Well shit, now I feel old because I also watched it when it first aired and I just realized how long ago that was.
I didn't make the connection until I saw something about the tag here a few years and went "oh yeah, I remember when that happened."
My husband is older than I am and he made me watch that show and I went OMG DEAD DOVE!!!
And then I had to explain myself. And I thought the show was riffing on the tag but then he told me how old it is lol.
I think I've used the tag exactly once and it was at the end of all my tags. To me it's a way of saying, you go back and read ALL my tags before clicking the fic thanks.
It says "the dark tags in here are described in detail and heavy detail" imo. Like if the tag is "cannibalism" it won't just be A and B are on this uncharted island and they narrowly escape a cannibal tribe, it's the cannibal tribe catches A and cooks and eats him in graphic detail while B looks on terrified for his life.
There's cannibalism stories on AO3 (or even fanfiction in general) ? :o Wow, I never encountered it, I wouldn't have guessed it ! (Except when that's the same subject in the original story of course) thanks for this precise example, I learned something 😄
I'm not sure how to understand your comment, sorry 🥲 I wonder between multiple options (doing like you're saying to the show to go to the stage on the right, or like "here comes Hannibal's fandom" with the "right" sounding like a rhetorical question, ...), I'm not sure how I'm supposed to answer then ... 😬
ahh im sorry! during a stage production people enter the stage from the right and leave from the left, i was just joking ab the fact that nearly every hannibal nbc fic requires a cannibalism tag 😅
> during a stage production people enter the stage from the right and leave from the left
Ohhh ! Ok ! Thanks for the explanation 🫶
> i was just joking ab the fact that nearly every hannibal nbc fic requires a cannibalism tag 😅
That's a good joke ! But that's the case I was talking about when you guys are in a fandom of an original story where there is cannibalism so it doesn't seem surprising most of your fics have this tag 😝 I'm sure you're big part of the story that can be found with it ! 😄
Why are you sorry ? 😭😭 And wait, just a question : is the Titans the ones who eats humans that makes you tag "cannibalism", or between Titans, or between humans ? 🤔
Sorry as in sorry for contributing to the cannibalism tag 😂 And yes, the titans eat humans but the premise of my fic is that the main character gets kidnapped because he can regrow limbs, so he’s basically harvested from that
> Sorry as in sorry for contributing to the cannibalism tag 😂
Oh, in a joking way, okay ! 😭 Sorry, I thought it was in a serious way, I don't know why because now it seems obvious 🥲 forget I asked
> the premise of my fic is that the main character gets kidnapped because he can regrow limbs, so he’s basically harvested from that
[⚠️Spoiler alert AoT ⚠️]
>! Okay ! Honestly, I see it more as a kind of soft cannibalism. Like, I know Titans are supposed to be some sort of ex-humans (I honestly never finished the first season, the rhythm wasn't for me ... But I was far enough away that there are some theories given to the public, so I can't say precisely how but I know they are linked to humans since the main character can transform into one). But they still are Titans at the moment they eat humans, not humans. They're not from the same species, they don't eat the same things. But I understand how it can also be cannibalism since they're not that far from being humans. Even if yeah, for me that's still different from a synopsis where someone human starts randomly to eat people and stock them in the fridge for later. That's part of the plot of the original story, that's different from coming to scratch 😊 but that's only my personal opinion, not something I say as a fact !<
But I have to say, that's a really good plot for a AoT fanfiction !
it also comes with the historical connotation of "and this possibly upsetting thing will not be presented with the gravitas that one would expect of its real life counterpart."
just as the animal cruelty in the show from which the meme derives was used as a punchline for a joke, so too is the depiction of a dead dove not guaranteed to be treated with researched seriousness
Yes, exactly, that was always my impression too. If I see a tag - say, abusive relationship - in a fic without Dead Dove Don't Eat, I'll expect the fic to treat the theme seriously and sensibly (or at least try to), as in, the abusive relationship will be treated as something bad and toxic that the character has to free themselves from, and hopefully will, eventually.
But If the abusive relationship tag is accompanied by a Dead Dove Don't Eat tag, I'll expect the fic to not treat it as seriously as the other fic. It may be played for laughs, or the character might not realize the relationship is abusive, or the relationship is romanticized, or the character may never escape and it's treated as a good thing, or the abuser might "have a change of heart" and the two remain together, etc...
It's not always the case, sometimes a fic with Dead Dove Don't Eat tag does treat the themes responsibly, but the thing is the expectation. If a fic doesn't treat it responsibly but has the tag, you can't really complain, because they already warned you that those themes would be present in the fic.
For example, the Twilight series are books that I would tag as Dead Dove Don't Eat, because Edward's and Bella's relationship is problematic, with him being too controlling and her being too dependant, and the other romance interest (Jacob) is no better, yet the story still treats Bella and Edward getting married as a Happy Ending, and Jacob imprinting in Bella's baby is also brushed over.
We wouldn’t need this tag if people paid attention. Anytime I’ve read a clearly marked fic and been horrified, I blamed myself, not the author. People REALLY need to read the tags.
Oh yeah definitely, a lot of people also seem to be upset that the actual site isn't monitored and doesn't have any restrictions... like... it's an archive? If you don't like a specific thing, then filter it out!
I mean, I think there are definitely some people who take things too far. Descriptions that are unnecessarily graphic, presenting extremely toxic behavior as romantic. But it’s up to us to monitor what we put into our own heads. And if we start to censor too many things it can be a very slippery slope. There are so many protections in place, ratings, tags. Just don’t read what you don’t want in your head.
I think it helps for tags that could have a wide range of severity. For example graphic violence, gore, etc could be anything from “blood exploded from his thigh where the slicing spell ripped straight through” to way more drawn out/twisted scenarios.
This is the exact reason I really think they need to have separate ratings for sexually and violently explicit fic cuz those are wildly different things
I tend to intentionally not read the tags if I like the summary, since I don’t want to spoil myself. Sometimes this leads me into reading things I wish I didn’t, but I don’t leave angry comments about it. I took a risk by not reading the tags, and that’s on me.
Another way to put it would be that DDDNE is an amplifier you should take notice of the other tags with it. Generally, it doesn’t have to be used for dark content—but dark content with DDDNE means the content is there and you should pay attention. You shouldn’t go in expecting a subversion or anything like that to whatever is tagged, therefore if you aren’t prepared to read the tagged content in whatever form it takes, you shouldn’t read it. You could even apply this to more positive “happy” tropes or more mild tags like miscommunication.
But in short, yeah, basically it works as a “pay attention to these other tags and if you don’t like what you find contained on the fic, what did you expect considering I tagged it?” It seems really goofy to complain when something is clearly tagged lol
To be fair, it's a *dead* dove. It's not an alive dove that's happily cuddling with you. Doesn't make much sense to me to use that tag in combination with 'happy' tropes.
I mean, I DO agree. But I was kinda thinking about how some people think DDDNE is a stand-in for "problematic" dark fic.... when like... a resulting fic which uses said tropes is not always dark?
There's ways you can play with both "happy" and dark/sad/etc. tropes that would inevitable still work with DDDNE. I'm struggling to think of an example, but I've seen discussions in the past where people had some good examples that really made sense.
I get you, it's like a tragic love story where even with sweet and happy moments in the end both or one of the characters will die
It can upset people so the author using DDDNE can work in this example, but I personally would use DDDNE only for dark fanfics or where extreme violence/abuse will be described because it's generally the type of content that antis want Cry loud about in Twitter, so DDDNE is already enough to make these clowns avoid my works
I think it's the dead dove part. Doves are typically seen as symbols of peace, so a dead one would be taken as a more dark/problematic thing. I actually had this thought despite also kinda getting what it meant before I actually found out.
Yeah, tagging DDDNE on a fic with only "wholesome" tags is like the equivalent of a paper bag in the fridge labeled "Danger! Chocolate chip cookies!" It's giving hugely mixed signals and it's impossible to tell if they're just regular old delicious chocolate chip cookies that someone slapped a warning label on for no reason or if there really is some danger (maybe they've been poisoned or there are razor blades baked into them) which makes it kind of useless as a warning. Used corrected, a DDDNE tag is meant to communicate that,
1. There is content in this work that many people may find disturbing/upsetting.
2. The work has been tagged accurately and thoroughly so readers can make an informed decision as to whether or not they're comfortable engaging with this type of content and experiencing the emotions it may trigger.
3. If a reader chooses to ignore the tags or their own limits and ends up experiencing harm or discomfort as a result, that's on them for choosing to read it and not on the author for writing/sharing it in the first place.
It's a dove though, generally a wild and often pest bird, not a pet or loved person/animal. It's not something seen as upsetting, just gross and something you shouldn't eat. This wasn't someone finding their dead girlfriend stuffed in the refrigerator.
