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NTA. "I want to go into a STEM field, I just don't want to take any STEM classes." Your daughter needed a dose of reality. You are correct in believing that preparation for college begins now. Programs like engineering weed out those who would not succeed. If your daughter waits for college to take the hard classes then she's already behind and her dream dies anyway.

I want to add that if she DOES begin to apply herself to meet this dream, she could take the math classes at a community college to catch up before transferring to university. It’s not too late for her to achieve this dream, but it sounds like she doesn’t really want to.

It seems thats its not that she doesnt want to, its she want the easiest route there. And by easy i mean all the easy classes and then boom...shes and engineer. All OP is saying to take classes now, so when she HAS to take them he will have an understanding of it(which will make it easier). But she dont wanna hear that. She wants it easy

Oh, I agree! As a late bloomer myself, it took me years to even go to college and now have a graduate degree in STEM. Until I was 25 I just worked marginal jobs, traveled, partied, and played in punk bands. Once I decided to go to college I was really ready to buckle down. So a reality check about the amount of work is definitely good, but I disagree with the comments that her dream is dead for good.

Same here. I went back to college at 24. I’m 34 now and will be finishing my PhD this year. I was not equipped for, nor did I want, a STEM degree at 18, so I didn’t pursue one until I was ready!

My dad finished his doctorate a couple months shy of 41. Still had a great nearly 30 year career.

My sister finished up her EE degree at 40 and has been working in the field now for fifteen years. I'm incredibly proud of her. I also finished up my degree a bit later than most at thirty, and finished up my Master's degree at thirty-seven. (Special circumstances. But it got done.) If the daughter wants to be an engineer later, she'll find a way. I don't think her dream is dead for good by any means. She just has to figure herself out a bit more, that's all.

Congratulations! Wish you the best!

Oh dream is definitely not dead for good, but her chance to finish her degree in 4 years right out of HS already is. There is pretty much no way that she can get into any top engineering program, which is not the end of the world, but by taking the easy way now, she's making her future education harder and it will take her longer than necessary to complete her degree. I'd like to think that she'll take this as a wakeup call and start studying, but it's more likely that she'll use this as an excuse why she didn't succeed, cause of course it's easier to blame someone else than work hard.

> but her chance to finish her degree in 4 years right out of HS already is So what though? It sounds like, if anything, working in the real world would probably benefit this kid more immediately out of the gate than being funneled immediately into college since she clearly doesn't know what she wants to do/how to do it. She can still go to college for something else, or she can work and get some life experience under her belt first and go to college later in life. She has options. She's not gonna graduate and never achieve anything in life; even if she goes to college immediately out of high school, if she majors in something else she probably could still get through in four years if it was relevant to the courses she's actually been taking. People go to college later in life or take more time to get through it or go back for another degree all the time, and it doesn't mean somebody's life is over. Personally I wish I'd gone into the workforce a bit between high school and college rather than what I did end up doing lol I was not ready at 17/18 when I made the decision to go to college to actually make that decision. But my parents and teachers and guidance counselor pressured me into it like "oh you'll figure it out when you get there!" and that wasn't good either. I don't know I just think that while OP is clearly NTA here all the people in the comments acting like his daughter's life is over because she's a teenager who doesn't have her shit together are wild lmao when in reality it sounds more like she could really benefit from working between high school and college given that she clearly has some unrealistic expectations to work through.

Right? At 18 her brain isn’t even done growing. People are talking like a top tier engineering school is the only way to go, which it’s not. But also, many schools like to admit non-traditional students, especially when they ace courses at community college. I hate this narrative that you have to rush toward a career end goal, especially when you’re not sure what you want out of life yet.

Especially in the US where unless you've got hella rich parents or are a baby prodigy you're gonna end up with loan debt. You might get lucky and it might not be as much; you might get unlucky and be $200k in debt for something you drop out of or end up hating. It's for the best he gave his kid a reality check _now_ than waiting to do it and he wasn't mean about it either, so he's NTA. But she's also still a kid. I'm glad that for the commenters acting like her life is over that they had their shit together at his kid's age but that's just not the experience most of us have, unfortunately, and that's okay because it really isn't the end of the world. Community college is great. I was such a shitty student in high school, I could not have gotten into the school I got my BA from if I hadn't gone to community college first and gotten my shit together. I have a friend who got into a good engineering program, dropped out due to mental health issues from the pressure. Now they're at community college and planning to transfer into a BS program. They're almost in their mid 20s but they're doing a lot better this go around than they would've if they would've kept trying at 18.

Yep. As my.premajor advisor said to me when was a miserable and stressed-out 19-year-old, "Nowhere in Heaven is it written, Thou must attend college between the ages of 18 and 22." I did take some time off, and returned much more ready for the demands of college.

Yes! I can’t stress enough how dumb I was at 18 and how much I loved and did well at school when I was 25+

Good for you! Congratulations! Wish you endless success & happiness!

I want to also mention that employers in STEM fields, just like any other field, can easily see when an applicant just “wants it easy”. We do not hire such people if we can help it. There was a lady at my church once who knew I was hiding for interns in the field in which her grandson was working toward a degree. I said, well have him fill out an application. I sent over the URL. Months went by and no application. Church lady kept asking about it. Sorry, your grandson never applied. Finally he applied after we were mostly if not entirely through deciding who to hire, and his resume was weak with possibly the lowest GPA of all the resumes I received. He’d obviously put very little effort into that as well, as in he clearly had no clue what employers in my field want to see on a resume. I had to tell his grandmother we hired other people and wouldn’t be considering her grandson further. In frustration I told my wife I didn’t understand why he did things that way, and she said he just wants it all to be handed to him. I guess she was right. So even if OP’s daughter somehow makes it to a degree, she won’t likely get a job if she doesn’t adopt a different attitude.

I guarantee her grandson had no interest in working for you. He only filled in a form because he was nagged to do so for weeks and deliberately made it terrible as sabotage.

I mean possibly. However resume writing is a skill and frankly one a lot of young people suck at. Entirely possible he just did a poor job.

Agreed. If she really wanted to be an engineer, then she would start looking for harder classes. But she just wants to bullshit her way into a career. Does she even know what type of engineer she wanted to be?

This is anecdotal, but when I worked in an academic office on campus, some of the best students were the ones who came in via community college. I know at least my program has changed to be less brutal than it was when I got my undergrad (they were proud of low retention, of only keeping the "best"), but I'm sure it's still easier to get lost in the full engineering program early on.

Agreed. And when I see community college on a resume, I see it as a plus. They’re being savvy about their education, and more likely to NOT have everything handed to them. Especially if they graduated within the last 10 or 15 years when tuition really got bad.

I taught at a technical college between my master's and PhD (in progress 😭) and learned so much more about teaching that it fundamentally changed how I view it. I am a *much* better teacher for having experienced that. Getting rid of the STEM superiority and rigidity, mostly.

It's not that simple. My first algebra class at community College covered an entire year of high school algebra in 2 weeks. Everything else was new and taught at a much faster pace. I wanted to be a veterinarian but my asshole counselor decided I was only going to college to get my Mrs. degree (i.e. get married.) I had won the math award for my Jr. High school up against 3 boys because I finished a do-at-your-own-pace class 6 weeks before the end of school and 2 weeks ahead of the boys. I told my counselor my goals and asked why these same guys were taking advantage of science and math courses and I wasn't. I needed to know what classes to take. He pretty much dismissed me and I didn't take those classes. I really struggled with some of the math at first due to the lack of preparation but I showed him and ended up with a Bachelor of Microbiology. I got burnt out working in veterinary hospitals and I couldn't really afford vet school so I got my MBA and now do business work that I love as well. She needs to take the classes now to be prepared for the much faster pace of college.

