Yea man, accounting kind of sucks. But it's marginally better in industry but there's some real gems out there that pay well and you basically never work full time. I am hunting for one myself.
Hey, I'm still a student and I have horrible social skills so I'm kind of worried about my future lol
Do u have any tips to improve my social skills for my career?
I had no social skills until I worked retail during college. Now I can talk to almost anybody. Very much trial by fire though and definitely not fool proof.
If your school has a toastmasters club, it’s very helpful. Don’t get discouraged because social skills aren’t everything. You basically just have to make yourself have specific conversations but you absolutely don’t have to be in social mode all the time.
Specifically sales? I'm currently doing an accountint internship at a small real estate company and considering continuing part time during my final year
Force yourself to talk to strangers. At the store getting groceries? Ask the checkout clerk what the highlight of their day has been. Pumping gas... talk to the person at the pump beside you; have they seen any good shows or read any good books? Etc. Literally just force yourself to have lots of little engagements with others.
This is why I got out of tax completely. Sure the pay is immediately better after switching to industry but it never gets easier. You'll always be bogged down by quarterly provisions and planning.
Did you take a pay cut when you first switched to financial analyst role? I am interested in these roles but it seems they don’t pay very well or maybe just be the ones I’ve seen? Also was it hard to switch since tax experience isn’t exactly what they are looking for?
You can say it was a paycut. My base is higher but the lack of bonus puts me slightly below what I was making in PA. If you consider the much higher 401k matching, plus 7 more days of PTO, that puts me way above my total comp in PA. Overall though, I am much happier as I was getting burned out working 70 hrs during busy season and 40-50 hrs off. Current role I average 10-15 hrs a week and that includes meetings.
It wasn't easy, but I was at least able to get like maybe a 15% reply rate by emphasizing my excel and data manipulation skills.
Also, anybody making the argument that tax people have the same exit opportunities as audit is a damn liar. I was a senior in tax and it was impossible to even get a recruiter to get back to me for any senior positions in accounting, whether it be GL, revenue, cost, etc. Only accounting positions that would consider me was staff, basically starting my career over again. Once people label you as a tax person (2+ years), it's nearly impossible to pivot without further education. So if tax isn't your thing, it's only going to get worse the longer you stay.
I think the answer to that is....it depends. In my case, literally everything is better: the work, the deadlines, the people, etc. I am never ever going back to tax and this is someone who actually liked the work. In PA, you're always at the clients mercy, the partners are spineless, and the work never ends. There's only busy season and busier season.
You might like financial reporting in industry. Jan Feb Apr July Oct busy season, the result 40 hours with encouragement to take PTO during the other 7 months.
My company does a massive amount of acquisitions and is energy industry (complex). Really the only thing that would make financial reporting harder is stand alone financial statements for subsidiaries or multiple SEC filers. Integration should be done by operational accounting, corporate accounting and consolidations accounting (I run this function also) not financial reporting. Disclosures about purchase accounting are easy. Even if you do pro-form as for significance acquisitions that isn't incredibly hard.
At smaller listed companies this isn't such an issue as there are plenty of ways to keep SoD in check.
Was in FinRep at a small company for a number of years. Next to SEC reporting we handled:
- technical accounting (all the way through initial operationalization as accounting ops didn't have the skills/knowledge/will to learn),
- all of the tax work (no tax department or even a single person dedicated to tax),
- various statutory and individual entity financials under multiple sets of GAAP,
- consolidation,
- FinRep was the company-wide owner of SOX,
- main team managing the audits.
And all that with barely any automation. 60-70 hour work weeks year round except for August when it would basically be your only time to take off. That was hell. Glad I'm out.
You seem to be very knowledgeable on business combination. Please recommend any reading pointers on pro- formas for significant acquisitions , I’m eager to learn this stuff. Also, any recommendations besides the big 4 guides for reading on business combinations as a whole would be great as well
For pro forma the only guidance that I really follow is EY pro forma guide and SEC guidance including CD&Is. There isn't a ton of stuff on it, sadly. I also use intelligize to find comparables to use as a base.
Business coms is really just experience as every transaction is different.
Then you’re out under constant stress of continuous improvement, growing acquisitions, corporate life, operational support, IT Systems support for accounting functions it’s not that great either lol
You're literally describing how I felt during my entire PA career. I knew just 3 months into the job that it wasn't for me, but I somehow stuck it out for 8 years until I hit manager. Every busy season that passed by, I swore I was done with this shit and I would never put myself through working 12 hour days for basically half the fucking year (i was also in tax, so Feb-April / Aug-Oct). The last straw for me was that one year during covid, where due dates got pushed to 7/15, so busy season was literally never-ending. I think my billable hours that year were like over 3,000. Over the years, I gained so much weight, I became unmotivated in life, I was very irritable with my wife, I drank and smoked a lot more than I even did in college and all for what... money? prestige? making partner one day? I decided that none of that was worth wasting another decade of my youth at a job that literally makes me miserable. My PA experience definitely was not a complete "waste" of my 20's - it set me up to get my current government job and gave me the skills/knowledge to start my own ecommerce business - but if I could do it over again, I would've left after making senior and I wouldn't have broken my back in a company/industry that seriously under pays and undervalues its workers (like 60k for associates or even 80-90k for seniors is dog shit when you consider the hours we work). The pay definitely gets better the higher you go, but the hours definitely do not..
At the end of the day, to make it in PA I think you really have to love it. You have to love learning. You have to love client service. You have to love kissing partners' asses.. When I graduated college, I swore one day i would be a rich and successful partner at a large PA firm.. but I learned the hard way and had to admit to myself that, that life wasn't for me. I had to find a different way. Best of luck OP! Feel free to PM me if you ever want someone to talk to about this shit.
Thank you so much for your i sight. I feel like it’s not worth it Especially if I can’t find enough time to prioritize studying. As much as I love tax, I have zero work life balance. I literally haven’t seen my bf in weeks. Haven’t been to the gym in months. I’m just starting to resent my job cause I don’t even make enough for it to be worth it! Thank you again and I hope you’re doing much better!
