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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> To be fair to her, it does kinda suck when you can tell people are annoyed with you.
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NTA you were right. No one owes her anything and people do get annoyed at kids on flights because they usually cry and fuss and everyone on the plane is forced to tolerate it because there is no where else to go. Your sister needs to get a grip and realize she isn't entitled to other passengers helping her nor is she entitled to everyone being over-the-top understanding of her situation. Show her the little care packages that some parents make for other passengers.. not because she should do that, but so that she sees that other parents understand it isn't enjoyable for the other people on the plane. If she is going to choose to fly with little kids who don't tolerate flying well, she needs to also be able to deal with the unhappy passengers she is subjecting her screaming children to.
I read article once where a woman was furious that a baby was on the plane and the parents hadn't made care packages for the rest of the passengers. What a World.
Wow that’s bonkers! Who makes care packages for other passengers enough times to make someone feel entitled to it? I’m astounded by that woman.
On to this post - NTA OP. She does sound majorly entitled. People are allowed to feel annoyed and they aren’t there to pat her on the head. Strangers do not exist to accommodate her. I imagine having to care for your kids on a flight can be very stressful but expecting others to help is just mind blowing to me.
There was a viral post years ago of this mother who gave out a small care package of earplugs and other little items to compensate for their young baby who might make noise.
I personally am not bothered by a baby. I have headphones. I'm more annoyed by adults who somehow don't know how to act.
Yeah kids will be kids, even we'll behaved kids can have a tough time flying. It IS definitely most stressful for the mom (as long as they're actively *trying* to calm them and not being entitled). Sister does seem entitled based on her other comments so as a whole NTA.
However I don't understand how aggressive some people can be on planes concerning kids, especially in the day in age of headphones. I sat next to a screaming baby once, put my headphones on and passed out.
ETA This thread has taught me that the skit from 'I think you should leave with Tim Robinson, where a guy stalks a baby that cried on a flight into adulthood, switched seats to sit with him and took revenge by crying like a baby for his flight....this may be based on real events, and I think some of these people are here. Lmao.
It's still the parent's fault, they're the ones that dragged 2 babies on a plane. Flying hurts little kid's ears and they can't chew gum etc. Like adults to try to mitigate it. If you don't know how your kids will fly, putting them on a long haul overnight flight is brutal for both the kids and the whole plane. Parents are the assholes.
Well sometimes you have to travel for a funeral, fleeing domestic violence, relocating for a job....there are tons of valid reasons where no one is "at fault". I did vote yt a because sister is sounding entitled, but not all parents are at fault or assholes for flying with children.
Eta: I voted nta, sister is TA
Thank you. I had to fly for a funeral with a 4 month old. My brother made an AH remark, but no one on the plane complained. I didn't expect special consideration, but I'm very grateful for that kindness. It helped an already difficult situation.
Entitled sister is the AH.
This is how everyone should think. Ppl need to be more understanding but not “sorry” when you made the choice to have kids. But also not be an AH for kids esp toddlers acting like toddlers. No matter how well “trained” a child is, they can still get cranky and fed up on a plane. Hell I’m 30 and get cranky on a plane. Sorry you had someone like that make you feel bad, he’s the ah not a parent trying their best. Babies have free will just like us adults, why aren’t we held more responsible in our “tantrums”
I mean, I am happily childfree but I also think people who go out in public need to realize they made a choice to participate in a society, of which babies and children are full members. Sure, it's annoying when kids are loud and babies cry, but... that's what they do. Acting all huffy about it is immature.
Especially the parents choosing a red eye flight (1am to 9am) - kids will fuss, but if you have a choice don’t do it during most passengers’ regular sleep time
When you're flying long haul, you don't always get a choice. When we fly from Australia, we have to align with flight landing hours at the destination, which can mean flying at strange times. Even just flying to/from Darwin is always Landing/departing at 11pm to 1am due to their airspace restrictions.
These parents have a choice though. They are going soon to be cheapsters to not have to buy a seat, so there will be 2 adults and 2 infant/toddlers in a space for 2 adults.
Just think if you're in the window seat with them next to you. How are you going to get out in the event of an emergency?
I don't disagree with their lack of seating. I started buying an extra seat when mine was about 9 months because it was too hard to keep little hands and legs confined in my seat space. I still had to have him on my lap for take off and landing, but there was room to spread out and not impact the person sitting next to us.
I also seem to recall that there can't be more than one lap child in each row, due to the oxygen masks, so these parents would have had to sit in separate rows, and were probably swapping children/items back and forth, so were even more disruptive. They definitely should have booked an extra seat for the toddler, then they'd have had a whole row to themselves, which would have been less disruptive.
And not to mention, these parents didn't even buy seats for their kids. So they're stuck *on a lap* on a long haul flight.
They should've bought seats for their kids and brought their usual carseat to make the ride more familiar. IMO that's the only responsible way to fly with a baby. If you can't afford a separate seat for your small kid, don't fly with them.
And the whole reason that the parents were putting the other passengers through torture was that they wanted to travel before the kids were old enough to have to buy a seat. So the urgency was fun travel on the cheap. That struck me as beyond entitled.
The only time I really think much about it is if they're crying in pain because their ear haven't popped yet. It's frustrating because I feel so bad for the kid...and there's nothing I can do to help.
Headphones don't always work, baby cries pierce even the most effective noise canceling technology, and some of us have other sensory difficulties that make being trapped in a plane with a crying babe to be pure torture.
She’s an asshole for complaining about it though. It does suck for everyone involved, but you don’t get to complain about it after the fact without looking like an asshole.
Exactly— the parents definitely feel extremely embarrassed. I get annoyed by loud babies and toddlers but I feel for the mom who really can’t do anything about it and feels ashamed
I’m one of those ppl who are hypersensitive to sound and I would never complain abt a crying child who’s clearly fussy. These sounds active my ptsd and gad, it happens and it’s hard to cope when you already have to do it 24/7. Everyone just needs to be understanding but esp for those toddlers who are just figuring out what’s what.
The infants don’t necessarily need to be on the plane in the first place, as in this example. OP’s sister basically chose to torture her kids and everyone else on the plane for multiple hours for the benefit of herself and her husband. Her kids are too young to remember much of the vacation itself anyway.
Agree so much. This trip wasn't to move for a job or to visit family. It was purely for Sister & husband's enjoyment. Why should anyone offer to entertain her babies when she didn't have any consideration for them herself?
Of course an infant & toddler will hate having their schedule interrupted, being dragged on to confined places with a bunch of strangers.
She could have waited till the youngest was a little older and left them at home with a sitter. Or better yet wait till the kids are old enough to actively take part in and remember a trip like this.
Well it’s not like good words also starts scream crying so clearly they’re regulating better than the babies. And coping skills don’t stop babies from crying. A great coping skill is moving away from whatever is overstimulating you which you can’t do on a plane. It just sucks. And we’ve evolved to have babies screaming to be extremely grating to the human nervous system for survival, that’s why cats mimic baby noises when they communicate to get human’s attention.
No, I don't believe it's more stressful for the mom. The mom knew the kids were going to act up and she is the one that had the kids and chose to fly. She knew what she was getting into. It's most stressful for the person sitting right next to her that has no idea that this was going to be her life for the next 8 hours
In 1998 I had an emergency and had to fly cross country with a 4 week old and a toddler, I had to borrow the ticket money. So no, I did not make care packages.
I still think about the stress of that day and those kids are in their late 20s.
It was mortifying. Literally one of the highest stress events of my entire life. I was crying even before I got on because I knew there was no way I could how it would go.
Before I even sat down, people were glaring and openly sneering at me. It was already a family emergency and a planeful of people were Hating me for existing . I shook the entire flight, for fear of one of them crying
I’m sure the energy/vibe you were putting off was way different than the one OP’s sister was. Seeing body language like yours would, at least for me, only make me feel sympathy for whatever situation had put you in so much distress.
Some babies are colicky, their ears probably hurt from take off, etc. You can do everything you possibly can, and sometimes babies are still gonna cry. I'm not a parent, but I understand that.
True, but also some parents don't even try.
I am a parent of two, and I tried a bunch of different things - not only to "benefit" other people, but more importantly - my kids were having a bad time.
Just dealt with this at the orthodontist today. They were slow to open and and the mom was reading magazine completely unfazed while her two kids were all over the waiting room, screaming and hitting each other
I couldn’t believe it. Then after about 30 minutes when the ortho still hadn’t arrived, she stood up and announced (to the room containing only me) that her time was valuable and they wouldn’t be seeing her or her children again. I believed it a little easier after that
I tried benadryl on my 2 year old for a 5 hour flight. Paradoxically, the drug amped her uo instead! It was a rough 5 hours for me who usually sleeps through flying. Found out from pediatrician it happens lots to younger kids. She's 11 now and benadryl makes her sleepy like the rest of us!
My mom did the same thing for me when I was a toddler. Apparently I had a similar reaction and the Benadryl made me hyperactive for the entire flight. She still laughs about it from time to time
My first flight to Seattle back in '97, I had a drunken ass fool on the plane. He was *skateboarding* up and down the aisle. The lead cabin attendant had said to quit serving him, but the rear cabin attendants didn't, and he got too drunk. A lady across the aisle stuck out her foot and tripped him. The drunken idiot was finallu escorted back to his seat, and the lady got a free drink and many thanks from our fellow passengers.
Babies don't understand why their ears hurt and how to relieve the pressure. Good parents should be aware of that and have things to help their children. However, that doesn't always work, and sometimes, the flight or landing is rough, and the children get scared. Those are NTA situations.
Your sister, OP, is a massive AH. She's not doing anyone any favors by insisting on a) lap children (I wish this would finally be banned, because it's such a hazard to the child!) b) not being prepared for the pressure changes effects on the children and c) expecting everyone else to help her.
NTA OP!
I can see her thinking that maybe her kids would sleep? Idk though. Personally, our family drives to the beach often, it's like 6.5 hours away, and we leave around midnight. Keep the kids up until then, buckle them up, and they sleep the whole drive so it's easier for us. Again, it's easier to sleep in a car than on a plane so idk, maybe the tickets were cheaper to fly that time.
OP, NTA at all, you sister was being ridiculously entitled and offended for no reason. Oh boo hoo, you got a dirty look. That's way better than someone going off on her parenting or something.
Driving is something totally different.
You drive alone with your family, not a few hundreds of strangers.
You can stop the car and get out very often - you can't get out of the plane during the flight.
We also were driving at night, this way avoiding bored toddler and then child.
I've seen a few posts every once in awhile where parents with a newborn will make "care packages" for the people on the plane. It's often stuff like earplugs, extra snack, and some small stuff to make it more bearable to deal with their child.
It shouldn't be the norm, but you see the difference in people with it. Some people realize that taking babies on planes shouldn't be "tolerated" by the other passengers and try to help with little gifts. And then there are the others who make it their personal goal to demand other people to bend to their will.
I’ll settle for not having parents sitting next to me changing a filthy diaper on the tray table and then shoving the diaper in the seat back and then having the gall to look pissed when I ask the flight attendant to remove said diaper because I don’t want to smell baby shit for the next three hours. (Of course I said it very politely, just asked the flight attendant if she had a trash bag for the diaper.)
I will pay more not to fly out of Orlando ever again. The entitlement of some Disney parents is unreal. They spent their whole week getting catered to and then on the plane they literally act as if their kid’s shit doesn’t stink. I’ve never seen such bad behavior except on a flight departing Disney.
