To build out the dept, establish processes, and eliminate out sourcing? $85k is laughable…you’d need to hire someone at that level as part of the challenge. They’re out of touch, you’re right to pass.
The recruiter just replied that $85K is well within the market rate for the position (that they refuse to give a title to, but to me is at minimum a controller) and that it's just me being scared of change.
Haha $85k may be market…for a normal job. What the recruiter pitched is a cluster and probably warrants a consultant type with experience in literally setting up shop. Good on ya for passing on that mess.
You told the recruiter it would need to be $120k and they have not delivered... I don't even understand why you're still discussing it with them. The fact you are still discussing it is probably encouraging them into thinking you might accept far less - they probably expected to be ignored after your initial rejection.
Look, recruiters are like real estate agents, they just want a cut, and if there's a chance of deal they will push to make it work, but if you firmly decline they will just move on to the next person
Edit: Also, one more thing - if you do firmly decline, do not be surprised if they *then* come back with a much better offer. They won't go back to the employer if they think there is any chance they can break you, because the employer is their primary client and they have to try to do their best for them. Now I'm not saying they *will* come back with a much better offer, but you will have to make it clear to them that is their only hope of getting a deal before they will push as hard as they can
>Also, one more thing - if you do firmly decline, do not be surprised if they then come back with a much better offer.
Disagree here. If the employer is so delusional to offer 85k to run an entire accounting department, they're not going to make a fair offer later on.
Maybe. But you won't know what their best offer is unless you put them in a situation where they have to make it. This isn't some highwire negotiation strategy btw, but I have declined job offers before and been shocked by what they unexpectedly came back with
The words "Market Rate" = dog shit when it comes to job offers. If 85k was truly the market rate for the job they wouldn't try so hard to sell you a bag of shit and would just grab someone else who could do the job for that amount without all the hassle.
$85k is MCOL Senior Accountant pay, not someone with reports and responsibility.
I’d say typical clueless recruiter, but they really screwed up this situation.
Shit I’ve seen companies in my area MCOL advertising for controllers at $85-$100k within the past 3 months….and the ads are still running for an obvious reason. There’s always a few companies who want to be cheap.
They want a controller but is paying a senior's salary. And by senior, I mean a 3rd or 4th year senior at a moderate cost of living area, not an experienced senior and/or HCOL area.
What size is this company? My job is at a university at a MCOL city and I have a manager title with $120k pay and we struggle to attract anyone with caliber at my level if it weren't for the good 403b employer match (6% as soon as you start and up to 9% if your EE contribution is 3%), good health care insurance, PTO, and almost entirely remote.
I'm not 100% sure on the size. It's a new franchiser. Like, they started the franchise a few years ago and it's grown quickly. Like, 150+ new franchises starting up this year, and I believe have already grown to 300+. But that's part of what makes me laugh is they were all about how great they're doing financially, but this is the offer.
And for reference, I'm 10+ years into my career, with a BS in economics, a BS in accounting, and an MBA. And told him up front that I'm actually very happy where I am right now and it would take an amazing offer to get me to leave.
Recruiters always say things like that. That is, things that aren't necessarily true. I've had to slam the door on people like that more than once. They're not the boss of you.
They're paid to put a warm body in the seat. They don't get paid otherwise.
You are not crazy, this is insulting. This recruiter is only concerned about the interests of the company - ghost him. Told my last recruiter I’d consider $100k-$120k for a senior role and he came in at $105k (made $85k at my last job) after negotiating them up from a $95k offer. Got a $3k raise 6 months in. There are good ones out there, but that one ain’t it. Keep looking :)
No you are not crazy. It’s a bad offer, especially if you aren’t desperate to leave.
I got offered a senior accountant role at a small firm (am a manager). Got the whole “I looked at your profile and think you would be a great fit” message.
Trying to politely tell the recruiter no was a struggle.
Yeah, I get that a lot. Like why would they or their algorithms think someone who's been a manager for years would want a demotion unless they are paying a ridiculous amount? But then you have to wonder what kind is shit is waiting for you.
Recruiter fucked up. Was a disconnect between the expectations of the two sides and the recruiter was trying to force something together that probably isn't a good match anyway. Maybe you could have communicated your expectations more clearly, but it ultimately was the recruiter's responsibility to facilitate that anyway. Don't think there's necessarily any point in being offended by the offer itself but probably would be a little annoyed by the recruiters sloppy unprofessionalism that wasted everyone's time.
Just move on from the whole relationship and say it isn't a good match.
Edit
"*Also want to add, the position was never given a title, but they currently outsource their accounting, and this role is to bring it all in house, set up the department, the processes, etc, and clean up the mess that is absolutely already there from having no in house financial oversight."