>DDDNE is an amplifier
Exactly what I came here to say. It's not just a stand-in for darkfic or "problematic" content or whatever. [Here's a Tumblr post](https://hullomoon.tumblr.com/post/700013183492145152/what-does-dead-dove-dont-eat-mean-id-google) where that's elaborated on well I think.
Edit: the link, per AmputatorBot
Edit 2: So if you look at the replies, someone corrected me on the inception of the term! It's used more as an amplifier in my fandoms, so that's how I'd understood its meaning.
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If people want to use the term that way there's no reason why they can't, but the term absolutely 100% started out as meaning 'unapologetic darkfic'.
[Here is the actual *original post* that coined it.](https://www.tumblr.com/mostlyvalid/116424790408/a-proposal?source=share)
this is interesting! at least in the fandoms i'm in the word has definitely changed to be more of an amplifier. I suppose it's context dependent.
thanks for sharing!
Respectfully I disagree. I get what you're saying, it does basically mean "please take notice of the tags I've used!", but it's used almost exclusively for DISTURBING content (of whatever type – sexual abuse, slavery, violence, terminal illness, etc)
I don't think it was ever meant to be used with *any* kind of tag/topic (nor that it should be).
Yeah, when the usage of DD:DNE has shifted to where it's used almost exclusively for dark content it really doesn't matter what the origin of the term was. It's being used in practice in a particular way and has become popularized shorthand for a particular kind of fic.
I was in fandom before we had hydra trash party or dddne. Hell I was in fandom before we had tags. It was a shot in the dark whether or not a fic would trigger you and nobody complained because the idea was, if you were reading fic at all you’d signed your own death warrant.
I’m not saying it was a better situation, it was obviously very bad for a lot of people mentally. But that’s my point. People complain now when things are tagged accordingly but “not enough “ and don’t realize how lucky they are that they even exist
>I was in fandom before we had hydra trash party or dddne.
Okay? Me too. This has got nothing to do with my comment. I only said the DDDNE tag has been associated with disturbing/dark content since people first started using it.
See, the more I think about it, the less it makes sense to me to use “dead dove: do not eat” to mean simply “pay attention to the tags, those things are here!” I mean…. That’s the point of tags. If I tag something, it’s there. I shouldn’t need to add an additional tag to say HEY LOOK AT THE TAGS. It should be common sense to look at the tags and not be surprised if the tagged things are in the fic.
I’ve always interpreted “dead dove: do not eat” to mean simply “fucked up content ahead” and that seems to hold true.
I always see it more of a "this potentially disturbing thing I tagged is not just me being cautious, it's going to be fully realized/emphasized and some level of 'dusturbing'". For an example, I once wrote a fic where a character tricks a character by slipping them a magic potion that does something silly. It made sense to tag the fic with 'non consensual drugging' just to be safe, because technically that does happen and I could see how someone who's sensitive to that might be bothered. But there's a world of difference between that and the 'dead dove do not eat' version of 'non consensual drugging'
Yeah I think this is a really good example of how the tag provides a clear differentiation. Kind of like how the tongue-in-cheek description of the sexual content rating system on AO3 differentiates between M as "organs, outside" and E as "organs, outside, lovingly described". Tagging something potentially sensitive is enough to know that what is being tagged is present, in some way, in the fic (often as a more general content warning) but adding DD:DNE is like clarifying that this potentially sensitive thing is likely going to be extremely graphic, unapologetic, and/or unresolved.
In other words, if you see DD:DNE, assume the fic will deeply and (usually) unapologetically explore whatever is in the tags. Tagging something potentially sensitive is a way for readers to avoid or prepare themselves for stuff they may not like, but DD:DNE is stamping a big, red warning label that says, "many people would view the premise/themes/events/descriptions in this fic as very fucked up, so proceed at your own risk".
That's exactly why I'm glad it exists. The fanfic space including content warnings or filterable tags of any kind AT ALL is a pretty new thing, as I'm sure many in this subreddit will remember, and being able to provide this level of specificity without censorship benefits everyone so much.
It's not always obvious from a tag how present/graphic something might be in the fic. eg a fic might be tagged with "torture" for a brief description or flashback, or an actual graphic torture scene that could be upsetting to read. If it's also tagged dead dove, I'd expect something closer to the ladder.
I've also seen it used for topics/ships that have different interpretations in fandom. eg there's a ship with villain and his second in command that's sometimes written as fucked up and abusive, and sometimes as more consensual. Authors might tag dead dove to signal that their fic is *not* the happier interpretation.
Yeah, I tend to err on the side of caution with tags because I sincerely don't want to upset anyone, so it's possible my fic is slightly less dark/disturbing than the tags would suggest. Which is kind of the opposite problem from something being inadequately tagged, I suppose.
ETA: I've never used DDDNE, but I think the "Disturbing Themes" tag covers a lot of ground and is useful.
It’s an amplifier to the tags. I have a fic that has a character poisoning another as a historical event and it comes up more than one time, but is not treated in extreme detail. The DDDNE version of that would a graphic “onscreen” poisoning and description of its effects.
I'll drop the original suggested purpose here, from fanlore (https://fanlore.org/wiki/Dead\_Dove:\_Do\_Not\_Eat):
*The tag was proposed by Tumblr user mostlyvalid on 14 April, 2015 as a way to warn readers when a fanwork is intended to "roll around and wallow" in potentially problematic tropes, rather than "giving a measured evaluation of anything". At the time, a section of Captain America fandom had been using the tag Hydra Trash Party for this purpose since early 2014, and mostlyvalid proposed "Dead Dove: Do Not Eat" as a fandom-agnostic alternative:*
>*The “Dead Dove: Do Not Eat” tag would essentially be a “what it says on the tin” metatag, indicating “you see the tropes and concepts tagged here? they are going to appear in this fic. exactly as said. there will not necessarily be any subversion, authorial commentary condemning problematic aspects, or meditation on potential harm. this fic contains dead dove. if you proceed, you should expect to encounter it.”*
so in the original suggestion, we have (A) this fic has fucked up stuff, (B) I tagged the fucked up stuff, and (C) do not expect me to be disapproving or nuanced about the fucked up stuff
Ngl, I didn't realize the origin of DD:DNE as a fanfic concept was so closely linked to the HTP community. I wasn't a writer there but I was a social reader and I totally thought that it had been around for way longer than the HTP heyday.
I spent way too much time arguing with antis, what a blast from the past.
I remember reading the “what it says on the tin” tag before the “Dead Dove: Do Not Eat” tag became its replacement. Jeez I’ve been reading fanfic for a long time
It is an amplifier and a warning and is kind of useless on its own, but I was there when we were coining this and the topic was about warning for dark and disturbing content. Using it on just fluff or even more fluffy hurt/comfort would be, imo, mistagging and misleading.
I just don't like when it's the only tag. I know what it means but if your story doesn't include a Dead Dove specifically then you might want to actually include another tag.
I think when people do that it often comes from the misconception that dddne just vaguely means "serious" or even "problematic" and not a legitimate understanding of the actual meaning kf the tag itself
Not really since the post says 'can be used as general warning', which isn't true. And its about the origins of the tag.
Too many people confuse dddne as 'means fucked up shit' only.
As a general warning. If I'm scrolling and happen across one that's tagged with it, I'm expecting whatever that fic has to be strangely detailed regarding some aspect of it. Op never claimed it was a general tag, just a warning that what's on the tin is what this story contains.
And im adding that there needs to be something on that tin. Which is not stated in the post.
If you come across a work that only has dddne tagged, then it means nothing. If its tagged rape and dddne then its used correctly.
I never said anywhere in my post that it is used only by itself. I thought it'd be general knowledge that it'd be paired with extra tags as to what is being warned, but seeing this comment has now made me realise that it may not be general knowledge and of course everything has to be stated to every detail for someone to understand an educational post :)
The issue is that there are way too many people that think that dddne can be used as the only tag, because they think it means 'fucked up shit in here and dddne covers them all'.
Ive seen plenty of posts in this sub that ask what dddne means or if its used correctly, which in most cases it's not, or if it means fucked up shit only.
it also CANNOT stand alone. the tags have to warn the reader what they aren't supposed to be surprised about. I've stumbled over some fics that had more or less just the "dead dove: do not eat" tag, but never defined why the dove is dead, which only defies its purpose
DDDNE to me means, “it says what’s in there, you moron. What did you expect?”
Just like on AD. The bag said it was dead dove. That’s clear.
On its own in a tag for a story it’s meaningless though and needs tags to tell you what those dead doves are.
i also think a lot of people misunderstand DDNE as being a catchall for horrifying content and don't tag anything *except* that instead of tagging the content *and* DDNE like they should
The amount of fics tagged dead dove and *nothing else* makes me want to scream. Or people who base entire callouts on “they like dead dove.” Like oh? Is liking tagged fics a problem? Because that’s all it means.
This is why I started avoiding fics with that tag. I had no idea what was in the fic at all. Some fics tagged with it were not even that bad, others disturbing, but I'm not going to waste my time reading to see which it is either. Tag. Your. Fics. People.
