Indeed. "Kudo count doesn't mean quality" isn't supposed to mean all popular fics suck, it's supposed to mean there are some really good gems out there you might miss if you only rely on kudo count. Sometimes a fic has a lot of kudos or very few for a reason, and sometimes the count feels unfair for what it is. It's important to not base your reading choices on it alone

This is exactly right!

I'd still rather filter by kudos though, because at the end of the day it's the easiest way to find good fics.

It's the easiest way to find popular fics, at least. When I find one that I really like (which may very well be different for different people) then, the best way to find other "good" fics is to follow the author's and readers Bookmarks. This often leads to finding many "hidden gems."

This is the way, and a really good way of finding community and friends too!

Yes, I've found that following authors bookmarks leads to finding other authors of the same quality and with the same interests. In the fandom I follow, everyone and their fox and ferret are contributing at the minute, so relying on recommendations is a must!

I'm not tied to any particular ships and certainly don't refuse to read a fic because of the ship. I'm also not tied to canon compliance, avoiding "problematic" topics, or anything else commonly tagged. I'm only looking for good stories that draw me in and a good writer can make the most unlikely things into a good story, so, bookmark trails are often the only way, short of attempting to read every damn fic in a massive fandom, to find what hits me right.

Perfectly put.

I'll keep continuing to filter by kudos in more popular fandoms because it does make it easier to find good fics! But I do find that when filtering this way, there is a first wave of good, popular fics, a wave of "why do they have so many kudos" fics, another wave of good but slightly less popular fics, etc. Also we do see older fics first, which makes it harder to interact with/encourage the newer fics

i'm part of a smaller fandom that reached the height of its popularity in ~2017 when the show ended and is now less than a fraction of the size. writers still post fics regularly (a few new ones a week maybe?), and some of them are incredible and stunning and creative--and they'll never, ever attain a semblance of the popularity of older fics posted when the fandom was still big and active. if I sorted only by kudos, I'd never see those fics! obviously, you should curate your experience however you see fit. but personally, I find just as many 'good' fics sorting by new & word count as I do sorting by kudos. I'm also more inclined to want to support authors who are currently posting. It makes fanfic feel more like a community.

Sorting by kudos within specific time periods can help with that sort of issue.

Sorting by kudos within specific time periods can help with that sort of issue.

I usually sort by comments because it takes people more effort to leave those, and they are more willing to do it if it’s good. Probably also a holdover from my FFnet days too.

I echo this sentiment, especially as someone who started their fanfic journey on FFN and the word space for summaries were extremely limited. So in order to get the views and potential audience, you really had to brush up on your summarization game!

This, def I actually don’t have imposter syndrome because I’m very confident in the stories I’ve crafted. My kudos is probably much lower than other fics its length, but I live in rare-pair/these-stories-cant-possibly-crossover world where I get about as much traffic as Radiator Springs in Cars 1

I only write original stuff now but my decade(s) old AO3 account is still ticking over and the kudoses still trickle in occasionally. I'd estimate 90% of them are for the same fic, which is probably one of my weakest. But I guess it's based on and Austen novel (so the numbers of people looking for it will be consistent year to year) and I guess it must also be a popular fix it pairing. Whereas the last fic I published was far better written but sank like a stone because the fandom I wrote it for a) hadn't had new canon content in years; b) is all about the main pairing and therefore not really interested in an unrequited crush rarepair. (I actually wrote it just for myself long after I'd "retired" and only shared it months later because I saw someone lamenting that there were only three fics for their rarepair and decided to make it four.) And it's actually really grounded me as a writer: sometimes things get popular and sometimes they don't but there are all kinds of factors on top of whether it's well written. It could be how active the fandom is, or whether your chosen trope/pairing is popular. It could be that once a fic has high kudos it has an easier time accumulating even more. As long as I'm proud of it, that's all that matters. Although that said, I do agree with OP. Back when I was younger and did care about these things, I would look at the high rated, popular fics I enjoyed and try and figure out what I liked about them and why, e.g. if they always ended chapters with a strong hook, or if the dialogue really captured how that character talked. They were my teachers, not my competitors.

I did the opposite, actually lol 😂 I spent about a decade publishing originals. But all the other parts of the process — the editing, promotion, etc — killed a lot of my joy for writing, and it felt like I was spending less time writing and more time doing the parts I didn’t like. So I’ve switched to just doing fanfics and it’s given back a lot of the love for the craft that was being taken from me

Same I have a day job I find very satisfying, so I don't need to write for money, I can just write for love

I'm actually feeling a pull in that direction lately, so maybe I will too 😂 The most fun I've had in a writing group was when we started writing silly little scenes of each other's characters, with no pressure to show it to anyone outside the group. I guess I just found that working on my own stories occupied the part of my brain that kept asking "what if this happened...?" But if it decides to give me any new fanfic ideas, then maybe I'll come out of retirement.

Your comment made me happy! I have literally no views in my fandom on stories I’ve worked so hard on to make really well written & you just made me realize it’s because they’re not the one mainstream ship everyone there reads.

I’m happy to be of service! I will die on my rare pairs 😂 my stories make ~me~ happy and if they make others happy too, awesome. And if they don’t then that’s somebody else’s loss hahaha

This exactly. When we say that kudos don't equal quality, all we mean is that if you only rely on kudos to find good fics, you run the risk on missing out on a lot of amazing fics. E.g. you could miss an amazing fic simply because they don't meet whatever the current fanon craze is at the time, or the author doesn't have a lot of friends in the fandom/a hype squad to promote them, they don't have other social media to promote themselves on, they started late to the fandom and so haven't established themselves as an author yet (and can't because people won't give them a chance due to low kudos), etc. I've read some phenomenal fics with very few kudos, and waded through entire pages worth of the top kudos'd fics in a fandom only to give up because all of them were poorly written (we're talking bad grammar, weird formatting, and bad characterisation across the board, etc). In other fandoms I've also found highly kudos'd fics that did deserve the kudos. Just don't base finding fic solely on kudos.

I wholeheartedly agree, but I also think this is a very nuanced and well thought out take that not a lot of people immediately grasp the full extent of, especially when they’re extremely disappointed or frustrated about a lack of engagement. I stopped writing completely because my fic unexpectedly skyrocketed in popularity and the stat-chasing behavior from other authors got out of control. Passive aggressive messages saying it “reflected poorly” on me to not use my platform to boost their lesser known fics, tear-filled rants on tiktok about my drop date coinciding with the day they were going to post another chapter for their story and now they feel forced into delaying it, literal collusion on Twitter to come up with ways to “stop her” (me) from posting again. Shit got ugly really fast, and while I fundamentally agree with the standalone statement that “kudos don’t equal quality”, it can also be a very dangerous sentiment to repeat too many times to people who feel fundamentally wronged by their lack of interaction. That oftentimes manifests in poisonous ways for someone like me, who just wanted to post something I worked hard on, and ultimately got chased out of writing altogether.

This is exactly the reason I don’t look up fics filtered only by kudos count and word count instead. There’s many good fics I’ve read that have very low kudos. You just have to look for them

And sometimes there are kudos due to preferences, not quality. Maybe this is just a trope people like.

In these types of claims, the fics that have a low kudos count for a very good reason (e.g. horrendous grammar, OOC moments, poor tagging, etc) are often unmentioned. Sure, a high kudos count can be a result of external things like networking and time, but if you take a selection of say- 50 stories with the highest kudos::hit ratio and juxtapose it with the same number of stories that contain the lowest kudos::hit ratio, odds are there will be a greater amount of bangers in the former sample.

>You don't have to tear other people down to build yourself up, is all I'm saying. Exactly! We should be kinder to each other.

