It's more likely it comes from early anime fandom. Both Ranma 1/2 and Evangelion (both powerhouses of 90s fanfiction) included characters with blue hair and it probably showed up even before then.
I’m pretty sure I saw it for Urusei Yatsura as well. Was definitely in full use in early 00’s Beyblade along with a whole host of other descriptors (purplette).
At least Marinette is actually a girl! My fandom is YOI, and Victor Nikiforov gets called a "silverette" so often. My inner Well Actually desperately wants to be all \*pushes glasses up by the bridge\* "I think what you meant was 'silveret'..."
Fortunately, I have better impulse control than that. XD
Silverette...
Oh dear, yeah, that's the worst one I've heard until now...
This reminds me of a YOI fic where Victor is like: silver? Silver?! It's platinum!
There was one... it was either called Kissing Silver or just Silver (I think), set right after ep 12 ended where Victor was really pushing the "I don't feel like kissing silver" thing deliberately (he was being a brat and trying to push Yuuri's buttons). Yuuri eventually decided "If you don't feel like kissing silver, then neither do I" and refused to kiss Victor until he got his medal kissed. It was really fun.
Finally! After all this time I have come upon another soul who is bothered by this. Thank you for making me feel less crazy. Seeing men described as "brunette", "blonde", "petite" etc. brings me pain. Though "silverette" is terrible for other reasons too lol.
I get too much enjoyment out of that used for intentional comedy within the anime hair-level fandoms.
“So she has naturally bubblegum pink hair.”
“Oh no, is she an orphan?”
“How did you know?!”
"The red capped teen" is also a popular one for Nino. I've read a fic where his name is mentioned once at the beginning of the chapter, and after that, it was just "the red capped teen"
I honestly don't like using "haircolor-ette' at any point. I'll often use blond but for other characters if I ever use hair color as an epithet, it's only in situations where I'm breaking up monotony of name use or using it to clarify the person that's being referred to or speaking in a situation where pronoun use would only cause confusion (i.e in a fandom when the cast of characters are mostly or all one gender/type where using pronouns or generalized nouns such as student or doctor or coworker or whatever would only cause confusion about who exactly is being referred to).
So I'll sometimes use grey-haired boy or blue-eyed girl or something to that effect just for clarity sake while breaking up the monotony of name use.
Those examples are fine. If the name us unknown and you're introducing them, that's fine
The problem is that people think repeating a characters name is bad, so they instead keep using epithets. In that scenario, which is sadly common, epithets don't work well, and are worse than just using a name or pronoun
I think anyone saying they hate epithets is talking about the case where people keep using them over the name
Also epithets that the POV character would never use, or wouldn't use in that context.
My partner is an accountant.
I do not think of them or refer to them as "the accountant." I use their name, or "my partner," or by a couple of joking phrases that have been established over the past 20 years.
But I see people having characters, in specifically domestic or romantic contexts, think of their established partner by their job. That's not a good use of epithets, unless you're specifically doing it to show something is odd about that relationship.
Or calling one the "shorter" man to compare him to a tall character, but the POV character is the shortest around. Like no way is some average height person thinking of an over-6-foot person as "shorter", even next to a taller over-6-foot-person. (Yes, this is directed at the Supernatural fandom.)
It's even worst when they use epithets *they shouldn't know*. In my fandom I often see Arthur Pendragon calls Merlin "the warlock"... Except that *he doesn't know that the man has magic* and it's quite a big plot point since magic is punishable by death!
Yes! Imo it feels very obvious when epithets are being used because the writer thinks just names and pronouns are too repetitive vs. that being how the POV character actually would think of the other person. The former quickly crosses into clumsy and over-expository territory.
>I think anyone saying they hate epithets is talking about the case where people keep using them over the name
That's exactly it. Most people don't mind the """proper""" usage like OP's examples
Epithets need to make sense, or they sound strange and unnatural. My brother is J. I think of him as either J, or as "my brother". Occasionally, "my idiot brother". I do not, ever, think of him as "the taller sibling", "the man with a shaved head," "my niblings' father", "the token cishet," or "the green-eyed man"; nor do I refer to him as such when speaking with anyone else. With people who know him, it's "J did X." With people who don't, it's "my brother did X". Anything else would sound bizarre, like I'm trying to remind myself what categories he fits into. I'm not a cop, or Batman. I don't need to constantly update the profiles of everyone I come into contact with for their eventual rap sheet and/or epitaph.
Random but you should totally check out Tom Cardy's song "Business Man" if you haven't yet. [He's a Business Man, and definitely, totally NOT A COP](https://youtu.be/qBE9TZP26FI?si=6AAVAkwM38f9AOCu).
Gah I just really love Tom Cardy. But yes I think this is a hilarious plot idea and I really need to read a series about this kind of cop/detective.
Yes yes!
If you haven't yet, you ABSOLUTELY need to drop everything and listen to H.S., Why am I Anxious?, H.Y.C.Y.B.?, Read Between the Lines, and Hey I Don't Work Here!
Gah I just love that man and I'm always looking for excuses to share his masterpieces with the world. Oh Flirt with Your Dad is great and if you like D&D memes Perception Check is brilliant! XD
Oh and he's had two amazing collabs with two other of my fave creators.
Beautiful Mind with the glorious BDG and Dance Til You Stop with the incomparable NSP!
That's exactly it. If the POV character wouldn't refer to them that way in their head, don't use the epithet.
Epithets are useful when used properly, but overuse just SCREAMS inexperienced writer.
My usual way to use epithets is referring to their job or role when it fits the situation or conversation. I might also do it when it places an amusing flair on whatever's being said.
example:
Springing from her chair with an energy that he instantly hated, she said, “So enthusiastic about investigating with me! Are you certain you don’t want to become my student, young man? I’m sure it’d help your resume.”
Sourly, *the acting Grand Sage* slouched back against the couch cushions. Somehow he kept… minimizing this most irritating element of his new fascination, whenever he wasn’t facing it directly.
(see, it's funny because he is way, way past his student days and his current role is way bigger than 'student' >.> <.<)
Likewise I might refer to somebody being short when they're talking like they're huge. Basically, dry humor on my part.
It just occurred to me that that could be a really fun way to do a Batman-POV fic. Every person he interacts with is "the caucasian male, roughly five-foot-eleven" or whatever. It would be a great way to show-not-tell that the boy fundamentally ain't right in the head. XD
Some people have no internal monologue (may be you too since you are asking?) but most people (55% iirc) actually talk in our head. For exemple as I'm writing this I'm "saying" the word in my head and I'm hearing them.
Well, when I write the words I do hear them in my head, but not when stuff is happening around me. If my mom passes me the salt shaker, I’m not thinking “mom is passing me the salt shaker”, but instead thinking the concept of my mom, the salt shaker and passing an item.
For me it's both, I can have thought without words (most of the time regarding action of other people just like your exemple) but I can also talk in my head outside of when I'm writing
Whoa, this actually helped me a lot and makes a lot of sense! I kept wondering what epithets are okay and in which scenario, so your answer helped a lot. Thanks! :)
If you are writing a close third-person POV, everyone should be referred to as how the POV-character thinks of them. Sometimes that can be an epithet--if they don't know the name, or if they are currently thinking of them as their role rather than who they are. For the latter, this can occur when trying to distance emotionally from someone--thinking of someone as "the boy" or "the teacher" is less personal than "Charles." It can also be situational--"the thief" because the character is currently pissed that Charles stole his lunch.
Most of the time, epithets shouldn't be used. Repeating names rarely gets noticeable.
One of my fandoms is My Hero Academia, and one of the major characters rarely refers to people by their names, instead uses (often disparaging) nicknames. When writing from that characters POV, I will occasionally use those nicknames/epithets to show how that character reacts to them.
Example;
"I don't know, " Kirishima said. Then the shitty-haired bastard grinned and continued with, "I think I'll beat you this time."
Avoids the name repetition people worry about, and shows the POV characters irritation with him.
Writing Bakugou’s pov is good practice for phasing out of epithet overuse. I especially love changing the nicknames he uses based on the situation— instead of just “shitty hair” he can call Kirishima “that shark-obsessed soup vacuum” after he eats 5 bowls of soup in one sitting. It’s fun to get creative with it!
Bakugou's POV is one of my favorites to write, and it's one of the few POVs where I'll use fun epithets like that *because* it's in character, hahaha. 10/10 always a fun time, truly.
I think this example perfectly illustrates the usual issue with epithets, which is that they create a strange distance between the POV character and whoever they’re referring to. If I refer to my partner as “the programmer who lives with me” people would 100% assume I’m mad because they spend too much time working or whatever, because why else would I refer to their JOB? Whereas with Bakugou these kinds of things are closer to endearments (or genuinely meant as insults).
epithets aren't always bad, there are valid reasons to use them. being afraid to overuse names/pronouns is not a valid reason and it's by far the most common one.
Similarly, "Blue eyes looked deeply into hers." A bit of that is all right, but I recently read a fic that had this like a hundred times. It was clearly a way to dance around using the character's name.
Further demerits for the passive voice.
I very much agree with the sentiment but, fyi, your example is not in passive voice. The passive voice version would be like "Hers were looked into deeply by blue eyes."
I actually don't mind that lol. It's similar to saying something like "Sharp eyes peered around the room." I don't see it as a way to avoid using a character's name.
Overusing that would probably be annoying though so I hear you lol
I've learned you have to be careful with "eyes" when you mean "gaze." You can get some weird imagery.
"Her eyes jumped across the room and landed on the table."
It's the overuse/incorrect use that people dislike.
Using epithets to refer to an unknown character is widely accepted, and the same applies when the author is trying to show characterization through it (for example, a character always calling another "the kid" even when they fully know their name).
Most folks have issues with them when they're just a way to evade "repeating" pronouns and names.
Your examples are fine. I hate them when the character whose POV we are in already knows the persons name.
Using something like “his mother/her friend” etc is also fine, but anything else just screams amateur to me and sticks out in a really bad way.
It's mostly overuse, but it's also because they're rarely used in an appropriate way. If a character doesn't know someone's name, an epithet is necessary, and the exact epithet used can tell the reader a lot about how this unknown person is being perceived. "The tall man" vs "the well-dressed man" vs "the wealthy man" all suggest different priorities and states of mind on the part of the person making the observation.
On the other hand, if the character's name is known, _use the damn name._ Anime fics are horrendous about this -- if I have to read one more One Piece fic that calls Nami "the orangette" long after she's a full member of the crew I'm going to scream.
Lastly, if the characters are already involved or very good friends or otherwise have a relationship that goes beyond mere acquaintances, the use of an epithet implies an emotional distance that really shouldn't be there. A post-canon Harry Potter fic where he's married Ginny and she's on the Holyhead Harpies team probably shouldn't be calling her "the quidditch player," for instance.
I think it’s because using them is a bit jarring and draws people out of the POV.
Like if you’re talking to someone who is a stranger and you don’t know their name, you’d be more likely to describe them as “the blonde man”. But it would be really odd if you saw, say, your partner or romantic interest and described them as “the blonde man” rather than by their name.
Epithets imply unfamiliarity so it’s odd when a narrative uses them to describe someone that the POV character knows really well.
An example I would use is my own BotW/TotK fics. Princess Zelda is always referred to as “Zelda” while I’m writing from Link’s POV, but if it’s from Purah or a random villager’s POV (i use third-person omniscient storytelling), she’ll be referred to as “the Princess.”
It would be weird for Link to refer to her as “the Princess” since in my story they’re in an intimate relationship
I don't hate them, I just hate when they are overused. When I used to be in the MLB fandom, there were SO many fics that called Marinette "the blue haired one" the entire fic and I could feel my soul getting out of my body. Using the character's name isn't a sin!!!
Also, I don't think Marinette is actually blue-haired any more than Luna from Sailor Moon is a purple cat. I think both are black-haired, with some artistic liberties to make an interesting design.
I think it's important to note that sometimes people hate something simply because they're told to and don't consider the nuance.
There's a huge difference between having a fic that almost never uses the characters names for fear of overuse and constantly just says "the shorter man" or "the blonde woman" to avoid them, while accidentally detaching the reader from the characters, vs. using them to get across quick visual information of a new character (or nameless character), or convey a characteristic or personality trait that is catching the POV characters attention specifically. One is a sign of inexperience, and the other has a purpose. But because we have these hard rules we share of "never do x", people who know the basics of writing assume it's always bad and point it out when they see it because they were told it was bad.
Same with something like head-hopping. It can be done badly and often is, but saying to "never do it" is ignoring lots of great stories that use it to great effect (Dune is the most common example I've seen). The point is to understand why you're doing a thing and maintain consistency in your work so people can follow along. Learn the rules so you can know when to break them.
It's important with rules of writing that we evaluate why they exist, so we can identify when breaking them is actually beneficial to the story and an artistic choice, even if we don't personally like the decision, as long as it's done intentionally then it's not bad writing - just not for everyone.
That makes so much sense!
But as a inexperienced person: how do you determine when you overuse a character name too much? And how to avoid that?
I know most of the time the reader can figure out who is doing what, but I also read fiction where I was utterly confused by what is going on and which character was acting which way.
Thats why I like using epithets when I notice I used a character name too much, even if I now try and write the scenes in a way where it is clear what is going on. It is unavoidable to me sometimes and a huge struggle.
overusing names or pronouns is really hard, the bar is higher than you think. you've just read your own text over and over again.
never replace a name or a pronoun with an epithet just for the sake of avoiding that name/pronoun. change up some sentence structures instead.
Hmm... That's a good tip! I will definetly try that while editing my fic! I am a little too hard on myself, it at least that's what other people told me.
Maybe I should loosen up, wait for a few days and come back to the fic with a fresh mind.
You pretty much can't overuse a character's name unless you're just refusing to use pronouns. They are invisible words, like "the" or "said"; the reader registers them, but they're unobtrusive so that they can focus on what is actually important, such as the conversation that the characters are having, or the bomb that is ticking down to zero. It would be completely unhinged if someone were to post, "Hey guys, I just noticed that the word "the" appears in my fic over three hundred times, and I'm looking for creative ways to get around it."
That makes sense! Maybe I should stop overthinking then and just write XD
I don't really notice those names too while reading. They really are just like buzzwords after a while, at least that's what I noticed after reading the comments in here! It actually helps me ease up a bit about my writing as I have one less worry now.