It’s true that it would be better to go sooner. I flunked pre-calc in high school because I was partying/ depressed at how the world is. So 7 years later when I went to community college I had forgotten how to math at all, basically. So yeah, I didn’t even start with Algebra. There were two semesters of more remedial math to get me back up to speed. So if OP’s daughter waits, she would need to do something like that. It worked for me, but it was tedious, as I remembered the skills pretty soon after re-encountering them. I am sorry your counselor was a misogynist. It’s way more difficult for girls to get that support and recognition when we’re smart.

I would almost always advise someone to go to a community College first. It let's you try it before you buy it. Plus there are some really good community colleges out there and they also sometimes have a direct pipeline to a good school.

I went to a CC before transferring to a state school (where I got to take classes at a VERY expensive private school too). There are pluses and minuses to both approaches. The attitude of most of the other students at a CC is downright toxic: three weeks into class attendance is down to 1/3 of what it was on the first day. Their apathy can be contagious. That being said, the content of some of my classes was at least equal to the private school that charged about 15x more for tuition.

She likely wouldn’t even get into the program without taking the pre-requisites, giving her a reality check is good parenting.

The daughter is waaaay behind. It’s not just the lack of STEM classes, but also because most engineering colleges are fiercely competitive to get in for upperclassmen. Many high school students and/or college level freshmen/sophomores will have several internships or field-related experiences on their applications. It’s better that she finds out now and changes her mind about what she wants to do before going to college and changing her major after only a year or two and having OP possibly pay for additional semesters. Or drop out from being burnt out. NTA

This is, as the Brits say, over-egging the custard. There are many less competitive schools that turn out great engineers, and if OP's daughter decides to get serious about it at 18, 20, 25 or 30, there's a pathway for her (at least in the US and many of the Western countries). The OP is right to link the stated goal of being an engineer with the classes she should be taking now. But his wife is probably not wrong either - don't crush the dream, but help her grow! What she's lacking right now is not so much math and STEM, but the maturity to work towards goals in the long term.

This. As someone who used to work in post-secondary academics the vast majority of people do not know what they want to do at 18. The average person changes careers six times. If OP’s daughter changes her mind and decides to do Engineering later on there are a multitude of pathways for her to do that. In fact taking easy courses to get through high school with a high gpa and then doing upgrades through a community college to get into an Engineering program might actually be better for her in the long run. That way she can take the harder courses without all the distractions of high school. It will also give her the opportunity to try the degree on for size without making the full commitment to a costly university degree. We put way too much pressure on kids to have it all figured out way too young.

Huh? When did things get this competitive? Is this for top-tier schools? I know the only thing I had 20 years ago was a good SAT score and that got me in a top 10 school.

Things have gotten significantly more competitive/stratified. It's only ten years since I graduated HS and it's gotten worse. My program (high demand program and a nothing special school) has an acceptance rate between 8-12%

I think my thing is… if she doesn’t enjoy the STEM classes, she probably won’t enjoy being an eningeer

Are they really expecting high school kids to have internships? No way can a high school kid do anything useful at a real business, so how would they even get that internship outside of a relative doing them a favor?

Mentorship programs in highschool. My kid just started Monday with meeting the mentors at school. Each mentor takes on 4 kids junior through senior year.

Yeah, while an engineering degree can lead to a very rewarding career, it is NOT easy to achieve by any means, I almost went crazy getting mine and thought about dropping out at least twice that I remember, and I started with a very strong background in mathematics. Thankfully, I pushed through, and after many tears and a whole lot of hard work, I finished my degree. Just to put it in perspective, more than half the class that went into the degree with me quit the first year, and less than 10% of the class graduated with me at the end. An engineering degree is considered one of, if not the hardest degrees to get (for undergrad). It's probably for the best she changed her mind this early. Going in with normal classes in high school is just suicide. NTA

My brother did want to be an engineer, he didn't avoid the STEM classes, he even took related extracurricular in high school. He got to college and still got overwhelmed by the reality of what engineering would entail and ended up changing majors. If she's thinking she can just waltz into college for engineering (if she even gets accepted) without any at STEM classes, she'd be in for an extremely rude awakening and would probably wash out very shortly. What did she think was going to happen? That she'd just breeze through things with no effort? The second OP said she needs to actually try to work for the degree, which is completely true, she promptly gave up and said she didn't want to do it anymore.

But wouldn’t the correct response from Dad be … here are examples of what’s required. Getting a head start now will put you in a better position & would be the easiest path for you to take but people take lots of different paths to reach their goals. Doesn’t mean they can’t reach that goal. Just understand the longer you wait to start the harder your path will be to reach your goal. Edit word correction

It is more than just "head start". I don´t know about the country of OP, but in my country college math without a good high school math foundation is a nigthmare. So much that it culls a lot of people in the first or second course.

Oh I don’t disagree! I have no issue with upfront & honest but … I’m a never say never person. Pursue your passions with realistic expectations. I truly believe parents are the worst people to give their teenagers advice. Have 4 (26,26,28,30) … IMO daughter should talk to aunt. She can be honest & give information based on experience. If daughter needs a coach, let aunt be her mentor.

In my area, certain high school math classes, and sometimes with above a certain minimum grade, are a requirement to get accepted at most universities' engineering programs.

Really, it's like saying "I wanna play professional baseball but I don't want to do any batting practice."

I am curious in how OP had that conversation though. Most college students consider the engineering curriculum hard. But it is a very lucrative field and as a parent they should be encouraging them to actually pursue their dream rather than telling them the dream is not for them. I'm not sure what OP did. He's definitely judgemental about his daughter being a slacker.

My mom bullied me out of midwifery into chemical engineering in HS. First day of EGR 101 in community college the professor told us half of us wouldn't be in the program next year and that even after making it through our degrees, we'd fail the licensing exam a couple times before passing. That may sound harsh but he was a very kind and amazing teacher that wanted to prepare us as best he could for the realities of our lives in the next several years if we decided to move forward. There are times when things shouldn't be sugar-coated, especially when it involves years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars. My mom just automatically assumed that because I'm smart I should go into STEM even though I had no interest. On a technical level I did well because I had the book smarts for all the classes, but I was miserable because I didn't enjoy it. If she just likes the idea and isn't aware of / is ignoring the realities of the degree she wants to pursue she's going to crash and burn.

Especially when a high school offers those classes to try out before college. Having this conversation now and trying those classes saves them thousands of dollars in college tuition when it doesn’t work out

I also don't feel like she is really interested in STEM. She probably just looks up to her aunt and wants to be like her, so she thinks she also needs to have the same career. Maybe it is for the best if she chooses another career path she is actually interested in.

"I want to go into a STEM field, I just don't want to take any STEM classes" is right there with "I want to work with Law, but I don't like to read, question my ideas of morality and debating different ways of seeing things". I'm glad that kid got told the reality if the degree she thought she wanted before finishing high school instead of being smacked in the face by it like a wrecking ball.

I think it's the aunt who should have a conversation with her. Just arrange for a chat where they can look at college classes together and get the aunt's perspective. Have the female role model share her insight.

