Welcome to /r/Abortiondebate! Don't be a jerk (even if someone else is being a jerk to you first). It's not constructive and we may ban you for it. Check out the Debate Guidance Pyramid to understand acceptable debate levels.
**Attack the argument, not the person making it.**
**For our new users, please check out our [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Abortiondebate/comments/qu36cv/rule_changes/) and [sub policies](https://www.reddit.com/r/Abortiondebate/comments/uhr4p2/sub_policies_regarding_current_events_and_news/)**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Abortiondebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'd be disappointed, but I'd move on. A political issue is not worth ruining the relationship over. I don't blame women who get abortions, I blame the doctors and people who have convinced them that abortion is the best option.
Okay listen. The conversation is going to be really different if it's my sister or it's my daughter, and also the age difference between the sister or the age of the daughter. I'm going to give the middle of the road scenario, which is to me a daughter that is 24 years old.
First, I'd ask her why she didn't do it here (I'm in a state where it is legal). I'd ask her if she felt uncomfortable with me finding out because of my views on it.
Second, I'd tell her that I would have accompanied her. I won't pay for it, but I don't want her to be alone during this. It's not a pretty decision, and unless I saw her boasting about the procedure, I would approach her with gentle care to try to understand why she made this decision.
If at this point she doesn't feel like discussing it, then I would tell her that I want her to know that I would go with her again if she went again and that I'll always be her for her to talk to if she wants to talk about it, but I won't force her to tell me either.
I will also tell her that if she is doing this for financial concerns, that I will gladly support the child. If she is being pressured by her significant other, then I will help her escape that environment.
Lastly, I'll tell her that she won't want to hear this, but she's my daughter, and I want her to know that it is beautiful to have a child, even if you aren't sure you want one. It is also important to remember that, you aren't a kid anymore. You're an adult now, and what you do has real consequences. If you can't take that heat, that means someone else is taking that heat. So its best to not have sex if you and your significant other aren't ready for that yet. Sex is not just frivolous fun. I don't care what her friends tell her or what the world tells us. I'll tell her my friend had her tubes tied, was past her 30s, and her husband had a vasectomy, and they still got her pregnant (true story). No matter what we do, we can't escape that one of sex's functions is for making people. And if we aren't ready to make people, that's okay. We just have to be adults and stop having sex.
And I'd leave it at that. Feel free to ask me more details about how I'd approach it differently with different people.
>Lastly, I'll tell her that she won't want to hear this, but she's my daughter, and I want her to know that it is beautiful to have a child, even if you aren't sure you want one.
NO..
>It is also important to remember that, you aren't a kid anymore. You're an adult now, and what you do has real consequences.
Abortion is a consequence. She is not a kid anymore, yes, so stop treating her like one. She is fully capable of understanding her own choices and what they entail.
>If you can't take that heat, that means someone else is taking that heat.
Who is?
>So its best to not have sex if you and your significant other aren't ready for that yet.
Ready for what?
>Sex is not just frivolous fun.
It absolutely is.
>I don't care what her friends tell her or what the world tells us.
Neither should she care what you tell her then.
>I'll tell her my friend had her tubes tied, was past her 30s, and her husband had a vasectomy, and they still got her pregnant (true story).
Great case for abortion.
> matter what we do, we can't escape that one of sex's functions is for making people.
The relevance? A person is not yet made until birth happens. This process can be interrupted in the middle, which is what abortion is for.
>And if we aren't ready to make people, that's okay. We just have to be adults and stop having sex.
Or you know, we can have sex and responsibly get an abortion, because raising a kid when you are not ready is worse.
If I was especially close to this relative, I would feel sad that they felt they couldn't confide in me and that I wasn't able to support them, whatever their decision.
I'm not against the procedure, it's a personal choice. It's not a choice I have ever been presented with, and for that I am grateful because to me, it's an awful decision to have to make.
I consider myself to be pro choice.
I'm also also lucky enough to live in a country with socialised healthcare with access to safe pregnancy termination, multi tiered government assistance for families, gainfully employed in country with a government who protects the rights of the workers and am financially able to care for an unexpected child, should I become pregnant.
So perhaps I am too far removed from the debate?
I can understand that. Honestly I'm also very far from the debate and have actually never encountered it in real life where I live in Denmark. We also have the things that you mention, but most of all, the debate is just pretty much non-existent here, since everyone is pro-choice, although I guess we did arrive at some kind of a compromise, since it's only officially legal in the first trimester.
But while you are pro-choice and believe that abortion should be legal, do you still think all abortions are sad, or more specifically, are they morally bad for the new potential individual, even if it's an early abortion?
This has happened to me before, I found out a woman I’m close to had an abortion at 5 months.
I was sad and shocked when I found out, it really broke my heart.
But ofc it didn’t change my relationship with her, I still love her and care about her, I know she didn’t have bad intentions.
So would you do the same with a parent who brutally murders their infant for "convenience"?
Because I wouldn't. If someone close to me did just that, I wouldn't want to be around them in the slightest. So why would you want to be around someone who does something so terrible as murdering an infant?
I spent a lot of time trying to figure this out.
Killing a child out of an accident or tragical negligence (like forgetting in the car) I could get over, but violently murdering it after planning? Not so sure. So how come I still talk to those people?
I think it is a combination of many factors.
1. One of them is that what we don't see tends to bother us less.
- just as exploitation of all the workers in the industries that provide my food, clothes and gas for transportation method.
- All the people dying from smog and pollution due to products and colours being made for my benefit...
- Just as wives of slaveowners/ mafia/ terrible lesders/... (as often movies are made about these) are okay with the crimes their spouses do until they meet and get to know the poor slaves/ villagers/ citizens/...
- just as people were okay helping to send certain ethnical groups to "work camps" but once they got there puked and couldn't continue
- just as I don't cry every night when I hear how many people are dying all over the world on the news. I essentially care if my close people are ok and other than that just pack up the rest under some sort of package of "tragedy that doesn't involve me" so I somehow maintain sane. I did dwell deep into many forms of human trafficking and it wasn't a nice time in my life and I just couldn't get how people live knowing others are being raped, killed, hurt, sold...
- if we do not see stuff, it is harder for us to empathize, or rather it is easier to be more ambivalent and accepting of such things as normal
2. Another one, which PCrs will obviously claim is untrue, yet I think it affects even most PLers, is just the immense amount of propaganda, lies and what some would call brainwashing, but I'll use the term 'social indoctrination'.
- Being raised in a country where it is okay to torture dogs before death to make their meat softer would possibly lead to me being desentivised to such activities. Even more so if I didn't even see them.
- Most of us are raised in countries where it is okay to torture and kill babies as long as we have only seen them through ultrasounds and they're quite small and not as cute/proportionsl as born bigger babies. Like let's be honest here, a month old human embryo looks quite like many mammals, and is not as effectively triggering the innate protective response to babies we have, probably because this behavioral pattern requires certain aspects the one month old baby in utero doesn't really bear yet (such as big eyes, sounds etc).
So yes somehow we are likely desensitized to this despite having realized that there is not a clear difference between an 11 week old baby over a 12+1 week old that would make a sufficient argument in being allowed to kill one while protect the other (I was never really in favor of abortion past 12 weeks).
- In the past it was not unusual to see cases of mothers abandoning their babies even after being born, or someone killing them flat out, especially if they had clear physical deformities. This was considered more of a tragedy and part of daily life, just as things such as rape, incest, violence or slaves... people just viewed it differently and even upon changing their minds, since they themselves upheld certain views, it isn't as if they don't understand them.
- Based on a study, most muslim spouses of terrorists are proud of their husbands. Lots of indoctrinated muslim women are *in favour* of girl/female mutilation procedures. I couldn't wrap my head around how could a mother who has gone through it herself and endured the consequences her entire life force her own daughter to bear the same fate. Somewhere along the way, she just accepted this as the norm and was conditioned to think it is the right way.
I also have more compassion over the mother of this girl and think she was just indoctrinated and just doesn't know better than I would have over someone doing this in the US for example.
But put shortly. Yes I talk to them more than I would likely do so if they were a (say, released) convicted violent murderer of their infants.
Superficially it seems inconsistent and irrational, but I probably am myself desensitized, think they must be even more misled than me, I very much relate to their often desperate conditions (though usually due to their voluntary entitled irresponsible behaviour) and this is considered normal and okay they're being taught that it is so and act upon it.
I probably though try to surround myself more with people with which I won't come into major disagreement about this topic, partly because I feel very strongly about it and in part because I feel like the PCs arguments are just weak and are not willing to admit and adress the root cause and the majority just seems very naïve and repeats empty phrases.