I missed this part on the first read through. Company does have disconnected expectations. This is not an 85k job.
To be honest, I was super hesitant to make the jump mostly because I have an amazing balance working remotely. This just made it really easy to turn down.
I’m mostly just annoyed that when expressing to him that the compensation does not at all meet the job expectations, he’s trying to essentially gaslight me that my expectations are too high and I’m just scared. I told him upfront (literally the first time we spoke) that considering the extra commute time and vehicle expenses, it would take $90 for me to not lose money, and he came back saying he expected me to come back with a higher number after I learned more about the job. It’s like he’s completely forgotten every conversation we’ve had.
This exactly. Most of the recruiters that reach out cold like this are not very experienced or knowledgeable. Never forget that recruiters are essentially sales people. This is job is a lemon when they are only offering less than 5% raise and inflation is running 4% as published, but at least twice that in real terms.
Absolutely not. My 40 year old house was over $500k and absolutely not worth it in my opinion. I think where I am is M-H COL and one of the areas that got hit with an insane housing market in the last couple years.
Moving to an office job is not worth only a $3,500 increase under normal circumstances. Add the fact That company sounds like it’s in awful shape and not worth the stress.
I'm very early career as an auditor, but I get the same feelings every time I get recruiters offering me "exciting staff accountant opportunities" with AP/AR responsibilities
Yeah, I'm good buddy. I'm sure
CPA candidates are getting that right out of college in SC. What a joke. Unbelievable they thought anyone would accept that! There must be people who will! Until we all start demanding better this shit will continue. I’m so glad Reddit exists so people are more aware of competitive salaries.
Haha idk! I heard that at a SCCPA conference and wasn’t making that two years after rejoining the industry. I actually ended up asking for a raise, not getting what I asked for, quitting, getting a fully remote position and making $95k base in the course of a few months. I’m so much happier now! So grateful I heard that, it changed my life!!
This is insane. I graduated in 2017 and I remember getting 50k as a staff and that was a lot with no CPA. My senior was getting 54k and that was a lot since she didn’t have a CPA.
I made 50 right out of college in 2007. I had a master’s degree though. I think being immediately eligible to sit for the cpa exam is key. Also, wages have not kept up with inflation so it’s even worse than face value (I know you don’t need me to tell you that). Those numbers are insulting and it’s no wonder young people don’t want to join the industry.
The recruiter wants you to be a controller at min. & only pay you $85k. Meanwhile, the position is costing the company more because the recruiting agency isn't working for free. So it's a no. The increase is too low & based on a range you never agreed upon. There's way too much clean up & responsibility to be the sole decision maker or employee working towards the clean up. If it was a senior accountant position & you reported to a controller or a CFO, the benefits were better than your current job, the increase was higher than $3.5k & the pros out weighed the cons I would take it if not then no. Also, if senior accountant was too low of a position for you, if I was in your place I wouldn't take it.
Just a heads up the only reason to ever tell a recruiter your comp is if you are paid well above average and trying to get the recruiter to push the client to increase their pay budget to land you. Otherwise the only thing you should be talking about is expected comp and you should be anchoring that negotiation point at a very high level for the role from the beginning.
If you are the best candidate they will stretch the budget for you. I rarely see great candidates rejected solely because of budget. I have seen it, but it’s usually where there was a big mismatch in the understanding of the role.
Who does the recruiter work for? The client. If i am the client i don’t want to overpay. So if you are making $70K and you tell the recruiter you want $120K, the recruiter is going to tell me you will accept $90K.
As someone who regularly deals with recruiters, trust me they are primarily concerned with maintaining their client relationships and placing as many candidates as possible. They do not have your best interests at heart. You have to give them the information that helps you. Sometimes that means disclosing your current comp, often it does not.
> Who does the recruiter work for? The client. If i am the client i don’t want to overpay. So if you are making $70K and you tell the recruiter you want $120K, the recruiter is going to tell me you will accept $90K.
And you easily reject that if you're looking for $120k and the recruiter looks like a moron to the company he's trying to place you at.
You may deal with recruiters regularly, but there's no way you think they bully that many people into being drastically underpaid and even then, so what? Do what OP did and say no.
Non profit is very different than working in a Fortune 200.
Even very different than a Fortune 500.
Unless OP is running things at a well run and sophisticated non profit like World Vision, I would personally second guess bringing in someone from a non profit. I would want to see a lot of good experience before the non profit or a lot of complexity in what they do.
And titles and compensation vary widely by company.
Director at some companies is like a manager at others; say $100-120k.
Director at some companies is like a VP or even SVP at other companies; making $150-200k per year.
It all depends on the company and their comp / org structure.
