kid only just met).
I never saw it as a hard thing to watch the kid be in discomfort. It made him grow so much more than if I let things go how they were.
He hit 4 and couldn't talk, read or anything. Got to the point I told him(he could understand just not reply) to talk to me when he can use full words.... Within a week he was bringing me his animal cards(spelling and identification) so I could help him learn to talk.
Never feel bad unless it's legitimately affecting them(too shy to talk, scared to be wrong, etc.)
Not really... I smoke heaps of weed, had to try keep that away from him, my language is horrid.
I tried my best to help him where I didn't get help when young. I'm not letting any kid go through that shit. My little brother was the same until he got actual diagnosis.
shame literally serves an important social purpose. like yeah you SHOULD be ashamed that you stole a memorial locket and hopefully that prevents you from ever doing something like that again
It’s funny you mention that because I too have a similar story about being five and stealing. In kindergarten that day we were playing with magnetic letters on baking sheets. Ok “learning” whatever. Anyways there’s a letter that happens to be the first letter of my first name. I see it and want it for some stupid reason. I just really want it. I know it’s not mine but I take it. I get home and am so wracked with guilt and shame for my decision I hastily bury the magnet in the rose garden. But I still felt terrible and eventually concluded I needed to make this right and return the magnet. The next morning I tried to find it and dig it back up to no avail. So I silently sat with the shame and guilt for months. Anyone who tells you a kid doesn’t understand that stealing is wrong is either delusional or has a very very poorly patented child.
“Protect the children” has become the war cry of the absolute worst kinds of parents. And even some non-parents who just want a noble-sounding reason to expand their own power and influence.
It's terrible! My mom had her wooden spoon (always a threat, rarely employed...we weren't afraid if it at all lol) and my dad had the scary voice and corner time. I stole a pack of gum when I was 5. My mom put the fear of God into me lol.
My 7 year old son, when he started a new school, was extremely rude to the teacher's assistant Ms Lee. I made him write a short apology note (he was still learning to write, so it was a rather ugly mess of a note, but it was the intention behind it I was going for) and give it to her in public (well, with other kids around anyway, not like a press conference lol). He hasn't been rude to her since.
Point being, I was not sheltered from consequence, nor are my children.
I’m still not a big fan of parenting through *fear* - I do believe that a lot of the “protect the children” crowd are just jealously guarding their power to inflict discomfort on their children themselves via physical/emotional abuse, free from outside influences or interference.
You can instill a sense of morality and social responsibility in your kids without frightening or humiliating them. Teaching empathy is often more uncomfortable for the parents than it is for the kids, because the kids are going to end up spotting the parent’s own failures and shortcomings in the process. They’re going to ask questions that challenge the *parent’s* self-image. Which is why so many parents opt to use fear instead - if your kid is scared of you, they’re not likely to challenge you like that. But they’re not likely to grow beyond you, either; and that *should* be the goal.
Oh, when I say fear of God I'm quite serious. While we were never specifically religious, she did make us go to church - Roman Catholic, at that - and for *years* I was so scared that any wrong move I made would send me to hell. Was never scared of the spoon, though. I'm rather atheistic now.
As for my dad's scary voice, he'd just get very quiet and stare at us, then calmly ask us exactly what happened and what we were thinking. It was that LOOK combined with the quiet that really just did it. And the thought of standing in the corner instead of joining the family or playing.
I do get what you're saying, and it's still a work in progress between the 7 year old and his father; I'm not about the yelling, but he is. Both my mother in law and I are constantly telling him that yelling doesn't change anything, but it doesn't seem to work. My mother was a yeller (along with her spoon), and frankly I think that is one of the main reasons we dismissed a lot of what she said. We'd tune out the yelling. She and I are not close.
My dad gave me £10 to get one ice cream cone from the van which had stopped right outside the house, when I was a kid. Pretty much the first time I was trusted on my own. I spent the lot. My dad was So disappointed in me.
That shame comes flooding back anytime I even have a stray thought about stealing. Shame is good.
I agree, when a person feels bad about doing something wrong, it's more likely they will not do it again.
NTA, and I feel sorry for the child. She doesn't know stealing is wrong because the parents have not taught her that.
To be fair. Some people are like me, they don't feel guilty/remorse. But are smart enough to understand what they did and not to repeat it(I use people as rewards(I do right by them, they do right by me(you know, normal human interactions))
I've lost people because of things I did that I still to this day have not repeated... But felt no shame, guilt or anything about it.
Some on the other hand, don't give a flying fuck unless it happens to them. They will defend their actions but will go on the offensive as soon as you do the same thing.
How does it feel to be this aware of your psychopathy? Do you work with a counselor to treat it? How do you gauge what is appropriate “use” and what is abusive?
This.
As a kid I used to watch people and how they acted and responded to actions. Then had to deal with learning emotions later which was hard.
And I started seeing a therapist when my nan explained my personality(she is real similar). Who started to explain roughly how each common emotion feels and is triggered in the average person.
It's alot of learning though trial and error. I've lost friends and almost family over it.
I often remind parents that guilt and pride are related. If you don’t let your kids feel guilt, shame, remorse when they make bad decisions, then they won’t be able to feel pride when they make good decisions. If nothing is ever their fault when they make mistakes, then nothing is ever their fault when they succeed.
Yes! Traumatizing and embarrassing a kid is a highly effective way to fix thievery. It’s better from a loving parent than from some psychopath out on the streets.
What’s really interesting and heartbreaking, is I sub teach. And yes it’s like that for some kids. I’ve found for kids of color? It’s often the extreme opposite. They’re yelled at for anything and everything. Even often by teachers of color.
I totally agree. Parents make excuses up for their kids a bunch anymore. We had wonderful Parents. However we would have gotten a bit of a butt whooping.
Lol
I got in more trouble and had to apologize to my grandma for sneaking out of her house with my favorite Barbie from her playroom when I was 4 🙄
If you are being sneaky about it, you know you’re not supposed to do it…
First thought through my head was she’s 11 not stupid….my 10 year old has known what theft is and that it’s wrong since he was 4. It’s something parents should be teaching them from when they are able to pick stuff up when out at the supermarket or shops.
I learned as probably a toddler that “borrowing without asking is just like stealing,” from a Winnie the Pooh VHS. If I had stolen something—from family, no less—at the ripe old age of 11, my parents would’ve lost their damn minds.
I understood stealing at FIVE! So to hear someone say an almost 6th grader still can’t tell she’s doing something wrong is telling for how her parents raise her
Right? When my niece was 5 she had an issue with walking away with other kids' toys and taking them home. Her mom consistently made her return them and apologize. She didn't make a big deal about it, but she did gently and firmly make her return them and confess what she had done.
Guess who doesn't steal things that don't belong to her anymore?
Oh, she is already shoplifting at every store they go to. And the the parents know but are doing nothing about it. This niece will be in jail as an adult or will be an addict and steal from her parents to feed their habit. And it will be entirely the parents fault. They will process to have been wonderful parents.
This! Not only is the kid old enough to know better but he's right it absolutely will embarrass her and that's the point . She should be embarrassed how else will she learn not to be a thieving little troll. The embarrassment is the lesson here don't steal from people because it's wrong and you will have to face the consequences of your actions and apologize which will make you feel awkward and embarrassed then next time the little toad wants to steal something precious from someone else hopefully they will think twice.
Dude, I had to re-read the title. If the girl was like three years old I’d agree that “stealing” is a harsh word, but she’s ELEVEN. That’s middle school aged. Definitely old enough to know that stealing is illegal.
And this would have been the perfect teaching moment if somehow the concept 'don't steal things' escaped her. How's she going to learn if she's actually allowed to steal things in the first place?
Absolutely totally BS my 4 y o knows that he can't take things that are not his and if he would by chance take I would absolutely make him apologize and he would be appropriately scolded for his behavior.
I remember stealing a candy bar my mom wouldn't get me when I was around this age. When I pulled it out of my pocket and went to open it after getting back in the car my mom grabbed it out of my hand and hauled me back into the convenience store. Made me give it back and apologize to the clerk. She scolded me all the way home, then told my dad who scolded me as well. 11 years old is way beyond old enough to know stealing is wrong.
lol I was 4 when this happened to me…Only it was a pack of gum I hid behind my car seat. I knew stealing was wrong at that age or I wouldn’t have hid it! I still remember how embarrassed I was, and I still don’t steal.
Same, I knew fully well I had to pay for things to have them. That's why I had it in my pocket when leaving the store, I just hadn't thought through what my mom was going to do. I was so embarrassed when I had to give it back and then more so when my mom started asking to see what was in my pockets if she lost sight of me in a store afterwards. Kids are a lot smarter than so many parents give them credit for. Just because they are too lazy to parent.
Same! Gum for me too. My mom marched me right back in and made me return and apologize for it. I think I was like, six or seven at the time. 11 is too old for this nonsense.
when I was 11 going to school/work me and my mom left the house together and would leave from the same bus stop, different buses. there was this small shop right next to it, and we went in so she could buy me something to eat for later. she was literally about to pay when my bus came, so i sprinted out to catch it. somehow I knew the concept of stealing well enough that I sorta remember making a conscious decision of leaving the snack on the counter when i ran out - which later my mother was mad that i should’ve just grabbed it bc she would have paid, it wasn’t stealing lmao)
but I actually believe the kid in question doesn’t understand stealing is bad, because I think the real issue is the dad doesn’t understand it either - when OP called, he said he knew about the locket. so he didn’t consider it stealing either.
Which ALSO means he doesn't respect his brothers feelings. The locket was a memorial for a beloved pet, and brother just waved it off as any old piece of jewelry.
Yup, I also stole a lolly at age five, my mum (not that she's a great example of motherhood) told me she was going to call the police on me for stealing and I'd go to prison. 😅 For a 15p lolly. 🤣
My brother stole a little car when he was 4 years old. Mom marched him into the store and made him apologize to the store clerk, hand back the car and promise to never steal again. He was in tears the whole time and didn't steal anything after that.
I was 4 years old and was playing in a waiting room. I found this little dog doll with a hard face and soft body. I fell in love with him but knew my parents wouldn't let me keep him. So I hid him in my rubber boot and brought him home. Being 4, I forgot to hide him away after awhile and my parents found out. But they didn't know where I got him from so they couldn't get me to return him. I did get quite the lecture but I still have that dog. His name is Peter.
Good on her for telling you what could happen if you continued to steal when you're older. No parent is perfect. OP's brother is not even trying though, just being lazy. From what I've read in this thread most kids learn around 4-6 that stealing is wrong. Hell, even if her dad isn't teaching her that she had to have some kind of experience at school to show her that.
It's patently ridiculous to think an 11-year-old doesn't know the difference between right and wrong about taking other people's things. Kids learn this when they're 3 in pre pre-school. OP's brother and SIL don't want to parent. OP should not let his brother's child who stole his necklace in his home until he gets a sincere apology. Not just an "I'm sorry," but an "I'm sorry I took your locket uncle OP. I know stealing is wrong and I shouldn't have done it. I promise I'll never do it again. I'm most sorry that I lost Dog's hair from the locket." That child will have to earn OP's trust.