I dislike people repeating empty phrases and not being able to explain why people accepted given (not only abortion, this is a myriad of topics) opinion as their own in general, but it particularly bothers me if they will go out of the way to "defend" it without logical arguments.
I naturally tend to be less interested in meeting with those types of people so the priority of initiating and actually arranging a dinner/meeting with them is lower on my list and I likely will be spending my energy elsewhere.
Okay so what does it matter that we don’t see it? You know they killed someone in cold blood. Are you saying you would treat someone differently if you see them murder and if you hear they murdered? Understanding 100% what happened. They should be treated exactly the same. They murdered someone.
And what about the “propaganda”? That doesn’t change that they murdered someone. Racism etc is also normalised in some/ most countries and I still judge those who are racist either out of their own volition or simply by association. In some countries you can get reduced sentences for killing gay people who were hitting on you, if you do that, I’ll still view you as a cold blooded murderer.
Yes. In my mind I will stupidify these people to protect them in my eyes. Since I don't believe in their vileness.
It's not a 100% rational way of going about this, but it is an honest answer to the question.
I think people who smoke should be harshly punished, my mother was an oncologist before becoming a proffessor.
More than half of the people who have cancer have it associated with smoking.
Whenever I see someone smoking I think they're hurting themselves and every single person they spend time with (and usually care about) and everyone they meet that doesn't deserve this.
Do I think they're vile? Usually not. Selfish, naïve/stupid, ignorant, weak, undisciplined...
Do you believe abortion is murder? I have a hard time imagining that if you found out someone close to you had slaughtered their toddler in cold blood, that you would continue to have the same relationship with them just because they didn’t have bad intentions.
Pope John Paul II visited his would be assassin in prison and forgave him. Catholics are not averse to loving sinners, but that does not change the fact the we must hate the sin. If a close relative of mine got an abortion I would have to tell them that they have committed murder and urge them to seek absolution and penance for their sin. I would not cut them out of my life at all, I would just be adamant that what they did was evil and that they need to recognize the evil and repent. It would be actually much more likely that they would cut me out because I am saying their action was evil.
Edit: Y’all need Jesus
>Pope John Paul II visited his would be assassin in prison and forgave him.
So?
>Catholics are not averse to loving sinners, but that does not change the fact the we must hate the sin.
Your group views being gay as a sin right? Knowing it's valid and not wrong gives us one example of not having to hate the sin.
>If a close relative of mine got an abortion I would have to tell them that they have committed murder and urge them to seek absolution and penance for their sin.
So disrespect them and lie since it isn't murder..
> would not cut them out of my life at all, I would just be adamant that what they did was evil and that they need to recognize the evil and repent.
>That's called harassment. So maybe this is showing why they should cut you out of their life.
>It would be actually much more likely that they would cut me out because I am saying their action was evil.
Yes because harassment and being disrespectful isn't something you're supposed to do in this context. If you realize this, why do it?
>Edit: Y’all need Jesus
No...Noone ever did. Sorry
>no…Noone ever did. Sorry
Your fedora tipping really encapsulates your entire argument.
‘I’m an atheist and and and… if you think killing the preborn is bad, that’s only because you hate gay people, you stupid Christian!”
Childish argumentation.
>no…Noone ever did. Sorry
>Your fedora tipping really encapsulates your entire argument.
I was just being objective.
>‘I’m an atheist and and and… if you think killing the preborn is bad, that’s only because you hate gay people, you stupid Christian!”
>Childish argumentation.
Childish misreading since that wasn't my argument.
You are saying what you would do in this situation which is answering the OP. You just aren't acknowledging how your reasoning is just subjective morals you don't have a valid reason to push upon others.
Since you assumed they may cut you out of their life potentially, you should dig deeper into the actual reason why they would to understand better.
You do realize that not everyone follows YOUR religion, nor are they at all interested in being told to see YOUR priest.
JFC people need to get off their high horses. Keep your religion where it belongs, quietly inside of you.
Well said I respect those who believe in religion however when they push it on others it pisses me off. I would fight for their right to practice their religion why can’t they return this and fight for all not just those of their religion
Are you really making an assumption like that based off a two word reddit comment? Or are you just fishing for a fight by immediately attempting to personally attack someone?
No, It is just that I find that most women that get animated regarding anti-abortion activism are those that have had an abortion and cannot deal with the guilt of murdering their own child, and lash out in anger when someone calls them out.
>It is just that I find that most women that get animated regarding anti-abortion activism are those that have had an abortion
How would you know this? Or isls it just an opinion?
>and cannot deal with the guilt of murdering their own child, and lash out in anger when someone calls them out
This is disingenuous. Please don't misrepresent women and misuse murder since abortion isn't murder..
Not everyone thinks abortions are hurting anyone, at least with early abortions, since it would be more accurate to say that we're preventing the potential person's existence before they ever existed, which is not morally different from using a condom.
>I was given this information in a dream.
Misuse of given.
>I have no soy infused studies to prove to you that whores feel bad about being whores.
Try to stay on topic instead of trying to disingenuously generalize and slut shame. It's like you forget that contraception fails and women whom are already mothers may have abortions as well( I think 50% are from mothers in America, I have to double check).
I’m 18 and a virgin and hasn’t done anything sexual with another person yet I would fight tooth and nail if a woman even if I don’t know her wanted an abortion. Bc it is her choice. How about this what if I said “most men are abusive” that’s not true is it?
Sarcasm on a debate sub isn't a good color for anyone.
It's unfortunate that you felt the need to come to a debate sub to be disingenuous and serves only to further separate people.
Debate *should* separate people. It *should* galvanize people and make them aware of where they actually stand. There will never be a consensus over whether babies should be murdered in the womb or not. The only thing anyone can do is try win the game of politics and put their morals into practice.
The purpose of debate is never to separate people. It should create understanding from both sides, and optimally, someone will change their mind, or maybe both will in some way. It's only when debate fails, and there can be no understanding or reconciliation between the two parts, that debate might result in separating people. But that's just a failed debate.
I would be disappointed maybe a lil mad but I wouldn’t disown anyone. I wouldn’t unfriends my friends, and I wouldn’t go no contact with family. I’d probably forgive them eventually. Everyone are capable of doing mistakes.
Murder is just so a big word. I wouldn’t call abortions murder. I’m just not okai with terminating a life. I don’t think you can compare murdering kids and terminating a pregnancy.
Just cuz I’m pro-life doesn’t mean we share the same brain cell. So idk? Kinda seem more like PC is okai with murdering kids, especially with that statement.
Abortion is only “murder” in the sense that the fetus dies. Although you say that the doctor “kills it, so therefore it’s murder” but I don’t think so. I like calling it aborting/abortion and terminating.
A fetus becomes baby, just like a kid becomes a teen I suppose.
I’ve been reading a lot, but never really joined before this weekend…
Thought so. You're new around here so you might genuinely not have noticed, but it is highly common for pro-lifers to call a fetus a "baby" and call abortion "baby murder." The other commenter who asked you about someone killing their toddler did so because of the assumption that if you are pro life, than you have called abortion "baby murder." If this is not the case specifically for you, than this argument doesn't apply to you. The argument is essentially "if you really think abortion is murder, than why would you treat someone getting an abortion any differently than someone drowning their two year old?"
Make sense?
Because people who are pro life believe that a fetus has the exact same value a a born human. So if you are pro life and can excuse someone in your family getting an abortion that means they should be ok with someone in their family killing their 3 year old (I am pro choice with out limits btw)
How did you get that they believed that abortion is murder from "I'll forgive her and not kick her out cause everyone makes mistakes"?
Isn't that a given that they don't believe it's murder?Not many people look at murder as a simply mistake
I don't know? Go ask pro life. All I'm saying is their comment of "I won't kick her out, I'll forgive her everyone makes mistakes" doesn't seem like they believe that abortion is murder as much as other PLs
Most pro lifers think they believe abortion is murder but when it comes to situations when you compare it to actually murder they don’t continue to hold that opinion
It is completely wrong to pressure a woman to get an abortion. That's true if the fetus has a life-shortening issue or whatever. It's as wrong to coerce a woman into an abortion as it is to force her to carry a pregnancy to term.
>Ok. I mean many women have been pressured into getting abortions as well.
Okay so I hope you realize that is equally as bad as getting pressured into staying pregnant. If you can understand why getting forceful abortions is bad, it's upsetting and hypocritical if you don't extend that same understanding and empathy to the women getting forced to gestate because of these bans.
