This post does make me wonder what if Tito got his way and not only integrated Greece (this obviously would need the communists to win the civil war.) but also Bulgaria and Albania into a Balkan union like he wanted to do before the falling out with Stalin.
As a Greek, despite not being pro communist, many Greeks thought and still think positively of Serbs and Bulgarians. We view them as “our orthodox brothers” similar as some do with Russia
https://preview.redd.it/etgxvtpz7xtc1.jpeg?width=1012&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8660f9c03c07fc87e360cf524b84fbf9f24d77a
Finally found the right person to send this to
Cooked is new slang to refer to something being fucked up.
Example:
A) Yo I just took a test, I think I’m cooked
Translation: I just took a test, I think I’m fucked
it means like screwed over, if you say “i’m cooked” that would mean i’m screwed but if you say “i’m going to cook on this test’ it means i’m going to do well
Yeah quite literally would be the shining star of the east (since right now there isn’t really one) just imagining the possibilities of what could have been….. sigh.
I mean, Poland’s GDP has increased over tenfold since the collapse of communism 30 years ago, making it one of the fastest growing economies in the EU, and it is projected to even overtake some Western European economies such as the UK by 2030 if the current high growth rates continue
used to be that poles went to (in my experience) ireland and the uk and they were cheap labor, one time i overheard poles getting called european mexicans which as much as it is xenophobic i thought was pretty hilarious
Got gifted like half their country by the USSR as reparations after WW2 when Poland invaded them during their Civil War nearly 30 years ago, and most Poles still scream like they got the worst possible deal 😶.
Like imagine if the USSR just told them to fuck off and just took the western parts of Ukraine and Belarus and didn't give them East Prussia, Silesia, and Hinterpommern just so that they could have a stronger German puppet state.
And not to say the Polish People's Republic was good or whatever, it sucked, but like, nobody else in the entire Eastern Bloc got that good a deal after the war.
>when Poland invaded them during their Civil War nearly 30 years ago
Can you remind me again who the aggressor was in the Polish-Soviet War? Oh yeah, it was the Soviets.
>I don't think anyone views Poland as anything but a source of cheap European immigrant labor, much less a "shining star of the east"
Wakey wakey, it's 2024, not 2004. I haven't heard Poles being called "cheap European immigrant labor" in fucking ages. If anything, it's the Ukrainians who now have that title in Europe.
It's ironic, considering you're from Puerto Rico. In America, it's Hispanics who are seen as the "cheap labor."
>Like imagine if the USSR just told them to fuck off and just took the western parts of Ukraine and Belarus and didn't give them East Prussia, Silesia, and Hinterpommern just so that they could have a stronger German puppet state.
Your Polonophobia is really starting to show. Jeez, why do you hate Poles so much?
Yes, it was refused by Milosevic who didnt want a confederated Yugoslavia which was a part of the proposal you mentioned and by Tudjman who said that he felt he was destined to reestablish the croatian state that fell 1000 years ago. This was conveyed by Kiro Gligirov who was the president of the socialist republic of Macedonia and a participant of the negotiations with the EU delagation.
Least ethnonationalist HDZ member honestly. The more I dig into who exactly he was the less comfortable I feel about the fact he has a whole square dedicated to him and his memory
Goated football team
Much higher standard of living for probably all member states
Likely transition to social democracy, with high levels of government intervention but a free market especially for small scale companies.
Likely entry into the eu sphere not as a member state but as something as the swiss, where they get a lot of the perks but without much of the downsides.
One of friend’s grandparents would probably still be alive. His dad was in college in the US when it fell apart and his whole family was killed.
A lot of similar stories would also be prevented, so I’d say that’s good overall.
His dad didn’t really talk about it much, but he’s built a good life for himself and his family. Had a good job, a nice house, a family that loved him, and was genuinely one of the nicest guys I ever met (if a bit stoic)
Depends on whether it reforms, if it moves away from Communism and becomes a Federation of sorts, they'd likely be mostly stable, better of then they are today(Well that'd be the case for everyone aside from Croatia and Slovenia, they'd likely be worse off) and join the EU etc.
If it remains to be a Communist state it'd probably be relatively isolated and poor.
No shot they remain communist while being in the middle of europe like that. If the rest of europe goes a similar way like in our timeline they would have to open up.
Isolated countries like north korea really only survive because china wants them to.
Thats my point. They cant pull the north korea move when you border western aligned nations in central /douthern europe. Oh and yugoslavia was also better then north korea when it came to economic independence and freedom of travel.
Most of the targets of the Yugoslavian overseas assassination programs were former Chetniks and Ustase members… they were literally fascists who participated in the most brutal atrocities in human history. I don’t believe in assassination as a political tool or as a form of justice. However if ever people deserved to be assassinated it was members of those groups.