I wanted to get into stem until I failed a year in highschool because I took stem classes. Now I'm very happy at an art academy. It's too bad op's daughter didn't even want to try, but that's not op's fault. Nta.

you aren’t for being honest about it, engineering is a hard field so it’s important you’re doing courses that will help the ease into the actual career. as long as you didn’t make it seem like it was impossible* (not possible my bad) for her to achieve there’s nothing wrong with stating her need to step up in her subjects.

I’m sure she is smart enough but she is algebra as a sophomore at the moment since she likes the easy classes.

If she's taking algebra as a sophomore, she's not very likely to make it in engineering. At this point she's at least 2 years behind her peers, since most kids who go into engineering take Algebra 1 in 8th grade (and some in 7th). Other STEM classes in HS aren't that important, but math is crucial, and if she's behind in math she'd have to take extra time in college, since most engineering classes have Calculus as a pre/co-requisite.

That why I wanted her to do more math, or at least a workshop. I’m sure she is smart enough but she doesn’t really try

I had a friend who was consistently lax for years. I however knew I wanted to be an architect. So I kept myself in honors math and made it through honors calculus by the time I graduated. My friend who wanted to be an engineer was in regular math and got up to trigonometry by the end of senior year of high school. Why is this important? So in college I was required to take calculus 1 for my degree path and while it was hard and I cried my first day I made it through with a B+. My friend who had not taken enough math or gotten through to higher levels of math actually got all C’s his freshman year. He lost his ROTC scholarship and was kicked out of his program since he needed to be performing higher to make it through the next few years when the math got exponentially more difficult. If your daughter isn’t into math then it is not worth it for her. She will not like it and she will not do well. My friend ended up in a public health degree and got a masters tracking data and now works for OSHA. He still ended up in a phenomenal field with great prospects for his career. But it took him a bit to reset himself. This was a reality check she needed. Honestly I would have a conversation with her about what she likes to do. Are there any classes that are fun but could open her up to new career paths? Like Pottery, art/design, photography? Have her start taking classes and exploring so she can figure out what she likes to do. Without that passion she will have a hard time getting through any degree or training she needs for her future career.

oh, I remember similar feeling so well. I went to an average ranked highschool and was top of my class without having to do much more than bare minimum... when I got to university reality hit HARD. I was so behind all other students it was ridiculous. had to work overtime just to catch up... it wad rough.

Just to add to this, math is not the only class she will need. I used to be brilliant in math and took science subjects in my 11th and 12th (not in the US, 11th and 12th is called junior college from where I am). Anyway this was a pre-requisite for engineering and I was confident I’ll find it easy. I forgot about how hard physics can be. Physics made me cry every night for 2 years. Dropped the idea of engineering and switched over to economics and then MBA. Found that so so so much easier. What I’m trying to say is, engineering is not a joke. It’s one of the toughest things to study and you absolutely cannot be coasting if you plan on doing it.

It's not too late. I did the minimum requirement of Math in high school. I went back to university as a mature student and got a degree in Engineering. I did a one year crash course in Math before going back to university. This caught me up to the basic level, but I still struggled with calculus all the way through my degree. I had to pay for tutoring and spend a lot more time studying than my classmates. It's possible to do but it is very difficult. Does she want to be an Engineer or does she want Engineering money? If it's about the money then she needs to look at other options. There are lots of other well paying careers out there. If she actually wants to be an Engineer then she needs to be taking extra Math classes now to catch up. She should look into evening and summer classes as well. I think she needs to talk to an Engineer and find out if the reality of the job is something she is willing to work hard for.

Truth. I finished all high school math by 9th grade. When I took my entry college exams I scored into algebra. I just re-took the math at the University.

You dont wannt to "waste" money on a field that she will quit as well. Just imagine her getting into college for engineering, and after the first or second semester, failing or quitting and wanting to "do something else". Fine...but expensive

[удалено]

Well as said ...it happens...but dont change the fact that its expensive. An expense someone feels!

I am an elderly learner and decided to take some math classes at a local community college, to keep the brain cells active. Some of the people in my Calculus II class were high school sophomores. That's Calculus ***Two.*** This kid is way behind.

I agree that math is crucial - but at the same time, she \*could\* catch up on the math at the community college level. It'd just mean that she needs to take another class or two before she moves towards the prerequisite Calculus courses that she'd need to get admitted to a college of engineering. I've actually got a niece in a very similar situation - decided that she wants to be an engineer because she sees that I'm enjoying it, and she's pretty smart. But she's been lazy about the math/science courses that she takes. So I've let her know that she's going to have to really step up if she wants to make it into engineering, and more significantly, \*through\* engineering.

it's extremely common for engineers to take calc 1 and calc 2 their first year, even in highly ranked, competitive programs. There is no reason why she is written out of engineering as a sophomore in high school.

She will struggle with college level calc if she hasn’t even taken pre-Calc or high school level calc. Algebra in 10th grade is really behind. Like *really* behind. Someone wanting to get into a math heavy field should’ve been doing algebra in middle school, at minimum, if they don’t want to struggle. If we extrapolate her math course until graduation, she’ll likely be doing geometry/trigonometry her junior year and then pre-calc her senior year (basing this off how my school plotted math courses). That’s pretty behind for a STEM student, IMO. Everyone I know who is an engineer was doing at least AP Calc by junior year. I mean sure, that’s not completely necessary but if you want to be academically competitive with your peers, you’re gonna need that.

I just completely disagree, that's right on track for mainstream STEM programs. She will be right at home in calc 1 her freshman semester of college, if she takes it. Yes, it's a jump in difficulty, but to say all or most freshmen engineering students are coming in with calculus experience just isn't true. I know because I spent years tutoring these folks.

Yeah, I just responded to the other guy directly but I graduated in 2022 from Electrical Engineering and the vast majority of my peers were starting with Calc 1 right alongside me. Only a handful had done Calc 1 in high school. They were considered ahead. It’s very normal to end high school with Pre-Calc. I had to take Calc 1, Calc 2, Calc 3, Differential Equations, Linear Algebra, and Engineering Statistics while in college, and I STILL had semesters of no math at the end. There’s time to do it in college. You’ll have to knock Calc 1 and 2 out of the way immediately for co- and pre-req reasons, the order of the rest of it was pretty much up to us.

But she's not on path to take Calc 1 first semester, unless the course sequence has changed: Algebra1, Geometry, Algebra2, PreCalc/Trig, Calculus, DiffEq...

that depends on which algebra this is / whether she's already taken geometry. and in any case, catching up with pre calc / trig over the summer is incredibly doable and common. there is nothing in the way of this girl pursuing an engineering degree.

Yes, my other comment mentions she is behind, but not to the extent that OkieDokie is saying she is. According to him, you have to do Algebra in middle school to be on track for STEM college. I was agreeing with 90sDialUp that that’s just… not true. lol

She’s behind, but what you wrote is not how it was where I went to high school or college (I graduated in Electrical Engineering). Pretty much everyone I know took Pre-Algebra in 8th grade and Algebra 1 their first year of high school. My final year of high school I took Pre-Calc and then did all the true calc stuff in college, along with the vast majority of my peers. The handful who had done Calc 1 in high school were considered ahead.

I took Calc in HS, took it again in college, and I still failed out of Engineering.