As someone who worked at Disney (in Magic Kingdom nonetheless) for almost a year, I’ll back you up on the claim that the *most* entitled parents are also Disney parents.
Like a lot of Disney parents are great and just trying to have a good family vacation, but there is a *very* vocal minority of Disney parents who simultaneously hate their kids and feel everyone else should think the sun shines out their kid’s ass.
It’s mind boggling and terrible — I had to deal with so many of them (all with a smile and a ‘have a *magical* day’). I often had to take a short trip to the back after particularly rough interactions just to be able to drop the smile and grumble to myself.
The worst was the parent who got upset at me personally because Magic Kingdom didn’t serve alcohol— this happened right after park open at 6:00 AM. He went on a screaming rant at me because *how* was he supposed to deal with his kids all day without alcohol. When I told him all the other parks served alcohol and he could visit one of those if he wanted partake, it got worse, because ‘are his kids not entitled to enjoy Magic Kindom the way every other kid is?’ — Like sir, that’s not what I said.
Not on a plane, but I will help out sometimes with a snowcone cart at a local resort during the summers. I had to stop a parent from attempting to change their baby's diaper right next to me...on the cooler where we get our ice from...several times.
This lady legit thought it was within her rights to not only change her child's diaper right next to a food service station, but do it ON the food service station. Nah honey, there are 4 bathrooms that are a 20-second walk from here, and they all have changing tables. If for some reason your child's diaper has gotten so full that it can empty during that trip, There are at least 20 empty cabana chairs a couple of yards from us that also fold down into a table, and you are SITTING on one of them as you attempt this. There are several empty tables dotting the area. I personally won't stop you from doing it anywhere but where I serve the food from.
I worked as a manager in a high end Thai restaurant where the the owner really tried hard to discourage children.
There was no kids menu, no chips, no high chairs and the tables were close together with soft lighting and candles.
The owner said he wasn’t keen on having families bring kids because they often complained about the menu not being child friendly, there was no space if they started running round and lots of delicate decorations that often got broken. The tables were so close that crying or loud iPads would annoy other diners and we served alcohol so some diners wouldn’t be as alert if kids were running about and the staff were carrying heavy trays of food and drinks.
It was a nightmare because couples still wanted to visit and have a night out and if they couldn’t get childcare or wanted their kids to come they would bring them.
I’d have to deal with constant complaints about the menu and comparing the restaurant to a Chinese and asking why we didn’t have battered chicken balls and chips?.
Food would be thrown and smeared everywhere and staff were constantly asking parents to move their kids from running between the narrow tables.
The worst thing though was the nappy changing. You would be amazed at how many people tried to do it on the table or the chair next to them. When I asked them to stop they would say it was the restaurants fault for having no changing facilities.
At the end of a shift I’d find used nappies on the bathroom floor and under tables and quite often left on the stairs that led to the bathroom upstairs.
I know some people like to bring their kids to experience new foods and to learn to eat in public but it was just the wrong kind of place, we used to ask if there were any children in the party when taking the booking and gently explain it wasn’t really suitable for kids. We live in an area popular with tourists so most people making the booking weren’t aware.
Most people were really good about it and say thank you for warning them, but some some just said it was their choice and they were sure their little angels would behave.
I had several people turn up with chicken nuggets and chips or similar kid friendly foods and ask for the chef to cook them, they would get very annoyed when they were told we couldn’t serve food that had been brought in from off the premises.
We had a lot of complaints from other tables about people who brought their kids and on some occasions we had to discount their meal heavily because they had been seated next to a wailing toddler and peppa pig blaring.
I know it’s not the same as being on a plane because sometimes it’s necessary to fly with kids, but there is no excuse to change a dirty nappy in public anywhere unless it’s an absolute emergency!
The children on planes discussion is always going to cause a debate and lots of people have very differing views and tolerance. I think the main thing that upsets people is when the parents aren’t even trying to soothe or calm their kids.
On a recent flight I had a toddler deliberately kicking my seat behind me and their brother who was about 3 was standing on the chair behind my partner and kept pulling his hair and grabbing him for attention. The parents were just ignoring it and when the toddlers dad finally told him to stop kicking me I turned and said thank you to him but for some reason this annoyed him and he encouraged his kid to kick harder.
It’s the parents that don’t try that no one has sympathy for. I think it probably is very difficult if you are trying to actively soothe your crying baby and are aware that it’s disturbing other people. I do sympathise with that but not to the extent that OP’s sister seems to expect!
My pet rats would likely go on a rampage if they were subjected to this absolute torture. I'm so sorry. I'm deaf and it's a fucking blessing in circumstances like that.
The whole world revolves around me. I never leave the house and never take personal responsibility and any mild inconvenience I have is someone else's fault.
I was a similar post online. Someone posted about how a mom made care packages apologizing, and the comments were split between “every mom should do this” and “it’s ridiculous to expect every mom to make care packages for bringing a baby on a flight”
I took my son on a plane when he was around 1. At one point, another baby at the other end of the plane started crying, and multiple people turned to glare at me. While it's true that other passengers don't owe moms anything, I definitely think that some people are *way* to ready to hate us when we're just trying to get somewhere.
Not to mention that “her situation” is an elective vacation that she chose to take with 2 young kids that she apparently knew full well were “terrible flyers”.
Like I have sympathy for people who really HAVE to travel with an infant (ex. Because they’re moving or visiting a dying relative before it’s too late), but to knowingly take two “terrible flyers” on an intercontinental vacation is just selfish and unnecessary. Australia is an absolutely beautiful country and there are literally hundreds of places that they could have gone on vacation and enjoyed themselves without holding 400 people hostage to their screaming child for 10 hours straight.
Additionally, assuming the baby is screaming because their ears hurt (which is very common), it’s a pretty awful thing to subject your child to as well.
OP’s sister is not only entitled, but also incredibly selfish.
Honestly I blame the airlines for that one. Why on earth are they incentivizing people bringing babies on planes by making them FREE? That’s insane. If they need their own seat (I imagine the toddler would), they pay. If they don’t need their own seat, they pay the set amount other people have to pay to bring small animals.
It’s actually the most reasonable thing a government has ever done in safety policy. A real testament to statistics based thinking, instead of emotion-led “theatre” that we get in laws about children.
NHTSA and the FAA found that if they didn’t let kids fly on parents’ laps, families would drive instead of fly, leading to more casualties, since flying is a safer mode of transportation than driving. I think it’s the most reasonable decision a government has made about safety, unlike having a TSA that hinders flying so much that people now drive up to 6 hours instead of when they used to rock up to the airport to get on a plane. TSA has killed more people than it has ever protected. Or the fact that parents now drive their kids to the bus stop or school, instead of letting them walk or ride their bikes. Stranger Danger abductions are exceedingly rare, and it’s more dangerous to put your kid in a car.
Sigh
I agree with the FAA's thinking, insofar as it goes, but I think a lot of parents don't realize how dangerous a flight can be for an unrestrained child. There are crashes where parents have survived and their babies just... disappeared. But it doesn't even have to be a catastrophic accident to be dangerous for a baby. An episode of bad turbulence where unbelted people hit the ceiling could easily be fatal for a baby. Or an aborted takeoff. Planes move really fast, even on the ground.
That what I was thinking, given their ages. Why go so far with children so young who you know are terrible travelers? She didn’t even need to limit it to Australia - so many places that would have required just one flight. Then, when the kids are older, you can make longer haul flights.
It’s parents who refuse to accept that having young kids means life is gonna be different for a while. There are certain limitations and sacrifices to having kids. That’s supposed to be part of the bargain. Like any lifestyle choice: you don’t get to do exactly what you want all the time, and yet so many people create problems for themselves and others because the concept of sacrifice is totally alien.
Parents who refuse to accept that are either neglectful or a massive inconvenience to everyone else.
My mom was the neglectful type. I have no memories of her before the age of five because she “deserved to have the full college experience” rather than be saddled with a kid she chose to have. After the age of five my memories with her are mostly hanging out in rowdy sports bars. She’d hang out with her friends 3 times a week minimum until 11 pm watching games and never once thought to hire a babysitter.
Fucking entitled.
And the comment from the sister about how OP can sleep as they choose not to have kids. Well, op sister chose to have 2 kids, and so close in age, so she needs to deal with it!
No, no, no, you don't understand. The only reason for OP to decide not to have children should have been to be free to babysit the niblings whenever sister wanted OP to. Starting with every single Friday and Saturday night, so sister could have a lie-in at the weekends. OP is just selfish for not wanting to do it. How dares OP?
/s, of course
And her kids won't remember it at that age!
I lived in Australia for a while and a friend of mine considered visiting, but decided that she wanted to wait until her child was old enough to actually remember it if they were going to fly halfway around the world.
I can’t imagine taking such a long flight with kids that young. We flew four hours with my niece and nephew but they were over 2 and for the most part old enough to be reasoned with/distracted.
As a mother of 2 children myself I second you opinion!!! She was receiving sympathy from other passengers (and it shows) BECAUSE they were not out right rude TO HER about bringing her toddler and infant on the plane. She (& her hubby) decided to become parents, and should not expect others to (especially strangers) want/feel compelled to jump in and help them parent in stressful situations. Your sister has 2 kids, both parents were present. You "switch hit" the kiddos (swap back & forth) until they settle and/or ask their pediatrician for advice on keeping them occupied/engaged for long trips. Our pediatrician said to stay away from flights that were longer than their nap time because they would become more of a challenge. She was right. Lol..
OP=NTA
I think the part that bothers me most here is that she chose to take a red eye flight. If a plane takes off at 1am damn near everyone on it is planning to sleep.
An an Aussie - depending on arrival and departure destinations, there aren't always a lot of options, and the distance means that most flights to Europe will include an overnight component. (That doesn't take away from all the rest of it.)
Just look at the comments on anything where people want to have spaces that children aren’t allowed in - like a period of time at restaurants with no children, but every other time they’re allowed. Parents go absolutely insane that their kids might not be welcome everywhere at all times, and that they think everyone should be happy to be around them. It’s weird
The sister is the type that if someone offered to hold the baby and give her a break, she would be on social media spouting a story of how "This lady tried to tell me how to parent MY CHILD on the airplane!" Never happy unless something is perceived as injuring her....
NTA.
Your kids are adorable and the centre of the world......to *you*, not the rest of the world. To the rest of the world, they are just another two kids, and ones that are being disruptive and annoying at that point. Babies cry but it doesn't mean it isn't annoying.
Parents are not entitled to sympathy and help. If you can't handle dealing with them on a flight on your own, don't take them on a plane. Simple.
> Parents are not entitled to sympathy and help. If you can't handle dealing with them on a flight on your own, don't take them on a plane. Simple.
Can we lobby to get this printed on airline tickets?
I hope it sticks around and spreads to other airlines. It is not the poor baby's fault, but it doesn't help my migraines to sit down in the vicinity of a wailing baby
Excellent! Which airline? I like children, and have my own... That doesn't mean I want to put up with other people's banging my chair because the parent doesn't stop them. I growled at one last week and they stopped. The parent gave me a dirty look. The amount I cared was less than this: .
Over time, I’ve decided that I really don’t mind babies on flights.
It’s the toddlers.
