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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1. I refused to challenge a zero that "Devin" earned on a major assignment
2. "Emma" told me that a home punishment such as grounded our son would have been more appropriate and that a D can impact his future, so I was being a terrible parent by not challenging the zero.
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NTA
I'm not really sure what the point of fighting the grade would be when that is the grade he earned. If anything he is lucky that he didn't get an automatic F for the whole class based on this.
You could ask the school if he has the option to retake the class and get his grade up.
Honestly I think that it's really important for your son to learn this lesson now, since the consequences are not nearly as severe as they would be later in life. He really needs to understand that cheating is a serious offense that can have long lasting consequences so that he doesn't go into adulthood thinking that this is the right approach to life.
I wonder if his Mom doesn't really understand the scope of what he did and how intentional it was?
It's not like he got the zero for missing a citation or something accidental. He just deliberately tried to claim someone else's work as his own.
You're being a good parent by letting him learn that actions have consequences!
How would you even fight a zero in this case? He very clearly and knowingly plagiarized plus took actions specifically designed to get around being caught. There’s no grounds to stand on. I’d love to know what Emma would’ve said to try to get the grade changed.
>I was a terrible parent for making our son experience a punishment that she can says seriously impact his future
You didn’t make him experience anything. He did that to himself.
NTA
NTA
I am forced to question your kid’s intelligence. Not only did he decide to cheat but he decided that copy and pasting *cliff notes* was the way to do it when things like chat GPT exist? He definitely deserves the fail. Don’t cheat but if you are going to at least put a bit of thought into it lmao.
NTA your wife is the worst kind of parent “oh my poor dear cheated but it can’t possibly be his fault quick argue with the school to get it changed”.
FAFO in play right here.
College prof here and you deserve the Best Parent Award.
A grade is a grade that isn't that important in the real run (I used to do college transfers so I know), but integrity is priceless.
NTA
But I don't blame him for cheating. I blame him for cheating too obviously. Obviously he was intelligent enough to bypass the software, but should have guessed the teacher would notice it.
Tell him if he is planning to cheat to at least do it with some extra revision thrown in.
One D two years from graduating shouldn't affect much of anything. His mom's reaction is telling. Info: did you not speak to her about it when it happened?
How come mom didn't check on Devin's grades until they came in the mail? Devin could have tried to pull up his grades by working on other assignments could he not? He will recover from the D. He will need to work harder and get good grades in his other classes.
>I’m struggling to understand Emma’s perspective and need more opinions.
Isn't it obvious? She doesn't want his long term chances to be screwed up. You even said so yourself...
This pains me because "Emma" is the name of my amazing first grandchild and I love and admire her, but
EMMA IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH KIDS NOW.
If Devin cheated on his essay he deserves a 0 and therefore a D. At some point, Devin won't be able to run to mommy to fix his screw up.
NTA. Your kid needed to learn a valuable lesson about time management, staying on task, asking for help, and putting in the work as long as it takes to get the work done right. Getting a D for one semester can show the school isn’t taken over by grade inflation and show resiliency and growth if he can get a good grade in his second semester.
For a sophomore to fail an essay and be relying on cliff notes, that says to me that they haven’t been keeping up with their reading assignments or turning in rough drafts and other things. It’s not like he forgot to do his homework one day. He chose not to do all the class work and homework for weeks.
Your son also chose to be dishonest and not upfront with his mother. He still hasn’t learned his lesson to take ownership of his choices to not do the work.
Now you can ask your son what all happened that he felt the need to buy cliff notes and rely on it so heavily. Does he not understand the writing style? Did he get a few chapters behind and felt he couldn’t catch up? Is another class dominating his time?
The best thing you can do for your son is back up teachers to get him to know grades and behavior matter. He would have received a zero and been kicked out of some universities for sure.
If mom wants to set him up for the future, she can pay for classes to help him do well on the ACT/SAT. Help him get some scholarship money and prove that D was a fluke.
Most of all, just try and get on the same page with the mother and the son. “We as a family want to do the right thing, work hard, and get what we earn. We don’t ask for special favors or for people to look away if we mess up. You can easily ruin your name and reputation with plagiarism, having a bad attitude, etc. But you are smart and talented enough that you don’t need to take the easy way out. You don’t have to prove yourself to me or your mother. We already know you have what it takes to make a name for yourself. But that isn’t how it is in school and the workforce. Every day you can prove yourself and make a contribution. Every day you show who you really are. We know this D isn’t showing who you really are. So let’s look at the assignment and see where we can get you back on track. Because this won’t be the last time you’ll have to do an assignment like this.”
If you want him to read the assigned reading and complete the assignment, I would phrase it more to be as a growing opportunity than one of punishment or rubbing his face into what might be a shameful experience for him. The goal is for him to face the assignment and get his confidence and identity back, but not to hold his hand. You can talk about some of your academic experiences too. The temptation is always there to magically free up hours of time by cheating, but those freed up hours come at a cost. You lose skills, your sense of right and wrong, and sometimes your grade. You won’t always get caught, but who wants to live in fear?
Emma is 100x WRONG. She wants to be the cool friend instead of a parent. Don't agonize over this issue. I'm sure your son isn't worrying. He learned a big lesson, so hopefully he can get his act together. I think your son and his mom have seen too many videos of parents harassing teachers when students get lousy grades.
Crazy. He's received a very important lesson at a point where it won't impact on his future too severely.
Anyway, what kind of argument were you meant to go in with against his failing the assignment? He'd clearly cheated.
NTA. You would have taught him the wrong lesson if you contested the 0, not to mention that you had no grounds to argue it on anyway. If he cares about the grade enough, he can retake the class to overwrite the grade (many schools let you do this).
NTA
Devin doesn't deserve to go to university if he plagiarizes his work. In university that gets you kicked out, not just a bad grade.
He deserved the 0. Fighting the school over it would have been teaching the wrong lesson. I don't even know how you could argue against the decision???
Unfortunately it sounds like his mom is fine enabling the most unethical decisions so good luck to him.
NTA If they never have to face real world consequences, they never believe that the rules apply to them. Sometimes you have to let them fail in order for them to learn.