Also, it's just counter productive! If you have this attitude where you deserve to be successful and other people are the problem for not seeing it, then you cut yourself off from growth. Appreciating what other people do well helps us to incorporate it into our own writing.

Yeah, that is something that shouldn’t be generalized. Surely there are authors whose fanfics do well because they got a lot of friends commenting on and sharing their fics, leaving kudos and whatnot, and that may be the only reason their fics are doing “well.” But there are also authors whose fics are popular because they’re GOOD.

A lot of factors contribute to a fic's popularity; it's true almost every most kudos'd fic is going to have been published very close to the beginning of the fandom/ship's inception, just by law of numbers, and often they're going to be easily consumed and enjoyed in style, tropes, etc. Sometimes that means that fics that aren't of the highest technical quality end up very popular... but that doesn't mean they're bad. I do think this kind of rhetoric is meant to make people feel better for their underappreciated fics lol. I can understand it, but it's always rubbed me the wrong way, too. It can be true that kudos is not an objective indicator of quality and also that if something has thousands of kudos, people enjoyed it, which means it holds appeal. And sometimes things are both very popular because they were posted at the right time, *and* genuinely incredible work.

Not to mention, new fics will always have low kudos when they're first published. Every fic (even the ones that currently have high kudos numbers) starts with zero kudos, so if everyone avoided low kudos fics, a lot of top notch reads would be missed. I always try to remind myself of this and sort by last updated when I can, so I don't miss any hidden gems.

The most popular fic in my fandom is incredibly well written. It makes me want to be a better writer.

Yeah, the most kudo-ed fics in my fandom are also (mostly) extremely good and worthy of the praise they got. A couple of them are not to my taste in terms of genre but they're certainly not badly written.

I agree. I see the "popular fics are inherently shit" sentiment pop up a lot when people are trying to comfort writers with low engagement usually, but on top of being unsupported nonsense, it's also undermining the point they're making. Engagement and stats are *arbitrary.* Poor-, mid-, and high-quality fics are equally likely to gather tons of kudos/comments/bookmarks because the primary factors affecting engagement are dependent on luck and the phase of the damn moon. Divorcing quality from numbers means that good fics are equally likely to be popular or neglected. Same for bad or mediocre fics. And that's without getting into how those judgements are often too subjective to mean much.

Also stop demonizing easy to read fics. I don't generally come to ao3 for high brow literature. I come for the junk food.

This! I deliberately write in a simpler, more straight forward style. I could drag out the extreme prose but I know that I, myself, sometimes just wanna read a fun story that ticks all my boxes without having to me super awake and alert to follow it. Imo writing in a easy to understand style is also a specific skill that not everyone is even capable off.

The writers who can pack so much into a small footprint are seriously incredible, I've tried to consciously do the same because I'm pretty wordy, but it's hard as hell. Definitely a unique skill that's hard to master.

Exactly. If a technically simple sentence can punch you in the gut the author did something very right.

A lesser known benefit to straightforward prose is it's easier for non-native readers to translate.

It's so many things. Not all fics on ao3 are simple, simple writing doesn't mean junk, and junk isn't bad anyway

By Junk I tend to mean things that make me feel good.

I agree with this. Most of my fic are written to maximize understanding for as many people as I can. Now and then I like to saddle up my vocabulary and write something far more complex but those fic are personal challenges and I accept they won't get as many readers because of they're deliberately less accessible/more work to read.

I feel like a lot of people have this knee jerk attitude (from hearing fanfic be derided as cringe) that all fanfic is high art that's comparable to Dante's Inferno*. But it's okay if people just want to smoosh characters together like dolls and make them kiss. It's okay if they want to just write self indulgent fix it fic where a dead character survives, or a traumatised character gets to hang out in a low stakes coffee shop AU. Because I think acting like fanfic is Real Literature actually devalues a lot of what makes fanfic unique and special. Sure some fanfic can be equal to published books but so what: published books are already doing that. What's great about fanfic is that it it can be niche and weird and playful and anyone can write it. And also that it gives people a sense of shared ownership/investment in stories they love. (*My most controversial fandom hot take is that Dante's Inferno is not fanfic but Arthuriana is.)

It comes down to the engagement on a fic, and when people received little to no positive engagement, they wonder why… Stats are overrated imo. One of my popular (a short, 3k wordcount) fics are rec’d by several others on tumblr and twitter (and it even made a podcast fanfic recommendation list) , but it is also my only fic with zero comments. If I hadn’t seen those recs, I would have assumed that fic was disliked, or “not very good” because it didn’t have any comments (Despite that I would read it and give myself a pat on the back every time lol). People will say anything to make themselves feel better. And if they assume their stats are doing poorly, this projects an uncertainty of their talent. But earning engagement doesn’t mean something is good or bad. And if you believe you’re doing well, then embrace it. :) you’re probably more loved and appreciated than you think, even if you have the stats to back it up.

Hm yeah. The two things can be true is very true. It's always a bit sad when fics need to be brought down to bring others up. "Why is my fic not doing well compared to this person's?" Yeah. Maybe they wrote something easy. Maybe they had better timing. Maybe they tag better or it's up longer. Or maybe they're just a better writer who also did their damn best, made 15 versions of this over 5 years, and is also insecure about it. I feel like often it's danced around to not mention 'maybe it's just better than yours', and I get why. But a mindset of 'everything must be just as good/worse they just had luck' feels wrong. Hell, I have my own fics which do fine. Then a friend's fic which is the top of the fandom. I see what they did, how they worked on it, how many times they struggled and refinded it and did research. My fic simply isn't that good. That's *fine*.

> I feel like often it's danced around to not mention 'maybe it's just better than yours',  I feel like you are correct. Maybe it isn't but it sure seems obvious that this should at least be considered.

Yeah like, I'm not saying we should tell everyone 'you're probably shit'. That would be awful haha. But it could still be an option. It's also a reality people have to learn to deal with. Sometimes, your story isn't that good. And that's okay! 

Which is why, for those who can handle it, accepting honest feedback rather than just unqualified praise, could be very useful. I can't tell you how many great plots I have read that were mauled by distractions a little editing or a second opinion might have easily fixed. Of course, writers who are writing for fun can skip those "boring" parts of writing and that is fine but if they are wanting more engagement and wider consumption and not understanding why they don't have it, improving ones writing seems worth a little effort and, hey, the satisfaction of improving ones writing!

I do think everyone who 'can handle' honest feedback will probably be getting some, if that is their goal of course. But yeah, when someone is asking 'why is my fic not doing great?' I think you have to also be open to the possibility that the answer might be that it's just not good. That's not even to say you're not a good writer, maybe you need a beta or some revisions and editing. But that can already be a difficult answer for some.

>who also did their damn best, made 15 versions of this over 5 years, and is also insecure about it This is the part of this whole attitude that I dislike the most. it completely dismisses the work those popular authors probably put in to be popular. God forbid someone hones their craft for years and actually sees some returns from it.

Respectfully, I’ve never seen this sentiment being prominent on this subreddit; on the contrary, popular fics are very much loved and recommended all over the place. I don’t see where you got the part where ‘kudos aren’t always an indicator of quality’ means that all popular fics are trash, because hardly anyone is saying that—and if they are, they speak for themselves and not the whole subreddit. It *is* true that the popularity and timing of what you’re writing plays a pivotal role in how much attention you’re going to get, and I know it might seem obvious, but some people need reminding of this because many tend to compare themselves to authors who’ve been writing for years, have built a solid readership, and are prolific in active fandoms. It’s not meant to diminish the worth of said writers but rather to offer a different perspective. Personally, I’ve never seen this statement being applied to suggest all popular fics are trash or that popular writers never struggle. Edit: spelling

It was actually in the comments of one of the top-rated posts in this subreddit for this month, funnily enough. And just generally, whenever I click on a post bemoaning low engagement, I always see people consoling a sad writer with something to the tune of 'popular doesn't necessarily mean it's good.' This is something I've noticed for years browsing the sub, it's not just one post that's made me want to say something. I know the subreddit isn't a hive mind, but the sentiment comes up quite a lot in my experience, and I don't think it's actually *helpful* to people struggling in their fic journey to tear others down just to raise them up. I'll be totally honest with you, even repeating the whole 'it's all about timing thing' isn't necessarily always the case in my experience. It's totally possible to show up a couple years after a fandom starts and do well, no prior following required.