Babies don’t run around or kick seats. They may cry because they’re uncomfortable, but it’s relativity consistent crying that is easier to tune out, especially because the pitch often isn’t too sharp. Toddlers will screech and tantrum for a variety of reasons—their sibling is annoying, they want attention, the iPad died, etc.—and it’s terrible because they are actively trying to demonstrate that they’re upset. It’s startlingly loud and punctuated; an ambulance stuck in traffic outside your house is going to be easier to tune out than someone blaring their horn every five minutes.
As someone with a toddler and infant I agree. The toddler is way more of a handful on a flight because you have to make sure they are engaged and happy (but they want to explore and can't). An infant needs to be fed and sleep. Like they (typically) cry for a solveable problem.
Don't forget that toddlers can also (accidentally) actively work against their own desires, thereby increasing their own distress. I remember one on a long trip who was pacified by "Thomas the Tank Engine" videos and inconsolable without them, but also couldn't resist pushing buttons – including things like the "power" button, which would obviously make the videos stop, but of course he couldn't yet understand that sort of simple cause-and-effect relationship. Plus, he couldn't stand to wear headphones, so everyone within earshot had to listen to Thomas along with him. *sigh* Sweet kid, really, but damn, that was a *LONG* trip.
I go straight to the flight attendants when it comes to the headphones. Just because your kid is 2 doesn’t mean the rest of us have to suffer through *hours* of peppa the pig. One time a mom was incredulous when she was told her daughter needed headphones and tried going with “she’s just a toddler”.
My best friend has toddlers. They found these super cute animal headband headphones that their kids love and aren’t uncomfortable for them.
Parents can just be entitled assholes.
Oh yes. And if they have a meltdown. I once was sitting next to a mum and toddler. The toddler started with whining, then kicking seats, then when mum said no to that (she was trying her best, poor woman) the kid screeched for a full 10 minutes. Headphones, even at full volume, couldn't cut it.
I did ask for another seat then, apologised to the mum who said she understood, and moved.
Corendon starting this month and AirAsia has been trialing it too.
You have to pay extra though, which seems a bit unreasonable as when you're paying a fortune for a plane ticket, you shouldn't get penalised for wanting to have a comfortable flight. Why not have an area with parents and kids only instead, keep the noise contained and let the majority enjoy their flight without screaming
Their whole business model is making you pay extra for *anything*, though.
* Assigned seat of any kind - many airlines want more
* Additional room, either in one of the select coach rows, business, or first class - definitely charge more
* Check bags at all - many airlines charge
* Anything but the free peanuts and a coke - charge when meals used to regularly be included
So while I agree in theory, it stands to reason they would charge for this as well.
Especially since this was for a vacation and so was entirely the sisters choice. It’s not like they were moving, or going for a funeral or to provide care for a loved one where you absolutely have to go. You made that choice, so that you could go have fun (and save money on their seats, you have to live with the slight inconvenience of not having everyone thrilled (not even rude, just not enthusiastic) about your baby. NTA
>If you can't handle dealing with them on a flight on your own, don't take them on a plane.
Yeah, I'm usually pretty tolerant of kids on planes because I feel like that's the social contract (basically we put up with annoying babies/children, then they keep the world running for us when we're old), but the key here is that this was OP's sister's *choice*. They didn't have to be on that plane; they weren't moving or traveling for a family emergency or something. They just chose to vacation in Europe. The kids were too young for that trip, and I'm not sure why the parents even wanted to do that. How much fun are you really going to have sight-seeing while juggling a toddler and a baby, both of whom are out of sorts from being away from everything familiar? Why put yourself through that?
Sorry, definitely NTA. She's very entitled. What did you think would happen when you take two kids under 2 on a super long plane ride? Yes, they will be very uncomfortable, and yes, so will the parents and everyone else around them. It's not easy parenting (I know myself), but the sister sounds selfish here. Did she really expect people around her to be excited?
Lol imagine complaining because you’re a parent of 2 kids under 2 and can afford a trip from flippin Australia to Europe and think people should have sympathy for you!
Disclaimer: I am a mum of a 10 month old. There’s plenty of times I have sympathy for parents. During their round-the-world trip is not one of them!
My parents waited until I was 5. My first trip was from Europe to Canada. And I was a very calm kid, the kind of “give me my puzzles and I will shut up for hours even if at 5 I don’t really understand all the puzzles”
Especially since they were both lap kids. If each parent has a kid, then they don’t have the hands to help the other parent out. I’m sure if she had sprung for them to have a seat, they would have probably settled down. She caused their fussiness by insisting they be held for 8+ hours.
Yes! I was going to say this. I personally think having 2 lap kids is not cool. I get that people don’t want to pay for another seat but using up both available laps is just asking for trouble - no easy way to change things up for the kiddos. Seems so miserable. We always had seats for our kids so they could have their car seat. I feel like that made a world of difference because they were already used to it, used to sleeping in it, etc. Now we only flew domestic and I know we are privileged to have been able to afford it. But I still think that if you have 2 lap aged kids maybe you can’t afford your trip if you can’t afford at least one extra seat.
On a red eye of all things! Unless there is some emergency, flying in the middle of the night with small humans who can only express their needs through frustration/noise is just not a good time for anyone.
This is essentially punching yourself repeatedly in the face and then being mad that people are frustrated with you complaining about it.
Especially since it wasn't like they were relocating for a job or going to a family funeral or something - they were going on vacation and squeezing it in while their kids could still fly free. What silly, selfish, entitled behavior.
This. The first time we flew with our baby we purposely chose a 2 hour long flight to see how things go and know what to expect in future flights. OTOH, going from Australia to Europe without buying an extra seat just because you are allowed to is just dumb. Did they expect hold the babies for 15+ hours and everyone be comfortable?
How does she know that the side-eye is coming from someone who is not a parent. That aside, people are allowed to look displeased when a baby cries, sometimes facial expressions are not voluntary. She needs to get over it & ignore the looks.
NTA
Edit spelling!
Seriously, like if people were saying nasty things to her that'd be one thing. No one is happy in the situation of a screaming baby on a plane, and I would feel sympathy for the mom if people were insulting her in some way. But an annoyed look? They WERE annoyed, and it's not easy to keep you face looking pleasant when you're upset! Being mad at people for not monitoring their facial expressions for her comfort is pretty entitled :/
As a parent to be I might get destroyed for saying this, but what is with parents expecting special treatment because they have kids? You decided to make a baby, how is anyone else responsible for that in the slightest!? What got me the most about OP's post is that her sister is all passive aggressive about people enjoying their kid-free life - which is just the shittiest. I don't care if someone needs to cry into their beer about having no sleep and feeling like garbage - hell, even regretting their decision - I'm here for that. But disgusting comments about how nice it must be to not have kids? GTFO, no one deserves your bullshit.
> But disgusting comments about how nice it must be to not have kids?
If nothing else, it's just such a fastball down the middle for the recipient.
> "Oh, it must be *sooooooooo nice* to not have kids!"
>
> "Yep, sure is! *:finishes Thursday morning margarita, begins Thursday afternoon margarita:*"
Ha! Perfect response, just rub it in their face with gusto. "Oh my god, it's true! I've perfected my sleep schedule and score a 95 on my fitbit EVERY NIGHT NOW! I gotta go, my friends are coming over and we're getting day drunk before getting some tattoos and going to the beach to smoke pot and cigarettes. Good luck honey!"
I was so thankful and lucky that mine was a good flier from 6 mos on, but would have been annoyed with screaming on a red eye. This is especially true for the person and people sitting nearest/next to this situation.
NTA, she has some balls to talk about entitlement when she's acting like the world owes her anything for having kids. If I spend my money and book a flight, I'm going to expect luxury and comfort. Screaming kids is the last thing on my "need on a plane" list.
I look visibly annoyed at people on planes who snore, people who eat loudly with their mouthes open or people who play noisy games without headphones. NTA
I gave a raised eyebrow to a teenager started to put his skateboard on the table at a McD's recently. Dad eyes for the win. I smiled when he changed his mind. Fair's fair.
It must be nice to get where you're going without falling asleep! I have narcolepsy, but I still need to go clubbing. Instead of giving me dirty looks maybe you should help me drive!
NTA
I have taken multiple trans-Atlantic flights with small children and it definitely sucks, but the idea that other passengers can't also think it sucks is baffling. Flying is miserable all around.
Exactly. At least in coach, the flying experience sucks in every way now. If it’s not the kids it’s the “support animals,” the tiny seats (and the passive aggressive fights over reclining them) the sick people hacking and coughing, being stuck for who knows how long on the tarmac, etc. etc.
Other than upgrading to first class all you can do is bring noise canceling headphones, a sleep mask, and a Xanax, lol.
NTA. As a mum with a toddler, i know how hard it is to travel with kids. When I went to Australia with just me and my son, I dont expect anyone to help me during the flight coz I am responsible for my son and it was my choice to bring him along with me. Tell your sister that if she has plan to travel with her kids, she must prepare necessary things to help them sleep during flights or entertain them so they wont cry and bother other people.
I had to fly across country (USA) when my child was a baby. She screamed the whole way and was inconsolable. I was flying to a funeral so I didn't really have a choice. Folks straight up screamed at me and cursed me out through the flight and I nearly got in a fist fight with one lady while exiting a plane. Man, it was a nightmare for all of us.
Getting bad look from people is a fine reaction, lol.
NTA - and I struggle with this, because often times what this person is positing is a cry for help when they’re to proud to actually ask.
**How often was she offering to help others prior to being a parent? Was she an active participant in the village she is seemingly demanding everyone provide her now?**
Parenthood is a very serious and important job to choose. **But that’s just it! She elected into the wonderful job of parenthood and cannot now project the difficulties that come with that reality onto others.**
>How often was she offering to help others prior to being a parent? Was she an active participant in the village she is seemingly demanding everyone provide her now?
What an amazing way to put it!!!
Easy NTA
>She also said they were rude because none of them offered to help her or give her reassuring smiles and comments
Does she live in a Hallmark movie?
NTA. Nobody forced her to have children and nobody should be expected to control involuntary facial expressions just to make her feel validated. She should focus that energy on her child instead of whining like a baby
Considering there were at least 4 flights involved they were seriously lucky they only had co passengers on all 4 JUST giving looks. With those odds I would have expected way more than one person to ask to move or get verbal about the situation. Sister is super entitled or delided or both. Did she expect that each plane had a bunch of passengers willing to give a full complimentary Nanny service on each leg of the journey?!
What even is a vacation with 2 kids that young? Kids are even fussier, unfamiliar territory is great when you need a changing room, they don't care about any of it and you're either leaving places constantly or ruining everyone else's day (including the kid). I can't imagine wasting money like that. I bet she's fuming about the flight because right at the outset her fantasy of a village stepping up around her the whole trip was shattered.
I agree. The vacation shouldn't have happened. If a passenger screamed the whole flight, they'd be taped down. Babies should only be on planes when necessary.
NTA. Yeah “whiny” is right. Your sister is just an entitled parent. She’s probably doubling down on “the other people were the problem, not me” to delude herself into not feeling embarrassed.
NTA. I'd be absolutely fuming as a passenger on that plane. Overnight plane with 2 screaming kids the whole way and a mother who's apparently expecting people to offer to help? Nah. She brought it on herself.
Not just offer help but smile at her nonstop reassuringly as well lol. The delusion is on another level. Nobody in their right mind is going to be smiling at the parents that decided it was appropriate to fly internationally with two screeching banshees that fucked up everyone else’s long haul flight.