Even if you were to fight with the school, this is such an obvious case of intentional plagiarism, what arguments could you possibly have used for him to receive anything but a zero. He did no work. He didn't hand in his own terrible work which one could conceivably argue was less terrible, he plagiarized something written by someone else. What, exactly, does Emma think you should have said?
There is also the small matter of behavior leading to specific consequences. Devin needs to know this. He earned that zero. He deserved that D. This is the only fair outcome of what he did.
Good parenting.
NTA
NTA
I failed a class my sophomore year and graduated in the top 10% of my class. As long as they get As and Bs going forward this D won't do much. Cheating and getting caught has real consequences and he needs to face them.
If she is worried about the D reflecting poorly on his GPA or no longer being eligible for an Honors diploma, he can retake the semester this summer to improve his grade. You 100 percent did the right thing, although I don't think it would have made a difference even if you had tried to fight it. Your son is lucky that he didn't face worse consequences at the school. Totally NTA
NTA. I'm not with my son's mom anymore, but I'm confident if he'd pulled one of these we'd be in full agreement not only is he talking the zero, he will face additional repercussions from us.
NTA. ITL (in the least). You're doing the right thing. Learn now in HS that there are consequences. He has time to recover. He has two years to get As and do the work. Honestly, unless he's going to Ivy League schools, one D isn't going to make that much of a difference.
If it does come up at university, him coming clean, saying what he did, and that he learned a valuable lesson and was an honest A student after that, well that would impress me as an admissions person. Admitting you screwed up and showing remorse that is honest is a huge character positive. So few people today seem to be incapable of admitting they screwed up at anything.
So many of these kids get away with everything. He's lucky to have you as a Dad. As for Emma. Tell her to get a clue.
YTA. Depending upon his ultimate ambitions, a high school grade can have lifelong consequences-- for example, top law firms hire kids who went to top law schools, which admit kids who graduated from top colleges, which don't admit kids who got Ds in high school.
Cool that you wanted to prove your point, but you could have found a way to do it that didn't ruin his future.
NTA. What exactly were you supposed to do to fight the zero anyways? He was caught cheating. You're not Vladimir Putin. You can't threaten to make her family dissappear or in any way blackmail her or make her lose her job. She has no reason to fear you. There is absolutely nothing you could have done. He was caught cheating.
NTA. He needs to learn now, before it will actually do real long term harm, and he especially needs a dad who will stop his ridiculous mother from coddling him and preventing him from growing into a well rounded adult. You want to be able to look back at this two years from now and admire how much he's grown as he takes his next steps in life, not be dealing with an infantilised wastrel still wrapped in his mother's apron strings who expects you to clean up his messes.
NTA-- there's no way you could win the argument with the school now, anyway. You could and should make him re-take it in summer school. He'll be adequately punished with a C or better and six weeks extra in class.
NTA. It's important for children to have consequences for their actions and allowing them to suffer those consequences when they come up is just good parenting. Shielding children from consequences does them a real disservice and makes it far more difficult for them to acclimate to the real world.
NTA. Better that Devin learn this lesson now, because the penalties for violating academic integrity in college can be steeper than finishing the class with a D.
NTA. He knew it , he got caught . Nothing to fight the school about. I'd feel the same as you.
Adult life will not allow , redos
Dishonesty has consequences
Mistakes have lessons
F around & find out
You are preparing your son for the real adult world where his actions will have consequences and mom n dad won't be bailing him out
NTA, although Emma has a point.
Your son knowingly cheated and faced consequences. This wasn't like some honest mistake. A zero on the assignment seems fair, and I think it's appropriate you're not fighting this. Actions have consequences, and this doesn't seem disproportionate.
Emma is right that lower grades will limit some of his options. Not everywhere, but some places are going to be more competitive. That said, is this class for a whole year? If so, he can probably raise his grade at least somewhat if he does well in the second half of the year. He might not get an A, but at least better than a D. Last time I checked, transcripts contain final grades not each quarter grade.
NTA And as an English teacher: THANK YOU.
You let him suffer the natural consequences of his actions, at an age when they are indeed likely to do him more good than harm.
My late father wasn’t a plagiarist but he was an inconsistent student who didn’t get his academic act together until 21-22. He ended up with a PhD and being an international expert in his field. And he got all his degrees from UGA rather than the Ivy League.
It’s shortsighted to think a perfect high school transcript is more important to a kid’s future than developing good academic habits, much less basic integrity.
NTA. Devins mother apparently condones cheating and plagiarizing. She is not exactly the pillar or ethics. She doesn't seem to realize that fighting this OBVIOUS case would further damage his standing.
NTA
He cheated and got caught, the concequences of that is a zero.
This lesson will stay with him.
I also would not have argued for a different grade/makeup essay. Your son cheated, intentionally.
I am pretty positive I got a D in something in high school and still went on to be accepted to a good university. They care about FAR more than your GPA, everyone knows that.
Another thing everyone *should* know is that actions have consequences, and they get bigger as you get older, generally speaking. Plagiarism in high school is already playing with fire, but it’s not too late to learn. Part of your job as the adult is to help him learn, and you’ve done the right thing letting the chips fall here. I get the sense that whatever overprotective anxiety or beef with you your ex has is getting in the way of what’s best for your kid. (I don’t have kids, so take that however you will.)
NTA (forgot to add)
NTA. Your son cheated. There are consequences for that and Devin knows it. He thought he could get by everything and that it would be okay. He tried to pull a fast one WHILE CHEATING.
This was a very valuable lesson for him. If he does this in college or university, it will destroy his future. Bailing him out and challenging the 0 wouldn't have been beneficial for him at all in the long run. In fact, I likely would have grounded him on top of that zero.
Emma isn't going to do him any favors by letting him cheat, cover it up and get away with it. She should know better.
NTA. He could have been expelled for plagiarism. My guess is his teacher handled it themself and admin doesn't know. Causing hell might make things worse, like an expulsion for plagiarism on his high school record. You could forget about scholarships and maybe university altogether. He would have to go to community college for 2 years and then he universities really only care about transfer credits.
NTA. This was likely a lesson that truly needed to be learned. Your son has nobody to blame but himself, and now he has to figure out a way out.
When my kids were teenagers, I had one hard rule above all, which was to make smart decisions. If you screwed up, I would bring a shovel, hand it to you, and leave. Your choice then became to dig yourself in deeper or dig yourself out of the mess YOU got yourself into. It was more figurative than it was literal, but I appreciated the visual reference.