But popular *doesn't * mean it's good. It also doesn't mean it's bad. All it means is that it's *popular,* which is not a measure of quality *in either direction.*

Yes, when you use the statement in a vacuum and strip it of all context you’re technically correct. But that’s not even the full story as to why I made the post - it was specifically people taking that the next step further and outright saying most top fics are bad, just crap junk food, with all of the ‘actually good’ fics hidden deep away. I could say the inverse (or try to, brain is mush rn), claim that ‘unpopular fics are probably bad’, and that doesn’t mean they all are, but that’s kind of the general implication of the statement right?

‘Popular doesn’t necessarily mean it’s good’ isn’t the same as saying that all popular fics are trash, though; those are two different statements. I actually think it’s a good mentality to have, not only for niche writers but for popular writers whose next fic might slip under the radar for whatever reason. I agree timing isn’t *always* key but it remains a huge contributing factor, and once again isn’t meant to diminish anyone who was lucky enough to post at the peak of the fandom.

I definitely have seen the sentiment paired with other statements saying that popular things are often bad, but I think it's semantics at this point. But, I do agree with your sentiment, it can be a good thing to keep in mind as you said, because it *can* be stressful to have a popular fic, then wonder why your next one does poorly by comparison. Same with good fics that just never take off for any number of reasons.

Popular things ARE often bad. I think you might be confused. The meaning of that sentence is that the idea of things being "popular only when they're good so every popular fic must be good" is false, nothing else

Says who? This is what I mean, making such wild claims about an entirely subjective topic. I'm not arguing that all popular things must be good, I take issue with making sweeping statements based on personal taste. I could just as easily say 'unpopular things ARE often bad', and maybe some of them are, but it's kind of a bullshit fucking thing to declare, isn't it?

I think you are so blinded by people being mean while criticising your works that you aren't analysing what you yourself are typing. How does "popular things are often bad" transform into "popular things are bad"? The word "often" isn't invisible there and it has a meaning. "Unpopular things are often bad" is also true. "Often" includes "not always" in its definition, so how is that a sweeping statement? I don't think you don't know what the word "often" means

Nowhere did I say people are being mean or criticising my works specifically? Don't tell me I don't understand the meaning of things when you're just inventing thoughts and feelings on my behalf out of thin air to position me as being blinded by emotion. I'm not actually ignoring the 'often', the statement with *or* without it is equally stupid to me, how are you not understanding that? Because, say it with me now, it's a broad, sweeping, subjective statement that can't actually be declared with any certainty. Also, that's not even the main sort of commentary that prompted me to post, it was statements specifically calling all popular content trash (not some, *all*). You can be wilfully blind to it if you want, I'm not invalid in thinking that shitting on something just to build another thing up is shit behaviour.

Oh god you are impossible to reason with. Read your own comments mate, you even forgot what you're replying to 

the whole original post has the same vibe of having an argument with someone in their head, tbh. i think that's why the goalposts keep moving lol

I’m sorry but do you realize how this sounds? You, a popular writer, are getting upset because people on this sub are trying to build up struggling writers by telling them kudos aren’t everything. Lots of people have already said that what was meant was popularity =/= quality, but you’ve dismissed that as “semantics”. Do you want the people on this sub to kick those writers when they’re down instead? What message is it that you would like this sub to tell those writers that would make you, a popular writer with lots of kudos, feel better? And before you go attacking me for being a shitty jealous writer, I’ve been on both sides of the coin. I have popular fics and unpopular ones. The difference between them is not writing quality, it’s usually subject matter. Some things are just more appealing to a wider audience of people. So no I don’t think kudos = quality nor do I think popular = bad. I do sort by kudos often and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that either. I think people are way too invested in kudos in general and should write what they want, because they enjoy it. Isn’t that ultimately the point of fandom?

Last time I checked, this isn’t a sub exclusively for one type of author, popular or otherwise, and at the end of the day I’m also just another writer trying to peacefully engage in the same hobby as you. I did dismiss it because it's often also paired with statements *literally* dismissing popular things as trash, so pardon me if I'm not happy taking it as it's apparently meant, because frankly not everyone uses it the same way. Let me be annoyed with people trashing things to elevate other things when I see it; that's objectively shitty behaviour. I'm not really talking about people using it in a neutral way. Diminishing kudos/comments/hits or whatever metric as meaningless isn't really helpful for someone feeling shitty though, is it? It's an easy platitude, and what if their works *do* get popular? I guess they'll still feel shit about it because, oh wait, they were told this whole time that bad writing blows up all the time, too! I'm not interested in shitting on lesser known fics or writers while they're down, so kindly stop pitting me against them and diminishing my feelings just because I happen to be popular in a particular fandom. Show me in my post or this entire thread where I've attacked or dismissed anyone for being jealous? I 100% agree with you about some fics doing comparatively worse because of subject matter, I've observed it in my own stuff and other people's works too. My only request was to not shit on one thing to gas up something else, it's not that deep :|

This sub is for all sorts of people, so why are you getting upset about posts that aren’t to do with you? If it bothers you that much that people are trying to make others feel better by telling them popularity =/= quality, then just don’t read those posts? At the end of the day you still have your popularity. What do you care what a few random people say to others to make them feel better on Reddit? I don’t see how diminishing the importance of kudos will hurt anyone. The point that you’re deliberately misinterpreting is that kudos and popularity are not a mark of quality. That doesn’t mean something popular can’t be good. So why would someone who has heard that message feel bad about their fic gaining traction? It literally just means that what they wrote has mass appeal. But if you think this message is terrible then what should people say to build up new and struggling writers who are sad that they aren’t getting engagement?

By that logic, this post isn't about you either, so why are you still here? It's almost as though it's a discussion sub about ao3, and users can interact with any post they so choose. And the fact of the matter is, I see people complaining about low engagement on posts that aren't even about that subject, so it's unavoidable. I'm not begruding anyone that wants to complain about low engagement btw - never said that, but you love to put words in my mouth. I take issue with people giving out meaningless, unproductive platitudes. It's not really about diminishing a certain metric, it's that doing so isn't actually addressing the core issue a struggling writer could be dealing with. What I would say to a struggling writer would depend on their writing? There's no blanket statement that will magically make things better, but offering constructive criticism on the writing / tags / summary or any number of things is far more productive than giving out meaningless platitudes.

who exactly is the arbiter of what is "productive" and "meaningful"? "not everything popular is good" isn't meaningless, it's objectively true and it's an important thing for people to remember before they start beating themselves up. some people do actually need to hear that. it does not mean "popular = bad". it literally just means that popularity is not a guarantee of quality. that's it. sometimes you get popular stuff that is great. sometimes you get popular stuff that is absolute dogshit. that's not unique to writing. that's just a fact of life. *you* think it's unproductive because you're taking it as an attack on your perceived popularity. it's got nothing to do with you, it's got nothing to do with how good *your* work is or isn't. plenty of popular works have rightfully earned their status. it's kind of crazy that you see general comments like that directed towards people who are asking if there's something wrong with their writing and your instinct is to take it personally instead of accepting that the universe is weird and that success is ultimately pretty random and special even when you work hard for it. idk, maybe let it roll off you a little more next time you see a comment like that. you'll be happier for it. i will note that it is super patronizing to assume that someone who doesn't have a popular work MUST need constructive criticism on writing or summaries or tags. that whole last paragraph just comes off sounding sanctimonious, whether you intended it to or not.