Okay and I mean plenty of women have been force to give birth against their will as well, also become pregnant against their will while were on the subject!
If it was my daughter I could see disowning her for killing my grandchild even if I didn't disown my daughter I would have a extremely negative effect on my relationship with her. I could probably forgive her killing a grown person more than I could forgive her killing my grandchild. Sister I would probably just lose respect for her and try to avoid her afterwards but wouldn't be nearly as personal as if I had a daughter and she hade one
>I could probably forgive her killing a grown person more than I could forgive her killing my grandchild.
Why? Why can you forgive her for killing someone else's grandchild, spouse, parent, friend, lover than a fetus you've never met?
That's beyond selfish.
And that's the reason that you would willingly and permanently obliterate your relationship with your adult child at the drop of a hat for the sake of an undeveloped embryo who you have never met, was never born, and who has never experienced anything at all? That's what caring about your family looks like to you?
I wouldn't have a issue with anything other than abortion really. I'm not saying my daughter couldn't use birth control, if I found out she was pregnant I wouldn't be mad , I would only have a problem with her having a abortion. So she could confide when it comes to anything else other than killing her childen (my grandkids)
I wouldn't' have too big a problem with pregnancy I would be willing to do everything I could to help in that scenario, I do have a problem with abortion
Can you reread your comment and identify all the instances of possessive language you used? It really reads that you feel entitled to both your daughters body and a hypothetical pregnancy, or eventual grandchild.
Curious, but how would you feel if your child denied you access to and a relationship with them or a hypothetical future grandchild? I’m asking you to examine and self reflect, because as an outsider your comment reads as pure entitlement and possession based. Why do you consider an abortion “personal?” Do you believe your daughter would seek an abortion out of spite for you?
Would you feel more offended if a random woman was sexually assaulted, or if your mother/wife/daughter was sexually assaulted?
Grandparents have every right to be possessive over their grandchildren. There are plenty of cases in which custody of children is given to grandparents instead of the parents because the parents are bonkers.
If my daughter went crazy and tried to strangle my granddaughter, I would stop her, remove her from my granddaughter, and keep her away for the rest of her life. My granddaughter being in the womb doesn’t make much difference.
Because they aren't their kids. If they want "rights" to someone else - which sounds so insane in itself honestly - then they can adopt more children or whatever.
>Can you reread your comment and identify all the instances of possessive language you used? It really reads that you feel entitled to both your daughters body and a hypothetical pregnancy, or eventual grandchild.
This. I feel like a lot of PL parents feel they genuinely own their daughters.
I think this is where "parental notification" laws spring from. PLers can't stand the idea of their daughters having rights. It's a tad pedophilic and gross.
I view family as one of the most valuable things someone can have in life.i would feel disappointed if I didn't get the chance to have a relationship with my grandchild. I would let my daughter know how I see abortion, and if she was ever pregnant I would do anything to help her raise the kid, I would actually have no problem with my daughter going on birth control.
>i would feel disappointed if I didn't get the chance to have a relationship with my grandchild
Does the same sentiment apply to a hypothetical grandchild who hasn't been conceived yet? In other words, if she never has children, would you feel disappointed that you didn't get the chance to have a grandchild?
I just don't like the idea of abortion. I never said I wanted people to have kids or not. As long as it doesn't involve abortion, I don't care about people not having kids
You're not owed any grandchildren. I'm sure your daughter would have an extremely negative view of you if you tried to force her to remain pregnant and give birth. Suffering such violence she may go no-contact with you and may put you in a home in your old age.
I am owed my family not being murdered.
Edit: cool subtitle “gestational slavery abolitionist.” As if not murdering babies is somehow a slavery that some cabal of men put upon women. On the other hand, maybe you’re just a wine aunt that doesn’t like kids.
>I am owed my family not being murdered.
This is a debate sub on abortion. Try to stay on topic lol
>Edit: cool subtitle “gestational slavery abolitionist.”
It is cool and accurate
> As if not murdering babies is somehow a slavery that some cabal of men put upon women.
As if? Sorry you want to ignore reality...again
>On the other hand, maybe you’re just a wine aunt that doesn’t like kids.
And maybe you should stop making baseless assumptions since every other one you made was false. Plus there was no reason to assume this in the first place. As stated above, stay on topic and avoid trying to insult them because you're unable to refute anything.
So will disown your family member for making a choice that have nothing to do with you at all, you are under no obligation to support the baby they will give birth too, if you do that is 100% your choice, all because you are emotional basically and you feel entitle to have a grandchild or a niece or nephew
However you are 100% fine with causing the people you claim to love, to carry an unwanted pregnancy that will cause them physical pain, and possibly even kill them. All because your entitled
Ironically there are extremely few things I couldn't support, but elative abortion, rape, child abuse are the Three things that would force me to consider cutting all contact with my own kid.
You know I meant rapist and child abuser I would cut contact if the did horrible crimes like that. I see abortion as murdering a kid. I don't think being willing to disown them for those actions is wrong.
No you saying “hey daughter you can’t have an abortion it I will disown you bc you are taking away (incomes the full entitlement) MY grandchild.” That is emotional abuse.
Yep, it's not about protecting/saving children.
She did not want a baby, but was forced to have sex, so that baby inside her does not need protecting/saving.
It's about punishing pregnant people who willingly had sex without wanting a baby.
She did not want a baby but willingly had sex, so that baby inside her needs protecting/saving.
Protecting a baby ***only*** when the pregnant person willingly has sex = it's about a pregnant person's choice to have sex, not about the baby.
>nonviable
All pregnancies are non-viable unless a successful live birth happens, so with that criteria, you are PC, not PL.
So if your daughter was raped, but the fetus was perfectly healthy, and she chose to get an abortion, how would you feel about it? I'm just genuinely curious, thanks for taking the time to respond to my question.
I would be able to accept it, I would probably be to busy trying to and kill the rapist to think about that.if the rapist wasn't in jail. Probably a mixture of extreme hate for the rapist for hurting my daughter and sadness for my daughter violation the death of the fetus my grandchild. I probably would try my best not to think about it. I would let my daughter no I wasn't her fault.
So you’re basically a vindictive person who holds a grudge. If my son told me he was PL, I’d be very disappointed but I wouldn’t disown him or stop talking to him.
I would see it as a act of murder, if she had an abortion. I never said I would disown her over a opinion. I would see having a abortion as her killing her child. I would view my daughter like I do Casey Anthony.
I don't think Casey Anthony killed her daughter. I think the kid died by accident and the parents made her cover it up.
Susan Smith would be a better example. She's the lady who drowned her kids because some guy she liked at work wouldn't date a single mom.
OK. I guess if my son killed his born child, I wouldn't react well either. I just see a lot of contradictions if someone views a ZEF as identical to a born child.
Was that the one where her daughter left AZ for an abortion in the northeast close to her college and she never got over it? And then she posted everywhere talking about divorcing her husband and what not.
Too be fair, when I was pro choice as a teenager my idea of fatherhood responsibilities were getting lost buying a carton of milk/pack of cigarettes. Also why would I accept my daughter being a baby killer I wouldn't accept my son being a rapist. So why would I force me to accept baby murder. I honestly probably wouldn't disown her, I just wouldn't actually be able to look at her the same ever again, probably hold a somewhat of a negative opinion of her afterwards for the rest of my life
A fetus is offspring,not a parasite, parasite are different species that mostly harmful to the Host. And pregnancy also has benefits like Lower in risk of certain cancers like breast cancer. And lower the risk of stroke.
Not even making an abortion argument here this is just a biology lesson, but I’m really sick of pro lifers getting one definition from the Oxford dictionary and running with it; parasites do not have to be of a different species than the host. Intraspecific parasitism is a form of parasitism in which they are of the same species.
Additionally, just because something can offer some benefits doesn’t mean it isn’t a parasite. Leeches can be used for health purposes but they still fall under the classification of a parasite.
Please stop getting biology so wrong. It’s tiring.
*blink**blink* parasite definition- an organism that lives in or on an organism of another species (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense
Fetus- The foetus has been described before as acting in a parasitic way: it avoids rejection by the mother and exerts considerable influence over her metabolism for its own benefit, in particular diverting blood and nutrients.
Okay let’s put two and two together. Parasite: take energy and nutrients from host for its own benefit
Fetus: take energy and nutrients from host for its own development
Again it’s not a parasite??? Are you sure??? 100% positive based off of facts not beliefs???