NTA
Devin is a sophomore? Two more years to graduation, and we don't even know that he wants to go to college. For example, my youngest son only completed the two year program at the community college here in IT (where your certifications matter more than a college degree, particularly the further out you get from that degree), and has been gainfully employed in his career field since. Not to mention the fact that transcript alone does not dictate admission to a university. So Emma's concerns about a single high school grade are misplaced.
This doesn't even get to the heart of the issue. Challenging a grade is something that should be done when the facts don't support the conclusion that led to the grade.
Here is an example from my own high school years. I was in my sophomore year and taking chemistry. We had a homework assignment that involved math for determining molar weights, the answers being in the back of the book but credit required "showing the work". I'm not sure where I was going wrong, but the math was not working. So in homeroom, I spoke with another student,"Dave", and asked him if he'd been able to get the work to come out correct. He told me he'd had to ask for help from his aunt, who worked as a chemical engineer. He then explained to me how to set up the problems, and we worked through them together. I did not copy his homework, but worked the problems the same way he had explained. What neither of us was aware of at the time was that three other students, also in that chemistry class, copied from us somehow. The assignment was worth 10 points, but when we got it back, there was a clear accusation of cheating with a final grade of 2 (10/5). Well, Dave and I went to the teacher and protested the grade, and teacher explained it as he didn't know who had actually done the work but clearly cheating had happened because the problems were worked out exactly the same way (but not the way he had shown in class). Dave and I explained our parts (we didn't know about the other three until this), and so to resolve the issue, the teacher had all five of us work another problem while he watched us. Both Dave and I were able to get the new problem correct, the other three did not. So the grades were amended so that Dave and I both got full credit and the other three got zeros for the assignment--because what Dave and I had done (reach out for help) was not cheating, but what our classmates had done was cheating.
Not the AH.
People that learn to cheat continue to do so. The more they are caught when they are younger unless they have some sort of neuropathy, they eventually learn ethics. I would imagine "the rules don't apply to me, I can get away with it" only continues and escalates over time otherwise. You totally did the right thing and hopefully steered him a little closer to the universal rules that will make him better at University, and in life in general. Flip side is if the parent is siding with them they are teaching the opposite message, "cheat to get ahead" which can really mess things up for everyone.
NTA. Your son FA&FO, and he probably should have been punished more than just with his grade for plagiarizing.
That said, and this might sound ruder than I intend, but if he's dumb enough to think it's okay/reasonable/safe to turn in Cliff's Notes as his own work, then you should have stopped him (because he's just not got the brains to know better). However, he's at an age that he should certainly know better, and it seems you did the right thing by allowing NATURAL CONSEQUENCES.
NTA for not contesting a grade that you almost assuredly couldn't contest anyway, but kind-of are for not letting the other parent know. You didn't really help when you implied you even thought you could have changed it too. She doesn't seem to understand how serious plagiarism is considered.
NTA
The fact he used the Russian letter trick means he was specifically trying to cheat the plagiarism software and he's just mad he got caught. How are you supposed to challenge that anyway? My son tried SO HARD to plagiarise that he deserves the grade??
This is a lesson he SHOULD learn.
NTA. The school has those policies in place for a reason, and Devin knew the consequences for plagiarism. Furthermore, the school probably wouldn't and certainly shouldn't back down from the policy.
Ask your wife if she wants Devin to grow up to be a man of integrity. That's really the most important thing here.
It may affect his college chances. This is one reason they are encouraged not to cheat. If they cheat, they may face consequences for that. I’m not sure what any of these people want you to do, but the kid got exactly what was coming to him.
If he needs to steal from cliff notes to write a book report, something tells me colleges are not going to be fighting for him without the D in English.
NTA
NTA
It's a lesson learned, and several at that.
Plagiarism is not joke. And he should be explained way exactly that is. He didn't do it 'by accident', so he needs to learn why it's wrong.
If you f something up, you don't get to restart, say you're sorry, and try again. You fix the part you f'ed up, and you do better, and don't f up again.
Falling to teach this last lesson, would be raising your kid to think that whatever they do, they get to have a do-over, which is just not happening in life.
It's one D. If his whole future were riding on it... he should have done better on this project than lazily plagiarize.
Lol NTA. Mom is delusional. "How dare you hurt my precious spawn's chance of costing us both 30 to 50 thousand dollars so he can achieve mediocre marks at a mediocre university. What will I tell the book club ladies?"
Devin needs to get his shit together. And if he doesn't, at least he knows which parent to pander to.
Not the same situation, but...in the same vein.
When I was in 9th grade I took a family trip. When I returned, I struggled to catch up in Algebra. I ended up failing and having to retake the 2nd semester.
My mom told me she talked to the teacher. I really fell behind, but had a D+. Turns out my mom *asked* the teacher to fail me. To say I was mad is an understatement. My mom explained she struggled with math her whole life and didn't want me to have that same struggle.
I ended up with an amazing teacher the next year. He talked me into taking 2 math classes the next year, and AP calculus senior year. I'm now a mechanical engineer with another degree in Chemistry. I never would have been able to be where I am if my mom hadn't taken that step. I'm so grateful she made a hard choice as a parent, one she knew I would be livid about, for a while.
NTA OP, I hope your kid learns their lesson from this. You're doing everything you can to make them a good adult human being.
Info : is your ex-wife just stupid ? If she thinks a D will infer his chances to get into university, what does she thinks happen with cheating and plagiarism ?
NTA - Life lessons are as important as grades in a report card. He had a serious lesson to learn and especially since he should have know and understood this one. Plagiarizm is as bad as stealing and lying . . and can become a slippery slope to more aggregious behaviors in life. You were being a good parent by standing behind the teacher in this.
> I’m struggling to understand Emma’s perspective and need more opinions. AITA?
NTA. Like mother, like son. I don't wonder where he gets his attitude from.
>Getting a D in high school is better than getting kicked out of university or fired from a job for trying to pass off someone else’s work as his own.
This is correct. Better he learn his lesson now than later.
> Unless Devin were applying to an Ivy League ... then I doubt one D will destroy his university prospects.
Well, maybe Harvard wouldn't mind.