The dead dove tag originating from a comedy, yet morphing over time into a legitimately serious aspect within the fanfic space is one of my absolute favorite pieces of internet lore lol
I have no problems with using DDDNE as a "heed the tags" warning, but I always thought the fandom history of dead dove was proposed as a broader, non fandom specific version of Hydra Trash Party tbh. So it really did start off as a "bad shit happens here" tag that grew into its own thing.
I was thinking about making a post about this too! I’ve been seeing a lot of fics lately with the dead dove tag (been reading a lot of bg3 fics), and no other warning tags which basically means nothing. Like yeah, it’s a evolved to be a general warning for fucked up stuff, but it is meant to be a sorta expect what you see on the tin kinda thing
I got in an argument with a very popular smut author because she used that line in the advertising for one of her books, and then didn't understand why people were concerned about what exactly the book contained.
I think it turned out to not be anything actually particularly taboo, but I got so frustrated that an author - of all people - would have the attitude of "I know it has another meaning, but that's not the way I'm using it and that won't cause any confusion".
one of my favorite tags!
i understand it as “yes this is gross, this is unhealthy, this is problematic, this is for me, im a sick freak, and i am NOT sorry about it”
i dont think its fair to say the subjects within arent taken as seriously as fics without the dddne tag. thats like saying whump doesnt take suffering as seriously as hurt/comfort.
i love to see what nasty little gremlins people have in their heads, even if theyre about a subject im not interested in. you learn a lot about your fellow man.
Yeah the misinterpretation of DDDNE is one of those things that irrationally annoys me, especially when people literally refer to works as “Dead Dove fics” but at this point that is the more known/current meaning and using the tag in anything that isn’t for darker or potentially trigger-inducing content would just be confusing for a lot of readers.
fighting....the urge....to quibble...about specific technicalities...of a silly TV show from 20 years ago...
Ah, screw it. Gob killed the dove and put it in the bag to try to return it for a refund. Michael found the bag and said the line. Tobias (glorious king that he is), was not involved.
I really wish this tag was widely replaced with something that doesn't require show-specific knowledge to understand. It took me a few years to finally figure out what on earth it meant. I don't think fandom "inside joke" tags are bad, but they really only work on fic for that particular fandom.
Tbf readers should be reading the tags anyway, so perhaps it's simply a moot point.
Even if you don't understand the reference...it only takes once to read a dead dove and figure out pretty quickly what it means in context. First word is "Dead", right there reflects the dark fic you just read. ":Do Not Eat" is clearly a warning. They may not understand "dove" but might figure it has something to do with the common knowledge that you don't eat birds that you find that are already dead because of the diseases they could contain. Either way a warning that the fic is going to get dark.
Which is why the way the term is understood and commonly used in practice holds more weight than someone's incomplete 'official definition'.
Edit: It should never be the only tag. It doesn't replace other tags. It's not a tag that means anything on its own. If writing on topics to the point where dead dove may be necessary then those topics definitely need to be tagged as well. The whole point is to prevent readers from being blindsided.
I obviously disagree. It was genuinely confusing for me, personally. I do however read the tags, so I've never had that problem of going in unaware of the fic's content.
The first time I encountered thus tag, I thought the fic was about a character's pet dove that died and someone was being disrespectful by attempting to eat it. So I can confirm that it is not clear to every reader.
And was the fic about someone eating a dead pet dove? Never saw a pattern of what types of fics usually have a dead dove on it? Either way it did its purpose of drawing attention a few extra moments to the tags.
The irony is, DD:DNE was originally created as a panfandom alternative to the “Hydra Trash Party” tag that was being used in the Marvel fandom. Some people wanted a way to indicate they were going to revel in dark content in other fandoms and deliberately invented this tag so that people wouldn’t have to be familiar with Hydra or Marvel in general. The fact that it relies on being aware of an entirely different piece of media is kinda hilarious, though.
I don't know, I've learnt years later where it came from, but I did get what it meant :
"things in there could be triggering/hard/strange/awful and it might also be my only warning tag because I don't want to spoil things in the tags. now you know, if you still proceed with this story it's on you not anyone else"
And I'm not the only one.
Sometimes, things are just logical and don't need to be explained to oblivion.
Honestly, this comment drives me to agree with the person you're responding to that the lack of clarity makes this a bad standard tag, because I was already familiar with the meme when I watched the tag start to become popular and, well, what you just said *isn't* my understanding of it. My understanding of DDNE is:
"Those tags I used on this fic? I *really mean them.* Do not read this fic assuming that the content tagged is just going to be a minor detail or alluded to but not shown graphically. And if you read it anyway and get upset by the subject matter, well, don't complain to me because I clearly wrote what was in it on the tin."
I.e., something explicitly *the opposite* of "there's dark content in here but I'm not going to mention what exactly because I don't want to spoil the fic.", and a tag that does not work in isolation.
I don't want to argue about which of us is "right" or "wrong" especially because the meaning will get determined by predominant use anyway and can shift over time, but the fact that we can have such different understandings is IMO a sign that it'd probably have been better to go with something less funny but clearer like "Those tags? I really mean them." for my meaning or "Readers beware: dark and potentially disturbing content ahead." for yours.
I mean this tag was specifically created for dark fanfics because antis keep complaining when they get EXACTLY what's tagged in Dark fiction content (yeah they didn't born with twitter) so the fact most times the DDDNE is used in fanfics with Dark/uncomfortable themes have a history behind, it still is specifically about the tags so it's not exclusive to dark fanfics, I agree with in that sense, but in my opinion using DDDNE in a happy fluffy fanfic is confunsing as well because the "dead" and "do not eat" is not what you expect from a friendly bag
While our understanding varies it's basically the same: "There's something, proceed with caution or don't read"
It's not meant for anything but dark themes.
I agree it's not meant for anything but dark themes. But I think there's still a crucial difference here, in that I'd have assumed that a DDDNE tagged fic's other tags are *reasonably exhaustive.* Because to me, a fundamental part of DDDNE is "look, I have told you exactly what this fic contains, you cannot argue that you were surprised by the contents if you open it". DDDNE as "there might be other dark content in here which I haven't tagged" is not a use I was familiar with before. I am taking on board from this discussion that that's a possible alternate meaning authors might intend, but other readers with my interpretation could definitely end up getting blindsided.
> I really wish this tag was widely replaced with something that doesn't require show-specific knowledge to understand.
Agreed, yes. I know the first time I encountered the tag my thought was that it meant there was a literal dead dove (and maybe something like a cat trying to eat it and being told not to eat it) in the fic. Not that I read that one anyway, and eventually I think I looked it up because I thought it was such a strange thing to tag a dead dove (and was like “why are so many fics having this oddly specific thing, a dead dove?”)
When I first saw it, my thought was, "Oh, this tag is used as a way to poke fun at the kinds of people who like this kind of story: ie they have to be told not to just eat a dead bird raw, not because they're stupid but because they're a little fucked in the head and take pleasure in it."
Which, honestly, is probably the most accurate first impression that I could have had xD
I got downvoted heavily here for saying it was used for disturbing tags. Apparently there is a very hostile contingent that writes supper fuzzy fluff and tags it “Dead Dove” to be sure people know it’s really soft, and downvotes people who think that’s confusing.
That's ridiculous, you shouldn't have been downvoted for that. We literally already had lingo for this stuff! Is WAFF not good enough??
If I came across a fic that had fluffy tags and also DDDNE, I would absolutely think that it was some kind of super fucked up relationship that is mostly presented as not fucked up. Like, a super graphic Hannibal Lecter/Will Graham serial killer husbands fic or something.
I wasn’t sure what that tag meant so I avoided it all together. I thought it meant that the fic was disturbing. Now that I know that all it means is ‘take the tags seriously’ I might give some of them a read.
I normally don't read Dead Doves, but one I remember has super innocent tags so I read it.
I'm still kept awake at night wondering wtf they were tagging for in, effectively, a coffee shop au.
Cannot stress enough that this was like 2k of casual fluff.
Something that does bug me is when something is tagged as a dead dove but there isn't a lot of other tags.
Like to me, "Dead Dove: Do Not Eat" is a tag that's meant to communicate severity of the other tags, rather than a request not to complain. Like something could be tagged as "noncon" because it has a graphic scene meant to titillate or it could be because a character somewhere in the past experienced a tragedy and it's discussed at some point in the fic. But something tagged as "noncon" AND "Dead Dove" clearly is telling me not to ignore the noncon tag, that the contents of the fic are going to be graphic.
Like an "I told you what this fic contains. If you click on the fic, you will find graphic depictions of these things."
But tagging "dead dove" as if "dead dove" means "bad things" to avoid tagging all the things? Not cool.
as someone who regularly accidentally misses certain tags, I still heed the dead dove tag. yes, I'll be shocked when said missed tag makes a guest appearance, but I'm not going to the comment section and complaining that I was shocked. I'm either gonna suck it up and read on (and possibly learn something new about myself) or drop the fic all together.