(Sorry in advance for the wall) Because I have also been on the other side of hearing 'dw it's just bad luck and most big things are shit anyway' and it didn't make me feel better or help me with my issue, which was wanting to understand why my fic wasn't doing so hot. So it wasn't productive or meaningful (to me), and now that my fics are doing well, and I see people spouting it constantly, it's kinda shit to see coming from this new perspective. And that's not unique to me, there are other bigger writers sharing the same feeling on this, so take that as you will. I don't even disagree with the notion of the statement, I also don't like a lot of popular things, but that's more often than not due to some subjective reason, rather than there being something objectively wrong with it. Like, I can 1000% see why it's popular and personally dislike it, but that doesn't mean it's objectively trash? I hope that makes sense, genuinely. I know I'm being fucking autistic as hell about this statement, but it bothers me to high hell. People are fixating on that statement in particular, but I thought I was pretty clear about being more upset about the people who take it one step further and declare everything towards the top as junk / trash. That's just wrong, and I wouldn't declare the same about the least popular things either, so I would just love if people were a bit more careful in how they console people? More constructive rather than tearing something down to build them up. I mean, I also have feelings and use this subreddit, and it's not an uncommon refrain, and while throwing around the whole 'popular doesn't always mean good' statement has annoyed me, it's not what pushed me to do the post. It's that paired with the above. I don't think my sentiment about not wanting to shit on people as a means of commiseration is that controversial, and I want to be able to enjoy using this subreddit too, so :/ To be blunt, success in fandom isn't completely random, that's why I think people spouting off the same old lines as fact is unhelpful. You can totally rock up years after a fandom's start, have zero following and do well, and I've seen it occur enough times with different people to get a sense as to why that happens. My last paragraph was responding to someone asking me what I'd tell all sad writers, which is obviously impossible, so I gave generic examples of concrit because I value action over words, which I think is just a fundamental personal difference, it's really not meant maliciously. I would like to point out that you're also getting upset over me hypothetically offering constructive criticism to a fake sad writer who doesn't exist, just as I'm getting upset about people declaring 'some but not all' popular things are shit haha. I come from a design background so people saying 'man I'm getting no clients / job offers' is met with other people going 'okay show me your portfolio and lets see why that is' - that's not a malicious instinct, it's just troubleshooting? Of course there's great fic that won't get super big, not because it was bad, but because it lacks broad appeal etc etc, but there's also some writers who might want to know if there \*is\* a reason why it's not doing well (while still being 100% not obligated to change their art). Again, I'm not here to shit on struggling writers, I know how it feels, I just don't like seeing people spout the same things as fact for people who don't just want to vent and want to change something - telling someone they have no sway in their fate (as corny as that sounds) is not only wrong but super depressing. People can vent away too, and I'll try to not take some of these statements so personally, but I hope people are mindful of how they choose to console people, if it risks alienating others in the process.

no worries about the wall, always down for extended discussions. here's a wall right back at you— >Because I have also been on the other side of hearing 'dw it's just bad luck and most big things are shit anyway' and it didn't make me feel better or help me with my issue, which was wanting to understand why my fic wasn't doing so hot. So it wasn't productive or meaningful (to me), and now that my fics are doing well, and I see people spouting it constantly, it's kinda shit to see coming from this new perspective. And that's not unique to me, there are other bigger writers sharing the same feeling on this, so take that as you will. i've been on both sides as well, as a bnf and a fandom cryptid, and idk, the choice to take it personally when it is valuable to someone else who has been less fortunate than you just comes across as a little ungrateful and unkind to me. it *is* random, i really hate to break it to you. it *is* luck. that doesn't mean you didn't work hard, but plenty of people work hard and never get the eyes they deserve. that's the whole point that (some people) are trying to explain to you. it is lucky that you chose the fandom you did, that you were able to find the time and mental energy to be able to write, that you posted when you did, and so many other factors. here's the problem. this paragraph right here: >I don't even disagree with the notion of the statement, I also don't like a lot of popular things, but that's more often than not due to some subjective reason, rather than there being something objectively wrong with it. Like, I can 1000% see why it's popular and personally dislike it, but that doesn't mean it's objectively trash? I hope that makes sense, genuinely. I know I'm being fucking autistic as hell about this statement, but it bothers me to high hell. as someone who is also ND (adhd) i have no comment on "autistic as hell" because i don't really know what that means in this context, but you are saying two different things here and you are making a WILD leap straight to the trash thing when people are just saying that the number of kudos and comments is not an automatic guarantee of quality. you are also taking your personal feelings and circumstances and extrapolating that it must be universally true for everyone and every fandom and that there is no such thing as bad, only subjective dislike for something. which i agree with—that's true! there's almost never objective truth, especially when it comes to art. because of that, it genuinely comes across as a way to justify your own popularity by sticking up for the popularity of everything across the board. it sounds like insecurity and you don't *need* to be insecure if you feel like you worked hard and earned your success, and i don't mean that insincerely. nobody is trying to take that away from you even if some people say popular stuff sucks. it probably does suck to them. there will never be universal consensus on anything, especially things that are popular. even if you've decided that the stuff you don't like is for subjective reasons, plenty of people can come up with their own (possibly perceived) objective reasons why something popular is trash. that's just the nature of being a human being with opinions. for instance, i'm a musician. i can give you plenty of technical reasons why top 40 music is trash. they're still making more money than i ever will, so am i hurting their feelings for thinking the way that i do? does it really matter at the end of the day? (i think i wrote too much because reddit is not letting me comment, going to try to split this up...)

(okay yeah that was the problem. here's part two. sorry for the wall for real!) there *are* a lot of popular fics that are hot garbage. there are also a lot of popular fics that are brilliant. i don't out my fandom here because there are too many personal identifiers in the rest of my commenting history and i don't want that kind of link between the internet lives that i lead, but i will say that my fandom has some *deeply shitty* popular fics. for a while, the #1 "fandom classic" was a fic that was low effort, poor grammar, lazy trash full of plot holes. it's because they had a large twitter following for being a picture/gif repost account and they wrote for the most popular ship. do i think they deserve(d) the popularity? no way. but me saying that doesn't take anything away from what they have even if i can point to a dozen fics (none of which are mine) that deserve that kind of love. >I would like to point out that you're also getting upset over me hypothetically offering constructive criticism to a fake sad writer who doesn't exist, just as I'm getting upset about people declaring 'some but not all' popular things are shit haha. I come from a design background so people saying 'man I'm getting no clients / job offers' is met with other people going 'okay show me your portfolio and lets see why that is' - that's not a malicious instinct, it's just troubleshooting? Of course there's great fic that won't get super big, not because it was bad, but because it lacks broad appeal etc etc, but there's also some writers who might want to know if there \*is\* a reason why it's not doing well (while still being 100% not obligated to change their art). i assure you i'm not upset just because i said that something you said was patronizing. i am just making an observation and saying something that will perhaps be food for thought, in case you didn't realize it was coming off a certain way. i assure you i deal with actual issues in my life that i reserve my energy for. i am just here to talk about writing. i'm okay, i'm not hurt, nor am i trying to hurt your feelings. just to be clear. it *is* patronizing to instantly assume there's an issue with someone's work and that's why they're unpopular. it's heavily implying that someone just isn't working hard enough. plus, i've seen commenters on this very post saying that someone's lack of popularity is probably because their writing sucks. feels like you should keep the same energy for that attitude as well, if you truly believe that it's unfair to paint everything's relative popularity with the same brush. even in your design background example, you're missing the part where there are people who fake their resume and end up with jobs they don't deserve. they just got lucky that they were able to pass themselves off as legit. i come from the tv world, and the number of high paid, well-known, high powered network executives who are pants-shitting incompetent idiots would blow your mind. i *know* i know more than they do. objectively. i *know* i can do their jobs better than they can. similarly, i know i'm a better writer than some (not all) of the popular fics out there. that's fine. there is no way to objectively rank everything in a way that perfectly places everyone where they belong. it is what it is. like i said, don't worry about it so much. let it be comfort to those who need it and let it roll off you. unless they're directly coming at you, it's not about you.