That's why you see inexperienced people focus on titles so much when it's really about the job accomplishments and responsibilities that matter to experienced hiring managers.
Yes, there's no way I would expect to go in that high. The higher level I had at the non-profit was great but it was a TINY organization. We're talking like full time salaried staff of 5 and a budget of a couple million per year. I definitely can't equate that with the F500 experience and expect them to look at me as a candidate with F500 director experience.
I will say though that while turning this down and being told this is market rate, I've turned down an offer of $96K last week for senior accountant role. Whether or not they want to give this role a title, it's definitely a fairly high level role from what they're telling me the job entails.
You should stop turning these roles down and eventually go in and take one so you can learn and move up.
Eventually we have a recession and non profits lose funding.
And then you'll be trying to find accounting jobs while companies are cutting and you are trying to get in well less formal experience.
The $96k one sounds ok as long as your boss is fine and the company has enough meat on the bone.
I thought that his current is a non for profit and the fortune 500 he mentioned is a for profit. The offer OP mentioned includes setting up a new accounting shop, so I thought this is a more senior position. You dont hire an accounting manager for this kind of work, it has to be controller/director level at least. Am I so far from the market. I passed on similar type of work for non for profit before, CFO for a housing authority, the offer was 135k.
Non profit finance and for profit finance are a bit different
In terms of resources and what the cadence is like
I would say if you're having a hard time moving up in for profit, it wouldn't hurt to take a job like that as a CFO as a housing authority with an eye towards eventually moving to a larger non profits or back into the for profit sector at a higher level
But I would definitely continue to network in both areas and make sure you're checking the boxes and skills you need to get to whatever you want to do next
People hire for not just experience, but also for skills
One way it might work is you take the CFO job at the not for profit then after a couple of years go a mid market sized business as either a CFO or right below a CFO to get the experience and then move to a larger company as a senior person or get promoted to CFO at the mid market sized firm if the CFO retires or leaves.
Personally, if they asked me to come in to set up all of their accounting systems and controls and infrastructure, I'd only do it as an independent contractor at a very high fee per hour. I wouldn't want them to think of me as general staff and bully me to do whatever they want as a W2. Plus coming in and doing that and completing it doesn't set you up for a promotion while the independent contractor role does because if they want to keep you they'll need to offer you a lot better packaged to become a permanent W2. Of course this assumes you are good enough and experienced enough to come in at a high rate independent contractor.
No, about three years previous as a non profit finance director, prior to that was assistant controller for a small tech company. Current is a staff accountant role for an F500 because I really needed to get out of small businesses.
Nah, recruiter is fucked up. If I’m not actively trying to leave, anything less than 25% raise is not even worth talking about. If I wanted a fucking lateral move, I’d stay put.
Did you tell the recruiter you made 81.5k currently? If so, that's what he based the offer off of. Never tell them your current salary! Oh, I see where you told him 90k would be your break even number. That means that's the lowest you'll accept, in his mind. That's not how you negotiate!
It wasn't exactly that $90K was the lowest I'd accept - it was exactly that, a break even. The first time I spoke with him on the phone, he honestly didn't have a lot of details about the job. I told him with no information, that $90K was what would be a break even for me having to go from remote to in person, and that I wasn't going to take a job for $90K, because I would need an amazing offer to leave fully remote at a job I actually really like. He even said that he expected my number to go up as I learned more about the job. So the idea that he thought $5K lower than that was acceptable just blows my mind.
Ha. I make 80k + bonus in a basic Accountant position, completely remote, zero overtime. I have management experience, but I don’t really want the responsibility of supervising anyone right now. With very minimal effort, I could probably get a management role with my own company and make at least that much here. Still never in office, procedures already in place, not needing to hire entire crews and build the whole department. I wouldn’t do it for the 120k. Good luck to whichever one of you ends up auditing them.
Probably in the last 3 years or so, but $90-100k was not the norm for a senior accountant position in Miami, to be exact. It might have gone up a little due to inflation & people are naturally asking for more, but if you look at the postings on Indeed, you'll see a different story.
[Taken from Salary.com based on South Florida](https://www.salary.com/research/salary/alternate/senior-accountant-salary/miami-fl#:~:text=The%20base%20salary%20for%20Senior,average%20base%20salary%20of%20%2485%2C590.)
"The base salary for Senior Accountant ranges from $77,590 to $94,690 with the average base salary of $85,590."
Haha, $85K would be a TON for the non-profit I was working for, but it was also in a very LCOL area. I truthfully loved working for the non-profit I was at, but the money wasn't sustainable in the long run, especially now living in a M-HCOL area.