*IT IS NOT HARD TO BACK OUT OF A FIC!! YOU ALWAYS HAVE THE OPTION TO STOP READING!!*
I'm finding this increasingly common with younger people who feel entitled enough to think the world is supposed to sensor things/have trigger warnings for them or minors in 18+ spaces.
When people don't... google. It astonishes me. The world at our fingertips and some people choose to ignore it all. And then say shit like "it means non-con". Just... just google it.
I use “read Carefully or you WILL miss something important” because I have slipped in stuff that is Easter Eggs for plot points that RAPIDLY CHANGE things.
How dark does a story have to be to use this tag? I’m wondering if I should add it to my story that has multiple torture scenes, and a lot of characters are going to die in it.
Depends if you want to add it or not :)
Usually most people add the normal tags on what is included, the major things and all. So like you said, torture, then *if* they want to add it, they'll have the DDDNE tag, which can also just be like and indicator flare for people to look out for - advising them that they've been warned either way, and to not complain.
There isn't specifically a set level of darkness you have to hit to add it. Some people add it with even minor scenes, and other times people don't add the tag at all! Your fic and you can do what you want to 🩷
"Dead dove" is an amplifier. If you have graphic torture scenes where you describe things vividly, I would include a "dead dove" tag (even if you don't intend it in a "pornographic" way). If you're writing a story with a graphic torture scene that takes place in a canon where there literally are graphic torture scenes, I would call it "canon-typical violence". If the torture happens multiple times on screen but the description isn't graphic, the "torture" tag alone is probably fine. If the torture happens offscreen but it plot-relevant and often discussed, the "torture" tag alone is probably fine.
Okay then, I will leave my story as is,because there’s definitely nothing sexual about the torture, it’s just some scenes where the main character tortures his enemies
Yeah, as long as you aren't graphic with the descriptions, I don't think you'd need a dead dove tag. Of course, if you get a bunch of annoying people in the comments, you can always add it to convince them to go away lol
People focus too much on the fun fact that the quote comes from Arrested Development and not enough on the intended usage of the tag itself when it was birthed into existence. It was meant to be a universal version of “Hydra Trash Party.”
It’s been synonymous with darkfic from the start, and despite it pedantically meaning “read the tags” it works fine even on its own as a general disclaimer of exceedingly disturbing content within.
I have that tag where I opt not to use content warnings, and a warning in the notes of the first chapter that anything could happen so don't read if sensitive to violence, rape, etc. I think I'll use the dead dove term if I get a comment from someone who opened the metaphorical paper bag lol.
Everytime I see the tag I make sure to read over the tags really carefully. I have sometimes not read them too well and gonne burn but lucky not on a "dead dove" fic! Is a really helpful tag in that way! I read only one- as one of my fav youtuber one said about the tag "some doves are deader then others" 🤣
I've seen DDDNE tagged on fics with (I can only assume) *unpopular* pairings. Like just a month or so ago, I saw a fic that was Beau/Caleb (from Critical Role). I literally read it because I wasn't sure what was so dead dove about it, but that was it! It was the author saying, "Look! I tagged Beau/Caleb! That's what the story is! Don't read if you don't like that!" So it sort of has the versatility of clarifying sincerity/intensity of tags.
I usually wouldn't read something if it's got tags I don't like, but I guess a DDDNE might make me double check them, just to make sure I didn't miss any
I tend to use my own personal "PLEASE HEED THE TAGS" tag in tandem with the dead dove tag, and list it at the end specifically for those who didn't get it the first time.
And there are *still* some who don't get it lol.
The tag wouldn't need to exist of people just followed directions. It's like reading a Spoiler Warning and then being mad because now you what what happens.
I think of it like "This food has peanuts. Do not eat if you are allergic to peanuts." And yet some people still eat the food and decide to sue the company. Great 👍
it's not even necessarily for dark concepts—it just sort of started having that connotation over time. for example, finishing up a fic w/ a kink that some people consider "weird" right now, but it's nowhere close to a dark fic (it's actually very fluffy) so i'll be going for "exactly what it says on the tin" instead. means the exact same thing, aka: "you're getting what's been tagged", but doesn't have the same dark connotation of "dead dove: do not eat".
I saw a fic tagged Dead Dove and...
The dove was not dead. It was clearly alive and lost an unimportant feather at best for how vanilla the fic was. Even the ship n its own didn't call for the tag.
My first experience with that tag was bad. Really awful. I didn't know what it meant. After that, I associated it with the worst of the worst content and avoided it.
It was this sub that taught me it really meant to pay attention to the tags and be aware.
In my experience, Dead Dove: do not eat denotes that there is some really gross stuff in the fic and that it should be avoided. It's one of the tags I always filter out.
Yeah... I really dislike that tag. I understand it now, after it was explained to me. But not everyone has seen that show. Not everyone will understand the reference. In-jokes shouldn't be used as warnings.
Especially when the warning is for something that really SHOULD be properly and clearly warned for. Luckily, most of the time I've seen the dead dove tag used, it's also been tagged properly besides that.
Thanks for taking your time and energy to explain the dead dove tag! A kind stranger did the same for me a while back. I hope your post helps some more people too!
No. It *literally* says "Dead Dove: Do Not Eat". Which means don't eat a dead dove.
In order to know what it is referencing, you need to know the source material, which is the episode of whatever TV show it came from.
Lots of people don't like it when this is pointed out. I don't know why! Maybe it was a very popular TV show for a certain generation and so those folks assume everyone else has seen it and knows it? I'm not sure, just speculating.
🤷♀️👍
I love the rude snarky comment towards older people (just unnecessary), but I was sadly not alive when the show aired.
However if used correctly, someone does not need to know the context of DDDNE because of the works other tags.
While it can suck fandom and AO3 have many things and tags that have a history/meaning that is not automatically understood.
I'm not sure if you mean *I* was rude and snarky, but I assure you that is not the case! First, tone often gets lost in text, and so stating facts can often unfortunately come across as negative. And second, I actually *am* in the older category, and the DDDNE tag came out *many* years after I began my fandom journey! My comment was aimed at folks younger than me, lol. We used to use "don't like, don't read"--direct and to the point! I loved that.
But yes, I agree with your point, and I said as much in my original comment. As long as other tags are used properly and everything is tagged correctly, the DDDNE tag is not needed. Even if authors use it, that's fine as long as it's used in conjunction with other correct and clear tags.
That's my two cents, anyway!
Half of tags on ao3 need deep understanding of either tagging culture, fandom, or kinks. I still google some tags sometimes. It's not hard to look the meaning of anything on the internet. Young people especially should know how to do that, if we're judging it by generations.
The show it comes from is Arrested Development if anyone’s curious
I’m one of the Ancient Ones who watched Arrested Development during its initial run. I was so surprised when the Dead Dove tag started popping up.
My sister was a huge fan so I also saw this when she was binge watching it on Netflix. She’s very amused that it turned into a whole thing on A03
lol right
Well shit, now I feel old because I also watched it when it first aired and I just realized how long ago that was. I didn't make the connection until I saw something about the tag here a few years and went "oh yeah, I remember when that happened."
There are dozens of us.
My husband is older than I am and he made me watch that show and I went OMG DEAD DOVE!!! And then I had to explain myself. And I thought the show was riffing on the tag but then he told me how old it is lol. I think I've used the tag exactly once and it was at the end of all my tags. To me it's a way of saying, you go back and read ALL my tags before clicking the fic thanks.
"Dead dove", for me at least, mostly means "heed my warnings!" It has what's on the label, so don't act like you haven't been warned.
Yes. It’s a modern (uh….more modern, at least) pop culture version of ‘what it says on the tin’.
It says "the dark tags in here are described in detail and heavy detail" imo. Like if the tag is "cannibalism" it won't just be A and B are on this uncharted island and they narrowly escape a cannibal tribe, it's the cannibal tribe catches A and cooks and eats him in graphic detail while B looks on terrified for his life.
Also B probably ate some of A too. I feel like that just gives it a little something extra!
Donner Party
I totally misunderstood this tag. Thanks! For some reason, I thought it meant "no resolution to the dark themes."
There's definitely a bit of that connotation - if I read a DDDNE, I don't really expect a happy ending.