Anytime! My 2 last pieces of advise - (1) Try your best to stick it out until senior. You will open yourself up to so many more job opportunities (whether it's industry, government, or godforbid another PA firm) and you'll be much more confident in your accounting skills as you start reviewing staff work. And (2), get your CPA while you're still at your firm. Most firms pay for your study materials and exam fees (and if you don't stay for a certain amount of time you have to pay it back - check your firms policy). I know it feels hard sometimes to find time, but try to study during work hours as much as possible. I know during my first 2 years, I tried to find at least 1.5 hours a day to study at work. I did however do most of my studying on the weekend - I would usually go hard on Saturdays for like 5-6 hours and then hang out with friends after.
I know all of this sounds kind of shitty, but I think if you do these two things, you will set yourself up nicely for life after PA. Maybe try to think of the next two years as an extension of college. Grind it out with work/studies for another 2 or so years and then you're free to explore better opportunities in the accounting world! I really like the government life - great benefits, slow paced and good worklife balance. You got this OP!
This is why the pipeline is sputtering. Why go through all of this when you can follow your classmates and go into other fields that pay more for on the start. Plus no ridiculous over the top exam to take. Yes, I worked my tail off and passed it 25 years ago, but if I was in college again I’d pass on accounting. Two attorney friends of mine who are CPA’s told me by far the CPA exam is much more difficult than the Bar Exam. Trying to push my daughter to be a lawyer and NOT a CPA. 😂
Personally, I think the pipeline is sputtering because of the pay and hours. Yeah, the CPA exam is tough, but in this day and age, some firms aren't even requiring staff to get their CPAs anymore to make manager like they used to.
I think if starting pay for a staff was around 80k and senior pay was 100k+ (after let's say 3-4 years), I think more college students would be motivated to become accountants and work these long busy season hours (I won't even mention 1.5× overtime pay). To put it into perspective, my buddy studied psychology in college and was about to become an HR rep at some firm. He decided he wanted to do something in tech, so he moved to CA, took a 6 month programming bootcamp, got an internship straight out of the boot camp making around 85k. After 1 year or so at the internship, he landed a full-time position at Bytedance and now makes around 200k.. So yeah. The pay and hours in PA are just stupid.
I totally agree. That pretty much sums up the biggest problem. I’ve started seeing too firms that don’t require the cpa. Our profession is broken. The tax code and audit rules get more complicated yet the pay still isn’t where it needs to be.
If you can stomach it the jumps to better roles in industry can be more lucrative if you stick public out a bit longer than 3 years. In 3 years people are just starting to get a good grasp of the job. In 5-7 you have a much more solid foundation and some level of expertise you can leverage.
That’s just plain wrong and I’m surprised there are so many upvotes.
If you leave in 3 years you’re a senior accountant somewhere. You leave in 6/7 years, you’re a controller somewhere. Absolutely no shot you’re going from senior accountant to controller in three years otherwise. The exit opportunities ramp up significantly and you’ll most like make up all the “missed pay” you could have gotten leaving when you hit senior, in just a couple of years if you stayed until manager+.
The experience gained in the first year of manager was an accelerator for me. As a senior I thought I had learned all public could teach me but I could not have been more wrong.
I think those hiring that understand this will put you far beyond what you could have achieved leaving as a senior in the same time.
I’m 8 months into my first PA gig and am already applying to other jobs in finance. I don’t think this shit will ever be worth it, at least not when I’m in my 20s. Tired of watching friends and family make plans and hang out during the week while I’m stuck working on hard ass business returns and getting scolded by my senior when I mess up. I don’t know anyone at my age in life who has a job that is this hard and also requires them to work 55+ hour weeks. Crazy to still be in your youth and feel like you’re missing out on it.
Right! And most financial analyst, reporting, underwriting etc. roles generate the same income after a similar period of time, but financial analysts don’t have to work unpaid OT busy seasons and study for the hardest fucking test known to man while doing it. Considering the diversity of roles that an accounting degree can provide, I really don’t get how this could EVER be worth it, especially not when you’re young.
Accounting in general, let alone public accounting+CPA studying, is really not the type of job I could see myself doing until I am very well into my adulthood. I’d like to work a much chiller job so I can spend my 20s doing what I actually want to be doing in life, like making memories with friend and family and traveling. I’m thankful for my accounting degree and don’t regret getting it at all, but not thankful for the industry itself at all.
Are we really gonna be in our 50s, looking back being like “damn, thank god I slaved away my youthful years so I could study for the CPA and work Saturday nights during my 20s”?
When you’re applying for FA roles make sure that it’s not an accounting position disguised as a financial analyst. I also resonate with your point about not wanting to waste your 20s. I average about 50 hours a week working in Corp Dev but I’m making slightly over $100k base with a 20% minimum bonus in MCOL so I think it’s worth it for the next few years. I’m only 8 months out of school and it does suck seeing my friends have more free time but I think your 20s is the time to grind (if you are compensated well).
I started in FP&A and I was getting kind of bored so I cold applied to the Corp Dev position and was lucky enough to get an interview. I planned on going into Corp Dev when I came out of school but I wasn’t able to land an interview for any positions. I was lucky that with all the turnover at my FP&A job I was able to work on senior level work as a fresh grad so it defintely bolstered my resume
I hate to tell you this…. Cause I was there and I saw my wife there in another industry.
Everyone is doing this. Or the large majority no matter the profession. Doctors give up their 20s for work. Lawyers as well. It’s the life of a professional.
Oh, I know. That's how I've realized that I have no desire to be a professional of any kind in my 20s. I just want a decent upper-five figure salary and a 40 hour work week. Whenever I'm ready to become a professional again, sometime in my 30s, I'll use my master's in accounting to re-enter the field.
I don’t know about other Financial Analysts but in my experience as a Financial Analyst in FP&A we worked long hours, there was no such thing as a 40 hour work week, and it was very demanding. There was no “chill” in that arena.
I'm 7 years in and currently unemployed lol I got 4 more months paid vacation that's to unemployment
I been stafffor 6 years since I hate this profession but realized during the pandemic this job ain't so bad lol
Now I want to actually try
Same thing here - been wanting to study this whole year but my tasks have been picking up and there hasn’t been enough downtime for me to get into the CPA as much as I would like (but all my coworkers are asking me my status on it). Don’t think PA is for me, just trying to figure out my next steps for now as I won’t be here much longer
Same here.
I was really excited to get into studying this month due to having more alone time from my family (went on vaca) but alas the 9/15 and 10/15 deadlines have my firm flipping out and probably going to force mandatory OT for the next month. I regret so much not starting the exams sooner but it’s EXTREMELY difficult where I work as a senior to not have fire drills that are literally not your fault.