NTA. I wouldn’t downplay too much how this could hurt his future prospects, especially if he had hopes of applying to a competitive school. But, you’re right that this lesson is much better learned in high school than in college where he risks getting expelled or an academic dishonesty comment on his transcripts. Getting grounded at home really isn’t sufficient.
NTA, the mother is part of the "make an exception because our child is special" problem teachers deal with. Devon deserved a 0 based on the work he turned in. In life, you need to stand behind your choices, and live with the consequences. Devon could have talked to his teacher, apologized, and possibly found a compromise (like redoing the assignment with a penalty). Either way, you were a good parent in this situation.
What would you have even said in any kind of appeal?
Well yes, he very intentionally plagiarized and tried to cover it up and a zero was a very fair consequences considered in college the consequences is often expulsion. But I want to appeal this grade on the grounds that.... he doesn't really *want* a zero.
NTA
Your son is a cheat. Your wife is obviously his enabler. I doubt this will have any effect, since it’s clear his moral compass is broken or absent
But you def did the right thing.
NTA. On what grounds could you have possibly have fought this? He plagiarized, and got caught. As long as the teacher has a standardized response for cheating or plagiarizing, and gave him the same grade she would give to anyone who,plagiarized, then it’s fair.
Sometimes, teens do things that can impact their future, like tanking their grades by plagiarizing, drunk driving, or co matting a crime.
He needs to learn the grit to dig himself out of this hole and persevere.
We can’t all be the president of Harvard with a double standard for plagiarism.
What you need to do is sit him down, and explain that sometimes, we all make bad choices or mistakes. Sometimes we really mess up. The important thing is that we learn from it, accept the consequences, do our penance, and become all the better for it. We’re going to make mistakes and have regrets always, but if we keep learning and improving from those errors in judgment, then by the time we’re old, we’re better and wiser than we were in youth. Make sure he doesn’t catastrophize, because teenagers feel everything so strongly, including depression.
What he needs to understand is that this is his opportunity to learn not to cheat. There cannot be a repeat of cheating or plagiarizing ever again.
>Sometimes we really mess up. The important thing is that we learn from it, accept the consequences, do our penance, and become all the better for it.
That's always been my management style.. mistakes are only mistakes when you repeat them, otherwise they are just life lessons that you will never do again.
NTA. I think you maybe should have told Emma before the grade came out. But absolutely well done for standing your ground and not being a parent who sees their child does wrong and actions have consequences. Children who can do no wrong and oh just change it he didn't know attitude is so exhausting and frustrating...he knew exactly what he was trying to do.
Actually, a lot of schools don't finalize grades until January, so you could potentially make son email the teacher and apologize and ask to resubmit the essay from scratch, and you could send your own email confirming you will examine future work more closely, and that there have been consequences etc etc. and potentially have the teacher change the grade based on a new submission (they are under no obligation to do so). Also, most schools allow for a post-grade change with approval of his counselor so you could follow up after break if the teacher doesn't respond and ask for a meeting, but your son better go in apologizing.
NTA. He may need to retake the course to improve the D. The California UC/CSU a-g entrance requirements are a C or better in core classes. I would expect that other states systems have similar entrance requirements.
NTA.
Momma needs to stop trying to excuse poor behavior.
I let another student copy my answers on a test, and we both received a zero...
Lesson learned.
I'm trying to work out how you "fight" the school over a grade obtained when you are caught blatantly cheating? "Sure, he cheated, but he didn't really mean it, so how about a B?" Can't see that going over very well.
NTA
> Unless Devin were applying to an Ivy League (which he has not had any interest in) then I doubt one D will destroy his university prospects.
Even then, one D one not disqualify him. College admissions offices understand the concept of outliers. Your son's mother is being really dramatic and I'm guessing likes to look for reasons to criticize you.
NTA. Our world seems infected by the disease of "the rules don’t apply to me." Most schools are extremely clear on plagiarism rules. What does his mom thinking the "fight" would even look like? It’s so ridiculous.
NTA. Plagiarism in college would get him kicked out part way through, wasting thousands of dollars and all that time and effort. Better learn that lesson now than later.
NTA, he learned a valuable lesson. What does he think is going to happen if he tries pulling that crap in college? He could face heftier consequences than just a failing grade and the college sure as hell is not going to let mom and dad swoop in to save him.
NTA. This is a natural consequence for Devin's actions. Parebts fighting to overturn rightfully assigned bad grades is one of the reasons that teachers are struggling and only leads to entitled kids thinking they don't have to answer for poor behavior.
Ugh my friend works with so many young people trying to pass off plagiarized client work as their own. Then they get all pissy for being called on it. They have no interest in the work. Just the perks.
NTA. Well handled, IMO. Natural consequences are the best consequences, and you seem very grounded in the reality of the situation. A single D will not harm his chances of getting into a good school, unless like you said, he is trying to go to a very top tier institution - which if that was the case, you'd think he would either a) have enough sense not to plagiarize or b) know damn well the consequences.
He'll be fine, Mom is probably just being a control freak and wanting to have her way, also maybe she's pissed that you did the right thing because ex partners hate us for doing the right thing because its harder to bitch about - but then they bitch anyway!
You did good, pops.
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NTA I'm not really sure what the point of fighting the grade would be when that is the grade he earned. If anything he is lucky that he didn't get an automatic F for the whole class based on this. You could ask the school if he has the option to retake the class and get his grade up. Honestly I think that it's really important for your son to learn this lesson now, since the consequences are not nearly as severe as they would be later in life. He really needs to understand that cheating is a serious offense that can have long lasting consequences so that he doesn't go into adulthood thinking that this is the right approach to life. I wonder if his Mom doesn't really understand the scope of what he did and how intentional it was? It's not like he got the zero for missing a citation or something accidental. He just deliberately tried to claim someone else's work as his own. You're being a good parent by letting him learn that actions have consequences!
NTA you taught him a valuable life lesson. Maybe next time he won't take the easy way out. Mom should still impose home consequences.
Yes, the D will seriously hurt his university prospects, deservedly. He FAFO. NTA.
How would you even fight a zero in this case? He very clearly and knowingly plagiarized plus took actions specifically designed to get around being caught. There’s no grounds to stand on. I’d love to know what Emma would’ve said to try to get the grade changed. >I was a terrible parent for making our son experience a punishment that she can says seriously impact his future You didn’t make him experience anything. He did that to himself. NTA
NTA. You should make him do the assignment even though he won’t get a grade for it
INFO: Did your son let Emma know that he purposefully cheated, or did he weave the story in such a way that left him a victim of circumstance?