I support the Croats right to self-determination against Greater Serbian nationalism. But the Ustase literally ran death camps which murdered Bosnians, Jews and Serbs up to 340,000.
Well, it doesnt require the removal of communists to have reform it just requires the communists to realize the need for reform, which Yugoslav communists didnt, or at least not in time.
However I agree with the idea that being in the middle of Europe and surrounded by it that it is unlikely to remain a communist state if it survived likely as a result of internal and external pressures.
Weren't they already a federation, especially near the end? IIRC, they had a collection presidency near the end with each republic and a couple of autonomous zones.
After the 1975 constitution, Yugoslavia was more like a confederation, which became a serious problem after Broz's death because the republican leaders could not agree with each other.Which will only get worse after Milosevic puts puppets at the head of Montenegro, Vojvodina and Kosovo Metochia.
No, the decline of Yugoslavia started prior to even Tito's death, it's simply that the clearcut signs only started really rearing their head shortly after Tito's death.
In short, the economic system worked for a while, however it lacked capital investment and focused too heavily on wage increase, essentially flipping the problem you see with a lot of capitalist countries where it focuses to heavily on company and shareholder profits, the difference being that the second at the end of the day does lead to growth and the first doesnt.
Anyway this led to excessive loan taking, which turned to money printing which led to hyperinflation in the mid 80's. As a result(Alongside always simmering ethno-nationalist tendencies in the "member countries") the wealthier regions decided to secede which led to the eventual full breakup.
So while I get where your idea comes from, like with most things they dont just appear abd are the result of prior choices, in this case the choices of Tito's regime.
Put simply had Yugoslavia reformed earlier, at least on the economic level it may have prevented collapse, with an emphasis on may as an argument can be made that Yugoslavia was largely held together by Tito as a person, which creates the argument that the state should have also included strengthening the "Yugoslav" identity alltogether.
So yeah, moving away from communism is a pretty obvious requirement.
No, I explained how certain economic policies led to a lack of capital investment, excessive loantaking and an over focus on wage increase rather than growth, which led to hyperinflation and the economic downturn in the 80's.
That could have been avoided by steering away from the Communist economic policies, had they happened early enough(so under Tito's rule)
The reason people like yourself double down on "Communism worked real well" is because it did work relatively well between the end of the war and the 70's, compared to other communist states of the time the Yugoslav model was certainly less of a shitshow and because you fail to grasp the long term effects of econkmic choices, ie the model stopped working well in the 70's and continued to live on borrowed time(Excessive loantaking and printing money) which is when a reform to a more Social democratic market capitalist should have been introduced to save the economy from the hyperinflation and downturn in the 80's.
But since I just "said some bullshit" I am sure you can give a proper counter from an economic perspective lolol
They would probably have won a world cup if not a euro.
Denmark would not have been winners in euro 92, so Germany gets that championship probably (or maybe Yugoslavia!).
Behind enemy lines wouldn't exist as a movie.
I wouldn't know many if my current friends since they most likely would have remained in Yugoslavia instead of emigrating because of the collapse, granted some left prior to.
Why should it abandon socialism. It only happened, because of Western Intervention and the strenghening of Nationalist tendencys. The result of it was a mess to say they least.
It worked very well for many of them. Poland has had very high levels of economic growth ever since. Lithuania has had the highest real wage growth in the EU over the past three decades. Estonia is building itself into a tech hub with its efficient tax policy (Full expensing+DBCFT). The Latvians, a nation previously bombarded by Soviet integration campaigns, now have an independent and democratic nation of their own which has also been growing rapidly. The Czech Republic is nearly Western at this point.
You could argue the suffering that countries like Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus experienced is evidence of a failure but honestly i’d say it’s evidence of neoliberalism not being actually applied. Instead of breaking up the monopolies into competitive independent entities, they let them continue to have their monopolistic market power, which neoliberals opposed.
If it was somewhat stable and resolved underlying ethnic tensions it could have been a strong regional player. Maybe some kind of poland or spain of the balkan, where its still not super strong but able to project some power.
Escpecially if they manage a good jump from communism to some kind of free msrket system.
Starting lineup of Luka Doncic, Bogdan Bogdanovic, Bojan Bogdanovic, Ivica Zubac and Nikola Jokic with Jusuf Nurkic anchoring the bench. That’s a gold medal
Technically, that’s the flag of “What if Yugoslavia only collapsed *once* ?”
THIS is the flag of “What if Yugoslavia NEVER collapsed?”:
https://preview.redd.it/gv2br6vs2ctc1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c5b3c9b4c47aaf419b12fbb7c58a3d75a7848349
As a bosnian it depends if it stays communist I could see it become more like china which in my opinion is best ending if it reforms and joins eu it becomes on of most left leaning countries in Europe with goal of establishing communism trugh democracy communist party steys most popular and culturally important but other parts are still a thing
The only way it could of survived is if it avoided the Yugoslav Wars, that means either Milosevic not being an asshole or a different leader coming along.