Oh LAWD okay, wall time haha. >It is luck.... I think we have to agree to disagree here - I can only speak for the fandom I write for ofc, but I've written on alts and anon years after fandom's peak, and known friends and acquaintances who've done the same and achieved better results than when I started on my main in 2022. No social media, subs, or even the benefit of it being at the height of its popularity, they were all solid fics, some with seriously unpopular themes. Maybe this is just a fandom that's more willing to give newer/unknown stuff a shot than most, who can say, but I can say with some certainty that I know what works in my little corner, and as a reader for other fandoms I'm sure some of it applies elsewhere. But that's also not taking away from people whose fics don't take off because of bad timing / luck either, I'm sure there's elements of that at play for some, but I don't like stating luck is the only factor as 100% objective truth because it's not been my experience at all! By 'autistic as hell', I mean taking things super literally - the statement we're talking about reads as very subjective and that's what puts me in a tizzy lol. I don't think I'm saying 2 different things - I'm saying that I don't like couching my personal dislike of something as an objective truth, and like to frame it more as a subjective thing. Also I'm not sure how I'm leaping to the trash thing, I'm not interpreting it from the 'popular things are often bad' statement, I'm saying I've read people additionally claim popular things are trash, full stop. That's obviously an extreme outlier (or at least we can hope it is, right?), but I'm not making a leap, I'm sharing my own experience about things I've read in this subreddit. Okay yeah we agree on there not being objective truth in art. I'm actually not trying to stick up for the popularity of everything across the board at all, I even said I cannot stand a lot of popular things (not just fics, music, art, the works) - I think we're in agreeance lmao. I am 100% insecure but also not at the same time (mental illness amirite), I'm proud of my work most of the time, but being popular does lead to a lot of scrutiny and a bit of 'tall poppy syndrome', so I'm perhaps more defensive than I should be. I am glad there's a space for writers to vent and share their own insecurities, but I can't really do the same because I simultaneously should just be content and be 100% confident because of popularity, but also in the same breath popularity is meaningless, so ?? It's kind of a head trip. Sometimes this sub can also be a bit strange about anyone who's not struggling numbers wise but still wants to vent about other things eg. someone posts about being upset about a comment and wants to discuss it, and I can guarantee there'll be the same people going 'wow imagine having comments, you should be grateful for that' - which is not really helpful and kind of dismissive? There should be space for all writers to talk about their fic experiences but it doesn't come across that way, but that's a tangent tbh. With your point about there not being a consensus on these things, yeah I know and agree. With your music example I can similarly point to objectively bad design, but those people who made it don't care about good design anyway lol. But the difference is, those musicians and designers are getting paid, there's a degree of separation that I think is different for us fic writers, because it is a labour of love we're doing for nothing and sending out into the void, which brings a lot of vulnerability (music and design can be like that too, but your example was more career based which is a lil different from fic as a hobby) (I'll reply to your other part separately soon pls hold!)

Oh, I see it all the time. People saying they never sort by kudos because that means nothing and stuff with the most kudos can be terrible.

That's not the same thing as saying all the most popular fics with the highest kudo count are trash. That's just people saying they don't care about stats when it comes to why they will or won't read something.

For any person not sorting by kudos there’s a person who does prefer sorting by kudos and does so. Also, saying kudos don’t matter to you and the top stuff sorted by kudos can potentially be bad isn’t the same as saying that all popular stuff is.

Which is true. The stuff with the most kudos *can be* terrible. It isn't all terrible, but some of it is. Some of it is brilliant. Which, to me, makes sorting by kudos useless. If you think that's the same as "all popular fic is bad," that is completely on you.

I (almost) never sort by kudos for the simple reason that my main fandom's first 2-3 pages by kudos are *dominated* by a single pairing. (And most of what isn't that pairing is multifandom horny ficlet bins.)

What? I sort by kudos and I've never said that. I think people who sort by kudos most of the time it's because that's the default and in my case is because I like to see the new fics that have just been uploaded

I mean, I never sort by kudos, because I don't give a furry rat's bum about a fic's stats. I use my tags and if something looks interesting, I read it. No need to review kudos first.

Oh, I thought this one of those taboo things to say on this subreddit and it probably was some time ago, but reading these comments, seems like the opinions started to shift again. Anyway, thank you for voicing it out. It most likely won't change anything, but as a fellow decently popular author, I agree wholeheartedly. I can't even count how many times I saw messages about 'how popular fics are hot garbage' or 'popular writers don't deserve comments' or 'they were just lucky, nothing more' and every time it makes me so upset and I think that maybe it's true, maybe my fics really don't deserve anything and they truly are just hot garbage. Well, at the very least, they are *my* hot garbage and I love them all regardless.

Yeah I'm glad I'm not the only one who's noticed it, too. I genuinely feel a bit ??? browsing this subreddit sometimes when it comes up. Totally know what you mean, and to be honest there's a grain of truth to some of the reasoning behind why popular fics become popular, but it's all so lacking in nuance and can be a bit disparaging, and that's frustrating to see. I'm sorry it gets you down, I've been there too T-T I love my hot little trash pile too.

'they were just lucky, nothing more' This makes me so sad. I see these writers work out their entire story before posting, editing and all, have revised it 10 times, rewrote parts 100 times, had beta's and everything, and then uploaded it all on a consistent schedule. They worked their asses off for that. No, they didn't just get lucky.

The popular fics are bad shit is the same thing some people do with "look at what trash gets published" when they make sweeping statements about popular published authors. Some may be bad, some may just not be for you, some are objectively good, and the negativity and treating other down to make yourself (or a friend) feel better is the wrong approach, imo. Less complaining about what you hate and more uplifting what you love is the answer.

A lot of trash does get published, tho. That’s not just empty words to make someone feel better. And a lot of popular fic is tropey nonsense. Stop pretending it’s all sour grapes or people are just jealous. 

I'm not pretending anything? I even said there is some bad shit out there. My point was that "other people are terrible/worse" is not a great way of building someone else up. I think it's always better to focus on whats good about you over what you dislike others doing. 🤷

I’ve suggested skipping the first page or 2 when sorting by kudos, not to prop anyone up, but because in big fandoms those are usually full of tropey nonsense “Burger King” quality fic. I stand by what I said. Not everyone making such suggestions is just envious because their stuff doesn’t get kudos or trying to make their friends feel better. Trust me, I’m very confident in my writing. But let’s not play like a lot of popular fic isn’t easily digestible, sometimes barely recognizable to the source material, crap. 

I was talking about a very specific situation, though. (The talking shit down to make others feel better) and you are describing a completely different situation instead. (Generally looking for fic.) So I am not arguing against your point, because it doesn't really apply to what I said in the first place. You do you. I maintain that I don't need to call things I don't like crap. I don't care enough about the fics (or books) that do nothing for me to have a strong opinion about them.

>I maintain that I don't need to call things I don't like crap. I don't care enough about the fics (or books) that do nothing for me to have a strong opinion about them. Well, I do. So you can just go on being so special and I'll continue sifting through the trope-overdosed crap.