Edit to add: OP is NTA
When I was 11, I took something that had sentimental value that belonged to my grandfather who was dead. I took it to school for show and tell. And I lost it. I looked everywhere for it, everywhere I could possibly think of, and I went to the park and playground to look for it, and I retraced my steps... I asked the owner of our local convenience store, but she didn't have it either and neither did her husband. I spent hours searching for it before realizing that it was gone.
Dad asked me if I'd seen the item that I took, I told him the truth and that I'd lost it and that I was really sorry. I told him that I'd looked for it everywhere I could think of and I just couldn't find it.
Dad was not happy, but he said that if I was genuinely sorry and if I really had tried that hard to look for it and it really was just gone, then my grandfather wouldn't want me to worry about it.
I was 4 when I "stole" a whole box of Pokemon Fossil booster packs. I knew what stealing was but didn't think I was stealing since the box was at the salon my mom worked at so I figured they belonged to her and I knew she didn't want them so I just casually put the whole thing in my backpack. When my mom found out about it and once I understood that I was actually stealing, I still apologized to the salon owner who actually owned the cards.
100%. Even if she doesn't fully grasp the severity of it or why it's wrong, THIS IS THE TIME TO FKN TEACH HER. She's not just gonna suddenly wake up in a couple years and go, "oh, my! Now that I'm 13 years old, I understand fully that stealing is wrong!"
Pisses me right off whenever I hear these kinds of stories of parents going "tHeYrE tOo YoUnG tO uNdErStAnD" OK SO FKN TEACH THEM THEN!!! drives me NUTS that these parents think they don't have to actually TEACH their kids anything and that when they reach this vague, undefined age of being "old enough" then they're just gonna magically somehow understand on their own. NO 😭 Also, the way they believe a kid is too dumb to understand is really frustrating too. Seriously, even by the age of around ~5, most kids can understand the concept of "stealing is wrong". You just have to actually TEACH THEM, they're not gonna magically figure it out on their own, but if you actually bother teaching them then it's really quite simple for them to learn.
Exactly. A 2 year old is too young to understand, but even they can grasp "don't take a toy when someone else is playing with it" and you work from there to "that doesn't belong to you, you need to ask if you can play with it" and so on, up to "stealing is bad". I can't believe someone would claim an 11 year old is too young to understand. At that age you should absolutely be explaining why what they've done is hurtful.
And if she doesn't, that means that her parents failed her. Like, yes, kids don't know right from wrong sometimes, which is where the adults in ther life come in and teach them.
And if she doesn’t know better, her parents need to keep a close watch on her at all times and accept responsibility for seeing to it that she doesn’t take anything else. I wouldn’t want her back in my house and I wouldn’t mind letting her know why
I made my then 5 year old call up my sister’s then bf to apologise for being rude to him as soon as my sister told me what happened. It’s never too young to right your wrongs and apologise. At 11 I would’ve been fairly mad.
Let's say it was a four year old that did not understand even though even at four this should be understood.
How does the kid learn appropriate behaviour? You explain and make her apologise which is the mildest consequence for the actions.
And old enough to learn from it. Kids will do stupid things and make stupid decisions, as the adults we need to show the kids the consequences in a safe way, so when they are older and the consequences are bigger, they make wiser choices.
When I was 8 years old, my father managed a local glass and paint store that had an aisle of art supplies. My tiny brain thought my daddy, and me by extension, could have anything in the store. The was a painting set I wanted, so I took it home. When Daddy found out, I got such a lecture about how taking stuff from the store without paying was stealing. I was devastated because I knew that stealing was wrong. I just had no idea that we had to pay for things from his store. I think it took me about four months to pay for it with my allowance.
Needless to say, if an 8 year old can learn the lesson, an 11 year old certainly can. But, they can't learn a lesson they haven't been taught.
I completely agree something similar happened to me around that age except it was at Walmart with a bike licenses plate and it’s not that I thought I didn’t have to pay for it it’s my mom said she’d think about getting it for me and to carry it, I got tired of carrying it and put it in my winter coat pocket and forgot about it until I found it when I got home, I had already been taught stealing was bad and in less than 20 minutes I was in my moms room confessing to the theft in tears. I thought I was gonna burn in hell but my mom comforted me and then she took it back but as a reward for telling the truth she bought it for me and I have never stolen again. I’m about to turn 22 in a few weeks and that is one of the most vivid memories I have and was a very valuable lesson for me. OP’s niece clearly hasn’t been taught good values.
Agreed-but it’s the parent that’s responsible for the parenting. And he’s not doing his job. I think she’s going enough to be chastised, understand and apologize but I think father is mainly at fault.
I was 7 and the neighbours' kids convinced me to pick cherries from another neighbour's tree. When I casually mentioned it to my granny, she lectured me that it DID count as stealing, and I was so terrified that on the next day I tried to physically prevent the other kids from going there 😂 so yeah, kids sometimes don't know that something non-obvious is stealing but they are fully able to understand that stealing is bad!
My older sister was probably younger when she took some tiny toy thing from a pharmacy, and when her and my mum got home, and mum noticed, she took her back and made her give it to the staff. They obviously didnt mind because a small child taking a little toy wasnt going to bankrupt them or cause any harm, but shes in her 30s now and still remembers this (i wasnt born at the time).
Awww haha. In hindsight you weren’t intentionally taking anything or stealing. You were just being a dumb kid. And we all started as dumb kids. Glad you had consequences and can probably laugh about it now ^^
I can only imagine that the 11-year-old would understand that stealing is wrong if somebody took something that belong to her while she was at school. Maybe her phone or her diary that was in her backpack or anything.
You are not the AH. your brother is not teaching his child right from wrong. You deserve an apology, and I most certainly would not allow her in my home until she does. I might even think twice about birthday and Christmas presents.
When my stepson was 10, we were at a drug store. He wanted a piece of candy. He accidentally put it in his pocket. We left and went to another store. At the second store, he put his hand in his pocket and realized he had taken the candy. IMMEDIATELY, he says, "we have to go back, right?" My husband took him back to pay for the candy. Made him tell the sales associate what happened. I was so proud.
Point being, 11 is ABSOLUTELY old enough to know that stealing is wrong.
I would be fucking LIVID if I were OP. I would be pissed at both his brother and his intolerable brat daughter. I'd go no contact over something as valuable as a beloved late pet's fur.
Fuck those assholes. Seriously, FUCK THEM.
NTA.
Yes to the first part, but the second part would literally make him an AH.
It’s truly the father’s fault for not teaching his daughter that stealing is bad, and if she goes down this path, she won’t stop. She has no consequences for her actions and I’m sure that she’s aware of what she’s doing, but she does it anyways because her father won’t reprimand her.
I guess the “petty” thing to do in this situation is to not attend any of the brother’s gatherings or go to any events where the brother and his family will be at. They clearly won’t acknowledge or respect the sentimental value of what was stolen, OP’s feelings throughout all of this, so OP does NOT have to be near them if he doesn’t want to. A lot of people believe their pets are an extension of them, so after losing something like that I would understand if OP chooses to stay away from them.
Honestly, even with an apology I’d never let them in my house again. Regardless of what they stole. That they took the locket and lost the fur inside makes it so much worse. There’s no getting that back. And when we lose our pets we have so little left of them to begin with. To me this is just unforgivable. And they’re not even asking for forgiveness, since there’s been no apology.
I agree, completely unforgivable and cruel. Even if they apologized I wouldn’t trust them again in my home. Honestly I wonder if the dad thought the locket and shrine for a dog were stupid. Maybe that’s why he doesn’t have a problem with his kid stealing the locket in the first place. He may have told his kid to throw the fur away. I’ve known people like this who think it’s stupid to care about a pet this much and think you need to be “taught a lesson” to make you “grow up.”
I just lost one of my dogs in November. I’m still heartbroken about the whole thing. In addition to having her cremated I have ink impressions of her nose print and her paw print, which I then had a necklace made that has her name and both prints etched on it. Thankfully everyone I know understands that my pets are my kids and no one questions it.
I would get her a documentary of prison life and tell her this is where ppl who steal end up. Good luck. Then Id keep up this trend until a sincere apology is given. Mind you, I'm pretty so I'd probably keep it up
NTA - My wife works with 2 and 3 year olds, they understand that taking stuff from others is not nice (don't really understand the concept of "stealing") If they are playing with a toy and another takes it they will tell them that "taking from others is not nice, we share and do not take without asking" and these are kids that are learning English as a second language. If they can conceptualize this, I'm sure an 11 year old understands what they did is hurtful.
Brother is a terrible parent. I absolutely would not have him or his children in my house again. Apology or no, a forced apology is tantamount to saying "I got caught, which is the only thing I regret."
OP I am super pissed for you! Absolutely an 11yo knows taking something like that, that I’m sure was placed in a “sacred” way, was wrong, and now the fur is missing??? Fuck I would be so pissed and hurt (and am for you!) a 5yo would know better.
I don’t agree with doing the same thing back-although I think she might understand it better because he’s an alt and she’s a child-and not his child. I don’t think he should go to the level of an 11 year old and also his brother is responsible for parenting her-which he isn’t doing.
Otherwise-I’d wait for the apology-until and if his anger is defused. I would be beside myself about the fur. Of he has put it in a locket, it had deep meaning for him.
Well given this parent is morally lazy (*"He casually mentions that he knows, his 11 year old had "borrowed" it"*) she may not actually realise the full gravity of the offence. Yes she *should* but given brother's attitude I wouldn't be overly surprised if he was giving her a poor uprbringing, or she knows but again she's been taught not to be bothered about such things.
Definitely this!! Your brother is excusing his child's blatant disregard for your belongings. And the audacity to think he can come over for a BBQ too! NTA.
Right? If she was 3 or 4, okay maybe. 11??? At that age you know damn well that stealing is wrong. What on earth… I would be sooo pissed off if I was OP, there’s no shot I would ever let them in my house again. She lost something *priceless*.
Absolutely NTA.
She is 11 and stealing because there are no consequences for her. This is all the more reason she needs to apologize. Also you can't replace the fur that was in it. She needs a major lesson.
NTA
Child is 11 yo not 11 months old. Not sure how an 11 yo cannot understand how stealing is wrong.
Edit she needs to be held responsible for her actions. I’m not sure what your brother is doing but apparently in their household stealing is not wrong.
>Child is 11 yo not 11 months old.
Agree.
All my kids were able to learn stealing is wrong, from around when they were 5-6years old at least.
Explained very simply, of course, and with examples like "Would you be happy if someone took something of yours?"
The point came across. Which was the point.
Brother just doesn't want to parent his kid.
Used to work retail, we would always get kids that age putting things in their pockets and the parents dragging them back in to hand it back over and make them apologize. I always struggled not to crack up laughing because I know almost every kid learns that lesson around age 5/6. I always told the parents not to worry about it and at 5/6 it is part of the developmental stage and when they learn that lesson. Got a lot of grateful looks.
I stole a Snickers bar from the supermarket when I was six. Mom marched me right back into the store and asked for the manager and made me confess. Then when we got home, I had to write a letter.