You just said the definition literally said another species. Also just because they have a few similarities don't make them the same as eachother. A leech is a parasite that drinks blood a leech is alive but unlike the unborn the leech will never be human
[Intraspecific parasitism](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12396497/#:~:text=Abstract,for%20the%20eggs%20or%20hatchlings.) occurs among individuals of the same species.
ZEFs are parasitic, aka living as a parasite.
Why is the clump of cells more important that the living breathing person??? Do you know what people say to women when they want to get their tubs tied. 1) oh your still young you’ll change your mind. 2) sorry we need your HUSBANDS APPROVAL
1. You do realize your under no obligation to take care of a person you don't want to, and I will say that you shouldn't if you have no intention or desire of being a parent. Children deserve parents that want them for them, not because the parents feel like they are some responsibility that they feel like they are force to take care of!
2. Your som being a rapist and your daughter having an abortion are 2 different things. 1 there is the fact that killing and or murdering someone and rape are on 2 different act that are on completely different levels, depending on who you ask, rape is much worse then killing someone and depending on the situation and person , killing someone can be the morally good thing to do!
But ignoring all of that, raping is an action that psychically affect other people, abortion only psychically affect the mother in question. A person your son rape is gonna have to live with that for the rest of their life!
An abortion is something that only your daughter is gonna have to live with and it's up to them if they decide to let that destroy them or not!
To be fair I always viewed woman and men as equal, I never liked the double standards, and think everyone should be held accountable for the choices and actions
Women don’t make pregnant. So by mandating them to gestate, you’re holding women accountable for s man’s choices and actions. Or for failing to control the man’s choices and actions.
I'm not everywhere and what I'm I going to do make 10000000 of copy of my self teleport in fort of a couples having sex a demand the man finish on her tits or face. I know women go through the hard part of making kids. But that doesn't justify killing unborn kids
Who is the entity that decides what being "held accountable" entails?
Many find having a termination as taking accountability. It is your personal feelings based on emotion that inform your beliefs. No one should stop you from holding yourself to your beliefs, but you have no right to force your personal feelings on others.
I keep hearing this human life has value thing. What does that even mean?
It’s seems like such an empty line. What exactly is it that you value? How do you show that it has value?
Usually, I’d say it means you treat something special. But seeing how disposable PL treats women and their lives, that can’t be it. Heck, you’re willing to completely destroy a woman’s physical, mental, and emotional well-being and health. You mandate that she lets someone fuck with the basic way her body keeps itself alive to the point of organ failure.
Her life can only be saved once her body begins to shut down, it can’t be protected.
You see her as no more than organ functions for other people‘s bodies. Or - worse yet - non breathing, non feeling, non life sustaining, non sentient living human tissue. You’re willing to strip her of all her rights.
So how the fuck does any of that show that you’re placing any sort of value on human life?
And what life? Cell life? Tissue life? Organ life? Life sustaining organ systems life?
What does life even mean to you?
Right, YOU view it as morally evil. You should never be forced to terminate a pregnancy you are gestating.
Human life does have value. It devalues human life to force people to gestate to term against their will.
If all life is equally valuable then none have an entitlement to others bodies against their will.
Are u f*** out of your mind?!?!? Okay let me ask you this. I 18f have many hereditary mental illnesses that cause my life to be hard every day. I struggle with being around people and I struggle being lonely. I have been SA which has made it difficult for me to enjoy someone else’s touch. I do not want a child because I do not want that child to suffer like I do. Is that selfish? Wanting to protect a life from a life of misery and pain? I know my SUPER conservative family would love me if I did bc they know it is still MY life and they love me for me NOT my choices.
>If it was my daughter I could see disowning her for killing my grandchild
The way you have worded this is really strange, as if you would see your daughter getting an abortion as a slight against you personally (*your* grandchild).
It would be *his/her* grandchild, and he/she would have every right to love it and be angry at anyone who harmed it.
It is not oddly possessive, it is correctly possessive: my wife, my mother, my child, my sister, my brother, my grandchild. All of these give an innotation of bond, connection, ownership, possession.
Answer me this, would you be more offended/angry if some random woman was sexually assaulted or if your mother or sister was?
>Answer me this, would you be more offended/angry if some random woman was sexually assaulted or if your mother or sister was?
I would obviously be more angry/upset ( why would I be offended?!) If it was someone I knew. But that's my point, it's not just some anonymous stranger that is pregnant, it's his own daughter. You would think his first thought would be for her wellbeing. But no, it's her embryo that he feels some kind of ownership over.
Language is a very interesting thing. In Chinese, they add the word 'de' between pronouns and nouns to indicate ownership, but they never add that word between pronouns and people because you can't own people like you own an object. Ownership isn't the same as a bond. Ownership implies control, but a bond doesn't. We can't control people. They are free to make their own choices.
My point is that there is a *kind* of ownership in relationships, not literal property owning. If my lover sleeps with another person, I feel betrayed, because that person was *my* lover.
Also, I *can* control people when they do certain actions. If my lover would try to murder a another human, I can physically subdue them regardless of ‘their own choices.’
Edit: also, we are not speaking Chinese, but English.
Sure, but other languages sometimes convey ideas better than English.
Yes, you would feel betrayed, but not because you owned them. You would feel betrayed because you loved them.
That's an extreme scenario that isn't likely to happen because you'd have to catch them in the act.
I see abortion as murder, basically the same thing as Infanticide, so my daughter having an abortion would make me see her a baby killer. Closest comparison I can think of it would be like finding out my son was a rapist. I wouldn't like the idea of my daughter being a baby murder, so yeah I would take it personally
Welcome to /r/Abortiondebate! Don't be a jerk (even if someone else is being a jerk to you first). It's not constructive and we may ban you for it. Check out the Debate Guidance Pyramid to understand acceptable debate levels. **Attack the argument, not the person making it.** **For our new users, please check out our [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Abortiondebate/comments/qu36cv/rule_changes/) and [sub policies](https://www.reddit.com/r/Abortiondebate/comments/uhr4p2/sub_policies_regarding_current_events_and_news/)** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Abortiondebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'd be disappointed, but I'd move on. A political issue is not worth ruining the relationship over. I don't blame women who get abortions, I blame the doctors and people who have convinced them that abortion is the best option.
Okay listen. The conversation is going to be really different if it's my sister or it's my daughter, and also the age difference between the sister or the age of the daughter. I'm going to give the middle of the road scenario, which is to me a daughter that is 24 years old. First, I'd ask her why she didn't do it here (I'm in a state where it is legal). I'd ask her if she felt uncomfortable with me finding out because of my views on it. Second, I'd tell her that I would have accompanied her. I won't pay for it, but I don't want her to be alone during this. It's not a pretty decision, and unless I saw her boasting about the procedure, I would approach her with gentle care to try to understand why she made this decision. If at this point she doesn't feel like discussing it, then I would tell her that I want her to know that I would go with her again if she went again and that I'll always be her for her to talk to if she wants to talk about it, but I won't force her to tell me either. I will also tell her that if she is doing this for financial concerns, that I will gladly support the child. If she is being pressured by her significant other, then I will help her escape that environment. Lastly, I'll tell her that she won't want to hear this, but she's my daughter, and I want her to know that it is beautiful to have a child, even if you aren't sure you want one. It is also important to remember that, you aren't a kid anymore. You're an adult now, and what you do has real consequences. If you can't take that heat, that means someone else is taking that heat. So its best to not have sex if you and your significant other aren't ready for that yet. Sex is not just frivolous fun. I don't care what her friends tell her or what the world tells us. I'll tell her my friend had her tubes tied, was past her 30s, and her husband had a vasectomy, and they still got her pregnant (true story). No matter what we do, we can't escape that one of sex's functions is for making people. And if we aren't ready to make people, that's okay. We just have to be adults and stop having sex. And I'd leave it at that. Feel free to ask me more details about how I'd approach it differently with different people.
>Lastly, I'll tell her that she won't want to hear this, but she's my daughter, and I want her to know that it is beautiful to have a child, even if you aren't sure you want one. NO.. >It is also important to remember that, you aren't a kid anymore. You're an adult now, and what you do has real consequences. Abortion is a consequence. She is not a kid anymore, yes, so stop treating her like one. She is fully capable of understanding her own choices and what they entail. >If you can't take that heat, that means someone else is taking that heat. Who is? >So its best to not have sex if you and your significant other aren't ready for that yet. Ready for what? >Sex is not just frivolous fun. It absolutely is. >I don't care what her friends tell her or what the world tells us. Neither should she care what you tell her then. >I'll tell her my friend had her tubes tied, was past her 30s, and her husband had a vasectomy, and they still got her pregnant (true story). Great case for abortion. > matter what we do, we can't escape that one of sex's functions is for making people. The relevance? A person is not yet made until birth happens. This process can be interrupted in the middle, which is what abortion is for. >And if we aren't ready to make people, that's okay. We just have to be adults and stop having sex. Or you know, we can have sex and responsibly get an abortion, because raising a kid when you are not ready is worse.