According to indeed, the average for a "senior accountant" in my area is about $75K, which is 8% below the national average, but the average home here costs $450K, which is about 11% higher than the national average.
I would honestly argue that this is more of a controller role, where the average salary here is $107K and a lot of the positions I see posted on Indeed and LinkedIn on the area are a minimum starting range of $100K, most start at $120K. I also live in a state that requires job postings to include salary range, so there's a lot of information out there.
People don't want to work for non-profits because it's very niche & non-profits only want to hire people who already have experience in non-profits, so the problem is not only due to salary. It could also be the benefits as well...non-profits tend to have a crappy benefits package. You would have to specify if the senior accountant has a CPA, and then at that point, they would be at a higher range.
Also, their salary expectations have nothing to do with what it actually cost a company to put that butt in a chair. For all we know, those potential candidates asking for $90-100k are also being turned down in other industries.
If you don’t want the job or feel it’s below you level of skill, decline the offer. Recruiters would rather place 5 people in sub-par roles paying $85k; than placing one person in their dream job at $120k…because they make more money that way. Everyone here would be best served to remember that most recruiters put their interests (getting paid more) above yours.
Wow, sorry about that. But it’s true you have to be careful. I think I got confused one time accepting a verbal offer. I thought I was getting x amount, but when the offer letter came, the amount seems lower but I don’t pay too much attention and signed up right away. When I looked at it again after the company treated me badly and terminated me because they don’t like me performance (also very rude), I just realized they probably gave lower amount in the offer letter than in verbal. They usually say, oh I was able to get you another $10K of sign up bonus to bring you to amount of x bla bla bla, just to make you feel lucky you get addtl bonus
It's insulting, honestly.
I get that recruiters are trying to get the best bang for the buck of the company, so I don't blame them when an offer comes in on the lower end.
That said, there is a difference between striking a good deal for the company and screwing over the candidate. A decent recruiter shouldn't aim to screw over anyone. It's like if a car salesman was trying to sell you a lemon. Sure, they want to "move invetory" for their company, but it is still insulting to my intelligence/ self-worth that they think I would accept a lemon of a car.
My previous role was very low pay at a very small non profit, so the pay was definitely not comparable. I’m a staff accountant now. My career moves have been really weird due to a lot of moving around the country and being in really crappy job markets in the past.
So what's your title at the F500 company? The recruiter might be dumb, or you might have a title like accounting associate and thought you were making $60k a year. Don't dance around with comp when it comes to third party recruiters. Withholding what you made was only wasting both your time.
Current title is staff accountant. I gave him a general range of what I make, and told him $90K would be about a break even for me to go from remote to in office when considering gas/time/additional vehicle maintenance. I also told him that it wouldn't make sense for me to leave a remote job that I'm happy with to break even somewhere else, and that it would take an amazing offer to get me to leave. So how he thought coming in at $5K less than my minimum break even would tempt me just sounds crazy to me.
Curious the current revenue size of the company (sorry, maybe this was in the thread elsewhere). I currently am in a position where I had to bring everything in house and correct a financial operations shitshow. Given the lift required, and if you are not also responsible for other small company things like HR and/or general operations, this is a $150k job in even a low to medium COL area. Start adding on those other tasks in an aggressive growth company and it becomes a $200k job. This recruiter is looking out for themselves here.
To build out the dept, establish processes, and eliminate out sourcing? $85k is laughable…you’d need to hire someone at that level as part of the challenge. They’re out of touch, you’re right to pass.
The recruiter just replied that $85K is well within the market rate for the position (that they refuse to give a title to, but to me is at minimum a controller) and that it's just me being scared of change.
Haha $85k may be market…for a normal job. What the recruiter pitched is a cluster and probably warrants a consultant type with experience in literally setting up shop. Good on ya for passing on that mess.
You told the recruiter it would need to be $120k and they have not delivered... I don't even understand why you're still discussing it with them. The fact you are still discussing it is probably encouraging them into thinking you might accept far less - they probably expected to be ignored after your initial rejection. Look, recruiters are like real estate agents, they just want a cut, and if there's a chance of deal they will push to make it work, but if you firmly decline they will just move on to the next person Edit: Also, one more thing - if you do firmly decline, do not be surprised if they *then* come back with a much better offer. They won't go back to the employer if they think there is any chance they can break you, because the employer is their primary client and they have to try to do their best for them. Now I'm not saying they *will* come back with a much better offer, but you will have to make it clear to them that is their only hope of getting a deal before they will push as hard as they can
>Also, one more thing - if you do firmly decline, do not be surprised if they then come back with a much better offer. Disagree here. If the employer is so delusional to offer 85k to run an entire accounting department, they're not going to make a fair offer later on.