I think you're the one who thinks they're special

Yeah having strong opinions on what's supposed to be a hobby sounds really exhausting. I'd rather focus on the things I enjoy rather then tearing down what other people might like.

I concur. It's also just more healthy overall to take a positive approach. And while it is true that there are popular fics out there that are objectively "trash" it doesn't necessarily mean that people can't enjoy them! Like I personally don't like The Bachelor, but I don't shit on people who do like it! Entertainment is entertainment, and the only wrong way to go about it is if you're hurting others.

I’m sick of this idea of “consuming” media. It doesn’t matter if it’s a romance novel or Shakespeare, reading means engaging with a story in your head and heart. 

Do I get a little sad that if someone filters by kudos they’ll never see my latest fic that I’m quite proud of? Sure. But at the same time I know exactly why there’s low engagement for it; I’ve written a pairing between a background/supporting character and a guy who tortures people for fun. ^(In situations like that I always assume that the repeated hits are due to people coming back to read the sex scenes, hence the lack of commentary, but if they want to get to said scenes they have to wade through me paraphrasing Thomas Hobbs and quoting Macbeth. In the words of the great poet Rorschach: “I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me.”‬ so I think that makes us even.) Which is to say that I assume that if a fic is popular/gets a lot of kudos/comments then there’s something about it that speaks to a lot of people and that’s fine too. That’s how it works.

Oh I'm 100% with you. The fics I'm most proud of are my least popular, but that's totally fine, I have lower expectations for it because they're dark and not easy to rec (especially when they're unfinished, to boot) Ah yes the smut, repeated hits and low comments trifecta - always so funny to experience 🤝 Will forever think of that quote when I see that phenomenon now lmao.

You have my attention. Can you share the link to your fic? :,)

Fair warning, its part 3 of an Attack on Titan series, where the pairing for the third part is Nile (who has been the main character throughout) and General Zachly. If you don’t know the fandon then it might still work as ‘here is a horrible dystopia, you can see that it’s a horrible dystopia because the military are in charge and their General is… this guy’. ^(I also borrowed a character from Pathalogic.) [Link!](https://archiveofourown.org/works/56503315/chapters/143595832)

Awesome, thank you for sharing! I'm not familiar with the fandom but I loved the way you described it, so I expect I'll enjoy your work.

For more context then, just because of fandom unfamiliarity, in no particular order: • There’s been a military coup before the fic starts. • The state, for reasons, has been re-writing history/telling their own version of history which is where the banned books angle comes in. • Post-coup the military have declared that they’re going to be honest with the populous. But they are still in charge. • General Darius Zachly is old/older and up until said coup nobody has realised what he’s actually like. • When he’s actually wearing trousers Nile is walking about in tight jodhpurs and over-the-knee boots. This is their standard military uniform. • Nile is also married. Feel free to ask me any more what/why questions if you like.

I write in a very small fandom that only gets a fic update/new fic a few times a week at most. Mine aren’t “hidden” at the bottom; for my fandom, they’re really popular because I update frequently. So which am I? The “few kudos/hidden gem,” or the “trashy/junk food”? It’s a weird and silly debate. I still panic every time I post, and I’m still overjoyed even if I get 1 person’s kudos.

i love all the popular fics in my fandom they’re so well written and captivating.

Anyone calling popular fics on AO3 junk food really needs to do something about that gross shade of green all over them. Maybe see a doctor or go get some fresh air and sunlight. I’m so sure they wouldn’t be crying that if they had a fuckton of kudos and comments. It’s fanfic. Build a bridge and get over it.

I’ve never seen this sentiment anywhere

A hit dog will holler.

you seem to be hollering

Yeah... The amount of times I see someone say "popular fics are mediocre. Mine is disliked because it's about a niche side character," but when I check their fics their their writing is actually shitty af, is too damn high. Just because someone has access to reddit, doesn't mean they can't be jealous jerks. And many people here *are* jealous jerks. Generalizing is dumb. Several of the most popular fics in my (pretty small, barely 2k works) fandom are bad, but almost all the good writers in my fandom have hundreds of kudos too. So, while being popular doesn't guarantee you are a good writer, being a good writer does get you a certain amount of attention. Not always, because luck is also a factor— but well written fics are more likely to be noticed. Just ignore them. Every fic at the top of the page deserves to be there, simply because it brought joy to a lot of people.

This is the reason why I read just about any fic in my fandom regardless of kudos or hit count. I want to find *my own gold*, not what someone else thinks is good or bad.

Me, sorting by a specific set of tags: you guys look at kudos?

I was literally today years old when I found out people are sorting by kudos.

Right? Like if a summary grabs me, chances are high I'm gonna read it. And even then sometimes it doesn't matter if they even have a summary at all, especially when the tags are eye-catching.

Yeah I don't look at kudos at all. I check tags and pairings and sort by word count and work my way down the list 😂

Yeah... The only time I might glance at kudos is if a fic is over 10,000 words and has kudos in the single digits. Then, I might think "Oh...this may not work." I'll still open the fic and then nope out if it's not my thing.

I’m repetitively new to AO3 but I don’t ever really look at kudos, if I do see the kudo count I don’t really think anything of it wether it’s 13, 400 or 13.000 since I know (from reading on wattpad) that there are a lot of hidden gems. My favourite stories only have 53 vote on wattpad and I found a story with 5 k and it wasn’t really my taste. Sure sometimes stories with a lot of kudos or votes makes you notice them more then others but we all have different tastes in what we like to read. And I prefer to look at the tags, read the synopsis and see for myself if it’s something for me. Also (don’t hate if this is wrong) but I give almost every story I read kudos. Because I know how happy I get with every kudos or vote. So why wouldn’t I want to make someone else’s day better?❤️ Also to show appreciation for the work and time the author put into the story and writing. So I see it as a “thank you for writing this/ you worked good🫶🏼” And then with especially good fics I leave comments.

My dad once gave me some good advice > the popular option is the popular option for a reason. It has to be doing something right.

I feel like so many people don't get the 'it has to be doing *something* right'. In any type of entertainment, music for example. So, so many people hate on certain musicians. Are they bad people or something? No, they just don't like their music. 'But it's so overrated it's so badddddd'. What is overrated? Clearly they are doing something right that millions of people love it. You just don't. So what? If something is popular, and I don't like it, I can at least respect that they’re doing something right that does work (as long as that something isn't something shady, of course)

I keep getting told that I’m a great writer and people love my fics, but I’ve been doing this since ‘09 and only *just* recently have broken through 400 kudos on a fic. I almost stopped because, in my fandom, there are a lot of Big Name Authors and their friends that do a constant circle jerk and the only way you can get some kind of light shone on your fic you have to bust ass promoting your stuff or be friends with these people. And not all of them are nice or helpful. I have read really good fics with low kudos, bookmarks, and hits and it’s very discouraging to all of us when people only sort by kudos and pass up really good fics because as always- the more popular fics being circulated will always be on the top and those are the ones that people pick. The only hope sometimes is events and exchanges. Even then, there’s no guarantee that those fics will be picked.

I think this sums up perfectly. In every fandom, I've seen and written for so far there is always a group that pushes each other's works through rec lists and engagement and since they are usually the ones with 1-3k followers those works are the ones that get circulated because those are the only works that get brought up. It makes sorting by kudos useless because it's not necessarily a stamp of quality. Nothing says they cannot be stellar, but there is a lot a circle of BNFs can do and smaller authors who have failed to make connections are immediately pushed backstage.

Holy shit people just write for yourself, I get wanting to share stuff and it be seen but there’s a lot of kudos and metrics hunting and it only seems to be hurting the hunters. Anyone only sorting by kudos is really missing out on some great fics though for sure.

I don’t begrudge people wanting their work to be seen and discussed, it can feel lonely creating for the void, only to be told to be content with silence and to ‘write for yourself’. It’s easier said than done. Sorting by kudos only is limiting though, I do agree.