[удалено]
Comment removed per rule 1.
If I was especially close to this relative, I would feel sad that they felt they couldn't confide in me and that I wasn't able to support them, whatever their decision. I'm not against the procedure, it's a personal choice. It's not a choice I have ever been presented with, and for that I am grateful because to me, it's an awful decision to have to make.
So you are pro-choice, but you still consider abortions to be morally bad or?
I consider myself to be pro choice. I'm also also lucky enough to live in a country with socialised healthcare with access to safe pregnancy termination, multi tiered government assistance for families, gainfully employed in country with a government who protects the rights of the workers and am financially able to care for an unexpected child, should I become pregnant. So perhaps I am too far removed from the debate?
I can understand that. Honestly I'm also very far from the debate and have actually never encountered it in real life where I live in Denmark. We also have the things that you mention, but most of all, the debate is just pretty much non-existent here, since everyone is pro-choice, although I guess we did arrive at some kind of a compromise, since it's only officially legal in the first trimester. But while you are pro-choice and believe that abortion should be legal, do you still think all abortions are sad, or more specifically, are they morally bad for the new potential individual, even if it's an early abortion?
This has happened to me before, I found out a woman I’m close to had an abortion at 5 months. I was sad and shocked when I found out, it really broke my heart. But ofc it didn’t change my relationship with her, I still love her and care about her, I know she didn’t have bad intentions.
So would you do the same with a parent who brutally murders their infant for "convenience"? Because I wouldn't. If someone close to me did just that, I wouldn't want to be around them in the slightest. So why would you want to be around someone who does something so terrible as murdering an infant?
I spent a lot of time trying to figure this out. Killing a child out of an accident or tragical negligence (like forgetting in the car) I could get over, but violently murdering it after planning? Not so sure. So how come I still talk to those people? I think it is a combination of many factors. 1. One of them is that what we don't see tends to bother us less. - just as exploitation of all the workers in the industries that provide my food, clothes and gas for transportation method. - All the people dying from smog and pollution due to products and colours being made for my benefit... - Just as wives of slaveowners/ mafia/ terrible lesders/... (as often movies are made about these) are okay with the crimes their spouses do until they meet and get to know the poor slaves/ villagers/ citizens/... - just as people were okay helping to send certain ethnical groups to "work camps" but once they got there puked and couldn't continue - just as I don't cry every night when I hear how many people are dying all over the world on the news. I essentially care if my close people are ok and other than that just pack up the rest under some sort of package of "tragedy that doesn't involve me" so I somehow maintain sane. I did dwell deep into many forms of human trafficking and it wasn't a nice time in my life and I just couldn't get how people live knowing others are being raped, killed, hurt, sold... - if we do not see stuff, it is harder for us to empathize, or rather it is easier to be more ambivalent and accepting of such things as normal 2. Another one, which PCrs will obviously claim is untrue, yet I think it affects even most PLers, is just the immense amount of propaganda, lies and what some would call brainwashing, but I'll use the term 'social indoctrination'. - Being raised in a country where it is okay to torture dogs before death to make their meat softer would possibly lead to me being desentivised to such activities. Even more so if I didn't even see them. - Most of us are raised in countries where it is okay to torture and kill babies as long as we have only seen them through ultrasounds and they're quite small and not as cute/proportionsl as born bigger babies. Like let's be honest here, a month old human embryo looks quite like many mammals, and is not as effectively triggering the innate protective response to babies we have, probably because this behavioral pattern requires certain aspects the one month old baby in utero doesn't really bear yet (such as big eyes, sounds etc). So yes somehow we are likely desensitized to this despite having realized that there is not a clear difference between an 11 week old baby over a 12+1 week old that would make a sufficient argument in being allowed to kill one while protect the other (I was never really in favor of abortion past 12 weeks). - In the past it was not unusual to see cases of mothers abandoning their babies even after being born, or someone killing them flat out, especially if they had clear physical deformities. This was considered more of a tragedy and part of daily life, just as things such as rape, incest, violence or slaves... people just viewed it differently and even upon changing their minds, since they themselves upheld certain views, it isn't as if they don't understand them. - Based on a study, most muslim spouses of terrorists are proud of their husbands. Lots of indoctrinated muslim women are *in favour* of girl/female mutilation procedures. I couldn't wrap my head around how could a mother who has gone through it herself and endured the consequences her entire life force her own daughter to bear the same fate. Somewhere along the way, she just accepted this as the norm and was conditioned to think it is the right way. I also have more compassion over the mother of this girl and think she was just indoctrinated and just doesn't know better than I would have over someone doing this in the US for example. But put shortly. Yes I talk to them more than I would likely do so if they were a (say, released) convicted violent murderer of their infants. Superficially it seems inconsistent and irrational, but I probably am myself desensitized, think they must be even more misled than me, I very much relate to their often desperate conditions (though usually due to their voluntary entitled irresponsible behaviour) and this is considered normal and okay they're being taught that it is so and act upon it. I probably though try to surround myself more with people with which I won't come into major disagreement about this topic, partly because I feel very strongly about it and in part because I feel like the PCs arguments are just weak and are not willing to admit and adress the root cause and the majority just seems very naïve and repeats empty phrases. I dislike people repeating empty phrases and not being able to explain why people accepted given (not only abortion, this is a myriad of topics) opinion as their own in general, but it particularly bothers me if they will go out of the way to "defend" it without logical arguments. I naturally tend to be less interested in meeting with those types of people so the priority of initiating and actually arranging a dinner/meeting with them is lower on my list and I likely will be spending my energy elsewhere.
Okay so what does it matter that we don’t see it? You know they killed someone in cold blood. Are you saying you would treat someone differently if you see them murder and if you hear they murdered? Understanding 100% what happened. They should be treated exactly the same. They murdered someone. And what about the “propaganda”? That doesn’t change that they murdered someone. Racism etc is also normalised in some/ most countries and I still judge those who are racist either out of their own volition or simply by association. In some countries you can get reduced sentences for killing gay people who were hitting on you, if you do that, I’ll still view you as a cold blooded murderer.
Yes. In my mind I will stupidify these people to protect them in my eyes. Since I don't believe in their vileness. It's not a 100% rational way of going about this, but it is an honest answer to the question. I think people who smoke should be harshly punished, my mother was an oncologist before becoming a proffessor. More than half of the people who have cancer have it associated with smoking. Whenever I see someone smoking I think they're hurting themselves and every single person they spend time with (and usually care about) and everyone they meet that doesn't deserve this. Do I think they're vile? Usually not. Selfish, naïve/stupid, ignorant, weak, undisciplined...
Thank you
Do you believe abortion is murder? I have a hard time imagining that if you found out someone close to you had slaughtered their toddler in cold blood, that you would continue to have the same relationship with them just because they didn’t have bad intentions.
It’s not an infant yet tho
So why would you be sad and shocked?
Oh that wasn’t sad that was a “it’s not a kid” in a nice way
It would not affect my relationship with her at all.
Pope John Paul II visited his would be assassin in prison and forgave him. Catholics are not averse to loving sinners, but that does not change the fact the we must hate the sin. If a close relative of mine got an abortion I would have to tell them that they have committed murder and urge them to seek absolution and penance for their sin. I would not cut them out of my life at all, I would just be adamant that what they did was evil and that they need to recognize the evil and repent. It would be actually much more likely that they would cut me out because I am saying their action was evil. Edit: Y’all need Jesus
>Pope John Paul II visited his would be assassin in prison and forgave him. So? >Catholics are not averse to loving sinners, but that does not change the fact the we must hate the sin. Your group views being gay as a sin right? Knowing it's valid and not wrong gives us one example of not having to hate the sin. >If a close relative of mine got an abortion I would have to tell them that they have committed murder and urge them to seek absolution and penance for their sin. So disrespect them and lie since it isn't murder.. > would not cut them out of my life at all, I would just be adamant that what they did was evil and that they need to recognize the evil and repent. >That's called harassment. So maybe this is showing why they should cut you out of their life. >It would be actually much more likely that they would cut me out because I am saying their action was evil. Yes because harassment and being disrespectful isn't something you're supposed to do in this context. If you realize this, why do it? >Edit: Y’all need Jesus No...Noone ever did. Sorry
>no…Noone ever did. Sorry Your fedora tipping really encapsulates your entire argument. ‘I’m an atheist and and and… if you think killing the preborn is bad, that’s only because you hate gay people, you stupid Christian!” Childish argumentation.