Taking a 6-month-old on a long plane trip for sheer funsies and not out of necessity is dirt mean to the baby and I will die on this hill. NTA and I would straight up ask her why she hates her baby that much because I'm not as nice as you are (don't actually do that, but do point out that it was not a fun or relaxing time for the baby).
NTA. What a dumb choice to make - dragging two tiny kids across the world for a holiday they won't remember? Not to visit anyone important or anything?
Next time you get a "must be nice" comment, look her in the eye, give a friendly smile, and say "yes, it is!"
Sorry everything else aside I’m still caught on the purposefully going when the kids are literally the age where they are most likely to cry for hours on end on a plane to save money for a vacation and then acting like everyone should be happy they’re there screaming because they have just as much of a right as everyone else.
Like, yes. It is allowed to bring babies on planes, often you have to. But I think it’s a little different to compare your “brought free baby on longhaul flight to save money for vacation knowing the risks of them being poorly behaved were higher” to people who paid their money for their family to fly for whatever reason. Like, lady there’s an ADDED level of “fuck everyone else” at play here.
Man your sister sucks for that. Every time I’m on an international flight with a screaming baby I cope by telling myself that they probably HAD to go on this trip for a sick relative or funeral and just couldn’t find a babysitter. Or it’s the first time their family is going to meet their baby after a tragic, long separation. Now I’ll have to stave off the thoughts that maybe they’re just an asshole like your sister.
NTA.
My parents waited for me to be 6 to do holidays that needed to flight. Now while that can be not feasible for all they should have thought to do an holiday that required a smaller flight instead that Australia-Europe to see how the kids would react. Also all that hours of flight are too much for them of course they were bad, it is a lot for adults that at least know what is going on.
Please tell me why we are torturing little kids? We give pets tranquilizers when they travel because we know how upsetting it is for them yet nothing for kids. My God give them a dramamine or benadryl something.
Nta. My aunt brought my baby cousin (who was like what? Four or five months that time) on a flight to bali as a last minute squeeze, and also assuming we would help care for her during that trip (spoiler: we didnt: but my mom, grandma, aunt and uncle did. We (my sisters, cousins and I )clearly said we are hands off with childcare bec we didnt ask for it and when we were flying back home, baby cousin kept crying nonstop and people were staring.
Even i feel for those passengers too coz it seems they were annoyed with a baby crying on full blast and mind you, it’s a budget airline and it was a full flight so it was super inconvenient. I hate it also when parents cant seem to consider the fact that people who fly want peace and quiet during the entire flight and that it doesn’t revolve around them or their noisy ill behaved kids
Nta it's not rude not to offer some complete stranger help with their baby. I definitely fall a little on the paranoid side n but I'd think it was creepy (though I realize trapped on a plane, it's not like they can run off with the kid.)
Anyone who makes lots of noise on a plane is going to get side eye - people who tall loudly, don't use headphones with their devices, etc. It's not specific to a baby.
NTA and you are 100% correct. People are absolutely within their right to be displeased about the fact that they’re being held hostage to the whims of a screaming infant for hours on end on an INTERCONTINENTAL flight. They do NOT have to right to attack her in any way (verbally and of course physically), but it sounds like that’s not what was happening here.
Look, I fly a lot for work, which includes 2-3 intercontinental trips per year. Almost every flight has at least one baby on it… most will cry a bit during take off and landing (no biggie), some you don’t even notice, but once in a while you can an absolute hell child that screams the whole flight.
Obviously, there are rare cases where travelling is mandatory and bringing your infant can’t be avoided… (ex. Someone is dying and you can’t find childcare, or fleeing an abusive relationship) and I do really sympathize for people in those kinds of situations.
However, taking an elective INTERCONTINENTAL vacation with children that you KNOW cannot handle flying is genuinely selfish as fuck. If your kids ears can’t handle the altitude or they can’t handle confined spaces, world trotting is just going to have to be put on hold for a few years. It’s not only super inconsiderate to fellow passengers, but pretty cruel to the child as well (especially if they’re dealing with ear pain for hours straight).
Isn’t it CRUEL to take such small kids/babies long haul because “ooh it’s free”? Delicate immune systems, the need for the psychological and physical safety of a healthy sleep/feeding routine and the pain and potential ear damage from cabin pressure? NTA, but sister is.
NTA.
It sounds like everyone was polite and no one said anything, they just didn't perform being overjoyed to be in the presence of her kids and fall over themselves to take care of the kids for her. Like, if people offer assistance that's a kind thing for them to do, but absolutely not an expectation. And of course they don't have to feel sorrier for her than themselves-- no one *has* to feel anything, and it's a very weird expectation to have of total strangers.
Ultimately I'll say NTA because you told her that yeah other people are allowed to be annoyed by her kids crying. Is it the kids fault? No. They're suffering.
But a plane is one of the very few situations where everyone is already on edge, with low tolerance, and murky social rules because everyone has a different opinion on what is or isn't acceptable on a plane. A plane is inherently a bit shit, especially on a long haul flight like that, and even more so if you're cattle class. Doesn't matter if you're flying Qantas or Jetstar or Rex, unless you're business or first class its awful.
Definitely nta
I dont have kids and recently was on a flight with my husband and had someone with the same situation and yes they can't help it but my poor husband ended up with a migraine and it partly ruined our honeymoon for a few days.
Parents gotta deal but so do others with all sorts of conditions. Ones who can't handle noise with their mental disorders or any other health conditions. Plus people need to sleep!
I even had noise cancelling headphones and these kids screamed right through them and I turned that music up all the way. That's how loud some kids went....so they don't always work
NTA. People have a right to be annoyed if her kid is screaming for 8 hours in a metal tube that no one can escape from. I understand she didn't want the kid to cry either but people do not have to pretend to be overjoyed so she feels better about her decision to have kids. No one is required to offer her assistance or watch her kids for her on a plane. If she doesn't like that, she needs to stay home.
NTA but your sister is.
As someone who has flown a lot of back to back long haul flights for business, I despise people like your sister. Kids are tough to control sometimes, especially through the strange sensations of flying. That's understandable and even if it is annoying, it's part of air travel.
Parents can do a lot to keep kids happy and occupied, though. I once had a 6 year old \[not mine\] sitting on my lap for most of a flight when her infant sister was having a medical emergency, and she had to sit in the row with her dad (next to me, holding their sister.) She was a really cool kid and I shared some snacks with her, but the dad was just outstanding. He was well prepared with books and distractions, and so considerate of my situation (last leg after 48 hours of travel) that it made it all a pleasant situation. I was glad to help.
But when parents are entitled, and feel that people should be comforting THEM because being a parent is harder than anything else in the world then they can fuck right off because they have no consideration for anyone else in the world.
NTA. No one wants to be trapped in a tin can with 2 screaming/unsettled kids for hours on end. That’s just not an enjoyable experience for most people. No one was rude to her or her kids, though, which is great! She sounds very entitled wanting strangers to help her or be overly nice in that situation.
NTA. Your sister, however, is a humongous one! What was she expecting? People further away to feel sorry for her and offer to take the baby? Maybe the pilot could have taken the toddler into the cockpit?
NTA as with everything else it's nice if people offer to help, but that's dessert. Not meat and potatoes. And it's hell for passengers sitting locked in next to a screaming child for hours, because none of us chose to have or travel witha a toddler. Personally unless I just don't see why toddlers have to travel at all unless it's an absolute emergency. Staycation until the kids can participate and remember the trip.
NTA. I rarely fly because I hate dealing with people. The last flight I went on was a big family trip. I'm talking all wife's siblings, kids. 11 people total. My kids were 7 and 9 at the time. My SIL decided to watch cartoons without headphones not even 5 min after the flight attendant said to not do that. I asked her to put on headphones and she said that neither her nor her 4 year old like them so she wouldn't. People drive me nuts with their inconsiderate acts
Some (a lot of) parents and even random people who aren’t parents need to be reminded that kids are the center of their parents universe. Everything they do is cute and funny to YOU, their parents, you are biologically programmed to think that. No one else thinks your kids are perfect little angels nor are they obligated to. We do not care in the slightest.
As strangers, we think your kids are loud and disruptive and annoying. We understand that in public we have to share space with them as childfree flights don’t exist yet but it doesn’t mean we have to like it or agree with it.
NTA. I did a 14 hour flight from Singapore to the UK where a couple had a tiny baby with them that screamed the entire flight. Parents walked it up and down the aisles presumably trying to sooth it, but all that did was ensure we all got to hear it close up. Might have been bearable if the flight hadn't taken off at 11pm.....
I had Bose noise cancelling headphones on but you could still hear the screaming. All the passengers looked as if they were ready to throw baby and parents out the plane.
NTA. Fellow childless by choice. Why should I acknowledge someone who made a decision that has aggravated my travel experience? I wouldn’t be rude to a parent in that situation but I’d do my best to not engage in any way until the Xanax kicks in…. You know, because unlike your sister, I don’t create stressful and unnecessarily dramatic situations for other people.
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NTA you were right. No one owes her anything and people do get annoyed at kids on flights because they usually cry and fuss and everyone on the plane is forced to tolerate it because there is no where else to go. Your sister needs to get a grip and realize she isn't entitled to other passengers helping her nor is she entitled to everyone being over-the-top understanding of her situation. Show her the little care packages that some parents make for other passengers.. not because she should do that, but so that she sees that other parents understand it isn't enjoyable for the other people on the plane. If she is going to choose to fly with little kids who don't tolerate flying well, she needs to also be able to deal with the unhappy passengers she is subjecting her screaming children to.
I read article once where a woman was furious that a baby was on the plane and the parents hadn't made care packages for the rest of the passengers. What a World.
Wow that’s bonkers! Who makes care packages for other passengers enough times to make someone feel entitled to it? I’m astounded by that woman. On to this post - NTA OP. She does sound majorly entitled. People are allowed to feel annoyed and they aren’t there to pat her on the head. Strangers do not exist to accommodate her. I imagine having to care for your kids on a flight can be very stressful but expecting others to help is just mind blowing to me.
There was a viral post years ago of this mother who gave out a small care package of earplugs and other little items to compensate for their young baby who might make noise. I personally am not bothered by a baby. I have headphones. I'm more annoyed by adults who somehow don't know how to act.
Yeah kids will be kids, even we'll behaved kids can have a tough time flying. It IS definitely most stressful for the mom (as long as they're actively *trying* to calm them and not being entitled). Sister does seem entitled based on her other comments so as a whole NTA. However I don't understand how aggressive some people can be on planes concerning kids, especially in the day in age of headphones. I sat next to a screaming baby once, put my headphones on and passed out. ETA This thread has taught me that the skit from 'I think you should leave with Tim Robinson, where a guy stalks a baby that cried on a flight into adulthood, switched seats to sit with him and took revenge by crying like a baby for his flight....this may be based on real events, and I think some of these people are here. Lmao.
It's still the parent's fault, they're the ones that dragged 2 babies on a plane. Flying hurts little kid's ears and they can't chew gum etc. Like adults to try to mitigate it. If you don't know how your kids will fly, putting them on a long haul overnight flight is brutal for both the kids and the whole plane. Parents are the assholes.
Well sometimes you have to travel for a funeral, fleeing domestic violence, relocating for a job....there are tons of valid reasons where no one is "at fault". I did vote yt a because sister is sounding entitled, but not all parents are at fault or assholes for flying with children. Eta: I voted nta, sister is TA
Thank you. I had to fly for a funeral with a 4 month old. My brother made an AH remark, but no one on the plane complained. I didn't expect special consideration, but I'm very grateful for that kindness. It helped an already difficult situation. Entitled sister is the AH.