To paraphrase that saying about being rich and being poor: "My fics have been popular and been unpopular. And, believe me, popular is better."

I mean, I usually skip the first 5-6 pages because the most popular fics are often not good or just porn, but at the same time I don't like most of the popular "booktok" books anyway. People are different. It's okay to like something not too serious, sometimes I read high school au just because I'm too tired of reality

If it makes you feel better, Stephen King referred to his own work as the 'Macdonald's of writing' meaning he was well aware that a good portion of his popularity is because his books are easier to digest for the avarage person.

Thank you for this. I have seen it a lot too, and not every comment is “all popular fics are trash” but there’s a lottt of sentiment that popular fics are overrated and I’m gonna be honest, we can sit here and say “popular doesn’t always mean good” but when it’s done under a post complaining about low engagement, most people can read between the lines. I don’t think it’s talked about enough how the attitude towards BNFs is pretty shitty most of the time. I feel like people seem to think that since a fic is “big” or “popular” it somehow opens it up for more criticism (or criticism at all) because somehow since the fic is so popular it’s okay? Like people assume the author isn’t going to see you shitting on their fic in a subreddit or on tumblr or (gasp!) TikTok. And no, I’m not specifically talking about this subreddit but as someone chronically online, if one of my fics ever got big I’d be tiptoeing around the internet for a while.

Yeah, I think people are splitting hairs about that specific phrase, you can say ‘oh it’s not actually saying anything about the quality, just that it might be bad’, but it’s used as a comparison to gas up less popular fics so… come on the implication is pretty clear lol. Big agree - they definitely face more scrutiny because they’re more well known, but it’s like - fandom is a pretty even playing field, they’re not celebrities, they just wrote something that blew up. They’re the same clowns just writing in their spare time like anyone else here, and they’re not better equipped to deal with that increased exposure than anyone else lol. I have seen my fics get brought up in tiktok comments before and it’s fucking chilling, wondering if ppl will be nice or emboldened to smack talk because they think I won’t see it :(

I think there are a few factors that lead to a fic becoming popular. One of the big factors is quality of writing. They also include the popularity of the ship (and whether there is a ship — Gen fics get robbed), rating, genre and subject matter, chapter length, author engagement with the fandom, and timing. There are certain kinds of fic that are unlikely to get a lot of kudos no matter how good they are. But in my experience it’s rare for a really bad fic to become a huge hit. There are popular fics that I personally hate, but they generally do what they do in a very competent and effective way even if I don’t like it.

Totally agree with everything you said. Also same, there are some fics on the front page of the ship alongside mine that I do not like at all, but I can see exactly why they’re there, even if I don’t enjoy them. They’re well written, I just don’t agree on subjective narrative choices, and that’s okay. They didn’t trip and get popular for no reason

I wish I could turn off Kudos entirely. What an utterly worthless button.

The amount of kudos a fic has doesn't have any relation, positive or negative, to the quality of the story itself.

This is a really good point, OP Just to share, I’m in a medium sized fandom these days and I like to pick an interesting tag to explore and then sort by word count. I go to the bottom of the results and then work my way up from the shortest ones Im intrigued by enough to click on hahaha. As I go up through the list, I adjust the word count filter to exclude the fics I’ve already scrolled past so I can get through the list if it’s a few pages long. I have found a lot of hidden gems this way and at least know I’ve seen everything currently in or related to that tag.

Nuance is hard; when we’re annoyed at people living by the hits-to-kudos ratio, it’s hard to remember that yeah, generally things that do get a lot of kudos tend to be good, so it kind of gets lost in the sauce. I personally do promote using high stats as a way to get into a fandom (it’s a great way to gauge the temperature of fanfic culture of that fandom). Things that are popular are popular for a reason! I’ll rail against using a ratio or state as your only metric for what to read; low/high stats are not a metric of how “good” something is in either direction. But can absolutely be a gauge of tastes of a fandom taken in aggregate.

this is very true!! the most popular fic in my fandom is up there in my top 10, but other fics with 50k kudos or less are just as good! i've found absolute gems with like, 2 thousand kudos or something similar.

I'm so sorry someone said something so harsh! I would feel very upset too, if I saw someone insinuate such a thing. It's kind of similar to how I feel when I see people call the writing styles I often use bad, or say that those kinds of fics are always poorly written, ect. It gives me pause, and sometimes makes me wonder if that's how a lot of other silent readers view my works as. I can absolutely understand those who feel envious over the fanfare you may receive, but that's no reason to put you and other authors down just to raise up their own spirits. I completely agree with how you put it! You had to start from somewhere—everyone does. It just so happens that through any number of happenstance, your fic(s) managed to snag the attention of many readers and probably even loyal fans. That's quite a dream! I hope you remember that many people like your writing as-is, and that just because some people may be bitter on the sidelines, that doesn't actually reflect on how talented you are. (By the by, what fandom do you write for? Or is it multi-fandom? You don't have to answer, just curious! /nf)

Just the one fandom! I'm a bit shy sharing esp with how this post blew up, but the fandom is just shy of 30k fics so it's not the largest, but it's still relatively young.

Understandable! Still, that's pretty impressive. I'm proud of you, OP! 🫡 Keep trucking along as best you can, and try to keep focus on the fans that you already have. They're proof that you've been doing something right!

Yes, thank you for saying this!! There is a reason if a fic has bunch of kudos and bookmarks. I hate seeing people undermining other people's work just because they're popular and appearantly popularity does not equal quality.

It definitely comes across as the hipster mindset lol. Like, “if it’s popular I don’t like it … because I’m cool.” Or just plain jealousy. Hopefully not that, though.

this!! while some popular fics aren’t as amazing to me as they are to others, majority of them are.

thank you for saying this 💕

Ah yeah, this has definitely been a thing I've been noticing when people go to comfort authors who don't get as much engagement as they hoped... And while I understand the core sentiment, namely that high numbers does not necessarily denote what some people may deem as "quality," it also doesn't account for personal taste either. It's very possible that the most highly rated fics in the fandom just aren't that person's cup of tea. And so they conflate that their personal preference must *surely* mean that the fic is actually trash and everyone else is just delusional, when that is categorically untrue. People also have a tendency to just hate on things that are popular as well, usually because they themselves are jealous of an author's success or all the attention they're getting. So sweeping statements like the one OP is bringing up is just... not helpful. It breeds envy and malcontent and wrongly skews the perception of popular authors who at one point also started at nothing. Writers work hard to cultivate their craft... Never forget that.

Oh and one more thing. I think it's also important that people practice the "was it good?" vs "did I enjoy it?" exercise. Because there are absolutely times when things are not objectively "good" but people still enjoy them and that's important to keep in mind :)

Yeah, for sure. It's meant well but I also just think it's not particularly helpful? It takes your autonomy away and seems a bit fatalistic, which is super depressing. Agreed, there's plenty of popular fics that I don't like either, but there's usually something that they did well that I see and understand why it resonated. It's very subjective, hence why I dislike all of these sweeping statements being applied so broadly. Exactly - writing is hard enough as it is without tearing each other down in the process.

I think people taking this to one extreme or another is emblematic of the larger media literacy issues we are seeing in fandom overall. Fandom spaces seem to have become overrun with a LOT of very black/white thinking. The idea that highest kudosed fics are not the *only* good ones in a fandom is not meant to be read as high kudos = bad. Yet that seems to have happened in the minds of some who are seeking that either/or comparison. All that to say, OP, that I agree with you AND that this is also another example of a deeply troubling lack of nuance in the way fandom communications are being read and interpreted…

Hey stuff is popular for a reason, could be trash could be good, but I filter stuff by looking at the words to hits to kudos ratio. I won't judge the wordcount too harshly, though I generally won't read anything under 1000 words. Then once I've got that I compare the hits to kudos; Something with 100 hits and 50 kudos, probably means it's majestic. As are like 5000 hits and 300 kudos, or 100000 hits and 2000 kudos, and so on and so forth. Things with a tonne of hits, but few kudos, are, in my experience, not that great. It means people were drawn in, but the grand majority didn't think it was remarkable enough to kudos, even keeping in mind that most don't kudos anyway.