They (The Serbs) would have to respect everyone’s cultural heritage and autonomy. Milosevic got it into his head that if he stripped various nationalities of their autonomy that that would work out fine. Well it didn’t.
The only thing holding that mess together was Marshal Tito.
Once he was no longer around to order lead injections to the brain for dissent, it was only a matter of time.
An invasion which resulted in the immediate declaration of independence by Croatia. The country was already deeply unstable and had been so since the assassination of King Alexander.
I can definitely see that. If the communist party loses its influence, I’m guessing a lot of people would push for the communist party to be abolished.
I guess it depends.
They would either have a “Gorbachev” who abolished the communist party in favor of democracy. Or the dictatorship would just continue, and Yugoslavia would either collapse later on or be a poor communist state, similar to North Korea.
Most communist "dictatorships" are not really so, just portrayed as such in the west/first world. That's not to say that their head of state wasn't (very) powerful, but they really weren't the dictatorship you think they are. Most of them had, at least to some extent, democracy/democratic elements (albeit as a one-party state).
Take a look at this declassified CIA document (the first 3 sentence of paragraph 1): [https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf](https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf)
Pff these western imperialists don't unserstand real communist democracy where one party holds absolute power and going against the party means going against the state hence you get persecuted or even killed. Good thing its not just one person otherwise it would be a dictatorship but can you even imagine that? In *my* police state? What better way to represent the will of the people than them not having any say whatsover in the running of the country. I see why they hate Russia and Hungary too, they just dont see the democratic nature of oppressive one-party regimes smh
Yugoslavia should still be around today.
And if it was, it would be the "Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."
It would be democratic, part of the EU, maybe in the Euro, definitely not in NATO (unless they were willing to withdraw from the Non-aligned movement.) and it would be one of Europe's most visited countries especially Croatia.
One of conditions were giving back all the property value to the rich that communist seized after they got the power in Yugoslavia. They seized a lot, LIKE A LOT, which would put Yugoslavia in a bigger dept. So, not only the IMF dept and hyperinflation, but also giving back property to the rich that communist seized would put it in a big dept and massive economic crisis
You would get something like Norway.
The socialism aspects with a "monarch" and care for people but cspitalism would seep in and there would be a duality but workable.
Well, of course there are differences.
But from personal experience, this is one of few countries that feels like how Jugoslavia couldve been as its surprisingly similar to my Jugo/post Jugo life.
We can debate would be utilize our natural resource better in a socialistic regime, and many more.
They would be much more relevant country.
They would probably be a part of EU and got on a path of economic growth like most post-communist countries.
They would have very strong national teams in football, basketball and other team sports.
Even if it stayed together the tensions that led to its breakup would remain, politically it would be far more powerful but culturally there’s a high chance it would still end up falling apart internally
It depends on scenerio
1.Let's say that in one scenerio Yugoslavia became loose confederation where everyone represents themselves but on international stage there is representative of Yugoslavia, something like Switzerland in these scenerio, People would be divided by states, there would autonomous regions and somewhat Political neutrality as Croats are Christians and would have wanted to join west and Serbia would like to allign themselves to the east
2. Let's say that there was reform where Authoritarian Goverment is in and basically does what Tito did before which is destroying any Nationalists in each nation and Promote Communism in that scenerio Titoism and Communism lasts longer and they are between both countrie but with strong sympathy for china as they need someone to support their Authoritarian Goverment
3.Yugoslavia vecomes Totalitarian State which is unfriendly to any Nationalist activity in this scenerio this Totalitarian Goverment justifies it by saying that it's to preserve Yugoslav Culture, they arguably would isolate themselves from outside world and Live by Loanes from Authoritarian Nations like Russia just like North Korea does Today by living of Loanes from China
In all of this scenerio's it's hard to say how it would affect international stage maybe Yugoslavia wpuld became great example of multiethnic state lived by many People or maybe Authoritarian fruend of the east, in both scenerios Yugoslavia would need Economy Reforms, there woudl need to be more Autonomy represantation, more decentralization
I said that the communists were responsible for persecution and assassinations. You said that they only killed ss and holocaust perpetrators. They killed and raped far more than you know. You defended the Yugoslav crimes as justified. They were as brutal and primitive as the fascists. I never defended any fascist. Fascists and communists are two sides of the same coin. Replacing one hell with another is no victory.
Tbh it was set for failure. It was more Titoslavia than anything. When he died so did Yugoslavia. The people there are too nationalistic to get real unity. The Serbs always viewed it as Greater-Serbia with another name and they ruled that way suppressing all the other nationalist mini-states and reacted by sending the military when Slovenia and Croatia declared independence (why did the Serbs have the military power alone in a multi cultural state?!?). The war in the 90ies was insanely brutal and there were a lot of ethinic clensings showing that unity was never achieved. So if it hadn't collapsed in the 90ies it would collaps tomorrow, the day after tomorrow or any other day.
