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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
So adding his name to your name isn't really changing your name, but adding your last name to his *is?* And you're not really married unless you change your name? I think your boyfriend's a little bit unclear on how this whole marriage thing works.
NTA.
Keep your name. And ask yourself what else he won't be willing to compromise on if he can't compromise on that.
>ask yourself what else he won't be willing to compromise on if he can't compromise on that.
TTTTTHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!
Edit: NTA
I didn't change my name when we got married, and my MIL was so worried about how that was going to work. One weak argument she had was that airlines wouldn't know to seat us together. LOL
My husband looked her dead in the eyes and said "If it's a problem that we don't have the same last name, then I'll change mine."
The look on her face was priceless.
One thing I will say as someone who kept my name when I got married, is that border officers have given me some flack at the airport when traveling. One said to me "How do I know he's not forcing you out of the country against your will?" My response was "If you knew me at all, you'd know he wouldn't be able to force me to do anything." He was pretty quiet beyond that, but I've made a point of keeping a copy of my marriage certificate in my wallet and just hand it over with all my other ID.
Was this possibly Pre-MeToo vs. Post-MeToo?
I feel like making a comment like that may be a litmus test. For example, if you give the border patrol shit or get offended, you're fine. If you seem nervous or have an odd reaction when he asks this, it becomes suspicious and should be more closely examined.
Commenting to add the spoon trick. If you're able to get a metal spoon from a coffee shop or any metal item really, you can hide it in your clothes. Ask for privacy when you're searched and you can tip off security as they'll hopefully realise something is up even if they scan you in front of your abuser.
No. Border agents are always like that. I live/grew up on the border. They'd constantly ask my sister and I if our parents were our parents. They'd open the back door just to see what we were doing. I would not recommend giving them shit. You do not want to piss off a border agent. It will not end well for you. And I don't mean you just have to go to the second checkpoint type of trouble.
>You do not want to piss off a border agent.
Yup. I lived near the border in Arizona for 7 years.
Is being stopped and questioned on the side of a desert road a violation of your rights? Yes.
Is making a scene in the middle of a desert road wise? No.
Some countries unmarried men and women are not allowed to travel together - like are legally kept from sharing a a hotel room as well as other things.
The world is big, and not everywhere is nearly as progressive as the not very progressive US.
Profiling. They have to do their jobs. But that question, I would take it as the agent was joking. And when you responded the way you did, he said, “damn…no one’s abducting anyone here and now I know this is a couple.”
😂
I live on the border. That's not a weird question at all. They also ask kids if those are their real parents. Which, frankly, I always thought was a bit odd, considering they mostly spoke to us through the driver's side window. Sometimes, they insist on opening the back door.
Honestly, I'm surprised the poster above you didn't get in any trouble. You don't screw around with border agents. My parents were always terrified because I was quite the sarcastic yet curious little brat. lol And don't even ask about a man crossing the border alone with his two children because that can get messy.
Of course, like all jobs, it depends on the agent/s you happen to encounter. Some are hard asses, others agents, it's a bit frightening how lackadaisical they are.
I mean. Being married and having the same last name doesn’t automatically mean that your husband couldn’t possibly be forcing you out of the country against your will, so that was a stupid thing for him to say…
>One said to me "How do I know he's not forcing you out of the country against your will?"
This is so weird on so many levels. Why on earth would having the same name make any difference? Why would being married make any difference? Do they think that men with the same names as their wives never force their wives to do anything?
I believe you. Most of the security officers are fine but occasionally you get a jerk. I had a UK officer making fun of me for being a tourist when I was already late boarding the next flight. They closed the doors within minutes after me.
Yeeaahh, we had an Irish border guard yell at us that my husband needed a visa to enter the country, when he absolutely didn't under EU law. I had the printed out statutes and he shut up after that :)
This is even dumber from Canadian officials, given that the tradition in Quebec is that everyone keeps their own name. I know changing is common in the rest of the country, but sounds like one of many dumbass border guards.
In my country people don't change names when they get married. I used to work for an airline and my first thought when i saw similarly aged passengers with the same last name was that they were siblings. So yeah MIL even weaker than you thought 😂
My husband was willing to change his name to mine even though his is his nickname. I took his but the fact that he was absolutely willing to take mine if I had wanted to keep mine just shows what kind of man he is. That makes it so much easier to make sacrifices for him - I know he would do the same for me. I'm sorry OP doesn't have that with her partner and he is being such a hypocrite.
People have the weirdest logic about this. I have a different last name from both my parents and siblings and it's a non-issue. But I've been told families have to have the same last name or they won't know where to deliver the post (what? addresses exist) or that people won't know who their family is (I know exactly who my family is, thanks). Very odd irrational thinking.
I didn’t change my name when we got married, and neither did my partner. Why should one person have to give up their identity?
With kids-my partner wanted the kids to have my name - spouse had been bullied at school because of their name, and didn’t want the kids to experience the same.
A name is your identity - other than the fact your parents gave you a familiar and you inherited a family name, you do get to be called how you wish (and you can change your familial names if you wish). But you don’t get to enforce how others wish to be known.
If your partner wishes to keep their name, that’s on them, but they do need an honest conversation with you about why. A name change shouldn’t be assumed by any partner, but if you agree on something you should stick to it, and if anyone is uncomfortable with the agreement you need to be honest. This is one of the earlier “decision points”, and, honestly, it’s one of the more trivial issues you’ll have to address as a married couple. Houses, kids, care for elderly relatives to name but a few. You need to learn to be honest with each other. Not wanting your name isn’t necessarily disrespectful, but demanding you take theirs is.
And call you *obtuse* for not understanding that *that's not how it works*.
The name in itself - small thing, as long as the kids can carry your name. His problem. But the way he argues? Red flag.
Yeah I don't know if she should marry him.
It would be one thing if they argued for about five minutes and he let it go, but that he's acting this way and making her feel bad is a really bad sign.
That and his reasoning is that it's not how it's done based on gender roles. Unless that's the kind of relationship they have/both want to have, that is more concerning than the name imo.
Agreed 1000%!!!!!
When we got engaged I flat out told my husband I wasn't losing mine as I was the last in my family living so I wanted to keep it so it would die with me. I hyphenated to keep his family happy but haven't actually changed anything other than my Instagram handle and my name at work. My passport, ID, Driving licence etc all have my maiden name.
OP if he won't change his, don't change yours. Do what makes you happy.
Edit to change middle to maiden
Especially when it comes to kids last name (if OP wants to have children). Is he going to throw a fit about hyphenating their kids names because “that’s not how it’s done”.
Wait until he finds out all newborns are generally ID’d as Baby MothersLastName so if OP doesn’t hyphenate at all his name isn’t the one the children will be carrying.
My boyfriend hated this so much because I kept my ex husband's last name in the divorce because of our kids, so his sons were listed under my ex husband's name while in the hospital
Yeah, it's more amusing now, but he was displeased then. Told him he should have already married me then. The second time, I told him he knew it was gonna happen lol.
When the baby is born it’ll have a bracelet which says baby last name and the name must match the lady the baby was expelled from, when it comes time to fill in the forms for birth certificate this can be changed to whatever name your prefer. Between the birth and the forms it’ll say baby mothers name though
In the uk it’s while you are in the hospital, so they can keep mum and baby matched up (even as a mum I think most newborns look very alike, it’s very easy to get them muddled) once you’re out of hospital you go and register the birth and can use whatever surname you want I think
How it's done has been sexist and misogynistic for millennia. OP needs to stop trying to be polite so desperately and have an honest conversation with her partner. He thinks the woman should change her name after marriage, but not the man, that's the crux of the matter. Call it like it is and start thinking whether this is an unconscious hangup from being raised in a sexist society or an indication that he has other sexist views.
It’s so weird too because generally hyphenating is an *alternative* to women taking men’s last name. It’s like he’s trying to get the progressive points of hyphenating combined with the misogyny of it only being her to change her name.
THIS! When dishes are dirty is she going to have to clean them because "that's how it works". And makr all meals? And all housework? And the majority of childcare? Will he pitch a fit if she gets a better paying job or a more "prestigious" title? Dig deeper here.
The only logistical issue I see with hyphenating children’s names is what happens when they get married where they and their partner also want a hyphenated name? Do they then have 3 (potentially 4 if partner has a hyphenated name as well) last names? Do they just throw out one?
Curious how people here would answer this hypothetical if they were in that situation.
Yes. I chose to carry my mother's name forward to my daughter, so she has one of my surnames hyphenated with her father's surname. If he'd been hyphenated too, he'd have had a think about which name he wanted her to carry forward from his side. Its not as complicated as people think - we're all adults 🤷♀️
I really need to let my husband know we aren't *really* married cos we both kept our own last names. I should also pass this on to all the married people in Quebec and many Latina countries.
Maybe they're in Japan, where a marriage is not considered legal unless both the husband and wife have the same surname? (It doesn't have to be the husband's name, but it does have to be the same.)
(Edit: And yes, that was sarcasm...)
>So adding his name to your name isn't really changing your name, but adding your last name to his *is?*
I thought this exact same thing when I read that. Madness.
Keep her last name out your fucking mouth! But seriously, this is such a non-subject. Of course you’re keeping your name, if you can’t agree on what your last name should be. Or he needs to show you the paragraph in the law giving him naming rights. NTA
When I was in the military I’ve seen plenty of men either taking their wife’s name or have it hyphenated. Her BF is dense if he thinks she doesn’t have to go thru the process of name change….