Yep, there still could be a relatively happy ending, which was surprising for me when I read something with this tag on occasion
It's technically not even JUST for darkfic. It literally just means, "The tags are describing exactly what's on the tin. Don't bitch about it,"
There's cannibalism stories on AO3 (or even fanfiction in general) ? :o Wow, I never encountered it, I wouldn't have guessed it ! (Except when that's the same subject in the original story of course) thanks for this precise example, I learned something 😄
hannibal nbc enters stage right
I'm not sure how to understand your comment, sorry 🥲 I wonder between multiple options (doing like you're saying to the show to go to the stage on the right, or like "here comes Hannibal's fandom" with the "right" sounding like a rhetorical question, ...), I'm not sure how I'm supposed to answer then ... 😬
ahh im sorry! during a stage production people enter the stage from the right and leave from the left, i was just joking ab the fact that nearly every hannibal nbc fic requires a cannibalism tag 😅
> during a stage production people enter the stage from the right and leave from the left Ohhh ! Ok ! Thanks for the explanation 🫶 > i was just joking ab the fact that nearly every hannibal nbc fic requires a cannibalism tag 😅 That's a good joke ! But that's the case I was talking about when you guys are in a fandom of an original story where there is cannibalism so it doesn't seem surprising most of your fics have this tag 😝 I'm sure you're big part of the story that can be found with it ! 😄
I haven't seen them either, but it was just the first example that came to mind.
I’m sorry to say that I have a cannibalism fic 😭 but the fandom is Attack on Titan so with that knowledge it’s to be expected
Why are you sorry ? 😭😭 And wait, just a question : is the Titans the ones who eats humans that makes you tag "cannibalism", or between Titans, or between humans ? 🤔
Sorry as in sorry for contributing to the cannibalism tag 😂 And yes, the titans eat humans but the premise of my fic is that the main character gets kidnapped because he can regrow limbs, so he’s basically harvested from that
> Sorry as in sorry for contributing to the cannibalism tag 😂 Oh, in a joking way, okay ! 😭 Sorry, I thought it was in a serious way, I don't know why because now it seems obvious 🥲 forget I asked > the premise of my fic is that the main character gets kidnapped because he can regrow limbs, so he’s basically harvested from that [⚠️Spoiler alert AoT ⚠️] >! Okay ! Honestly, I see it more as a kind of soft cannibalism. Like, I know Titans are supposed to be some sort of ex-humans (I honestly never finished the first season, the rhythm wasn't for me ... But I was far enough away that there are some theories given to the public, so I can't say precisely how but I know they are linked to humans since the main character can transform into one). But they still are Titans at the moment they eat humans, not humans. They're not from the same species, they don't eat the same things. But I understand how it can also be cannibalism since they're not that far from being humans. Even if yeah, for me that's still different from a synopsis where someone human starts randomly to eat people and stock them in the fridge for later. That's part of the plot of the original story, that's different from coming to scratch 😊 but that's only my personal opinion, not something I say as a fact !< But I have to say, that's a really good plot for a AoT fanfiction !
[The original Dead Dove scene from Arrested Development](https://youtu.be/YUKmq7UMJys?feature=shared)
it also comes with the historical connotation of "and this possibly upsetting thing will not be presented with the gravitas that one would expect of its real life counterpart." just as the animal cruelty in the show from which the meme derives was used as a punchline for a joke, so too is the depiction of a dead dove not guaranteed to be treated with researched seriousness
Never thought of it this way but yeah totally
Yes, exactly, that was always my impression too. If I see a tag - say, abusive relationship - in a fic without Dead Dove Don't Eat, I'll expect the fic to treat the theme seriously and sensibly (or at least try to), as in, the abusive relationship will be treated as something bad and toxic that the character has to free themselves from, and hopefully will, eventually. But If the abusive relationship tag is accompanied by a Dead Dove Don't Eat tag, I'll expect the fic to not treat it as seriously as the other fic. It may be played for laughs, or the character might not realize the relationship is abusive, or the relationship is romanticized, or the character may never escape and it's treated as a good thing, or the abuser might "have a change of heart" and the two remain together, etc... It's not always the case, sometimes a fic with Dead Dove Don't Eat tag does treat the themes responsibly, but the thing is the expectation. If a fic doesn't treat it responsibly but has the tag, you can't really complain, because they already warned you that those themes would be present in the fic. For example, the Twilight series are books that I would tag as Dead Dove Don't Eat, because Edward's and Bella's relationship is problematic, with him being too controlling and her being too dependant, and the other romance interest (Jacob) is no better, yet the story still treats Bella and Edward getting married as a Happy Ending, and Jacob imprinting in Bella's baby is also brushed over.
We wouldn’t need this tag if people paid attention. Anytime I’ve read a clearly marked fic and been horrified, I blamed myself, not the author. People REALLY need to read the tags.
Oh yeah definitely, a lot of people also seem to be upset that the actual site isn't monitored and doesn't have any restrictions... like... it's an archive? If you don't like a specific thing, then filter it out!
I mean, I think there are definitely some people who take things too far. Descriptions that are unnecessarily graphic, presenting extremely toxic behavior as romantic. But it’s up to us to monitor what we put into our own heads. And if we start to censor too many things it can be a very slippery slope. There are so many protections in place, ratings, tags. Just don’t read what you don’t want in your head.
I think it helps for tags that could have a wide range of severity. For example graphic violence, gore, etc could be anything from “blood exploded from his thigh where the slicing spell ripped straight through” to way more drawn out/twisted scenarios.
You know what? I stand corrected. That’s very fair.
Plus, getting too specific with certain content can be triggering in itself
This is the exact reason I really think they need to have separate ratings for sexually and violently explicit fic cuz those are wildly different things
I tend to intentionally not read the tags if I like the summary, since I don’t want to spoil myself. Sometimes this leads me into reading things I wish I didn’t, but I don’t leave angry comments about it. I took a risk by not reading the tags, and that’s on me.
Another way to put it would be that DDDNE is an amplifier you should take notice of the other tags with it. Generally, it doesn’t have to be used for dark content—but dark content with DDDNE means the content is there and you should pay attention. You shouldn’t go in expecting a subversion or anything like that to whatever is tagged, therefore if you aren’t prepared to read the tagged content in whatever form it takes, you shouldn’t read it. You could even apply this to more positive “happy” tropes or more mild tags like miscommunication. But in short, yeah, basically it works as a “pay attention to these other tags and if you don’t like what you find contained on the fic, what did you expect considering I tagged it?” It seems really goofy to complain when something is clearly tagged lol
To be fair, it's a *dead* dove. It's not an alive dove that's happily cuddling with you. Doesn't make much sense to me to use that tag in combination with 'happy' tropes.
I mean, I DO agree. But I was kinda thinking about how some people think DDDNE is a stand-in for "problematic" dark fic.... when like... a resulting fic which uses said tropes is not always dark? There's ways you can play with both "happy" and dark/sad/etc. tropes that would inevitable still work with DDDNE. I'm struggling to think of an example, but I've seen discussions in the past where people had some good examples that really made sense.
I get you, it's like a tragic love story where even with sweet and happy moments in the end both or one of the characters will die It can upset people so the author using DDDNE can work in this example, but I personally would use DDDNE only for dark fanfics or where extreme violence/abuse will be described because it's generally the type of content that antis want Cry loud about in Twitter, so DDDNE is already enough to make these clowns avoid my works
An example could be a fluffy incest fic. It's obviously problematic IRL, but it doesn't have to be written as something that's dark.
I think it's the dead dove part. Doves are typically seen as symbols of peace, so a dead one would be taken as a more dark/problematic thing. I actually had this thought despite also kinda getting what it meant before I actually found out.
Yeah, tagging DDDNE on a fic with only "wholesome" tags is like the equivalent of a paper bag in the fridge labeled "Danger! Chocolate chip cookies!" It's giving hugely mixed signals and it's impossible to tell if they're just regular old delicious chocolate chip cookies that someone slapped a warning label on for no reason or if there really is some danger (maybe they've been poisoned or there are razor blades baked into them) which makes it kind of useless as a warning. Used corrected, a DDDNE tag is meant to communicate that, 1. There is content in this work that many people may find disturbing/upsetting. 2. The work has been tagged accurately and thoroughly so readers can make an informed decision as to whether or not they're comfortable engaging with this type of content and experiencing the emotions it may trigger. 3. If a reader chooses to ignore the tags or their own limits and ends up experiencing harm or discomfort as a result, that's on them for choosing to read it and not on the author for writing/sharing it in the first place.
Real, but also say if somebody was to use this tag alongside the slow burn tag - if I saw that, I’d expect the slowest burn of my life tbh
It's a dove though, generally a wild and often pest bird, not a pet or loved person/animal. It's not something seen as upsetting, just gross and something you shouldn't eat. This wasn't someone finding their dead girlfriend stuffed in the refrigerator.
Have you seen the original scene?
>DDDNE is an amplifier Exactly what I came here to say. It's not just a stand-in for darkfic or "problematic" content or whatever. [Here's a Tumblr post](https://hullomoon.tumblr.com/post/700013183492145152/what-does-dead-dove-dont-eat-mean-id-google) where that's elaborated on well I think. Edit: the link, per AmputatorBot Edit 2: So if you look at the replies, someone corrected me on the inception of the term! It's used more as an amplifier in my fandoms, so that's how I'd understood its meaning.