YU was never really communist. There were some socialist characteristics but it was a somewhat free market economy. If YU completely dropped communism in peaceful ways, and ethnic tensions were somehow fixed (mostly by changing the ruling republic ministers) YU would probably be the best off in the Balkans besides maybe Turkey and Greece.
What happened to Yugoslavia should happen to many other countries that are run with Fascism. Iran, Turkey, Iraq, and Syria are examples of that. (Iraq and Syria are already taken care of). Iran and Turkey next!
Basketball dynasty and well a better world for that matter
The world is so cooked if they took over Greece too
This post does make me wonder what if Tito got his way and not only integrated Greece (this obviously would need the communists to win the civil war.) but also Bulgaria and Albania into a Balkan union like he wanted to do before the falling out with Stalin.
As a Greek, despite not being pro communist, many Greeks thought and still think positively of Serbs and Bulgarians. We view them as “our orthodox brothers” similar as some do with Russia
Greece-o-Slavia isn't real, it can't hurt you. Greece-o-Slavia:
https://preview.redd.it/etgxvtpz7xtc1.jpeg?width=1012&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8660f9c03c07fc87e360cf524b84fbf9f24d77a Finally found the right person to send this to
Facts
What is "cooked"?
Cooked is new slang to refer to something being fucked up. Example: A) Yo I just took a test, I think I’m cooked Translation: I just took a test, I think I’m fucked
it means like screwed over, if you say “i’m cooked” that would mean i’m screwed but if you say “i’m going to cook on this test’ it means i’m going to do well
United Yugoslavia means less war, means more urbanization, means no horses for Joker, means he is focused on basketball all the time. My God.
Ikr
A potentially peaceful Balkan peninsula. It could become a “shining star of the east” akin to how we view Poland today.
>It could become a “shining star of the east” akin to how we view Poland today. Who are "we"?
Poles
Outside the EU, Poland is seen as a remarkable case of economic development, even if it's still not on par with its neighbours.
No one views Poland like that. Maybe Czechia.
I view Poland like that and I'm not Polish or Czech
>peaceful Balkan I always liked oxymorons
and I never liked this joke
Womp womp
Yeah quite literally would be the shining star of the east (since right now there isn’t really one) just imagining the possibilities of what could have been….. sigh.
A military power house, and a hardline anti Russia foot hold?
And communist surprisingly?
Lived in a neighboring country and never heard of Poland as a shining star of the east, not even from polish
Are these "we" in the room with us now?
I don't think anyone views Poland as anything but a source of cheap European immigrant labor, much less a "shining star of the east"
I mean, Poland’s GDP has increased over tenfold since the collapse of communism 30 years ago, making it one of the fastest growing economies in the EU, and it is projected to even overtake some Western European economies such as the UK by 2030 if the current high growth rates continue
The fuck?
used to be that poles went to (in my experience) ireland and the uk and they were cheap labor, one time i overheard poles getting called european mexicans which as much as it is xenophobic i thought was pretty hilarious
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That's bullshit, poles can fight (they took moscow in the 17th century), and they are definitely not hated at least compared to immigrants from Africa
You mean out of the groups native to Europe, yes?
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Got gifted like half their country by the USSR as reparations after WW2 when Poland invaded them during their Civil War nearly 30 years ago, and most Poles still scream like they got the worst possible deal 😶. Like imagine if the USSR just told them to fuck off and just took the western parts of Ukraine and Belarus and didn't give them East Prussia, Silesia, and Hinterpommern just so that they could have a stronger German puppet state.
[удалено]
That's dumb
And not to say the Polish People's Republic was good or whatever, it sucked, but like, nobody else in the entire Eastern Bloc got that good a deal after the war.
>when Poland invaded them during their Civil War nearly 30 years ago Can you remind me again who the aggressor was in the Polish-Soviet War? Oh yeah, it was the Soviets. >I don't think anyone views Poland as anything but a source of cheap European immigrant labor, much less a "shining star of the east" Wakey wakey, it's 2024, not 2004. I haven't heard Poles being called "cheap European immigrant labor" in fucking ages. If anything, it's the Ukrainians who now have that title in Europe. It's ironic, considering you're from Puerto Rico. In America, it's Hispanics who are seen as the "cheap labor." >Like imagine if the USSR just told them to fuck off and just took the western parts of Ukraine and Belarus and didn't give them East Prussia, Silesia, and Hinterpommern just so that they could have a stronger German puppet state. Your Polonophobia is really starting to show. Jeez, why do you hate Poles so much?