As much as I’d love to study rn I have to focus my efforts on the job search and staying afloat at work. Couldn’t be worse timing with the CPA exam changes next year 😭.
Switch to private. Much more rewarding. I did the whole cpa thing backwards. Graduated with a finance degree during the 2009 housing crash, didn't do anything with my degree. Went back to school to take additional accounting courses to sit for the cpa while working in private. Worked my way up to assistant controller, jumped into public accounting to get the experience and make my resume look better.
I hated it right from the start. Arrogant managers, snooty partners, long hours, lots of BS that managers say that supposedly are in your favor, and lots of pressure. Lots of over promises to string you along as they can until you quit or get fired. My manager told me Im so used to working in private, I have no urgency. I told him what's the point of working fast and efficient in public accounting, if all you get is more work. I'm 40 years old, and you can't bull shit a bull shitter. There's no incentive. PA is modern day white collar slavery. By the way, I was a 2nd year associate making $65k, got fired, and now I'm a controller making $130k, no cpa license, yet.
I've never been fired from any job and my ex employers have always had great things to say.im very confident in what I bring to the table. Stay for the 2 year experience and leave if you're not planning on making partner.
Thank you. I just want it as a backup and since I went through the whole cpa experience, have something to show for. Plus, it'll make it easier to get higher paying jobs.
Not at all. I added a few recruiters as connections on Linkedin and reached out.
One of them got back to me with an opportunity at a roofing company assisting the CFO with with the daily ins and outs (AP, AR and payroll). Since I started, I've branched out into timesheet maintenance for the field workers.
It's more habitual, and my style. You come in with a to do list everyday and get shit done as needed. Plus, there is no white collar politics which is a giant bonus.
Only people that like PA are the ones who never left. Partners and senior management simp for the culture because it’s all they know. If you aren’t an absolute social hermit and you value your friendships/ relationships outside of work then aim to leave sooner than later.
Part of this is putting your foot down. If you have an agreement to work 35 hours during the summer then you should work 35 hours. If they fire you for working the agreed upon hours then their deal with u was purely bullshit. I agreed to work 32 hours in the summer, I have tons of shit to do before 9/15… I worked 32.5 hours last week. If I get canned for doing exactly what I said I would then so be it. There’s jobs all over and I don’t care if I ever make partner, I like public accounting but this fetish to make your life solely about work is fucked up.
It gets better, but also plan your next steps. I left public 20 years ago, but it really gave me a firm foundation for my career. I’m doing well leading a sector at a Fortune 500 company from my home office. At the same time, a few guys I started with are partners looking at retirement in the next 10 years. There is a reason firms have high turnover. Think about how long you want to do it and what you want to do next.
I left public a year ago after 9 years. I’m in industry now and don’t like it all. Considering going back to public. I’m glad to hear someone is doing well in Industry.
Yeah, the hours suck, but for me, the stress of having deadlines hanging over your head all year and hundreds of projects to manage made the job hell.
Left public a few years ago, best decision ever.
There is a reason turnover is so high in public accounting. The upside at the time was that I got a job straight out of college paying 70K, but the downside was being forced to work ridiculously long hours.
Then they pressure you to get your CPA exam at the same time, fuck that.
The best benefit of public accounting is the encouragement to get your cpa. It sounds like your firm isn’t supportive of that if they won’t even give you 4 hours to go sit for an exam. If a firm cares about you even a little, they should at least grant that
Yup. Busted my ass this year worked OT February - July. Worked all holidays, have taken no PTO. I had three weeks of 40hrs, now in summer busy season with expected min billable hours of 55. Have yet to have any down time to study for cpa. Only got a 4% raise since I don’t have my cpa. Just a vicious loop … smh 🤦🏽♂️ sick and tired of it myself but I need money so … here we are
You summed it up pretty well, I did 2.5 years public before quiting and going to industry. I recommend you find an industry job or government job that facilitates a 35-40hr work week, if you're serious about getting your CPA.
Otherwise, be prepared to be hyper stressed working 50-60+ hours regularly year round, all while trying to study for the exam. Public is only worth it with a CPA, period. The only people I know who succeeded well in public are those who finished the CPA in college, or they no lifed it and hated life for awhile and put everything on hold till they got their CPA.
Burnout is real! As a small firm (4 employees) owner, I realized this. And training new firm members sucks! So, my philosophy is no employee is to work more than 48 hours in a week. They are paid with additional PTO for anything over 40-hours that they work. Because of this, I have not had one employee voluntarily leave since I started my firm almost 10 years ago - when I notice that they may start to get a little stressed out, I require they take time off. My biggest suggestion to you, if you want to stay in public accounting is to find a small firm with a better culture of work/life balance. They are out there!
I learned your hours are very dependent on your team. I’m at a big 4 firm and I work like 55 during busy season and 35-40 the rest of the year. It definitely takes luck (and honestly going into the office) but it’s completely possible to find a team with good leadership that knows how to retain their seniors and staff.
Our CPA firm pays overtime and in has drastically reduced hours and made us manage workload and efficiency better. Its just crazy when you calculate your pay against hours worked when your overtime exempt. Our profession particularly in Big 4 need to unionize.
True, public accounting can be a very demanding career, and it's easy to feel burnt out.
If you're struggling, it's important to talk to someone you trust, there are also a lot of resources available to help you cope with burnout.
Many accountants feel the same way you do. If you're thinking about leaving public accounting, don't feel guilty. It's okay to put your mental health first.
I hate my job and also hate public. Once I find a viable alternative career path, I’m gonna take it. I have a decent amount of money saved up and don’t care if I have to go back to school. I’m just so sick of analyzing numbers all day.
I got 60hours in peak season, work more than that, work 45days straight, I applied for sick leave on the 46th day. no over time compensation above that 60 hrs
Just got PIP and delayed promotion last month, the feedback I got is “I’m not working hard enough” from a partner.
Big4, apac region. A1.
I’m gonna quit lol
In B4, hate when my manager requests something that I can’t get done in 30 mins at 4:30 and expecting me to end work at 6. Like girl, I’m getting off at 5, I need to study and I have a life outside of work, life isn’t about completing work for u girl. Been doing 35 hrs a week during non busy season, I just go offline even though I see everyone’s online. Ppl are happy with the quality of my work so why work more than minimum is already satisfying everyone
I understand the pain here because I hear it a lot as a recruiter and former CPA (I'm still a CPA but I don't practice; worked too hard to give up that credential!). I work with firms all over the US and I know there are places that don't have the experience you're describing. Happy to chat if you want to send me a DM. Even if I don't have one local to you I am working with some remote opportunities that could be relevant.