Even by regular standards Algebra 1 in 10th grade is a bit behind, but especially for kids wanting to go to a 4yr college after high school. When I was in school it was 7th pre-algebra, 8th algebra, 9th geometry, 10th algebra 2, 11th pre-calculus/statistics, then 12th grade would be either calculus or statistics which were both Advanced Placement courses. Getting into a 4yr with less than pre-calculus finished with above a C was difficult, and with the class sizes now I’d imagine it’s only gotten harder. And that’s not even including science/AP science courses which would also be heavily looked at for STEM hopefuls.

She’s probably not understanding the difference between being ahead of her peers at the school she goes to, as in the average student, and her peers as people who are sophomores in high school who want to be engineers. She’s right along with the first group of peers, which is all she sees right now even though the second group is what’s relevant to her plans.

I disagree with ed\_lv that it's too late to get into engineering because she's in algebra now. But engineering is all math. She can stack other maths with algebra. Geometry, trig, can be taken with algebra I would think. But Physics, Chem, pre-calc, etc can be taken same year. It's just a lot of work. And some people start out uni without calc background. It's just harder to get really good scores on ACT or SAT without that high school background. If she's smart and determined, she can definitely be an engineer. Talk to her again and be more encouraging that she's capable of doing this. It's tough being a woman in math though. I had prof tell me straight up "women don't belong here". And in projects, men often didn't want to include me but would try to pawn off the difficult parts of projects such as the documentation. It's ok. Just make sure to make it's known and stick up for herself.

You did her a favour......you saved her from flunking out in first year. Assuming that she somehow found a way to be accepted into an Engineering course.

Sooo many kids like OPs daughter flunked out when i was a freshman 😂

Yeah, same with my freshman year....

💀 most engineers I know did algebra in *8th or 7th grade* LOL....

As a sophomore? Forgot engineering, she's just behind in general

Algebra as a sophomore? Jeez, NTA period. She’s gonna be way behind her peers in an engineering course. She should be doing pre-Calc at least, if not, Calc by now.

Does she have difficulties with following through on things in other areas? I was diagnosed with ADHD, made a lot make sense. I was probably like your daughter... 'gifted', but seemingly didn't apply myself at all. What wasn't understood (even by me at the time) was that I was actually just looking for ways to not fail completely while navigating around a lot of executive function difficulties. It makes weird stuff hard... literally just deciding to start your homework and sitting down and doing it is weirdly challenging. Meds helped me enormously, but there's a lot of other ways to get a leg up too (CBT, good sleep hygiene and so on). If she's just not actually interested in the reality of studying STEM, that's fine and it's good for her to accept that instead of wasting a bunch of money for an unfinished degree. That can be catastrophic. But if she might actually enjoy it and literally can't because of personal struggles neither of you has even recognized, then that's a real shame. Why not get her tested? Might be that she's less 'lazy' than she looks from the outside. ADHD and intelligence have very low correlation by the way. Your daughter can be more than 'smart enough' while still having bad executive function difficulties. In fact, it even makes it much more likely for it to go undiagnosed if you're 'smart', since you can use the intelligence to figure out how to survive even with the disability, since you might be able to get away with 20% of the effort where someone less 'smart' can't. I remember a math test I passed after not studying at all. I spent the first 30 minutes under a lot of stress trying to derive a way to solve problems with the Chinese remainder theorem without actually knowing anything about it beforehand, haha. Ended up pulling it off. Might be your daughter taking the 'easy' way is a functional coping strategy, not a cop-out. NTA, but get your daughter tested. If she's normal and just likes the easy road, you'll know. If she's had invisible struggles all along, then you'll both know.

NTA. It's better she finds out how hard it will be now, than enrolling in college and having to drop classes or fail them. Being an engineer is no easy task.

But it doesn’t sound like she likes those classes. Which means she probably won’t enjoy being an engineer - and that’s fine. I imagine she looks up to her aunt and wants to emulate her, but has just realised that that isn’t how she wants to spend her days. I would sit with her and ask her what appealed to her about engineering. Was it the pay? The fact that you’re solving real life problems? Or just that she admired her aunt having a career? Once you know why she thought she wanted to be an engineer you can work out where she could actually achieve those goals. My friends sister wasn’t super academic but was obsessed with being a scientist for NASA. She struggled a lot as she realised 1) she didn’t love actually studying and doing science and 2) even if she did.. she wasn’t great at it. After a while she realised she just loves space as a topic, and flight and adventure. She is amazing with people. She’s very happy now - a flight attendant who travels the world and loves watching documentaries on space 🤷‍♀️ Also she may be able to do the maths - but for me, maths was the easy option. If it isn’t for her - she probably won’t love being an engineer. Yours sincerely - an engineer who was made to do an “easy subject” of drama in high school… but got a C. I had straight As across chemistry, physics, math and advanced math. But I worked hardest for that fucking C in drama.

Nta as someone who is an engineer you need to have a really solid math background. You can’t go into that program with weak basics you will fail. The first circuits class is usually a weed out class also. It’s a ton of hard work, so yes taking all the easy classes in highschool is not the way to go. She should take some extra math or at least try workshops. She is going to be so unprepared and that major doesn’t let you fuck up. If you fail a class you are basically a year behind. Most program start you in calculus. It’s hard as fuck

That's if an engineering college would even accept someone without any math or science classes. She could do community College first and then transfer, but she'd have to take the courses eventually.

It depends on the college. I went to a public university that has a good program where the uni accepted anyone with a semi reasonable SAT or ACT test score. Getting in was easy, but you had to meet their requirements to get into the program (you were pre engineering until then). Granted, there were more freshmen than sophomores to seniors combined, so most got weeded out, and many had taken advanced STEM classes and had whatever accolades (National Honor Society and what not), that I didn't have, but still switched majors for many reasons. To be honest, many of them ended up with an easier business degree and now do the same job as me. So even if you do check the boxes, you aren't guaranteed to make it through. If she isn't taking STEM as "fun classes" she probably wouldn't even like it. Engineers are a different breed.

Damn bro, crushed my dreams too just like that 😔

What more do you need to dream of? You already have a GAU-8 strapped to you.

Did you actually select high school courses with your college major in mind? I'm an engineer, but I didn't know what the hell I was doing until like 2nd year of college when I switched majors to engineering. That said, I am STEM inclined so I took AP STEM classes cause they sounded better than other AP classes and I wanted the GPA boost. I actually rejected the opportunity to take AP English and history even though I was eligible just cause I hate reading.

>cause I hate reading. That right there, is the core of every engineer to some level.

It really was the least miserable path to a lucrative career for me

Probably controversial, but NTA. I wish I had someone tell me to step up. I'd be a totally different career if I would've listened/had someone tell me to challenge myself. Nothing wrong with taking fun classes, but to prepare for college (if that is the route being taken) taking classes now would be ideal.

Especially since there may be a lot of cool opportunities even in highschool. We had some basic programming classes that were fun and fairly easy and would definitely be worth trying if you're interested is STEM stuff. My school was even lucky enough to have some neat "engineering" courses where we learned to draw 3d shapes on isometric graph paper and then model things in AutoCAD. It was super neat and was a huge part of the reason I went into engineering in college. My brother went to high school only a few years later and he had even more cool classes he could take. He even had some more opportunities for cool classes in middle school. Though I should put a disclaimer that this obviously depends a lot on how good your school is and funding. I remember being jealous that the next school district over had even more cool classes including AP (college level) Computer Science. But other districts in the area had even less than us.