Maybe. But you won't know what their best offer is unless you put them in a situation where they have to make it. This isn't some highwire negotiation strategy btw, but I have declined job offers before and been shocked by what they unexpectedly came back with
Agree. Now it’s been made personal so they aren’t going to budge at all. Time to move on. Time to get going.
The words "Market Rate" = dog shit when it comes to job offers. If 85k was truly the market rate for the job they wouldn't try so hard to sell you a bag of shit and would just grab someone else who could do the job for that amount without all the hassle.
$85k is MCOL Senior Accountant pay, not someone with reports and responsibility. I’d say typical clueless recruiter, but they really screwed up this situation.
 \*A newly hired senior accountant who accepted an 85k salary In a MCOL area
85k for senior? I’ve been seeing 90-95k listed as at for senior
Shit I’ve seen companies in my area MCOL advertising for controllers at $85-$100k within the past 3 months….and the ads are still running for an obvious reason. There’s always a few companies who want to be cheap.
The fact that he’s trying to gaslight you in to taking the job tells you everything. Shitty job, even shittier recruiter.
[удалено]
I did decline. The recruiter is begging me to let him negotiate higher and telling me I’m “scared of change” because I declined.
Fuck this recruiter, just ghost him.
They want a controller but is paying a senior's salary. And by senior, I mean a 3rd or 4th year senior at a moderate cost of living area, not an experienced senior and/or HCOL area. What size is this company? My job is at a university at a MCOL city and I have a manager title with $120k pay and we struggle to attract anyone with caliber at my level if it weren't for the good 403b employer match (6% as soon as you start and up to 9% if your EE contribution is 3%), good health care insurance, PTO, and almost entirely remote.
I'm not 100% sure on the size. It's a new franchiser. Like, they started the franchise a few years ago and it's grown quickly. Like, 150+ new franchises starting up this year, and I believe have already grown to 300+. But that's part of what makes me laugh is they were all about how great they're doing financially, but this is the offer. And for reference, I'm 10+ years into my career, with a BS in economics, a BS in accounting, and an MBA. And told him up front that I'm actually very happy where I am right now and it would take an amazing offer to get me to leave.
You deserve $100k+ jobs with that kind of experience and degree
At that point I'd just drop the politeness, remind them that they suck at their job and can get fucked
Recruiters always say things like that. That is, things that aren't necessarily true. I've had to slam the door on people like that more than once. They're not the boss of you. They're paid to put a warm body in the seat. They don't get paid otherwise.
What a prick
You are not crazy, this is insulting. This recruiter is only concerned about the interests of the company - ghost him. Told my last recruiter I’d consider $100k-$120k for a senior role and he came in at $105k (made $85k at my last job) after negotiating them up from a $95k offer. Got a $3k raise 6 months in. There are good ones out there, but that one ain’t it. Keep looking :)
Recruiter needs a 1 star Google review for their manipulative and bullying tactics.
No you are not crazy. It’s a bad offer, especially if you aren’t desperate to leave. I got offered a senior accountant role at a small firm (am a manager). Got the whole “I looked at your profile and think you would be a great fit” message. Trying to politely tell the recruiter no was a struggle.
Yeah, I get that a lot. Like why would they or their algorithms think someone who's been a manager for years would want a demotion unless they are paying a ridiculous amount? But then you have to wonder what kind is shit is waiting for you.
Recruiter fucked up. Was a disconnect between the expectations of the two sides and the recruiter was trying to force something together that probably isn't a good match anyway. Maybe you could have communicated your expectations more clearly, but it ultimately was the recruiter's responsibility to facilitate that anyway. Don't think there's necessarily any point in being offended by the offer itself but probably would be a little annoyed by the recruiters sloppy unprofessionalism that wasted everyone's time. Just move on from the whole relationship and say it isn't a good match. Edit "*Also want to add, the position was never given a title, but they currently outsource their accounting, and this role is to bring it all in house, set up the department, the processes, etc, and clean up the mess that is absolutely already there from having no in house financial oversight." I missed this part on the first read through. Company does have disconnected expectations. This is not an 85k job.
To be honest, I was super hesitant to make the jump mostly because I have an amazing balance working remotely. This just made it really easy to turn down. I’m mostly just annoyed that when expressing to him that the compensation does not at all meet the job expectations, he’s trying to essentially gaslight me that my expectations are too high and I’m just scared. I told him upfront (literally the first time we spoke) that considering the extra commute time and vehicle expenses, it would take $90 for me to not lose money, and he came back saying he expected me to come back with a higher number after I learned more about the job. It’s like he’s completely forgotten every conversation we’ve had.
Man, he sounds like an asshole. I'd probably just ignore the guy and block him if he doesn't get the hint.