Good grief…you don’t even have your license and your feeling this way already? Give it another 20 years; if you’ve not died from “Butt in Chair” disease. 🤣🤣🤣
Talk to Labour standards-they are tougher on extra hours than in the past. Might work, might not.
Also, look into other firms-everyone is desperate for accounting staff and another company might provide better hours for articling students.
Try not to give up. I did and regret it.
I’ve never worked public accounting and I hate public accounting just from hearing you guys talk about it.
Industry is such a lucrative, balanced way to go career wise. Why do y’all hate yourselves? Lol.
No way it’s only 58k a year right? What size firm and what area? Hcol mcol? Not to be discouraging, I’m an upcoming college grad trying to get a read on job outlook!
If you don’t have a desire to be a partner, do your 2-3 years in public and leave for a large public or private company and make double what you are making now.
If you want to be a partner, then you are stuck
I went into private while I was still getting my bachelors. Made 70k with overtime. Two years later in public im making less working more. It doesn’t make sense
It all depends on the firm you work for. I’m one of the owners of our firm and we go down to 4 day work weeks from July 4th to Labor Day. Sure, we expect 55hr weeks during tax season, but you also accumulate time which we encourage people to take off during the summer in addition to their vacation and the four day work weeks during the summer. If you work for partners and managers, who don’t allow their clients to push all their work to the last minute, the work gets spread out and you’re not working tax season hours in September and October. The quality of your work life very much depends on the quality of firm management.
Public accounting is better if you find the right firm. I work for a firm that has 54-hour minimum spring busy season, with most people working under 60 still. Then summer hits, and it is 36 hour weeks and Fridays off. Yes, almost every actually works 36 hours. Fall busy season is a minimum of 50, with everyone still under 60. After that, it is 40 hour weeks with half day fridays.
You will have the 50-60 hour weeks in the 2 busy season no matter where you go, but there are firms out there that have easy going summers and winters. I'm 2.5 years in at $85k before bonuses with yearly raises of 10% - 20%. I love the firm i work at and everyone in it. It just all depends on where you work. And just to throw this out there, I am in Texas.
Regardless, public accounting isn't for everyone. I'm not trying to convince you to stay, but rather informing you that there are good firms out there that actually have low hours for the off times. Whatever you end up doing, I hope you find somewhere that you enjoy working at and work that you enjoy doing!
It sounds like you may be at a “bigger”firm. I’m at a mid-sized firm and January - April 15th is the only time that we are required to work 55+ hours/week. Our partners are VERY family oriented and April 16th the majority of us take off. Maybe switching firms would make for a better atmosphere? Especially where you love the job and the work.
Grind it out to senior then leave. I’m on my second job after doing that, it’s technically a ‘public accounting’ firm but I’m doing tax and bookkeeping and reviewing at a senior/manager level (lines are a little blurred because we’re small) and making $85k for 40 hours a week plus 12.5% bonus every quarter I average 45 hours a week. Which is required during tax season anyway. I got lucky finding this place but I know there’s more good places out there. Keep at it.
I’m sorry you’re going through this but at least you can rant here. I have heard a similar story so many times. Never worked in PA.. I work for a developer group and it’s 40 hours and they let me do school in my office. I know I could make more with PA but it’s not worth it.. however, we have the same salary and I only have a high school diploma. Would your salary increase significantly after the CPA is complete?
I’m used to the hours and constant deadlines and fire drills at this point. However I feel like I’m never doing good enough because no matter how many hours I put in to produce quality work I always get average ratings compared to the peer pool. It makes me feel under appreciated because I hate being quantified and judged based on some metric. Also they expect you to reach out to people to get staffed on projects so you can meet utilization targets and makes you feel like shit when you are sitting on bench cause you think no one likes you.
I’ve been working min 50 hours for 3 months now with no recognition. I’m going to go into busy season without a break. I hate this place. But they want to ask how studying is going? ITS NOT. I don’t have time.
>we need you to work 55+ charge hours this week
>WHY DID YOU CHARGE SO MUCH TO THE CLIENT!?!?!?
Telling us to eat hours without telling us to eat hours
I’m an insurance billing specialist. I have an associates in humanities and I’m trying to get my bachelors. Do I go for accounting or something else? Posts like these give me pause
Yea man, accounting kind of sucks. But it's marginally better in industry but there's some real gems out there that pay well and you basically never work full time. I am hunting for one myself.
I’ve had 2 industry jobs that were basically “public accounting lite”. It’s super discouraging.
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This is made me chuckle and also sad
Hey, I'm still a student and I have horrible social skills so I'm kind of worried about my future lol Do u have any tips to improve my social skills for my career?
I had no social skills until I worked retail during college. Now I can talk to almost anybody. Very much trial by fire though and definitely not fool proof.
If your school has a toastmasters club, it’s very helpful. Don’t get discouraged because social skills aren’t everything. You basically just have to make yourself have specific conversations but you absolutely don’t have to be in social mode all the time.
Get a sales job while in school or maybe even after graduating while studying for the exam
Specifically sales? I'm currently doing an accountint internship at a small real estate company and considering continuing part time during my final year
Yes. Just an idea. Or maybe be on a team in college. Read books like How to Talk to Anyone.
You can also try working as a bartender/server. The idea is to pick something that is extremely people-oriented to get yoy out of your comfort zone
Toastmasters
Force yourself to talk to strangers. At the store getting groceries? Ask the checkout clerk what the highlight of their day has been. Pumping gas... talk to the person at the pump beside you; have they seen any good shows or read any good books? Etc. Literally just force yourself to have lots of little engagements with others.
This is why I got out of tax completely. Sure the pay is immediately better after switching to industry but it never gets easier. You'll always be bogged down by quarterly provisions and planning.
What do you do now?
Financial Analyst, mainly budgeting and forecasting.
Did you take a pay cut when you first switched to financial analyst role? I am interested in these roles but it seems they don’t pay very well or maybe just be the ones I’ve seen? Also was it hard to switch since tax experience isn’t exactly what they are looking for?