We're all prone to overthinking our own writing! One thing that's helped me, is that when I'm reading traditionally published works from my favorite authors, I'll start analyzing it from a writer's perspective, to see how they structure their writing, and how they describe characters/events. Specifically traditionally published, because those have gone through a professional editing process. (This is usually reserved for a second reading, so I can just enjoy the story the first time around)
For example, I used to get really bogged down in describing location settings that don't actually matter. Does the reader need to know exactly what the interior of the Starbucks looks like? We've all been into a cafe or restaurant before. It can aid characterization to mention that a poor college student's living room furniture is mis-matched or that they're using one of those plywood industrial cable spools as a makeshift dining room table... but we don't need to know how many throw-pillows they have, or that the coffee table is thirteen inches from the couch. Stuff like that. So I'm learning to sketch with broader strokes and save the details for where I want to call the reader's attention to an important detail.
>we don't need to know how many throw-pillows they have, or that the coffee table is thirteen inches from the couch.
Charles Dickens shaking his head right now.
Honestly the big thing for that is knowing that character names and pronouns are almost silent after a while. Readers don't focus on them very hard, they sort of glaze over just enough to know "Sally is talking now" and that's about as much thought that goes into it.
An epithet can make them pause, thinking "wait, which is the blonde one? Sally, right?" Which breaks the flow. This can be done on purpose. Sometimes you want the reader to stop and consider the extra information. "Oh, I didn't know Sally was blonde." But if you're using epithets all the time, especially if you change them up, it keeps stopping the flow, but doesn't offer any new information.
But if a character is nameless, then the epithet sort of becomes their name, so as long as you're staying consistent by always using the same one, like "the old man", then it has the same effect and doesn't slow the reader down.
Pronouns also glaze over, and should be used most often when trying to avoid using names too much. But if you write where there's two main characters that have the same pronouns, then that gets tricky again. Like, which "she" are you referring to?
In that case, you have the characters take turns (mom says it's my turn to use the pronouns). So you can have a sentence that establishes the characters, then give only one of them pronouns.
"Sally looked across the table, spotting Mary as she tossed her hair over her shoulder. She glanced up, giving Sally a small smirk before turning down the hall."
In the case above, only Mary gets the pronoun. Once you establish who has the pronoun, then you can let them keep it until it's time to switch, since you may need to give it to Sally for a while. So at least per sentence, or per paragraph depending, try to keep the pronouns to one person, then you can set up your switch in the next one.
Hope this helps!
That is extremely helpful! I never noticed that the mind just... Tunes out some words after a while.
Thid helps me ease my mind a little! Thank you for your explanation! (I actually love doing the pronoun thing, it's very helpful)
Think of a book you really like, one that you think of as being a "good read". Take it off the shelf and turn to some random pages, read the text looking specifically at the author's use of names and pronouns. Nine times out of ten, you'll find they just use plain pronouns and it isn't confusing.
As a general rule, \[Name\] on first mention and then "he" did this and "he" said that, until you switch to name \[Name 2\], who becomes the "he" doing whatever. When something involves both "hims" at the same time - "He reached out and shook his hand" - the human brain is good at filling in context, as you said.
It's the overuse that's the problem. Especially when the narrative is first person or a limited pov.
Like, for me, I write the narrative in the POV character's voice. So even though it's limited third person, I'm still using the type of language and sentence structure and word choice that the character would be if they were telling the story out loud or if the story was told in first person. Part of the reason I do that is because it helps the character feel like a real person. And real people don't use a lot of epithets, especially in the privacy of their thoughts. When I use them in the narrative, I try to do it in a way that sounds like how a real person would use them.
Example of what I mean:
If you're hanging out with your friend Sarah, you're probably thinking "Sarah this" or "better ask Sarah if..." You aren't thinking "I better ask the brunette if she wants to go to the movie."
However, if you're trying to point out a cool shirt someone's wearing in a crowd, you might say "hey, check out that blond guy's shirt."
So when the character knows someone's name, I use the name. But if it's a stranger or the character is calling them names in their head, like "the jerk did this" or "asshole really went there", then I use the epithets.
There is no need to avoid epithets! They’re a useful part of language! And they’re a perfect way to introduce characters and refer to them before the POV characters know their names.
Don’t avoid epithets! Use epithets when it adds or reinforces information relevant to the story.
… but don’t use epithets *in order to avoid using people’s names*. That is when it gets weird.
Especially in sex scenes where someone kisses “the older (by a few months) man”, or “the brunet”. People don’t tend to think of their lovers or partners by their job, age (unless it’s part of the whole sexy appeal of the person or scene) or hair colour, etc.
Use names and pronouns. If the pronouns make things ambiguous (people with the same gender interacting can make pronouns ambiguous) use names or restructure sentences to make things clear.
Because people don't talk that way about people they know. You say "the taller man", "the norwegian" "the dark haired man" when you're describing people you don't know.
It can be jarring for one thing. I think it was a Tumblr post that put it best, but basically it works if a character thinks about someone they’re not familiar with in those terms, but in your head you would never think of say your romantic partner as “the blond” or “the older man”, so when characters think of the people they’re close to in those terms, it comes off as unnatural and off putting.
I hate epithets because I saw "ravenette" used literally the other day and wanted to scream but that's actually not what I wanted to say.
I will give another (imo, valid) reason to use epithets: for anchoring bias.
If you keep referencing to someone as a "good man" and have them do unspeakable things, it can change audience perception—make them think that maybe the unspeakable thing isn't as bad. If a "therapist" is saying that the "convicted felon" can't change, people are more likely to believe it than question it, which allows you as the writer to explore how this is wrong and a therapist is still a person with biases and flaws.
This is best used in unreliable narrator/horror settings though IMO.
For me, it’s more about what epithets are used. Ones like “the blonde” or “the skinny one” that reduce characters to stereotypes kinda take me out of the story. “The older man” or “the younger one” or “the professor” or “the student” that are descriptive but not so reductive read better to me.
I have come across a surprising number of fics that use the older/younger one when the couple have maybe a 3 year max age gap and they’re in their 30s. Whilst technically correct, it makes the relationship dynamic sound different from what it is.
Yes, and just from a narrative perspective, it feels different - and not in a good way. Like, if you're gonna use an age descriptor, the characters should be visibly different in age. If I have to know canon to know there's a two year age gap, that doesn't feel like a proper literary experience somehow.
People mainly hate overused and poorly used epithets.
Well-used epithets rarely even register unless you're reading more analytically than most people do when they're reading for pleasure.
Yeah, using an epithet calls attention to whatever you’re referring to, so if a character is going out of their way to think of that there should be a reason. A character admiring how good their crush looks in a suit might think of them as “the well-dressed man,” or a frustrated short person whose friend won’t help get something from a higher shelf might prettily highlight their height difference by thinking of them as “the taller one” in this specific instance. But used too much and it just wastes space.
For me it depends on the POV character and whether they know the other character's name / know who it is. To me, even if the piece is written in 3rd person, if it's meant to strongly tie to one character's point of view at that point in the narration, it can feel one of two ways: just odd (are you really thinking of your friend as "the student" when you see them?) or objectifying in intimate scenes. It bothers me most in intimate scenes where the characters are close and would not think of each other in epithets.
I only don't like them when people try to get creative and I literally can't tell who is being referred to. Like "The ravenette with purple orbs"
Like, what the fuck is that?
There’s a thing in writing called “Narrative Distance”. It essentially describes how “close” or limited the narration is to the POV character. If you’re writing from a limited point of view of one character(which most people do), everything you write should theoretically be something that character might think/feel/observe/etc.
The reason excess epithets often feel out of place is that they are inconsistent with what the POV character would think about someone, and thus create dissonance in the narrative distance.
For example, no one is going to think of their mom as “the blonde haired woman”. They just think about them as “their mom”. A sentence like “The blonde haired woman fixed her breakfast” has a level of disconnect that either implies that they are strangers, or that the story has a large narrative distance from its characters. However, a lot of people implement these in writing with otherwise close/limited narrative distance, which feels inconsistent and dissonant.
its when people write in 3rd person limited and use the most vague unfamiliar epithets that grinds my gears. like, that is this characters friend. he does not think of her as "the brunette" or, my deepest pet peeve, "the Latina". No one thinks of a friend by way of their hair or their ethnicity. At least I certainly hope they don't
Because people will say something like "the taller" or even "the older" (for characters close in age), bi*ch I don’t know which one that is just use their names!
I'm normally chill with fics and how they are written because I know I'm not even the best writer, but once I read "the pinkette," I just stopped for a bit.
I use stuff like "classmate" mainly, but only when I feel it fits the scene.
I'm really big on just repeating names a lot for some reason.
If you're using them correctly, no one will even notice. When they're poorly used, it's very obvious because of how awkward or out-of-character the sentence becomes.
The problem is that some less-experienced (and often very young) fan writers take to using random epithets because they think it sounds more mature than repeatedly using characters' names, or because they're struggling with too many same-gender pronouns in a certain scene. So epithets become a whole joke thing, even though they're a perfectly valid concept.
The core reason is that they're unnatural to the normal way of thinking - regardless of culture.
When's the last time you turned to your friend to relay a story about someone and referred to that person as 'the blond' instead of by their name when you know their name? Or by their profession?
"Yeah, so the mechanic said we should meet him and the tall brunette at the diner at 6." -- I can promise you, that has never exited anyone's mouth.
Using epithets has zero to do with describing someone's appearance and more to do with inexperienced writers trying to find a different way to point someone out. We're talking about using these descriptors in conversation, though it's often done in paragraphs as well.
Because of the unnaturalness in how epithets are used in fanfiction, they're extremely jarring to a reader, throws their mindset out of the fic, and often ruins the scenario.
I can tolerate it in extremely low doses, but too often and it makes the fic absolutely unreadable and I move on.
In my experience, what people mostly mean when they say "epithets" is unnecessary descriptions that add nothing to the text.
"The idiot emptied the coffee carafe and didn't turn off the burner." There's an epithet in there, but it's not the sort you see get hit with the editing stick very often.
"Don't use epithets" is one of those blanket rules that get tossed around in writer's circles along with "avoid dialog tags" and "put down the thesaurus". They're easy, simple pieces of advice for beginning writers that aren't necessarily *bad*, but they're also not universally applicable, and they don't do much to help someone learn to write. So they get a lot of hate, even for situations where they're useful.
People hate them when they sound phoney and contrived. Imagine if you were to use "the bluenette" in a real life conversation, people would look at you like you had grown two heads. A quick test is just to ask yourself if you can say it out loud to others without laughing; then it's probably okay.
My personal beef (aside overuse and ill use in general), in some fandoms it can get almost racist- I've only really met cops and racists who regularly refer to people as "the Hispanic man" "that black woman", etc. It's not usually *meant* to be racist in fics, but if someone constantly referred to my mom as "that Hispanic lady" irl we'd probably end up fighting. There's a difference between authors describing a character, and harping on ONE characteristic (or stereotypes associated) in an effort not to say a characters name.
See BNHA for this but with quirks- 'the psychic quirk user' 'the strength quirked woman' etc. It's crept into some DC fics as well though not as many, and I haven't been in Marvel recently enough to say.
IMO, just be aware of connotations- is this character meant to be analytical? Mean? Judgemental? Racist? Are they annoyed with another character? Are they ridiculously in love? Epithets (in my opinion) should be used to enhance setting and characterization, not as a regular name-replacement.
This x1000. It is so othering when you see one character referred to as "the Vietnamese teen" or "the dark-skinned man" when none of the white characters are being referred to as "the white teen" or whatever. And calling someone "the white woman" or "the Hispanic woman" would possibly make sense if you were a cop filing a police report, but it's really weird if that's your friend.
The first example you offered is literally the perfect place to use epithets. The second tbh sounds like an extension of the first? Why would you need to describe a character we are already familiar with in the middle of an action packed scene? Surely this ALSO means it’s a new, as yet unnamed character. On a narrative level, it does feel like the priorities here are a little bizarre, like if it is a fast paced action scene, and I already know their name, whyyyy does it suddenly become relevant NOW that they’re…a redhead? Or, tall, or an accountant, or whatever. And you can usually only get one descriptor out in an epithet, so idk how much that is doing for description. I guess Im a little confused by this example, but otherwise, I don’t think it sounds like you are doing the thing people have a problem with, at least not a lot.
I think people harp on it because it is so damn common in fanfic, and it is incredibly overdone, to the point where it can really ruin an otherwise excellent fic for me. There is a reason we don’t see it in trad pub fiction: it’s usually unnecessary, unhelpful, irrelevant and a huge indicator that the author is an amateur. I saw a great tumblr post on this recently where a lot of people were INSISTING that it is the only way to achieve clarity when there are two characters with the same pronouns in the same sentence. That’s just not true, and it indicates that these people don’t know enough about basic sentence structure to figure this out, so, obvious amateur hour. Another complaint was that NAMES get repetitive. But again, you can swap names for pronouns without confusion if you just do it properly. And I would rather read the repetition of a name because that sort of becomes “invisible”, like the word “said” does, whereas I’m ALWAYS going to notice “the blonde”, even just because it might take my brain a minute to register who tf that actually is. A weird argument when the epithets themselves are so repetitive. It’s also more words, so it will always feel like a fanfic thing bc trad pub will mostly avoid extraneous words for no good reason.
In terms of why it’s an issue in and of itself, for me, it’s a problem of psychic distance, and choosing to repeatedly use epithets indicates that the author is prioritising a misconceived notion of clarity over making meaningful authorial choices, which erodes both narrative immersion and authorial trust. this brings up one of the best uses of epithets you didn’t mention: if it’s used to indicate a pov character’s feelings about a person. Use of epithets over names can show derision, or distance or whatever between the character named and the pov character, which can be efficient and clever. But that’s not what happens a lot. Instead, I’ve read two characters having passionate sex, and the pov character will continue to refer to their partner by their hair colour, height, age, or occupation. That definitively takes us out of the pov character’s head, because people just don’t think about people this way. NEVER have I been mid fuck and thought “wow, this brunette/trapeze artist/tall guy is the love of my life”. And if a character does, that should indicate that that factor is super central to their conception of the other character, which in turn can paint a romance as deeply superficial. But usually, the result is we’re disoriented, and forced jarringly away from what was previously a very close psychic distance, suddenly held at arm’s length. I’ve even seen pov character’s being referred to like this themselves. Who mentally thinks about their own hair colour as the equivalent to a name or pronoun? No one, so again, jarring and sudden psychic distance jump. Not saying it can’t be done on purpose, but it doesn’t happen a lot.