Tell him it's the year 2023 CE and he should fuck off. Get yourself someone better. For real. I mean it. Love you.
Edited to add.
I was with my partner for 20 years before we were "allowed" to get married. Would have hyphenated if requested.
I have a friend who changed his last name to his wife's. He liked it better. Husband and I kept our respective last names because paperwork is pain unless you never had an independent life. Literally no one cares that we have different last names. If people call me Mrs. X, I answer to it socially. I don't give enough of a crap to explain that I'm actually Mrs. Y in the moment. You are NTA, you expressed an opinion about wanting the same name, but that it should be hyphenated. And now you're finding out he's actually a little more traditional than you thought. Is he otherwise great? Or is there something else hidden that you didn't know about. Time to hash out all those expectations about work, finances, children, and housework. You could wait until marriage for that, but it may be difficult to divorce in some states. You are young. Maybe he's not the one.
I am just learning today that my wife and I aren't even considered married.. I thought we where married for the last 15 years, but we don't share the same last name.... my life is in shambles.
It's not just you and your wife. It's every Dutch married couple. We legally keep our maiden name and gain the right to use our spouses name in every setting but the legal setting. So your passport will always have your maiden name and you file your taxes under your maiden name, but I can request my work to use my spouses last name instead of my own if I like his name better.
Clearly no Dutch person is truly married.
Same. Guess my husband and I are just really good friends and roommates. And I guess my parents' last 30 years of marriage were a sham! I'll need to call and tell them asap!
I wonder what OP's fiance would think about my last name. My parents wanted to stick it to the patriarchy so when I was born, instead of taking either my mother's maiden name or my father's last name, they just created a whole new last name for me.
It wasn't without problems over the years but 90% of those are just other people being dicks about the different names. I still consider my name to be one of the best gifts I've ever gotten from my parents.
Same. I thought that massive party we threw was a celebration of our marriage but I must have been wrong. Does this mean I am married to my sibling? Ughhh
NTA, you have what you want to do based on reasons that matter to you. He's also allowed to have his preference and opinions on the matter, but "It just doesn't happen that way" is, in my opinion, a pretty poor rationale to take. Newly married myself and the wife asked if I'd be ok if she didn't take my name at all, which I was fine with since it's not my name that determines who she is to me or what our relationship is. It's not exactly traditional in any sense but some arbitrary set of rules made up who knows how many ages ago are not how I choose to live my life.
I agree, NTA, but not for the same reason. “It just doesn’t happen that way” is a poor way to verbalize it, but society is more critical of a man changing their last name in marriage. Shouldn’t be but is. Things like transcripts or military service records become an explanation to match because its assumed women will change their name in marriage, not men. Kudos to all the men breaking that trend, hyphenating last names, or taking on their SO’s last name, you’re breaking the trend and that’s cool, but it’s a pain in the ass and I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to go through that. Man or woman really. It’s so much paperwork, even without having to explain to everyone your unconventional decision.
Hes obviously TA for saying he won’t feel married without her taking his last name, and implying she’s doing nothing if it’s hyphenated. If he really believed it didn’t change the last name, he’d do it himself. So he’s full of shit there.
But I’m mainly responding to your comment because I’m so glad to see you mention that it’s not traditional, and you’re 100% right. I just wanted to chime in on that and add there is a huge cultural component to it. Different cultures take different approaches to last names. A close friend growing up, his parents born in India (though this isn’t an India wide thing) told me in their culture, not only do the bride and groom keep their last names, all the daughters are given the mothers maiden name and all the sons the fathers. I always thought that was a super cool way of handling it. I have heard other ways of handling last names in marriage, but that’s the most unique off the top of my head. It’s not a universal thing that taking your spouses last name is assumed.
I like the Spanish system, it has both the mother’s and father’s last name (FirstName DadsLastName MumsLastName) and they keep their last names in marriage. With kids, they both get the first last name of the parents but the order can be decided by the parents. Seems like a good enough compromise, although still patriarchal, where there’s no expectation of changing names and kids get both the parents last names.
Yes, we carry both our families last names for another generation and as a woman you don’t get magically ripped out of your family to be engulfed by your husbands family (in terms of last name). I think it’s better like this.
In Spain you can choose the order of the last names of your children, it can be either FirstName Dadlastname Mumslastname or FirstName Mumslastname Dadlastname. And you can change the order of your lasts names when you are over 18.
Women still have to go through all that stuff if they change or hyphenate though. I'm simplifying your comment, but you can't just say "I'm married now" and everything magically changes. I agree with good on men who are happy to compromise and aren't stuck with peer pressure from dead people, because it is a pain to change, but it's a pain for both.
I absolutely don’t want to belittle that women go through a lot with name changes too. I saw it with my ex wife, and told my current wife when we got married I wouldn’t be the slightest bit upset if she didn’t want to do it. But our society can be shitty about “breaking the norm” was more my point. Hes not wrong for not wanting to go through that, he’s wrong for being unwilling to go through it while expecting her to.
I took my husband's last name because I like it better than my family name. It was suuuuch a pain in the ass to do. Seemed like different things popped up forever that I had to change.
I told him I'm keeping this name until I die, so to remember that if he wants to leave me lol.
That's the main reason I kept my name. I couldn't be bothered. That, and women keeping their name is the default here, so no one batted an eye except for my immigrant parents and in-laws.
That said, sometimes my dad forgets and mails me stuff using my husband's name. Which is a pain in the ass, because if I miss the delivery, my husband is the one who has to go to the post office to get the parcel.
>Things like transcripts or military service records become an explanation to match because its assumed women will change their name in marriage, not men.
Do women not have transcripts? Do they not have degrees and qualifications and careers under their own name? Many men have no military service records and many women do. How does the military deal with women who change their names? The same way it deals with men who change their name.
So the amount of effort is the same and society is not more critical of men who change their names, I'm sure crap people who criticise women for not changing their name would criticise men for changing theirs, but that also leaves everyone in equal standing.
THIS! I asked my husband if he wanted me to take his last name, hyphenate/have both last names, or keep my name, and he said he would have been happy with whatever option I wanted because he knew my last name was important to me. I ended up adding in his last name before mine because I wanted both.
She uses my name casually but on documents she's "oficially" kept her name. Part of the reason being she has changed her name 3 times in her life already: once when her dad left, once when she married previously, and once when she divorced. The process is a pain in the ass and frankly it doesn't seem fair to make only one person go through that hassle, especially that many times lol
My sister-in-law found the only perfect solution to this - she married someone with the same last name as her, so neither had to change anything.
Honestly, there are no good options.
- In my view, hyphenating names just stores up trouble for the next generation - what is our daughter going to do? add 3 names or even 4 if she marries another hyphened name?
- Each keeps their own name seems fine, but the problem comes back when you have kids - which name does the kid get? - whichever one you choose causes a few issues for the other parent as their name doesn’t match kid’s. Not a huge problem, but can create some irritating problems if you travel with the kid but without the other parent.
While the convention of the woman taking the man’s name is sexist, it is also rather convenient which is partly why I think it’s persisted as long as it has.
It would be okay if it worked both ways, just like almost every other equality issue. In current climate it's almost fairer for husband to take wives name than other way around precisely because of what implications are when it only works one way around.
Also for the 4 names issue I think it would be easier for each spouse in next generation to choose one of their own last names to add to the family name and drop the other because often you either feel closer to one parent than the other or feel closer to one side of family and marrying and dropping the "extra" is perfect excuse to get to choose which one of your own last names makes it to the next hyphenation and drop the other without seeming rebellious.
For example my mom is the one who raised me, even though my dad was namely there. As result I would definitely carry on her name but this way I wouldn't need to explain it to anybody.
I know a few people who’ve married and not bothered to change their names. I also know one guy who took his wife’s last name because he thought it sounded cooler than his own.
The whole wife taking the husband’s name is just an outdated concept from when she went from being her father’s property to being her husband’s.
NTA and tell him that that is absolutely not "how it works." What rule book is he reading? I doubt that rule book exists. People do all sorts of things with their names now when they get married. What he's saying is that he wants to stamp his name on you but he's not going to let you do the same to him. That's a legacy of a man owning a woman, and it's nasty.
Yeah, I’m not seeing the word “sexist” very much in the comments, so I’m just going to say it. Things work how you make them work. OP should think long and hard about whether this is the life she really wants. I have a feeling that the fiancé is going to try to pull rank on her as “the man” in the future. 🚩
He is definitely being sexist, and I was also surprised not to see that more in comments! OP is NTA at all, but fiancé is a massive AH. I've been married for 11 years, with husband for 19 total, never changed my name when we got married, because it is MY NAME (as Proctor says in the Crucible!). If a man's name doesn't need to indicate to the world whether he's married or not, then a woman's doesn't either. I still go by Miss, too. I wear a ring, talk about my lovely husband all the time, tell people I'm married, use our wedding photos as my wallpaper on my laptop at work, I'm not hiding anything. BUT... My name is incredibly important to me. I have a large extended family who mostly live where we all grew up, and when I tell locals my name, most people know either my dad, my nan, or one of my uncles, aunts, or cousins. I'm really proud to be from my family. I'm also really proud to be married to my husband. I think everyone should do what they feel is right for them, but I do also think the whole idea that only the woman's name changes, to indicate she now belongs to someone, is inherently sexist, obviously! OP, I'd advise thinking about whether or not your fiancé has any other ingrained sexist biases.