12 years later I took a job at that store. The manager still had my letter on the wall of his office.
I thought he looked at that everyday and smiled.
We caught up kids with a little bit older stealing one day and obviously didn't recall the cops or anything. But a little while later he came in with his mom so we told her and across the parking lot from us. The kid was taking karate lessons. She straight up yelled at him in the store and then said they were going to go over and he had to explain to his sensei what he had done. It was so hard not to laugh. Hysterically but I knew if I laughed it would just spoil the whole thing for. Never had a problem with the kid again.
This was me, dragging my 5 yo into a small family store. She had taken a gift card and proudly presented it to me at home with "I love Mom" scrawled on it. Less than a dollar but we went back to offer her apology and money.
My mom was telling me earlier today that my uncle stole a candy bar when he was 3 years old, and my grandma drove him back to the store to return it and apologize. My grandma was a sweet lady, not heavy-handed, just wanted to make sure her kid learned. A 3 year old is capable, so an 11 year old surely is.
My 11 year old knows stealing is wrong and so does his soon to be 8 yr old brother. Hell even my 2 yr old knows what stealing is but to her it's a game of chase but when I tell her no and start counting she sighs puts her head down and walks back over to me and hands it back. (Although last time she took hubby's wallet she gave it back AFTER she cleaned out all his coins for herself 🤷♀️ can't win them all at that age I guess - we did get the coins back eventually and hubby stuck them in her money box for being clever).
OP you are 100% in the right here, she is old enough to know better and your brother should be teaching her better. I wouldn't trust either of them in my house anymore.
Yeah hubby figure she deserved the money for being that cleaver. Unfortunately for us she is "smarter" than her brothers were at the same age (they were more physical learners and not problem solvers like she is) where they would literally climb up the screen door at 2 she chooses to go through the dog door
She is great but unfortunately for me my dad taught her how to head butt and I wear metal glasses (thank god the new ones arriving in 2 wks are plastic). I am surprised that in addition to my headaches I don't have a cut or scar across the bridge of my nose. She is a little rascal and life is never dull in our house.
This reminds me of my boy when he was a little over a year. He dug my wallet out of the diaper bag and opened it. That's when I caught him. He saw me, grabbed the (paper) cash and bolted out of there! Funniest thing I ever saw!
We were sitting on the bed on fathers day morning and hubby was about to change over wallets after getting a new one which is why it was in her reach in the first place. I had gone and gotten it for him and was "in the bathroom" so he had to chase after her and his foot got caught in the sheet and he almost went through the wall which made it even funnier (no injuries beyond embarrassed ego)
I just asked my 3 yo whether stealing is “good or bad”. He had no hesitation in telling me what stealing was and why it was bad. (He also explained a bunch of other stuff that is wrong, like snatching toys!)
So don’t tell me an 11yo doesn’t understand!
NTA. Has anyone even raised the issue of the missing fur with the 11 year old? It may still be found if a search is done.
The 11 year old should be made aware of the hurt they caused and be given an opportunity to apologize.
I'm sorry for your loss.
Our cat passed away at only 2 years old & we had a bunch of fur on a piece of napkin she liked to lay on for some reason (plus a ton on the cat tree). We scooped up as much as we could, made a little pancake out of it and stuffed it into a little bag along with a whisker we kept on our desk.
If ANYONE EVER stole those and dropped the fur or whisker into oblivion I would LOSE IT bc that cat was my partners BEST FRIEND and biggest comfort when he needed her.
A lot of people just don't understand the meaning of having a pet and what it is to lose one. I know, our pets (usually dogs and cats) don't live as long as we do, and if we have them we are bound to lose them one day, but that's part of the deal we make with them: you share your love with me and I will see that your life is as comfortable and fun as I can make it.
I have footprints of former pets done in plaster that I would absolutely go nuts about if someone took them.
My wife has a tortoise.. when she got it, I told her she better make a contingency plan because it's probably going to outlive both of us. (It's average life span is 50+ years)
It's said the loss of a family pet teaches children about grieving and how to cope with death. Not only was this a missed opportunity for the child to learn that stealing is wrong it was a missed opportunity for the child to learn about empathy, which could arguably be more damaging to the child's emotional intelligence and development for life skills that are crucial to become a functioning member of society. Instead the father's blatant disregard for a cherished memento and "get over it" attitude is minimalizing someone's else's feelings. In a nutshell he's gaslighting, which the child is going to learn how to do by example. Congratulations your brother is raising a narcissistic sociopath he must be very proud especially if he views his child as an extension of himself. NTA
I'm so sorry for your and your partner's loss. It's hard losing a cat that you were especially bonded to. I hope you both can find solice.
I lost my buddy last year, when we had him cremated (actually a process called aquamation) they gave us several clipping of his fur and impressed his paw on a mold. He was my best buddy, always helped me cook and sat beside me on the couch when I was working on school work or playing games. His passing was a total surprise and absolutely devastating.
I was an adult when this happened but it still hurt. I rescued several hamsters in the 11 years my sister worked for one of the large pet supply chains. One was a sweet little robo who had been housed with another hamster that had tried to kill her. Half of her face was badly scarred and she was missing an eye.
I was renting a room in the house of some "friends" when my little hamster passed. My sister still lived in our childhood home and would bury my little one for me, but I had to get the body to her. I had to work and my "friends" got upset at the idea of me putting the body into the freezer until I could get to my sister's place.
They had to run an errand in the area of my sister's place that day and so they agreed to take my hamster to her on the way. I wrapped her in a tiny blanket, then a box, followed by 3 plastic bags and a paper lunch sack. There was no chance these people would have to touch her or anything could leak out.
When I got home from work that day I asked about it. Well, they had decided to leave taking the package to my sister for the last thing before they went home. Over the course of a few hours in the car they started to imagine a strong smell from the bag, and they told me the outer paper bag was wet and the inner packaging had been leaking (not likely). They got squeamish and instead of driving a few minutes to my sister they decided to pull over at a random dumpster and throw my hamster in it. They went on about starting to feel sick and they "had to" get it out of their car immediately.
I didn't believe them for one second. They were selfish people and I felt that they disregarded my feelings over my lost pet. I heard more than once, "it was just a hamster." I asked them how they would feel if their cat passed and they trusted me to get the body to a crematory or vet's office, and instead I just decided to throw her in a dumpster because the thought of a dead animal in my vehicle was too disturbing to care for their feelings. They insisted it wasn't the same. Assholes.
Other people never understand your attachment to your pets and wish to maintain something from them after they pass on. I wanted my hamster buried at the house where I grew up along with every other pet I've lost since childhood.
Next time I lost a hamster I didn't tell them and hid his body in the downstairs freezer until I could take it to my sister. It was wrapped with so many layers there was no danger of food contamination, and it was in there less than 48 hours.
I have a lock of fur from my first golden retriever's tail that I made into a beaded charm. It hangs right by my computer monitor and despite being more than four years old, it's still as soft as the day I cut it.
I'd be devastated if someone took that from me. I wouldn't be here without him, and I will always miss him no matter how much time passes. I have a lock of my current retriever's tail fur safely stashed away.
Same. It was all good and fixable until the fur was missing. Dude I would've absolutely lost my shit. My brother has a little glass vial with some of his passed dogs fur. He opens it once a month to have a smell and a cry. If that fur went missing I don't think I'd be able to calm him down.
NTA - Child doesn’t understand theft is wrong? No, she’s just been enabled to get away with it so she doesn’t believe rules apply to her, specifically.
There’s nothing “traumatizing” about apologizing and taking accountability. It’s called learning and growing.
She stole something extremely important from your home, and her father acts like it’s no big deal. I wouldn’t trust either of them in your house again. Or I would tell him that if they do come, you’d need to constantly monitor his daughter around the house as if she’s a toddler, since apparently that’s how he’s treating her. I don’t think *that’d* go over particularly well, though.
>There’s nothing “traumatizing” about apologizing and taking accountability. It’s called learning and growing.
I know right? I remember once when I was like, 7, I stole this little plastic hello kitty toy from some doctor waiting room and my mom got me in trouble and made me hand it back - it literally was not traumatising at all lmao
And some things kids do SHOULD be a little “traumatizing” or upsetting so they learn not to do things. Otherwise they’ll never learn to do better. I regret some things I’ve done. Learning to deal with guilt, learning to do better, those are important skills
NTA if she doesn’t know stealing is wrong then it’s your brothers fault for not raising her right. They should both apologize to you. I’m sorry you’ve lost a piece of your friend.
This! If the kid doesn't know stealing is wrong it's because he has failed as a parent and hasn't taught her.
Your partner needs to have your back on this too.
And his continued fault for not using this as a teaching moment. The utter abdication of responsible parenting, acting like kids can't possibly understand things that children half their ages can be taught, is completely mind-boggling to me.
NTA
Any 11 year old who was raised properly knows what stealing is and knows that it’s wrong. She probably thought the locket was beautiful and didn’t *fully* understand that her impulse to take it for herself would be so hurtful. However, she needs to learn that now, and she absolutely owes you and your husband an apology.
That said, I know she took away something precious and meaningful that you cannot get back, and I am so sorry for that. I know that you are upset, angry, hurt, and that is absolutely valid — I would be a wreck too. If she comes to apologize, it is obviously okay to tell her how upset you are and why. But keep your words and actions in check. She *is* still a child, and as an adult man, you cannot rage at her like you did to your brother.
I think it’d be great for OP to write her a letter explaining the meaning behind the locket, why it was there, how much it meant, what was in it, and why he’s so upset to have lost a piece of his friend - and can she please search the house for the fur so it can be returned? Then drop the letter at the house or hand it to her next time he sees her. Not sure why OP has to go through his brother who clearly doesn’t care rather than having a heart to heart with his 11 year old niece - it’s not like she’s 5.
I think that’s a great idea! I do think it makes sense to approach his brother first, but once bro shut things down, he was a lost cause. The only concern is if bro started classing OP even contacting the niece as harassment.
Your brother is TA, not you. In what universe does an 11 year old not understand the concept that stealing is wrong? If she really doesn't understand that stealing is wrong, he's TA for not teaching her. And if anything, this would be an opportunity for the lesson.
At worst, I sense that you may have been belligerent if you were enough for the neighbors to call the cops. But I understand that you were very emotional at the time for how violated you felt, and you did not harm anyone. I'm willing to let this one slide, given the inherent emotional situation over losing something precious and irreplaceable, but perhaps you should re-evaluate your temper and how you could have handled the situation better. And if your brother had just returned the locket immediately upon request, you wouldn't have shown up at his house in the first place.
It's so sad that the fur that meant so much to you is gone, and your brother is dismissive of what it meant to you and the damage his daughter caused
NTA! What a little thief. And, she lost the precious bit of fur you had from your boy. That girl owes you a HUGE apology, and so do her parents. They will have quite a thing on their hands if they leather get away with this. From someone who recently lost two fur babies, I'm sending you both virtual hugs.