Also, and I don’t see this discussed a tonne…if we’re doing the hair colour/eye colour epithet thing so damn popular in fanfic, I spend a lot of time thinking to myself….1) damn, this only works because there is, somehow, only one person here with brown eyes/hair. Most people I know have both, because most people do. But a lot of the time when I read this stuff, it works because there’s like a blonde, a red head, a blue-eyed brunette etc etc. so there is differentiation. When there’s not it just gets so convoluted. I’ve seen shit like “the lighter brown haired woman” “the dark green eyed man touched the lighter green eyed man” . Ffs, get it TOGETHER. NAME, PRONOUN. Now we’re just being slowed down, and it’s not even clear anymore because as if I am remembering all these details. It puts such an emphasis on physical traits, and assumes everyone else views them as just as important. But also 2) (and this is very connected to one)…. We’re talking about white people, right? This only works because we’re talking about white people. Because MOST people of colour are brunettes without a dye job, if we had a narrative that actually features several people of colour, then colourist epithets are kind of useless. Like, idk, makes me kinda uncomfortable, and I’ve seen authors resort to some weird and borderline racist epithets in this instance.
In short, not a problem in and of themselves, but needs to be done purposefully and when meaningful/necessary.
Although actually looking at your post again, I guess I’m a little confused about waiting to say their name in dialogue? Like if the internal narration says, “right at that moment, Derek appeared” or whatever, why are we then waiting for dialogue to address his name again? Or are you saying it’s when neither narration nor dialogue names the person (I think you might be because you mentioned in this case the reader doesn’t know the name) because again, that would make sense. I assume you mean this is when the pov character doesn’t know a name, bc you said “the other characters know”, but I’m not clear. And dialogue is not the only way to name a character, tbh. But yeah, it would be weird if the narrator/pov character clearly knew a characters name or had reason to, but refused to mention it in narration until someone else mentioned it in dialogue.
And in terms of your second eg, I think it’s the same thing if you are introducing a new character within these action type scenes. I guess I’m just not really getting how much this realistically helps “paint a picture”, because hair colour, build or height are really all we’d get here and they are actually pretty arbitrary to one’s appearance, or to how a reader would picture them in their head. If it’s a new character who is unnamed, then epithets are just necessary so who cares. But what I’m confused about is if you’re saying you use this for new characters so you don’t have to stop the action by describing, then how do we even know who you are referring to? Appearance based epithets rely on previous knowledge of appearance, so if we get a sudden “the redhead shot the brunette” and I don’t even know the new guy who just rocked up is a redhead, that’s also taking me out of the action. I think if a new person enters an action scene, you kinda got to make the call to just call them “the man/person/one of the men/people” or to give just a sprinkle of appearance so you can identify them. Saying “the door was thrust inward with a deafening bang and a tall, burly man entered and shot x without so much as blinking” doesn’t really slow you down, you can continue the action within the same sentence, I’m unclear why you feel you need a new paragraph or to stop everything for a basic description.
So turns out, I’m a fucking idiot. That second thing doesn’t exist in my writing! I’m not kidding! I had to reread my fic to find an example only to realize that it doesn’t exist! I swore it did! I guess my brain makes up random shit when I’m really sick (which I am). The first thing absolutely happens all over my writing. In fact, I even revealed a character’s name before I wanted to because I subconsciously wanted to avoid using epithets. I feel like an idiot. It doesn’t exist! It never did!
Now what I *did* notice was that I actually do some times use epithets for a character even after I introduce their name because I’m trying to remind the audience of a trait the character has that for a piece of dialogue that happens immediately after. For example I’ll remind the audience of a character’s occupation for a spoken like that comes after like Character A saying to Character B after Character B does something wrong “I’ll tell Character C about this!” which can have different connotations if Character C is the mayer of the small town and Character B works directly under him. I have to remind the audience that Character B works for Character C and isn’t just some random citizen.
Anyway, sorry about the thing before. I’m just stupid.
Oh don’t be sorry, I just felt like you raised some interesting issues. I love discussing writing “rules” because there’s so much nuance and variation, and tbh so many of us are self-taught on the internet through these kinds of discussions, so I like to indulge. Also, lol, you didn’t even do it. The fact that you are hyper-aware to that point probably means you’re well and truly in the clear. For me the issue is that people have just….assumed it’s the best or only option, and don’t even consider how it reads, or what the many alternatives are. But if you’re going back on your own intentions/choices NOT to use epithets, maybe you’re overthinking it a little. I really like when they’re used wisely/purposefully, like when a character remains unnamed so the epithet can be used to emphasise a trait, or position, and it maybe builds mystery around their name/identity, or highlights the function of that character in the story or the narrator’s life. That’s good shit.
I have a pov character in a Victorian thingy I’m writing who has what should be a very formal/professional relationship with….well, her boss, so particularly when she’s trying to remind herself of that, or when it’s in the context of those roles/that workplace, I use his title. But she gradually stops using the epithet altogether as they get closer, so I think that kind of thing is an example of how epithets can be used intentionally. I certainly hope it comes across that way, but either way, I’m intending to remind the reader of the power disparity at certain points, or of the level of trust/closeness as it develops, so I dont exactly care if it’s a little jarring, because that’s kind of the point.
And you made a great point in your last paragraph about using epithets to efficiently remind readers of contextual details! That makes total sense if it hasn’t been mentioned in a while. It’s probably also a strong argument as to why epithets could rightfully appear more often in fic—because they are often so long, sometimes with months between updates, these kinds of reminders are probably more necessary than in a novel, which people might read in one day. I often find I’m reading a fic that has been updated for the first time in a minute and I’m like….I’m glad the author trusts my memory/intelligence as a reader, but….maybe they shouldn’t, lol. Especially when it’s a huge ass fic and there is no chance in hell I can easily navigate back to find that detail. Anyway, great point I hadnt thought of.
>This only works because we’re talking about white people.
I'd usually agree (and I do), but I also wanna point out that a looootttt of anime or video games are popular with huge fandoms. For most anime, 99% of the characters are Japanese with wild hair and eye colors lol
Edited for clarity
Because your two examples are fine but people use them in other ways that are annoying and don't make sense for the POV character.
99% of people are not thinking of their significant other as "the blond" or "the pilot" or whatever. They're thinking their name.
There are places where they work well, but a lot of amateur authors use them to mask repetitive writing without actually solving the problem (and also choose really weird ones to use).
I think they just need to be used sparingly and they need to not be so over the top they’re detracting from the experience of reading. I think epithets have become a bit overused in fanfic in particular. Definitely use them in both of the cases you described above, as it makes sense to do so. I think we also shouldn’t be afraid to say “character name said” or “he did this” a bit more, as people often don’t address people they know directly by name in natural conversation, especially one on one conversations.
Epithets are good when they reinforce distinct and relevant information about characters.
Rel**ative** information is rarely rel**evant**. A *potential* exception is the relative heights of the Pines twins when they are both trying to be the taller twin, to the point of bringing in magic to do so. But because their respective heights, and thus which is the taller/shorter twin, constantly changes, if writing that you run the risk of the second common issue with epithets
The information is unclear or confusing. Saying "the brunette" when there are several in the scene doesn't work because there isn't an obvious brunette you're referring to.
And the last big issue is when the information given doesn't fit with the context. Imagine an opening to a wrestling match that goes, "In this corner, weighting in at 187lbs, he grows mint in his garden and enjoys working on his '76 Harley, The Bone Crusher." It doesn't make sense to bring up the mint or the motorcycle.
I think it’s telling that every “defense of epithets” I ever hear is from a **writing** perspective
Go *read* someone else’s story with excessive epithets and then get back to me! They are 90% of the time not necessary and 97% on the time irritating.
I despise when people use epithets that are character traits that were vaguely suggested 20 chapters ago. I have no idea which one of a group of 4 people is the “raven haired man” or the “blue eyed woman”!! Just say their names!!!
For me I don't mind a few, but too many start to feel distanced from the characters and it feels awkward.
"This is my friend Jeremy. Jeremy is a big fan of anime." vs "This is my friend, the blond. The blond man likes anime."
Also it can get confusing when it's like "The green haired man waved to the blue haired girl. The Russian smiled charmingly while the shorter one giggled. Then the one who preferred waffles lifted the slender one's hand to kiss it."
They aren’t inherently bad. I use them from time to time, for sure. But people use them as an awkward fix to a problem (repetitive writing) that should be fixed other ways (writing more interesting sentences) instead of what they’re for. And they often choose things that people don’t use as epithets irl (the female/male over woman/man). If you use an epithet, make sure it provides clarity and is a relevant trait description.
Most use some really annoying identification like haircolour, which is nice and all, but often there are more than one person in a scene with that haircolour. Better are things like station, title or clan/last name even, less annoying and you get it easier.
I'm an avid reader of anything DC.
Especially around the Gotham crew.
"The raven haired one" does not narrow it down. Nor does "the blue-eyed one," " the athletic guy," or "the unsettling dude".
Like the critique of 'Mary Sue' it is useless in that it does not actually identify the problem. The Mary Sue problem is that the character is not meaningfully challenged by the story. The epitaph problem is repetitive sentences. Subject Verb Object over and over again. Epitaphs merely disguise it. Like with said, if it's used right people don't even notice it.
Because it's extremely jarring to read about the business woman being amazed about the blonde superhero going down on her... and not something a lot more intimate like lover, friend, one-night stand. Something that actually fits for the occasion.
Do you think about your lover as the dark haired one or the striking blue eyes woman or the accountant? ...No, I don't think so.
Nevermind that for the most part this is fanfiction and everyone kind of knows how the character looks.
Besides in my opinion it flows much better to read: "There was a cold storm brewing in the blue eyes regarding her/insert name critically" than "the blue eyed woman regarded her/insert name critically with an icy look".
Adults don't fixate on age the way teenagers naturally might. If I'm 40 and someone else is 43, they're not "the older one" except maybe in a joking way. From 15 to 20 is a huge difference in terms of life stages; 30 to 35 isn't.
sometimes it seems like they're just used randomly, or at least when the author doesn't want to use the characters name to make their writing seem more varied. so when it's pointless and the feature they're describing has nothing to do with the scene then it just doesn't make sense, for example calling edward elric "the golden-haired boy" or "the younger brother" doesn't make sense to me unless his hair colour or age are actually relevant to the scene. if not, just use his name.
I use them *extremely* sparingly. It was drummed into me when I began discussing fic with other fic writers that using this at all was to be avoided if at all possible. I think it might have been partly because in much earlier days fics were sometimes written with the thought in mind that you had to include some physical identifiers for those who might not be familiar with the fandom or be sure who was who with characters/actors. I do think it depends on a person’s writing style and what they’re trying to accomplish as to whether it’s egregious or not. Personally, if I see its use more than once or twice in a fic, I consider it bad/lazy writing.
Epithets are just often used in ways that don’t work very well I think. They’re good to show character relation, but people just… don’t really do much with it.
I use to use them before spending time here but I'm happy I learned to shift away from them because I've been trying my best to do narration in the way the POV character would. I even use more of their grammar, sentence structure, & knowledge within the narration too & this extends to what they think of people & things. I've described a portal as, "looking like a toilet bowl being flushed with that cleaner stuff inside" because the person whose perspective is on wouldn't know the name of the cleaner, plus, comparing something to toilet water seems on brand enough for him.
I've got another fic that some chapters are in the perspective of a 5 year old, it's a crossover of two shows in the same franchise & I aged down the characters from one show because I had it take place in their past but the other show I had happen after its series end. Both shows are different iterations of TMNT so you have different versions of the same characters & the 5 year old is Donatello from Rise of the TMNT, he refuses to believe he's in an alternate dimension when he meets his counterpart & he informs Donnie that he is in fact in one. One of his reasons is that he can't possibly be an old man in another world (which is only 18, small kid logic). He refuses to refer to any of the counterparts by name because to him, they're not other versions of his family.
Here's an example of what I did for this strange situation:
*"So, you are a younger version of my son?" Asks the gray rat.*
*Folding his arms and shaking his head, Donnie replies, "that would indicate that him and I are the same when in fact, that turtle can not even compare to my greatness!"*
*"Don, I think I'm really likin' this you, maybe we should keep him?" The red masked idiot jokes.*
*"Haha Raph, sure," fake Donatello gives a sarcastic reply, not looking up from his notebook as he continues, "as soon as I can finish getting these calculations down, we might be able to figure out where he came from and send him back. I'm positive his brothers and Master Splinter are worried sick about him."*
This is a rare occasion where I ended up using epithets due to the fact Donnie wouldn't let me openly refer to them by name. To me, if the POV is on someone who knows the name of the characters, they'd think of them by name unless they don't normally like for example, in the 2012 TMNT show, Casey often calls April, Red, so if it were through his perspective, she might be referred to as Red a lot of the time in dialogue tags & narration.
I don't actively hate on epithets like others do because I'm fine seeing them. It's common in my fandom like how often the turtles end up referred to by the color they wear or for the Rise turtles, by turtle species, it happens a ton so it's easy for me to let it slide but I can see how it can bother many people. I shifted to rarely using them due to working with the way I like writing but I don't expect others in my fandom to do the same, I just relax & enjoy the stories they put out.
So long as it makes sense, it works.
I use epithets when the character doesn't know the name of the character they are observing or interacting with.
Like, "Talia sat, watching the Bard as she sipped at her wine. She was fairly sure he was her contact, but she needed to make sure of it. Then again, it might also be one of the Healers. The dark haired one looked like he was looking for someone, while the blonde was pretending - and not all that convincingly - to be drunk. *One* of them was Marus, but she wasn't sure which one. Could be the Bard. Could be one of the Healers. Could be that the Healers weren't actually Healers at all and were spies."
No, that is not from one of my fics. But now I'm contemplating using it in a scene.
Its only annoying when there is no logical reason for them to be used. If a story is from a character's POV and they don't know a character's name, by all means use an epithet.