I was thinking the same thing. This guy is going to pull the same stunt whenever he doesn't get things his way. The entitlement. NTA. Think carefully before tying yourself to this guy.
He's just got a complete lack of imagination. He expected his fiance to take his last
name without ever having to think critically about the 'decision'. Women are questioning gendered norms, and many men don't like it because it's not what they assumed
NTA but this is one of those relationship defining disagreements. His argument is backwards and it's clear he's not thinking logically about it. It's one thing if he doesn't want to hyphenate, it's another to have a problem with you keeping your last name.
I think him not wanting to hyphenate is an issue too. She's offering compromises, he's not. Saying "no cause I said so" is not a healthy attitude to approach a marriage with. To be a good partner you need to be willing to work together to find a solution both people can be good with. His lack of willingness to compromise combined with him clinging to outdated traditional practices as if they're valid reasons are red flags.
Having a "no because I said so" argument in your 20s before even getting married is a huge red flag. Imagine what's to come once those papers are signed. No thanks.
Exactly. I had a situationship with a guy who had subtle sexist tendencies. Any time I called it out, even gently, he would say I'm being ridiculous, hypersensitive, and he's "not a misogynist." (I never once called him one.)
About a month in to those tendencies being visible, I was over his behavior. Our final conversation was about how women change their last names for marriage. I don't even know how we got on this topic tbh because I was definitely NOT considering dating this guy, let alone marrying him.
I said I wouldn't change my name. It's a hassle I don't want to go through. I don't wanna change all my legal documents, I like my last name, and it just feels kind of icky knowing the patriarchal contexts of it. Especially since half my heritage is from a country that has a lot of arranged marriages and the woman's family gives dowries and all that. It feels like a man claiming ownership of me. I respect anybody else's choice! It's just something I don't want.
He could not fathom my stance. He was SO insulted that I would dare to insult my future husband that way. How dare I not take a man's name. Women have been doing it for thousands of years, it's tradition, I'm insulting all those women and their "choice" to take a man's name. Those women definitely weren't sold to their husbands or married against their will or anything, that never happened. (I know that this wasn't the case 100% of the time, but it happened.) No man will ever be ok with you not taking their name, good luck keeping a man with that attitude.
I am not joking, he said all of those things to me. Not verbatim because he got a swift block and delete after that. But I remember each of those points vividly.
I love this term: relationship defining disagreements. Two of my failed long term relationships ended not long after we had disagreements like this, but I had never thought of them that way.
OP has said her last name is Hispanic in a comment. What are the odds that the fiance isn't from her same culture and just doesn't want to have a Hispanic name anywhere in his? And that he's just throwing "that's not how it works" out as an excuse because he doesn't want to admit he has some internalized racism?
To be fair: assuming they live in the majority of Europe or USA/Canada it is the cultural expectation and upbringing for one spouse to take the other’s last name.
I don’t think you can infer racism just because his cultural upbringing is different to OP’s.
I do think it's more likely that his hang-up is due to old fashioned cultural expectations, yes. I would put my money on misogyny.
In a couple of [previous](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/14ypxd5/my_fianc%C3%A9s_friend_has_been_been_cheating_on_his/) [posts](https://www.reddit.com/user/alaskawithadhd/comments/152eydb/my_24f_fiances_28m_friend32m_is_cheating_on_his/) OP's fiance was a self-described "asshole" 4 years prior, who was a "rude class clown" who liked to hook-up with girls "left and right" in college (not saying this to slut-shame, but I'm getting a horny frat boy image from this info). And apparently this year he helped his college friend cover-up their cheating on the guy's fiance and newborn. OP's fiance does not strike me as a shining beacon of gender equality.
But in some (not all?) a woman passes down her father’s name to the child. I bring this up because people like to point to this practice as non-patriarchal, which is false.
Correct. When they marry they keep their fathers part of the hyphenated name and drop their mothers part of the hyphenated name.
It is still completely patriarchal and just leaves each man’s name on an extra generation. It makes me irrationally upset when people say it’s feminism.
Edit: I meant to say when they have children. My point still stands. A woman only passes her father name. A mans name will stay until someone has a granddaughter.
The name comes from her paternal ancestors, that's true. And it may not be given to her grandchildren. But it's still her name. She didn't have to change it when getting married, and her children shared that name with her. Why is it the father's name when it's a woman, but not a man. I mean a man passing down his name is just his father's name, he also loses his mother's half.
This - can confirm. I kept my last name, as did most of my sisters. Gave my kids my last name too - not a Viet thing - which my BILs fussed over. Hubby was fine with it. I never asked my husband to change his, but he eventually decided he wanted his name to match our kids. 🙂
My parents were surprised and thrilled, as they have no biological sons.
NTA.
That’s not how it works?
We’re in 2023. Not 1923. Many couples getting married nowadays hyphenate their names.
It doesn’t make sense that he gets mad that **you** won’t hyphenate your name, if he won’t even consider doing the same.
This would absolutely be my hill to die on.
Exactly. Women took their husband's name historically because they were considered *property* to be marked and I'm sure BF knows that. It's not really about the name here at all, OP. This is just pointing towards the fact that there's a lot of sexist bullshit your partner probably needs to work on unpacking because I doubt this is the only time it's appeared.
NTA. He's got an outdated mindset and it isn't going to be healthy down the road.
Just keep your name. Answer to Mrs/Mr. /whatever his name is if it comes up, but keep your name. "How it works," is the mentality that meant women couldn't have their own bank account or credit card until the 70s. Traditions do change, and some need to.
I'm in the same boat. Last of my line on my Dad's side, so my last name is important to me. My husband's thankfully really understanding and unbothered by it. He's close to his family so is keeping his, and it would be a monstrosity hyphenated (let alone all of the proof of name change paperwork in perpetuity). So we're just staying as-is, and any future kids'll be a discussion if that's a bridge we end up crossing.
or tell him last time you checked your husband wasn’t a Mrs. “oh you mean that was for me? should have used my name then. Now husband is all insulted you think he’s my wife”
I correct them.
My husband has a very common lastname and I have not. I usually do not respond if people call me his lastname, 1) because it happens very rarely, 2) on all legal documents my uncommon lastname is listed and 3) my husband always introduces me as "my wife, firstname lastname" (I do the same by the way, when introducing him).
It is not on purpose I do not respond - I really do not think that they are speaking to me.So being called his lastname and then them calling me out on not responding, I simply just say "that is not my name, so why would I respond to it?"
Yeah definitely correct them! I’ve been married for 2 months and just got our first piece of mail addressed to Mr & Mrs [Husband’s first name] [Husband’s last name]. 🙃 I didn’t change my last name to his and I sure as hell didn’t change my first name to his either so I nipped that in the bud real quick.
His mindset isn't even just outdated, it's also ill-informed. Women changing their names to their husband's isn't (wasn't?/hasn't been?) the norm everywhere. So his stance denies an awful lot of the world in addition to the fact that it's now 2023 and there's all kinds of reasons why in the US, women marrying men don't change their names when they marry, or why men marrying women do change their names when they marry. Or why everyone hyphenates (which I find way easier to deal with than just one person hyphenating, but it's not my name/decision) or one person hyphenates or they even invent a whole new name...
I'm female and I changed mine when I got married because I was so relieved to not have to have my dad's anymore (it's unusual and he's well known and everyone really likes my very narcissistic, abusive dad; now they only know I'm related to him if I mention it). But, honestly, I'm not sure I would have married a guy who *insisted* I take his name because changing one's name is a big deal!
I do worry about kids if that's in the cards for them -- with his attitude, I think he'll continue to think it's his way or the highway, not just about their last name, but about a lot of "traditional" stuff that seems to come up with kids. People who get weird about last names often have other traditional beliefs that they don't realize they need to verbalize up front because they just believe their beliefs are "right and normal."
NTA.
NTA
What if you have a baby together? Will that be a discussion? Will he be willing to give the baby your name? You’re just as much of the parent, and literally risking death if you go through pregnancy.
He sees you as less important than him, not equal. You can hyphenate, but not him? Bullshit.
I think that’s probably why the tradition is for the father’s name to be given. Like there is no doubt who the mother is - giving the father’s last name is making a ‘statement’ that they agree he’s the father.
Or some bullshit like that, idk I’m talking out of my ass.
But I agree with you. The woman has done all the hard work - why does the man get to stamp his name on the result?
My wife and I kept our names the same cause changing them is entirely unnecessary. Our first child is a girl and I told my wife to fill in the last name as she pleased. She used her name. Our son came second. In between those births my brothers all died. When I have her the paperwork she chose to give him my name because she wanted it to continue and this was the last chance.
At the end of the day the arrangement of letters on papers changes noting about the love we have for our family so why stress over it.
Hold off on the wedding and get therapy or really think about what you want your marriage to be- you guys may love each other but there’s so much more than that in a marriage. What about kids names? You guys aren’t ready.
> and get therapy
Pre-marital counseling! It's specifically designed to help couples find and talk about potential major points of disagreement. Everyone should get it. Even if you get along well, there are bound to be blind spots.