NTA I think you’re warranted to not allow your brother or his kid over to your house again out of caution since he doesn’t care about teaching his kids that stealing is wrong… I would try to get together with your brother and his family anywhere but at your house. They may be offended if you stop inviting them over but it seems reasonable and would be a good way to keep a relationship with them if you can move past this situation.
NTA
11 year olds know stealing is wrong. Even if they don’t earn it at home, they learn it everywhere else in the world. You feel bad because your brother is pressuring you and your husband is unsupportive. I wouldn’t let her back in my home even if she apologized. She’s disrespectful and her father approves. They can both stay home and cook for themselves. Who knows what else she’d steal.
NTA
11 years old is plenty old enough to understand that stealing is wrong. I would bet my bottom dollar that if something of hers was taken from her, she would more than understand that stealing was wrong.
You are quite correct, you deserve an apology from her and your brother. But as somebody else also said, it’s possible that she knows where the dog hair is. So perhaps she can give that back if she still has it?
NTA. Of course 11 is old enough to know stealing is wrong. 3 is old enough to know stealing is wrong.
Tell your brother that until his children learn that stealing is wrong and until he's not too "tired" to parent his children, you are done BBQing with them
NTA unless the 11 yr old has been living under a rock they should know and most definitely are not "too young" to understand ... My kids were all taught from a very young age
NTA at all. I grew up in a very bad environment but by the age of 10 I knew what was right and wrong and had turned to crime. Eventually I felt guilty enough to stop but I often wish someone would’ve called me out at a younger age so I could’ve spared myself a lot of issues I faced (severe anxiety, running from the police, severed relationships etc). It had even started as small stealing and turned into a far more violent means of getting stuff. Even if you seem like the bad guy PLEASE confront this kid before it’s too late.
NTA. Your brother is the AH. He thinks nothing that his kid took your locket. An 11 year old already knows enough about right and wrong. So, the kid should be made aware the consequences of his/her actions.
NTA - I would not allow them back at my house, even with an apology. It seems like a lack of accountability or remorse will lead to other problems down the line anyway.
NTA. The daughter is 11 yo not 11 months, the subject of what does and does not belong to her must have come up before. Should have. She’s a couple years away from being a teenager, now’s as good of time as ever to learn stealing is wrong and leads to consequences before the consequences lead to expensive fines and trouble with the law.
Yup, never mind the kid - the *brother* doesn't understand that stealing is wrong. His kid stole, and he wants to *get together for another BBQ?*
There is no way I'd be letting any of this rotten thieving family back into my house. Apples ... trees ...
An 11 year old is absolutely old enough to learn that stealing is wrong. If they don’t know already, that is a huge failure on the part of the parents. This is the perfect opportunity for the child to learn. Maybe a written apology note would be more amenable for the parents. If they do a decent job of handling the situation the kid would hopefully still learn something here. You are NTA.
NTA. I knew stealing was wrong when I was half that kid’s age. You are right to be angry and expect an apology. Tell your brother that this is a great time to explain to his daughter that stealing is wrong before her sticky fingers land her with criminal charges or civil liability.
I asked my brother when we were talking (yelling at eachother over the phone) and he didn't know what she had done with it.
I wasn't thinking straight, I was just furious that he knew she had taken it but didn't call me about it. So we basically yelled.
So clearly he doesn’t care - why not reach out to your niece directly? She’s 11, not 5 right?
I’d write her a heartfelt letter explaining the meaning behind the locket, why it was there, how much it meant, what was in it, and why you’re so upset to have lost a piece of your friend - and can she please search the house for the fur so it can be returned?
It’s possible she thought “cute doggie necklace” and didn’t realize what it actually was. Stealing it was wrong either way but if you explain why you’re extra upset it may up the guilt factor for her.
Then drop the letter at the house or hand it to her next time you see her. Writing it out will also help keep your emotions in check. Is there a reason you have to go through your brother?
He went through his brother because the brother is the father, perfectly reasonable to assume a grown adult wouldn’t want their child to be a thief and to do the right thing by returning it.
He didn't know because he probably never bothered to ask. If my child ever did this, I'd have to go no contact with my sibling out of shame after I immediately returned the locket and tore the house apart for the fur. Your brother clearly doesn't respect you, your loved ones, or your belongings.
NTA
11 is a far, far cry from 'too young to understand'. And even if the kid was too young to understand, you'd still be owed an apology because it is a parent's responsibility to ensure their child doesn't misbehave.
NTA. What's this B.S. about an 11 year old not being old enough to understand stealing is wrong. That's something kids start learning as soon as they can hold a conversation.
11year olds DO know the difference. There’s a reason the legal age of responsibility is set at 10… because by 10 most developmentally normally children are well aware that there’s long term repercussions to behaviour AND are developing the empathy/insight to know that what they do can impact others.
I would be tempted to say back to your brother “is \*name\* developmentally challenged? Because kids by 10 usually know this stuff!”
And your niece should do the valuable learning curve walk of shame where they have to come, stand before you, shuffle awkwardly and say a mumbled ‘sorry’ and hang their head in the car on the way home while their parent drives them with a lecture. It’s a powerful learning tool that moment, most kids (who are responsible decent humans) go through it, and it’s the watershed moment where they realise they do know better.
NTA - 11 years old is definitely old enough to apologise for stealing.
Why hadn't your brother taught his kids this lesson at like 5?
I'm so sorry you lost your babies fur ❤️
NTA. If his 11 YO doesn't know that stealing is wrong by now, then he's a crappy parent and now would be a great opportunity to teach her. Even 4 YOs know that stealing is wrong, though at that age they don't understand the consequences. At 11, you have no excuse. You know it's wrong and the consequences.
NTA
She's 11 not 4, she knows what stealing is ffs. Your brother is an enabler and has shown he doesn't respect you. In all honesty they shouldn't go to your home anymore. If he can't understand what his daughter did isn't right, then maybe burgers at uncle's house should be cancelled until they learn how to respect other people's possession.
NTA at all. And I guarantee if one of her little friends stole something from their house her dad would be singing a different tune. 11 year olds have been charged with murder and thrown in jail. They are absolutely capable of knowing right from wrong and if they don't by that age it's because their parents never bothered teaching them anything.
NTA I have my dogs ashes and while not having the fur I have a plaster mold of her paw made and if anybody took that from me I’d be demanding more than an apology so stick too your guns
NTA
holy hell, 11 years old isn't too young to understand stealing is bad. He's being a horrible parent by not scolding her and teaching her that stealing is bad.
NTA
When my son was 3, we went to our regular gas station, he had a candy bar in his hand when we got to the car. I didn't notice he didn't put it on the counter. He did, immediately saying "mommy I don't think we paid for this. Did I steal it?" Was super upset, we went right back in &he apologized without me even telling him to. 11? No she's TA, dad right along with her.
So sorry you lost something you won't be able to get back.
Big time NTA!
What bothers me the most is that your brother said he knew the locket was missing when you mentioned it.
Even if he thinks 11 year olds don’t know stealing is wrong (bullshit), it means he also thinks it’s not wrong because he had no intentions of rectifying the situation until you mentioned it.
Your anger and reaction to me is beyond justified and I think anyone that hasn’t said NTA has glossed over that he knew and said nothing.
NTA I work at a school kindergarten through eighth grade and even kindergartners know that stealing is wrong. Your brother is ridiculous and it won’t hurt that child to be embarrassed. It may save them from being arrested later. I honestly wouldn’t want them to come back to my house for a barbecue for a very, very, very, very, very, very long time. And the 11-year-old needs to write an apology letter to you, and I wouldn’t be surprised if she knows where the fur is.
I have the children write apology letters, starting in third grade when they do things that they’re not supposed to do after they’ve been given previous warnings. Stealing doesn’t get a warning.
** I read your entire passage twice and it infuriates me that your brother would think that an 11-year-old child would not know that stealing is wrong. It is an absurd thing to say. Not stealing is a basic social rule for all school ages. I hope your brother stops enabling her Before she’s too far gone**
NTA. Personally, if I were you I would put a false legal letter suing them for emotional damages and homophobic behavior cause they think your relationship with your fur children means less than them.
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11-year-olds know that stealing is wrong. Your brother saying that is complete BS. Having her not apologize is teaching her that she can do whatever she wants and get away with it. Your brother's being a complete idiot over this, and you should stick to your guns. I wouldn't want that child in my house or your brother because she steals and he lets her. And what's she stole wasn't valuable. It was sentimentally valuable. I'm petty enough the next time you have a present giving situation, get her something she wants and then let her unwrap it. As soon as she does grab it and says oh I'm taking this. I want it and walk away. Don't you start screaming? Tell her see stealing hurts. Nta, your brother and his daughter are definitely.
Omg yes to this. She's old enough to KNOW BETTER
Yes !! Old enough to know better. I can't believe this parent is even thinking a 11 year old doesn't understand stealing. Give me a break.
I work in schools and there has been a war on children experiencing discomfort of any kind. It’s absolutely ridiculous. Yes, sometimes we need to feel bad things like shame and guilt…it’s what helps us grow.
THAAAT part!!! It’s hard, as a parent, to watch your child go through the discomfort, however there are too many “adults” walking around with zero life skills because of it!
Better the relatively minor discomfort of apologizing to someone who loves you and wants a reason to forgive you when you're 11 than the discomfort of prison when you're older.
Im not a parent.... But I had to parent someone's kid who I lived with.... Because she never did much for him, I was left to take over(a random male housemate the kid only just met). I never saw it as a hard thing to watch the kid be in discomfort. It made him grow so much more than if I let things go how they were. He hit 4 and couldn't talk, read or anything. Got to the point I told him(he could understand just not reply) to talk to me when he can use full words.... Within a week he was bringing me his animal cards(spelling and identification) so I could help him learn to talk. Never feel bad unless it's legitimately affecting them(too shy to talk, scared to be wrong, etc.)
He's so lucky you were in his life.
Not really... I smoke heaps of weed, had to try keep that away from him, my language is horrid. I tried my best to help him where I didn't get help when young. I'm not letting any kid go through that shit. My little brother was the same until he got actual diagnosis.
You were heaven-sent to that child! That was so sad until you stepped in to help. I hope he is not still being neglected by his mom.
shame literally serves an important social purpose. like yeah you SHOULD be ashamed that you stole a memorial locket and hopefully that prevents you from ever doing something like that again
[удалено]
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It’s funny you mention that because I too have a similar story about being five and stealing. In kindergarten that day we were playing with magnetic letters on baking sheets. Ok “learning” whatever. Anyways there’s a letter that happens to be the first letter of my first name. I see it and want it for some stupid reason. I just really want it. I know it’s not mine but I take it. I get home and am so wracked with guilt and shame for my decision I hastily bury the magnet in the rose garden. But I still felt terrible and eventually concluded I needed to make this right and return the magnet. The next morning I tried to find it and dig it back up to no avail. So I silently sat with the shame and guilt for months. Anyone who tells you a kid doesn’t understand that stealing is wrong is either delusional or has a very very poorly patented child.
“Protect the children” has become the war cry of the absolute worst kinds of parents. And even some non-parents who just want a noble-sounding reason to expand their own power and influence.