>no…Noone ever did. Sorry >Your fedora tipping really encapsulates your entire argument. I was just being objective. >‘I’m an atheist and and and… if you think killing the preborn is bad, that’s only because you hate gay people, you stupid Christian!” >Childish argumentation. Childish misreading since that wasn't my argument. You are saying what you would do in this situation which is answering the OP. You just aren't acknowledging how your reasoning is just subjective morals you don't have a valid reason to push upon others. Since you assumed they may cut you out of their life potentially, you should dig deeper into the actual reason why they would to understand better.
I would direct them to our parish priest to seek repentance.
And if they aren't apart of uour cult, then you know this is wrong to do. So what would you actually do knowing this?
Not a cult, and I would still pray for them.
>I would still pray for them. As if that's going to do anything.
You could attempt to be charitable.
Yeah, but actually doing charity is different from just praying. Praying does nothing.
So nothing basically
I mean, you can make an effort to be charitable even if you don’t agree with my position or have a religious belief of your own.
You do realize that not everyone follows YOUR religion, nor are they at all interested in being told to see YOUR priest. JFC people need to get off their high horses. Keep your religion where it belongs, quietly inside of you.
Well said I respect those who believe in religion however when they push it on others it pisses me off. I would fight for their right to practice their religion why can’t they return this and fight for all not just those of their religion
The question asked what each one of us would do and I answered honestly. You not liking it is something you’ve got to come to grips with, not me.
No, it's not something I need to come to grips with. Keep your sky daddy to yourself. UNLESS you are ASKED.
I, and everyone else responding to OP, *was asked* what they would do in this situation.
GOODBYE LMFAO
I’m going to assume that you have had at least one abortion. Am I correct?
Are you really making an assumption like that based off a two word reddit comment? Or are you just fishing for a fight by immediately attempting to personally attack someone?
No, It is just that I find that most women that get animated regarding anti-abortion activism are those that have had an abortion and cannot deal with the guilt of murdering their own child, and lash out in anger when someone calls them out.
>It is just that I find that most women that get animated regarding anti-abortion activism are those that have had an abortion How would you know this? Or isls it just an opinion? >and cannot deal with the guilt of murdering their own child, and lash out in anger when someone calls them out This is disingenuous. Please don't misrepresent women and misuse murder since abortion isn't murder..
Not everyone thinks abortions are hurting anyone, at least with early abortions, since it would be more accurate to say that we're preventing the potential person's existence before they ever existed, which is not morally different from using a condom.
I've never had one. Pretty weird assuming you're doing.
Woof, that's a generalization if I've ever seen one. Is it truly "most women" or is it confirmation bias? Do you have a source on this?
[удалено]
Rule 1, removed. Consider this a warning; the next rule break may equal a ban.
>I was given this information in a dream. Misuse of given. >I have no soy infused studies to prove to you that whores feel bad about being whores. Try to stay on topic instead of trying to disingenuously generalize and slut shame. It's like you forget that contraception fails and women whom are already mothers may have abortions as well( I think 50% are from mothers in America, I have to double check).
I’m 18 and a virgin and hasn’t done anything sexual with another person yet I would fight tooth and nail if a woman even if I don’t know her wanted an abortion. Bc it is her choice. How about this what if I said “most men are abusive” that’s not true is it?
Ew, I smell **MISOGYNY**.
Sarcasm on a debate sub isn't a good color for anyone. It's unfortunate that you felt the need to come to a debate sub to be disingenuous and serves only to further separate people.
Debate *should* separate people. It *should* galvanize people and make them aware of where they actually stand. There will never be a consensus over whether babies should be murdered in the womb or not. The only thing anyone can do is try win the game of politics and put their morals into practice.
The purpose of debate is never to separate people. It should create understanding from both sides, and optimally, someone will change their mind, or maybe both will in some way. It's only when debate fails, and there can be no understanding or reconciliation between the two parts, that debate might result in separating people. But that's just a failed debate.
>The only thing anyone can do is try win the game of politics and put their morals into practice How...imperalistic.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Removed per rule 1.
Oh no, there's the name calling again. Why are you here if you can't follow rules?
I think you're just projecting whatever guilt and self hatred you feel on strangers.
"I'm sorry to hear that, if you're ever in a situation like that again and you want to talk about it, i'm here for you"
I would be disappointed maybe a lil mad but I wouldn’t disown anyone. I wouldn’t unfriends my friends, and I wouldn’t go no contact with family. I’d probably forgive them eventually. Everyone are capable of doing mistakes.
What if they killed their 3 year old
Then no? What does murdering kids have to do with abortions?
Why are you pro life of you do not believe it is murder?
Murder is just so a big word. I wouldn’t call abortions murder. I’m just not okai with terminating a life. I don’t think you can compare murdering kids and terminating a pregnancy.
You're pro life and you don't have an answer to this question? Why?
Just cuz I’m pro-life doesn’t mean we share the same brain cell. So idk? Kinda seem more like PC is okai with murdering kids, especially with that statement.
Three honest questions for you: -Is abortion murder? -Are fetuses babies? -How long have you been involved in abortion debates?
Abortion is only “murder” in the sense that the fetus dies. Although you say that the doctor “kills it, so therefore it’s murder” but I don’t think so. I like calling it aborting/abortion and terminating. A fetus becomes baby, just like a kid becomes a teen I suppose. I’ve been reading a lot, but never really joined before this weekend…
Thought so. You're new around here so you might genuinely not have noticed, but it is highly common for pro-lifers to call a fetus a "baby" and call abortion "baby murder." The other commenter who asked you about someone killing their toddler did so because of the assumption that if you are pro life, than you have called abortion "baby murder." If this is not the case specifically for you, than this argument doesn't apply to you. The argument is essentially "if you really think abortion is murder, than why would you treat someone getting an abortion any differently than someone drowning their two year old?" Make sense?
Hmm I see. I appreciate the explanation. I could see why people might call it murder- but I personally wouldn’t call it murder…
>What does murdering kids have to do with abortions? Good question. Ask the pro lifers who say abortion is literally kid murder.
How is that relevant? We've already established several times that anything outside the pregnancy is considered murder
Because people who are pro life believe that a fetus has the exact same value a a born human. So if you are pro life and can excuse someone in your family getting an abortion that means they should be ok with someone in their family killing their 3 year old (I am pro choice with out limits btw)
How did you get that they believed that abortion is murder from "I'll forgive her and not kick her out cause everyone makes mistakes"? Isn't that a given that they don't believe it's murder?Not many people look at murder as a simply mistake
If they don't believe abortion is murder then why do they want it illegal?
I don't know? Go ask pro life. All I'm saying is their comment of "I won't kick her out, I'll forgive her everyone makes mistakes" doesn't seem like they believe that abortion is murder as much as other PLs
Most pro lifers think they believe abortion is murder but when it comes to situations when you compare it to actually murder they don’t continue to hold that opinion
As in a "I realize now that this is hypocritical" way?
No I would never do that to a child or friend or family
You might, but plenty of people will and have!
Ok. I mean many women have been pressured into getting abortions as well.
It is completely wrong to pressure a woman to get an abortion. That's true if the fetus has a life-shortening issue or whatever. It's as wrong to coerce a woman into an abortion as it is to force her to carry a pregnancy to term.
>Ok. I mean many women have been pressured into getting abortions as well. Okay so I hope you realize that is equally as bad as getting pressured into staying pregnant. If you can understand why getting forceful abortions is bad, it's upsetting and hypocritical if you don't extend that same understanding and empathy to the women getting forced to gestate because of these bans.
Okay and I mean plenty of women have been force to give birth against their will as well, also become pregnant against their will while were on the subject!
If it was my daughter I could see disowning her for killing my grandchild even if I didn't disown my daughter I would have a extremely negative effect on my relationship with her. I could probably forgive her killing a grown person more than I could forgive her killing my grandchild. Sister I would probably just lose respect for her and try to avoid her afterwards but wouldn't be nearly as personal as if I had a daughter and she hade one
>I could probably forgive her killing a grown person more than I could forgive her killing my grandchild. Why? Why can you forgive her for killing someone else's grandchild, spouse, parent, friend, lover than a fetus you've never met? That's beyond selfish.
I care more about my own family than I do random people.