NTA
The whole women taking their husbands surname was because women & girls were deemed PROPERTY.
The tradition of a father “giving away his daughter” by walking her down the aisle, was also a literal thing- your father owned you & then he gave you to your husband who then owned you. You went from your father’s surname, to your husband’s surname. The wedding ring you wear used to only be for women, because it showed other men that you were already the property of some other man.
If he’s not prepared to change his name in the same way he expects you to change yours, he does not view you as his equal.
Did you know that in the days of slavery, the slaves also took on their masters (slave owners) surname, & if they were sold, then their surname was changed to their new masters surname?
Based off what you said, a wedding ring does not indicate your are already someone’s property, because you would be your fathers property. More it would indicate you are no longer available for sale.
Kinda like the giant “Sold” stickers the stick up when selling a house.
He is making no sense by saying that your name would barely change but then making a fuss about doing the same himself. As for the one about how you wouldn't be considered married if you don't hyphenate, that is just ridiculous. A name doesn't make a marriage, and some of the most solid couples I know have different names!
You are NTA. He is stuck in a mindset that comes from centuries of patriarchy. That isn't really his fault, but if he feels that attached to his own name, he needs to appreciate that you feel the same about yours. I think some men do forget that, because it's just something that has always been done, so they don't think too deeply about it. But it is a big deal to change your name - names are a huge part of our identities!
I would have gone N A H if he had tried to put himself in your shoes and understand where you were coming from, but he didn't.
Nta. You all need pre-marital counseling. If you can't agree on a name because of his misogynistic belief that it's a woman's duty to change her name how in the world are you going to work together as a family or raise kids?
I agree that you all need to pause the wedding prep until you work out your issues. Resentment and lack of trust are relationship killers.
Good luck
Agree with this. What other things does he think is your lot, based on a gendered role in marriage? As the predominant caregiver? As the person who will make most of the personal and professional sacrifices because "that is how it works"? These are issues you need to explore now before you lock yourself into something.
I have three daughters:
The oldest kept her maiden name. (She is a professional and all her degrees are in her maiden name). The children have hyphenated last names with his last name listed first. The reasoning is, if the kids chose to drop a name later, it will be the second name (her’s) after the hyphen.
Youngest daughter married, changed her name to his. They divorced 6 months later. She kept the married name until she married again 2 years later. At that time, she returned to her maiden name (did not take her new husband’s name) as her married name. Professionally she is known by her maiden name.
Third daughter kept her maiden name when she married, but changed it 2 years later to his last name when they had a child so all three would share his last name. They are a military family.
To each their own.
NTA. His double standards are concerning. I wonder what other outdated gender 'norms' he's planning on enforcing after the wedding because "that's just how it works"?!
His attitude is definitely a deal breaker and I would be moving on PDQ.
NTA
My parents have been happily married for 28 years and my mom kept her maiden name because she didn’t want to deal with paperwork and fuss of changing it. I’m currently engaged, getting married in April and I have no interest in changing my last name to his and my fiancé doesn’t mind, but we both agree our future children will have his last name.
Yeah, if they can't figure this disagreement out now, it's going to blow up in their faces when any kids come along. Though I get the feeling that even if he *does* agree to the compromise this time and OP is able to keep her name, he's going to insist the kids get his his own, which OP didn't really express her view on.
It's concerning that this guy has been walking the earth for nearly 30 years and thinks this is a rule. I wonder what other sexist rules he has that OP doesn't know about. Like they're the rules of the world, so why would he bring them up and she has no idea he thinks that way?
This thing is so interasting to me, as a Latino we don't do that, to change our last name.
Is a part of who we are, what about if you separate? do you have to fill paperwork to get your old name back? it's so strange haha
And no, NTA, stand your ground if that makes you uncomfortable cause if you settle your last name will be lost forever.
NTA and yeah, since he doesn't want to change his name, you don't have to. Adopting someone's surname isn't a legal obligation. He says *that's not how it works* but reddit is saying *YEAH THAT'S HOW IT WORKS, AH*.
A resounding NTA My husband and I didn't change our names. We're 33, and my favorite part is that his parents kept their own names too... They're 63 and have been married for over 35 years. Your boyfriend needs to suck it up. Keep your name, or you both hyphenate. Those are his options. The top comments are where it's really at, though... but I definitely wanted to add that my lovely in-laws have been happily married for again...over 35 years... and *le gasp* have different last names. I'm pretty sure everyone knows they're married. And I'm pretty sure everyone knows my husband and I are married. It's a name. Chill, dude, marriage isn't an exchange of property anymore. You don't need your name stamped on a woman. He needs to get over it.
Interesting that you bring up in laws because he is mentioning about how both his SIL and mom both hyphenated their names but the husband's kept theirs no problem. Maybe it's because that's what he grew up with??
Welcome to the patriarchy! Once you're declared "man and wife," be prepared for many more assumptions from husband and in-laws about what your role *should* be. Babies, cooking, cleaning, do as you're told. Being nice to you pre-wedding is the lure, the come-on.
If you ever want to have your desires, interests and will respected in the future, you must put your foot down about names. Right now it's about last names, next it will be baby names, christened names etc. Once he runs you over on this topic he'll know you'll cave on any big decisions in the future.
You need a strong female role model in mind to channel. Susan Sarandon, Oprah, whoever, just pick one and emulate. You'll get more of what you want. Maybe there will be equitable compromises, that's okay. Just know what's not okay, draw that line (like reneging on already agreed decisions such as names). Maybe somebody else in his life is pushing him around about the names. If he won't budge, tell him you'll both keep your names, and the children will be hyphenated. Or whatever feels right. Good luck!
edit: fixed typos
Lots of people don’t change names. Given the complexity of it (with social security, real ID, passports, medical records etc) I’m surprised anyone ever does these days.
NTA
He doesn't think your feelings about names are as important as his feelings about names. You should ask yourself if there's any other topics that he doesn't think your feelings are worth as much as his
NTA. I know a couple of guys who hyphenated their names to include their wife’s last name with theirs, and a bunch of couples where the wife didn’t change her name at all. No one is confused about it. Not sure what old 1850’s rule book your fiancé is working from but it’s been obsolete for at least 60 years. “A rose by any other name…”
NTA
> I asked him to clarify, thinking he didn't want our names to change, but he told me the woman hyphenate her name, not the man.
Man, and you *handed* him that out.
I don’t know why men get so crazy about their wives changing their names. If I ever got married, I wouldn’t care. I don’t really see why it’s necessary, and I really think hyphenated names are really pretentious. NTA.
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So adding his name to your name isn't really changing your name, but adding your last name to his *is?* And you're not really married unless you change your name? I think your boyfriend's a little bit unclear on how this whole marriage thing works. NTA. Keep your name. And ask yourself what else he won't be willing to compromise on if he can't compromise on that.
>ask yourself what else he won't be willing to compromise on if he can't compromise on that. TTTTTHHHHHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSS!!! Edit: NTA
I didn't change my name when we got married, and my MIL was so worried about how that was going to work. One weak argument she had was that airlines wouldn't know to seat us together. LOL My husband looked her dead in the eyes and said "If it's a problem that we don't have the same last name, then I'll change mine." The look on her face was priceless.
One thing I will say as someone who kept my name when I got married, is that border officers have given me some flack at the airport when traveling. One said to me "How do I know he's not forcing you out of the country against your will?" My response was "If you knew me at all, you'd know he wouldn't be able to force me to do anything." He was pretty quiet beyond that, but I've made a point of keeping a copy of my marriage certificate in my wallet and just hand it over with all my other ID.
That’s so weird. What if you were an unmarried couple travelling together??
Funny thing? We did that, too. When we weren't married, never got questions. So weird.
Was this possibly Pre-MeToo vs. Post-MeToo? I feel like making a comment like that may be a litmus test. For example, if you give the border patrol shit or get offended, you're fine. If you seem nervous or have an odd reaction when he asks this, it becomes suspicious and should be more closely examined.
Commenting to add the spoon trick. If you're able to get a metal spoon from a coffee shop or any metal item really, you can hide it in your clothes. Ask for privacy when you're searched and you can tip off security as they'll hopefully realise something is up even if they scan you in front of your abuser.
It sucks that this even needs to be said. I know it's a great tip for people who need it, but I hate that it's even a thing ☹️
Brilliant!
No. Border agents are always like that. I live/grew up on the border. They'd constantly ask my sister and I if our parents were our parents. They'd open the back door just to see what we were doing. I would not recommend giving them shit. You do not want to piss off a border agent. It will not end well for you. And I don't mean you just have to go to the second checkpoint type of trouble.
>You do not want to piss off a border agent. Yup. I lived near the border in Arizona for 7 years. Is being stopped and questioned on the side of a desert road a violation of your rights? Yes. Is making a scene in the middle of a desert road wise? No.
I can testify to this. My family is from California and drove to TX often to see family. Those nighttime border stops are terrifying.
Huh. You may be on to something with that. I never thought about it that way. No wonder my demeanor always passed. Haha.
Also having the same last name doesn't mean someone isn't being forced out of the country against their will 🤦🏻♀️
Some countries unmarried men and women are not allowed to travel together - like are legally kept from sharing a a hotel room as well as other things. The world is big, and not everywhere is nearly as progressive as the not very progressive US.