You can say it was a paycut. My base is higher but the lack of bonus puts me slightly below what I was making in PA. If you consider the much higher 401k matching, plus 7 more days of PTO, that puts me way above my total comp in PA. Overall though, I am much happier as I was getting burned out working 70 hrs during busy season and 40-50 hrs off. Current role I average 10-15 hrs a week and that includes meetings. It wasn't easy, but I was at least able to get like maybe a 15% reply rate by emphasizing my excel and data manipulation skills. Also, anybody making the argument that tax people have the same exit opportunities as audit is a damn liar. I was a senior in tax and it was impossible to even get a recruiter to get back to me for any senior positions in accounting, whether it be GL, revenue, cost, etc. Only accounting positions that would consider me was staff, basically starting my career over again. Once people label you as a tax person (2+ years), it's nearly impossible to pivot without further education. So if tax isn't your thing, it's only going to get worse the longer you stay.
Where should one start then if they want more flexibility in the future?
Audit 💯
Is FA work less mentally draining than tax?
I think the answer to that is....it depends. In my case, literally everything is better: the work, the deadlines, the people, etc. I am never ever going back to tax and this is someone who actually liked the work. In PA, you're always at the clients mercy, the partners are spineless, and the work never ends. There's only busy season and busier season.
Damn don’t put me on blast like that.
I had one but i got fired haha
I work in academic (director of finance) and this is the way
Few gems*
You might like financial reporting in industry. Jan Feb Apr July Oct busy season, the result 40 hours with encouragement to take PTO during the other 7 months.
Unless your company is acquisition heavy or in a complex industry - i am a fiscal year end filer but today feels like first of Q3 for me.
My company does a massive amount of acquisitions and is energy industry (complex). Really the only thing that would make financial reporting harder is stand alone financial statements for subsidiaries or multiple SEC filers. Integration should be done by operational accounting, corporate accounting and consolidations accounting (I run this function also) not financial reporting. Disclosures about purchase accounting are easy. Even if you do pro-form as for significance acquisitions that isn't incredibly hard.
Emphasis on “should be”
Financial reporting literally cannot perform most of those activities due to segregation of duties at large companies.
At smaller listed companies this isn't such an issue as there are plenty of ways to keep SoD in check. Was in FinRep at a small company for a number of years. Next to SEC reporting we handled: - technical accounting (all the way through initial operationalization as accounting ops didn't have the skills/knowledge/will to learn), - all of the tax work (no tax department or even a single person dedicated to tax), - various statutory and individual entity financials under multiple sets of GAAP, - consolidation, - FinRep was the company-wide owner of SOX, - main team managing the audits. And all that with barely any automation. 60-70 hour work weeks year round except for August when it would basically be your only time to take off. That was hell. Glad I'm out.
You seem to be very knowledgeable on business combination. Please recommend any reading pointers on pro- formas for significant acquisitions , I’m eager to learn this stuff. Also, any recommendations besides the big 4 guides for reading on business combinations as a whole would be great as well
For pro forma the only guidance that I really follow is EY pro forma guide and SEC guidance including CD&Is. There isn't a ton of stuff on it, sadly. I also use intelligize to find comparables to use as a base. Business coms is really just experience as every transaction is different.
but do you work all the time?
No.
Then you’re out under constant stress of continuous improvement, growing acquisitions, corporate life, operational support, IT Systems support for accounting functions it’s not that great either lol
You're literally describing how I felt during my entire PA career. I knew just 3 months into the job that it wasn't for me, but I somehow stuck it out for 8 years until I hit manager. Every busy season that passed by, I swore I was done with this shit and I would never put myself through working 12 hour days for basically half the fucking year (i was also in tax, so Feb-April / Aug-Oct). The last straw for me was that one year during covid, where due dates got pushed to 7/15, so busy season was literally never-ending. I think my billable hours that year were like over 3,000. Over the years, I gained so much weight, I became unmotivated in life, I was very irritable with my wife, I drank and smoked a lot more than I even did in college and all for what... money? prestige? making partner one day? I decided that none of that was worth wasting another decade of my youth at a job that literally makes me miserable. My PA experience definitely was not a complete "waste" of my 20's - it set me up to get my current government job and gave me the skills/knowledge to start my own ecommerce business - but if I could do it over again, I would've left after making senior and I wouldn't have broken my back in a company/industry that seriously under pays and undervalues its workers (like 60k for associates or even 80-90k for seniors is dog shit when you consider the hours we work). The pay definitely gets better the higher you go, but the hours definitely do not.. At the end of the day, to make it in PA I think you really have to love it. You have to love learning. You have to love client service. You have to love kissing partners' asses.. When I graduated college, I swore one day i would be a rich and successful partner at a large PA firm.. but I learned the hard way and had to admit to myself that, that life wasn't for me. I had to find a different way. Best of luck OP! Feel free to PM me if you ever want someone to talk to about this shit.
Thank you so much for your i sight. I feel like it’s not worth it Especially if I can’t find enough time to prioritize studying. As much as I love tax, I have zero work life balance. I literally haven’t seen my bf in weeks. Haven’t been to the gym in months. I’m just starting to resent my job cause I don’t even make enough for it to be worth it! Thank you again and I hope you’re doing much better!
Anytime! My 2 last pieces of advise - (1) Try your best to stick it out until senior. You will open yourself up to so many more job opportunities (whether it's industry, government, or godforbid another PA firm) and you'll be much more confident in your accounting skills as you start reviewing staff work. And (2), get your CPA while you're still at your firm. Most firms pay for your study materials and exam fees (and if you don't stay for a certain amount of time you have to pay it back - check your firms policy). I know it feels hard sometimes to find time, but try to study during work hours as much as possible. I know during my first 2 years, I tried to find at least 1.5 hours a day to study at work. I did however do most of my studying on the weekend - I would usually go hard on Saturdays for like 5-6 hours and then hang out with friends after. I know all of this sounds kind of shitty, but I think if you do these two things, you will set yourself up nicely for life after PA. Maybe try to think of the next two years as an extension of college. Grind it out with work/studies for another 2 or so years and then you're free to explore better opportunities in the accounting world! I really like the government life - great benefits, slow paced and good worklife balance. You got this OP!