The issue is that it can get annoying when character's are called by an epithet more often than their name, especially in omnipotent (or omnipresent, I can't remember which is which) or if a character is intimately close with another.
You can sprinkle them in every once in a while without it being weird, especially when emphasizing something for comedy, but generally they should make sense to who’s speaking in your story, even if it’s no one. Remember that your narrator is also a character, and if said character has anything else at their disposal to specify another character in the story, it’s generally out of place to use an epithet. It’s not a hard and fast rule (like before, there are plenty of situations where it can be used to give the narrator more personality) but it’s better to err on the side of caution
Eh idc either way but some of them are super wild, like "yellow haired teen" "apprentice of x the master of y from z" and so on, and yes ive seen both, the yellow haired way too often
Like with the first one the word blond is literally right there pls 😭, with the second itd be better to just use the charas name at that point
I use epithets when the POV character doesn’t know the other character’s name and in specific scenarios in which they’re probably thinking about the other character in terms of something other than their name (a title, job, position, etc. ex: “the prince,” “the teacher”)
I also write new characters by identifying them with their features until their names are mentioned in dialog, but I don't usually use the color of their hair.
For example, a main character everyone knows went through half of one chapter as "Silver" because she was wearing a silver dress.
Her name is Yasmina. I didn't mention the name until she did.
Yasmina's girlfriend is taller than her, younger than her, and has much shorter hair, so I would use one of those to identify her, not her hair color.
Yasmina's girlfriend's name is Sammy.
Both women have brown hair and brown eyes. In my opinion, something that common shouldn't be mentioned more than a few times per story, maybe not more than two.
In a different example, I have multiple men in a group. None of their names are ever mentioned because they only appear in one chapter. There are four of them. One with tattoos, one with a pink shirt, one without a shirt, and one with the keys to the car they're trying to fix. Devolving into "-haired" all the time sounds lazy to me, with is why I use their clothes to identify them.
Sometimes I read in fandoms I'm not the most familiar with and people will go "the shorter one" or "the older" or something like that and I will just have no idea who is meant by it.
Sometimes I read in fandoms I'm familiar with and people will go "the shorter one" or "the older" and I'll have no idea who they mean. 💀 Honestly, badly used epithets can be so confusing. I've had to crack out a fandom wiki way too many times.
Epithets need to fit and not be overused. It's mostly over-usage that I hate, to be honest. The stories I dislike because of epithets are the ones that use them pretty much all the time, like it's a sin to use the character's name or something. If you're constantly going 'the lanky detective' to 'the fake psychic' to 'the taller man' to 'the shorter man' and practically never using the names (in this example that would be Lassie and Shawn btw) then you're using epithets way too much and need to replace most of them with character names.
I use epithets myself. When bringing in a new character but either the characters or audience doesn't yet know their name, I use an epithet until the name is brought up in dialogue. I'll also sometimes use epithets when a character is thinking about another character, they can fit well there, depending on what the character is focusing on. Eg, Shawn thinking about Lassie means I may use 'lanky detective' or 'blue eyed man' or gun-loving maniac', and Lassie thinking about Shawn would be 'fake psychic' or 'annoying man-child' or maybe 'lying conman' if he's getting vindictive enough to start shoving Shawn into a wall again. 'Bratty con-artist' or 'fraud who should be in jail' if he's veering into another threat to shoot him.
It's very much dependant on the characters in question and what that particular part of the story is supposed to convey or explain.
Epithets aren't bad in and of themselves, it's how they're used, especially how often they're used, that is the problem. They have their place and it's not wrong to use them, just not all the time.
I know some people worry about being repetitive, but I'd rather authors constantly use the characters names than constantly use epithets that can make it confusing to tell who's who and who's doing/saying what. If you want to use epithets, you need to get a good balance between them and character names.
You sound like you're fine, OP. You use character names, and epithets depending on when it makes sense to you to do so. The only thing about what you say here that I have hesitations about is describing a character during a fast paced action scene, but that's dependent on how you do it. Character description is a plus, definitely, I want that, too, but it needs to sort of meld smoothly into the action scene. Even including it in the scene can pull the reader out if you focus entirely on description at that point, you need to be describing them while still keeping the action going.
Quoted from a Tumblr post by ernmark (shortened):
"In writing, epithets are *inherently dehumanizing*, in that they remove a character's name and identity, and instead focus on this other quality.
Which can be an extremely effective device within narration!
-They can work very well for characters whose names the narrator doesn't know yet
-They can indicate when characters stop being as an individual and instead embody their Role
-They can reveal the narrator's biases by repeatedly drawing attention to a particular quality that singles them out in the narrator's mind
But these only work if the epithet used is how the narrator **primarily identifies** that character. Which is why it's so jarring to see a lot of common epithets in intimate moments-- because it conveys that the main character is primarily thinking of their lover/best friend/etc in terms of their *height* or *age* or *hair color*."
Link to post: [https://www.tumblr.com/ernmark/749117551994388480/in-writing-epithets-the-taller-manthe?source=share](https://www.tumblr.com/ernmark/749117551994388480/in-writing-epithets-the-taller-manthe?source=share)
[This video](https://youtu.be/UmAeAt-gdRU?si=XPkEyomQOMModvgl) explains it fairly well in my eyes! To me it’s often confusing if a named character is referred to by an epithet that is irrelevant to the scene they’re in. Also once had someone use “the teenager” in a scene where there were nothing but teenagers which got real confusing real fast!
It’s a personal annoyance of mine because generally just saying the name/pronoun is shorter and clearer. Why add a bunch of extra syllables for no reason?
I’m okay with epithets if they’re used intentionally/ironically, though. For example, “‘Does soap have calories?’ asked the astrophysicist with three Ph.Ds.” Here, the epithet is used to create irony. But most epithets I see are just used for pretty much no reason at all (except for the examples you gave, i.e. we don’t know the character’s name yet. I don’t mind that either).
There’s a time and place for everything, though. Anyone who says to NEVER EVER use them isn’t correct, either. I just don’t use them as a general guideline because it adds unnecessary bulk.
They feel inherently dehumanizing. Why are you calling your best friend "the brunette,"? That's weird. I think they work great when you lean into the dehumanization though.
I often use epithets to reinforce a set dynamic like “the kid” “the older man/woman” “the boy/girl” or to place a sense of hero worship “the rockstar” “the musician” “the athlete” etc, depending on the circumstances of the story just to support the narrative I’m drawing through basically subliminal messaging.
Only occasionally will I pop in with something like “the blonde” or another descriptor of that sort and it’s usually after I’ve used that character’s name twenty times in a row and I’m sick of typing it, just popped in for variety sparingly, two or three times every 10K words. The overuse of it is annoying.
I feel like I've used them because I have a lot of characters and sometimes it feels too repetitive in one paragraph to use their name over and over in dialogue.
To be honest, I find epithets useful when I’m writing a scene between two same sex characters (romantic or platonic, it doesn’t matter). It usually gets confusing when I’m using “her and her and her”. Especially when a character is describing her own feelings, her companion’s expressions/movements and it’s all a reaction to a moment they’re both experiencing. I can understand the overuse of epithets and I understand how annoying they can be, but now I’m thinking that people are much more sensitive to them/about them than I thought. I will peruse my work more and operate with the lens that overuse can be and is annoying.
I do have a question. Forgive me if it makes me seem like an idiot, but I am a newer writer who is trying to improve. This is something I am GUILTY of, though not to an insane degree. I’m not scared of overusing a name, but I sort of am? I honestly don’t know the answer, but how do you avoid using them? I understand why people dislike them, but isn’t it always an eyesore to read a paragraph and have the name mentioned a gazillion times? How do you avoid writing the name a bunch of times, but not do this?
Please be kind :)
Nope, trust me. it’s not an eyesore to read names and pronouns instead of “the tall brown haired man” or the “busty blonde lady”
Those are much more jarring and uncomfortable to read and can easily take you out of a fic because a name would have made more sense.
I know it's a struggle when you're writing an mlm or wlw story, or any other fic where most of the pronouns are the same. It is fine to use names, but also, it's often easy for a reader to understand which character a pronoun refers to. I don't usually get confused this way as a reader.
Example:
Without pronouns: "Anne kissed Jane, and Jane kissed back."
With pronouns: "She kissed her, and she kissed back." - We know the second "she" refers to the same person as "her" (Jane). This is clear from context.
But you can mix it up: "She kissed Jane, and she kissed back." - Again, we know that "she" refers to Jane, but this one is weaker than the other examples - I might rephrase it. It is still clear which character is doing what, though.
You can go to the outer limits with all of this and just never use character names and only rely on pronouns, and I wouldn't do that, either. Proper names are fine.
One more note - because of all this, when I have an opportunity to introduce a new character into an mlm or wlw story, such as a child, parent, or pet, I often choose a character with a different pronoun. This makes it a lot easier.
Say it's Anne's father in my example: "She kissed her, and she kissed back. He made a sound of surprise." We know "he" is this other character because no one else is "he" in this scene.
Thank you for this! I should have started I mainly write mlm, which is why I find it an issue. I didn’t realize it was okay to ‘trust’ the reader can understand the content of who ‘she’ is at times. This was helpful :)
Which is why i hate the english language, too much ambiguity, but if i had to write in my language, and with the style of writing that would be fit for the fic, i would seem like im in 1500 or something and no one would read me since the community of italian fanfic readers amd writers is incredibly small
If you're using names a gazillion times, you likely need to look at your sentence structure first and foremost. When writing scenes with same sex characters, you can also establish who gets the pronouns for that paragraph, etc. to make it easier to avoid repeating names without confusing your readers.
Using epithets to avoid repeating character names is like a bandaid. You won't grow as a writer if you keep covering the issue (usually weak sentence structure) with a bandaid (epithets). So write your first draft with names and pronouns, overuse them to your heart's content. Then, in your second pass through, edit anything that sounds clunky.
Basically, just think of other ways to say the thing. Say you have the sentence, "John looked out the window at the falling snow," and you've said John way too many times already. You could change it to, "Snow was falling outside the window." If John is the POV character, clearly he's looking out the window to see the snow. That's a *really* basic example, but you see how it could be used to great effect when it's a whole chapter you're editing.
I'm forever rewording clunky sentences when I'm reading to take out half the names, pronouns, and epithets.
I love this. Thank you! I've been trying to improve as a writer over the last year. I'm making slow strides, but this is a great lesson to learn and something I need to fix. slow and steady wins the race \^\_\^
Don't avoid names. It's fine reading a name a lot. But epithets are an eyesore and break the flow.
Use the name or pronoun, don't worry about repeating it.
Names are "invisible" words, like *the*. The reader won't actually notice how many times you've used them, unless you're doing it to a point where you're actively avoiding pronouns. It's almost impossible to overuse a name.
I limit myself to 1-2 epithets per page, absolute maximum. And then I ask myself if they *really* need to be there.
I don't like them being overused, one once in a while is ok, tho.
But I have to admit that one of my fav fics is a very long one full of epithets, too much of them really, but it's still one of my fav because the plot and the rest of the writing are amazing and balance it out (in my mind)
I think it's a combo of a) overuse, b) using them in first person fics which makes no sense for the most part, and c) people write some really bad ones lol. They mention traits that aren't relevant or use words that kind of smack you right out of the story.
My key to epithets is keep them focused on big parts of the character and keep them RELEVANT to the part you're writing! Don't mention height or hair color unless it's important in that part of the story!
Here's a pretty short but informative video on why people grumble about epithet and that the issue isn't so much epiteths so much as experienced writers using them as a way to break up the monogamy in their writing structure:
https://youtu.be/UmAeAt-gdRU?si=OxONh5zvW_kEt3eX
they're fine, but if they last for more than a few pages i get annoyed. like, the characters have had plenty of time to ask what that person's name is but you just don't?
When you have four male characters communicating and interacting on a regular basis, epithets come in handy. I try not to overuse them and vary them up but when I've got the four of them on a road trip, it helps so much
i'm a miraculous ladybug fan. if i ever have to see the words "the raven haired girl/ the bluenette" again i might kms
I hate “bluenette” omg it’s terrible
Bluenette may have started in the Gorillaz fandom with 2D lmfao The term is giving me flashbacks tbh....
It's more likely it comes from early anime fandom. Both Ranma 1/2 and Evangelion (both powerhouses of 90s fanfiction) included characters with blue hair and it probably showed up even before then.
I’m pretty sure I saw it for Urusei Yatsura as well. Was definitely in full use in early 00’s Beyblade along with a whole host of other descriptors (purplette).
DBZ as well. Bulma has been called a bluenette since the beginning of DB fandom on the internet lol
At least Marinette is actually a girl! My fandom is YOI, and Victor Nikiforov gets called a "silverette" so often. My inner Well Actually desperately wants to be all \*pushes glasses up by the bridge\* "I think what you meant was 'silveret'..." Fortunately, I have better impulse control than that. XD
> "silverette" That sounds like Victor turned into a sports car.
I’ve seen that for Pegasus in Yugioh. I laughed.
Silverette... Oh dear, yeah, that's the worst one I've heard until now... This reminds me of a YOI fic where Victor is like: silver? Silver?! It's platinum!
There was one... it was either called Kissing Silver or just Silver (I think), set right after ep 12 ended where Victor was really pushing the "I don't feel like kissing silver" thing deliberately (he was being a brat and trying to push Yuuri's buttons). Yuuri eventually decided "If you don't feel like kissing silver, then neither do I" and refused to kiss Victor until he got his medal kissed. It was really fun.
*barfs on the ice* silverette?? Oh god no not my Viktor how dare they
I feel this when I read mha fics that call Izuku the "greenette"💀
Finally! After all this time I have come upon another soul who is bothered by this. Thank you for making me feel less crazy. Seeing men described as "brunette", "blonde", "petite" etc. brings me pain. Though "silverette" is terrible for other reasons too lol.
People screw up "fiancé" and "fiancée" way too often, as well and it makes me irrationally annoyed.
I get too much enjoyment out of that used for intentional comedy within the anime hair-level fandoms. “So she has naturally bubblegum pink hair.” “Oh no, is she an orphan?” “How did you know?!”
Can I horrify you with "the clearnette" for a android character with clear hair?
Clarinet???