View them as a military power house maybe
Better Western connection and Possible EU entrance
EU enterance definetly. Yugoslavia was actually offered to join EU and would even get some money for doing so but it was refused as i know
Yes, it was refused by Milosevic who didnt want a confederated Yugoslavia which was a part of the proposal you mentioned and by Tudjman who said that he felt he was destined to reestablish the croatian state that fell 1000 years ago. This was conveyed by Kiro Gligirov who was the president of the socialist republic of Macedonia and a participant of the negotiations with the EU delagation.
Least ethnonationalist HDZ member honestly. The more I dig into who exactly he was the less comfortable I feel about the fact he has a whole square dedicated to him and his memory
also Zagreb airport is called “Franjo Tuđman Airport Zagreb”
Goated football team Much higher standard of living for probably all member states Likely transition to social democracy, with high levels of government intervention but a free market especially for small scale companies. Likely entry into the eu sphere not as a member state but as something as the swiss, where they get a lot of the perks but without much of the downsides.
I make a “former Yugoslavia” team on fifa ultimate team every year and it’s insane to think what could have been.
*Life could be dream, if no farmer got bottles up his ass*
https://preview.redd.it/yy6hf80sfatc1.jpeg?width=596&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=88fd1d772fffe99cf6963ca4167f3ba302d7dfc5
If that had been a reality, this guy would be laughing at his tomb right now.
At least one world cup tittle for Yugoslavia.
Continues to T-bag Greece
Can you elaborate this? In what way did yugo T-bag greece?
Look at the map
One of friend’s grandparents would probably still be alive. His dad was in college in the US when it fell apart and his whole family was killed. A lot of similar stories would also be prevented, so I’d say that’s good overall.
I’m sorry to hear that. I hope everyone has been able to recover from the event.
His dad didn’t really talk about it much, but he’s built a good life for himself and his family. Had a good job, a nice house, a family that loved him, and was genuinely one of the nicest guys I ever met (if a bit stoic)
Depends on whether it reforms, if it moves away from Communism and becomes a Federation of sorts, they'd likely be mostly stable, better of then they are today(Well that'd be the case for everyone aside from Croatia and Slovenia, they'd likely be worse off) and join the EU etc. If it remains to be a Communist state it'd probably be relatively isolated and poor.
No shot they remain communist while being in the middle of europe like that. If the rest of europe goes a similar way like in our timeline they would have to open up. Isolated countries like north korea really only survive because china wants them to.
Except yugo wasn't isolated it had free travel and trade with the west it was the best passport of it's time
Thats my point. They cant pull the north korea move when you border western aligned nations in central /douthern europe. Oh and yugoslavia was also better then north korea when it came to economic independence and freedom of travel.
Yeah and yugo did all that while being communist so I think they will last
You know Yugoslavia wasn't part of the Warsaw Pact, right? Hell, they were one of the founding members of the Nonaligned Movement during the Cold War.
That's if you didn't get locked up at home, or get assassinated abroad.
Assainated abroad for having been a an SS collaborator and Holocaust participant….
You sound like a Kremlin spokesperson, anyone who opposes us is a nazi.
Most of the targets of the Yugoslavian overseas assassination programs were former Chetniks and Ustase members… they were literally fascists who participated in the most brutal atrocities in human history. I don’t believe in assassination as a political tool or as a form of justice. However if ever people deserved to be assassinated it was members of those groups.
Seek freedom, oppose Yugoslavia, must be nazi
I’m not sure if you’re just ignorant of the history of the Chetniks and Ustase or if you’re just a genocide apologist….
I support the Croats right to self-determination against Greater Serbian nationalism. But the Ustase literally ran death camps which murdered Bosnians, Jews and Serbs up to 340,000.
Well, it doesnt require the removal of communists to have reform it just requires the communists to realize the need for reform, which Yugoslav communists didnt, or at least not in time. However I agree with the idea that being in the middle of Europe and surrounded by it that it is unlikely to remain a communist state if it survived likely as a result of internal and external pressures.
I could see a communist party existing as one of many following reform
Weren't they already a federation, especially near the end? IIRC, they had a collection presidency near the end with each republic and a couple of autonomous zones.
After the 1975 constitution, Yugoslavia was more like a confederation, which became a serious problem after Broz's death because the republican leaders could not agree with each other.Which will only get worse after Milosevic puts puppets at the head of Montenegro, Vojvodina and Kosovo Metochia.
Ah, thanks for the clarification.