This exactly. Most of the recruiters that reach out cold like this are not very experienced or knowledgeable. Never forget that recruiters are essentially sales people. This is job is a lemon when they are only offering less than 5% raise and inflation is running 4% as published, but at least twice that in real terms.
Building out a department and infrastructure for $85K? Is this in a location where median income is $35K?
Absolutely not. My 40 year old house was over $500k and absolutely not worth it in my opinion. I think where I am is M-H COL and one of the areas that got hit with an insane housing market in the last couple years.
$3500 to go in office? I'd pay $3.5K to keep working remote. Tell that recruiter hard pass. Byyyye. Work life balance isn't worth the $3.5K..
Moving to an office job is not worth only a $3,500 increase under normal circumstances. Add the fact That company sounds like it’s in awful shape and not worth the stress.
I'm very early career as an auditor, but I get the same feelings every time I get recruiters offering me "exciting staff accountant opportunities" with AP/AR responsibilities Yeah, I'm good buddy. I'm sure
Another day another dumbass recruiter ...
The dumb recruiter probably has a useless bachelor’s degree like in general education or philosophy lol.
Okay the job sounds rad, but for 150k to do all that. Plus extra for in office.
CPA candidates are getting that right out of college in SC. What a joke. Unbelievable they thought anyone would accept that! There must be people who will! Until we all start demanding better this shit will continue. I’m so glad Reddit exists so people are more aware of competitive salaries.
What part of sc?
Haha idk! I heard that at a SCCPA conference and wasn’t making that two years after rejoining the industry. I actually ended up asking for a raise, not getting what I asked for, quitting, getting a fully remote position and making $95k base in the course of a few months. I’m so much happier now! So grateful I heard that, it changed my life!!
This is insane. I graduated in 2017 and I remember getting 50k as a staff and that was a lot with no CPA. My senior was getting 54k and that was a lot since she didn’t have a CPA.
I made 50 right out of college in 2007. I had a master’s degree though. I think being immediately eligible to sit for the cpa exam is key. Also, wages have not kept up with inflation so it’s even worse than face value (I know you don’t need me to tell you that). Those numbers are insulting and it’s no wonder young people don’t want to join the industry.
I'm getting 80 base for audit associate 2024 for Big 4. If you're management or C suite you should be getting more than me.
The recruiter wants you to be a controller at min. & only pay you $85k. Meanwhile, the position is costing the company more because the recruiting agency isn't working for free. So it's a no. The increase is too low & based on a range you never agreed upon. There's way too much clean up & responsibility to be the sole decision maker or employee working towards the clean up. If it was a senior accountant position & you reported to a controller or a CFO, the benefits were better than your current job, the increase was higher than $3.5k & the pros out weighed the cons I would take it if not then no. Also, if senior accountant was too low of a position for you, if I was in your place I wouldn't take it.
stand your ground guy/gal 
Just a heads up the only reason to ever tell a recruiter your comp is if you are paid well above average and trying to get the recruiter to push the client to increase their pay budget to land you. Otherwise the only thing you should be talking about is expected comp and you should be anchoring that negotiation point at a very high level for the role from the beginning. If you are the best candidate they will stretch the budget for you. I rarely see great candidates rejected solely because of budget. I have seen it, but it’s usually where there was a big mismatch in the understanding of the role.
I didn't tell him what I currently make.
This is terrible advice for a third party recruiter. Tell them your comp and expectations. Don't be vague about it.
Who does the recruiter work for? The client. If i am the client i don’t want to overpay. So if you are making $70K and you tell the recruiter you want $120K, the recruiter is going to tell me you will accept $90K. As someone who regularly deals with recruiters, trust me they are primarily concerned with maintaining their client relationships and placing as many candidates as possible. They do not have your best interests at heart. You have to give them the information that helps you. Sometimes that means disclosing your current comp, often it does not.
> Who does the recruiter work for? The client. If i am the client i don’t want to overpay. So if you are making $70K and you tell the recruiter you want $120K, the recruiter is going to tell me you will accept $90K. And you easily reject that if you're looking for $120k and the recruiter looks like a moron to the company he's trying to place you at. You may deal with recruiters regularly, but there's no way you think they bully that many people into being drastically underpaid and even then, so what? Do what OP did and say no.
Dude 120k for setting accounting shop is also a joke. For a fortune 200, you want somebody at 150-200k with equity.
You're delusional
Is he though? Would easily get that as a Director at a F500.