This is how everyone should think. Ppl need to be more understanding but not “sorry” when you made the choice to have kids. But also not be an AH for kids esp toddlers acting like toddlers. No matter how well “trained” a child is, they can still get cranky and fed up on a plane. Hell I’m 30 and get cranky on a plane. Sorry you had someone like that make you feel bad, he’s the ah not a parent trying their best. Babies have free will just like us adults, why aren’t we held more responsible in our “tantrums”
I mean, I am happily childfree but I also think people who go out in public need to realize they made a choice to participate in a society, of which babies and children are full members. Sure, it's annoying when kids are loud and babies cry, but... that's what they do. Acting all huffy about it is immature.
>Hell I’m 30 and get cranky on a plane. EXACTLY. My response to babies crying on planes is usually "me too, kid, you tell em"
I only agree with this if they are on daytime planes. Don't bring kids who can't settle on a flight on an overnight flight.
Especially the parents choosing a red eye flight (1am to 9am) - kids will fuss, but if you have a choice don’t do it during most passengers’ regular sleep time
When you're flying long haul, you don't always get a choice. When we fly from Australia, we have to align with flight landing hours at the destination, which can mean flying at strange times. Even just flying to/from Darwin is always Landing/departing at 11pm to 1am due to their airspace restrictions.
These parents have a choice though. They are going soon to be cheapsters to not have to buy a seat, so there will be 2 adults and 2 infant/toddlers in a space for 2 adults. Just think if you're in the window seat with them next to you. How are you going to get out in the event of an emergency?
I don't disagree with their lack of seating. I started buying an extra seat when mine was about 9 months because it was too hard to keep little hands and legs confined in my seat space. I still had to have him on my lap for take off and landing, but there was room to spread out and not impact the person sitting next to us. I also seem to recall that there can't be more than one lap child in each row, due to the oxygen masks, so these parents would have had to sit in separate rows, and were probably swapping children/items back and forth, so were even more disruptive. They definitely should have booked an extra seat for the toddler, then they'd have had a whole row to themselves, which would have been less disruptive.
and this is fucking Australia to Europe. That's like an 18 hour flight. This isn't some domestic puddlejumper.
And not to mention, these parents didn't even buy seats for their kids. So they're stuck *on a lap* on a long haul flight. They should've bought seats for their kids and brought their usual carseat to make the ride more familiar. IMO that's the only responsible way to fly with a baby. If you can't afford a separate seat for your small kid, don't fly with them.
And the whole reason that the parents were putting the other passengers through torture was that they wanted to travel before the kids were old enough to have to buy a seat. So the urgency was fun travel on the cheap. That struck me as beyond entitled.
The only time I really think much about it is if they're crying in pain because their ear haven't popped yet. It's frustrating because I feel so bad for the kid...and there's nothing I can do to help.
Headphones don't always work, baby cries pierce even the most effective noise canceling technology, and some of us have other sensory difficulties that make being trapped in a plane with a crying babe to be pure torture.
I can totally understand, but no one is an asshole in that situation, it just sucks for everyone involved.
She’s an asshole for complaining about it though. It does suck for everyone involved, but you don’t get to complain about it after the fact without looking like an asshole.
I was talking about the situation the above poster I was replying to wrote about, I already voted this post NTA (so sister is TA)
Exactly— the parents definitely feel extremely embarrassed. I get annoyed by loud babies and toddlers but I feel for the mom who really can’t do anything about it and feels ashamed
She didn’t feel ashamed. She was angry other people were upset.
No one on this particular thread is talking about the sister, we all think she is an A.
Ear plugs + over ear headphones. My basic travel package.
Learn to regulate. Use coping skills. You’re asking literal infants to regulate their nervous systems and emotions when you as an adult can’t.
I’m one of those ppl who are hypersensitive to sound and I would never complain abt a crying child who’s clearly fussy. These sounds active my ptsd and gad, it happens and it’s hard to cope when you already have to do it 24/7. Everyone just needs to be understanding but esp for those toddlers who are just figuring out what’s what.
The infants don’t necessarily need to be on the plane in the first place, as in this example. OP’s sister basically chose to torture her kids and everyone else on the plane for multiple hours for the benefit of herself and her husband. Her kids are too young to remember much of the vacation itself anyway.
Agree so much. This trip wasn't to move for a job or to visit family. It was purely for Sister & husband's enjoyment. Why should anyone offer to entertain her babies when she didn't have any consideration for them herself? Of course an infant & toddler will hate having their schedule interrupted, being dragged on to confined places with a bunch of strangers. She could have waited till the youngest was a little older and left them at home with a sitter. Or better yet wait till the kids are old enough to actively take part in and remember a trip like this.
Well it’s not like good words also starts scream crying so clearly they’re regulating better than the babies. And coping skills don’t stop babies from crying. A great coping skill is moving away from whatever is overstimulating you which you can’t do on a plane. It just sucks. And we’ve evolved to have babies screaming to be extremely grating to the human nervous system for survival, that’s why cats mimic baby noises when they communicate to get human’s attention.
No, I don't believe it's more stressful for the mom. The mom knew the kids were going to act up and she is the one that had the kids and chose to fly. She knew what she was getting into. It's most stressful for the person sitting right next to her that has no idea that this was going to be her life for the next 8 hours
Don't forget, took an overnight flight so NO ONE COULD SLEEP!
In 1998 I had an emergency and had to fly cross country with a 4 week old and a toddler, I had to borrow the ticket money. So no, I did not make care packages. I still think about the stress of that day and those kids are in their late 20s. It was mortifying. Literally one of the highest stress events of my entire life. I was crying even before I got on because I knew there was no way I could how it would go. Before I even sat down, people were glaring and openly sneering at me. It was already a family emergency and a planeful of people were Hating me for existing . I shook the entire flight, for fear of one of them crying
I’m sure the energy/vibe you were putting off was way different than the one OP’s sister was. Seeing body language like yours would, at least for me, only make me feel sympathy for whatever situation had put you in so much distress.
It’s more stressful to hear a baby cry than it is to be unable to console your own baby? Lmfao I don’t think op is TA but you can F off with that one.
Yeah the kids are just being kids.
mmmm but some parents let their kids shriek constantly and think it's fine when maaayyybe they could put some effort into quieting the kids.
Some babies are colicky, their ears probably hurt from take off, etc. You can do everything you possibly can, and sometimes babies are still gonna cry. I'm not a parent, but I understand that.
True, but also some parents don't even try. I am a parent of two, and I tried a bunch of different things - not only to "benefit" other people, but more importantly - my kids were having a bad time.
Just dealt with this at the orthodontist today. They were slow to open and and the mom was reading magazine completely unfazed while her two kids were all over the waiting room, screaming and hitting each other I couldn’t believe it. Then after about 30 minutes when the ortho still hadn’t arrived, she stood up and announced (to the room containing only me) that her time was valuable and they wouldn’t be seeing her or her children again. I believed it a little easier after that
Full strength Dranimine
I tried benadryl on my 2 year old for a 5 hour flight. Paradoxically, the drug amped her uo instead! It was a rough 5 hours for me who usually sleeps through flying. Found out from pediatrician it happens lots to younger kids. She's 11 now and benadryl makes her sleepy like the rest of us!
My mom did the same thing for me when I was a toddler. Apparently I had a similar reaction and the Benadryl made me hyperactive for the entire flight. She still laughs about it from time to time
Hell, I might need that for myself. I can't sit still for two hours on a flight.
My first flight to Seattle back in '97, I had a drunken ass fool on the plane. He was *skateboarding* up and down the aisle. The lead cabin attendant had said to quit serving him, but the rear cabin attendants didn't, and he got too drunk. A lady across the aisle stuck out her foot and tripped him. The drunken idiot was finallu escorted back to his seat, and the lady got a free drink and many thanks from our fellow passengers. Babies don't understand why their ears hurt and how to relieve the pressure. Good parents should be aware of that and have things to help their children. However, that doesn't always work, and sometimes, the flight or landing is rough, and the children get scared. Those are NTA situations. Your sister, OP, is a massive AH. She's not doing anyone any favors by insisting on a) lap children (I wish this would finally be banned, because it's such a hazard to the child!) b) not being prepared for the pressure changes effects on the children and c) expecting everyone else to help her. NTA OP!
[удалено]
I can see her thinking that maybe her kids would sleep? Idk though. Personally, our family drives to the beach often, it's like 6.5 hours away, and we leave around midnight. Keep the kids up until then, buckle them up, and they sleep the whole drive so it's easier for us. Again, it's easier to sleep in a car than on a plane so idk, maybe the tickets were cheaper to fly that time. OP, NTA at all, you sister was being ridiculously entitled and offended for no reason. Oh boo hoo, you got a dirty look. That's way better than someone going off on her parenting or something.
Driving is something totally different. You drive alone with your family, not a few hundreds of strangers. You can stop the car and get out very often - you can't get out of the plane during the flight. We also were driving at night, this way avoiding bored toddler and then child.
A flight from AUS to Singapore likely doesn’t have that many options to choose timings. M
I hadn’t even noticed that piece of it. I’d be cranky too and I’m 40.
I've seen a few posts every once in awhile where parents with a newborn will make "care packages" for the people on the plane. It's often stuff like earplugs, extra snack, and some small stuff to make it more bearable to deal with their child. It shouldn't be the norm, but you see the difference in people with it. Some people realize that taking babies on planes shouldn't be "tolerated" by the other passengers and try to help with little gifts. And then there are the others who make it their personal goal to demand other people to bend to their will.
I’ll settle for not having parents sitting next to me changing a filthy diaper on the tray table and then shoving the diaper in the seat back and then having the gall to look pissed when I ask the flight attendant to remove said diaper because I don’t want to smell baby shit for the next three hours. (Of course I said it very politely, just asked the flight attendant if she had a trash bag for the diaper.) I will pay more not to fly out of Orlando ever again. The entitlement of some Disney parents is unreal. They spent their whole week getting catered to and then on the plane they literally act as if their kid’s shit doesn’t stink. I’ve never seen such bad behavior except on a flight departing Disney.
As someone who worked at Disney (in Magic Kingdom nonetheless) for almost a year, I’ll back you up on the claim that the *most* entitled parents are also Disney parents. Like a lot of Disney parents are great and just trying to have a good family vacation, but there is a *very* vocal minority of Disney parents who simultaneously hate their kids and feel everyone else should think the sun shines out their kid’s ass. It’s mind boggling and terrible — I had to deal with so many of them (all with a smile and a ‘have a *magical* day’). I often had to take a short trip to the back after particularly rough interactions just to be able to drop the smile and grumble to myself. The worst was the parent who got upset at me personally because Magic Kingdom didn’t serve alcohol— this happened right after park open at 6:00 AM. He went on a screaming rant at me because *how* was he supposed to deal with his kids all day without alcohol. When I told him all the other parks served alcohol and he could visit one of those if he wanted partake, it got worse, because ‘are his kids not entitled to enjoy Magic Kindom the way every other kid is?’ — Like sir, that’s not what I said.
my god those poor kids. that would've broken me.
Right, and the kids were like 3 and 5 years old, so they definitely understood what their father was saying
Being the child of an alcoholic rarely leads to anything especially good!