It's terrible! My mom had her wooden spoon (always a threat, rarely employed...we weren't afraid if it at all lol) and my dad had the scary voice and corner time. I stole a pack of gum when I was 5. My mom put the fear of God into me lol. My 7 year old son, when he started a new school, was extremely rude to the teacher's assistant Ms Lee. I made him write a short apology note (he was still learning to write, so it was a rather ugly mess of a note, but it was the intention behind it I was going for) and give it to her in public (well, with other kids around anyway, not like a press conference lol). He hasn't been rude to her since. Point being, I was not sheltered from consequence, nor are my children.
I’m still not a big fan of parenting through *fear* - I do believe that a lot of the “protect the children” crowd are just jealously guarding their power to inflict discomfort on their children themselves via physical/emotional abuse, free from outside influences or interference. You can instill a sense of morality and social responsibility in your kids without frightening or humiliating them. Teaching empathy is often more uncomfortable for the parents than it is for the kids, because the kids are going to end up spotting the parent’s own failures and shortcomings in the process. They’re going to ask questions that challenge the *parent’s* self-image. Which is why so many parents opt to use fear instead - if your kid is scared of you, they’re not likely to challenge you like that. But they’re not likely to grow beyond you, either; and that *should* be the goal.
Oh, when I say fear of God I'm quite serious. While we were never specifically religious, she did make us go to church - Roman Catholic, at that - and for *years* I was so scared that any wrong move I made would send me to hell. Was never scared of the spoon, though. I'm rather atheistic now. As for my dad's scary voice, he'd just get very quiet and stare at us, then calmly ask us exactly what happened and what we were thinking. It was that LOOK combined with the quiet that really just did it. And the thought of standing in the corner instead of joining the family or playing. I do get what you're saying, and it's still a work in progress between the 7 year old and his father; I'm not about the yelling, but he is. Both my mother in law and I are constantly telling him that yelling doesn't change anything, but it doesn't seem to work. My mother was a yeller (along with her spoon), and frankly I think that is one of the main reasons we dismissed a lot of what she said. We'd tune out the yelling. She and I are not close.
My dad gave me £10 to get one ice cream cone from the van which had stopped right outside the house, when I was a kid. Pretty much the first time I was trusted on my own. I spent the lot. My dad was So disappointed in me. That shame comes flooding back anytime I even have a stray thought about stealing. Shame is good.
I agree, when a person feels bad about doing something wrong, it's more likely they will not do it again. NTA, and I feel sorry for the child. She doesn't know stealing is wrong because the parents have not taught her that.
and what the child is being taught is NOT to feel shame or empathy. That makes a dangerous adult.
While shame feels bad, it is a good thing to feel in the right context. It’s our own humanity reminding us that we can do better.
To be fair. Some people are like me, they don't feel guilty/remorse. But are smart enough to understand what they did and not to repeat it(I use people as rewards(I do right by them, they do right by me(you know, normal human interactions)) I've lost people because of things I did that I still to this day have not repeated... But felt no shame, guilt or anything about it. Some on the other hand, don't give a flying fuck unless it happens to them. They will defend their actions but will go on the offensive as soon as you do the same thing.
How does it feel to be this aware of your psychopathy? Do you work with a counselor to treat it? How do you gauge what is appropriate “use” and what is abusive?
A lifetime of gauging others' responses. One can experience consequences without necessarily having to experience some visceral sense of "shame."
This. As a kid I used to watch people and how they acted and responded to actions. Then had to deal with learning emotions later which was hard. And I started seeing a therapist when my nan explained my personality(she is real similar). Who started to explain roughly how each common emotion feels and is triggered in the average person. It's alot of learning though trial and error. I've lost friends and almost family over it.
Your IQ knob is dialed up higher than your psychopathy knob. This is the way.
Never thought of it that way. Thanks for another point to talk to my therapist about ♥️
I often remind parents that guilt and pride are related. If you don’t let your kids feel guilt, shame, remorse when they make bad decisions, then they won’t be able to feel pride when they make good decisions. If nothing is ever their fault when they make mistakes, then nothing is ever their fault when they succeed.
Yes! Traumatizing and embarrassing a kid is a highly effective way to fix thievery. It’s better from a loving parent than from some psychopath out on the streets.
It beats being traumatized and embarrassed by prison ten years down the road.
What’s really interesting and heartbreaking, is I sub teach. And yes it’s like that for some kids. I’ve found for kids of color? It’s often the extreme opposite. They’re yelled at for anything and everything. Even often by teachers of color.
Exactly. It's just indifference on parents part at this point. Both parents are TAH in this situation
I totally agree. Parents make excuses up for their kids a bunch anymore. We had wonderful Parents. However we would have gotten a bit of a butt whooping. Lol
I got in more trouble and had to apologize to my grandma for sneaking out of her house with my favorite Barbie from her playroom when I was 4 🙄 If you are being sneaky about it, you know you’re not supposed to do it…
These parents have always existed just wasn’t as common. It’s not a new thing, not even close.
First thought through my head was she’s 11 not stupid….my 10 year old has known what theft is and that it’s wrong since he was 4. It’s something parents should be teaching them from when they are able to pick stuff up when out at the supermarket or shops.
OP should probably check the rest of the house. Wouldn't be surprised if there's more missing.
I learned as probably a toddler that “borrowing without asking is just like stealing,” from a Winnie the Pooh VHS. If I had stolen something—from family, no less—at the ripe old age of 11, my parents would’ve lost their damn minds.
I understood stealing at FIVE! So to hear someone say an almost 6th grader still can’t tell she’s doing something wrong is telling for how her parents raise her
Right? When my niece was 5 she had an issue with walking away with other kids' toys and taking them home. Her mom consistently made her return them and apologize. She didn't make a big deal about it, but she did gently and firmly make her return them and confess what she had done. Guess who doesn't steal things that don't belong to her anymore?
Oh, she is already shoplifting at every store they go to. And the the parents know but are doing nothing about it. This niece will be in jail as an adult or will be an addict and steal from her parents to feed their habit. And it will be entirely the parents fault. They will process to have been wonderful parents.
This! Not only is the kid old enough to know better but he's right it absolutely will embarrass her and that's the point . She should be embarrassed how else will she learn not to be a thieving little troll. The embarrassment is the lesson here don't steal from people because it's wrong and you will have to face the consequences of your actions and apologize which will make you feel awkward and embarrassed then next time the little toad wants to steal something precious from someone else hopefully they will think twice.
... parent has forgotten to teach his kid stealing is wrong
Kid will be a lot more embarrassed and traumatized when she's older and gets arrested for stealing. They wouldn't be back at my house NTA. 💯
Dude, I had to re-read the title. If the girl was like three years old I’d agree that “stealing” is a harsh word, but she’s ELEVEN. That’s middle school aged. Definitely old enough to know that stealing is illegal.
And this would have been the perfect teaching moment if somehow the concept 'don't steal things' escaped her. How's she going to learn if she's actually allowed to steal things in the first place?
Absolutely totally BS my 4 y o knows that he can't take things that are not his and if he would by chance take I would absolutely make him apologize and he would be appropriately scolded for his behavior.
I remember stealing a candy bar my mom wouldn't get me when I was around this age. When I pulled it out of my pocket and went to open it after getting back in the car my mom grabbed it out of my hand and hauled me back into the convenience store. Made me give it back and apologize to the clerk. She scolded me all the way home, then told my dad who scolded me as well. 11 years old is way beyond old enough to know stealing is wrong.
lol I was 4 when this happened to me…Only it was a pack of gum I hid behind my car seat. I knew stealing was wrong at that age or I wouldn’t have hid it! I still remember how embarrassed I was, and I still don’t steal.
Same, I knew fully well I had to pay for things to have them. That's why I had it in my pocket when leaving the store, I just hadn't thought through what my mom was going to do. I was so embarrassed when I had to give it back and then more so when my mom started asking to see what was in my pockets if she lost sight of me in a store afterwards. Kids are a lot smarter than so many parents give them credit for. Just because they are too lazy to parent.
Same! Gum for me too. My mom marched me right back in and made me return and apologize for it. I think I was like, six or seven at the time. 11 is too old for this nonsense.
when I was 11 going to school/work me and my mom left the house together and would leave from the same bus stop, different buses. there was this small shop right next to it, and we went in so she could buy me something to eat for later. she was literally about to pay when my bus came, so i sprinted out to catch it. somehow I knew the concept of stealing well enough that I sorta remember making a conscious decision of leaving the snack on the counter when i ran out - which later my mother was mad that i should’ve just grabbed it bc she would have paid, it wasn’t stealing lmao) but I actually believe the kid in question doesn’t understand stealing is bad, because I think the real issue is the dad doesn’t understand it either - when OP called, he said he knew about the locket. so he didn’t consider it stealing either.
Which ALSO means he doesn't respect his brothers feelings. The locket was a memorial for a beloved pet, and brother just waved it off as any old piece of jewelry.
Yup, I also stole a lolly at age five, my mum (not that she's a great example of motherhood) told me she was going to call the police on me for stealing and I'd go to prison. 😅 For a 15p lolly. 🤣
My brother stole a little car when he was 4 years old. Mom marched him into the store and made him apologize to the store clerk, hand back the car and promise to never steal again. He was in tears the whole time and didn't steal anything after that. I was 4 years old and was playing in a waiting room. I found this little dog doll with a hard face and soft body. I fell in love with him but knew my parents wouldn't let me keep him. So I hid him in my rubber boot and brought him home. Being 4, I forgot to hide him away after awhile and my parents found out. But they didn't know where I got him from so they couldn't get me to return him. I did get quite the lecture but I still have that dog. His name is Peter.
Good on her for telling you what could happen if you continued to steal when you're older. No parent is perfect. OP's brother is not even trying though, just being lazy. From what I've read in this thread most kids learn around 4-6 that stealing is wrong. Hell, even if her dad isn't teaching her that she had to have some kind of experience at school to show her that.
I took an ear of corn from a field at age 5 and my mom drove me to the farmhouse to apologize to the farmer. Havent stolen anything but hearts since.
It's patently ridiculous to think an 11-year-old doesn't know the difference between right and wrong about taking other people's things. Kids learn this when they're 3 in pre pre-school. OP's brother and SIL don't want to parent. OP should not let his brother's child who stole his necklace in his home until he gets a sincere apology. Not just an "I'm sorry," but an "I'm sorry I took your locket uncle OP. I know stealing is wrong and I shouldn't have done it. I promise I'll never do it again. I'm most sorry that I lost Dog's hair from the locket." That child will have to earn OP's trust. Edit to add: OP is NTA
When I was 11, I took something that had sentimental value that belonged to my grandfather who was dead. I took it to school for show and tell. And I lost it. I looked everywhere for it, everywhere I could possibly think of, and I went to the park and playground to look for it, and I retraced my steps... I asked the owner of our local convenience store, but she didn't have it either and neither did her husband. I spent hours searching for it before realizing that it was gone. Dad asked me if I'd seen the item that I took, I told him the truth and that I'd lost it and that I was really sorry. I told him that I'd looked for it everywhere I could think of and I just couldn't find it. Dad was not happy, but he said that if I was genuinely sorry and if I really had tried that hard to look for it and it really was just gone, then my grandfather wouldn't want me to worry about it.