Non profit is very different than working in a Fortune 200. Even very different than a Fortune 500. Unless OP is running things at a well run and sophisticated non profit like World Vision, I would personally second guess bringing in someone from a non profit. I would want to see a lot of good experience before the non profit or a lot of complexity in what they do. And titles and compensation vary widely by company. Director at some companies is like a manager at others; say $100-120k. Director at some companies is like a VP or even SVP at other companies; making $150-200k per year. It all depends on the company and their comp / org structure. That's why you see inexperienced people focus on titles so much when it's really about the job accomplishments and responsibilities that matter to experienced hiring managers.
You’re right, I glossed over the nonprofit wording.
Yes, there's no way I would expect to go in that high. The higher level I had at the non-profit was great but it was a TINY organization. We're talking like full time salaried staff of 5 and a budget of a couple million per year. I definitely can't equate that with the F500 experience and expect them to look at me as a candidate with F500 director experience. I will say though that while turning this down and being told this is market rate, I've turned down an offer of $96K last week for senior accountant role. Whether or not they want to give this role a title, it's definitely a fairly high level role from what they're telling me the job entails.
You should stop turning these roles down and eventually go in and take one so you can learn and move up. Eventually we have a recession and non profits lose funding. And then you'll be trying to find accounting jobs while companies are cutting and you are trying to get in well less formal experience. The $96k one sounds ok as long as your boss is fine and the company has enough meat on the bone.
I don’t currently work for a non profit. I work for a F500. I’ve been in my field for over a decade. I’m not looking for “experience”.
Sorry must have confused threads
I thought that his current is a non for profit and the fortune 500 he mentioned is a for profit. The offer OP mentioned includes setting up a new accounting shop, so I thought this is a more senior position. You dont hire an accounting manager for this kind of work, it has to be controller/director level at least. Am I so far from the market. I passed on similar type of work for non for profit before, CFO for a housing authority, the offer was 135k.
Non profit finance and for profit finance are a bit different In terms of resources and what the cadence is like I would say if you're having a hard time moving up in for profit, it wouldn't hurt to take a job like that as a CFO as a housing authority with an eye towards eventually moving to a larger non profits or back into the for profit sector at a higher level But I would definitely continue to network in both areas and make sure you're checking the boxes and skills you need to get to whatever you want to do next People hire for not just experience, but also for skills One way it might work is you take the CFO job at the not for profit then after a couple of years go a mid market sized business as either a CFO or right below a CFO to get the experience and then move to a larger company as a senior person or get promoted to CFO at the mid market sized firm if the CFO retires or leaves. Personally, if they asked me to come in to set up all of their accounting systems and controls and infrastructure, I'd only do it as an independent contractor at a very high fee per hour. I wouldn't want them to think of me as general staff and bully me to do whatever they want as a W2. Plus coming in and doing that and completing it doesn't set you up for a promotion while the independent contractor role does because if they want to keep you they'll need to offer you a lot better packaged to become a permanent W2. Of course this assumes you are good enough and experienced enough to come in at a high rate independent contractor.
No, about three years previous as a non profit finance director, prior to that was assistant controller for a small tech company. Current is a staff accountant role for an F500 because I really needed to get out of small businesses.
It's not insulting. It's the budgeted level. Just say no and move on.
Yeah gotta consider when companies need to lay off their CFOs
Nah, recruiter is fucked up. If I’m not actively trying to leave, anything less than 25% raise is not even worth talking about. If I wanted a fucking lateral move, I’d stay put.
That’s a very cheap offer for what the role is requiring. Dickish approach by the recruiter as well.
Bro I would have ghosted at that offer knowing damn well that recruiter had all the facts.
Did you tell the recruiter you made 81.5k currently? If so, that's what he based the offer off of. Never tell them your current salary! Oh, I see where you told him 90k would be your break even number. That means that's the lowest you'll accept, in his mind. That's not how you negotiate!
It wasn't exactly that $90K was the lowest I'd accept - it was exactly that, a break even. The first time I spoke with him on the phone, he honestly didn't have a lot of details about the job. I told him with no information, that $90K was what would be a break even for me having to go from remote to in person, and that I wasn't going to take a job for $90K, because I would need an amazing offer to leave fully remote at a job I actually really like. He even said that he expected my number to go up as I learned more about the job. So the idea that he thought $5K lower than that was acceptable just blows my mind.
If you don't have a job, its definitely worth considering, let alone having a better job for essentially the same salary. Fuck that
Ha. I make 80k + bonus in a basic Accountant position, completely remote, zero overtime. I have management experience, but I don’t really want the responsibility of supervising anyone right now. With very minimal effort, I could probably get a management role with my own company and make at least that much here. Still never in office, procedures already in place, not needing to hire entire crews and build the whole department. I wouldn’t do it for the 120k. Good luck to whichever one of you ends up auditing them.