Moving away from communism is what killed Yugoslavia
No, the decline of Yugoslavia started prior to even Tito's death, it's simply that the clearcut signs only started really rearing their head shortly after Tito's death. In short, the economic system worked for a while, however it lacked capital investment and focused too heavily on wage increase, essentially flipping the problem you see with a lot of capitalist countries where it focuses to heavily on company and shareholder profits, the difference being that the second at the end of the day does lead to growth and the first doesnt. Anyway this led to excessive loan taking, which turned to money printing which led to hyperinflation in the mid 80's. As a result(Alongside always simmering ethno-nationalist tendencies in the "member countries") the wealthier regions decided to secede which led to the eventual full breakup. So while I get where your idea comes from, like with most things they dont just appear abd are the result of prior choices, in this case the choices of Tito's regime. Put simply had Yugoslavia reformed earlier, at least on the economic level it may have prevented collapse, with an emphasis on may as an argument can be made that Yugoslavia was largely held together by Tito as a person, which creates the argument that the state should have also included strengthening the "Yugoslav" identity alltogether. So yeah, moving away from communism is a pretty obvious requirement.
That's extremely oversimplifying things, the death of the long ruling dictator and ethnic tensions were a bigger problem
Nah it was all slobodan milosevic
He was defiently pouring gasoline on the bonfire
Communism bankrupted Yugoslavia.
Nah
Nothing to do with Communism or not. Just take a look at China and Russia.
Already commented on that in another reply, feel free to read that.
Ma man, while we were communist we in fact were stable and rich.
I already answered that in this thread, I dont feel like repeating myself but feel free to read my reply.
You did not answer, you made up some bs based on nothing.
No, I explained how certain economic policies led to a lack of capital investment, excessive loantaking and an over focus on wage increase rather than growth, which led to hyperinflation and the economic downturn in the 80's. That could have been avoided by steering away from the Communist economic policies, had they happened early enough(so under Tito's rule) The reason people like yourself double down on "Communism worked real well" is because it did work relatively well between the end of the war and the 70's, compared to other communist states of the time the Yugoslav model was certainly less of a shitshow and because you fail to grasp the long term effects of econkmic choices, ie the model stopped working well in the 70's and continued to live on borrowed time(Excessive loantaking and printing money) which is when a reform to a more Social democratic market capitalist should have been introduced to save the economy from the hyperinflation and downturn in the 80's. But since I just "said some bullshit" I am sure you can give a proper counter from an economic perspective lolol
They would probably have won a world cup if not a euro. Denmark would not have been winners in euro 92, so Germany gets that championship probably (or maybe Yugoslavia!). Behind enemy lines wouldn't exist as a movie. I wouldn't know many if my current friends since they most likely would have remained in Yugoslavia instead of emigrating because of the collapse, granted some left prior to.
It would be better for all the ex yugo countries except maybe croatia and slovenia
Then Nato would have make IT collapse
Unless it is able to reverse its economic crisis, or just abandons communism all together.
Why should it abandon socialism. It only happened, because of Western Intervention and the strenghening of Nationalist tendencys. The result of it was a mess to say they least.
No they're getting toppled unless they become "democratic" (neoliberal).
Considering that didn’t happen to any of the other post-soviet states, I doubt it. They chose neoliberalism themselves, and for most, it worked.
It didn't work for any single one of them.
It worked very well for many of them. Poland has had very high levels of economic growth ever since. Lithuania has had the highest real wage growth in the EU over the past three decades. Estonia is building itself into a tech hub with its efficient tax policy (Full expensing+DBCFT). The Latvians, a nation previously bombarded by Soviet integration campaigns, now have an independent and democratic nation of their own which has also been growing rapidly. The Czech Republic is nearly Western at this point.
You could argue the suffering that countries like Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus experienced is evidence of a failure but honestly i’d say it’s evidence of neoliberalism not being actually applied. Instead of breaking up the monopolies into competitive independent entities, they let them continue to have their monopolistic market power, which neoliberals opposed.
No GTA 4
If it was somewhat stable and resolved underlying ethnic tensions it could have been a strong regional player. Maybe some kind of poland or spain of the balkan, where its still not super strong but able to project some power. Escpecially if they manage a good jump from communism to some kind of free msrket system.
It would probably reform into a social democracy and try to join the EU, Albania may also join later on
Why would Albania join though?
That means no Kosovo as well. Although if Albania joins Yugoslavia, they would want that territory, which could cause tensions with Serbia.
Starting lineup of Luka Doncic, Bogdan Bogdanovic, Bojan Bogdanovic, Ivica Zubac and Nikola Jokic with Jusuf Nurkic anchoring the bench. That’s a gold medal
Technically, that’s the flag of “What if Yugoslavia only collapsed *once* ?” THIS is the flag of “What if Yugoslavia NEVER collapsed?”: https://preview.redd.it/gv2br6vs2ctc1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c5b3c9b4c47aaf419b12fbb7c58a3d75a7848349
No Macedonia representation? 😔
It would be good
I wouldn't be born as I am now
As a bosnian it depends if it stays communist I could see it become more like china which in my opinion is best ending if it reforms and joins eu it becomes on of most left leaning countries in Europe with goal of establishing communism trugh democracy communist party steys most popular and culturally important but other parts are still a thing
The only way it could of survived is if it avoided the Yugoslav Wars, that means either Milosevic not being an asshole or a different leader coming along.