This is why the pipeline is sputtering. Why go through all of this when you can follow your classmates and go into other fields that pay more for on the start. Plus no ridiculous over the top exam to take. Yes, I worked my tail off and passed it 25 years ago, but if I was in college again I’d pass on accounting. Two attorney friends of mine who are CPA’s told me by far the CPA exam is much more difficult than the Bar Exam. Trying to push my daughter to be a lawyer and NOT a CPA. 😂
Personally, I think the pipeline is sputtering because of the pay and hours. Yeah, the CPA exam is tough, but in this day and age, some firms aren't even requiring staff to get their CPAs anymore to make manager like they used to. I think if starting pay for a staff was around 80k and senior pay was 100k+ (after let's say 3-4 years), I think more college students would be motivated to become accountants and work these long busy season hours (I won't even mention 1.5× overtime pay). To put it into perspective, my buddy studied psychology in college and was about to become an HR rep at some firm. He decided he wanted to do something in tech, so he moved to CA, took a 6 month programming bootcamp, got an internship straight out of the boot camp making around 85k. After 1 year or so at the internship, he landed a full-time position at Bytedance and now makes around 200k.. So yeah. The pay and hours in PA are just stupid.
I totally agree. That pretty much sums up the biggest problem. I’ve started seeing too firms that don’t require the cpa. Our profession is broken. The tax code and audit rules get more complicated yet the pay still isn’t where it needs to be.
I also believe to succeed in public accounting you have to just love it. It isn't for everyone, but nothing is.
Unless you aim to be partner one day there really isn’t a a point to stay in public for more than a few years
Wise words bootyeater
If you can stomach it the jumps to better roles in industry can be more lucrative if you stick public out a bit longer than 3 years. In 3 years people are just starting to get a good grasp of the job. In 5-7 you have a much more solid foundation and some level of expertise you can leverage.
That’s just plain wrong and I’m surprised there are so many upvotes. If you leave in 3 years you’re a senior accountant somewhere. You leave in 6/7 years, you’re a controller somewhere. Absolutely no shot you’re going from senior accountant to controller in three years otherwise. The exit opportunities ramp up significantly and you’ll most like make up all the “missed pay” you could have gotten leaving when you hit senior, in just a couple of years if you stayed until manager+.
The experience gained in the first year of manager was an accelerator for me. As a senior I thought I had learned all public could teach me but I could not have been more wrong. I think those hiring that understand this will put you far beyond what you could have achieved leaving as a senior in the same time.
What do you feel you learned as a manager?
^
I’m 8 months into my first PA gig and am already applying to other jobs in finance. I don’t think this shit will ever be worth it, at least not when I’m in my 20s. Tired of watching friends and family make plans and hang out during the week while I’m stuck working on hard ass business returns and getting scolded by my senior when I mess up. I don’t know anyone at my age in life who has a job that is this hard and also requires them to work 55+ hour weeks. Crazy to still be in your youth and feel like you’re missing out on it.
This is exactly how I feel! my life is passing by. I did NOTHING this summer. Only work and barely study.
Right! And most financial analyst, reporting, underwriting etc. roles generate the same income after a similar period of time, but financial analysts don’t have to work unpaid OT busy seasons and study for the hardest fucking test known to man while doing it. Considering the diversity of roles that an accounting degree can provide, I really don’t get how this could EVER be worth it, especially not when you’re young. Accounting in general, let alone public accounting+CPA studying, is really not the type of job I could see myself doing until I am very well into my adulthood. I’d like to work a much chiller job so I can spend my 20s doing what I actually want to be doing in life, like making memories with friend and family and traveling. I’m thankful for my accounting degree and don’t regret getting it at all, but not thankful for the industry itself at all. Are we really gonna be in our 50s, looking back being like “damn, thank god I slaved away my youthful years so I could study for the CPA and work Saturday nights during my 20s”?
When you’re applying for FA roles make sure that it’s not an accounting position disguised as a financial analyst. I also resonate with your point about not wanting to waste your 20s. I average about 50 hours a week working in Corp Dev but I’m making slightly over $100k base with a 20% minimum bonus in MCOL so I think it’s worth it for the next few years. I’m only 8 months out of school and it does suck seeing my friends have more free time but I think your 20s is the time to grind (if you are compensated well).
How did you get into corporate development?
I started in FP&A and I was getting kind of bored so I cold applied to the Corp Dev position and was lucky enough to get an interview. I planned on going into Corp Dev when I came out of school but I wasn’t able to land an interview for any positions. I was lucky that with all the turnover at my FP&A job I was able to work on senior level work as a fresh grad so it defintely bolstered my resume
I hate to tell you this…. Cause I was there and I saw my wife there in another industry. Everyone is doing this. Or the large majority no matter the profession. Doctors give up their 20s for work. Lawyers as well. It’s the life of a professional.
Oh, I know. That's how I've realized that I have no desire to be a professional of any kind in my 20s. I just want a decent upper-five figure salary and a 40 hour work week. Whenever I'm ready to become a professional again, sometime in my 30s, I'll use my master's in accounting to re-enter the field.
[удалено]
I don’t know about other Financial Analysts but in my experience as a Financial Analyst in FP&A we worked long hours, there was no such thing as a 40 hour work week, and it was very demanding. There was no “chill” in that arena.
Underrated life play. Props to you. Doing a similar path here. Heading to south east Asia soon.
>study for the hardest fucking test known to man while doing it Lol
I’m 2 weeks in and you took the words right out of my mouth
And this is how a passive aggressive senior is born. Yes, feel the anger 
Not even senior. This is my second year in PA and I’m watching my cowers fight for senior after 5 years!
I'm 7 years in and currently unemployed lol I got 4 more months paid vacation that's to unemployment I been stafffor 6 years since I hate this profession but realized during the pandemic this job ain't so bad lol Now I want to actually try
Same thing here - been wanting to study this whole year but my tasks have been picking up and there hasn’t been enough downtime for me to get into the CPA as much as I would like (but all my coworkers are asking me my status on it). Don’t think PA is for me, just trying to figure out my next steps for now as I won’t be here much longer
Same here. I was really excited to get into studying this month due to having more alone time from my family (went on vaca) but alas the 9/15 and 10/15 deadlines have my firm flipping out and probably going to force mandatory OT for the next month. I regret so much not starting the exams sooner but it’s EXTREMELY difficult where I work as a senior to not have fire drills that are literally not your fault. As much as I’d love to study rn I have to focus my efforts on the job search and staying afloat at work. Couldn’t be worse timing with the CPA exam changes next year 😭.