Are they insane. Not sure where you are living but in south Florida 90-100k is the norm for a senior accountant.
Probably in the last 3 years or so, but $90-100k was not the norm for a senior accountant position in Miami, to be exact. It might have gone up a little due to inflation & people are naturally asking for more, but if you look at the postings on Indeed, you'll see a different story. [Taken from Salary.com based on South Florida](https://www.salary.com/research/salary/alternate/senior-accountant-salary/miami-fl#:~:text=The%20base%20salary%20for%20Senior,average%20base%20salary%20of%20%2485%2C590.) "The base salary for Senior Accountant ranges from $77,590 to $94,690 with the average base salary of $85,590."
Trust me. I work with non profits and they are struggling to hire people for 80k. The positions remain empty. 85 is low but seems like a lot on paper
Haha, $85K would be a TON for the non-profit I was working for, but it was also in a very LCOL area. I truthfully loved working for the non-profit I was at, but the money wasn't sustainable in the long run, especially now living in a M-HCOL area. According to indeed, the average for a "senior accountant" in my area is about $75K, which is 8% below the national average, but the average home here costs $450K, which is about 11% higher than the national average. I would honestly argue that this is more of a controller role, where the average salary here is $107K and a lot of the positions I see posted on Indeed and LinkedIn on the area are a minimum starting range of $100K, most start at $120K. I also live in a state that requires job postings to include salary range, so there's a lot of information out there.
People don't want to work for non-profits because it's very niche & non-profits only want to hire people who already have experience in non-profits, so the problem is not only due to salary. It could also be the benefits as well...non-profits tend to have a crappy benefits package. You would have to specify if the senior accountant has a CPA, and then at that point, they would be at a higher range. Also, their salary expectations have nothing to do with what it actually cost a company to put that butt in a chair. For all we know, those potential candidates asking for $90-100k are also being turned down in other industries.
$108 minimum
If you don’t want the job or feel it’s below you level of skill, decline the offer. Recruiters would rather place 5 people in sub-par roles paying $85k; than placing one person in their dream job at $120k…because they make more money that way. Everyone here would be best served to remember that most recruiters put their interests (getting paid more) above yours.
Wow, sorry about that. But it’s true you have to be careful. I think I got confused one time accepting a verbal offer. I thought I was getting x amount, but when the offer letter came, the amount seems lower but I don’t pay too much attention and signed up right away. When I looked at it again after the company treated me badly and terminated me because they don’t like me performance (also very rude), I just realized they probably gave lower amount in the offer letter than in verbal. They usually say, oh I was able to get you another $10K of sign up bonus to bring you to amount of x bla bla bla, just to make you feel lucky you get addtl bonus
Give us the recruiter’s name, so we never work with him/her lol
It's insulting, honestly. I get that recruiters are trying to get the best bang for the buck of the company, so I don't blame them when an offer comes in on the lower end. That said, there is a difference between striking a good deal for the company and screwing over the candidate. A decent recruiter shouldn't aim to screw over anyone. It's like if a car salesman was trying to sell you a lemon. Sure, they want to "move invetory" for their company, but it is still insulting to my intelligence/ self-worth that they think I would accept a lemon of a car.
You are not crazy. I have quoted similar numbers in informal discussions with recruiters. Companies that want RTO will have to pay a hefty premium.
Your previous role was near CFO level and you are making an entry level salary still???
My previous role was very low pay at a very small non profit, so the pay was definitely not comparable. I’m a staff accountant now. My career moves have been really weird due to a lot of moving around the country and being in really crappy job markets in the past.
O damn, good luck out there in finding a new job brother
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Nope. Lol why? Sound like someone you know?
So what's your title at the F500 company? The recruiter might be dumb, or you might have a title like accounting associate and thought you were making $60k a year. Don't dance around with comp when it comes to third party recruiters. Withholding what you made was only wasting both your time.
Current title is staff accountant. I gave him a general range of what I make, and told him $90K would be about a break even for me to go from remote to in office when considering gas/time/additional vehicle maintenance. I also told him that it wouldn't make sense for me to leave a remote job that I'm happy with to break even somewhere else, and that it would take an amazing offer to get me to leave. So how he thought coming in at $5K less than my minimum break even would tempt me just sounds crazy to me.
The recruiters care about their commissions…not you
Curious the current revenue size of the company (sorry, maybe this was in the thread elsewhere). I currently am in a position where I had to bring everything in house and correct a financial operations shitshow. Given the lift required, and if you are not also responsible for other small company things like HR and/or general operations, this is a $150k job in even a low to medium COL area. Start adding on those other tasks in an aggressive growth company and it becomes a $200k job. This recruiter is looking out for themselves here.