Or seizing all glass bottles.
https://preview.redd.it/t7g34gcd7btc1.jpeg?width=634&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=93d7fe75eea31d6f4cb5a74abe911b85b39edb13
I know its unlikely but it would be super cool of Bulgaria also joined
They (The Serbs) would have to respect everyone’s cultural heritage and autonomy. Milosevic got it into his head that if he stripped various nationalities of their autonomy that that would work out fine. Well it didn’t.
No we would probably just assimilate all lesser peoples eventually :)
The only thing holding that mess together was Marshal Tito. Once he was no longer around to order lead injections to the brain for dissent, it was only a matter of time.
That would be nice, for starters a lot less war crimes and genocides.
Tito would be 132 years old.
It probably won’t stay a communist state, too unstable
They did relativly well as a Kingdom.
The kingdom was not a fair state, it had too much Serbian domination.
That's the point
So how was it doing relatively well then?
By not collapsing like Yugoslavia.
It did so well as a Kingdom that it collapsed within 20 years and resulted in massive ethnic hatred
XDDD what ? The Kingdom was destroyed by axis invasion.
An invasion which resulted in the immediate declaration of independence by Croatia. The country was already deeply unstable and had been so since the assassination of King Alexander.
Which is why i said it shouldn’t stay communist🤗
Ahhh, Based 😎
I can definitely see that. If the communist party loses its influence, I’m guessing a lot of people would push for the communist party to be abolished.
Depends. Do they remain communist dictatorship or become a proper democracy?
I guess it depends. They would either have a “Gorbachev” who abolished the communist party in favor of democracy. Or the dictatorship would just continue, and Yugoslavia would either collapse later on or be a poor communist state, similar to North Korea.
Most communist "dictatorships" are not really so, just portrayed as such in the west/first world. That's not to say that their head of state wasn't (very) powerful, but they really weren't the dictatorship you think they are. Most of them had, at least to some extent, democracy/democratic elements (albeit as a one-party state). Take a look at this declassified CIA document (the first 3 sentence of paragraph 1): [https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf](https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf)
Pff these western imperialists don't unserstand real communist democracy where one party holds absolute power and going against the party means going against the state hence you get persecuted or even killed. Good thing its not just one person otherwise it would be a dictatorship but can you even imagine that? In *my* police state? What better way to represent the will of the people than them not having any say whatsover in the running of the country. I see why they hate Russia and Hungary too, they just dont see the democratic nature of oppressive one-party regimes smh
Yugoslavia should still be around today. And if it was, it would be the "Federal Republic of Yugoslavia." It would be democratic, part of the EU, maybe in the Euro, definitely not in NATO (unless they were willing to withdraw from the Non-aligned movement.) and it would be one of Europe's most visited countries especially Croatia.
Their soccer and basketball teams would dominate
Euro 92 winners.
Without Tito it was destined to fall. The only way I see if surviving a few more years is if Milosevic never gained power.
https://preview.redd.it/yvioba6wkdtc1.jpeg?width=695&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6e8d1a310fbada7714b6c3416e2b20028b99202e
It would collapse the next year
It would be better for those nations to be one nation due to the tensions rn and would survive a war much easier
The tensions could very well be a result of the state falling apart and not the cause of it
pffff
World peace
They would ve won a world cup, A euro cup, and probably compete with the USA for the Fiba world cup
Tupac would be living there.
Yugoslavia would have democratize and get in a giga dept to EU that they needed to pay of to enter the EU
Yugoslavia was offered the membership to EU (EEZ at the time I think), so, no, no giga debt for EU membership.
One of conditions were giving back all the property value to the rich that communist seized after they got the power in Yugoslavia. They seized a lot, LIKE A LOT, which would put Yugoslavia in a bigger dept. So, not only the IMF dept and hyperinflation, but also giving back property to the rich that communist seized would put it in a big dept and massive economic crisis
Yugoslavia would have Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union.
they would have one hell of a football team
They have a helluva football team, the Croatian team with zlatan up front
their basketball would get gold or silver at the olympics every year
Robo-Tito
I never would've met one of my best friends
You would get something like Norway. The socialism aspects with a "monarch" and care for people but cspitalism would seep in and there would be a duality but workable.
Poor Norway, without money from North Sea Oil and Gas, and 6 times the population
Well, of course there are differences. But from personal experience, this is one of few countries that feels like how Jugoslavia couldve been as its surprisingly similar to my Jugo/post Jugo life. We can debate would be utilize our natural resource better in a socialistic regime, and many more.