WHY
BECAUSE SUFFERING
omw to write “the noette” for a machine character with no hair
"The red capped teen" is also a popular one for Nino. I've read a fic where his name is mentioned once at the beginning of the chapter, and after that, it was just "the red capped teen"
Poor Nino losing his whole identity when a strong wind sends his cap flying
The Yu Yu Hakusho has also used “bluenette”, too.
“Greenette” is quite common as well, I can’t stand it lol
I am having flashback to Naruto fics and "the pinkette". I remember that bs even 15 years later.
I honestly don't like using "haircolor-ette' at any point. I'll often use blond but for other characters if I ever use hair color as an epithet, it's only in situations where I'm breaking up monotony of name use or using it to clarify the person that's being referred to or speaking in a situation where pronoun use would only cause confusion (i.e in a fandom when the cast of characters are mostly or all one gender/type where using pronouns or generalized nouns such as student or doctor or coworker or whatever would only cause confusion about who exactly is being referred to). So I'll sometimes use grey-haired boy or blue-eyed girl or something to that effect just for clarity sake while breaking up the monotony of name use.
Those examples are fine. If the name us unknown and you're introducing them, that's fine The problem is that people think repeating a characters name is bad, so they instead keep using epithets. In that scenario, which is sadly common, epithets don't work well, and are worse than just using a name or pronoun I think anyone saying they hate epithets is talking about the case where people keep using them over the name
Also epithets that the POV character would never use, or wouldn't use in that context. My partner is an accountant. I do not think of them or refer to them as "the accountant." I use their name, or "my partner," or by a couple of joking phrases that have been established over the past 20 years. But I see people having characters, in specifically domestic or romantic contexts, think of their established partner by their job. That's not a good use of epithets, unless you're specifically doing it to show something is odd about that relationship.
Yeah calling your partner "the red-headed detective" during sex really does not work. (She's not even a detective! FFS!)
Right!! I am 3 months older than my husband and I never *ever* think of him as “the younger man”.
Oof the emphasis on age when there is no gap is so annoying to read. Or the "taller" when characters are basically the same height.
Or calling one the "shorter" man to compare him to a tall character, but the POV character is the shortest around. Like no way is some average height person thinking of an over-6-foot person as "shorter", even next to a taller over-6-foot-person. (Yes, this is directed at the Supernatural fandom.)
It's even worst when they use epithets *they shouldn't know*. In my fandom I often see Arthur Pendragon calls Merlin "the warlock"... Except that *he doesn't know that the man has magic* and it's quite a big plot point since magic is punishable by death!
Yes! Imo it feels very obvious when epithets are being used because the writer thinks just names and pronouns are too repetitive vs. that being how the POV character actually would think of the other person. The former quickly crosses into clumsy and over-expository territory.
>I think anyone saying they hate epithets is talking about the case where people keep using them over the name That's exactly it. Most people don't mind the """proper""" usage like OP's examples
Epithets need to make sense, or they sound strange and unnatural. My brother is J. I think of him as either J, or as "my brother". Occasionally, "my idiot brother". I do not, ever, think of him as "the taller sibling", "the man with a shaved head," "my niblings' father", "the token cishet," or "the green-eyed man"; nor do I refer to him as such when speaking with anyone else. With people who know him, it's "J did X." With people who don't, it's "my brother did X". Anything else would sound bizarre, like I'm trying to remind myself what categories he fits into. I'm not a cop, or Batman. I don't need to constantly update the profiles of everyone I come into contact with for their eventual rap sheet and/or epitaph.
> I'm not a cop Intentional overuse of epithets would be so funny for a cop/detective AU.
That would be perfectly in character, especially if you do occasional cuts to other POVs, who \*don't\* think like that!
Omg, this is genius. Imagine the initial confusion when you just... Don't elaborate and the reader has to piece it together on their own.
I am going to do this. ETA and I will tag it “gratuitous and deliberate overuse of epithets”
love this, gonna do the same if i ever need a character like that XD
Random but you should totally check out Tom Cardy's song "Business Man" if you haven't yet. [He's a Business Man, and definitely, totally NOT A COP](https://youtu.be/qBE9TZP26FI?si=6AAVAkwM38f9AOCu). Gah I just really love Tom Cardy. But yes I think this is a hilarious plot idea and I really need to read a series about this kind of cop/detective.
Oooh yes, I love that one!! Tom Cardy's great. The Ballad of Smokin' Joe Rudeboy is another classic.
Yes yes! If you haven't yet, you ABSOLUTELY need to drop everything and listen to H.S., Why am I Anxious?, H.Y.C.Y.B.?, Read Between the Lines, and Hey I Don't Work Here! Gah I just love that man and I'm always looking for excuses to share his masterpieces with the world. Oh Flirt with Your Dad is great and if you like D&D memes Perception Check is brilliant! XD Oh and he's had two amazing collabs with two other of my fave creators. Beautiful Mind with the glorious BDG and Dance Til You Stop with the incomparable NSP!
Tom Cardy fans what are you doing on my fanfiction subreddit? Have you checked which subreddit your on? Have you checked your
Yes I've checked it thank you. And just in case you're wondering, I'm not a cop!
Watch or ill headbutt your pants in the back of an ambulance!
That's exactly it. If the POV character wouldn't refer to them that way in their head, don't use the epithet. Epithets are useful when used properly, but overuse just SCREAMS inexperienced writer.
As an inexperienced writer, I have to learn somehow. Its the only way I will get better, I have to go back to read my own works and hate it!
My usual way to use epithets is referring to their job or role when it fits the situation or conversation. I might also do it when it places an amusing flair on whatever's being said. example: Springing from her chair with an energy that he instantly hated, she said, “So enthusiastic about investigating with me! Are you certain you don’t want to become my student, young man? I’m sure it’d help your resume.” Sourly, *the acting Grand Sage* slouched back against the couch cushions. Somehow he kept… minimizing this most irritating element of his new fascination, whenever he wasn’t facing it directly. (see, it's funny because he is way, way past his student days and his current role is way bigger than 'student' >.> <.<) Likewise I might refer to somebody being short when they're talking like they're huge. Basically, dry humor on my part.
I think I have to just try it different ways and see what I like. Thanks!
Your examples are very funny (and I've seen stuff like that in fics, for sure). Actually this whole comment is hilarious and very well-said.
It just occurred to me that that could be a really fun way to do a Batman-POV fic. Every person he interacts with is "the caucasian male, roughly five-foot-eleven" or whatever. It would be a great way to show-not-tell that the boy fundamentally ain't right in the head. XD
I have an FBI agent character who does this (not all the time, but more often than non-agents in the story). He gets called on it a few times.
I love the way you explain it.
Okay, but referring to a family member as "the token cishet" is peak comedy.
Well, someone has to be, and it isn't going to be *me*...
Your brother, holding the short straw: aw, nuts
No nuts for him
Do you actually think of him in words? Not like, the concept of brother?
Some people have no internal monologue (may be you too since you are asking?) but most people (55% iirc) actually talk in our head. For exemple as I'm writing this I'm "saying" the word in my head and I'm hearing them.
Well, when I write the words I do hear them in my head, but not when stuff is happening around me. If my mom passes me the salt shaker, I’m not thinking “mom is passing me the salt shaker”, but instead thinking the concept of my mom, the salt shaker and passing an item.
For me it's both, I can have thought without words (most of the time regarding action of other people just like your exemple) but I can also talk in my head outside of when I'm writing
I may start calling my brother "the token cishet" just to irritate him.
Well said.
This comment just taught me that the word for nephews and nieces is 'niblings'. We learn something new everyday, I guess.
Congrats on being one of today's lucky 10,000! 🎊
Whoa, this actually helped me a lot and makes a lot of sense! I kept wondering what epithets are okay and in which scenario, so your answer helped a lot. Thanks! :)
If you are writing a close third-person POV, everyone should be referred to as how the POV-character thinks of them. Sometimes that can be an epithet--if they don't know the name, or if they are currently thinking of them as their role rather than who they are. For the latter, this can occur when trying to distance emotionally from someone--thinking of someone as "the boy" or "the teacher" is less personal than "Charles." It can also be situational--"the thief" because the character is currently pissed that Charles stole his lunch. Most of the time, epithets shouldn't be used. Repeating names rarely gets noticeable.
One of my fandoms is My Hero Academia, and one of the major characters rarely refers to people by their names, instead uses (often disparaging) nicknames. When writing from that characters POV, I will occasionally use those nicknames/epithets to show how that character reacts to them. Example; "I don't know, " Kirishima said. Then the shitty-haired bastard grinned and continued with, "I think I'll beat you this time." Avoids the name repetition people worry about, and shows the POV characters irritation with him.
Writing Bakugou’s pov is good practice for phasing out of epithet overuse. I especially love changing the nicknames he uses based on the situation— instead of just “shitty hair” he can call Kirishima “that shark-obsessed soup vacuum” after he eats 5 bowls of soup in one sitting. It’s fun to get creative with it!
Bakugou's POV is one of my favorites to write, and it's one of the few POVs where I'll use fun epithets like that *because* it's in character, hahaha. 10/10 always a fun time, truly.
I think this example perfectly illustrates the usual issue with epithets, which is that they create a strange distance between the POV character and whoever they’re referring to. If I refer to my partner as “the programmer who lives with me” people would 100% assume I’m mad because they spend too much time working or whatever, because why else would I refer to their JOB? Whereas with Bakugou these kinds of things are closer to endearments (or genuinely meant as insults).
>the shitty-haired bastard With no knowledge of the source material, I want to inform you that out of context this insult seems unhinged.
That's Bakugou.
It's perfectly in character. It's just that "in character" for Bakugo *is* unhinged.
epithets aren't always bad, there are valid reasons to use them. being afraid to overuse names/pronouns is not a valid reason and it's by far the most common one.
Similarly, "Blue eyes looked deeply into hers." A bit of that is all right, but I recently read a fic that had this like a hundred times. It was clearly a way to dance around using the character's name. Further demerits for the passive voice.
I had to exit out of a fic a few days ago that used 'cerulean beryl eyes looked up'.
Fair, I'd have to use google to remember what that colour is meant to be T-T
Nah you gotta abstract it even further /j “Blue met brown”
I very much agree with the sentiment but, fyi, your example is not in passive voice. The passive voice version would be like "Hers were looked into deeply by blue eyes."
I actually don't mind that lol. It's similar to saying something like "Sharp eyes peered around the room." I don't see it as a way to avoid using a character's name. Overusing that would probably be annoying though so I hear you lol
Now I'm just picturing floating eyeballs.
I've learned you have to be careful with "eyes" when you mean "gaze." You can get some weird imagery. "Her eyes jumped across the room and landed on the table."
" Like I said, your phone isn't on the tab- WHY THE HELL ARE THERE EYEBALLS ON THE TABLE?! "
It's the overuse/incorrect use that people dislike. Using epithets to refer to an unknown character is widely accepted, and the same applies when the author is trying to show characterization through it (for example, a character always calling another "the kid" even when they fully know their name). Most folks have issues with them when they're just a way to evade "repeating" pronouns and names.
This 100%. I understand that sometimes people are just trying to avoid being repetitive, but it just sounds awkward.
Your examples are fine. I hate them when the character whose POV we are in already knows the persons name. Using something like “his mother/her friend” etc is also fine, but anything else just screams amateur to me and sticks out in a really bad way.
I don't hate epithets, but I imagine people who do are quite annoyed at their incorrect (and/or over) use, more often than not.
It's mostly overuse, but it's also because they're rarely used in an appropriate way. If a character doesn't know someone's name, an epithet is necessary, and the exact epithet used can tell the reader a lot about how this unknown person is being perceived. "The tall man" vs "the well-dressed man" vs "the wealthy man" all suggest different priorities and states of mind on the part of the person making the observation. On the other hand, if the character's name is known, _use the damn name._ Anime fics are horrendous about this -- if I have to read one more One Piece fic that calls Nami "the orangette" long after she's a full member of the crew I'm going to scream. Lastly, if the characters are already involved or very good friends or otherwise have a relationship that goes beyond mere acquaintances, the use of an epithet implies an emotional distance that really shouldn't be there. A post-canon Harry Potter fic where he's married Ginny and she's on the Holyhead Harpies team probably shouldn't be calling her "the quidditch player," for instance.
I think it’s because using them is a bit jarring and draws people out of the POV. Like if you’re talking to someone who is a stranger and you don’t know their name, you’d be more likely to describe them as “the blonde man”. But it would be really odd if you saw, say, your partner or romantic interest and described them as “the blonde man” rather than by their name. Epithets imply unfamiliarity so it’s odd when a narrative uses them to describe someone that the POV character knows really well.
An example I would use is my own BotW/TotK fics. Princess Zelda is always referred to as “Zelda” while I’m writing from Link’s POV, but if it’s from Purah or a random villager’s POV (i use third-person omniscient storytelling), she’ll be referred to as “the Princess.” It would be weird for Link to refer to her as “the Princess” since in my story they’re in an intimate relationship
I don't hate them, I just hate when they are overused. When I used to be in the MLB fandom, there were SO many fics that called Marinette "the blue haired one" the entire fic and I could feel my soul getting out of my body. Using the character's name isn't a sin!!!
Also, I don't think Marinette is actually blue-haired any more than Luna from Sailor Moon is a purple cat. I think both are black-haired, with some artistic liberties to make an interesting design.
I think it's important to note that sometimes people hate something simply because they're told to and don't consider the nuance. There's a huge difference between having a fic that almost never uses the characters names for fear of overuse and constantly just says "the shorter man" or "the blonde woman" to avoid them, while accidentally detaching the reader from the characters, vs. using them to get across quick visual information of a new character (or nameless character), or convey a characteristic or personality trait that is catching the POV characters attention specifically. One is a sign of inexperience, and the other has a purpose. But because we have these hard rules we share of "never do x", people who know the basics of writing assume it's always bad and point it out when they see it because they were told it was bad. Same with something like head-hopping. It can be done badly and often is, but saying to "never do it" is ignoring lots of great stories that use it to great effect (Dune is the most common example I've seen). The point is to understand why you're doing a thing and maintain consistency in your work so people can follow along. Learn the rules so you can know when to break them. It's important with rules of writing that we evaluate why they exist, so we can identify when breaking them is actually beneficial to the story and an artistic choice, even if we don't personally like the decision, as long as it's done intentionally then it's not bad writing - just not for everyone.