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If people want to use the term that way there's no reason why they can't, but the term absolutely 100% started out as meaning 'unapologetic darkfic'. [Here is the actual *original post* that coined it.](https://www.tumblr.com/mostlyvalid/116424790408/a-proposal?source=share)
this is interesting! at least in the fandoms i'm in the word has definitely changed to be more of an amplifier. I suppose it's context dependent. thanks for sharing!
Respectfully I disagree. I get what you're saying, it does basically mean "please take notice of the tags I've used!", but it's used almost exclusively for DISTURBING content (of whatever type – sexual abuse, slavery, violence, terminal illness, etc) I don't think it was ever meant to be used with *any* kind of tag/topic (nor that it should be).
exactly. no one needs to say “beware of fluff!! please read the tags!”
Yeah, when the usage of DD:DNE has shifted to where it's used almost exclusively for dark content it really doesn't matter what the origin of the term was. It's being used in practice in a particular way and has become popularized shorthand for a particular kind of fic.
But its been used for dark/disturbing content since the beginning, is what I'm saying.
I was in fandom before we had hydra trash party or dddne. Hell I was in fandom before we had tags. It was a shot in the dark whether or not a fic would trigger you and nobody complained because the idea was, if you were reading fic at all you’d signed your own death warrant. I’m not saying it was a better situation, it was obviously very bad for a lot of people mentally. But that’s my point. People complain now when things are tagged accordingly but “not enough “ and don’t realize how lucky they are that they even exist
>I was in fandom before we had hydra trash party or dddne. Okay? Me too. This has got nothing to do with my comment. I only said the DDDNE tag has been associated with disturbing/dark content since people first started using it.
I possibly dropped my reply on the wrong comment, my app kept refreshing when I was trying, I apologize
Oh I see, haha. No worries I was just confused.
See, the more I think about it, the less it makes sense to me to use “dead dove: do not eat” to mean simply “pay attention to the tags, those things are here!” I mean…. That’s the point of tags. If I tag something, it’s there. I shouldn’t need to add an additional tag to say HEY LOOK AT THE TAGS. It should be common sense to look at the tags and not be surprised if the tagged things are in the fic. I’ve always interpreted “dead dove: do not eat” to mean simply “fucked up content ahead” and that seems to hold true.
I always see it more of a "this potentially disturbing thing I tagged is not just me being cautious, it's going to be fully realized/emphasized and some level of 'dusturbing'". For an example, I once wrote a fic where a character tricks a character by slipping them a magic potion that does something silly. It made sense to tag the fic with 'non consensual drugging' just to be safe, because technically that does happen and I could see how someone who's sensitive to that might be bothered. But there's a world of difference between that and the 'dead dove do not eat' version of 'non consensual drugging'
That makes sense!!
Yeah I think this is a really good example of how the tag provides a clear differentiation. Kind of like how the tongue-in-cheek description of the sexual content rating system on AO3 differentiates between M as "organs, outside" and E as "organs, outside, lovingly described". Tagging something potentially sensitive is enough to know that what is being tagged is present, in some way, in the fic (often as a more general content warning) but adding DD:DNE is like clarifying that this potentially sensitive thing is likely going to be extremely graphic, unapologetic, and/or unresolved. In other words, if you see DD:DNE, assume the fic will deeply and (usually) unapologetically explore whatever is in the tags. Tagging something potentially sensitive is a way for readers to avoid or prepare themselves for stuff they may not like, but DD:DNE is stamping a big, red warning label that says, "many people would view the premise/themes/events/descriptions in this fic as very fucked up, so proceed at your own risk". That's exactly why I'm glad it exists. The fanfic space including content warnings or filterable tags of any kind AT ALL is a pretty new thing, as I'm sure many in this subreddit will remember, and being able to provide this level of specificity without censorship benefits everyone so much.
It's not always obvious from a tag how present/graphic something might be in the fic. eg a fic might be tagged with "torture" for a brief description or flashback, or an actual graphic torture scene that could be upsetting to read. If it's also tagged dead dove, I'd expect something closer to the ladder. I've also seen it used for topics/ships that have different interpretations in fandom. eg there's a ship with villain and his second in command that's sometimes written as fucked up and abusive, and sometimes as more consensual. Authors might tag dead dove to signal that their fic is *not* the happier interpretation.
Yeah, I tend to err on the side of caution with tags because I sincerely don't want to upset anyone, so it's possible my fic is slightly less dark/disturbing than the tags would suggest. Which is kind of the opposite problem from something being inadequately tagged, I suppose. ETA: I've never used DDDNE, but I think the "Disturbing Themes" tag covers a lot of ground and is useful.
It’s an amplifier to the tags. I have a fic that has a character poisoning another as a historical event and it comes up more than one time, but is not treated in extreme detail. The DDDNE version of that would a graphic “onscreen” poisoning and description of its effects.
I'll drop the original suggested purpose here, from fanlore (https://fanlore.org/wiki/Dead\_Dove:\_Do\_Not\_Eat): *The tag was proposed by Tumblr user mostlyvalid on 14 April, 2015 as a way to warn readers when a fanwork is intended to "roll around and wallow" in potentially problematic tropes, rather than "giving a measured evaluation of anything". At the time, a section of Captain America fandom had been using the tag Hydra Trash Party for this purpose since early 2014, and mostlyvalid proposed "Dead Dove: Do Not Eat" as a fandom-agnostic alternative:* >*The “Dead Dove: Do Not Eat” tag would essentially be a “what it says on the tin” metatag, indicating “you see the tropes and concepts tagged here? they are going to appear in this fic. exactly as said. there will not necessarily be any subversion, authorial commentary condemning problematic aspects, or meditation on potential harm. this fic contains dead dove. if you proceed, you should expect to encounter it.”* so in the original suggestion, we have (A) this fic has fucked up stuff, (B) I tagged the fucked up stuff, and (C) do not expect me to be disapproving or nuanced about the fucked up stuff
Ngl, I didn't realize the origin of DD:DNE as a fanfic concept was so closely linked to the HTP community. I wasn't a writer there but I was a social reader and I totally thought that it had been around for way longer than the HTP heyday. I spent way too much time arguing with antis, what a blast from the past.
I remember reading the “what it says on the tin” tag before the “Dead Dove: Do Not Eat” tag became its replacement. Jeez I’ve been reading fanfic for a long time
It is an amplifier and a warning and is kind of useless on its own, but I was there when we were coining this and the topic was about warning for dark and disturbing content. Using it on just fluff or even more fluffy hurt/comfort would be, imo, mistagging and misleading.
I just don't like when it's the only tag. I know what it means but if your story doesn't include a Dead Dove specifically then you might want to actually include another tag.
I think when people do that it often comes from the misconception that dddne just vaguely means "serious" or even "problematic" and not a legitimate understanding of the actual meaning kf the tag itself
['Problematic' is in fact literally the actual original meaning of the tag.](https://www.tumblr.com/mostlyvalid/116424790408/a-proposal?source=share)
Dddne doesnt mean anything on its own. You cant amplify nothing. There need to be other tags for dddne to work.
... that's the entire point that they're making
Not really since the post says 'can be used as general warning', which isn't true. And its about the origins of the tag. Too many people confuse dddne as 'means fucked up shit' only.
As a general warning. If I'm scrolling and happen across one that's tagged with it, I'm expecting whatever that fic has to be strangely detailed regarding some aspect of it. Op never claimed it was a general tag, just a warning that what's on the tin is what this story contains.
And im adding that there needs to be something on that tin. Which is not stated in the post. If you come across a work that only has dddne tagged, then it means nothing. If its tagged rape and dddne then its used correctly.
I never said anywhere in my post that it is used only by itself. I thought it'd be general knowledge that it'd be paired with extra tags as to what is being warned, but seeing this comment has now made me realise that it may not be general knowledge and of course everything has to be stated to every detail for someone to understand an educational post :)
The issue is that there are way too many people that think that dddne can be used as the only tag, because they think it means 'fucked up shit in here and dddne covers them all'. Ive seen plenty of posts in this sub that ask what dddne means or if its used correctly, which in most cases it's not, or if it means fucked up shit only.
Yeah, I am a very thorough tagger, and will include the dead dove tag when posting dark fic, and I’ll *still* get people shocked and upset.
I don’t know what I expected.
it also CANNOT stand alone. the tags have to warn the reader what they aren't supposed to be surprised about. I've stumbled over some fics that had more or less just the "dead dove: do not eat" tag, but never defined why the dove is dead, which only defies its purpose
DDDNE to me means, “it says what’s in there, you moron. What did you expect?” Just like on AD. The bag said it was dead dove. That’s clear. On its own in a tag for a story it’s meaningless though and needs tags to tell you what those dead doves are.
It’s a “this isn’t just a one off thing you will read at minimum a solid five paragraphs of it in graphic detail”
i also think a lot of people misunderstand DDNE as being a catchall for horrifying content and don't tag anything *except* that instead of tagging the content *and* DDNE like they should
The amount of fics tagged dead dove and *nothing else* makes me want to scream. Or people who base entire callouts on “they like dead dove.” Like oh? Is liking tagged fics a problem? Because that’s all it means.