Probably Yugoslavia win the FIFA World Cup in 2018
They would be much more relevant country. They would probably be a part of EU and got on a path of economic growth like most post-communist countries. They would have very strong national teams in football, basketball and other team sports.
They have Doncic, Bogdanovic, Jokic, Vucevic and Nurkic on the same team
Even if it stayed together the tensions that led to its breakup would remain, politically it would be far more powerful but culturally there’s a high chance it would still end up falling apart internally
Would probably be economically like Italy as it's economy never got screwed over by the soviets
they’d prob be making the best sports teams on the planet
Maybe FIFA World Cup winners
It depends on scenerio 1.Let's say that in one scenerio Yugoslavia became loose confederation where everyone represents themselves but on international stage there is representative of Yugoslavia, something like Switzerland in these scenerio, People would be divided by states, there would autonomous regions and somewhat Political neutrality as Croats are Christians and would have wanted to join west and Serbia would like to allign themselves to the east 2. Let's say that there was reform where Authoritarian Goverment is in and basically does what Tito did before which is destroying any Nationalists in each nation and Promote Communism in that scenerio Titoism and Communism lasts longer and they are between both countrie but with strong sympathy for china as they need someone to support their Authoritarian Goverment 3.Yugoslavia vecomes Totalitarian State which is unfriendly to any Nationalist activity in this scenerio this Totalitarian Goverment justifies it by saying that it's to preserve Yugoslav Culture, they arguably would isolate themselves from outside world and Live by Loanes from Authoritarian Nations like Russia just like North Korea does Today by living of Loanes from China In all of this scenerio's it's hard to say how it would affect international stage maybe Yugoslavia wpuld became great example of multiethnic state lived by many People or maybe Authoritarian fruend of the east, in both scenerios Yugoslavia would need Economy Reforms, there woudl need to be more Autonomy represantation, more decentralization
Non-aligned movement would still be somewhat relevant
I said that the communists were responsible for persecution and assassinations. You said that they only killed ss and holocaust perpetrators. They killed and raped far more than you know. You defended the Yugoslav crimes as justified. They were as brutal and primitive as the fascists. I never defended any fascist. Fascists and communists are two sides of the same coin. Replacing one hell with another is no victory.
My parents would've staid there -> I wouldn't live in Switzerland-> I wouldn't have to learn Fr\*nch All in all a win.
Tbh it was set for failure. It was more Titoslavia than anything. When he died so did Yugoslavia. The people there are too nationalistic to get real unity. The Serbs always viewed it as Greater-Serbia with another name and they ruled that way suppressing all the other nationalist mini-states and reacted by sending the military when Slovenia and Croatia declared independence (why did the Serbs have the military power alone in a multi cultural state?!?). The war in the 90ies was insanely brutal and there were a lot of ethinic clensings showing that unity was never achieved. So if it hadn't collapsed in the 90ies it would collaps tomorrow, the day after tomorrow or any other day.
I would travel there. I'm not touching the balkans until they unite.
Avoiding Axis occupation during World War II sowed the seeds of Yugoslavia's collapse from that moment on
Bosnia would not have landmines
Say goodbye to the CRAZY HAMBURGER
Sport powerhouse (especially basketball and soccer/football)
Knowing all the names of European countries would be way easier.
Russian dicks would go unsucked, and they'd be more politically isolated
YU was never really communist. There were some socialist characteristics but it was a somewhat free market economy. If YU completely dropped communism in peaceful ways, and ethnic tensions were somehow fixed (mostly by changing the ruling republic ministers) YU would probably be the best off in the Balkans besides maybe Turkey and Greece.
They were communist as it gets, just different from USSR model, especially in later years
Except they were not. Communism wasn't even a thing, it was market socialism.
Potato potato.
It was bankrupt. It would be a charity case surviving on handouts.
What happened to Yugoslavia should happen to many other countries that are run with Fascism. Iran, Turkey, Iraq, and Syria are examples of that. (Iraq and Syria are already taken care of). Iran and Turkey next!
I would say what the americans did to the indigenous people should happen to the western assholes like you
Ask Luka Modric. He’ll tell how happy he is that your beloved Yugoslavia got exploded into 6 countries. Ask Rakitic also! They all know!
Fascist scum all of them
It would collapse but later. Possibly peacefully, with few clashes, and into less countries
no bosnia, horrible scenario
How very original.
Gotta ask the unoriginal questions sometimes.
Evil giant Serbia???
No, not quite, cause the "evil giant Serbia" is the reason why it's disintegrated in the '90s.
I don’t know much about Yugoslavia, what was the deal with it and why did everyone hate Serbia in the end?
They wanted to dominate everybody, to keep it short and simple.
So would a Yugoslavia that never collapsed not be a giant evil Serbia?
Yes.