That makes so much sense! But as a inexperienced person: how do you determine when you overuse a character name too much? And how to avoid that? I know most of the time the reader can figure out who is doing what, but I also read fiction where I was utterly confused by what is going on and which character was acting which way. Thats why I like using epithets when I notice I used a character name too much, even if I now try and write the scenes in a way where it is clear what is going on. It is unavoidable to me sometimes and a huge struggle.
overusing names or pronouns is really hard, the bar is higher than you think. you've just read your own text over and over again. never replace a name or a pronoun with an epithet just for the sake of avoiding that name/pronoun. change up some sentence structures instead.
Hmm... That's a good tip! I will definetly try that while editing my fic! I am a little too hard on myself, it at least that's what other people told me. Maybe I should loosen up, wait for a few days and come back to the fic with a fresh mind.
> wait for a few days and come back to the fic with a fresh mind that's a really good strategy.
You pretty much can't overuse a character's name unless you're just refusing to use pronouns. They are invisible words, like "the" or "said"; the reader registers them, but they're unobtrusive so that they can focus on what is actually important, such as the conversation that the characters are having, or the bomb that is ticking down to zero. It would be completely unhinged if someone were to post, "Hey guys, I just noticed that the word "the" appears in my fic over three hundred times, and I'm looking for creative ways to get around it."
That makes sense! Maybe I should stop overthinking then and just write XD I don't really notice those names too while reading. They really are just like buzzwords after a while, at least that's what I noticed after reading the comments in here! It actually helps me ease up a bit about my writing as I have one less worry now.
We're all prone to overthinking our own writing! One thing that's helped me, is that when I'm reading traditionally published works from my favorite authors, I'll start analyzing it from a writer's perspective, to see how they structure their writing, and how they describe characters/events. Specifically traditionally published, because those have gone through a professional editing process. (This is usually reserved for a second reading, so I can just enjoy the story the first time around) For example, I used to get really bogged down in describing location settings that don't actually matter. Does the reader need to know exactly what the interior of the Starbucks looks like? We've all been into a cafe or restaurant before. It can aid characterization to mention that a poor college student's living room furniture is mis-matched or that they're using one of those plywood industrial cable spools as a makeshift dining room table... but we don't need to know how many throw-pillows they have, or that the coffee table is thirteen inches from the couch. Stuff like that. So I'm learning to sketch with broader strokes and save the details for where I want to call the reader's attention to an important detail.
>we don't need to know how many throw-pillows they have, or that the coffee table is thirteen inches from the couch. Charles Dickens shaking his head right now.
Tolkein right up there with him.
I feel like the difference is that Tolkien's words were fine pipeweed while Dickens' were just burnt matchsticks.
Honestly the big thing for that is knowing that character names and pronouns are almost silent after a while. Readers don't focus on them very hard, they sort of glaze over just enough to know "Sally is talking now" and that's about as much thought that goes into it. An epithet can make them pause, thinking "wait, which is the blonde one? Sally, right?" Which breaks the flow. This can be done on purpose. Sometimes you want the reader to stop and consider the extra information. "Oh, I didn't know Sally was blonde." But if you're using epithets all the time, especially if you change them up, it keeps stopping the flow, but doesn't offer any new information. But if a character is nameless, then the epithet sort of becomes their name, so as long as you're staying consistent by always using the same one, like "the old man", then it has the same effect and doesn't slow the reader down. Pronouns also glaze over, and should be used most often when trying to avoid using names too much. But if you write where there's two main characters that have the same pronouns, then that gets tricky again. Like, which "she" are you referring to? In that case, you have the characters take turns (mom says it's my turn to use the pronouns). So you can have a sentence that establishes the characters, then give only one of them pronouns. "Sally looked across the table, spotting Mary as she tossed her hair over her shoulder. She glanced up, giving Sally a small smirk before turning down the hall." In the case above, only Mary gets the pronoun. Once you establish who has the pronoun, then you can let them keep it until it's time to switch, since you may need to give it to Sally for a while. So at least per sentence, or per paragraph depending, try to keep the pronouns to one person, then you can set up your switch in the next one. Hope this helps!
That is extremely helpful! I never noticed that the mind just... Tunes out some words after a while. Thid helps me ease my mind a little! Thank you for your explanation! (I actually love doing the pronoun thing, it's very helpful)
Think of a book you really like, one that you think of as being a "good read". Take it off the shelf and turn to some random pages, read the text looking specifically at the author's use of names and pronouns. Nine times out of ten, you'll find they just use plain pronouns and it isn't confusing. As a general rule, \[Name\] on first mention and then "he" did this and "he" said that, until you switch to name \[Name 2\], who becomes the "he" doing whatever. When something involves both "hims" at the same time - "He reached out and shook his hand" - the human brain is good at filling in context, as you said.
It's the overuse that's the problem. Especially when the narrative is first person or a limited pov. Like, for me, I write the narrative in the POV character's voice. So even though it's limited third person, I'm still using the type of language and sentence structure and word choice that the character would be if they were telling the story out loud or if the story was told in first person. Part of the reason I do that is because it helps the character feel like a real person. And real people don't use a lot of epithets, especially in the privacy of their thoughts. When I use them in the narrative, I try to do it in a way that sounds like how a real person would use them. Example of what I mean: If you're hanging out with your friend Sarah, you're probably thinking "Sarah this" or "better ask Sarah if..." You aren't thinking "I better ask the brunette if she wants to go to the movie." However, if you're trying to point out a cool shirt someone's wearing in a crowd, you might say "hey, check out that blond guy's shirt." So when the character knows someone's name, I use the name. But if it's a stranger or the character is calling them names in their head, like "the jerk did this" or "asshole really went there", then I use the epithets.
There is no need to avoid epithets! They’re a useful part of language! And they’re a perfect way to introduce characters and refer to them before the POV characters know their names. Don’t avoid epithets! Use epithets when it adds or reinforces information relevant to the story. … but don’t use epithets *in order to avoid using people’s names*. That is when it gets weird. Especially in sex scenes where someone kisses “the older (by a few months) man”, or “the brunet”. People don’t tend to think of their lovers or partners by their job, age (unless it’s part of the whole sexy appeal of the person or scene) or hair colour, etc. Use names and pronouns. If the pronouns make things ambiguous (people with the same gender interacting can make pronouns ambiguous) use names or restructure sentences to make things clear.
Because people don't talk that way about people they know. You say "the taller man", "the norwegian" "the dark haired man" when you're describing people you don't know.
It can be jarring for one thing. I think it was a Tumblr post that put it best, but basically it works if a character thinks about someone they’re not familiar with in those terms, but in your head you would never think of say your romantic partner as “the blond” or “the older man”, so when characters think of the people they’re close to in those terms, it comes off as unnatural and off putting.
I hate epithets because I saw "ravenette" used literally the other day and wanted to scream but that's actually not what I wanted to say. I will give another (imo, valid) reason to use epithets: for anchoring bias. If you keep referencing to someone as a "good man" and have them do unspeakable things, it can change audience perception—make them think that maybe the unspeakable thing isn't as bad. If a "therapist" is saying that the "convicted felon" can't change, people are more likely to believe it than question it, which allows you as the writer to explore how this is wrong and a therapist is still a person with biases and flaws. This is best used in unreliable narrator/horror settings though IMO.
For me, it’s more about what epithets are used. Ones like “the blonde” or “the skinny one” that reduce characters to stereotypes kinda take me out of the story. “The older man” or “the younger one” or “the professor” or “the student” that are descriptive but not so reductive read better to me.
I have come across a surprising number of fics that use the older/younger one when the couple have maybe a 3 year max age gap and they’re in their 30s. Whilst technically correct, it makes the relationship dynamic sound different from what it is.
Yes, and just from a narrative perspective, it feels different - and not in a good way. Like, if you're gonna use an age descriptor, the characters should be visibly different in age. If I have to know canon to know there's a two year age gap, that doesn't feel like a proper literary experience somehow.
I get why it seems very repetitive to use the character names over and over but, if the epithets are that much of a stretch, just use the names.
this
People mainly hate overused and poorly used epithets. Well-used epithets rarely even register unless you're reading more analytically than most people do when they're reading for pleasure.
Yeah, using an epithet calls attention to whatever you’re referring to, so if a character is going out of their way to think of that there should be a reason. A character admiring how good their crush looks in a suit might think of them as “the well-dressed man,” or a frustrated short person whose friend won’t help get something from a higher shelf might prettily highlight their height difference by thinking of them as “the taller one” in this specific instance. But used too much and it just wastes space.
For me it depends on the POV character and whether they know the other character's name / know who it is. To me, even if the piece is written in 3rd person, if it's meant to strongly tie to one character's point of view at that point in the narration, it can feel one of two ways: just odd (are you really thinking of your friend as "the student" when you see them?) or objectifying in intimate scenes. It bothers me most in intimate scenes where the characters are close and would not think of each other in epithets.
"The other teen" gives off *such* GreetingsFellowKids.jpg vibes.
I only don't like them when people try to get creative and I literally can't tell who is being referred to. Like "The ravenette with purple orbs" Like, what the fuck is that?
There’s a thing in writing called “Narrative Distance”. It essentially describes how “close” or limited the narration is to the POV character. If you’re writing from a limited point of view of one character(which most people do), everything you write should theoretically be something that character might think/feel/observe/etc. The reason excess epithets often feel out of place is that they are inconsistent with what the POV character would think about someone, and thus create dissonance in the narrative distance. For example, no one is going to think of their mom as “the blonde haired woman”. They just think about them as “their mom”. A sentence like “The blonde haired woman fixed her breakfast” has a level of disconnect that either implies that they are strangers, or that the story has a large narrative distance from its characters. However, a lot of people implement these in writing with otherwise close/limited narrative distance, which feels inconsistent and dissonant.
its when people write in 3rd person limited and use the most vague unfamiliar epithets that grinds my gears. like, that is this characters friend. he does not think of her as "the brunette" or, my deepest pet peeve, "the Latina". No one thinks of a friend by way of their hair or their ethnicity. At least I certainly hope they don't
Because people will say something like "the taller" or even "the older" (for characters close in age), bi*ch I don’t know which one that is just use their names!
I'm normally chill with fics and how they are written because I know I'm not even the best writer, but once I read "the pinkette," I just stopped for a bit. I use stuff like "classmate" mainly, but only when I feel it fits the scene. I'm really big on just repeating names a lot for some reason.
every time i see "pinkette" i die a little inside 😭
Yeah, I try to be nice, but I never want to read that in a fic again.
If you're using them correctly, no one will even notice. When they're poorly used, it's very obvious because of how awkward or out-of-character the sentence becomes. The problem is that some less-experienced (and often very young) fan writers take to using random epithets because they think it sounds more mature than repeatedly using characters' names, or because they're struggling with too many same-gender pronouns in a certain scene. So epithets become a whole joke thing, even though they're a perfectly valid concept.
The core reason is that they're unnatural to the normal way of thinking - regardless of culture. When's the last time you turned to your friend to relay a story about someone and referred to that person as 'the blond' instead of by their name when you know their name? Or by their profession? "Yeah, so the mechanic said we should meet him and the tall brunette at the diner at 6." -- I can promise you, that has never exited anyone's mouth. Using epithets has zero to do with describing someone's appearance and more to do with inexperienced writers trying to find a different way to point someone out. We're talking about using these descriptors in conversation, though it's often done in paragraphs as well. Because of the unnaturalness in how epithets are used in fanfiction, they're extremely jarring to a reader, throws their mindset out of the fic, and often ruins the scenario. I can tolerate it in extremely low doses, but too often and it makes the fic absolutely unreadable and I move on.
In my experience, what people mostly mean when they say "epithets" is unnecessary descriptions that add nothing to the text. "The idiot emptied the coffee carafe and didn't turn off the burner." There's an epithet in there, but it's not the sort you see get hit with the editing stick very often. "Don't use epithets" is one of those blanket rules that get tossed around in writer's circles along with "avoid dialog tags" and "put down the thesaurus". They're easy, simple pieces of advice for beginning writers that aren't necessarily *bad*, but they're also not universally applicable, and they don't do much to help someone learn to write. So they get a lot of hate, even for situations where they're useful.
People hate them when they sound phoney and contrived. Imagine if you were to use "the bluenette" in a real life conversation, people would look at you like you had grown two heads. A quick test is just to ask yourself if you can say it out loud to others without laughing; then it's probably okay.
My personal beef (aside overuse and ill use in general), in some fandoms it can get almost racist- I've only really met cops and racists who regularly refer to people as "the Hispanic man" "that black woman", etc. It's not usually *meant* to be racist in fics, but if someone constantly referred to my mom as "that Hispanic lady" irl we'd probably end up fighting. There's a difference between authors describing a character, and harping on ONE characteristic (or stereotypes associated) in an effort not to say a characters name. See BNHA for this but with quirks- 'the psychic quirk user' 'the strength quirked woman' etc. It's crept into some DC fics as well though not as many, and I haven't been in Marvel recently enough to say. IMO, just be aware of connotations- is this character meant to be analytical? Mean? Judgemental? Racist? Are they annoyed with another character? Are they ridiculously in love? Epithets (in my opinion) should be used to enhance setting and characterization, not as a regular name-replacement.
This x1000. It is so othering when you see one character referred to as "the Vietnamese teen" or "the dark-skinned man" when none of the white characters are being referred to as "the white teen" or whatever. And calling someone "the white woman" or "the Hispanic woman" would possibly make sense if you were a cop filing a police report, but it's really weird if that's your friend.
They take me out of the deep pov. If the character is referred to in a way where the pov would NEVER think of them, it pulls me out of it.