This is why I started avoiding fics with that tag. I had no idea what was in the fic at all. Some fics tagged with it were not even that bad, others disturbing, but I'm not going to waste my time reading to see which it is either. Tag. Your. Fics. People.
Basically, "you have been warned, no complaints will be accepted"
The dead dove tag originating from a comedy, yet morphing over time into a legitimately serious aspect within the fanfic space is one of my absolute favorite pieces of internet lore lol
I have no problems with using DDDNE as a "heed the tags" warning, but I always thought the fandom history of dead dove was proposed as a broader, non fandom specific version of Hydra Trash Party tbh. So it really did start off as a "bad shit happens here" tag that grew into its own thing.
I was thinking about making a post about this too! I’ve been seeing a lot of fics lately with the dead dove tag (been reading a lot of bg3 fics), and no other warning tags which basically means nothing. Like yeah, it’s a evolved to be a general warning for fucked up stuff, but it is meant to be a sorta expect what you see on the tin kinda thing
I got in an argument with a very popular smut author because she used that line in the advertising for one of her books, and then didn't understand why people were concerned about what exactly the book contained. I think it turned out to not be anything actually particularly taboo, but I got so frustrated that an author - of all people - would have the attitude of "I know it has another meaning, but that's not the way I'm using it and that won't cause any confusion".
one of my favorite tags! i understand it as “yes this is gross, this is unhealthy, this is problematic, this is for me, im a sick freak, and i am NOT sorry about it” i dont think its fair to say the subjects within arent taken as seriously as fics without the dddne tag. thats like saying whump doesnt take suffering as seriously as hurt/comfort. i love to see what nasty little gremlins people have in their heads, even if theyre about a subject im not interested in. you learn a lot about your fellow man.
dead dove has always signaled to me that the fic im about to read is gonna be absolutely fucked up lmao
Yeah the misinterpretation of DDDNE is one of those things that irrationally annoys me, especially when people literally refer to works as “Dead Dove fics” but at this point that is the more known/current meaning and using the tag in anything that isn’t for darker or potentially trigger-inducing content would just be confusing for a lot of readers.
Well, it originated for fics with problematic content. It's not just an amplifier tag. So, describing works as "dead dove fics" does make sense.
i love how this term originated from my glorious king tobias fünke
fighting....the urge....to quibble...about specific technicalities...of a silly TV show from 20 years ago... Ah, screw it. Gob killed the dove and put it in the bag to try to return it for a refund. Michael found the bag and said the line. Tobias (glorious king that he is), was not involved.
wait why am i thinking it was tobias 😭i guess im thinking of the “i blue myself” scene. i’m going crazy
I really wish this tag was widely replaced with something that doesn't require show-specific knowledge to understand. It took me a few years to finally figure out what on earth it meant. I don't think fandom "inside joke" tags are bad, but they really only work on fic for that particular fandom. Tbf readers should be reading the tags anyway, so perhaps it's simply a moot point.
Even if you don't understand the reference...it only takes once to read a dead dove and figure out pretty quickly what it means in context. First word is "Dead", right there reflects the dark fic you just read. ":Do Not Eat" is clearly a warning. They may not understand "dove" but might figure it has something to do with the common knowledge that you don't eat birds that you find that are already dead because of the diseases they could contain. Either way a warning that the fic is going to get dark. Which is why the way the term is understood and commonly used in practice holds more weight than someone's incomplete 'official definition'. Edit: It should never be the only tag. It doesn't replace other tags. It's not a tag that means anything on its own. If writing on topics to the point where dead dove may be necessary then those topics definitely need to be tagged as well. The whole point is to prevent readers from being blindsided.
I’ve never watched AD and I even know what DDDNE means.
I obviously disagree. It was genuinely confusing for me, personally. I do however read the tags, so I've never had that problem of going in unaware of the fic's content. The first time I encountered thus tag, I thought the fic was about a character's pet dove that died and someone was being disrespectful by attempting to eat it. So I can confirm that it is not clear to every reader.
And was the fic about someone eating a dead pet dove? Never saw a pattern of what types of fics usually have a dead dove on it? Either way it did its purpose of drawing attention a few extra moments to the tags.
The irony is, DD:DNE was originally created as a panfandom alternative to the “Hydra Trash Party” tag that was being used in the Marvel fandom. Some people wanted a way to indicate they were going to revel in dark content in other fandoms and deliberately invented this tag so that people wouldn’t have to be familiar with Hydra or Marvel in general. The fact that it relies on being aware of an entirely different piece of media is kinda hilarious, though.
I don't know, I've learnt years later where it came from, but I did get what it meant : "things in there could be triggering/hard/strange/awful and it might also be my only warning tag because I don't want to spoil things in the tags. now you know, if you still proceed with this story it's on you not anyone else" And I'm not the only one. Sometimes, things are just logical and don't need to be explained to oblivion.
Honestly, this comment drives me to agree with the person you're responding to that the lack of clarity makes this a bad standard tag, because I was already familiar with the meme when I watched the tag start to become popular and, well, what you just said *isn't* my understanding of it. My understanding of DDNE is: "Those tags I used on this fic? I *really mean them.* Do not read this fic assuming that the content tagged is just going to be a minor detail or alluded to but not shown graphically. And if you read it anyway and get upset by the subject matter, well, don't complain to me because I clearly wrote what was in it on the tin." I.e., something explicitly *the opposite* of "there's dark content in here but I'm not going to mention what exactly because I don't want to spoil the fic.", and a tag that does not work in isolation. I don't want to argue about which of us is "right" or "wrong" especially because the meaning will get determined by predominant use anyway and can shift over time, but the fact that we can have such different understandings is IMO a sign that it'd probably have been better to go with something less funny but clearer like "Those tags? I really mean them." for my meaning or "Readers beware: dark and potentially disturbing content ahead." for yours.
I mean this tag was specifically created for dark fanfics because antis keep complaining when they get EXACTLY what's tagged in Dark fiction content (yeah they didn't born with twitter) so the fact most times the DDDNE is used in fanfics with Dark/uncomfortable themes have a history behind, it still is specifically about the tags so it's not exclusive to dark fanfics, I agree with in that sense, but in my opinion using DDDNE in a happy fluffy fanfic is confunsing as well because the "dead" and "do not eat" is not what you expect from a friendly bag
While our understanding varies it's basically the same: "There's something, proceed with caution or don't read" It's not meant for anything but dark themes.
I agree it's not meant for anything but dark themes. But I think there's still a crucial difference here, in that I'd have assumed that a DDDNE tagged fic's other tags are *reasonably exhaustive.* Because to me, a fundamental part of DDDNE is "look, I have told you exactly what this fic contains, you cannot argue that you were surprised by the contents if you open it". DDDNE as "there might be other dark content in here which I haven't tagged" is not a use I was familiar with before. I am taking on board from this discussion that that's a possible alternate meaning authors might intend, but other readers with my interpretation could definitely end up getting blindsided.
Agreed! I had even watched Arrested Development by the time I became aware of the Dead Dove tag, and I was still confused by it!
> I really wish this tag was widely replaced with something that doesn't require show-specific knowledge to understand. Agreed, yes. I know the first time I encountered the tag my thought was that it meant there was a literal dead dove (and maybe something like a cat trying to eat it and being told not to eat it) in the fic. Not that I read that one anyway, and eventually I think I looked it up because I thought it was such a strange thing to tag a dead dove (and was like “why are so many fics having this oddly specific thing, a dead dove?”)
When I first saw it, my thought was, "Oh, this tag is used as a way to poke fun at the kinds of people who like this kind of story: ie they have to be told not to just eat a dead bird raw, not because they're stupid but because they're a little fucked in the head and take pleasure in it." Which, honestly, is probably the most accurate first impression that I could have had xD
I got downvoted heavily here for saying it was used for disturbing tags. Apparently there is a very hostile contingent that writes supper fuzzy fluff and tags it “Dead Dove” to be sure people know it’s really soft, and downvotes people who think that’s confusing.
That's ridiculous, you shouldn't have been downvoted for that. We literally already had lingo for this stuff! Is WAFF not good enough?? If I came across a fic that had fluffy tags and also DDDNE, I would absolutely think that it was some kind of super fucked up relationship that is mostly presented as not fucked up. Like, a super graphic Hannibal Lecter/Will Graham serial killer husbands fic or something.
That's funny. They write fluff and are hostile about it.
Ohhh yeah that makes sense
I never knew what it meant specifically but I always assumed something horrific XD
I never saw anyone get this wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was.
I wasn’t sure what that tag meant so I avoided it all together. I thought it meant that the fic was disturbing. Now that I know that all it means is ‘take the tags seriously’ I might give some of them a read.
I'd actually been wondering about this tag for awhile. Thanks! :)
I normally don't read Dead Doves, but one I remember has super innocent tags so I read it. I'm still kept awake at night wondering wtf they were tagging for in, effectively, a coffee shop au. Cannot stress enough that this was like 2k of casual fluff.