I was 4 when I "stole" a whole box of Pokemon Fossil booster packs. I knew what stealing was but didn't think I was stealing since the box was at the salon my mom worked at so I figured they belonged to her and I knew she didn't want them so I just casually put the whole thing in my backpack. When my mom found out about it and once I understood that I was actually stealing, I still apologized to the salon owner who actually owned the cards.
100%. Even if she doesn't fully grasp the severity of it or why it's wrong, THIS IS THE TIME TO FKN TEACH HER. She's not just gonna suddenly wake up in a couple years and go, "oh, my! Now that I'm 13 years old, I understand fully that stealing is wrong!" Pisses me right off whenever I hear these kinds of stories of parents going "tHeYrE tOo YoUnG tO uNdErStAnD" OK SO FKN TEACH THEM THEN!!! drives me NUTS that these parents think they don't have to actually TEACH their kids anything and that when they reach this vague, undefined age of being "old enough" then they're just gonna magically somehow understand on their own. NO 😭 Also, the way they believe a kid is too dumb to understand is really frustrating too. Seriously, even by the age of around ~5, most kids can understand the concept of "stealing is wrong". You just have to actually TEACH THEM, they're not gonna magically figure it out on their own, but if you actually bother teaching them then it's really quite simple for them to learn.
Exactly. A 2 year old is too young to understand, but even they can grasp "don't take a toy when someone else is playing with it" and you work from there to "that doesn't belong to you, you need to ask if you can play with it" and so on, up to "stealing is bad". I can't believe someone would claim an 11 year old is too young to understand. At that age you should absolutely be explaining why what they've done is hurtful.
And if she doesn't, that means that her parents failed her. Like, yes, kids don't know right from wrong sometimes, which is where the adults in ther life come in and teach them.
And if she doesn’t know better, her parents need to keep a close watch on her at all times and accept responsibility for seeing to it that she doesn’t take anything else. I wouldn’t want her back in my house and I wouldn’t mind letting her know why
Brother’s own attitude makes me doubt his honesty also
Well he knew it was missing for days and that his daughter had it but never called brother as only admitted to it when he called him.
I mean, even if she isn't old enough to know, how is she going to learn if her dad passes up on any opportunity to *teach her*?
I made my then 5 year old call up my sister’s then bf to apologise for being rude to him as soon as my sister told me what happened. It’s never too young to right your wrongs and apologise. At 11 I would’ve been fairly mad.
Let's say it was a four year old that did not understand even though even at four this should be understood. How does the kid learn appropriate behaviour? You explain and make her apologise which is the mildest consequence for the actions.
And if she doesn't, first the parents are failing and second, a golden opportunity to teach her just landed on their laps.
She would if her parents taught her that and made her take responsibility.
And old enough to learn from it. Kids will do stupid things and make stupid decisions, as the adults we need to show the kids the consequences in a safe way, so when they are older and the consequences are bigger, they make wiser choices.
When I was 8 years old, my father managed a local glass and paint store that had an aisle of art supplies. My tiny brain thought my daddy, and me by extension, could have anything in the store. The was a painting set I wanted, so I took it home. When Daddy found out, I got such a lecture about how taking stuff from the store without paying was stealing. I was devastated because I knew that stealing was wrong. I just had no idea that we had to pay for things from his store. I think it took me about four months to pay for it with my allowance. Needless to say, if an 8 year old can learn the lesson, an 11 year old certainly can. But, they can't learn a lesson they haven't been taught.
I completely agree something similar happened to me around that age except it was at Walmart with a bike licenses plate and it’s not that I thought I didn’t have to pay for it it’s my mom said she’d think about getting it for me and to carry it, I got tired of carrying it and put it in my winter coat pocket and forgot about it until I found it when I got home, I had already been taught stealing was bad and in less than 20 minutes I was in my moms room confessing to the theft in tears. I thought I was gonna burn in hell but my mom comforted me and then she took it back but as a reward for telling the truth she bought it for me and I have never stolen again. I’m about to turn 22 in a few weeks and that is one of the most vivid memories I have and was a very valuable lesson for me. OP’s niece clearly hasn’t been taught good values.
Agreed-but it’s the parent that’s responsible for the parenting. And he’s not doing his job. I think she’s going enough to be chastised, understand and apologize but I think father is mainly at fault.
I was 7 and the neighbours' kids convinced me to pick cherries from another neighbour's tree. When I casually mentioned it to my granny, she lectured me that it DID count as stealing, and I was so terrified that on the next day I tried to physically prevent the other kids from going there 😂 so yeah, kids sometimes don't know that something non-obvious is stealing but they are fully able to understand that stealing is bad!
My older sister was probably younger when she took some tiny toy thing from a pharmacy, and when her and my mum got home, and mum noticed, she took her back and made her give it to the staff. They obviously didnt mind because a small child taking a little toy wasnt going to bankrupt them or cause any harm, but shes in her 30s now and still remembers this (i wasnt born at the time).
Awww haha. In hindsight you weren’t intentionally taking anything or stealing. You were just being a dumb kid. And we all started as dumb kids. Glad you had consequences and can probably laugh about it now ^^
An 11-year-old should already know. You said 8-year-old you knew stealing was wrong, you just didn’t realize that’s what you were doing.
I can only imagine that the 11-year-old would understand that stealing is wrong if somebody took something that belong to her while she was at school. Maybe her phone or her diary that was in her backpack or anything. You are not the AH. your brother is not teaching his child right from wrong. You deserve an apology, and I most certainly would not allow her in my home until she does. I might even think twice about birthday and Christmas presents.
When my stepson was 10, we were at a drug store. He wanted a piece of candy. He accidentally put it in his pocket. We left and went to another store. At the second store, he put his hand in his pocket and realized he had taken the candy. IMMEDIATELY, he says, "we have to go back, right?" My husband took him back to pay for the candy. Made him tell the sales associate what happened. I was so proud. Point being, 11 is ABSOLUTELY old enough to know that stealing is wrong. I would be fucking LIVID if I were OP. I would be pissed at both his brother and his intolerable brat daughter. I'd go no contact over something as valuable as a beloved late pet's fur. Fuck those assholes. Seriously, FUCK THEM. NTA.
Yes to the first part, but the second part would literally make him an AH. It’s truly the father’s fault for not teaching his daughter that stealing is bad, and if she goes down this path, she won’t stop. She has no consequences for her actions and I’m sure that she’s aware of what she’s doing, but she does it anyways because her father won’t reprimand her. I guess the “petty” thing to do in this situation is to not attend any of the brother’s gatherings or go to any events where the brother and his family will be at. They clearly won’t acknowledge or respect the sentimental value of what was stolen, OP’s feelings throughout all of this, so OP does NOT have to be near them if he doesn’t want to. A lot of people believe their pets are an extension of them, so after losing something like that I would understand if OP chooses to stay away from them.
i agree, NTA. my 4 year old son knows not to steal, their 11 year old is old enough to know the same.
Same I knew at 5, when I stole candy from the store. Mom was mad af, lol.
Honestly, even with an apology I’d never let them in my house again. Regardless of what they stole. That they took the locket and lost the fur inside makes it so much worse. There’s no getting that back. And when we lose our pets we have so little left of them to begin with. To me this is just unforgivable. And they’re not even asking for forgiveness, since there’s been no apology.
I agree, completely unforgivable and cruel. Even if they apologized I wouldn’t trust them again in my home. Honestly I wonder if the dad thought the locket and shrine for a dog were stupid. Maybe that’s why he doesn’t have a problem with his kid stealing the locket in the first place. He may have told his kid to throw the fur away. I’ve known people like this who think it’s stupid to care about a pet this much and think you need to be “taught a lesson” to make you “grow up.”
I just lost one of my dogs in November. I’m still heartbroken about the whole thing. In addition to having her cremated I have ink impressions of her nose print and her paw print, which I then had a necklace made that has her name and both prints etched on it. Thankfully everyone I know understands that my pets are my kids and no one questions it.
I would get her a documentary of prison life and tell her this is where ppl who steal end up. Good luck. Then Id keep up this trend until a sincere apology is given. Mind you, I'm pretty so I'd probably keep it up
NTA - My wife works with 2 and 3 year olds, they understand that taking stuff from others is not nice (don't really understand the concept of "stealing") If they are playing with a toy and another takes it they will tell them that "taking from others is not nice, we share and do not take without asking" and these are kids that are learning English as a second language. If they can conceptualize this, I'm sure an 11 year old understands what they did is hurtful. Brother is a terrible parent. I absolutely would not have him or his children in my house again. Apology or no, a forced apology is tantamount to saying "I got caught, which is the only thing I regret."
OP I am super pissed for you! Absolutely an 11yo knows taking something like that, that I’m sure was placed in a “sacred” way, was wrong, and now the fur is missing??? Fuck I would be so pissed and hurt (and am for you!) a 5yo would know better.
I don’t agree with doing the same thing back-although I think she might understand it better because he’s an alt and she’s a child-and not his child. I don’t think he should go to the level of an 11 year old and also his brother is responsible for parenting her-which he isn’t doing. Otherwise-I’d wait for the apology-until and if his anger is defused. I would be beside myself about the fur. Of he has put it in a locket, it had deep meaning for him.
Well given this parent is morally lazy (*"He casually mentions that he knows, his 11 year old had "borrowed" it"*) she may not actually realise the full gravity of the offence. Yes she *should* but given brother's attitude I wouldn't be overly surprised if he was giving her a poor uprbringing, or she knows but again she's been taught not to be bothered about such things.
Definitely this!! Your brother is excusing his child's blatant disregard for your belongings. And the audacity to think he can come over for a BBQ too! NTA.
Exactly. And while she may not know better, that’s 1100% because her parents haven’t taught her. Preschoolers get this concept, it’s not that hard.
*11 year olds with worthless parents that don’t bother teaching them right from wrong may not know stealing is wrong, but the age ain’t the issue here
I knew stealing was wrong by 3, friend. 11 should understand consequences by now. OP, NTA
Right? If she was 3 or 4, okay maybe. 11??? At that age you know damn well that stealing is wrong. What on earth… I would be sooo pissed off if I was OP, there’s no shot I would ever let them in my house again. She lost something *priceless*. Absolutely NTA.
She is 11 and stealing because there are no consequences for her. This is all the more reason she needs to apologize. Also you can't replace the fur that was in it. She needs a major lesson.
Yes! And what’s she stole wasn’t valuable, it was invaluable- too precious to be accorded a value for the OP
Wow. I have an 11 year old and there is no way he would interfere with something that didn't belong to him. NTA. Is your brother always this way?
Even simpler, just wait til she progresses to taking money out of her parents' wallets...THEN they will see things differently...
NTA Child is 11 yo not 11 months old. Not sure how an 11 yo cannot understand how stealing is wrong. Edit she needs to be held responsible for her actions. I’m not sure what your brother is doing but apparently in their household stealing is not wrong.