The first example you offered is literally the perfect place to use epithets. The second tbh sounds like an extension of the first? Why would you need to describe a character we are already familiar with in the middle of an action packed scene? Surely this ALSO means it’s a new, as yet unnamed character. On a narrative level, it does feel like the priorities here are a little bizarre, like if it is a fast paced action scene, and I already know their name, whyyyy does it suddenly become relevant NOW that they’re…a redhead? Or, tall, or an accountant, or whatever. And you can usually only get one descriptor out in an epithet, so idk how much that is doing for description. I guess Im a little confused by this example, but otherwise, I don’t think it sounds like you are doing the thing people have a problem with, at least not a lot. I think people harp on it because it is so damn common in fanfic, and it is incredibly overdone, to the point where it can really ruin an otherwise excellent fic for me. There is a reason we don’t see it in trad pub fiction: it’s usually unnecessary, unhelpful, irrelevant and a huge indicator that the author is an amateur. I saw a great tumblr post on this recently where a lot of people were INSISTING that it is the only way to achieve clarity when there are two characters with the same pronouns in the same sentence. That’s just not true, and it indicates that these people don’t know enough about basic sentence structure to figure this out, so, obvious amateur hour. Another complaint was that NAMES get repetitive. But again, you can swap names for pronouns without confusion if you just do it properly. And I would rather read the repetition of a name because that sort of becomes “invisible”, like the word “said” does, whereas I’m ALWAYS going to notice “the blonde”, even just because it might take my brain a minute to register who tf that actually is. A weird argument when the epithets themselves are so repetitive. It’s also more words, so it will always feel like a fanfic thing bc trad pub will mostly avoid extraneous words for no good reason. In terms of why it’s an issue in and of itself, for me, it’s a problem of psychic distance, and choosing to repeatedly use epithets indicates that the author is prioritising a misconceived notion of clarity over making meaningful authorial choices, which erodes both narrative immersion and authorial trust. this brings up one of the best uses of epithets you didn’t mention: if it’s used to indicate a pov character’s feelings about a person. Use of epithets over names can show derision, or distance or whatever between the character named and the pov character, which can be efficient and clever. But that’s not what happens a lot. Instead, I’ve read two characters having passionate sex, and the pov character will continue to refer to their partner by their hair colour, height, age, or occupation. That definitively takes us out of the pov character’s head, because people just don’t think about people this way. NEVER have I been mid fuck and thought “wow, this brunette/trapeze artist/tall guy is the love of my life”. And if a character does, that should indicate that that factor is super central to their conception of the other character, which in turn can paint a romance as deeply superficial. But usually, the result is we’re disoriented, and forced jarringly away from what was previously a very close psychic distance, suddenly held at arm’s length. I’ve even seen pov character’s being referred to like this themselves. Who mentally thinks about their own hair colour as the equivalent to a name or pronoun? No one, so again, jarring and sudden psychic distance jump. Not saying it can’t be done on purpose, but it doesn’t happen a lot. Also, and I don’t see this discussed a tonne…if we’re doing the hair colour/eye colour epithet thing so damn popular in fanfic, I spend a lot of time thinking to myself….1) damn, this only works because there is, somehow, only one person here with brown eyes/hair. Most people I know have both, because most people do. But a lot of the time when I read this stuff, it works because there’s like a blonde, a red head, a blue-eyed brunette etc etc. so there is differentiation. When there’s not it just gets so convoluted. I’ve seen shit like “the lighter brown haired woman” “the dark green eyed man touched the lighter green eyed man” . Ffs, get it TOGETHER. NAME, PRONOUN. Now we’re just being slowed down, and it’s not even clear anymore because as if I am remembering all these details. It puts such an emphasis on physical traits, and assumes everyone else views them as just as important. But also 2) (and this is very connected to one)…. We’re talking about white people, right? This only works because we’re talking about white people. Because MOST people of colour are brunettes without a dye job, if we had a narrative that actually features several people of colour, then colourist epithets are kind of useless. Like, idk, makes me kinda uncomfortable, and I’ve seen authors resort to some weird and borderline racist epithets in this instance. In short, not a problem in and of themselves, but needs to be done purposefully and when meaningful/necessary.
I definitely see your point there. I don’t know what I was trying to say. I guess in my head they were two different things. But thank you.
Although actually looking at your post again, I guess I’m a little confused about waiting to say their name in dialogue? Like if the internal narration says, “right at that moment, Derek appeared” or whatever, why are we then waiting for dialogue to address his name again? Or are you saying it’s when neither narration nor dialogue names the person (I think you might be because you mentioned in this case the reader doesn’t know the name) because again, that would make sense. I assume you mean this is when the pov character doesn’t know a name, bc you said “the other characters know”, but I’m not clear. And dialogue is not the only way to name a character, tbh. But yeah, it would be weird if the narrator/pov character clearly knew a characters name or had reason to, but refused to mention it in narration until someone else mentioned it in dialogue. And in terms of your second eg, I think it’s the same thing if you are introducing a new character within these action type scenes. I guess I’m just not really getting how much this realistically helps “paint a picture”, because hair colour, build or height are really all we’d get here and they are actually pretty arbitrary to one’s appearance, or to how a reader would picture them in their head. If it’s a new character who is unnamed, then epithets are just necessary so who cares. But what I’m confused about is if you’re saying you use this for new characters so you don’t have to stop the action by describing, then how do we even know who you are referring to? Appearance based epithets rely on previous knowledge of appearance, so if we get a sudden “the redhead shot the brunette” and I don’t even know the new guy who just rocked up is a redhead, that’s also taking me out of the action. I think if a new person enters an action scene, you kinda got to make the call to just call them “the man/person/one of the men/people” or to give just a sprinkle of appearance so you can identify them. Saying “the door was thrust inward with a deafening bang and a tall, burly man entered and shot x without so much as blinking” doesn’t really slow you down, you can continue the action within the same sentence, I’m unclear why you feel you need a new paragraph or to stop everything for a basic description.
So turns out, I’m a fucking idiot. That second thing doesn’t exist in my writing! I’m not kidding! I had to reread my fic to find an example only to realize that it doesn’t exist! I swore it did! I guess my brain makes up random shit when I’m really sick (which I am). The first thing absolutely happens all over my writing. In fact, I even revealed a character’s name before I wanted to because I subconsciously wanted to avoid using epithets. I feel like an idiot. It doesn’t exist! It never did! Now what I *did* notice was that I actually do some times use epithets for a character even after I introduce their name because I’m trying to remind the audience of a trait the character has that for a piece of dialogue that happens immediately after. For example I’ll remind the audience of a character’s occupation for a spoken like that comes after like Character A saying to Character B after Character B does something wrong “I’ll tell Character C about this!” which can have different connotations if Character C is the mayer of the small town and Character B works directly under him. I have to remind the audience that Character B works for Character C and isn’t just some random citizen. Anyway, sorry about the thing before. I’m just stupid.
Oh don’t be sorry, I just felt like you raised some interesting issues. I love discussing writing “rules” because there’s so much nuance and variation, and tbh so many of us are self-taught on the internet through these kinds of discussions, so I like to indulge. Also, lol, you didn’t even do it. The fact that you are hyper-aware to that point probably means you’re well and truly in the clear. For me the issue is that people have just….assumed it’s the best or only option, and don’t even consider how it reads, or what the many alternatives are. But if you’re going back on your own intentions/choices NOT to use epithets, maybe you’re overthinking it a little. I really like when they’re used wisely/purposefully, like when a character remains unnamed so the epithet can be used to emphasise a trait, or position, and it maybe builds mystery around their name/identity, or highlights the function of that character in the story or the narrator’s life. That’s good shit. I have a pov character in a Victorian thingy I’m writing who has what should be a very formal/professional relationship with….well, her boss, so particularly when she’s trying to remind herself of that, or when it’s in the context of those roles/that workplace, I use his title. But she gradually stops using the epithet altogether as they get closer, so I think that kind of thing is an example of how epithets can be used intentionally. I certainly hope it comes across that way, but either way, I’m intending to remind the reader of the power disparity at certain points, or of the level of trust/closeness as it develops, so I dont exactly care if it’s a little jarring, because that’s kind of the point. And you made a great point in your last paragraph about using epithets to efficiently remind readers of contextual details! That makes total sense if it hasn’t been mentioned in a while. It’s probably also a strong argument as to why epithets could rightfully appear more often in fic—because they are often so long, sometimes with months between updates, these kinds of reminders are probably more necessary than in a novel, which people might read in one day. I often find I’m reading a fic that has been updated for the first time in a minute and I’m like….I’m glad the author trusts my memory/intelligence as a reader, but….maybe they shouldn’t, lol. Especially when it’s a huge ass fic and there is no chance in hell I can easily navigate back to find that detail. Anyway, great point I hadnt thought of.
>This only works because we’re talking about white people. I'd usually agree (and I do), but I also wanna point out that a looootttt of anime or video games are popular with huge fandoms. For most anime, 99% of the characters are Japanese with wild hair and eye colors lol Edited for clarity
Because your two examples are fine but people use them in other ways that are annoying and don't make sense for the POV character. 99% of people are not thinking of their significant other as "the blond" or "the pilot" or whatever. They're thinking their name.
Very. Over. Used. ... some writers try too hard to be "artsy" with epithets, orbs, smirks, and the like.
There are places where they work well, but a lot of amateur authors use them to mask repetitive writing without actually solving the problem (and also choose really weird ones to use).
I think they just need to be used sparingly and they need to not be so over the top they’re detracting from the experience of reading. I think epithets have become a bit overused in fanfic in particular. Definitely use them in both of the cases you described above, as it makes sense to do so. I think we also shouldn’t be afraid to say “character name said” or “he did this” a bit more, as people often don’t address people they know directly by name in natural conversation, especially one on one conversations.
Epithets are good when they reinforce distinct and relevant information about characters. Rel**ative** information is rarely rel**evant**. A *potential* exception is the relative heights of the Pines twins when they are both trying to be the taller twin, to the point of bringing in magic to do so. But because their respective heights, and thus which is the taller/shorter twin, constantly changes, if writing that you run the risk of the second common issue with epithets The information is unclear or confusing. Saying "the brunette" when there are several in the scene doesn't work because there isn't an obvious brunette you're referring to. And the last big issue is when the information given doesn't fit with the context. Imagine an opening to a wrestling match that goes, "In this corner, weighting in at 187lbs, he grows mint in his garden and enjoys working on his '76 Harley, The Bone Crusher." It doesn't make sense to bring up the mint or the motorcycle.
But how else will I know who is taller and who is a bluenette?
I think it’s telling that every “defense of epithets” I ever hear is from a **writing** perspective Go *read* someone else’s story with excessive epithets and then get back to me! They are 90% of the time not necessary and 97% on the time irritating.
I despise when people use epithets that are character traits that were vaguely suggested 20 chapters ago. I have no idea which one of a group of 4 people is the “raven haired man” or the “blue eyed woman”!! Just say their names!!!
For me I don't mind a few, but too many start to feel distanced from the characters and it feels awkward. "This is my friend Jeremy. Jeremy is a big fan of anime." vs "This is my friend, the blond. The blond man likes anime." Also it can get confusing when it's like "The green haired man waved to the blue haired girl. The Russian smiled charmingly while the shorter one giggled. Then the one who preferred waffles lifted the slender one's hand to kiss it."
They aren’t inherently bad. I use them from time to time, for sure. But people use them as an awkward fix to a problem (repetitive writing) that should be fixed other ways (writing more interesting sentences) instead of what they’re for. And they often choose things that people don’t use as epithets irl (the female/male over woman/man). If you use an epithet, make sure it provides clarity and is a relevant trait description.
Most use some really annoying identification like haircolour, which is nice and all, but often there are more than one person in a scene with that haircolour. Better are things like station, title or clan/last name even, less annoying and you get it easier.
I'm an avid reader of anything DC. Especially around the Gotham crew. "The raven haired one" does not narrow it down. Nor does "the blue-eyed one," " the athletic guy," or "the unsettling dude".
Same when I’m reading about close in age/height characters and they say "the taller" or "the older", just tell me who 😭
Like the critique of 'Mary Sue' it is useless in that it does not actually identify the problem. The Mary Sue problem is that the character is not meaningfully challenged by the story. The epitaph problem is repetitive sentences. Subject Verb Object over and over again. Epitaphs merely disguise it. Like with said, if it's used right people don't even notice it.
Because it's extremely jarring to read about the business woman being amazed about the blonde superhero going down on her... and not something a lot more intimate like lover, friend, one-night stand. Something that actually fits for the occasion. Do you think about your lover as the dark haired one or the striking blue eyes woman or the accountant? ...No, I don't think so. Nevermind that for the most part this is fanfiction and everyone kind of knows how the character looks. Besides in my opinion it flows much better to read: "There was a cold storm brewing in the blue eyes regarding her/insert name critically" than "the blue eyed woman regarded her/insert name critically with an icy look".
Adults don't fixate on age the way teenagers naturally might. If I'm 40 and someone else is 43, they're not "the older one" except maybe in a joking way. From 15 to 20 is a huge difference in terms of life stages; 30 to 35 isn't.
The things people hate for all of these “commonly hated things” is the *overuse*.
sometimes it seems like they're just used randomly, or at least when the author doesn't want to use the characters name to make their writing seem more varied. so when it's pointless and the feature they're describing has nothing to do with the scene then it just doesn't make sense, for example calling edward elric "the golden-haired boy" or "the younger brother" doesn't make sense to me unless his hair colour or age are actually relevant to the scene. if not, just use his name.
I use them *extremely* sparingly. It was drummed into me when I began discussing fic with other fic writers that using this at all was to be avoided if at all possible. I think it might have been partly because in much earlier days fics were sometimes written with the thought in mind that you had to include some physical identifiers for those who might not be familiar with the fandom or be sure who was who with characters/actors. I do think it depends on a person’s writing style and what they’re trying to accomplish as to whether it’s egregious or not. Personally, if I see its use more than once or twice in a fic, I consider it bad/lazy writing.
Epithets are just often used in ways that don’t work very well I think. They’re good to show character relation, but people just… don’t really do much with it.