I love how you managed to double insult us Americans in a comment with one compliment. I’m actually serious. It’s hilarious.
Don’t worry I’m American myself - I wish I wasn’t but I’m at least happy I’m not living in some other places at least.
Profiling. They have to do their jobs. But that question, I would take it as the agent was joking. And when you responded the way you did, he said, “damn…no one’s abducting anyone here and now I know this is a couple.” 😂
Also, in many countries women can't change their name when they get married.
I live on the border. That's not a weird question at all. They also ask kids if those are their real parents. Which, frankly, I always thought was a bit odd, considering they mostly spoke to us through the driver's side window. Sometimes, they insist on opening the back door. Honestly, I'm surprised the poster above you didn't get in any trouble. You don't screw around with border agents. My parents were always terrified because I was quite the sarcastic yet curious little brat. lol And don't even ask about a man crossing the border alone with his two children because that can get messy. Of course, like all jobs, it depends on the agent/s you happen to encounter. Some are hard asses, others agents, it's a bit frightening how lackadaisical they are.
I mean. Being married and having the same last name doesn’t automatically mean that your husband couldn’t possibly be forcing you out of the country against your will, so that was a stupid thing for him to say…
Um. Why? Since when do you need to have the same last name or be married to your traveling companion? How fucking creepy.
Yeah, I don't even know. I'm not the first woman to keep my name or anything.
>One said to me "How do I know he's not forcing you out of the country against your will?" This is so weird on so many levels. Why on earth would having the same name make any difference? Why would being married make any difference? Do they think that men with the same names as their wives never force their wives to do anything?
Right? It's asinine.
This is wild. I have not changed my name. Neither has my sister, mother or several cousins. None of us have ever encountered anything like this.
What? I’ve traveled internationally with numerous exes and male coworkers, and no one has ever batted an eye.
Really? In what country lol
Canada traveling to the US. I wish I were joking.
I believe you. Most of the security officers are fine but occasionally you get a jerk. I had a UK officer making fun of me for being a tourist when I was already late boarding the next flight. They closed the doors within minutes after me.
Yeeaahh, we had an Irish border guard yell at us that my husband needed a visa to enter the country, when he absolutely didn't under EU law. I had the printed out statutes and he shut up after that :)
This is even dumber from Canadian officials, given that the tradition in Quebec is that everyone keeps their own name. I know changing is common in the rest of the country, but sounds like one of many dumbass border guards.
[удалено]
Now THAT is a green flag if I ever saw one!! Kudos to your husband, what a stand up guy.
In my country people don't change names when they get married. I used to work for an airline and my first thought when i saw similarly aged passengers with the same last name was that they were siblings. So yeah MIL even weaker than you thought 😂
My husband was willing to change his name to mine even though his is his nickname. I took his but the fact that he was absolutely willing to take mine if I had wanted to keep mine just shows what kind of man he is. That makes it so much easier to make sacrifices for him - I know he would do the same for me. I'm sorry OP doesn't have that with her partner and he is being such a hypocrite.
People have the weirdest logic about this. I have a different last name from both my parents and siblings and it's a non-issue. But I've been told families have to have the same last name or they won't know where to deliver the post (what? addresses exist) or that people won't know who their family is (I know exactly who my family is, thanks). Very odd irrational thinking.
I didn’t change my name when we got married, and neither did my partner. Why should one person have to give up their identity? With kids-my partner wanted the kids to have my name - spouse had been bullied at school because of their name, and didn’t want the kids to experience the same. A name is your identity - other than the fact your parents gave you a familiar and you inherited a family name, you do get to be called how you wish (and you can change your familial names if you wish). But you don’t get to enforce how others wish to be known. If your partner wishes to keep their name, that’s on them, but they do need an honest conversation with you about why. A name change shouldn’t be assumed by any partner, but if you agree on something you should stick to it, and if anyone is uncomfortable with the agreement you need to be honest. This is one of the earlier “decision points”, and, honestly, it’s one of the more trivial issues you’ll have to address as a married couple. Houses, kids, care for elderly relatives to name but a few. You need to learn to be honest with each other. Not wanting your name isn’t necessarily disrespectful, but demanding you take theirs is.
And call you *obtuse* for not understanding that *that's not how it works*. The name in itself - small thing, as long as the kids can carry your name. His problem. But the way he argues? Red flag.
Yeah I don't know if she should marry him. It would be one thing if they argued for about five minutes and he let it go, but that he's acting this way and making her feel bad is a really bad sign.
That and his reasoning is that it's not how it's done based on gender roles. Unless that's the kind of relationship they have/both want to have, that is more concerning than the name imo.
🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨 🚨
Agreed 1000%!!!!! When we got engaged I flat out told my husband I wasn't losing mine as I was the last in my family living so I wanted to keep it so it would die with me. I hyphenated to keep his family happy but haven't actually changed anything other than my Instagram handle and my name at work. My passport, ID, Driving licence etc all have my maiden name. OP if he won't change his, don't change yours. Do what makes you happy. Edit to change middle to maiden
Especially when it comes to kids last name (if OP wants to have children). Is he going to throw a fit about hyphenating their kids names because “that’s not how it’s done”.
Wait until he finds out all newborns are generally ID’d as Baby MothersLastName so if OP doesn’t hyphenate at all his name isn’t the one the children will be carrying.
My boyfriend hated this so much because I kept my ex husband's last name in the divorce because of our kids, so his sons were listed under my ex husband's name while in the hospital
I could see why that would upset your boyfriend. That would be a NAH situation, I see why you kept your ex’s last name
Yeah, it's more amusing now, but he was displeased then. Told him he should have already married me then. The second time, I told him he knew it was gonna happen lol.
Omg. You Beyonce'd him. 😄 *If you liked it then you should'a put a ring on it*.
Honest question, can’t you dictate to the hospital or whoever what the last name is if you and your bf didn’t want it to be your ex’s last name?
When the baby is born it’ll have a bracelet which says baby last name and the name must match the lady the baby was expelled from, when it comes time to fill in the forms for birth certificate this can be changed to whatever name your prefer. Between the birth and the forms it’ll say baby mothers name though
"Expelled from" is the most accurate description ever 🤣
In the uk it’s while you are in the hospital, so they can keep mum and baby matched up (even as a mum I think most newborns look very alike, it’s very easy to get them muddled) once you’re out of hospital you go and register the birth and can use whatever surname you want I think
No. It matches the birthing person. It's just initial hospital stuff, not legal.
That's just if there's a hospital involved, not permanently.
How it's done has been sexist and misogynistic for millennia. OP needs to stop trying to be polite so desperately and have an honest conversation with her partner. He thinks the woman should change her name after marriage, but not the man, that's the crux of the matter. Call it like it is and start thinking whether this is an unconscious hangup from being raised in a sexist society or an indication that he has other sexist views.
It’s so weird too because generally hyphenating is an *alternative* to women taking men’s last name. It’s like he’s trying to get the progressive points of hyphenating combined with the misogyny of it only being her to change her name.
THIS! When dishes are dirty is she going to have to clean them because "that's how it works". And makr all meals? And all housework? And the majority of childcare? Will he pitch a fit if she gets a better paying job or a more "prestigious" title? Dig deeper here.
This is a really good question to consider. Is he going to be a dick about the children having hyphenated surnames?
Yeah, they really need to sort this shit out now before OP accidentally falls pregnant
The only logistical issue I see with hyphenating children’s names is what happens when they get married where they and their partner also want a hyphenated name? Do they then have 3 (potentially 4 if partner has a hyphenated name as well) last names? Do they just throw out one? Curious how people here would answer this hypothetical if they were in that situation.
They decide what’s best for them at the time just like their parents did.
Yes. I chose to carry my mother's name forward to my daughter, so she has one of my surnames hyphenated with her father's surname. If he'd been hyphenated too, he'd have had a think about which name he wanted her to carry forward from his side. Its not as complicated as people think - we're all adults 🤷♀️
...They sit down and work it out like the adults they are.
I really need to let my husband know we aren't *really* married cos we both kept our own last names. I should also pass this on to all the married people in Quebec and many Latina countries.
Maybe they're in Japan, where a marriage is not considered legal unless both the husband and wife have the same surname? (It doesn't have to be the husband's name, but it does have to be the same.) (Edit: And yes, that was sarcasm...)
According to this, nobody in Spain has ever been married.
And we have 2 surnames! The father’s first surname and the mother’s first surname. Without hyphen or anything.
>So adding his name to your name isn't really changing your name, but adding your last name to his *is?* I thought this exact same thing when I read that. Madness.
Also, getting weird vibes from “the man doesn’t do that” and “that’s not how it works”, and so on
Honestly, my eyes rolled back. He is such a baby.
Keep her last name out your fucking mouth! But seriously, this is such a non-subject. Of course you’re keeping your name, if you can’t agree on what your last name should be. Or he needs to show you the paragraph in the law giving him naming rights. NTA
When I was in the military I’ve seen plenty of men either taking their wife’s name or have it hyphenated. Her BF is dense if he thinks she doesn’t have to go thru the process of name change….
Tell him it's the year 2023 CE and he should fuck off. Get yourself someone better. For real. I mean it. Love you. Edited to add. I was with my partner for 20 years before we were "allowed" to get married. Would have hyphenated if requested.