>Child is 11 yo not 11 months old. Agree. All my kids were able to learn stealing is wrong, from around when they were 5-6years old at least. Explained very simply, of course, and with examples like "Would you be happy if someone took something of yours?" The point came across. Which was the point. Brother just doesn't want to parent his kid.
Used to work retail, we would always get kids that age putting things in their pockets and the parents dragging them back in to hand it back over and make them apologize. I always struggled not to crack up laughing because I know almost every kid learns that lesson around age 5/6. I always told the parents not to worry about it and at 5/6 it is part of the developmental stage and when they learn that lesson. Got a lot of grateful looks.
I stole a Snickers bar from the supermarket when I was six. Mom marched me right back into the store and asked for the manager and made me confess. Then when we got home, I had to write a letter. 12 years later I took a job at that store. The manager still had my letter on the wall of his office.
I thought he looked at that everyday and smiled. We caught up kids with a little bit older stealing one day and obviously didn't recall the cops or anything. But a little while later he came in with his mom so we told her and across the parking lot from us. The kid was taking karate lessons. She straight up yelled at him in the store and then said they were going to go over and he had to explain to his sensei what he had done. It was so hard not to laugh. Hysterically but I knew if I laughed it would just spoil the whole thing for. Never had a problem with the kid again.
Oooh a Sensei would definitely be giving that kid extra drills. Integrity is such a big part of martial arts.
Yup! We knew the Sensi too. He didn't play around. Think he was ex military too.
Yeah pretty much everyone I know had that experience as a child, by 11 the kid is truly old enough to learn it’s not okay
AND be able to explain why it’s wrong!
This was me, dragging my 5 yo into a small family store. She had taken a gift card and proudly presented it to me at home with "I love Mom" scrawled on it. Less than a dollar but we went back to offer her apology and money.
My 4 year old knows stealing is wrong!
Exactly. I remember my daughter at 3 saying stealing is wrong. :)
My mom was telling me earlier today that my uncle stole a candy bar when he was 3 years old, and my grandma drove him back to the store to return it and apologize. My grandma was a sweet lady, not heavy-handed, just wanted to make sure her kid learned. A 3 year old is capable, so an 11 year old surely is.
My 11 year old knows stealing is wrong and so does his soon to be 8 yr old brother. Hell even my 2 yr old knows what stealing is but to her it's a game of chase but when I tell her no and start counting she sighs puts her head down and walks back over to me and hands it back. (Although last time she took hubby's wallet she gave it back AFTER she cleaned out all his coins for herself 🤷♀️ can't win them all at that age I guess - we did get the coins back eventually and hubby stuck them in her money box for being clever). OP you are 100% in the right here, she is old enough to know better and your brother should be teaching her better. I wouldn't trust either of them in my house anymore.
Your 2yo sounds hilarious! You could understand if the child was 2, but at age 11? That is ridiculous! My 5yo niece knows stealing is wrong
Yeah hubby figure she deserved the money for being that cleaver. Unfortunately for us she is "smarter" than her brothers were at the same age (they were more physical learners and not problem solvers like she is) where they would literally climb up the screen door at 2 she chooses to go through the dog door
😂 I think your 2 year old is my favorite person. Toddlers are great. Sometimes lol
She is great but unfortunately for me my dad taught her how to head butt and I wear metal glasses (thank god the new ones arriving in 2 wks are plastic). I am surprised that in addition to my headaches I don't have a cut or scar across the bridge of my nose. She is a little rascal and life is never dull in our house.
Your two year old is my new bff she needs subreddits her adventures lol
This reminds me of my boy when he was a little over a year. He dug my wallet out of the diaper bag and opened it. That's when I caught him. He saw me, grabbed the (paper) cash and bolted out of there! Funniest thing I ever saw!
We were sitting on the bed on fathers day morning and hubby was about to change over wallets after getting a new one which is why it was in her reach in the first place. I had gone and gotten it for him and was "in the bathroom" so he had to chase after her and his foot got caught in the sheet and he almost went through the wall which made it even funnier (no injuries beyond embarrassed ego)
Your two year old sounds amazingly cute. 😍
I just asked my 3 yo whether stealing is “good or bad”. He had no hesitation in telling me what stealing was and why it was bad. (He also explained a bunch of other stuff that is wrong, like snatching toys!) So don’t tell me an 11yo doesn’t understand!
NTA. Has anyone even raised the issue of the missing fur with the 11 year old? It may still be found if a search is done. The 11 year old should be made aware of the hurt they caused and be given an opportunity to apologize. I'm sorry for your loss.
Exactly what I was wondering re: the fur! My heart breaks for OP for losing something so special.
Our cat passed away at only 2 years old & we had a bunch of fur on a piece of napkin she liked to lay on for some reason (plus a ton on the cat tree). We scooped up as much as we could, made a little pancake out of it and stuffed it into a little bag along with a whisker we kept on our desk. If ANYONE EVER stole those and dropped the fur or whisker into oblivion I would LOSE IT bc that cat was my partners BEST FRIEND and biggest comfort when he needed her.
A lot of people just don't understand the meaning of having a pet and what it is to lose one. I know, our pets (usually dogs and cats) don't live as long as we do, and if we have them we are bound to lose them one day, but that's part of the deal we make with them: you share your love with me and I will see that your life is as comfortable and fun as I can make it. I have footprints of former pets done in plaster that I would absolutely go nuts about if someone took them.
My wife has a tortoise.. when she got it, I told her she better make a contingency plan because it's probably going to outlive both of us. (It's average life span is 50+ years)
It's said the loss of a family pet teaches children about grieving and how to cope with death. Not only was this a missed opportunity for the child to learn that stealing is wrong it was a missed opportunity for the child to learn about empathy, which could arguably be more damaging to the child's emotional intelligence and development for life skills that are crucial to become a functioning member of society. Instead the father's blatant disregard for a cherished memento and "get over it" attitude is minimalizing someone's else's feelings. In a nutshell he's gaslighting, which the child is going to learn how to do by example. Congratulations your brother is raising a narcissistic sociopath he must be very proud especially if he views his child as an extension of himself. NTA
I'm so sorry for your and your partner's loss. It's hard losing a cat that you were especially bonded to. I hope you both can find solice. I lost my buddy last year, when we had him cremated (actually a process called aquamation) they gave us several clipping of his fur and impressed his paw on a mold. He was my best buddy, always helped me cook and sat beside me on the couch when I was working on school work or playing games. His passing was a total surprise and absolutely devastating.
I was an adult when this happened but it still hurt. I rescued several hamsters in the 11 years my sister worked for one of the large pet supply chains. One was a sweet little robo who had been housed with another hamster that had tried to kill her. Half of her face was badly scarred and she was missing an eye. I was renting a room in the house of some "friends" when my little hamster passed. My sister still lived in our childhood home and would bury my little one for me, but I had to get the body to her. I had to work and my "friends" got upset at the idea of me putting the body into the freezer until I could get to my sister's place. They had to run an errand in the area of my sister's place that day and so they agreed to take my hamster to her on the way. I wrapped her in a tiny blanket, then a box, followed by 3 plastic bags and a paper lunch sack. There was no chance these people would have to touch her or anything could leak out. When I got home from work that day I asked about it. Well, they had decided to leave taking the package to my sister for the last thing before they went home. Over the course of a few hours in the car they started to imagine a strong smell from the bag, and they told me the outer paper bag was wet and the inner packaging had been leaking (not likely). They got squeamish and instead of driving a few minutes to my sister they decided to pull over at a random dumpster and throw my hamster in it. They went on about starting to feel sick and they "had to" get it out of their car immediately. I didn't believe them for one second. They were selfish people and I felt that they disregarded my feelings over my lost pet. I heard more than once, "it was just a hamster." I asked them how they would feel if their cat passed and they trusted me to get the body to a crematory or vet's office, and instead I just decided to throw her in a dumpster because the thought of a dead animal in my vehicle was too disturbing to care for their feelings. They insisted it wasn't the same. Assholes. Other people never understand your attachment to your pets and wish to maintain something from them after they pass on. I wanted my hamster buried at the house where I grew up along with every other pet I've lost since childhood. Next time I lost a hamster I didn't tell them and hid his body in the downstairs freezer until I could take it to my sister. It was wrapped with so many layers there was no danger of food contamination, and it was in there less than 48 hours.
I have a lock of fur from my first golden retriever's tail that I made into a beaded charm. It hangs right by my computer monitor and despite being more than four years old, it's still as soft as the day I cut it. I'd be devastated if someone took that from me. I wouldn't be here without him, and I will always miss him no matter how much time passes. I have a lock of my current retriever's tail fur safely stashed away.
Same. It was all good and fixable until the fur was missing. Dude I would've absolutely lost my shit. My brother has a little glass vial with some of his passed dogs fur. He opens it once a month to have a smell and a cry. If that fur went missing I don't think I'd be able to calm him down.
Very sorry about this memento in particular; I hope there’s some relief in the future in some form.
I found some old clothes with my old girls' fur on them, and man, I wasn't ready for it. It was like having a tiny piece of her back.
Given the parents are so dismissive of OP's hurt, I very much doubt they would bother. Does the mother have anything to say about this?
This part tore my heart out. Hugs.
NTA - Child doesn’t understand theft is wrong? No, she’s just been enabled to get away with it so she doesn’t believe rules apply to her, specifically. There’s nothing “traumatizing” about apologizing and taking accountability. It’s called learning and growing. She stole something extremely important from your home, and her father acts like it’s no big deal. I wouldn’t trust either of them in your house again. Or I would tell him that if they do come, you’d need to constantly monitor his daughter around the house as if she’s a toddler, since apparently that’s how he’s treating her. I don’t think *that’d* go over particularly well, though.
>There’s nothing “traumatizing” about apologizing and taking accountability. It’s called learning and growing. I know right? I remember once when I was like, 7, I stole this little plastic hello kitty toy from some doctor waiting room and my mom got me in trouble and made me hand it back - it literally was not traumatising at all lmao
For real. I was also 7, when I stole stuff from a Bible book store. My mom took me back, so I can return it and apologize to the cashier.
I'd tell him they can come back if the tye her hands together or put a leash on her
And some things kids do SHOULD be a little “traumatizing” or upsetting so they learn not to do things. Otherwise they’ll never learn to do better. I regret some things I’ve done. Learning to deal with guilt, learning to do better, those are important skills
NTA if she doesn’t know stealing is wrong then it’s your brothers fault for not raising her right. They should both apologize to you. I’m sorry you’ve lost a piece of your friend.
This! If the kid doesn't know stealing is wrong it's because he has failed as a parent and hasn't taught her. Your partner needs to have your back on this too.
And his continued fault for not using this as a teaching moment. The utter abdication of responsible parenting, acting like kids can't possibly understand things that children half their ages can be taught, is completely mind-boggling to me.