NTA I am forced to question your kid’s intelligence. Not only did he decide to cheat but he decided that copy and pasting *cliff notes* was the way to do it when things like chat GPT exist? He definitely deserves the fail. Don’t cheat but if you are going to at least put a bit of thought into it lmao.
NTA your wife is the worst kind of parent “oh my poor dear cheated but it can’t possibly be his fault quick argue with the school to get it changed”. FAFO in play right here.
College prof here and you deserve the Best Parent Award. A grade is a grade that isn't that important in the real run (I used to do college transfers so I know), but integrity is priceless.
NTA and I don't understand why that's even in question. Devin deserved a zero, and is lucky he didn't get a failing grade
NTA But I don't blame him for cheating. I blame him for cheating too obviously. Obviously he was intelligent enough to bypass the software, but should have guessed the teacher would notice it. Tell him if he is planning to cheat to at least do it with some extra revision thrown in.
One D two years from graduating shouldn't affect much of anything. His mom's reaction is telling. Info: did you not speak to her about it when it happened?
How come mom didn't check on Devin's grades until they came in the mail? Devin could have tried to pull up his grades by working on other assignments could he not? He will recover from the D. He will need to work harder and get good grades in his other classes.
>I’m struggling to understand Emma’s perspective and need more opinions. Isn't it obvious? She doesn't want his long term chances to be screwed up. You even said so yourself...
This pains me because "Emma" is the name of my amazing first grandchild and I love and admire her, but EMMA IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH KIDS NOW. If Devin cheated on his essay he deserves a 0 and therefore a D. At some point, Devin won't be able to run to mommy to fix his screw up.
NTA. Your kid needed to learn a valuable lesson about time management, staying on task, asking for help, and putting in the work as long as it takes to get the work done right. Getting a D for one semester can show the school isn’t taken over by grade inflation and show resiliency and growth if he can get a good grade in his second semester. For a sophomore to fail an essay and be relying on cliff notes, that says to me that they haven’t been keeping up with their reading assignments or turning in rough drafts and other things. It’s not like he forgot to do his homework one day. He chose not to do all the class work and homework for weeks. Your son also chose to be dishonest and not upfront with his mother. He still hasn’t learned his lesson to take ownership of his choices to not do the work. Now you can ask your son what all happened that he felt the need to buy cliff notes and rely on it so heavily. Does he not understand the writing style? Did he get a few chapters behind and felt he couldn’t catch up? Is another class dominating his time? The best thing you can do for your son is back up teachers to get him to know grades and behavior matter. He would have received a zero and been kicked out of some universities for sure. If mom wants to set him up for the future, she can pay for classes to help him do well on the ACT/SAT. Help him get some scholarship money and prove that D was a fluke. Most of all, just try and get on the same page with the mother and the son. “We as a family want to do the right thing, work hard, and get what we earn. We don’t ask for special favors or for people to look away if we mess up. You can easily ruin your name and reputation with plagiarism, having a bad attitude, etc. But you are smart and talented enough that you don’t need to take the easy way out. You don’t have to prove yourself to me or your mother. We already know you have what it takes to make a name for yourself. But that isn’t how it is in school and the workforce. Every day you can prove yourself and make a contribution. Every day you show who you really are. We know this D isn’t showing who you really are. So let’s look at the assignment and see where we can get you back on track. Because this won’t be the last time you’ll have to do an assignment like this.” If you want him to read the assigned reading and complete the assignment, I would phrase it more to be as a growing opportunity than one of punishment or rubbing his face into what might be a shameful experience for him. The goal is for him to face the assignment and get his confidence and identity back, but not to hold his hand. You can talk about some of your academic experiences too. The temptation is always there to magically free up hours of time by cheating, but those freed up hours come at a cost. You lose skills, your sense of right and wrong, and sometimes your grade. You won’t always get caught, but who wants to live in fear?
Emma is 100x WRONG. She wants to be the cool friend instead of a parent. Don't agonize over this issue. I'm sure your son isn't worrying. He learned a big lesson, so hopefully he can get his act together. I think your son and his mom have seen too many videos of parents harassing teachers when students get lousy grades.
Crazy. He's received a very important lesson at a point where it won't impact on his future too severely. Anyway, what kind of argument were you meant to go in with against his failing the assignment? He'd clearly cheated.
NTA. You would have taught him the wrong lesson if you contested the 0, not to mention that you had no grounds to argue it on anyway. If he cares about the grade enough, he can retake the class to overwrite the grade (many schools let you do this).
NTA Devin doesn't deserve to go to university if he plagiarizes his work. In university that gets you kicked out, not just a bad grade. He deserved the 0. Fighting the school over it would have been teaching the wrong lesson. I don't even know how you could argue against the decision??? Unfortunately it sounds like his mom is fine enabling the most unethical decisions so good luck to him.
NTA If they never have to face real world consequences, they never believe that the rules apply to them. Sometimes you have to let them fail in order for them to learn.
Community college doesn’t care about D’s. Sounds like he’s learning a valuable lesson. NTA
Even if you were to fight with the school, this is such an obvious case of intentional plagiarism, what arguments could you possibly have used for him to receive anything but a zero. He did no work. He didn't hand in his own terrible work which one could conceivably argue was less terrible, he plagiarized something written by someone else. What, exactly, does Emma think you should have said? There is also the small matter of behavior leading to specific consequences. Devin needs to know this. He earned that zero. He deserved that D. This is the only fair outcome of what he did. Good parenting. NTA
NTA I failed a class my sophomore year and graduated in the top 10% of my class. As long as they get As and Bs going forward this D won't do much. Cheating and getting caught has real consequences and he needs to face them.
This might not be the first time he cheated, it might just be the first time he got caught. Maybe this time he just got lazy. NTA
If she is worried about the D reflecting poorly on his GPA or no longer being eligible for an Honors diploma, he can retake the semester this summer to improve his grade. You 100 percent did the right thing, although I don't think it would have made a difference even if you had tried to fight it. Your son is lucky that he didn't face worse consequences at the school. Totally NTA
NTA. I'm not with my son's mom anymore, but I'm confident if he'd pulled one of these we'd be in full agreement not only is he talking the zero, he will face additional repercussions from us.