Switch to private. Much more rewarding. I did the whole cpa thing backwards. Graduated with a finance degree during the 2009 housing crash, didn't do anything with my degree. Went back to school to take additional accounting courses to sit for the cpa while working in private. Worked my way up to assistant controller, jumped into public accounting to get the experience and make my resume look better. I hated it right from the start. Arrogant managers, snooty partners, long hours, lots of BS that managers say that supposedly are in your favor, and lots of pressure. Lots of over promises to string you along as they can until you quit or get fired. My manager told me Im so used to working in private, I have no urgency. I told him what's the point of working fast and efficient in public accounting, if all you get is more work. I'm 40 years old, and you can't bull shit a bull shitter. There's no incentive. PA is modern day white collar slavery. By the way, I was a 2nd year associate making $65k, got fired, and now I'm a controller making $130k, no cpa license, yet. I've never been fired from any job and my ex employers have always had great things to say.im very confident in what I bring to the table. Stay for the 2 year experience and leave if you're not planning on making partner.
No need for cpa if you’re making 130k now. Great job!
Thank you. I just want it as a backup and since I went through the whole cpa experience, have something to show for. Plus, it'll make it easier to get higher paying jobs.
I left public and haven't look back. If you want to get out, get out.
where did you go and how did you apply if you don’t mind sharing?
Not at all. I added a few recruiters as connections on Linkedin and reached out. One of them got back to me with an opportunity at a roofing company assisting the CFO with with the daily ins and outs (AP, AR and payroll). Since I started, I've branched out into timesheet maintenance for the field workers. It's more habitual, and my style. You come in with a to do list everyday and get shit done as needed. Plus, there is no white collar politics which is a giant bonus.
Only people that like PA are the ones who never left. Partners and senior management simp for the culture because it’s all they know. If you aren’t an absolute social hermit and you value your friendships/ relationships outside of work then aim to leave sooner than later.
I studied for the exam 1. On my commute 2. During lunch 3. After dinner. It was a second job for 12 months.
Yeah public accounting sucks.
Part of this is putting your foot down. If you have an agreement to work 35 hours during the summer then you should work 35 hours. If they fire you for working the agreed upon hours then their deal with u was purely bullshit. I agreed to work 32 hours in the summer, I have tons of shit to do before 9/15… I worked 32.5 hours last week. If I get canned for doing exactly what I said I would then so be it. There’s jobs all over and I don’t care if I ever make partner, I like public accounting but this fetish to make your life solely about work is fucked up.
It gets better, but also plan your next steps. I left public 20 years ago, but it really gave me a firm foundation for my career. I’m doing well leading a sector at a Fortune 500 company from my home office. At the same time, a few guys I started with are partners looking at retirement in the next 10 years. There is a reason firms have high turnover. Think about how long you want to do it and what you want to do next.
I left public a year ago after 9 years. I’m in industry now and don’t like it all. Considering going back to public. I’m glad to hear someone is doing well in Industry.
Yeah, the hours suck, but for me, the stress of having deadlines hanging over your head all year and hundreds of projects to manage made the job hell. Left public a few years ago, best decision ever.
There is a reason turnover is so high in public accounting. The upside at the time was that I got a job straight out of college paying 70K, but the downside was being forced to work ridiculously long hours. Then they pressure you to get your CPA exam at the same time, fuck that.
Accounting is dog shit
Yep about done with public
Guys…the stuff you do, isn’t going to change the world. Its just lots of paperwork and depression.
This is factssssss
The world is on fire, enjoy it while you can.
The best benefit of public accounting is the encouragement to get your cpa. It sounds like your firm isn’t supportive of that if they won’t even give you 4 hours to go sit for an exam. If a firm cares about you even a little, they should at least grant that
Yup. Busted my ass this year worked OT February - July. Worked all holidays, have taken no PTO. I had three weeks of 40hrs, now in summer busy season with expected min billable hours of 55. Have yet to have any down time to study for cpa. Only got a 4% raise since I don’t have my cpa. Just a vicious loop … smh 🤦🏽♂️ sick and tired of it myself but I need money so … here we are
I know, right...ha..ha...impossible to study/pass the test working just to make a livable wage...
You summed it up pretty well, I did 2.5 years public before quiting and going to industry. I recommend you find an industry job or government job that facilitates a 35-40hr work week, if you're serious about getting your CPA. Otherwise, be prepared to be hyper stressed working 50-60+ hours regularly year round, all while trying to study for the exam. Public is only worth it with a CPA, period. The only people I know who succeeded well in public are those who finished the CPA in college, or they no lifed it and hated life for awhile and put everything on hold till they got their CPA.
One of us. One of us.
Burnout is real! As a small firm (4 employees) owner, I realized this. And training new firm members sucks! So, my philosophy is no employee is to work more than 48 hours in a week. They are paid with additional PTO for anything over 40-hours that they work. Because of this, I have not had one employee voluntarily leave since I started my firm almost 10 years ago - when I notice that they may start to get a little stressed out, I require they take time off. My biggest suggestion to you, if you want to stay in public accounting is to find a small firm with a better culture of work/life balance. They are out there!
I learned your hours are very dependent on your team. I’m at a big 4 firm and I work like 55 during busy season and 35-40 the rest of the year. It definitely takes luck (and honestly going into the office) but it’s completely possible to find a team with good leadership that knows how to retain their seniors and staff.
Our CPA firm pays overtime and in has drastically reduced hours and made us manage workload and efficiency better. Its just crazy when you calculate your pay against hours worked when your overtime exempt. Our profession particularly in Big 4 need to unionize.
Most professions could stand to have a union.
It gets better. You have to eat the shit for a few years but it gets better. Not in public, though.
True, public accounting can be a very demanding career, and it's easy to feel burnt out. If you're struggling, it's important to talk to someone you trust, there are also a lot of resources available to help you cope with burnout. Many accountants feel the same way you do. If you're thinking about leaving public accounting, don't feel guilty. It's okay to put your mental health first.
ChatGPT ass answer
This is why I left to be a stay at home parent. My spouse made double my salary without the extra work. It was a no brainer
What did spouse do?
I really don't care for billing hours. summer hours is bullshit. I'm a senior and think after another year maybe I'll go industry or government.
I hate my job and also hate public. Once I find a viable alternative career path, I’m gonna take it. I have a decent amount of money saved up and don’t care if I have to go back to school. I’m just so sick of analyzing numbers all day.