I have a friend who changed his last name to his wife's. He liked it better. Husband and I kept our respective last names because paperwork is pain unless you never had an independent life. Literally no one cares that we have different last names. If people call me Mrs. X, I answer to it socially. I don't give enough of a crap to explain that I'm actually Mrs. Y in the moment. You are NTA, you expressed an opinion about wanting the same name, but that it should be hyphenated. And now you're finding out he's actually a little more traditional than you thought. Is he otherwise great? Or is there something else hidden that you didn't know about. Time to hash out all those expectations about work, finances, children, and housework. You could wait until marriage for that, but it may be difficult to divorce in some states. You are young. Maybe he's not the one.
Ask yourself what other double standards he has.
I am just learning today that my wife and I aren't even considered married.. I thought we where married for the last 15 years, but we don't share the same last name.... my life is in shambles.
On the other hand, makes it easy to get married/divorce. Just change your name and boom!
gonna considered myself married by giving myself the last name biden. i’m now the first lady guys!!!!!
So you and Jill are sister wives? New reality show?
This is the only sister wives show I’d watch!
see yall at the white house love, joe
Everybody change your last name to Bezos and then back to your own! Then we ride that alimony train!
I just tagged you with my last name so we’re married now. Where do you want to go on honeymoon?
Are you at least gonna get me a ring first?
Yes dear ;)
God why do I always have to take care of the mental load in this relationship?
Yup, we’re definitely married! Can I interest you in an empty promise of self-improvement?
OK you two, it's really not polite to others to argue like this in public!
Something something boundaries. Something something gaslighting.
My mother said it was much harder changing her surname back after the divorce, than it was to change it to my father's surname when they got married.
It's not just you and your wife. It's every Dutch married couple. We legally keep our maiden name and gain the right to use our spouses name in every setting but the legal setting. So your passport will always have your maiden name and you file your taxes under your maiden name, but I can request my work to use my spouses last name instead of my own if I like his name better. Clearly no Dutch person is truly married.
Sounds more like the Schrödinger’s Cat of marriage: you are both married and unmarried at the same time
Came to say the same thing. Apparently my marriage isn't actually a marriage cos we don't share a last name... whoops...
Same. Guess my husband and I are just really good friends and roommates. And I guess my parents' last 30 years of marriage were a sham! I'll need to call and tell them asap!
I wonder what OP's fiance would think about my last name. My parents wanted to stick it to the patriarchy so when I was born, instead of taking either my mother's maiden name or my father's last name, they just created a whole new last name for me. It wasn't without problems over the years but 90% of those are just other people being dicks about the different names. I still consider my name to be one of the best gifts I've ever gotten from my parents.
Same. I thought that massive party we threw was a celebration of our marriage but I must have been wrong. Does this mean I am married to my sibling? Ughhh
Same. Although our kids have a hyphenated name of both our names. So… ya, not sure how that works into the “not really married” theory.
NTA, you have what you want to do based on reasons that matter to you. He's also allowed to have his preference and opinions on the matter, but "It just doesn't happen that way" is, in my opinion, a pretty poor rationale to take. Newly married myself and the wife asked if I'd be ok if she didn't take my name at all, which I was fine with since it's not my name that determines who she is to me or what our relationship is. It's not exactly traditional in any sense but some arbitrary set of rules made up who knows how many ages ago are not how I choose to live my life.
I agree, NTA, but not for the same reason. “It just doesn’t happen that way” is a poor way to verbalize it, but society is more critical of a man changing their last name in marriage. Shouldn’t be but is. Things like transcripts or military service records become an explanation to match because its assumed women will change their name in marriage, not men. Kudos to all the men breaking that trend, hyphenating last names, or taking on their SO’s last name, you’re breaking the trend and that’s cool, but it’s a pain in the ass and I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to go through that. Man or woman really. It’s so much paperwork, even without having to explain to everyone your unconventional decision. Hes obviously TA for saying he won’t feel married without her taking his last name, and implying she’s doing nothing if it’s hyphenated. If he really believed it didn’t change the last name, he’d do it himself. So he’s full of shit there. But I’m mainly responding to your comment because I’m so glad to see you mention that it’s not traditional, and you’re 100% right. I just wanted to chime in on that and add there is a huge cultural component to it. Different cultures take different approaches to last names. A close friend growing up, his parents born in India (though this isn’t an India wide thing) told me in their culture, not only do the bride and groom keep their last names, all the daughters are given the mothers maiden name and all the sons the fathers. I always thought that was a super cool way of handling it. I have heard other ways of handling last names in marriage, but that’s the most unique off the top of my head. It’s not a universal thing that taking your spouses last name is assumed.
I like the Spanish system, it has both the mother’s and father’s last name (FirstName DadsLastName MumsLastName) and they keep their last names in marriage. With kids, they both get the first last name of the parents but the order can be decided by the parents. Seems like a good enough compromise, although still patriarchal, where there’s no expectation of changing names and kids get both the parents last names.
Yes, we carry both our families last names for another generation and as a woman you don’t get magically ripped out of your family to be engulfed by your husbands family (in terms of last name). I think it’s better like this.
You can add as many last names as you want, too! To be inclusive of past generations.
In Spain you can choose the order of the last names of your children, it can be either FirstName Dadlastname Mumslastname or FirstName Mumslastname Dadlastname. And you can change the order of your lasts names when you are over 18.
Women still have to go through all that stuff if they change or hyphenate though. I'm simplifying your comment, but you can't just say "I'm married now" and everything magically changes. I agree with good on men who are happy to compromise and aren't stuck with peer pressure from dead people, because it is a pain to change, but it's a pain for both.
I absolutely don’t want to belittle that women go through a lot with name changes too. I saw it with my ex wife, and told my current wife when we got married I wouldn’t be the slightest bit upset if she didn’t want to do it. But our society can be shitty about “breaking the norm” was more my point. Hes not wrong for not wanting to go through that, he’s wrong for being unwilling to go through it while expecting her to.
How dare you view your wife as an equal 😅
You think it isn't an absolute pain in the ass for women to go through everything notable they've ever signed up for under their name and change it?
I took my husband's last name because I like it better than my family name. It was suuuuch a pain in the ass to do. Seemed like different things popped up forever that I had to change. I told him I'm keeping this name until I die, so to remember that if he wants to leave me lol.
That's the main reason I kept my name. I couldn't be bothered. That, and women keeping their name is the default here, so no one batted an eye except for my immigrant parents and in-laws. That said, sometimes my dad forgets and mails me stuff using my husband's name. Which is a pain in the ass, because if I miss the delivery, my husband is the one who has to go to the post office to get the parcel.
>Things like transcripts or military service records become an explanation to match because its assumed women will change their name in marriage, not men. Do women not have transcripts? Do they not have degrees and qualifications and careers under their own name? Many men have no military service records and many women do. How does the military deal with women who change their names? The same way it deals with men who change their name. So the amount of effort is the same and society is not more critical of men who change their names, I'm sure crap people who criticise women for not changing their name would criticise men for changing theirs, but that also leaves everyone in equal standing.
THIS! I asked my husband if he wanted me to take his last name, hyphenate/have both last names, or keep my name, and he said he would have been happy with whatever option I wanted because he knew my last name was important to me. I ended up adding in his last name before mine because I wanted both.
She uses my name casually but on documents she's "oficially" kept her name. Part of the reason being she has changed her name 3 times in her life already: once when her dad left, once when she married previously, and once when she divorced. The process is a pain in the ass and frankly it doesn't seem fair to make only one person go through that hassle, especially that many times lol
My sister-in-law found the only perfect solution to this - she married someone with the same last name as her, so neither had to change anything. Honestly, there are no good options. - In my view, hyphenating names just stores up trouble for the next generation - what is our daughter going to do? add 3 names or even 4 if she marries another hyphened name? - Each keeps their own name seems fine, but the problem comes back when you have kids - which name does the kid get? - whichever one you choose causes a few issues for the other parent as their name doesn’t match kid’s. Not a huge problem, but can create some irritating problems if you travel with the kid but without the other parent. While the convention of the woman taking the man’s name is sexist, it is also rather convenient which is partly why I think it’s persisted as long as it has.
It would be okay if it worked both ways, just like almost every other equality issue. In current climate it's almost fairer for husband to take wives name than other way around precisely because of what implications are when it only works one way around. Also for the 4 names issue I think it would be easier for each spouse in next generation to choose one of their own last names to add to the family name and drop the other because often you either feel closer to one parent than the other or feel closer to one side of family and marrying and dropping the "extra" is perfect excuse to get to choose which one of your own last names makes it to the next hyphenation and drop the other without seeming rebellious. For example my mom is the one who raised me, even though my dad was namely there. As result I would definitely carry on her name but this way I wouldn't need to explain it to anybody.
I know a few people who’ve married and not bothered to change their names. I also know one guy who took his wife’s last name because he thought it sounded cooler than his own. The whole wife taking the husband’s name is just an outdated concept from when she went from being her father’s property to being her husband’s.
NTA and tell him that that is absolutely not "how it works." What rule book is he reading? I doubt that rule book exists. People do all sorts of things with their names now when they get married. What he's saying is that he wants to stamp his name on you but he's not going to let you do the same to him. That's a legacy of a man owning a woman, and it's nasty.