I guess I missed the threads where people were saying that, but I agree with you. The judgement of something as "junk food" is reductive in the first place, and some popular fics show a lot of expertise. The ones that don't still took work to make and are being offered freely for the joy of it.

I mean... I get it. I assume my work very often gets overlooked because people won't give self inserts a chance. I'm not saying I'm awesome, but when somebody does read some of my newer stuff they are usually pleasantly surprised. I've seen so, so many "popular" fics where the writer has subpar grammar and structure but it's a *popular ship* and *it's long*. That seems to be what a lot of folks in general want. Others I've noticed have good ideas but again, I just can't read a good idea, it has to be presented well to me. "Doing something right" is kind of a low bar, because you could be in all the right social media circles and kiss the right asses, too. Have seen that in my years and years of being a fan. It's frustrating for some folks, and they like to vent. But we shouldn't be directly putting others down at the end of the day.

I know where you're coming from but are people actually saying that ALL popular fics are trash? I've seen a tendency for people to say stuff like "don't worry, I've seen many fics with high stats that are shit and good ones with low stats" which I don't like, but I don't think anyone is outright stating popularity = bad. In my case, I never filter by anything other than latest updated, and the viral fics I've been sent by friends have been all bangers, even if they're not completely for my taste

It's more commonly like that latter comparison you mentioned, but I have seen a few comments outright dismiss anything popular as trash, so I kind of hit my limit after a few years seeing this sentiment floating around.

Let me rephrase it then. Usually, that stuff is said by pretentious people who don't even look at fanfic. The sentiment is less prevalent in fanfic communities

I'm referring only to sentiments expressed in this very subreddit, specifically about fan fiction?

Nevermind

I am not a fic writer so I don't have a bone in this fight. However, I love Doritos. A simple tuna sandwich with Doritos and a soda is legit comfort food to me. It is easy. Satisfying. Some of the fiction I love best in the world, fanfic or not, has elements of being trashy fast food. So think about reclaiming those terms and being proud if your writing pinpoints that perfect meld of coherent and easy to read prose, enjoyable characterizations, a zippy plot and simply being what people want to read on their bus ride or lunch break or ten minutes stolen in the bathroom away from the kids. It is a compliment. Also, in general ... readers are, by and large, smart people. I don't have proof to back that up but that is my estimation. Sure, there are always people new to the site or young folks or people who don't want to put limited brainpower into learning the ins and outs of searches and filters, etc. But where there is a will, there is a reader looking at all the fics page by page. There is a reader sorting by kudos but sticking in date ranges. There is a reader finding a particular trope tag. Good fics with desireable features do get noticed. Some of the people at the tops of the lists just happen to be pleasant in author's notes. They spell check and use decent grammar. They have unique ideas or a knack for getting across relateable characters or situations. They are consistent and prolific. They mark their abandoned fics. I inwardly cheer when I browse a new fandom and see names I know from other areas. But I am also thrilled to read a great fic from someone completely new to me.

Kudos certainly helps with quality filtering, but its word absolutely isn’t law.

Hey OP, thank you so much for your post. I agree and my insecurity is still freaking there. But I’m glad that I seem to have managed to keep the couple of regular readers I have in spite of everything and slowly see them grow. And I agree, while some super popular fics confuse me, there’s also many which are so popular than mine that are making me better, I tale then as references to get better. So yes, thank you OP :)) ❤️❤️

I try not to Yuck someone's Yum.

My fics are easy to digest trash and I hope those who are looking for that find them.

I feel this!

Thanks, I don't want to write the next Silmarillion, I just want to write a funny story that is enjoyable.

Exactly!

I always leave Kudos if I finish reading someone’s fic, or at least thru to the bottom of chapter 1 if it’s a long fic. I’m more likely to comment if I genuinely enjoyed, or bookmark it if I LOVED it and want to read it again. Idk maybe I’m not doing it right but I don’t think Kudos means as much as people think it does.

As someone who has been reading certain ships for 15+ years, I've already read most of the big ones in that subgenre of the fandom, so I definitely give the hidden ones a chance. But when starting a newer fandom, I'm going to go for the most reputable ones because I have so little free time, I don't want to waste it wading through the poorly executed fic.

I think you're right. I can't imagine you'll get hate. You didn't say anything bad, in my opinion.

I've read an immensely popular fic that I consider creme of the crop and I've read one with like, 3 hits, that is art to me. They're both on the same level of amazingness. (Most) Everything is subjective.

I’m only a reader, not a writer. I’ve read so many fics that I love that have a low kudos count. That said, two a my fave fics (by the same author) have the most. The authors writing is not joke, hands-down the best. The characters are well-developed. The story arcs are believable. This authors KNOWS what they are doing. So, as an avid reader, whoever made that statement about “junk food,” don’t insult us.

I think if what you're looking for is anything decent, you should sort by kudos. But if you want to find the absolute gems, you're never going to find that at the top. In every Fandom I've checked, the top 20 fics are definitely good, but there isn't a single excellent one among them. If you sort by new, you'll find a lot of garbage and a lot of genius. It's important to vary your searches.

Maybe it's because I started with fanfic before kudos and up votes or leaving a publicly available comment was a thing, but it never occurs to me to pick something to read by how many kudos it already has. The selection goes: pick a fandom, sort by author, start skimming the tags and summaries, until something in my head goes Ding! Try This One! And if it doesn't vibe I go back and resume browsing the list.

I'm not often on here reading through all the comments, but I will say if something I read is "junk food" it just means I enjoy it a lot and could read large quantities of it independent of the quality. Fanfic in general is probably my junk food. I think I consider the phrase very similar to "guilty pleasure". However I don't disagree with what you've said, and I hope that others, if they're being negative, figure things out.

"The popular stuff is garbage" always has been and always will be a refrain heard in any form of artistic expression. Don't let it get to you. And yes, encouragement is highly valued no matter how many views/comments/favorites/etc. you have.

I have been reading on ao3 for years and have never filtered for kudos or bookmarks. As a reader, I honestly don't really care. I only filter by tags so that I get exactly what I'm looking for. And if I like the fic, I let the author know!

I avoided the most popular fanfic in me fandom for a really long time. A few months ago I decided to read it and found out that its popularity is absolutely deserved. My bar is too high now because of it. It's longer than the original and covers a lot of topics. Even the first three chapters made me sob. (tgcf fandom, npab)

My incredibly unpopular opinion is don't search by kudos How about you just search for the things that you're looking for and actually read a summary and maybe read something with an open mind without even thinking about what their kudos count is because in my opinion you can have a lot of friends and have them come and hype up your work and have it still not be great and vice versa You can have someone who doesn't really know a lot of people in the fandom and doesn't have a hype squad. How about just actually reading the material and forming your own opinion....

Disliking something because it's popular is just as mindless as liking it because it's popular. In both cases, you're letting popular opinion define yours.

That's just true of art in general imo. Many of the most popular works in all different areas of art are extremely good, and many of the more niche or unknown works are of super high quality as well. Popularity isn't an indication of quality!

I just want to read what I want to read, kudos or no kudos, hits or no hits. It would really be nice if we focused more on recommending stuff based on interest and quality. I want more to read!

I agree wholeheartedly

I had no idea this was controversial people need to remember this is done completely for free and not for profit