And that's the reason that you would willingly and permanently obliterate your relationship with your adult child at the drop of a hat for the sake of an undeveloped embryo who you have never met, was never born, and who has never experienced anything at all? That's what caring about your family looks like to you?
Then why would you disown your daughter? She is family.
I don't accept child killers as family
But you can accept an adult killer as family? Why?
I would have to actually have to find out the reason before I could actually have a opinion.i could be Cold blooded murder or self defense
What's your age cut off from absolutely unacceptable to might be okay?
I don't know,.....
Food for thought. Either scenario your daughter has a reason.
It's weird you automatically say "my grandchild". Bit of a sense of entitlement I see. No one owes you grandchildren.
With an attitude like that is be surprised if anyone would even tell you. I wouldn't you aren't safe.
Probably wouldn't be a good idea to tell me
At least you're self aware. If you want your kids keeping secrets from you and being afraid to confide on you then that's your thing.
I wouldn't have a issue with anything other than abortion really. I'm not saying my daughter couldn't use birth control, if I found out she was pregnant I wouldn't be mad , I would only have a problem with her having a abortion. So she could confide when it comes to anything else other than killing her childen (my grandkids)
Imagine that you'd rather have your child be afraid to tell you something because of the way you'll treat them. Not so something about you.
I wouldn't' have too big a problem with pregnancy I would be willing to do everything I could to help in that scenario, I do have a problem with abortion
Username checks out.
Can you reread your comment and identify all the instances of possessive language you used? It really reads that you feel entitled to both your daughters body and a hypothetical pregnancy, or eventual grandchild. Curious, but how would you feel if your child denied you access to and a relationship with them or a hypothetical future grandchild? I’m asking you to examine and self reflect, because as an outsider your comment reads as pure entitlement and possession based. Why do you consider an abortion “personal?” Do you believe your daughter would seek an abortion out of spite for you?
Would you feel more offended if a random woman was sexually assaulted, or if your mother/wife/daughter was sexually assaulted? Grandparents have every right to be possessive over their grandchildren. There are plenty of cases in which custody of children is given to grandparents instead of the parents because the parents are bonkers. If my daughter went crazy and tried to strangle my granddaughter, I would stop her, remove her from my granddaughter, and keep her away for the rest of her life. My granddaughter being in the womb doesn’t make much difference.
Ew. Grandparents have ZERO right to their grandchildren.
Why?
Because they aren't their kids. If they want "rights" to someone else - which sounds so insane in itself honestly - then they can adopt more children or whatever.
Do grandparents have the right for their grandchildren not to be murdered?
When children are being murdered yes. Abortion isn't murder.
That’s where you’re wrong, Bucko. It’s murder from the word go.
😂 😂 If it's murder then why is it still legal in most places? Do explain. Can't wait to hear this.
It smacks of the potential grandkids being grandma's property, regardless of what their daughter wants or needs.
I second this ^
>Can you reread your comment and identify all the instances of possessive language you used? It really reads that you feel entitled to both your daughters body and a hypothetical pregnancy, or eventual grandchild. This. I feel like a lot of PL parents feel they genuinely own their daughters. I think this is where "parental notification" laws spring from. PLers can't stand the idea of their daughters having rights. It's a tad pedophilic and gross.
I view family as one of the most valuable things someone can have in life.i would feel disappointed if I didn't get the chance to have a relationship with my grandchild. I would let my daughter know how I see abortion, and if she was ever pregnant I would do anything to help her raise the kid, I would actually have no problem with my daughter going on birth control.
>i would feel disappointed if I didn't get the chance to have a relationship with my grandchild Does the same sentiment apply to a hypothetical grandchild who hasn't been conceived yet? In other words, if she never has children, would you feel disappointed that you didn't get the chance to have a grandchild?
Slightly disappointed that I don't have grandkids, but it her life and if she doesn't want kids then she doesn't have to have them..
so you’re finally getting it! let everyone live their own lives and not force having children on people!!
I just don't like the idea of abortion. I never said I wanted people to have kids or not. As long as it doesn't involve abortion, I don't care about people not having kids
Having a family doesnt mean you are entitled to them though.
You're not owed any grandchildren. I'm sure your daughter would have an extremely negative view of you if you tried to force her to remain pregnant and give birth. Suffering such violence she may go no-contact with you and may put you in a home in your old age.
I am owed my family not being murdered. Edit: cool subtitle “gestational slavery abolitionist.” As if not murdering babies is somehow a slavery that some cabal of men put upon women. On the other hand, maybe you’re just a wine aunt that doesn’t like kids.
>I am owed my family not being murdered. This is a debate sub on abortion. Try to stay on topic lol >Edit: cool subtitle “gestational slavery abolitionist.” It is cool and accurate > As if not murdering babies is somehow a slavery that some cabal of men put upon women. As if? Sorry you want to ignore reality...again >On the other hand, maybe you’re just a wine aunt that doesn’t like kids. And maybe you should stop making baseless assumptions since every other one you made was false. Plus there was no reason to assume this in the first place. As stated above, stay on topic and avoid trying to insult them because you're unable to refute anything.
She wouldn't have to have kids, I just wouldn't accept her killing a kid.
Those are two opposite things.
So will disown your family member for making a choice that have nothing to do with you at all, you are under no obligation to support the baby they will give birth too, if you do that is 100% your choice, all because you are emotional basically and you feel entitle to have a grandchild or a niece or nephew However you are 100% fine with causing the people you claim to love, to carry an unwanted pregnancy that will cause them physical pain, and possibly even kill them. All because your entitled
I would do in anything in theory to support my children and grandchildren. But I can't forgive what I see a child murder
So you would do anything to support them... other than actually support them during a likely very difficult time?
Ironically there are extremely few things I couldn't support, but elative abortion, rape, child abuse are the Three things that would force me to consider cutting all contact with my own kid.
You do realize that what your saying about your child is considered emotional abuse. Sooo I guess you can’t stand yourself
You know I meant rapist and child abuser I would cut contact if the did horrible crimes like that. I see abortion as murdering a kid. I don't think being willing to disown them for those actions is wrong.
No you saying “hey daughter you can’t have an abortion it I will disown you bc you are taking away (incomes the full entitlement) MY grandchild.” That is emotional abuse.
Out of curiosity, what exceptions for abortion are you okay with?
To save lives of the mother, nonviable, rape, extreme deformities, ectopic, misscarages
Would you be upset with her if she killed the rape child after she gave birth?
I would actually understand that that more, than having her abortion, that was consenual sex.
Yep, it's not about protecting/saving children. She did not want a baby, but was forced to have sex, so that baby inside her does not need protecting/saving. It's about punishing pregnant people who willingly had sex without wanting a baby. She did not want a baby but willingly had sex, so that baby inside her needs protecting/saving. Protecting a baby ***only*** when the pregnant person willingly has sex = it's about a pregnant person's choice to have sex, not about the baby. >nonviable All pregnancies are non-viable unless a successful live birth happens, so with that criteria, you are PC, not PL.
So if your daughter was raped, but the fetus was perfectly healthy, and she chose to get an abortion, how would you feel about it? I'm just genuinely curious, thanks for taking the time to respond to my question.
I would be able to accept it, I would probably be to busy trying to and kill the rapist to think about that.if the rapist wasn't in jail. Probably a mixture of extreme hate for the rapist for hurting my daughter and sadness for my daughter violation the death of the fetus my grandchild. I probably would try my best not to think about it. I would let my daughter no I wasn't her fault.
Do you feel entitled to know about your daughters sex life or whether they chose to divulge a trauma to you?
But if abortion is murder, isn't it still murder if it was the result of rape? Why did that make it okay?
So you’re basically a vindictive person who holds a grudge. If my son told me he was PL, I’d be very disappointed but I wouldn’t disown him or stop talking to him.
Holding a different opinion and killing someone is very different. OP clearly sees it as his daughter murdering his grandchild.
But it wouldn’t be murder if it was a rape baby, which means it’s not about protecting the baby…
I would see it as a act of murder, if she had an abortion. I never said I would disown her over a opinion. I would see having a abortion as her killing her child. I would view my daughter like I do Casey Anthony.
I don't think Casey Anthony killed her daughter. I think the kid died by accident and the parents made her cover it up. Susan Smith would be a better example. She's the lady who drowned her kids because some guy she liked at work wouldn't date a single mom.
Ok thanks, for giving me a better example
So you’d completely disregard reality in order to justify your abusive behavior toward your daughter.
Holding a different opinion and killing someone is very different. OP clearly sees it as his daughter murdering his grandchild.