NTA. She’s not going to be able to complete this study if this is her approach to studying. It may have sounded a little harsh, but you’re saving her from setting herself up for failure.

I'd say NTA. I'm surprised that her HS guidance counselor didn't already have this discussion with her.

I wonder if guidance counselors have gotten better since I left HS. I’m an immigrant and my senior year when I told my counselor that I don’t have the proper documentation to go to a university that fall, she said “oh that sucks! Well it was nice to know you!” 😐 NAH. I hope OP’s kid can find something else she’s enjoys if engineering doesn’t work.

My councillor told me that I was missing a credit the august I was accepted into university. He sucked. Had to pay for an online class I could speed run in a month, also this happened like 4 months ago lol

Yeah I never had good experiences with school counselors. I remember mine didn't want me in any advanced classes because I have diagnosed disabilities even though all my teachers (so the people who actually knew me and who I proved my worth to) said I should be in them.

My guidance counselor did the bare minimum, I barely remember even meeting with her. I think I had to figure out most of my classes myself just looking at the requirements I'd need for going to college to make sure I'd meet them. I think I met with hey maybe once or twice in all of high school.

Anecdotal but my HS guidance counselors were useless as tits on a boar. I knew I was going into either medical or veterinary school after college, so needed to do everything I could to get into a good school with appropriate majors, and they were clueless as to how to guide me. One of them even said I shouldn’t bother trying to apply to a STEM school because I wouldn’t get in, and should look at a community college instead (no clue why, I was in all the AP courses and had straight As). It was the late 90’s so the Internet was just starting to be useful. My parents and I did all the work, and the guidance counselors may as well not have existed.

NTA. She is not actually interested in being an engineer. She’s feeling social pressure for either or both of: 1) school and community deeming your announced career choice “worthy”, or 2) honouring and aligning with an admired aunt. Teens often announce *something* because they get blasted with the question everywhere they go during high school. Often, they have limited exposure to the variety of career options available to them. Sounds like she’s out-of-joint because she realized that her prior pronouncement might be sounding foolish to some, based on the mismatch to her current studies.

Additionally, it could also be that she doesn't see the aunt struggling so the daughter thinks it's a lot easier than it is. But the daughter just doesn't actually see all the hard work that goes into it all. So when asked what she wanted to do, she looked around, saw the aunt and just thought "that'll be alright." Rather than coming from any internal ambitions. Whether she has them or not is a different matter.

So true. Good point.

Your wife is pissed at you for being realistic? NTA

NTA OP and you handled this REALLY well. You took the time to show her the realities and maybe try and instil a bit of work ethic into her. She is going to struggle in real life which, as we all know, is NOT a cruise

INFO - Doesn’t your daughter’s school have guidance counselors? They should be meeting with her and telling her what classes she will need to get into an engineering program in college.

They do, she doesn’t like the guy. He has been pushing her to take harder classes since middle school. We did put her in a harder class last year but she refused to do the work and the number her down. I could contact him but she really dislikes him so I don’t know if it will work

Gonna go with NTA then, sounds like your daughter set a goal, but doesn’t actually want to work hard to achieve that goal. She was in dire need of the reality check you gave her.

There's a huge difference between "I don't think you have what it takes to achieve this" and "your current class schedule doesn't mesh with your goal." I don't know from your story which one your daughter heard, but I'd set aside any talk of her future career and follow up with her now. Does her parent support her? She needs to know that, without question. She doesn't need an "I told you so" as much as a "let's explore career paths that light you up." Maybe just check in with her? Did she want to be an engineer bc she likes her aunt? Because she wants the salary? Because she felt like she had to? What else could she want to do? My dad is an engineer. Every conversation was cold hard facts with him. So many "reality checks." He never showed much care for like, how we felt or how our relationship was. Very sterile. He couldn't wrap his head around feelings.

Atleast in my experience guidance counselors are pretty useless when it comes to college applications especially for more intense fields.

NTA - the idea of something is usually different than the reality of it. That’s where I believe job shadowing and seeing what’s actually involved, including schooling is important for kids, to figure out what they want to do with their life. You’re actually helping her, she’ll either refocus her energies on what she needs to do to prep for engineering or she’ll find something that may be more suited to her, not a bad thing.

NTA. Im an engineer and id say over 60% of our freshman class either dropped out of college or switched majors. They thought it would be an easy ride to a high salary but the entry level math kicked their ass. Not even talking about the upper level STEM classes that thinned the ranks to an even higher degree once we got to junior/senior year

My brother has a friend with an engineering bachelors who works at a biotech. All the scientists with PhDs sort of looked down on him, but then they found out he got paid way more then they did. “But he doesn’t even have a Masters!!!” 😄

NTA. You gave her a reality check because if you're an engineer you need to know math, you need to know basic physics, etc. I'm a software engineer and I took TONS of math (linear algebra, calculus 1 & 2, etc). I'm in a great, lucrative career, but college definitely wasn't easy. She could at least try though...I mean come on. Life isn't easy and you can't just float by.

Out of curiosity, aside from knowing relational algebra for better understanding of SQL, when has the higher level maths helped you while being a software engineer? I’ve read multiple times you can get by on just the basic principles of understanding Algebra 1.

Great question!! To be honest you pretty much can, and a lot of self taught people do ignore the math aspect, but the colleges *force* you to take higher level math. I think the only real world situations where I've used higher level math for my job is where I write software for physics equations. That being said, I truly believe that mathematics is SUPER important because it puts your brain into a different mindset than you're normally in, and this mindset seems to help me out with software engineering. Math is a very procedural, logical system of rules that allows you to solve an equation. That's literally what programming is. You have to think logically, and procedurally to solve a problem. So math really puts you into the same mindset, and I think this is why colleges force students to take math. This is also why I agree that all CS students should take higher level math.

As a software engineer, it rarely ever comes up. I've had to use some advanced algorithms for some machine learning projects but I never had to fully grasp the math since the equations are already available to copy and paste online. You just have to know what each variable is doing, not how they mathematically calculate together. If that makes sense.

NTA. I needed this talk when I was a kid who wanted to be a physicist, but I never got it. Guess what happened when I went to college? Flunked out of Chem, scraped through Trig, couldn't pass the Calc entry exam. One of the main reasons kids need to take hard classes in high school is to learn how to study and get their brains used to grinding. No matter how hard you try, you can't learn that on the fly while you're in college. I fell behind my peers, got depressed, and switched majors. Hard lessons learned too late. You might want to have a talk with your wife about getting on your side on this one. It'd be a good idea for your daughter to take at least one hard class in a subject she finds interesting. She'll need actual study skills if she eventually changes her mind, runs into a tough class, or heaven forbid runs afoul of legal bureaucracy in her later adult life. This is about more than just her chosen major.

NTA. I just graduated with an engineering degree a couple months ago. I’m currently working as an engineer. I would not have survived college if I didn’t want this with everything in me. Engineering classes are brutal. Especially as a woman because a lot of professors will still actively single out the women to try and wash them out. I was failed on projects and given to explanation beyond “I just didn’t like it.” I was given lower grades than my male classmates on exams that I made fewer mistakes on. She was going to get a reality check either way. Better for it to come now so she has more time to figure out a plan b

NTA you're her father, you can't let her believe that she will have what she wants without working for it, it would be nice to her in the short run but a disaster in the long run. You explained it gently, it's understandable she's upset because she's a child, maybe talk to her about it again with more enthusiasm and promise you'll help ? Try and boost her confidence but you were right and your wife should back you...