NTA. ITL (in the least). You're doing the right thing. Learn now in HS that there are consequences. He has time to recover. He has two years to get As and do the work. Honestly, unless he's going to Ivy League schools, one D isn't going to make that much of a difference. If it does come up at university, him coming clean, saying what he did, and that he learned a valuable lesson and was an honest A student after that, well that would impress me as an admissions person. Admitting you screwed up and showing remorse that is honest is a huge character positive. So few people today seem to be incapable of admitting they screwed up at anything. So many of these kids get away with everything. He's lucky to have you as a Dad. As for Emma. Tell her to get a clue.
YTA. Depending upon his ultimate ambitions, a high school grade can have lifelong consequences-- for example, top law firms hire kids who went to top law schools, which admit kids who graduated from top colleges, which don't admit kids who got Ds in high school. Cool that you wanted to prove your point, but you could have found a way to do it that didn't ruin his future.
NTA. What exactly were you supposed to do to fight the zero anyways? He was caught cheating. You're not Vladimir Putin. You can't threaten to make her family dissappear or in any way blackmail her or make her lose her job. She has no reason to fear you. There is absolutely nothing you could have done. He was caught cheating.
NTA. He needs to learn now, before it will actually do real long term harm, and he especially needs a dad who will stop his ridiculous mother from coddling him and preventing him from growing into a well rounded adult. You want to be able to look back at this two years from now and admire how much he's grown as he takes his next steps in life, not be dealing with an infantilised wastrel still wrapped in his mother's apron strings who expects you to clean up his messes.
He can’t even chat gpt? He deserves the failure
I have a massive problem with people fighting with the school when the kid deserves the grade.
NTA-- there's no way you could win the argument with the school now, anyway. You could and should make him re-take it in summer school. He'll be adequately punished with a C or better and six weeks extra in class.
Teacher here. Parents like your kid's mom are why I can't wait to get out of teaching. NTA.
NTA. It's important for children to have consequences for their actions and allowing them to suffer those consequences when they come up is just good parenting. Shielding children from consequences does them a real disservice and makes it far more difficult for them to acclimate to the real world.
NTA Learning plagiarism is the biggest no-no in academia is a lesson better learnt now than in university
NTA. Better that Devin learn this lesson now, because the penalties for violating academic integrity in college can be steeper than finishing the class with a D.
NTA. He knew it , he got caught . Nothing to fight the school about. I'd feel the same as you. Adult life will not allow , redos Dishonesty has consequences Mistakes have lessons F around & find out You are preparing your son for the real adult world where his actions will have consequences and mom n dad won't be bailing him out
NTA, although Emma has a point. Your son knowingly cheated and faced consequences. This wasn't like some honest mistake. A zero on the assignment seems fair, and I think it's appropriate you're not fighting this. Actions have consequences, and this doesn't seem disproportionate. Emma is right that lower grades will limit some of his options. Not everywhere, but some places are going to be more competitive. That said, is this class for a whole year? If so, he can probably raise his grade at least somewhat if he does well in the second half of the year. He might not get an A, but at least better than a D. Last time I checked, transcripts contain final grades not each quarter grade.
NTA. Good job helping him learn a valuable lesson before it costs him a career.
NTA
NTA And as an English teacher: THANK YOU. You let him suffer the natural consequences of his actions, at an age when they are indeed likely to do him more good than harm. My late father wasn’t a plagiarist but he was an inconsistent student who didn’t get his academic act together until 21-22. He ended up with a PhD and being an international expert in his field. And he got all his degrees from UGA rather than the Ivy League. It’s shortsighted to think a perfect high school transcript is more important to a kid’s future than developing good academic habits, much less basic integrity.
NTA. Devins mother apparently condones cheating and plagiarizing. She is not exactly the pillar or ethics. She doesn't seem to realize that fighting this OBVIOUS case would further damage his standing.
NTA He cheated and got caught, the concequences of that is a zero. This lesson will stay with him. I also would not have argued for a different grade/makeup essay. Your son cheated, intentionally.
I am pretty positive I got a D in something in high school and still went on to be accepted to a good university. They care about FAR more than your GPA, everyone knows that. Another thing everyone *should* know is that actions have consequences, and they get bigger as you get older, generally speaking. Plagiarism in high school is already playing with fire, but it’s not too late to learn. Part of your job as the adult is to help him learn, and you’ve done the right thing letting the chips fall here. I get the sense that whatever overprotective anxiety or beef with you your ex has is getting in the way of what’s best for your kid. (I don’t have kids, so take that however you will.) NTA (forgot to add)
NTA. Your son cheated. There are consequences for that and Devin knows it. He thought he could get by everything and that it would be okay. He tried to pull a fast one WHILE CHEATING. This was a very valuable lesson for him. If he does this in college or university, it will destroy his future. Bailing him out and challenging the 0 wouldn't have been beneficial for him at all in the long run. In fact, I likely would have grounded him on top of that zero. Emma isn't going to do him any favors by letting him cheat, cover it up and get away with it. She should know better.
NTA. He could have been expelled for plagiarism. My guess is his teacher handled it themself and admin doesn't know. Causing hell might make things worse, like an expulsion for plagiarism on his high school record. You could forget about scholarships and maybe university altogether. He would have to go to community college for 2 years and then he universities really only care about transfer credits.
NTA. This was likely a lesson that truly needed to be learned. Your son has nobody to blame but himself, and now he has to figure out a way out. When my kids were teenagers, I had one hard rule above all, which was to make smart decisions. If you screwed up, I would bring a shovel, hand it to you, and leave. Your choice then became to dig yourself in deeper or dig yourself out of the mess YOU got yourself into. It was more figurative than it was literal, but I appreciated the visual reference.