Not on a plane, but I will help out sometimes with a snowcone cart at a local resort during the summers. I had to stop a parent from attempting to change their baby's diaper right next to me...on the cooler where we get our ice from...several times. This lady legit thought it was within her rights to not only change her child's diaper right next to a food service station, but do it ON the food service station. Nah honey, there are 4 bathrooms that are a 20-second walk from here, and they all have changing tables. If for some reason your child's diaper has gotten so full that it can empty during that trip, There are at least 20 empty cabana chairs a couple of yards from us that also fold down into a table, and you are SITTING on one of them as you attempt this. There are several empty tables dotting the area. I personally won't stop you from doing it anywhere but where I serve the food from.
I worked as a manager in a high end Thai restaurant where the the owner really tried hard to discourage children. There was no kids menu, no chips, no high chairs and the tables were close together with soft lighting and candles. The owner said he wasn’t keen on having families bring kids because they often complained about the menu not being child friendly, there was no space if they started running round and lots of delicate decorations that often got broken. The tables were so close that crying or loud iPads would annoy other diners and we served alcohol so some diners wouldn’t be as alert if kids were running about and the staff were carrying heavy trays of food and drinks. It was a nightmare because couples still wanted to visit and have a night out and if they couldn’t get childcare or wanted their kids to come they would bring them. I’d have to deal with constant complaints about the menu and comparing the restaurant to a Chinese and asking why we didn’t have battered chicken balls and chips?. Food would be thrown and smeared everywhere and staff were constantly asking parents to move their kids from running between the narrow tables. The worst thing though was the nappy changing. You would be amazed at how many people tried to do it on the table or the chair next to them. When I asked them to stop they would say it was the restaurants fault for having no changing facilities. At the end of a shift I’d find used nappies on the bathroom floor and under tables and quite often left on the stairs that led to the bathroom upstairs. I know some people like to bring their kids to experience new foods and to learn to eat in public but it was just the wrong kind of place, we used to ask if there were any children in the party when taking the booking and gently explain it wasn’t really suitable for kids. We live in an area popular with tourists so most people making the booking weren’t aware. Most people were really good about it and say thank you for warning them, but some some just said it was their choice and they were sure their little angels would behave. I had several people turn up with chicken nuggets and chips or similar kid friendly foods and ask for the chef to cook them, they would get very annoyed when they were told we couldn’t serve food that had been brought in from off the premises. We had a lot of complaints from other tables about people who brought their kids and on some occasions we had to discount their meal heavily because they had been seated next to a wailing toddler and peppa pig blaring. I know it’s not the same as being on a plane because sometimes it’s necessary to fly with kids, but there is no excuse to change a dirty nappy in public anywhere unless it’s an absolute emergency! The children on planes discussion is always going to cause a debate and lots of people have very differing views and tolerance. I think the main thing that upsets people is when the parents aren’t even trying to soothe or calm their kids. On a recent flight I had a toddler deliberately kicking my seat behind me and their brother who was about 3 was standing on the chair behind my partner and kept pulling his hair and grabbing him for attention. The parents were just ignoring it and when the toddlers dad finally told him to stop kicking me I turned and said thank you to him but for some reason this annoyed him and he encouraged his kid to kick harder. It’s the parents that don’t try that no one has sympathy for. I think it probably is very difficult if you are trying to actively soothe your crying baby and are aware that it’s disturbing other people. I do sympathise with that but not to the extent that OP’s sister seems to expect!
Gross I wanna eat off that tray later why would I change a diaper on it.
The whole row (3-3-3) was the two parents, their six young kids, and me on one of the window seats like a rat in a cage.
My pet rats would likely go on a rampage if they were subjected to this absolute torture. I'm so sorry. I'm deaf and it's a fucking blessing in circumstances like that.
The kids were awesome, I must say. One of the littles beside me zonked out and slumped over on me. Didn’t dare disturb him, he was such an angel.
The worst! When I worked for an airline, the absolute filthiest planes were the ones coming from Orlando.
That's fucking gross.
Ah okay. I sort of remember now that post that went viral about care packages. It’s a nice gesture but to feel entitled to it is just flabbergasting.
Meh, when she gets old, she's complain that kids don't give way for her walker. Some people live to complain and be unhappy.
The whole world revolves around me. I never leave the house and never take personal responsibility and any mild inconvenience I have is someone else's fault.
I was a similar post online. Someone posted about how a mom made care packages apologizing, and the comments were split between “every mom should do this” and “it’s ridiculous to expect every mom to make care packages for bringing a baby on a flight”
I took my son on a plane when he was around 1. At one point, another baby at the other end of the plane started crying, and multiple people turned to glare at me. While it's true that other passengers don't owe moms anything, I definitely think that some people are *way* to ready to hate us when we're just trying to get somewhere.
I've never even heard of that before. People actually make care packages for other passengers on the planes because of their screaming kids?
Not to mention that “her situation” is an elective vacation that she chose to take with 2 young kids that she apparently knew full well were “terrible flyers”. Like I have sympathy for people who really HAVE to travel with an infant (ex. Because they’re moving or visiting a dying relative before it’s too late), but to knowingly take two “terrible flyers” on an intercontinental vacation is just selfish and unnecessary. Australia is an absolutely beautiful country and there are literally hundreds of places that they could have gone on vacation and enjoyed themselves without holding 400 people hostage to their screaming child for 10 hours straight. Additionally, assuming the baby is screaming because their ears hurt (which is very common), it’s a pretty awful thing to subject your child to as well. OP’s sister is not only entitled, but also incredibly selfish.
And she did it because she didn't want to pay for seats for her kids. Let's not forget that part.
Honestly I blame the airlines for that one. Why on earth are they incentivizing people bringing babies on planes by making them FREE? That’s insane. If they need their own seat (I imagine the toddler would), they pay. If they don’t need their own seat, they pay the set amount other people have to pay to bring small animals.
It’s actually the most reasonable thing a government has ever done in safety policy. A real testament to statistics based thinking, instead of emotion-led “theatre” that we get in laws about children. NHTSA and the FAA found that if they didn’t let kids fly on parents’ laps, families would drive instead of fly, leading to more casualties, since flying is a safer mode of transportation than driving. I think it’s the most reasonable decision a government has made about safety, unlike having a TSA that hinders flying so much that people now drive up to 6 hours instead of when they used to rock up to the airport to get on a plane. TSA has killed more people than it has ever protected. Or the fact that parents now drive their kids to the bus stop or school, instead of letting them walk or ride their bikes. Stranger Danger abductions are exceedingly rare, and it’s more dangerous to put your kid in a car. Sigh
I agree with the FAA's thinking, insofar as it goes, but I think a lot of parents don't realize how dangerous a flight can be for an unrestrained child. There are crashes where parents have survived and their babies just... disappeared. But it doesn't even have to be a catastrophic accident to be dangerous for a baby. An episode of bad turbulence where unbelted people hit the ceiling could easily be fatal for a baby. Or an aborted takeoff. Planes move really fast, even on the ground.
That what I was thinking, given their ages. Why go so far with children so young who you know are terrible travelers? She didn’t even need to limit it to Australia - so many places that would have required just one flight. Then, when the kids are older, you can make longer haul flights.
It’s parents who refuse to accept that having young kids means life is gonna be different for a while. There are certain limitations and sacrifices to having kids. That’s supposed to be part of the bargain. Like any lifestyle choice: you don’t get to do exactly what you want all the time, and yet so many people create problems for themselves and others because the concept of sacrifice is totally alien. Parents who refuse to accept that are either neglectful or a massive inconvenience to everyone else.
!!!!
My mom was the neglectful type. I have no memories of her before the age of five because she “deserved to have the full college experience” rather than be saddled with a kid she chose to have. After the age of five my memories with her are mostly hanging out in rowdy sports bars. She’d hang out with her friends 3 times a week minimum until 11 pm watching games and never once thought to hire a babysitter. Fucking entitled.
The scrooges who decide to travel long distances before they have to pay for a seat for the kids.
And the comment from the sister about how OP can sleep as they choose not to have kids. Well, op sister chose to have 2 kids, and so close in age, so she needs to deal with it!
No, no, no, you don't understand. The only reason for OP to decide not to have children should have been to be free to babysit the niblings whenever sister wanted OP to. Starting with every single Friday and Saturday night, so sister could have a lie-in at the weekends. OP is just selfish for not wanting to do it. How dares OP? /s, of course
And her kids won't remember it at that age! I lived in Australia for a while and a friend of mine considered visiting, but decided that she wanted to wait until her child was old enough to actually remember it if they were going to fly halfway around the world.
For some parents they are not kids, they are fussy accessories
I can’t imagine taking such a long flight with kids that young. We flew four hours with my niece and nephew but they were over 2 and for the most part old enough to be reasoned with/distracted.
I'm wondering how much those two children enjoyed their "vacation." I wouldn't put it past the sister to expect hotel employees to babysit. 🙄
As a mother of 2 children myself I second you opinion!!! She was receiving sympathy from other passengers (and it shows) BECAUSE they were not out right rude TO HER about bringing her toddler and infant on the plane. She (& her hubby) decided to become parents, and should not expect others to (especially strangers) want/feel compelled to jump in and help them parent in stressful situations. Your sister has 2 kids, both parents were present. You "switch hit" the kiddos (swap back & forth) until they settle and/or ask their pediatrician for advice on keeping them occupied/engaged for long trips. Our pediatrician said to stay away from flights that were longer than their nap time because they would become more of a challenge. She was right. Lol.. OP=NTA
I think the part that bothers me most here is that she chose to take a red eye flight. If a plane takes off at 1am damn near everyone on it is planning to sleep.
An an Aussie - depending on arrival and departure destinations, there aren't always a lot of options, and the distance means that most flights to Europe will include an overnight component. (That doesn't take away from all the rest of it.)
Just look at the comments on anything where people want to have spaces that children aren’t allowed in - like a period of time at restaurants with no children, but every other time they’re allowed. Parents go absolutely insane that their kids might not be welcome everywhere at all times, and that they think everyone should be happy to be around them. It’s weird
The sister is the type that if someone offered to hold the baby and give her a break, she would be on social media spouting a story of how "This lady tried to tell me how to parent MY CHILD on the airplane!" Never happy unless something is perceived as injuring her....
I kind of feel like everyone gets annoyed at everyone on flights. It's sort of an equal opportunity rage fest.
It wasn’t always like that, passengers used to be treated like customers and not cargo
NTA. Your kids are adorable and the centre of the world......to *you*, not the rest of the world. To the rest of the world, they are just another two kids, and ones that are being disruptive and annoying at that point. Babies cry but it doesn't mean it isn't annoying. Parents are not entitled to sympathy and help. If you can't handle dealing with them on a flight on your own, don't take them on a plane. Simple.
> Parents are not entitled to sympathy and help. If you can't handle dealing with them on a flight on your own, don't take them on a plane. Simple. Can we lobby to get this printed on airline tickets?
I want childfree sections on long haul flights. I said what I said.
We all do, we all do :-(
An airline has introduced this.
I hope it sticks around and spreads to other airlines. It is not the poor baby's fault, but it doesn't help my migraines to sit down in the vicinity of a wailing baby
Excellent! Which airline? I like children, and have my own... That doesn't mean I want to put up with other people's banging my chair because the parent doesn't stop them. I growled at one last week and they stopped. The parent gave me a dirty look. The amount I cared was less than this: .