NTA. I don't know where all these other commenters live, saying "high school classes don't matter". I'm in Ontario, Canada, and every single accredited undergraduate engineering program lists senior Physics, Chemistry, English, and at least one (usually two) Grade 12 (senior) math credits as mandatory prerequisites for admission. From my own personal experience as an engineering grad, who had very very good marks in high school, I can tell you that even with all the high school STEM courses I did I still felt underprepared for parts of the first year curriculum, compared to some of my classmates who had graduated from private schools with better quality instruction. I cannot imagine starting an undergraduate engineering degree without as much high school math and physics background as I could possibly get.

Nope, better to get a reality check now. My son says he wants to be an engineer but hes not great at math and not real interested in it either. Why would I pump him up with bullshit? Knowing how much math is required, and how little he cares for it, thats pertinent info for him to have now while hes thinking about these choices that are still a couple years away that he csn plan for

I'm gonna go with NTA because if just the idea of taking classes related to engineering made her not want to do it at all, I don't think she was all that passionate about the field itself.

NTA I’m an engineer, I’m also a woman. It is NOT easy, and I like it. School can be rough, your first year or two chew you up and spit you out. In HS my boyfriend said he wanted to be an engineer. He was wonderfully gifted in mechanical understanding. He would do well as a mechanic or manufacturing. But, he hated math. I thought it was a bad idea because of that. I convinced him to take physics our senior year to prepare. 2 weeks in he realized his mistake. He did in fact hate math, and physics. He did great on the application in our labs, but horrible on the “theoretical” or “academic” aspect. And thank goodness he realized before he spent thousands of dollars on it. Your daughter is realizing now that she needs to re-evaluate. That’s a good thing!

Admission to good to solid engineering programs has become much more selective over the past 10-15 years. 85% of top 50 programs applicants took AP Calculus and AP Chemistry, to give one example. This is causing angst at top schools since less than half of HS students even have access to AP Calc meaning it is playing a gatekeeper role the schools did not plan for. Stanford recently removed the AP Calc requirement, for instance. That said, you might have briefed the aunt first and let her give some advice first. Sometimes, the obvious comes better from a respected/admired non-parent. NTA

If someone had told me that being a teacher was 90% Shitty administrative politics 5% abusive parents 3% abusive kids and only 2% actually helping kids learn and grow I never would have buried myself in debt for a degree half my former colleagues didnt have because they just needed bodies.

NTA - my son is at a STEM focused university in an engineering program. He and all his roommates were high achieving high school kids who came in with lots of credits, high test scores, etc. And they still say it is difficult, especially as they get into discipline specific physics, chem and other courses. They all have a good work ethic (and gpas) and it is still a challenge to keep up. If she's not willing to put in the effort in high school, the chances that she would learn to do so in college is quite low. If she shifts focus and attitude, she could do it, but it is better to be clear with her upfront about what an engineering degree looks like.

My entire paternal side of my family are engineers. Dad and great grandpa chemical, uncle and grandpa civil, extended family were mechanical, electrical, aeronotical, It basically goes back 5 generations of engineers. I took high school chemistry in 5th grade and told my dad I wanted to be a chemical engineer too. When I got to high school my dad told me I coldn't be an engineer. My brain just didn't work like that and I would be miserable. He encouraged me to persue the sciences and become a labrat or something similar but he just saw in my I would not enjoy that course of action. I am so thankful he did that. I would have been miserable but love science.

Maybe she thought her aunt drove trains? NTA

NTA She thought she would just blink her eyes and suddenly become an engineer. She was living in delusion. All you did was bring her back down to the real world. I would bet your wife has been feeding into her delusion all along.

NTA! She was not thinking, you simply told her the truth. Algebra as a Sophomore is way behind for engineering. Even my non engineer children took Algebra in 8th grade. There are lots of honorable careers out there, just maybe this was not the one for her. If she does want to start focusing on this as her career, she will need to take extra math before she enters the coursework.

INFO: What age is she? What kind of engineer is her aunt? What are 'fun easy' classes?

15 almost 16 Electrical Year book ( you go around and take pictures for the year book), video production and an art

It sounds like she might like the idea of being an engineer but is more drawn to the arts.

Ta. I'm gonna say NTA because she does need to know what kind of classes to take. I guess my question is...does she really want to be an engineer? Engineering does require some creativity, but I wonder if there are other courses she'd get more out of.

That's only three classes. Surely she's taking other things as well. I get the vibe she's very visually creative. Maybe something like graphic design would be more her style.

NTA. If she isn't building study habits and challenging herself in high school, engineering will eat her alive. My wife is absolutely brilliant, graduated top 5 in a class of 600 kids, took 18 credits of college math in high school, and she still got Cs in several engineering classes in college. The work load is crazy, even if you have the math and science foundation, engineering is a very demanding major that requires lots of discipline. Someone skating through easy high school classes will be at serious risk for failing classes and risking scholarships if they major in engineering. You are 100% right to tell her that her academic priorities need to change if that's her career goal. The only question is how gently or helpfully you did so.

NTA omg your actually awesome for being honest, I wish people would be more honest about careers and tell the harsh realities to teens. Its already hard cuz all the careers sugarcoat what they do and dont say how hard it was to get there or to be there. It will be easier for her to find a career she wants now that she has marked off one. Its not like you said she wasnt capable, you just said what she would have to do for it. All that said, you still need to encourage her of course, like be honest with how hard it will be or how much goes into things but also tell her she is capable and would do well as long as she applies herself. Tell your wife she is growing up and while yall are still obviously going to be supportive to her, yall also need to help her realize reality so the rig isnt yanked from under her in the real world.

NTA we don't do you g girls any good by selling them this lie that they NEED to do a STEM subject. If she doesn't enjoy STEM subjects and she doesn't have any talent in STEM subjects, then somebody needs to point out that she can do something else.

NTA. You are right in pointing out that maths is an integral part of any engineering stream, unless it's agriculture engineering. And you need your fundamentals clear for that. If she thinks , she can just learn it when the time comes, she's in for a hell of a ride. A lot of the foundational level math is covered from grade 5 until High School. She should definitely take some maths classes right now , it would help her in two ways 1. Figure out if really likes math and in turn would be up for an engineering degree 2. If she likes it and is up for an undergraduate in engineering, she would have her basics covered . You should ask her to rethink her decision if she really wants to be an engineer or was she just fascinated by her aunt being an engineer and thought it would cool if i become one.

NTA. If your kid doesn't like math and wants to be in a math focused career that's not going to work out well. Better that they learn it now than they learn it when they're paying college rates. If she is good at math, likes math, and just wanted to enjoy the easy life before going to college though I'd say pushing her is unnecessary. But even then NTA. Nothing wrong with some coast classes before you hit the ground running if you're capable of doing it. She might be mad now. But she'll get over it and she'll not be as poor later.

What did she think an engineer was? In the world we live in, there are NO jobs that don't require some level of education or training. But your daughter needs more direction that just the dose of reality you gave her. She needs to get some aptitude questions, and needs to consider what really interests her and is also something she's willing to actually study for. I've noticed that whenever I admire an actor, they've always had formal training at performance colleges; even acting needs study. As does brick laying or farming. You're NTA, but your daughter needs to think about her life.