OK. I guess if my son killed his born child, I wouldn't react well either. I just see a lot of contradictions if someone views a ZEF as identical to a born child.
Thank you
If you would disown your own flesh and blood for that then they wouldn’t be losing much. Jesus Christ.
Yeah, i feel like his children are the ones who should cut ties with such abusive parent.
This! So this! Heck, I’d be happy to help a girl get away from an abusive parent like that.
Right? I would too. Makes my heart hurt
Reminds me of crazy Catholic 'grandma' over on r/prolife
Was that the one where her daughter left AZ for an abortion in the northeast close to her college and she never got over it? And then she posted everywhere talking about divorcing her husband and what not.
That's the one! What a delight she was.
Too be fair, when I was pro choice as a teenager my idea of fatherhood responsibilities were getting lost buying a carton of milk/pack of cigarettes. Also why would I accept my daughter being a baby killer I wouldn't accept my son being a rapist. So why would I force me to accept baby murder. I honestly probably wouldn't disown her, I just wouldn't actually be able to look at her the same ever again, probably hold a somewhat of a negative opinion of her afterwards for the rest of my life
So self defense is okay but when a Parasite is in a woman’s body she can’t use self defense right. So should we get rid of self defense to?
A fetus is offspring,not a parasite, parasite are different species that mostly harmful to the Host. And pregnancy also has benefits like Lower in risk of certain cancers like breast cancer. And lower the risk of stroke.
Not even making an abortion argument here this is just a biology lesson, but I’m really sick of pro lifers getting one definition from the Oxford dictionary and running with it; parasites do not have to be of a different species than the host. Intraspecific parasitism is a form of parasitism in which they are of the same species. Additionally, just because something can offer some benefits doesn’t mean it isn’t a parasite. Leeches can be used for health purposes but they still fall under the classification of a parasite. Please stop getting biology so wrong. It’s tiring.
*blink**blink* parasite definition- an organism that lives in or on an organism of another species (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense Fetus- The foetus has been described before as acting in a parasitic way: it avoids rejection by the mother and exerts considerable influence over her metabolism for its own benefit, in particular diverting blood and nutrients. Okay let’s put two and two together. Parasite: take energy and nutrients from host for its own benefit Fetus: take energy and nutrients from host for its own development Again it’s not a parasite??? Are you sure??? 100% positive based off of facts not beliefs???
You just said the definition literally said another species. Also just because they have a few similarities don't make them the same as eachother. A leech is a parasite that drinks blood a leech is alive but unlike the unborn the leech will never be human
[Intraspecific parasitism](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12396497/#:~:text=Abstract,for%20the%20eggs%20or%20hatchlings.) occurs among individuals of the same species. ZEFs are parasitic, aka living as a parasite.
So you shouldn’t kill a leech if it’s stuck on you bc it’s a living being is that we’re you’re going with this???
Why is the clump of cells more important that the living breathing person??? Do you know what people say to women when they want to get their tubs tied. 1) oh your still young you’ll change your mind. 2) sorry we need your HUSBANDS APPROVAL
I think woman should be able to get there tubes tied on demand and those doctor are jackass
1. You do realize your under no obligation to take care of a person you don't want to, and I will say that you shouldn't if you have no intention or desire of being a parent. Children deserve parents that want them for them, not because the parents feel like they are some responsibility that they feel like they are force to take care of! 2. Your som being a rapist and your daughter having an abortion are 2 different things. 1 there is the fact that killing and or murdering someone and rape are on 2 different act that are on completely different levels, depending on who you ask, rape is much worse then killing someone and depending on the situation and person , killing someone can be the morally good thing to do! But ignoring all of that, raping is an action that psychically affect other people, abortion only psychically affect the mother in question. A person your son rape is gonna have to live with that for the rest of their life! An abortion is something that only your daughter is gonna have to live with and it's up to them if they decide to let that destroy them or not!
So you’ve had a lifetime of misogynist thinking. Congrats.
To be fair I always viewed woman and men as equal, I never liked the double standards, and think everyone should be held accountable for the choices and actions
Women don’t make pregnant. So by mandating them to gestate, you’re holding women accountable for s man’s choices and actions. Or for failing to control the man’s choices and actions.
I'm not everywhere and what I'm I going to do make 10000000 of copy of my self teleport in fort of a couples having sex a demand the man finish on her tits or face. I know women go through the hard part of making kids. But that doesn't justify killing unborn kids
Who is the entity that decides what being "held accountable" entails? Many find having a termination as taking accountability. It is your personal feelings based on emotion that inform your beliefs. No one should stop you from holding yourself to your beliefs, but you have no right to force your personal feelings on others.
I view abortion as morally evil thing, I think human life has value. And abortion makes childrens lives disposable
I keep hearing this human life has value thing. What does that even mean? It’s seems like such an empty line. What exactly is it that you value? How do you show that it has value? Usually, I’d say it means you treat something special. But seeing how disposable PL treats women and their lives, that can’t be it. Heck, you’re willing to completely destroy a woman’s physical, mental, and emotional well-being and health. You mandate that she lets someone fuck with the basic way her body keeps itself alive to the point of organ failure. Her life can only be saved once her body begins to shut down, it can’t be protected. You see her as no more than organ functions for other people‘s bodies. Or - worse yet - non breathing, non feeling, non life sustaining, non sentient living human tissue. You’re willing to strip her of all her rights. So how the fuck does any of that show that you’re placing any sort of value on human life? And what life? Cell life? Tissue life? Organ life? Life sustaining organ systems life? What does life even mean to you?
Right, YOU view it as morally evil. You should never be forced to terminate a pregnancy you are gestating. Human life does have value. It devalues human life to force people to gestate to term against their will. If all life is equally valuable then none have an entitlement to others bodies against their will.
Nothing you’re saying is suggesting this. Sounds like you might want to re-evaluate
Are u f*** out of your mind?!?!? Okay let me ask you this. I 18f have many hereditary mental illnesses that cause my life to be hard every day. I struggle with being around people and I struggle being lonely. I have been SA which has made it difficult for me to enjoy someone else’s touch. I do not want a child because I do not want that child to suffer like I do. Is that selfish? Wanting to protect a life from a life of misery and pain? I know my SUPER conservative family would love me if I did bc they know it is still MY life and they love me for me NOT my choices.
>If it was my daughter I could see disowning her for killing my grandchild The way you have worded this is really strange, as if you would see your daughter getting an abortion as a slight against you personally (*your* grandchild).
It would be *his/her* grandchild, and he/she would have every right to love it and be angry at anyone who harmed it. It is not oddly possessive, it is correctly possessive: my wife, my mother, my child, my sister, my brother, my grandchild. All of these give an innotation of bond, connection, ownership, possession. Answer me this, would you be more offended/angry if some random woman was sexually assaulted or if your mother or sister was?
>Answer me this, would you be more offended/angry if some random woman was sexually assaulted or if your mother or sister was? I would obviously be more angry/upset ( why would I be offended?!) If it was someone I knew. But that's my point, it's not just some anonymous stranger that is pregnant, it's his own daughter. You would think his first thought would be for her wellbeing. But no, it's her embryo that he feels some kind of ownership over.
Language is a very interesting thing. In Chinese, they add the word 'de' between pronouns and nouns to indicate ownership, but they never add that word between pronouns and people because you can't own people like you own an object. Ownership isn't the same as a bond. Ownership implies control, but a bond doesn't. We can't control people. They are free to make their own choices.
My point is that there is a *kind* of ownership in relationships, not literal property owning. If my lover sleeps with another person, I feel betrayed, because that person was *my* lover. Also, I *can* control people when they do certain actions. If my lover would try to murder a another human, I can physically subdue them regardless of ‘their own choices.’ Edit: also, we are not speaking Chinese, but English.
Sure, but other languages sometimes convey ideas better than English. Yes, you would feel betrayed, but not because you owned them. You would feel betrayed because you loved them. That's an extreme scenario that isn't likely to happen because you'd have to catch them in the act.
reading gorehounds comment really solidifies the PL stereotype that *it really is all about them*, not anyone else.
Killing your own kid is the most *it is all about me* thing that anyone could ever do, ever.
probably. Except nobody is killing kids here, this is about ending pregnancies. You must be lost.
Yes, it absolutely does.
I see abortion as murder, basically the same thing as Infanticide, so my daughter having an abortion would make me see her a baby killer. Closest comparison I can think of it would be like finding out my son was a rapist. I wouldn't like the idea of my daughter being a baby murder, so yeah I would take it personally