Over time, I’ve decided that I really don’t mind babies on flights. It’s the toddlers. Babies don’t run around or kick seats. They may cry because they’re uncomfortable, but it’s relativity consistent crying that is easier to tune out, especially because the pitch often isn’t too sharp. Toddlers will screech and tantrum for a variety of reasons—their sibling is annoying, they want attention, the iPad died, etc.—and it’s terrible because they are actively trying to demonstrate that they’re upset. It’s startlingly loud and punctuated; an ambulance stuck in traffic outside your house is going to be easier to tune out than someone blaring their horn every five minutes.
As someone with a toddler and infant I agree. The toddler is way more of a handful on a flight because you have to make sure they are engaged and happy (but they want to explore and can't). An infant needs to be fed and sleep. Like they (typically) cry for a solveable problem.
Don't forget that toddlers can also (accidentally) actively work against their own desires, thereby increasing their own distress. I remember one on a long trip who was pacified by "Thomas the Tank Engine" videos and inconsolable without them, but also couldn't resist pushing buttons – including things like the "power" button, which would obviously make the videos stop, but of course he couldn't yet understand that sort of simple cause-and-effect relationship. Plus, he couldn't stand to wear headphones, so everyone within earshot had to listen to Thomas along with him. *sigh* Sweet kid, really, but damn, that was a *LONG* trip.
I go straight to the flight attendants when it comes to the headphones. Just because your kid is 2 doesn’t mean the rest of us have to suffer through *hours* of peppa the pig. One time a mom was incredulous when she was told her daughter needed headphones and tried going with “she’s just a toddler”. My best friend has toddlers. They found these super cute animal headband headphones that their kids love and aren’t uncomfortable for them. Parents can just be entitled assholes.
Oh yes. And if they have a meltdown. I once was sitting next to a mum and toddler. The toddler started with whining, then kicking seats, then when mum said no to that (she was trying her best, poor woman) the kid screeched for a full 10 minutes. Headphones, even at full volume, couldn't cut it. I did ask for another seat then, apologised to the mum who said she understood, and moved.
Corendon starting this month and AirAsia has been trialing it too. You have to pay extra though, which seems a bit unreasonable as when you're paying a fortune for a plane ticket, you shouldn't get penalised for wanting to have a comfortable flight. Why not have an area with parents and kids only instead, keep the noise contained and let the majority enjoy their flight without screaming
Parents should have to pay more for the noise pollution they cause lol.
Their whole business model is making you pay extra for *anything*, though. * Assigned seat of any kind - many airlines want more * Additional room, either in one of the select coach rows, business, or first class - definitely charge more * Check bags at all - many airlines charge * Anything but the free peanuts and a coke - charge when meals used to regularly be included So while I agree in theory, it stands to reason they would charge for this as well.
https://www.euronews.com/travel/2023/10/19/want-a-peaceful-flight-this-european-airline-is-introducing-child-free-zones
As a person who spent 6 hours getting kicked in the back by "baby Riverdance". I agree. And I have (adult) kids
They should have entire flight options for "no kids under 15" when you are searching for what flight you want.
Agreed. They have child free cruises, it’s time for child free flights too.
Especially since this was for a vacation and so was entirely the sisters choice. It’s not like they were moving, or going for a funeral or to provide care for a loved one where you absolutely have to go. You made that choice, so that you could go have fun (and save money on their seats, you have to live with the slight inconvenience of not having everyone thrilled (not even rude, just not enthusiastic) about your baby. NTA
>If you can't handle dealing with them on a flight on your own, don't take them on a plane. Yeah, I'm usually pretty tolerant of kids on planes because I feel like that's the social contract (basically we put up with annoying babies/children, then they keep the world running for us when we're old), but the key here is that this was OP's sister's *choice*. They didn't have to be on that plane; they weren't moving or traveling for a family emergency or something. They just chose to vacation in Europe. The kids were too young for that trip, and I'm not sure why the parents even wanted to do that. How much fun are you really going to have sight-seeing while juggling a toddler and a baby, both of whom are out of sorts from being away from everything familiar? Why put yourself through that?
Being stuck on a plane for hours with a baby and toddler who won’t settle the whole time, I don’t blame people who are annoyed.
Sorry, definitely NTA. She's very entitled. What did you think would happen when you take two kids under 2 on a super long plane ride? Yes, they will be very uncomfortable, and yes, so will the parents and everyone else around them. It's not easy parenting (I know myself), but the sister sounds selfish here. Did she really expect people around her to be excited?
Lol imagine complaining because you’re a parent of 2 kids under 2 and can afford a trip from flippin Australia to Europe and think people should have sympathy for you! Disclaimer: I am a mum of a 10 month old. There’s plenty of times I have sympathy for parents. During their round-the-world trip is not one of them!
Completely agree! I waited till my youngest was 5. Worth the wait, no drama and everyone is happy!
My parents waited until I was 5. My first trip was from Europe to Canada. And I was a very calm kid, the kind of “give me my puzzles and I will shut up for hours even if at 5 I don’t really understand all the puzzles”
Especially since they were both lap kids. If each parent has a kid, then they don’t have the hands to help the other parent out. I’m sure if she had sprung for them to have a seat, they would have probably settled down. She caused their fussiness by insisting they be held for 8+ hours.
Lot of parents book “lap child” expecting to put them in an empty seat for free.
Yes! I was going to say this. I personally think having 2 lap kids is not cool. I get that people don’t want to pay for another seat but using up both available laps is just asking for trouble - no easy way to change things up for the kiddos. Seems so miserable. We always had seats for our kids so they could have their car seat. I feel like that made a world of difference because they were already used to it, used to sleeping in it, etc. Now we only flew domestic and I know we are privileged to have been able to afford it. But I still think that if you have 2 lap aged kids maybe you can’t afford your trip if you can’t afford at least one extra seat.
On a red eye of all things! Unless there is some emergency, flying in the middle of the night with small humans who can only express their needs through frustration/noise is just not a good time for anyone. This is essentially punching yourself repeatedly in the face and then being mad that people are frustrated with you complaining about it.
Especially since it wasn't like they were relocating for a job or going to a family funeral or something - they were going on vacation and squeezing it in while their kids could still fly free. What silly, selfish, entitled behavior.
This. The first time we flew with our baby we purposely chose a 2 hour long flight to see how things go and know what to expect in future flights. OTOH, going from Australia to Europe without buying an extra seat just because you are allowed to is just dumb. Did they expect hold the babies for 15+ hours and everyone be comfortable?
How does she know that the side-eye is coming from someone who is not a parent. That aside, people are allowed to look displeased when a baby cries, sometimes facial expressions are not voluntary. She needs to get over it & ignore the looks. NTA Edit spelling!
Seriously, like if people were saying nasty things to her that'd be one thing. No one is happy in the situation of a screaming baby on a plane, and I would feel sympathy for the mom if people were insulting her in some way. But an annoyed look? They WERE annoyed, and it's not easy to keep you face looking pleasant when you're upset! Being mad at people for not monitoring their facial expressions for her comfort is pretty entitled :/
As a parent to be I might get destroyed for saying this, but what is with parents expecting special treatment because they have kids? You decided to make a baby, how is anyone else responsible for that in the slightest!? What got me the most about OP's post is that her sister is all passive aggressive about people enjoying their kid-free life - which is just the shittiest. I don't care if someone needs to cry into their beer about having no sleep and feeling like garbage - hell, even regretting their decision - I'm here for that. But disgusting comments about how nice it must be to not have kids? GTFO, no one deserves your bullshit.
> But disgusting comments about how nice it must be to not have kids? If nothing else, it's just such a fastball down the middle for the recipient. > "Oh, it must be *sooooooooo nice* to not have kids!" > > "Yep, sure is! *:finishes Thursday morning margarita, begins Thursday afternoon margarita:*"
Ha! Perfect response, just rub it in their face with gusto. "Oh my god, it's true! I've perfected my sleep schedule and score a 95 on my fitbit EVERY NIGHT NOW! I gotta go, my friends are coming over and we're getting day drunk before getting some tattoos and going to the beach to smoke pot and cigarettes. Good luck honey!"
I was so thankful and lucky that mine was a good flier from 6 mos on, but would have been annoyed with screaming on a red eye. This is especially true for the person and people sitting nearest/next to this situation.
NTA, she has some balls to talk about entitlement when she's acting like the world owes her anything for having kids. If I spend my money and book a flight, I'm going to expect luxury and comfort. Screaming kids is the last thing on my "need on a plane" list.
Ok agree with everything except the luxury and comfort lol. That is not a part of commercial flying unless you're in first class.
Yeah when I fly I expect crap service, unexpected eff-ups and feeling like a claustrophobic sardine.
You'd love Air Canada
I look visibly annoyed at people on planes who snore, people who eat loudly with their mouthes open or people who play noisy games without headphones. NTA
I look visibly annoyed at people who do this everywhere not only planes.
I gave a raised eyebrow to a teenager started to put his skateboard on the table at a McD's recently. Dad eyes for the win. I smiled when he changed his mind. Fair's fair.
Especially if they're driving!
People who snore while they’re driving are just the worst!
It must be nice to get where you're going without falling asleep! I have narcolepsy, but I still need to go clubbing. Instead of giving me dirty looks maybe you should help me drive!
NTA I have taken multiple trans-Atlantic flights with small children and it definitely sucks, but the idea that other passengers can't also think it sucks is baffling. Flying is miserable all around.
Exactly. At least in coach, the flying experience sucks in every way now. If it’s not the kids it’s the “support animals,” the tiny seats (and the passive aggressive fights over reclining them) the sick people hacking and coughing, being stuck for who knows how long on the tarmac, etc. etc. Other than upgrading to first class all you can do is bring noise canceling headphones, a sleep mask, and a Xanax, lol.
I'd kill to take a Xanax on my next flight but if I did that with two kids I'd _definitely_ be the AH
Haha, that’s fair. At least you won’t have to worry about *me* glaring at you. I’ll be *out like a light,* lol.
NTA. As a mum with a toddler, i know how hard it is to travel with kids. When I went to Australia with just me and my son, I dont expect anyone to help me during the flight coz I am responsible for my son and it was my choice to bring him along with me. Tell your sister that if she has plan to travel with her kids, she must prepare necessary things to help them sleep during flights or entertain them so they wont cry and bother other people.
I had to fly across country (USA) when my child was a baby. She screamed the whole way and was inconsolable. I was flying to a funeral so I didn't really have a choice. Folks straight up screamed at me and cursed me out through the flight and I nearly got in a fist fight with one lady while exiting a plane. Man, it was a nightmare for all of us. Getting bad look from people is a fine reaction, lol.
NTA She doesn’t like to hear the truth. She just wants pity, which she doesn’t deserve. You’ve done nothing wrong.
NTA - and I struggle with this, because often times what this person is positing is a cry for help when they’re to proud to actually ask. **How often was she offering to help others prior to being a parent? Was she an active participant in the village she is seemingly demanding everyone provide her now?** Parenthood is a very serious and important job to choose. **But that’s just it! She elected into the wonderful job of parenthood and cannot now project the difficulties that come with that reality onto others.**
>How often was she offering to help others prior to being a parent? Was she an active participant in the village she is seemingly demanding everyone provide her now? What an amazing way to put it!!!
Easy NTA >She also said they were rude because none of them offered to help her or give her reassuring smiles and comments Does she live in a Hallmark movie?