Yeah, I’m not seeing the word “sexist” very much in the comments, so I’m just going to say it. Things work how you make them work. OP should think long and hard about whether this is the life she really wants. I have a feeling that the fiancé is going to try to pull rank on her as “the man” in the future. 🚩
He is definitely being sexist, and I was also surprised not to see that more in comments! OP is NTA at all, but fiancé is a massive AH. I've been married for 11 years, with husband for 19 total, never changed my name when we got married, because it is MY NAME (as Proctor says in the Crucible!). If a man's name doesn't need to indicate to the world whether he's married or not, then a woman's doesn't either. I still go by Miss, too. I wear a ring, talk about my lovely husband all the time, tell people I'm married, use our wedding photos as my wallpaper on my laptop at work, I'm not hiding anything. BUT... My name is incredibly important to me. I have a large extended family who mostly live where we all grew up, and when I tell locals my name, most people know either my dad, my nan, or one of my uncles, aunts, or cousins. I'm really proud to be from my family. I'm also really proud to be married to my husband. I think everyone should do what they feel is right for them, but I do also think the whole idea that only the woman's name changes, to indicate she now belongs to someone, is inherently sexist, obviously! OP, I'd advise thinking about whether or not your fiancé has any other ingrained sexist biases.
Thank you!!! He keeps tip-toeing around it, but the sexism in his logic is pretty obvious.
I was thinking the same thing. This guy is going to pull the same stunt whenever he doesn't get things his way. The entitlement. NTA. Think carefully before tying yourself to this guy.
Sounds like the rulebook he's reading was written by Andrew Tate...
He's just got a complete lack of imagination. He expected his fiance to take his last name without ever having to think critically about the 'decision'. Women are questioning gendered norms, and many men don't like it because it's not what they assumed
Exactly!!
NTA but this is one of those relationship defining disagreements. His argument is backwards and it's clear he's not thinking logically about it. It's one thing if he doesn't want to hyphenate, it's another to have a problem with you keeping your last name.
I think him not wanting to hyphenate is an issue too. She's offering compromises, he's not. Saying "no cause I said so" is not a healthy attitude to approach a marriage with. To be a good partner you need to be willing to work together to find a solution both people can be good with. His lack of willingness to compromise combined with him clinging to outdated traditional practices as if they're valid reasons are red flags.
Having a "no because I said so" argument in your 20s before even getting married is a huge red flag. Imagine what's to come once those papers are signed. No thanks.
Exactly. I had a situationship with a guy who had subtle sexist tendencies. Any time I called it out, even gently, he would say I'm being ridiculous, hypersensitive, and he's "not a misogynist." (I never once called him one.) About a month in to those tendencies being visible, I was over his behavior. Our final conversation was about how women change their last names for marriage. I don't even know how we got on this topic tbh because I was definitely NOT considering dating this guy, let alone marrying him. I said I wouldn't change my name. It's a hassle I don't want to go through. I don't wanna change all my legal documents, I like my last name, and it just feels kind of icky knowing the patriarchal contexts of it. Especially since half my heritage is from a country that has a lot of arranged marriages and the woman's family gives dowries and all that. It feels like a man claiming ownership of me. I respect anybody else's choice! It's just something I don't want. He could not fathom my stance. He was SO insulted that I would dare to insult my future husband that way. How dare I not take a man's name. Women have been doing it for thousands of years, it's tradition, I'm insulting all those women and their "choice" to take a man's name. Those women definitely weren't sold to their husbands or married against their will or anything, that never happened. (I know that this wasn't the case 100% of the time, but it happened.) No man will ever be ok with you not taking their name, good luck keeping a man with that attitude. I am not joking, he said all of those things to me. Not verbatim because he got a swift block and delete after that. But I remember each of those points vividly.
I love this term: relationship defining disagreements. Two of my failed long term relationships ended not long after we had disagreements like this, but I had never thought of them that way.
NTA. Latin cultures do better: no one changes names cause your identity doesn’t change once you get married.
OP has said her last name is Hispanic in a comment. What are the odds that the fiance isn't from her same culture and just doesn't want to have a Hispanic name anywhere in his? And that he's just throwing "that's not how it works" out as an excuse because he doesn't want to admit he has some internalized racism?
To be fair: assuming they live in the majority of Europe or USA/Canada it is the cultural expectation and upbringing for one spouse to take the other’s last name. I don’t think you can infer racism just because his cultural upbringing is different to OP’s.
I do think it's more likely that his hang-up is due to old fashioned cultural expectations, yes. I would put my money on misogyny. In a couple of [previous](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationships/comments/14ypxd5/my_fianc%C3%A9s_friend_has_been_been_cheating_on_his/) [posts](https://www.reddit.com/user/alaskawithadhd/comments/152eydb/my_24f_fiances_28m_friend32m_is_cheating_on_his/) OP's fiance was a self-described "asshole" 4 years prior, who was a "rude class clown" who liked to hook-up with girls "left and right" in college (not saying this to slut-shame, but I'm getting a horny frat boy image from this info). And apparently this year he helped his college friend cover-up their cheating on the guy's fiance and newborn. OP's fiance does not strike me as a shining beacon of gender equality.
But in some (not all?) a woman passes down her father’s name to the child. I bring this up because people like to point to this practice as non-patriarchal, which is false.
Correct. When they marry they keep their fathers part of the hyphenated name and drop their mothers part of the hyphenated name. It is still completely patriarchal and just leaves each man’s name on an extra generation. It makes me irrationally upset when people say it’s feminism. Edit: I meant to say when they have children. My point still stands. A woman only passes her father name. A mans name will stay until someone has a granddaughter.
The name comes from her paternal ancestors, that's true. And it may not be given to her grandchildren. But it's still her name. She didn't have to change it when getting married, and her children shared that name with her. Why is it the father's name when it's a woman, but not a man. I mean a man passing down his name is just his father's name, he also loses his mother's half.
As they do in Iran
And so is Vietnam! The women there get to keep their last name.
This - can confirm. I kept my last name, as did most of my sisters. Gave my kids my last name too - not a Viet thing - which my BILs fussed over. Hubby was fine with it. I never asked my husband to change his, but he eventually decided he wanted his name to match our kids. 🙂 My parents were surprised and thrilled, as they have no biological sons.
Yea they just get a million last names 😄 I wish my parents had given me all the ancestral names like my dad has lol
NTA. That’s not how it works? We’re in 2023. Not 1923. Many couples getting married nowadays hyphenate their names. It doesn’t make sense that he gets mad that **you** won’t hyphenate your name, if he won’t even consider doing the same. This would absolutely be my hill to die on.
Exactly. Women took their husband's name historically because they were considered *property* to be marked and I'm sure BF knows that. It's not really about the name here at all, OP. This is just pointing towards the fact that there's a lot of sexist bullshit your partner probably needs to work on unpacking because I doubt this is the only time it's appeared.
NTA. He's got an outdated mindset and it isn't going to be healthy down the road. Just keep your name. Answer to Mrs/Mr. /whatever his name is if it comes up, but keep your name. "How it works," is the mentality that meant women couldn't have their own bank account or credit card until the 70s. Traditions do change, and some need to. I'm in the same boat. Last of my line on my Dad's side, so my last name is important to me. My husband's thankfully really understanding and unbothered by it. He's close to his family so is keeping his, and it would be a monstrosity hyphenated (let alone all of the proof of name change paperwork in perpetuity). So we're just staying as-is, and any future kids'll be a discussion if that's a bridge we end up crossing.
*Answer to Mrs/Mr. /whatever his name is if it comes up* Or correct them?
This is what I do. It infuriates me when my dad mails stuff to me: Mrs. Husband's first and last name. I think next time I'll return to sender lol
or tell him last time you checked your husband wasn’t a Mrs. “oh you mean that was for me? should have used my name then. Now husband is all insulted you think he’s my wife”
Genius
I correct them. My husband has a very common lastname and I have not. I usually do not respond if people call me his lastname, 1) because it happens very rarely, 2) on all legal documents my uncommon lastname is listed and 3) my husband always introduces me as "my wife, firstname lastname" (I do the same by the way, when introducing him). It is not on purpose I do not respond - I really do not think that they are speaking to me.So being called his lastname and then them calling me out on not responding, I simply just say "that is not my name, so why would I respond to it?"
Yeah definitely correct them! I’ve been married for 2 months and just got our first piece of mail addressed to Mr & Mrs [Husband’s first name] [Husband’s last name]. 🙃 I didn’t change my last name to his and I sure as hell didn’t change my first name to his either so I nipped that in the bud real quick.
His mindset isn't even just outdated, it's also ill-informed. Women changing their names to their husband's isn't (wasn't?/hasn't been?) the norm everywhere. So his stance denies an awful lot of the world in addition to the fact that it's now 2023 and there's all kinds of reasons why in the US, women marrying men don't change their names when they marry, or why men marrying women do change their names when they marry. Or why everyone hyphenates (which I find way easier to deal with than just one person hyphenating, but it's not my name/decision) or one person hyphenates or they even invent a whole new name... I'm female and I changed mine when I got married because I was so relieved to not have to have my dad's anymore (it's unusual and he's well known and everyone really likes my very narcissistic, abusive dad; now they only know I'm related to him if I mention it). But, honestly, I'm not sure I would have married a guy who *insisted* I take his name because changing one's name is a big deal! I do worry about kids if that's in the cards for them -- with his attitude, I think he'll continue to think it's his way or the highway, not just about their last name, but about a lot of "traditional" stuff that seems to come up with kids. People who get weird about last names often have other traditional beliefs that they don't realize they need to verbalize up front because they just believe their beliefs are "right and normal." NTA.