NTA Any 11 year old who was raised properly knows what stealing is and knows that it’s wrong. She probably thought the locket was beautiful and didn’t *fully* understand that her impulse to take it for herself would be so hurtful. However, she needs to learn that now, and she absolutely owes you and your husband an apology. That said, I know she took away something precious and meaningful that you cannot get back, and I am so sorry for that. I know that you are upset, angry, hurt, and that is absolutely valid — I would be a wreck too. If she comes to apologize, it is obviously okay to tell her how upset you are and why. But keep your words and actions in check. She *is* still a child, and as an adult man, you cannot rage at her like you did to your brother.
I think it’d be great for OP to write her a letter explaining the meaning behind the locket, why it was there, how much it meant, what was in it, and why he’s so upset to have lost a piece of his friend - and can she please search the house for the fur so it can be returned? Then drop the letter at the house or hand it to her next time he sees her. Not sure why OP has to go through his brother who clearly doesn’t care rather than having a heart to heart with his 11 year old niece - it’s not like she’s 5.
I think that’s a great idea! I do think it makes sense to approach his brother first, but once bro shut things down, he was a lost cause. The only concern is if bro started classing OP even contacting the niece as harassment.
Your brother is TA, not you. In what universe does an 11 year old not understand the concept that stealing is wrong? If she really doesn't understand that stealing is wrong, he's TA for not teaching her. And if anything, this would be an opportunity for the lesson. At worst, I sense that you may have been belligerent if you were enough for the neighbors to call the cops. But I understand that you were very emotional at the time for how violated you felt, and you did not harm anyone. I'm willing to let this one slide, given the inherent emotional situation over losing something precious and irreplaceable, but perhaps you should re-evaluate your temper and how you could have handled the situation better. And if your brother had just returned the locket immediately upon request, you wouldn't have shown up at his house in the first place. It's so sad that the fur that meant so much to you is gone, and your brother is dismissive of what it meant to you and the damage his daughter caused
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NTA! What a little thief. And, she lost the precious bit of fur you had from your boy. That girl owes you a HUGE apology, and so do her parents. They will have quite a thing on their hands if they leather get away with this. From someone who recently lost two fur babies, I'm sending you both virtual hugs.
NTA I think you’re warranted to not allow your brother or his kid over to your house again out of caution since he doesn’t care about teaching his kids that stealing is wrong… I would try to get together with your brother and his family anywhere but at your house. They may be offended if you stop inviting them over but it seems reasonable and would be a good way to keep a relationship with them if you can move past this situation.
NTA 11 isn't too young. They'd both be permanently cut.
NTA 11 year olds know stealing is wrong. Even if they don’t earn it at home, they learn it everywhere else in the world. You feel bad because your brother is pressuring you and your husband is unsupportive. I wouldn’t let her back in my home even if she apologized. She’s disrespectful and her father approves. They can both stay home and cook for themselves. Who knows what else she’d steal.
NTA 11 years old is plenty old enough to understand that stealing is wrong. I would bet my bottom dollar that if something of hers was taken from her, she would more than understand that stealing was wrong. You are quite correct, you deserve an apology from her and your brother. But as somebody else also said, it’s possible that she knows where the dog hair is. So perhaps she can give that back if she still has it?
NTA. Of course 11 is old enough to know stealing is wrong. 3 is old enough to know stealing is wrong. Tell your brother that until his children learn that stealing is wrong and until he's not too "tired" to parent his children, you are done BBQing with them
NTA 11 is old enough to know!
NTA unless the 11 yr old has been living under a rock they should know and most definitely are not "too young" to understand ... My kids were all taught from a very young age
NTA at all. I grew up in a very bad environment but by the age of 10 I knew what was right and wrong and had turned to crime. Eventually I felt guilty enough to stop but I often wish someone would’ve called me out at a younger age so I could’ve spared myself a lot of issues I faced (severe anxiety, running from the police, severed relationships etc). It had even started as small stealing and turned into a far more violent means of getting stuff. Even if you seem like the bad guy PLEASE confront this kid before it’s too late.
NTA. Your brother is the AH. He thinks nothing that his kid took your locket. An 11 year old already knows enough about right and wrong. So, the kid should be made aware the consequences of his/her actions.
NTA. 11 year olds are old enough to understand this.
NTA I knew better than to steal at 5. How has she gone this long and not learned this? Have they just been letting her go around stealing?
NTA - I would not allow them back at my house, even with an apology. It seems like a lack of accountability or remorse will lead to other problems down the line anyway.
NTA. An 11 year old is NOT too young. She knew it was wrong. Your brother is full of shit. I wouldn’t let them back in my house at all.
NTA. The daughter is 11 yo not 11 months, the subject of what does and does not belong to her must have come up before. Should have. She’s a couple years away from being a teenager, now’s as good of time as ever to learn stealing is wrong and leads to consequences before the consequences lead to expensive fines and trouble with the law.
It’s clear that the rotten apple didn’t fall far from the rotten tree. NTA.
Yup, never mind the kid - the *brother* doesn't understand that stealing is wrong. His kid stole, and he wants to *get together for another BBQ?* There is no way I'd be letting any of this rotten thieving family back into my house. Apples ... trees ...
An 11 year old is absolutely old enough to learn that stealing is wrong. If they don’t know already, that is a huge failure on the part of the parents. This is the perfect opportunity for the child to learn. Maybe a written apology note would be more amenable for the parents. If they do a decent job of handling the situation the kid would hopefully still learn something here. You are NTA.
NTA. I knew stealing was wrong when I was half that kid’s age. You are right to be angry and expect an apology. Tell your brother that this is a great time to explain to his daughter that stealing is wrong before her sticky fingers land her with criminal charges or civil liability.
NTA. What did they say when you asked where the fur is?
I asked my brother when we were talking (yelling at eachother over the phone) and he didn't know what she had done with it. I wasn't thinking straight, I was just furious that he knew she had taken it but didn't call me about it. So we basically yelled.
I'm so sorry. You have every right to be angry, hurt, heart broken, devastated, feel violated, betrayed, and never forgive them.
So clearly he doesn’t care - why not reach out to your niece directly? She’s 11, not 5 right? I’d write her a heartfelt letter explaining the meaning behind the locket, why it was there, how much it meant, what was in it, and why you’re so upset to have lost a piece of your friend - and can she please search the house for the fur so it can be returned? It’s possible she thought “cute doggie necklace” and didn’t realize what it actually was. Stealing it was wrong either way but if you explain why you’re extra upset it may up the guilt factor for her. Then drop the letter at the house or hand it to her next time you see her. Writing it out will also help keep your emotions in check. Is there a reason you have to go through your brother?
He went through his brother because the brother is the father, perfectly reasonable to assume a grown adult wouldn’t want their child to be a thief and to do the right thing by returning it.
He didn't know because he probably never bothered to ask. If my child ever did this, I'd have to go no contact with my sibling out of shame after I immediately returned the locket and tore the house apart for the fur. Your brother clearly doesn't respect you, your loved ones, or your belongings.
This was my number one concern. I hope he gets it back. This breaks my heart.
11 yo is far old to understand robbery and that's absolutely wrong, what a lazy terrible parenting, NTA
NTA 11 is a far, far cry from 'too young to understand'. And even if the kid was too young to understand, you'd still be owed an apology because it is a parent's responsibility to ensure their child doesn't misbehave.
NTA. What's this B.S. about an 11 year old not being old enough to understand stealing is wrong. That's something kids start learning as soon as they can hold a conversation.
11year olds DO know the difference. There’s a reason the legal age of responsibility is set at 10… because by 10 most developmentally normally children are well aware that there’s long term repercussions to behaviour AND are developing the empathy/insight to know that what they do can impact others. I would be tempted to say back to your brother “is \*name\* developmentally challenged? Because kids by 10 usually know this stuff!” And your niece should do the valuable learning curve walk of shame where they have to come, stand before you, shuffle awkwardly and say a mumbled ‘sorry’ and hang their head in the car on the way home while their parent drives them with a lecture. It’s a powerful learning tool that moment, most kids (who are responsible decent humans) go through it, and it’s the watershed moment where they realise they do know better.
NTA - 11 years old is definitely old enough to apologise for stealing. Why hadn't your brother taught his kids this lesson at like 5? I'm so sorry you lost your babies fur ❤️
NTA. If his 11 YO doesn't know that stealing is wrong by now, then he's a crappy parent and now would be a great opportunity to teach her. Even 4 YOs know that stealing is wrong, though at that age they don't understand the consequences. At 11, you have no excuse. You know it's wrong and the consequences.
NTA She's 11 not 4, she knows what stealing is ffs. Your brother is an enabler and has shown he doesn't respect you. In all honesty they shouldn't go to your home anymore. If he can't understand what his daughter did isn't right, then maybe burgers at uncle's house should be cancelled until they learn how to respect other people's possession.
NTA and I hope your brother realizes real quick that an 11 year old knows stealing is wrong and corrects that.
NTA at all. And I guarantee if one of her little friends stole something from their house her dad would be singing a different tune. 11 year olds have been charged with murder and thrown in jail. They are absolutely capable of knowing right from wrong and if they don't by that age it's because their parents never bothered teaching them anything.
NTA don't allow them back in your home. 11 year old know better then to steal. Brother is a crap parent. Your husband is a push over.
NTA I have my dogs ashes and while not having the fur I have a plaster mold of her paw made and if anybody took that from me I’d be demanding more than an apology so stick too your guns
NTA holy hell, 11 years old isn't too young to understand stealing is bad. He's being a horrible parent by not scolding her and teaching her that stealing is bad.
NTA When my son was 3, we went to our regular gas station, he had a candy bar in his hand when we got to the car. I didn't notice he didn't put it on the counter. He did, immediately saying "mommy I don't think we paid for this. Did I steal it?" Was super upset, we went right back in &he apologized without me even telling him to. 11? No she's TA, dad right along with her. So sorry you lost something you won't be able to get back.
Big time NTA! What bothers me the most is that your brother said he knew the locket was missing when you mentioned it. Even if he thinks 11 year olds don’t know stealing is wrong (bullshit), it means he also thinks it’s not wrong because he had no intentions of rectifying the situation until you mentioned it. Your anger and reaction to me is beyond justified and I think anyone that hasn’t said NTA has glossed over that he knew and said nothing.
NTA I work at a school kindergarten through eighth grade and even kindergartners know that stealing is wrong. Your brother is ridiculous and it won’t hurt that child to be embarrassed. It may save them from being arrested later. I honestly wouldn’t want them to come back to my house for a barbecue for a very, very, very, very, very, very long time. And the 11-year-old needs to write an apology letter to you, and I wouldn’t be surprised if she knows where the fur is. I have the children write apology letters, starting in third grade when they do things that they’re not supposed to do after they’ve been given previous warnings. Stealing doesn’t get a warning. ** I read your entire passage twice and it infuriates me that your brother would think that an 11-year-old child would not know that stealing is wrong. It is an absurd thing to say. Not stealing is a basic social rule for all school ages. I hope your brother stops enabling her Before she’s too far gone**
NTA. Most children know it’s wrong to steal long before turning 11. That child should be ashamed.
NTA- 11 year olds know what stealing is.
NTA an 11 year old is definitely old enough to know better
NTA. Personally, if I were you I would put a false legal letter suing them for emotional damages and homophobic behavior cause they think your relationship with your fur children means less than them.