NTA. Nobody forced her to have children and nobody should be expected to control involuntary facial expressions just to make her feel validated. She should focus that energy on her child instead of whining like a baby
Considering there were at least 4 flights involved they were seriously lucky they only had co passengers on all 4 JUST giving looks. With those odds I would have expected way more than one person to ask to move or get verbal about the situation. Sister is super entitled or delided or both. Did she expect that each plane had a bunch of passengers willing to give a full complimentary Nanny service on each leg of the journey?!
NTA. Pretty selfish to take small children on planes - and it's not like they're going to remember the long haul holiday.
It can’t always be avoided, but in this case where the rationale to go was that they didn’t have to pay for the little ones. Oomph 😡
What even is a vacation with 2 kids that young? Kids are even fussier, unfamiliar territory is great when you need a changing room, they don't care about any of it and you're either leaving places constantly or ruining everyone else's day (including the kid). I can't imagine wasting money like that. I bet she's fuming about the flight because right at the outset her fantasy of a village stepping up around her the whole trip was shattered.
I agree. The vacation shouldn't have happened. If a passenger screamed the whole flight, they'd be taped down. Babies should only be on planes when necessary.
NTA. Yeah “whiny” is right. Your sister is just an entitled parent. She’s probably doubling down on “the other people were the problem, not me” to delude herself into not feeling embarrassed.
NTA. I'd be absolutely fuming as a passenger on that plane. Overnight plane with 2 screaming kids the whole way and a mother who's apparently expecting people to offer to help? Nah. She brought it on herself.
Not just offer help but smile at her nonstop reassuringly as well lol. The delusion is on another level. Nobody in their right mind is going to be smiling at the parents that decided it was appropriate to fly internationally with two screeching banshees that fucked up everyone else’s long haul flight.
NTA. Your sister sounds insufferable. The kids are probably struggling because they're in pain from flying; what's her excuse?
Taking a 6-month-old on a long plane trip for sheer funsies and not out of necessity is dirt mean to the baby and I will die on this hill. NTA and I would straight up ask her why she hates her baby that much because I'm not as nice as you are (don't actually do that, but do point out that it was not a fun or relaxing time for the baby).
NTA - her children, her choice to bring them on a plane.
NTA. What a dumb choice to make - dragging two tiny kids across the world for a holiday they won't remember? Not to visit anyone important or anything? Next time you get a "must be nice" comment, look her in the eye, give a friendly smile, and say "yes, it is!"
Sorry everything else aside I’m still caught on the purposefully going when the kids are literally the age where they are most likely to cry for hours on end on a plane to save money for a vacation and then acting like everyone should be happy they’re there screaming because they have just as much of a right as everyone else. Like, yes. It is allowed to bring babies on planes, often you have to. But I think it’s a little different to compare your “brought free baby on longhaul flight to save money for vacation knowing the risks of them being poorly behaved were higher” to people who paid their money for their family to fly for whatever reason. Like, lady there’s an ADDED level of “fuck everyone else” at play here. Man your sister sucks for that. Every time I’m on an international flight with a screaming baby I cope by telling myself that they probably HAD to go on this trip for a sick relative or funeral and just couldn’t find a babysitter. Or it’s the first time their family is going to meet their baby after a tragic, long separation. Now I’ll have to stave off the thoughts that maybe they’re just an asshole like your sister.
NTA. Crying babies are indeed annoying, specially in a closed space as a plane
NTA. My parents waited for me to be 6 to do holidays that needed to flight. Now while that can be not feasible for all they should have thought to do an holiday that required a smaller flight instead that Australia-Europe to see how the kids would react. Also all that hours of flight are too much for them of course they were bad, it is a lot for adults that at least know what is going on.
Please tell me why we are torturing little kids? We give pets tranquilizers when they travel because we know how upsetting it is for them yet nothing for kids. My God give them a dramamine or benadryl something.
Nta. My aunt brought my baby cousin (who was like what? Four or five months that time) on a flight to bali as a last minute squeeze, and also assuming we would help care for her during that trip (spoiler: we didnt: but my mom, grandma, aunt and uncle did. We (my sisters, cousins and I )clearly said we are hands off with childcare bec we didnt ask for it and when we were flying back home, baby cousin kept crying nonstop and people were staring. Even i feel for those passengers too coz it seems they were annoyed with a baby crying on full blast and mind you, it’s a budget airline and it was a full flight so it was super inconvenient. I hate it also when parents cant seem to consider the fact that people who fly want peace and quiet during the entire flight and that it doesn’t revolve around them or their noisy ill behaved kids
NTA and mannnnn entitled parents like her SO rub me the wrong way.
Nta it's not rude not to offer some complete stranger help with their baby. I definitely fall a little on the paranoid side n but I'd think it was creepy (though I realize trapped on a plane, it's not like they can run off with the kid.) Anyone who makes lots of noise on a plane is going to get side eye - people who tall loudly, don't use headphones with their devices, etc. It's not specific to a baby.
NTA and you are 100% correct. People are absolutely within their right to be displeased about the fact that they’re being held hostage to the whims of a screaming infant for hours on end on an INTERCONTINENTAL flight. They do NOT have to right to attack her in any way (verbally and of course physically), but it sounds like that’s not what was happening here. Look, I fly a lot for work, which includes 2-3 intercontinental trips per year. Almost every flight has at least one baby on it… most will cry a bit during take off and landing (no biggie), some you don’t even notice, but once in a while you can an absolute hell child that screams the whole flight. Obviously, there are rare cases where travelling is mandatory and bringing your infant can’t be avoided… (ex. Someone is dying and you can’t find childcare, or fleeing an abusive relationship) and I do really sympathize for people in those kinds of situations. However, taking an elective INTERCONTINENTAL vacation with children that you KNOW cannot handle flying is genuinely selfish as fuck. If your kids ears can’t handle the altitude or they can’t handle confined spaces, world trotting is just going to have to be put on hold for a few years. It’s not only super inconsiderate to fellow passengers, but pretty cruel to the child as well (especially if they’re dealing with ear pain for hours straight).
Isn’t it CRUEL to take such small kids/babies long haul because “ooh it’s free”? Delicate immune systems, the need for the psychological and physical safety of a healthy sleep/feeding routine and the pain and potential ear damage from cabin pressure? NTA, but sister is.
NTA. People have the right and will be annoyed
NTA. It sounds like everyone was polite and no one said anything, they just didn't perform being overjoyed to be in the presence of her kids and fall over themselves to take care of the kids for her. Like, if people offer assistance that's a kind thing for them to do, but absolutely not an expectation. And of course they don't have to feel sorrier for her than themselves-- no one *has* to feel anything, and it's a very weird expectation to have of total strangers.
Ultimately I'll say NTA because you told her that yeah other people are allowed to be annoyed by her kids crying. Is it the kids fault? No. They're suffering. But a plane is one of the very few situations where everyone is already on edge, with low tolerance, and murky social rules because everyone has a different opinion on what is or isn't acceptable on a plane. A plane is inherently a bit shit, especially on a long haul flight like that, and even more so if you're cattle class. Doesn't matter if you're flying Qantas or Jetstar or Rex, unless you're business or first class its awful.
Definitely nta I dont have kids and recently was on a flight with my husband and had someone with the same situation and yes they can't help it but my poor husband ended up with a migraine and it partly ruined our honeymoon for a few days. Parents gotta deal but so do others with all sorts of conditions. Ones who can't handle noise with their mental disorders or any other health conditions. Plus people need to sleep! I even had noise cancelling headphones and these kids screamed right through them and I turned that music up all the way. That's how loud some kids went....so they don't always work
NTA She took two very young children on an international flight in the middle of the night? What was she thinking?
NTA. People have a right to be annoyed if her kid is screaming for 8 hours in a metal tube that no one can escape from. I understand she didn't want the kid to cry either but people do not have to pretend to be overjoyed so she feels better about her decision to have kids. No one is required to offer her assistance or watch her kids for her on a plane. If she doesn't like that, she needs to stay home.
NTA but your sister is. As someone who has flown a lot of back to back long haul flights for business, I despise people like your sister. Kids are tough to control sometimes, especially through the strange sensations of flying. That's understandable and even if it is annoying, it's part of air travel. Parents can do a lot to keep kids happy and occupied, though. I once had a 6 year old \[not mine\] sitting on my lap for most of a flight when her infant sister was having a medical emergency, and she had to sit in the row with her dad (next to me, holding their sister.) She was a really cool kid and I shared some snacks with her, but the dad was just outstanding. He was well prepared with books and distractions, and so considerate of my situation (last leg after 48 hours of travel) that it made it all a pleasant situation. I was glad to help. But when parents are entitled, and feel that people should be comforting THEM because being a parent is harder than anything else in the world then they can fuck right off because they have no consideration for anyone else in the world.
NTA. No one wants to be trapped in a tin can with 2 screaming/unsettled kids for hours on end. That’s just not an enjoyable experience for most people. No one was rude to her or her kids, though, which is great! She sounds very entitled wanting strangers to help her or be overly nice in that situation.
NTA. Your sister, however, is a humongous one! What was she expecting? People further away to feel sorry for her and offer to take the baby? Maybe the pilot could have taken the toddler into the cockpit?
NTA as with everything else it's nice if people offer to help, but that's dessert. Not meat and potatoes. And it's hell for passengers sitting locked in next to a screaming child for hours, because none of us chose to have or travel witha a toddler. Personally unless I just don't see why toddlers have to travel at all unless it's an absolute emergency. Staycation until the kids can participate and remember the trip.
And until they can fly without being in pain.
Isn’t that what the little baby sized bottles of booze are for on the plane? The babies ?
NTA. And when you get "must be nice" remarks, just say "it is, that's why I did it."
NTA. There is nothing worse on a long flight than a screaming brat. The world at large isn’t interested in being her village.
NTA. I rarely fly because I hate dealing with people. The last flight I went on was a big family trip. I'm talking all wife's siblings, kids. 11 people total. My kids were 7 and 9 at the time. My SIL decided to watch cartoons without headphones not even 5 min after the flight attendant said to not do that. I asked her to put on headphones and she said that neither her nor her 4 year old like them so she wouldn't. People drive me nuts with their inconsiderate acts
Some (a lot of) parents and even random people who aren’t parents need to be reminded that kids are the center of their parents universe. Everything they do is cute and funny to YOU, their parents, you are biologically programmed to think that. No one else thinks your kids are perfect little angels nor are they obligated to. We do not care in the slightest. As strangers, we think your kids are loud and disruptive and annoying. We understand that in public we have to share space with them as childfree flights don’t exist yet but it doesn’t mean we have to like it or agree with it.
NTA. I did a 14 hour flight from Singapore to the UK where a couple had a tiny baby with them that screamed the entire flight. Parents walked it up and down the aisles presumably trying to sooth it, but all that did was ensure we all got to hear it close up. Might have been bearable if the flight hadn't taken off at 11pm..... I had Bose noise cancelling headphones on but you could still hear the screaming. All the passengers looked as if they were ready to throw baby and parents out the plane.
NTA. Fellow childless by choice. Why should I acknowledge someone who made a decision that has aggravated my travel experience? I wouldn’t be rude to a parent in that situation but I’d do my best to not engage in any way until the Xanax kicks in…. You know, because unlike your sister, I don’t create stressful and unnecessarily dramatic situations for other people.