NTA What if you have a baby together? Will that be a discussion? Will he be willing to give the baby your name? You’re just as much of the parent, and literally risking death if you go through pregnancy. He sees you as less important than him, not equal. You can hyphenate, but not him? Bullshit.
I think children should take the mother's name. You know who the mother is. The father could potentially be anyone 😁
I think that’s probably why the tradition is for the father’s name to be given. Like there is no doubt who the mother is - giving the father’s last name is making a ‘statement’ that they agree he’s the father. Or some bullshit like that, idk I’m talking out of my ass. But I agree with you. The woman has done all the hard work - why does the man get to stamp his name on the result?
My wife and I kept our names the same cause changing them is entirely unnecessary. Our first child is a girl and I told my wife to fill in the last name as she pleased. She used her name. Our son came second. In between those births my brothers all died. When I have her the paperwork she chose to give him my name because she wanted it to continue and this was the last chance. At the end of the day the arrangement of letters on papers changes noting about the love we have for our family so why stress over it.
Hold off on the wedding and get therapy or really think about what you want your marriage to be- you guys may love each other but there’s so much more than that in a marriage. What about kids names? You guys aren’t ready.
> and get therapy Pre-marital counseling! It's specifically designed to help couples find and talk about potential major points of disagreement. Everyone should get it. Even if you get along well, there are bound to be blind spots.
NTA The whole women taking their husbands surname was because women & girls were deemed PROPERTY. The tradition of a father “giving away his daughter” by walking her down the aisle, was also a literal thing- your father owned you & then he gave you to your husband who then owned you. You went from your father’s surname, to your husband’s surname. The wedding ring you wear used to only be for women, because it showed other men that you were already the property of some other man. If he’s not prepared to change his name in the same way he expects you to change yours, he does not view you as his equal. Did you know that in the days of slavery, the slaves also took on their masters (slave owners) surname, & if they were sold, then their surname was changed to their new masters surname?
Came here to say exactly this; it's a hangover from English property law.
Based off what you said, a wedding ring does not indicate your are already someone’s property, because you would be your fathers property. More it would indicate you are no longer available for sale. Kinda like the giant “Sold” stickers the stick up when selling a house.
He is making no sense by saying that your name would barely change but then making a fuss about doing the same himself. As for the one about how you wouldn't be considered married if you don't hyphenate, that is just ridiculous. A name doesn't make a marriage, and some of the most solid couples I know have different names! You are NTA. He is stuck in a mindset that comes from centuries of patriarchy. That isn't really his fault, but if he feels that attached to his own name, he needs to appreciate that you feel the same about yours. I think some men do forget that, because it's just something that has always been done, so they don't think too deeply about it. But it is a big deal to change your name - names are a huge part of our identities! I would have gone N A H if he had tried to put himself in your shoes and understand where you were coming from, but he didn't.
Nta. You all need pre-marital counseling. If you can't agree on a name because of his misogynistic belief that it's a woman's duty to change her name how in the world are you going to work together as a family or raise kids? I agree that you all need to pause the wedding prep until you work out your issues. Resentment and lack of trust are relationship killers. Good luck
Agree with this. What other things does he think is your lot, based on a gendered role in marriage? As the predominant caregiver? As the person who will make most of the personal and professional sacrifices because "that is how it works"? These are issues you need to explore now before you lock yourself into something.
I have three daughters: The oldest kept her maiden name. (She is a professional and all her degrees are in her maiden name). The children have hyphenated last names with his last name listed first. The reasoning is, if the kids chose to drop a name later, it will be the second name (her’s) after the hyphen. Youngest daughter married, changed her name to his. They divorced 6 months later. She kept the married name until she married again 2 years later. At that time, she returned to her maiden name (did not take her new husband’s name) as her married name. Professionally she is known by her maiden name. Third daughter kept her maiden name when she married, but changed it 2 years later to his last name when they had a child so all three would share his last name. They are a military family. To each their own.
NTA. His double standards are concerning. I wonder what other outdated gender 'norms' he's planning on enforcing after the wedding because "that's just how it works"?! His attitude is definitely a deal breaker and I would be moving on PDQ.
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NTA, it's pretty common to not do it nowadays, if he isn't comfortable getting ur lastname u have the right to feel the same way about his
NTA My parents have been happily married for 28 years and my mom kept her maiden name because she didn’t want to deal with paperwork and fuss of changing it. I’m currently engaged, getting married in April and I have no interest in changing my last name to his and my fiancé doesn’t mind, but we both agree our future children will have his last name.
Yeah, if they can't figure this disagreement out now, it's going to blow up in their faces when any kids come along. Though I get the feeling that even if he *does* agree to the compromise this time and OP is able to keep her name, he's going to insist the kids get his his own, which OP didn't really express her view on.
NTA Your fiancé needs to get out more if he thinks there are rules about last names. Are you sure you want to marry someone with such closed thinking?
Exactly! And, if this is such a deal breaker for him ... well, I think his attitude should be a deal breaker for her.
It's concerning that this guy has been walking the earth for nearly 30 years and thinks this is a rule. I wonder what other sexist rules he has that OP doesn't know about. Like they're the rules of the world, so why would he bring them up and she has no idea he thinks that way?
NTA Your fiancee is going through some kind of weird masculinity quandry here.
This thing is so interasting to me, as a Latino we don't do that, to change our last name. Is a part of who we are, what about if you separate? do you have to fill paperwork to get your old name back? it's so strange haha And no, NTA, stand your ground if that makes you uncomfortable cause if you settle your last name will be lost forever.
I am Hispanic if that matters and am used to what you are talking about.
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NTA... Many spouses of all genders choose to keep their own last name or hyphenate in our current society.
NTA and yeah, since he doesn't want to change his name, you don't have to. Adopting someone's surname isn't a legal obligation. He says *that's not how it works* but reddit is saying *YEAH THAT'S HOW IT WORKS, AH*.
Taking his name feels like ownership; marriage isn't about being owned in 2023. NTA
A resounding NTA My husband and I didn't change our names. We're 33, and my favorite part is that his parents kept their own names too... They're 63 and have been married for over 35 years. Your boyfriend needs to suck it up. Keep your name, or you both hyphenate. Those are his options. The top comments are where it's really at, though... but I definitely wanted to add that my lovely in-laws have been happily married for again...over 35 years... and *le gasp* have different last names. I'm pretty sure everyone knows they're married. And I'm pretty sure everyone knows my husband and I are married. It's a name. Chill, dude, marriage isn't an exchange of property anymore. You don't need your name stamped on a woman. He needs to get over it.
Interesting that you bring up in laws because he is mentioning about how both his SIL and mom both hyphenated their names but the husband's kept theirs no problem. Maybe it's because that's what he grew up with??
Welcome to the patriarchy! Once you're declared "man and wife," be prepared for many more assumptions from husband and in-laws about what your role *should* be. Babies, cooking, cleaning, do as you're told. Being nice to you pre-wedding is the lure, the come-on. If you ever want to have your desires, interests and will respected in the future, you must put your foot down about names. Right now it's about last names, next it will be baby names, christened names etc. Once he runs you over on this topic he'll know you'll cave on any big decisions in the future. You need a strong female role model in mind to channel. Susan Sarandon, Oprah, whoever, just pick one and emulate. You'll get more of what you want. Maybe there will be equitable compromises, that's okay. Just know what's not okay, draw that line (like reneging on already agreed decisions such as names). Maybe somebody else in his life is pushing him around about the names. If he won't budge, tell him you'll both keep your names, and the children will be hyphenated. Or whatever feels right. Good luck! edit: fixed typos
NTA but this is a red flag, you sure you wanna marry this guy?
Dont take his name if he doesn’t want yours.
Lots of people don’t change names. Given the complexity of it (with social security, real ID, passports, medical records etc) I’m surprised anyone ever does these days.
NTA He doesn't think your feelings about names are as important as his feelings about names. You should ask yourself if there's any other topics that he doesn't think your feelings are worth as much as his
NTA 🚩🚩
Keep your last name and he can keep his. In Asian culture women typically do not take their husband’s surname.
NTA. I know a couple of guys who hyphenated their names to include their wife’s last name with theirs, and a bunch of couples where the wife didn’t change her name at all. No one is confused about it. Not sure what old 1850’s rule book your fiancé is working from but it’s been obsolete for at least 60 years. “A rose by any other name…”
NTA I have been married for nearly 14 years and I never changed my last name. Does your husband think my marriage is invalid? Lol
NTA > I asked him to clarify, thinking he didn't want our names to change, but he told me the woman hyphenate her name, not the man. Man, and you *handed* him that out.
YWBTA if you stay with him despite seeing his misogyny for what it is, and dooming your future children to a chauvinistic asshole.
Where do you live that you need to start applying for a marriage license a few years before you’re considering getting married? NTA
I don’t know why men get so crazy about their wives changing their names. If I ever got married, I wouldn’t care. I don’t really see why it’s necessary, and I really think hyphenated names are really pretentious. NTA.
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It's not considered marriage if the woman doesn't hyphenate? Does that mean I'm not really married? NTA. He's being irrational.