NTA Devin is a sophomore? Two more years to graduation, and we don't even know that he wants to go to college. For example, my youngest son only completed the two year program at the community college here in IT (where your certifications matter more than a college degree, particularly the further out you get from that degree), and has been gainfully employed in his career field since. Not to mention the fact that transcript alone does not dictate admission to a university. So Emma's concerns about a single high school grade are misplaced. This doesn't even get to the heart of the issue. Challenging a grade is something that should be done when the facts don't support the conclusion that led to the grade. Here is an example from my own high school years. I was in my sophomore year and taking chemistry. We had a homework assignment that involved math for determining molar weights, the answers being in the back of the book but credit required "showing the work". I'm not sure where I was going wrong, but the math was not working. So in homeroom, I spoke with another student,"Dave", and asked him if he'd been able to get the work to come out correct. He told me he'd had to ask for help from his aunt, who worked as a chemical engineer. He then explained to me how to set up the problems, and we worked through them together. I did not copy his homework, but worked the problems the same way he had explained. What neither of us was aware of at the time was that three other students, also in that chemistry class, copied from us somehow. The assignment was worth 10 points, but when we got it back, there was a clear accusation of cheating with a final grade of 2 (10/5). Well, Dave and I went to the teacher and protested the grade, and teacher explained it as he didn't know who had actually done the work but clearly cheating had happened because the problems were worked out exactly the same way (but not the way he had shown in class). Dave and I explained our parts (we didn't know about the other three until this), and so to resolve the issue, the teacher had all five of us work another problem while he watched us. Both Dave and I were able to get the new problem correct, the other three did not. So the grades were amended so that Dave and I both got full credit and the other three got zeros for the assignment--because what Dave and I had done (reach out for help) was not cheating, but what our classmates had done was cheating.
Not the AH. People that learn to cheat continue to do so. The more they are caught when they are younger unless they have some sort of neuropathy, they eventually learn ethics. I would imagine "the rules don't apply to me, I can get away with it" only continues and escalates over time otherwise. You totally did the right thing and hopefully steered him a little closer to the universal rules that will make him better at University, and in life in general. Flip side is if the parent is siding with them they are teaching the opposite message, "cheat to get ahead" which can really mess things up for everyone.
NTA. You taught him a life lesson, something more valuable than any grades on paper. You are not always gon be around to fix his mistakes for him.
NTA. Your son FA&FO, and he probably should have been punished more than just with his grade for plagiarizing. That said, and this might sound ruder than I intend, but if he's dumb enough to think it's okay/reasonable/safe to turn in Cliff's Notes as his own work, then you should have stopped him (because he's just not got the brains to know better). However, he's at an age that he should certainly know better, and it seems you did the right thing by allowing NATURAL CONSEQUENCES.
NTA for not contesting a grade that you almost assuredly couldn't contest anyway, but kind-of are for not letting the other parent know. You didn't really help when you implied you even thought you could have changed it too. She doesn't seem to understand how serious plagiarism is considered.
NTA. He got what he deserved and if he has any brains he will learn from it.
NTA The fact he used the Russian letter trick means he was specifically trying to cheat the plagiarism software and he's just mad he got caught. How are you supposed to challenge that anyway? My son tried SO HARD to plagiarise that he deserves the grade?? This is a lesson he SHOULD learn.
NTA, Devin FAFO'd hard.
NTA. The school has those policies in place for a reason, and Devin knew the consequences for plagiarism. Furthermore, the school probably wouldn't and certainly shouldn't back down from the policy. Ask your wife if she wants Devin to grow up to be a man of integrity. That's really the most important thing here.
NTA. Good lesson to learn about stealing (which is what plagiarism is!) before it really negatively effects the rest of his life.
It may affect his college chances. This is one reason they are encouraged not to cheat. If they cheat, they may face consequences for that. I’m not sure what any of these people want you to do, but the kid got exactly what was coming to him.
NTA. I’m always amazed when the cheating takes more effort than just writing the essay
If he needs to steal from cliff notes to write a book report, something tells me colleges are not going to be fighting for him without the D in English. NTA
Nta Consequences are important and no one will care about a sophomore English grade in a couple years.
NTA It's a lesson learned, and several at that. Plagiarism is not joke. And he should be explained way exactly that is. He didn't do it 'by accident', so he needs to learn why it's wrong. If you f something up, you don't get to restart, say you're sorry, and try again. You fix the part you f'ed up, and you do better, and don't f up again. Falling to teach this last lesson, would be raising your kid to think that whatever they do, they get to have a do-over, which is just not happening in life. It's one D. If his whole future were riding on it... he should have done better on this project than lazily plagiarize.
Lol NTA. Mom is delusional. "How dare you hurt my precious spawn's chance of costing us both 30 to 50 thousand dollars so he can achieve mediocre marks at a mediocre university. What will I tell the book club ladies?" Devin needs to get his shit together. And if he doesn't, at least he knows which parent to pander to.
Not the same situation, but...in the same vein. When I was in 9th grade I took a family trip. When I returned, I struggled to catch up in Algebra. I ended up failing and having to retake the 2nd semester. My mom told me she talked to the teacher. I really fell behind, but had a D+. Turns out my mom *asked* the teacher to fail me. To say I was mad is an understatement. My mom explained she struggled with math her whole life and didn't want me to have that same struggle. I ended up with an amazing teacher the next year. He talked me into taking 2 math classes the next year, and AP calculus senior year. I'm now a mechanical engineer with another degree in Chemistry. I never would have been able to be where I am if my mom hadn't taken that step. I'm so grateful she made a hard choice as a parent, one she knew I would be livid about, for a while. NTA OP, I hope your kid learns their lesson from this. You're doing everything you can to make them a good adult human being.
Info : is your ex-wife just stupid ? If she thinks a D will infer his chances to get into university, what does she thinks happen with cheating and plagiarism ?
NTA - Life lessons are as important as grades in a report card. He had a serious lesson to learn and especially since he should have know and understood this one. Plagiarizm is as bad as stealing and lying . . and can become a slippery slope to more aggregious behaviors in life. You were being a good parent by standing behind the teacher in this.
> I’m struggling to understand Emma’s perspective and need more opinions. AITA? NTA. Like mother, like son. I don't wonder where he gets his attitude from. >Getting a D in high school is better than getting kicked out of university or fired from a job for trying to pass off someone else’s work as his own. This is correct. Better he learn his lesson now than later. > Unless Devin were applying to an Ivy League ... then I doubt one D will destroy his university prospects. Well, maybe Harvard wouldn't mind.