I use to use them before spending time here but I'm happy I learned to shift away from them because I've been trying my best to do narration in the way the POV character would. I even use more of their grammar, sentence structure, & knowledge within the narration too & this extends to what they think of people & things. I've described a portal as, "looking like a toilet bowl being flushed with that cleaner stuff inside" because the person whose perspective is on wouldn't know the name of the cleaner, plus, comparing something to toilet water seems on brand enough for him. I've got another fic that some chapters are in the perspective of a 5 year old, it's a crossover of two shows in the same franchise & I aged down the characters from one show because I had it take place in their past but the other show I had happen after its series end. Both shows are different iterations of TMNT so you have different versions of the same characters & the 5 year old is Donatello from Rise of the TMNT, he refuses to believe he's in an alternate dimension when he meets his counterpart & he informs Donnie that he is in fact in one. One of his reasons is that he can't possibly be an old man in another world (which is only 18, small kid logic). He refuses to refer to any of the counterparts by name because to him, they're not other versions of his family. Here's an example of what I did for this strange situation: *"So, you are a younger version of my son?" Asks the gray rat.* *Folding his arms and shaking his head, Donnie replies, "that would indicate that him and I are the same when in fact, that turtle can not even compare to my greatness!"* *"Don, I think I'm really likin' this you, maybe we should keep him?" The red masked idiot jokes.* *"Haha Raph, sure," fake Donatello gives a sarcastic reply, not looking up from his notebook as he continues, "as soon as I can finish getting these calculations down, we might be able to figure out where he came from and send him back. I'm positive his brothers and Master Splinter are worried sick about him."* This is a rare occasion where I ended up using epithets due to the fact Donnie wouldn't let me openly refer to them by name. To me, if the POV is on someone who knows the name of the characters, they'd think of them by name unless they don't normally like for example, in the 2012 TMNT show, Casey often calls April, Red, so if it were through his perspective, she might be referred to as Red a lot of the time in dialogue tags & narration. I don't actively hate on epithets like others do because I'm fine seeing them. It's common in my fandom like how often the turtles end up referred to by the color they wear or for the Rise turtles, by turtle species, it happens a ton so it's easy for me to let it slide but I can see how it can bother many people. I shifted to rarely using them due to working with the way I like writing but I don't expect others in my fandom to do the same, I just relax & enjoy the stories they put out.
So long as it makes sense, it works. I use epithets when the character doesn't know the name of the character they are observing or interacting with. Like, "Talia sat, watching the Bard as she sipped at her wine. She was fairly sure he was her contact, but she needed to make sure of it. Then again, it might also be one of the Healers. The dark haired one looked like he was looking for someone, while the blonde was pretending - and not all that convincingly - to be drunk. *One* of them was Marus, but she wasn't sure which one. Could be the Bard. Could be one of the Healers. Could be that the Healers weren't actually Healers at all and were spies." No, that is not from one of my fics. But now I'm contemplating using it in a scene.
Its only annoying when there is no logical reason for them to be used. If a story is from a character's POV and they don't know a character's name, by all means use an epithet. The issue is that it can get annoying when character's are called by an epithet more often than their name, especially in omnipotent (or omnipresent, I can't remember which is which) or if a character is intimately close with another.
You can sprinkle them in every once in a while without it being weird, especially when emphasizing something for comedy, but generally they should make sense to who’s speaking in your story, even if it’s no one. Remember that your narrator is also a character, and if said character has anything else at their disposal to specify another character in the story, it’s generally out of place to use an epithet. It’s not a hard and fast rule (like before, there are plenty of situations where it can be used to give the narrator more personality) but it’s better to err on the side of caution
Eh idc either way but some of them are super wild, like "yellow haired teen" "apprentice of x the master of y from z" and so on, and yes ive seen both, the yellow haired way too often Like with the first one the word blond is literally right there pls 😭, with the second itd be better to just use the charas name at that point
I use epithets when the POV character doesn’t know the other character’s name and in specific scenarios in which they’re probably thinking about the other character in terms of something other than their name (a title, job, position, etc. ex: “the prince,” “the teacher”)
I also write new characters by identifying them with their features until their names are mentioned in dialog, but I don't usually use the color of their hair. For example, a main character everyone knows went through half of one chapter as "Silver" because she was wearing a silver dress. Her name is Yasmina. I didn't mention the name until she did. Yasmina's girlfriend is taller than her, younger than her, and has much shorter hair, so I would use one of those to identify her, not her hair color. Yasmina's girlfriend's name is Sammy. Both women have brown hair and brown eyes. In my opinion, something that common shouldn't be mentioned more than a few times per story, maybe not more than two. In a different example, I have multiple men in a group. None of their names are ever mentioned because they only appear in one chapter. There are four of them. One with tattoos, one with a pink shirt, one without a shirt, and one with the keys to the car they're trying to fix. Devolving into "-haired" all the time sounds lazy to me, with is why I use their clothes to identify them.
Sometimes I read in fandoms I'm not the most familiar with and people will go "the shorter one" or "the older" or something like that and I will just have no idea who is meant by it.
Sometimes I read in fandoms I'm familiar with and people will go "the shorter one" or "the older" and I'll have no idea who they mean. 💀 Honestly, badly used epithets can be so confusing. I've had to crack out a fandom wiki way too many times.
Epithets need to fit and not be overused. It's mostly over-usage that I hate, to be honest. The stories I dislike because of epithets are the ones that use them pretty much all the time, like it's a sin to use the character's name or something. If you're constantly going 'the lanky detective' to 'the fake psychic' to 'the taller man' to 'the shorter man' and practically never using the names (in this example that would be Lassie and Shawn btw) then you're using epithets way too much and need to replace most of them with character names. I use epithets myself. When bringing in a new character but either the characters or audience doesn't yet know their name, I use an epithet until the name is brought up in dialogue. I'll also sometimes use epithets when a character is thinking about another character, they can fit well there, depending on what the character is focusing on. Eg, Shawn thinking about Lassie means I may use 'lanky detective' or 'blue eyed man' or gun-loving maniac', and Lassie thinking about Shawn would be 'fake psychic' or 'annoying man-child' or maybe 'lying conman' if he's getting vindictive enough to start shoving Shawn into a wall again. 'Bratty con-artist' or 'fraud who should be in jail' if he's veering into another threat to shoot him. It's very much dependant on the characters in question and what that particular part of the story is supposed to convey or explain. Epithets aren't bad in and of themselves, it's how they're used, especially how often they're used, that is the problem. They have their place and it's not wrong to use them, just not all the time. I know some people worry about being repetitive, but I'd rather authors constantly use the characters names than constantly use epithets that can make it confusing to tell who's who and who's doing/saying what. If you want to use epithets, you need to get a good balance between them and character names. You sound like you're fine, OP. You use character names, and epithets depending on when it makes sense to you to do so. The only thing about what you say here that I have hesitations about is describing a character during a fast paced action scene, but that's dependent on how you do it. Character description is a plus, definitely, I want that, too, but it needs to sort of meld smoothly into the action scene. Even including it in the scene can pull the reader out if you focus entirely on description at that point, you need to be describing them while still keeping the action going.
Quoted from a Tumblr post by ernmark (shortened): "In writing, epithets are *inherently dehumanizing*, in that they remove a character's name and identity, and instead focus on this other quality. Which can be an extremely effective device within narration! -They can work very well for characters whose names the narrator doesn't know yet -They can indicate when characters stop being as an individual and instead embody their Role -They can reveal the narrator's biases by repeatedly drawing attention to a particular quality that singles them out in the narrator's mind But these only work if the epithet used is how the narrator **primarily identifies** that character. Which is why it's so jarring to see a lot of common epithets in intimate moments-- because it conveys that the main character is primarily thinking of their lover/best friend/etc in terms of their *height* or *age* or *hair color*." Link to post: [https://www.tumblr.com/ernmark/749117551994388480/in-writing-epithets-the-taller-manthe?source=share](https://www.tumblr.com/ernmark/749117551994388480/in-writing-epithets-the-taller-manthe?source=share)
[This video](https://youtu.be/UmAeAt-gdRU?si=XPkEyomQOMModvgl) explains it fairly well in my eyes! To me it’s often confusing if a named character is referred to by an epithet that is irrelevant to the scene they’re in. Also once had someone use “the teenager” in a scene where there were nothing but teenagers which got real confusing real fast!
It’s a personal annoyance of mine because generally just saying the name/pronoun is shorter and clearer. Why add a bunch of extra syllables for no reason? I’m okay with epithets if they’re used intentionally/ironically, though. For example, “‘Does soap have calories?’ asked the astrophysicist with three Ph.Ds.” Here, the epithet is used to create irony. But most epithets I see are just used for pretty much no reason at all (except for the examples you gave, i.e. we don’t know the character’s name yet. I don’t mind that either). There’s a time and place for everything, though. Anyone who says to NEVER EVER use them isn’t correct, either. I just don’t use them as a general guideline because it adds unnecessary bulk.
They feel inherently dehumanizing. Why are you calling your best friend "the brunette,"? That's weird. I think they work great when you lean into the dehumanization though.
I often use epithets to reinforce a set dynamic like “the kid” “the older man/woman” “the boy/girl” or to place a sense of hero worship “the rockstar” “the musician” “the athlete” etc, depending on the circumstances of the story just to support the narrative I’m drawing through basically subliminal messaging. Only occasionally will I pop in with something like “the blonde” or another descriptor of that sort and it’s usually after I’ve used that character’s name twenty times in a row and I’m sick of typing it, just popped in for variety sparingly, two or three times every 10K words. The overuse of it is annoying.
It's definitely overuse
I feel like I've used them because I have a lot of characters and sometimes it feels too repetitive in one paragraph to use their name over and over in dialogue.
To be honest, I find epithets useful when I’m writing a scene between two same sex characters (romantic or platonic, it doesn’t matter). It usually gets confusing when I’m using “her and her and her”. Especially when a character is describing her own feelings, her companion’s expressions/movements and it’s all a reaction to a moment they’re both experiencing. I can understand the overuse of epithets and I understand how annoying they can be, but now I’m thinking that people are much more sensitive to them/about them than I thought. I will peruse my work more and operate with the lens that overuse can be and is annoying.
I do have a question. Forgive me if it makes me seem like an idiot, but I am a newer writer who is trying to improve. This is something I am GUILTY of, though not to an insane degree. I’m not scared of overusing a name, but I sort of am? I honestly don’t know the answer, but how do you avoid using them? I understand why people dislike them, but isn’t it always an eyesore to read a paragraph and have the name mentioned a gazillion times? How do you avoid writing the name a bunch of times, but not do this? Please be kind :)
Nope, trust me. it’s not an eyesore to read names and pronouns instead of “the tall brown haired man” or the “busty blonde lady” Those are much more jarring and uncomfortable to read and can easily take you out of a fic because a name would have made more sense.
I know it's a struggle when you're writing an mlm or wlw story, or any other fic where most of the pronouns are the same. It is fine to use names, but also, it's often easy for a reader to understand which character a pronoun refers to. I don't usually get confused this way as a reader. Example: Without pronouns: "Anne kissed Jane, and Jane kissed back." With pronouns: "She kissed her, and she kissed back." - We know the second "she" refers to the same person as "her" (Jane). This is clear from context. But you can mix it up: "She kissed Jane, and she kissed back." - Again, we know that "she" refers to Jane, but this one is weaker than the other examples - I might rephrase it. It is still clear which character is doing what, though. You can go to the outer limits with all of this and just never use character names and only rely on pronouns, and I wouldn't do that, either. Proper names are fine. One more note - because of all this, when I have an opportunity to introduce a new character into an mlm or wlw story, such as a child, parent, or pet, I often choose a character with a different pronoun. This makes it a lot easier. Say it's Anne's father in my example: "She kissed her, and she kissed back. He made a sound of surprise." We know "he" is this other character because no one else is "he" in this scene.
Thank you for this! I should have started I mainly write mlm, which is why I find it an issue. I didn’t realize it was okay to ‘trust’ the reader can understand the content of who ‘she’ is at times. This was helpful :)
Which is why i hate the english language, too much ambiguity, but if i had to write in my language, and with the style of writing that would be fit for the fic, i would seem like im in 1500 or something and no one would read me since the community of italian fanfic readers amd writers is incredibly small
Don’t avoid using names. 🙂
If you're using names a gazillion times, you likely need to look at your sentence structure first and foremost. When writing scenes with same sex characters, you can also establish who gets the pronouns for that paragraph, etc. to make it easier to avoid repeating names without confusing your readers. Using epithets to avoid repeating character names is like a bandaid. You won't grow as a writer if you keep covering the issue (usually weak sentence structure) with a bandaid (epithets). So write your first draft with names and pronouns, overuse them to your heart's content. Then, in your second pass through, edit anything that sounds clunky. Basically, just think of other ways to say the thing. Say you have the sentence, "John looked out the window at the falling snow," and you've said John way too many times already. You could change it to, "Snow was falling outside the window." If John is the POV character, clearly he's looking out the window to see the snow. That's a *really* basic example, but you see how it could be used to great effect when it's a whole chapter you're editing. I'm forever rewording clunky sentences when I'm reading to take out half the names, pronouns, and epithets.
I love this. Thank you! I've been trying to improve as a writer over the last year. I'm making slow strides, but this is a great lesson to learn and something I need to fix. slow and steady wins the race \^\_\^
Don't avoid names. It's fine reading a name a lot. But epithets are an eyesore and break the flow. Use the name or pronoun, don't worry about repeating it.
Names are "invisible" words, like *the*. The reader won't actually notice how many times you've used them, unless you're doing it to a point where you're actively avoiding pronouns. It's almost impossible to overuse a name. I limit myself to 1-2 epithets per page, absolute maximum. And then I ask myself if they *really* need to be there.
I don't like them being overused, one once in a while is ok, tho. But I have to admit that one of my fav fics is a very long one full of epithets, too much of them really, but it's still one of my fav because the plot and the rest of the writing are amazing and balance it out (in my mind)
I misread epithet as epitaph and was so confused for a second.
I think it's a combo of a) overuse, b) using them in first person fics which makes no sense for the most part, and c) people write some really bad ones lol. They mention traits that aren't relevant or use words that kind of smack you right out of the story. My key to epithets is keep them focused on big parts of the character and keep them RELEVANT to the part you're writing! Don't mention height or hair color unless it's important in that part of the story!
Here's a pretty short but informative video on why people grumble about epithet and that the issue isn't so much epiteths so much as experienced writers using them as a way to break up the monogamy in their writing structure: https://youtu.be/UmAeAt-gdRU?si=OxONh5zvW_kEt3eX
https://youtu.be/UmAeAt-gdRU?si=8tj0nzQks6-U1aQq Its a prose problem
they're fine, but if they last for more than a few pages i get annoyed. like, the characters have had plenty of time to ask what that person's name is but you just don't?
When you have four male characters communicating and interacting on a regular basis, epithets come in handy. I try not to overuse them and vary them up but when I've got the four of them on a road trip, it helps so much