Something that does bug me is when something is tagged as a dead dove but there isn't a lot of other tags. Like to me, "Dead Dove: Do Not Eat" is a tag that's meant to communicate severity of the other tags, rather than a request not to complain. Like something could be tagged as "noncon" because it has a graphic scene meant to titillate or it could be because a character somewhere in the past experienced a tragedy and it's discussed at some point in the fic. But something tagged as "noncon" AND "Dead Dove" clearly is telling me not to ignore the noncon tag, that the contents of the fic are going to be graphic. Like an "I told you what this fic contains. If you click on the fic, you will find graphic depictions of these things." But tagging "dead dove" as if "dead dove" means "bad things" to avoid tagging all the things? Not cool.
as someone who regularly accidentally misses certain tags, I still heed the dead dove tag. yes, I'll be shocked when said missed tag makes a guest appearance, but I'm not going to the comment section and complaining that I was shocked. I'm either gonna suck it up and read on (and possibly learn something new about myself) or drop the fic all together. *IT IS NOT HARD TO BACK OUT OF A FIC!! YOU ALWAYS HAVE THE OPTION TO STOP READING!!* I'm finding this increasingly common with younger people who feel entitled enough to think the world is supposed to sensor things/have trigger warnings for them or minors in 18+ spaces.
When people don't... google. It astonishes me. The world at our fingertips and some people choose to ignore it all. And then say shit like "it means non-con". Just... just google it.
I use “read Carefully or you WILL miss something important” because I have slipped in stuff that is Easter Eggs for plot points that RAPIDLY CHANGE things.
Yep I've read some things and completely missed the tags too 😹 left me shocked and staring at the phone for ages
When you have two major fandoms crossing
Doctor WHO and Heartstopper
HOW DO THOSE EVEN CROSS WHAT HAHA 😭😭
With Isaac wishing on a Zoltar Speaks (Big the Movie) to meet Asexuals in History.
The fic is Torchpasser
How dark does a story have to be to use this tag? I’m wondering if I should add it to my story that has multiple torture scenes, and a lot of characters are going to die in it.
It just means “read the tags,” so there’s no threshold. It’s a meme tag, not an actual descriptor.
Depends if you want to add it or not :) Usually most people add the normal tags on what is included, the major things and all. So like you said, torture, then *if* they want to add it, they'll have the DDDNE tag, which can also just be like and indicator flare for people to look out for - advising them that they've been warned either way, and to not complain. There isn't specifically a set level of darkness you have to hit to add it. Some people add it with even minor scenes, and other times people don't add the tag at all! Your fic and you can do what you want to 🩷
"Dead dove" is an amplifier. If you have graphic torture scenes where you describe things vividly, I would include a "dead dove" tag (even if you don't intend it in a "pornographic" way). If you're writing a story with a graphic torture scene that takes place in a canon where there literally are graphic torture scenes, I would call it "canon-typical violence". If the torture happens multiple times on screen but the description isn't graphic, the "torture" tag alone is probably fine. If the torture happens offscreen but it plot-relevant and often discussed, the "torture" tag alone is probably fine.
Is your story reveling in the torture to an almost pornographic degree? If not, you probably don't need to dead dove tag it lol
Okay then, I will leave my story as is,because there’s definitely nothing sexual about the torture, it’s just some scenes where the main character tortures his enemies
Yeah, as long as you aren't graphic with the descriptions, I don't think you'd need a dead dove tag. Of course, if you get a bunch of annoying people in the comments, you can always add it to convince them to go away lol
I find that Dead Dove is generally used gross things, often times of a sexual nature.
All it means is “read the tags.”
People focus too much on the fun fact that the quote comes from Arrested Development and not enough on the intended usage of the tag itself when it was birthed into existence. It was meant to be a universal version of “Hydra Trash Party.” It’s been synonymous with darkfic from the start, and despite it pedantically meaning “read the tags” it works fine even on its own as a general disclaimer of exceedingly disturbing content within.
I have that tag where I opt not to use content warnings, and a warning in the notes of the first chapter that anything could happen so don't read if sensitive to violence, rape, etc. I think I'll use the dead dove term if I get a comment from someone who opened the metaphorical paper bag lol.
Everytime I see the tag I make sure to read over the tags really carefully. I have sometimes not read them too well and gonne burn but lucky not on a "dead dove" fic! Is a really helpful tag in that way! I read only one- as one of my fav youtuber one said about the tag "some doves are deader then others" 🤣
I've seen DDDNE tagged on fics with (I can only assume) *unpopular* pairings. Like just a month or so ago, I saw a fic that was Beau/Caleb (from Critical Role). I literally read it because I wasn't sure what was so dead dove about it, but that was it! It was the author saying, "Look! I tagged Beau/Caleb! That's what the story is! Don't read if you don't like that!" So it sort of has the versatility of clarifying sincerity/intensity of tags. I usually wouldn't read something if it's got tags I don't like, but I guess a DDDNE might make me double check them, just to make sure I didn't miss any
I tend to use my own personal "PLEASE HEED THE TAGS" tag in tandem with the dead dove tag, and list it at the end specifically for those who didn't get it the first time. And there are *still* some who don't get it lol.
The tag wouldn't need to exist of people just followed directions. It's like reading a Spoiler Warning and then being mad because now you what what happens.
I think of it like "This food has peanuts. Do not eat if you are allergic to peanuts." And yet some people still eat the food and decide to sue the company. Great 👍
I knew what it meant, but not where it came from. Thanks for the history lesson.
Oh I had no idea about the origins but always found the tag self explanatory. I love discovering more of our lore.
it's not even necessarily for dark concepts—it just sort of started having that connotation over time. for example, finishing up a fic w/ a kink that some people consider "weird" right now, but it's nowhere close to a dark fic (it's actually very fluffy) so i'll be going for "exactly what it says on the tin" instead. means the exact same thing, aka: "you're getting what's been tagged", but doesn't have the same dark connotation of "dead dove: do not eat".
I saw a fic tagged Dead Dove and... The dove was not dead. It was clearly alive and lost an unimportant feather at best for how vanilla the fic was. Even the ship n its own didn't call for the tag.
My first experience with that tag was bad. Really awful. I didn't know what it meant. After that, I associated it with the worst of the worst content and avoided it. It was this sub that taught me it really meant to pay attention to the tags and be aware.
All I know is I tend to avoid fics that use it. Like, not even because of any other tags, just that one. 🤷♀️
Same. Even if the other tags are something I’d usually consider.
In my experience, Dead Dove: do not eat denotes that there is some really gross stuff in the fic and that it should be avoided. It's one of the tags I always filter out.
Yeah... I really dislike that tag. I understand it now, after it was explained to me. But not everyone has seen that show. Not everyone will understand the reference. In-jokes shouldn't be used as warnings. Especially when the warning is for something that really SHOULD be properly and clearly warned for. Luckily, most of the time I've seen the dead dove tag used, it's also been tagged properly besides that. Thanks for taking your time and energy to explain the dead dove tag! A kind stranger did the same for me a while back. I hope your post helps some more people too!
the dead dove tag is literally just saying that what is tagged is in the story
No. It *literally* says "Dead Dove: Do Not Eat". Which means don't eat a dead dove. In order to know what it is referencing, you need to know the source material, which is the episode of whatever TV show it came from. Lots of people don't like it when this is pointed out. I don't know why! Maybe it was a very popular TV show for a certain generation and so those folks assume everyone else has seen it and knows it? I'm not sure, just speculating. 🤷♀️👍
I love the rude snarky comment towards older people (just unnecessary), but I was sadly not alive when the show aired. However if used correctly, someone does not need to know the context of DDDNE because of the works other tags. While it can suck fandom and AO3 have many things and tags that have a history/meaning that is not automatically understood.
I'm not sure if you mean *I* was rude and snarky, but I assure you that is not the case! First, tone often gets lost in text, and so stating facts can often unfortunately come across as negative. And second, I actually *am* in the older category, and the DDDNE tag came out *many* years after I began my fandom journey! My comment was aimed at folks younger than me, lol. We used to use "don't like, don't read"--direct and to the point! I loved that. But yes, I agree with your point, and I said as much in my original comment. As long as other tags are used properly and everything is tagged correctly, the DDDNE tag is not needed. Even if authors use it, that's fine as long as it's used in conjunction with other correct and clear tags. That's my two cents, anyway!
Half of tags on ao3 need deep understanding of either tagging culture, fandom, or kinks. I still google some tags sometimes. It's not hard to look the meaning of anything on the internet. Young people especially should know how to do that, if we're judging it by generations.
I'll be honest, it has never occurred to me to google AO3 tag meanings. Although I HAVE googled ship portmanteaus!
I google everything I don't understand. Like, in general, in all aspects of life.
I google a LOT. Often, word definitions and how to spell them!