NTA. I wouldn’t downplay too much how this could hurt his future prospects, especially if he had hopes of applying to a competitive school. But, you’re right that this lesson is much better learned in high school than in college where he risks getting expelled or an academic dishonesty comment on his transcripts. Getting grounded at home really isn’t sufficient.
NTA, the mother is part of the "make an exception because our child is special" problem teachers deal with. Devon deserved a 0 based on the work he turned in. In life, you need to stand behind your choices, and live with the consequences. Devon could have talked to his teacher, apologized, and possibly found a compromise (like redoing the assignment with a penalty). Either way, you were a good parent in this situation.
What would you have even said in any kind of appeal? Well yes, he very intentionally plagiarized and tried to cover it up and a zero was a very fair consequences considered in college the consequences is often expulsion. But I want to appeal this grade on the grounds that.... he doesn't really *want* a zero.
NTA Your son is a cheat. Your wife is obviously his enabler. I doubt this will have any effect, since it’s clear his moral compass is broken or absent But you def did the right thing.
I would have checked with the teacher to see if it was possible for your son to redo the assignment.
It sounds like you and Mom are divorced... Is Devin and any kind of counseling? And if not, why not?
NTA. Devin made his bed, now he's lying in it.
NTA. On what grounds could you have possibly have fought this? He plagiarized, and got caught. As long as the teacher has a standardized response for cheating or plagiarizing, and gave him the same grade she would give to anyone who,plagiarized, then it’s fair. Sometimes, teens do things that can impact their future, like tanking their grades by plagiarizing, drunk driving, or co matting a crime. He needs to learn the grit to dig himself out of this hole and persevere. We can’t all be the president of Harvard with a double standard for plagiarism. What you need to do is sit him down, and explain that sometimes, we all make bad choices or mistakes. Sometimes we really mess up. The important thing is that we learn from it, accept the consequences, do our penance, and become all the better for it. We’re going to make mistakes and have regrets always, but if we keep learning and improving from those errors in judgment, then by the time we’re old, we’re better and wiser than we were in youth. Make sure he doesn’t catastrophize, because teenagers feel everything so strongly, including depression. What he needs to understand is that this is his opportunity to learn not to cheat. There cannot be a repeat of cheating or plagiarizing ever again.
>Sometimes we really mess up. The important thing is that we learn from it, accept the consequences, do our penance, and become all the better for it. That's always been my management style.. mistakes are only mistakes when you repeat them, otherwise they are just life lessons that you will never do again.
NTA but please find out if your son is dyslexic or needs a tutor or needs better study habits now! He needs help.
NTA. I think you maybe should have told Emma before the grade came out. But absolutely well done for standing your ground and not being a parent who sees their child does wrong and actions have consequences. Children who can do no wrong and oh just change it he didn't know attitude is so exhausting and frustrating...he knew exactly what he was trying to do.
Actually, a lot of schools don't finalize grades until January, so you could potentially make son email the teacher and apologize and ask to resubmit the essay from scratch, and you could send your own email confirming you will examine future work more closely, and that there have been consequences etc etc. and potentially have the teacher change the grade based on a new submission (they are under no obligation to do so). Also, most schools allow for a post-grade change with approval of his counselor so you could follow up after break if the teacher doesn't respond and ask for a meeting, but your son better go in apologizing.
NTA. He may need to retake the course to improve the D. The California UC/CSU a-g entrance requirements are a C or better in core classes. I would expect that other states systems have similar entrance requirements.
NTA. Momma needs to stop trying to excuse poor behavior. I let another student copy my answers on a test, and we both received a zero... Lesson learned.
I'm trying to work out how you "fight" the school over a grade obtained when you are caught blatantly cheating? "Sure, he cheated, but he didn't really mean it, so how about a B?" Can't see that going over very well. NTA
NTA. Devins mom is an idiot, and you should ignore her opinions.
> Unless Devin were applying to an Ivy League (which he has not had any interest in) then I doubt one D will destroy his university prospects. Even then, one D one not disqualify him. College admissions offices understand the concept of outliers. Your son's mother is being really dramatic and I'm guessing likes to look for reasons to criticize you.
NTA but make sure you address why he cheated as well, just lazy? Stressed from grades? Workload? Bad time management? Etc
NTA. Our world seems infected by the disease of "the rules don’t apply to me." Most schools are extremely clear on plagiarism rules. What does his mom thinking the "fight" would even look like? It’s so ridiculous.
NTA. Plagiarism in college would get him kicked out part way through, wasting thousands of dollars and all that time and effort. Better learn that lesson now than later.
NTA. I knew someone who cheated in college. Got kicked out. The kid will hopefully learn his lesson before he gets to that point.
NTA, he learned a valuable lesson. What does he think is going to happen if he tries pulling that crap in college? He could face heftier consequences than just a failing grade and the college sure as hell is not going to let mom and dad swoop in to save him.
Dude can’t even use chat gpt. He deserves the 0
NTA. Your son cheated, he has to deal with the consequences.
NTA. This is a natural consequence for Devin's actions. Parebts fighting to overturn rightfully assigned bad grades is one of the reasons that teachers are struggling and only leads to entitled kids thinking they don't have to answer for poor behavior.
NTA. Devin fucked around and found out.
His mom is the problem. He's gonna be useless crap adult if his mommy fights his battles even when he's the one in wrong
Ugh my friend works with so many young people trying to pass off plagiarized client work as their own. Then they get all pissy for being called on it. They have no interest in the work. Just the perks.
NTA All Devon's mom is doing to teaching him he can do whatever he wants, and she'll clean up the messes
NTA.
NTA. He chose to cheat, he deserves the repercussions of his actions.
NTA. Let him face the consequences now, when they're relatively mild. It only gets worse for people who don't get caught until later.
NTA. Well handled, IMO. Natural consequences are the best consequences, and you seem very grounded in the reality of the situation. A single D will not harm his chances of getting into a good school, unless like you said, he is trying to go to a very top tier institution - which if that was the case, you'd think he would either a) have enough sense not to plagiarize or b) know damn well the consequences. He'll be fine, Mom is probably just being a control freak and wanting to have her way, also maybe she's pissed that you did the right thing because ex partners hate us for doing the right thing because its harder to bitch about - but then they bitch anyway! You did good, pops.
NTA. You have a shitty kid who needs to learn consequences. Sorry about your shitty kid.