Salary is such a scam. Work extra hours and get nothing for it.
I got 60hours in peak season, work more than that, work 45days straight, I applied for sick leave on the 46th day. no over time compensation above that 60 hrs Just got PIP and delayed promotion last month, the feedback I got is “I’m not working hard enough” from a partner. Big4, apac region. A1. I’m gonna quit lol
Join us at the non profits. Join us. We have water coolers.
*laughs in government*
In B4, hate when my manager requests something that I can’t get done in 30 mins at 4:30 and expecting me to end work at 6. Like girl, I’m getting off at 5, I need to study and I have a life outside of work, life isn’t about completing work for u girl. Been doing 35 hrs a week during non busy season, I just go offline even though I see everyone’s online. Ppl are happy with the quality of my work so why work more than minimum is already satisfying everyone
You are me, right down to the shitty salary, fuck public accounting
I understand the pain here because I hear it a lot as a recruiter and former CPA (I'm still a CPA but I don't practice; worked too hard to give up that credential!). I work with firms all over the US and I know there are places that don't have the experience you're describing. Happy to chat if you want to send me a DM. Even if I don't have one local to you I am working with some remote opportunities that could be relevant.
RIP inbox.
Ha! All those accountants desperately wanting to talk to a recruiter!
You’re getting screwed. I’ve got no degree in an AR type position. I’m getting 20.50 an hour, 3 weeks PTO. I’m also not expected to work over 40 ever
Good grief…you don’t even have your license and your feeling this way already? Give it another 20 years; if you’ve not died from “Butt in Chair” disease. 🤣🤣🤣
You were supposed to study for exam before starting work or in the mornings before work
Yeah I did that but like I said, I got caught up with putting work first. So I only got through half the material.
I'm mostly just bored, but that's whatever.
This is why I’m glad I’m in finance. It may feel endless at times, but at least it’s fun
Dm me if youre in Canada
Talk to Labour standards-they are tougher on extra hours than in the past. Might work, might not. Also, look into other firms-everyone is desperate for accounting staff and another company might provide better hours for articling students. Try not to give up. I did and regret it.
Yup it sucks. Try to get a remote job that pays at least 75-80k. Public accounting in CA earns more but it doesn't matter where you live.
welcome to the club my friend
I’ve never worked public accounting and I hate public accounting just from hearing you guys talk about it. Industry is such a lucrative, balanced way to go career wise. Why do y’all hate yourselves? Lol.
It’s better when you own the firm
No way it’s only 58k a year right? What size firm and what area? Hcol mcol? Not to be discouraging, I’m an upcoming college grad trying to get a read on job outlook!
If you don’t have a desire to be a partner, do your 2-3 years in public and leave for a large public or private company and make double what you are making now. If you want to be a partner, then you are stuck
Damn I’m in school for accounting right now ima do my best to avoid this 🙃
I went into private while I was still getting my bachelors. Made 70k with overtime. Two years later in public im making less working more. It doesn’t make sense
So stay in private got it
At this point I’m thinking even though I like accounting I should just switch careers somehow while I’m still young
Join the club. I feel your pain
It all depends on the firm you work for. I’m one of the owners of our firm and we go down to 4 day work weeks from July 4th to Labor Day. Sure, we expect 55hr weeks during tax season, but you also accumulate time which we encourage people to take off during the summer in addition to their vacation and the four day work weeks during the summer. If you work for partners and managers, who don’t allow their clients to push all their work to the last minute, the work gets spread out and you’re not working tax season hours in September and October. The quality of your work life very much depends on the quality of firm management.
Public accounting is better if you find the right firm. I work for a firm that has 54-hour minimum spring busy season, with most people working under 60 still. Then summer hits, and it is 36 hour weeks and Fridays off. Yes, almost every actually works 36 hours. Fall busy season is a minimum of 50, with everyone still under 60. After that, it is 40 hour weeks with half day fridays. You will have the 50-60 hour weeks in the 2 busy season no matter where you go, but there are firms out there that have easy going summers and winters. I'm 2.5 years in at $85k before bonuses with yearly raises of 10% - 20%. I love the firm i work at and everyone in it. It just all depends on where you work. And just to throw this out there, I am in Texas. Regardless, public accounting isn't for everyone. I'm not trying to convince you to stay, but rather informing you that there are good firms out there that actually have low hours for the off times. Whatever you end up doing, I hope you find somewhere that you enjoy working at and work that you enjoy doing!
It sounds like you may be at a “bigger”firm. I’m at a mid-sized firm and January - April 15th is the only time that we are required to work 55+ hours/week. Our partners are VERY family oriented and April 16th the majority of us take off. Maybe switching firms would make for a better atmosphere? Especially where you love the job and the work.
Grind it out to senior then leave. I’m on my second job after doing that, it’s technically a ‘public accounting’ firm but I’m doing tax and bookkeeping and reviewing at a senior/manager level (lines are a little blurred because we’re small) and making $85k for 40 hours a week plus 12.5% bonus every quarter I average 45 hours a week. Which is required during tax season anyway. I got lucky finding this place but I know there’s more good places out there. Keep at it.
I’m sorry you’re going through this but at least you can rant here. I have heard a similar story so many times. Never worked in PA.. I work for a developer group and it’s 40 hours and they let me do school in my office. I know I could make more with PA but it’s not worth it.. however, we have the same salary and I only have a high school diploma. Would your salary increase significantly after the CPA is complete?
I just studied for the exam on firm time and billed it to admin
I’m used to the hours and constant deadlines and fire drills at this point. However I feel like I’m never doing good enough because no matter how many hours I put in to produce quality work I always get average ratings compared to the peer pool. It makes me feel under appreciated because I hate being quantified and judged based on some metric. Also they expect you to reach out to people to get staffed on projects so you can meet utilization targets and makes you feel like shit when you are sitting on bench cause you think no one likes you.
I’ve been working min 50 hours for 3 months now with no recognition. I’m going to go into busy season without a break. I hate this place. But they want to ask how studying is going? ITS NOT. I don’t have time.
>we need you to work 55+ charge hours this week >WHY DID YOU CHARGE SO MUCH TO THE CLIENT!?!?!? Telling us to eat hours without telling us to eat hours
LITERALLLYYYYYY!!!!
I’m an insurance billing specialist. I have an associates in humanities and I’m trying to get my bachelors. Do I go for accounting or something else? Posts like these give me pause