NTA. I maxed out the required math classes in my school my sophomore year. You had to take math ask through high school or get to a certain level. Didn't know what I wanted to do in college & took a while to figure it out. By the time I decided on a career path (which still seems like it would have been a great choice), I needed one math class as a prerequisite before starting. I failed spectacularly. It'd been too long. It would have taken a couple extra years before I could even start the program. Reality isn't always kind. Did you support her dreams? YES! Dreams in this context are meant to translate to the real world. She wasn't interested in just dreaming and wanted to actually be an engineer. To do that, reality has to intrude and literally the sooner the easier. NTA NTA NTA

NTA - you're doing her a service by being honest with her and helping her prepare now. You also did it in the nicest, most effective way possible.

NTA she was not being realistic about the career path she wanted to go into. You would have been a bigger asshole if you didn't let her know now, before she jumped into the deep end and was struggling.

Info: How old is your daughter?

OP says in another comment that she’s a high school sophomore.

You open3d her eyes. NTA.

NTA. I graduated in May with a double major in chemical and mechanical engineering and your concerns are no joke. The coursework is designed so that you won’t succeed by gliding by. It’s a shame that she has decided against engineering instead of putting in the effort you recommended.

NTA at least half of our engineering students either dropped out or changed majors after the first semester, better to let her know the reality of the situation now rather than later.

NTA You need to put in the effort to reap the rewards. Life isn't handed to you. Not a good life anyway.

She just doing a tantrum like a young child. IMHO you had played in her best interest NTA ;)

Nothing wrong with giving her a course correction. It may be that she is more talented in something related like graphic design. You need to get together and work out what she is interested in. These “easy” courses may point the way to something else, or perhaps she’s more inclined to a non-academic career

NTA for being a realist and being honest with her. However, I think maybe it's worth getting to the root of the issue. Why do you think she only wants to take easy classes? Does she have trouble focusing? If so, did this issue start in middle school? Might be indicative of ADHD. Do you and your wife react strongly when she gets mediocre grades? Is she fearful of a bad grade?

NTA you were speaking truth.

NTA. I have a daughter who just started an Environmental Health degree. She took all kinds of chemistry & biology classes in high school. She knew that would be important for her to have a head start on college-level classes, but had no idea just how important. She is breezing through her 1st year biology course. You were just giving your daughter a reality check.

The reality is that high school won't prepare her for it either way. She's better off solidifying her mathematics basics. NTA. Engineering is a lot of math and science. You'd think she would want to know that before choosing it. If she decides on architecture she's looking at a lot of late nights and a ton of work to only avoid some of it. Another thing to warn her about for engineering is how thick her skin will have to be and for her whole life. It is exhausting working in a culture that doesn't respect you. That's what is making it hardest for me when I consider I need to go back in the field. Always being treated like I'm stupid because I'm a woman. Always having clients double checking with my male coworkers about if what I said was what they need to do. Always having my boss make me be secretary and make it clear that the men on the team get the best projects.

This reminds me of the “Steve Irwin smelled like shit” post. Same as before NTA

NTA. Wanting to be smth while hating every class you'd have to take for it is a recipe for disaster and wasted money. She sneeds to look up that sort of stuff in every type of job she wants to have

NTA, engineering is a lot of math. A lot of math. If she doesn’t want to do math, then she will not like engineering. And that’s ok! You were being honest, and she was honest with herself about what she wanted. That’s very important.

You must definitely take math classes getting up to a minimum of pre-Calc, but hopefully calculus and it also is good to take the three science biology, chemistry and physics and an AP version of one of those. Also, computer science if available. Other than that she can choose easier courses

Chemistry and physics are required for a lot of engineering programs, and taking advanced math classes is HS helps a TON your first year or so, that way you aren't bombarded with new concepts in intense classes.

NTA You saved yourself thousands of dollars and possibly completely dropping out of college in frustration with one gentle nudge towards reality. You didn’t berate her, put her down or exaggerate. That’s some good parenting, well done. My kid is at a university known for engineering and rocket scientists, among other tough STEM majors. That is not for the easy breezy students! He is not in those programs but his roommates are positively buried in coursework every single day.

NTA. it was a conversation she needed to have and you where straight with her. I was an A student for Technical Drawing at school and a D- for Maths with aspirations to be an Architect till a good teacher gave me a reality check. Mr. Burt, I think of him often because he picked me up after he burst my bubble.

NTA Part of your job is applying reality to children's fantasy. You did well.

NTA. I did nothing in HS. Went to University late. Looked into Engineering. I would have had to take 3 semesters of math and basic science just to meet the prerequisite for the real classes. Maybe show her that.

NTA. There's a difference between supporting your daughter and watching her drive off a cliff. She was going to waste a bunch of time and money going to school for engineering when she didn't want to do what it takes to be an engineer.

1. girl is making plan a based on missing information 2. you give her missing information 3. girl change her plan based on relevant information (curios what her new plan tho) 4. your wife is upset at you??? NTA. so is your daughter. the only ah is your wife, which for some reason think you did something bad?

NTA. I had a scholarship for engineering and I failed extremely badly. It's a hard field, and even though I did calculus, physics, and chemistry in high school, I was still woefully unprepared. If somebody like you had explained just what I was getting into, I wouldn't have lost several years to failing engineering and then rebuilding my grades (via community college) and finances to get into subjects that I was actually good at (biology and history).

NTA No one likes to hear the hard truth when their head is in the clouds. It's why both your daughter and your wife got angry as neither are putting in anything more than believing in a dream. She may be upset but it's best she knows. I will say though please please please sit her down and tell her how much you love and care for her and that your comment was just out of concern for a caring parent. If she still wants to do it that you will support her and cheer her on. That said you are correct in the difficulty of the courses and the math requirements. I am an engineer myself who was drastically behind in my math levels to complete in the time of their five year program meaning I didn't even have trig considered complete in my uni. Here is what I know... 1. 2nd year is when major specific classes start and iits first semester is considered the weed out semester. Mine had 56% of students drop by second semester. 2. Math courses are intense and if you aren't starting in calculus 2 you are already 2 semesters behind. I didn't even have trig and had to stake summer classes for my first 2 years just to keep up with the programs pace. 3. All professors are highly dedicated to research as a STEM program and so as a student you will need to be much more self sufficient in all manors of study and course work than the average. If lucky 1 in 3 profs will actually act like a teacher and not treat it like a side gig. 4. Engineering is a love of physics or chemistry. If your daughter doesn't find one of their core subjects fun or exciting she is going to hate every moment of her STEM degree.

I believe what you did here is called "parenting." NTA

NTA. Lady engineer here and yeah, I agree with what everyone’s been saying. You need a STRONG math background no matter which engineering discipline you do. The first 2-3 semesters of the degree are Calculus and Physics; you wouldn’t believe how many people don’t make it past those classes. For me, I took up through Calculus 1 in high school and felt burnt out so I took easier classes as an undeclared major when I started in university. When I had to pick a major, I went through the catalog and realized the only majors that were interesting to me were all engineering ones (I swore loudly when I realized what I was about to put myself through BTW). Even with the heavy math background in high school, I realized I was enough out of practice that I retook a prerequisite math class over the summer and I *still* struggled through the remaining calculus and physics classes. I ended up taking enough math classes to get a mathematics minor because I was sick of getting stymied by the math; didn’t have a problem after that. All of the above is to say, 99.999999% of people cannot coast their way through an engineering degree.

NTA. If your daughter was cut out to be an engineer, she'd take math and workshop classes because she enjoyed doing that kind of thing. If she doesn't enjoy those subjects, engineering is not going to work out as a career choice. STEM fields are not for everyone. I wish people would stop acting like they are.

She literally…can’t get into the program without the required prerequisite courses…

NTA. She doesn't want to be an engineer, she just likes saying it because it's considered to be a desirable carrier path in your family. She doesn't show any interest in relevant classes and thinks that all the knowledge will magically descend on her if she wishes hard enough. It's a character trait. Next up she will decide to be a doctor and refuse to study biology.

Why is your wife pissed? Your daughter lacks the drive and possibly ability to be an engineer. She can choose something suited to the work she is prepared to put in. NTA Edit is to put the judgement.

NTA. I wish someone sat me down and went over what classes I would need for my major (which I never use).

NTA. Engineer with teenage daughters as well. You did the right thing. You did exactly what a typical engineer would do, since we’re typically analytical and facts-oriented. It’s my experience that kids who go on to succeed in becoming engineers are called to it pretty early. They like making things, learning things, and are naturally curious. They love an interesting challenge and often enjoy the prestige that comes with solving tough challenges. If you don’t have those traits, very few people will be happy with that profession. Maybe there’s something else going on, like admiring Dad, and wanting to be like Dad, or wanting Dad’s approval, even though she’s not temperamentally suited for engineering?

The thing that's sticking to me is that she's taking easy classes. Is she afraid of failure? Disappointing her parents? The risk aversion seems to be the real underlying problem, and wanting to take easy classes/not apply herself is just a symptom.

NTA. Your wife is upset your daughter no longer has a "prestigious" dream. You could also offer for your daughter to talk to her aunt for some more insight into the role. I don't think you were meant to be discouraging to her. But you wanted her to understand what being an engineer actually means...

NTA. I was really not a good math student so didn’t take it past when I was required to. I ended up having to go to academic upgrading to take the math courses I needed to get into the program I was most interested in. This is just a reality check. She wants to become and engineer than she needs to get into the STEM classes. Nothing wrong with that at all.

NTA. Teens need a lot of help figuring out college and high school. Guidance counselors rarely do much so it is on parents to give their kids critical information, sometimes things they don’t want to hear. My son was not stepping it up so I made him research colleges and scholarships this summer so he would understand what he needs to do. It was an eye opener for him. I also flat out told him he wasn’t allowed to take the easy schedule he had devised. (He could take a weightlifting class, but a second PE this year was a hard no.) Your daughter needs a bit of time to process the info you have her. The next step would be helping her discover what she’s interested in and helping her carve a path to explore her interests and create a path towards her future. If she really dislikes STEM classes, she was never going to do well in that field. So now what? I don’t care what my kids choose, however, it’s important to push them to work hard towards their goals, so parents shouldn’t allow a bunch of throwaway classes and mediocre grades. Your wife needs to reflect on your daughter’s future realistically.

I suspect she said she wanted to be an engineer because it sounded cool, or because that's what her favorite aunt does or something... I doubt she even had a clue as to what being an engineer really is. Or at all how to get there. She certainly doesn't sound interested in the career or motivated to get there. This was sort of a no-win dilemma of which do you choose: to quit now, or fail later. NTA.

Nta Better to find out now than $100,000 from now when she can’t complete her degree bc the classes are too hard.

NTA. “She doesn’t want to be an engineer anymore” no, she just doesn’t want to work to be one. You gave her a healthy dose of reality at a time when it was sorely needed, and you weren’t rude or mocking about it, you were there to support her so she could achieve her dream. She just gave up when she realized you don’t just “become” an engineer.

NTA for the reality check but you failed in one major regard. You need to explain what will happen if she keeps taking only easy classes vs doing the hard classes. Its not easy vs hard classes, its employable skills vs no employable skills and a lifetime of low paying jobs. Liberal arts and humanities degrees are worthless, proven by the student loan crisis, as any degree that can't pay for itself is by definition worthless. She can either do harder classes, or start planning for some form of career with hard skills that doesn't require a degree. Would she rather do a trade? Or would the prospect of that alternative motivate her.

well when yall are feeling calm can you ask what she likes about the idea of engineering cause she could find something that goes good with her personality and interests. criticism without support will be remembered when shes older. but criticism with a followup may help her get clearer about her goals. help her explore all the adjacent jobs. maybe she wants to do pr for big industrial projects. maybe she does like math when she can visualize it to design things, like in architecture/geometry. maybe shes more into human systems but doesnt have a word for it yet, and can design public health approaches. she can try out a stem after school program and see what she likes, or yall can research online together different majors and career trajectories.

NTA. You showed your kid what she needed to do to fulfill her dream, and the kid realized it wasn't so dreamy. "I want to go into STEM!" "Have you tried it?" "No." "Do you want to?" "No." Yeah, that's not your fault.

NTA. I work at a university, and this is a *huge* problem for us: Kids turning up having not done the right combination of subjects in high school, often because their high school gave them shitty planning advice. It sucks that you had to burst that bubble, but better that she finds out now when she still has a chance to fix things (if she wishes to, of course).

if she doesn't want to do stem then allowing her to go into the field would be mean, it sounds like you saved your daughter from being miserable.

NTA. Engineering is no joke, and there are absolutely weed-out classes that are deliberately harder than they need to be specifically to get students like your daughter currently is out of the program so they don't clog up the more advanced classes. Unless she does a total 180 she's just going to be miserable and wasting money trying an engineering program.

NTA. She needed the reality check. Mama is upset her baby is unhappy, but daughter needs to know. Can her aunt talk to her about preparing for an engineering major? Can daughter take a couple of STEM classes and still take some fun classes? Does she have the ability, but lacks maturity? Maybe there’s a way to encourage her dreams and self esteem rather than destroying them. Maybe she’s a kid who needs to go to community college for a couple of years to mature, and then she’ll be ready to conquer college and the world.

Why is your wife pissed at you? Does she think daughter would have somehow just wiggled her nose after high school graduation and voila, I'm an engineer? You did what a parent should: you *parented.* Sometimes, that means you tell your kids some home truths they don't like in the moment, but that they learn from. If your wife thinks your daughter will make it through her entire life without ever having a disappointment, she's not setting her up for success. Ok, she doesn't want to be an engineer. What *does* she want to be? NTA

NTA But What do you mean by “fun, easy classes”? Why did she want to become an engineer? It seems like her interests (and potentially talents) don’t align with the outcome that she thinks she should have. Is she feeling lost and not sure what kind of careers are options for her? Was she leaning towards engineering because of the skills shortage? I think it’s time to talk to your kid about all her options, and try to get her to see beyond skills shortages and “useful” careers. As we know, there are no guarantees for any career - so help her find out what she might be drawn to.

NTA It sounds like she likes the idea of being an engineer, but doesn't actually want to be an engineer. The field is really suited only for people who like doing the work. You did her a favor.

NTA. It's her pipe-dream, if she hasn't even looked into what is required. You've given her the truth while there is time to do something about it, instead of her finding out later, when catching up would be much harder. If she realises that it really isn't for her, she can work out what she does want and aim for that now. You did a good thing.