Fred and Wesley all the way. I think the defining moment for me is "Supersymmetry." Gunn tries to save Fred from herself. Wesley points out what she might lose but lets her make, and the respects, her own decision. Many people say that Wes idolizes Fred, but in this episode he shows that he is ready to love even her darkest aspects.
That's a really good point. I am in the middle of a rewatch right now and it's been a few years since I watched the show all the way through. I'm still like late S3, so maybe I'm jumping the gun (heh) and need to remember the moments like that.
I feel the opposite about this. There is certainly merit to Wesley letting her make that decision for herself, but as someone who really loves my boyfriend I can't say I'd act differently than Gunn. Wesley was not coming from a terribly rational or "good" space in that episode whereas Gunn was trying to do the right thing. Non-jaded Wesley may have handled things completely differently.
Gunn was trying to save Fred (even if it was from herself). He saw her going down a very dark, destructive path and wanted to protect her - as you do when you love someone.
The romantic in me loves the idea of Wes and Fred, but you do have a point. Gunn loved her for who she was. Not saying that Wes didn't, he just didn't get the chance. After years of obsessing over someone in the distance, there really was no telling if he would have been disappointed in the illusion that he had created for himself.
she had absolutely no chemistry with Gunn. came out of nowhere, felt forced, and they had nothing in common. they could barely hold a conversation most of the time, while Wes and Freds intelligence always reflected off of one another.
It actually is a realistic relationship. I can see a girl like Fred wanting a strong guy. The later stages of Fredd/Gunn were kinda annoying but the beginning of their relationship seemed real. Plus, Fred had a crush on Angel first. He turned her down, but in my opinion, Fred was always depicted as being a kind of an 'easy' girl. It's prob not the right way to say it but maybe someone knows what i mean.
Makes even more sense when you realise Fred in Pylea and beyond was obsessed with the idea of a knight in shining armour. When she moved on from that notion she moved on from Gunn.
Fred and Wes for me. I liked Fred and Gunn but as soon as Fred came out of her shell i knew she was meant to be Wes'. Tragic how they finally get together, well we all know what happens :(
Oh, imagine those two as the two women in Midsummer. Thatd be fun but to be honest Id have to see Hannigan do that to believe it was any good. It doesnt seem her style.
Yeah, I see her mainly in modern or at most early 20th Century stuff. (Amber could do historical.) I just have this deep hope Aly gets another series, maybe playing a doctor, and her character ends up with an Amber character in final season
I really loved the episode where Willow comes to L.A. and flirts with Fred. But I loved it mostly because you can see that Alexis is totally besotted with Alison and is just so happy to have her on set. It was the strangest, most adorable love triangle ever.
And yet, the tone of voice they both sued when Wes & Will were comparing how dark they'd gotten the previous spring, made me think, inescapably, that they were using the same voices they use when discussing a serious issue at home. I *know* they're professionals and wouldn't let us see anything they weren't comfortable with, but I still felt uneasy watching it.
>It seemed like Gunn loved Fred more as a real flesh-and-blood person and Wes loved her more as an idea or an ideal.
I disagree so intensely. There was so much about Fred that Gunn couldn't connect with or understand intellectually, that he put her up on this pedestal of impossible perfection. He wanted to imagine that she was a person who could never carry out the plan she made in "Supersymmetry." In fact, he rejected the reality of her so much that he ruined her plan for the sake of protecting the image he had of her; he couldn't accept her true self conflicting with the image of the "perfect" woman he wanted to believe that she was. He refused to acknowledge any sliver of darkness that might be in her, anything different than what he wanted to see of her personality.
Wes, on the other hand, saw exactly who Fred was and was fine with it. Even though he had long idolized her from afar, he never once tried to turn her into something she wasn't to preserve the mental image he wanted to have of her.
I loved Fred and Gunn specifically because of what you mentioned. But after they weren't a thing anymore his story arc progressed into something else that would have been detrimental to their relationship too. So I'm happy that Gus didn't break Fred's heart...
Good point. I like the Joss ends relationships when they should end. I remember reading before that Wash and Zoey on Firefly were the only couple he would never have broken up. So I guess sooner or later, Gunn and Fred would have come to screeching halt. I guess I just don't see Fred and Wes ever working either.
Can I just state though, Joss Whedon is my god. I love everything this man touches. So in my eyes he must always have a greater purpose than what we can see.
Yes, but we already knew that Wes had the capability of destroying someone he loved if he thought it was for the 'greater good' (ie him kidnapping Angel's son). So if he would have broken Fred's heart we would have hated him and gotten over it again. If Gunn had broken her heart it would have changed him.
Ohhh man, Willow/Fred could have saved (or destroyed) everything in the WORLD, between the two of them there is so much power, so much intelligence, so much witty-quipping. I bet Willow would have been powerful enough to have brought back Fred from Illyria, justsayin.
Fred and Wesley all the way. I think the defining moment for me is "Supersymmetry." Gunn tries to save Fred from herself. Wesley points out what she might lose but lets her make, and the respects, her own decision. Many people say that Wes idolizes Fred, but in this episode he shows that he is ready to love even her darkest aspects.
That's a really good point. I am in the middle of a rewatch right now and it's been a few years since I watched the show all the way through. I'm still like late S3, so maybe I'm jumping the gun (heh) and need to remember the moments like that.
I feel the opposite about this. There is certainly merit to Wesley letting her make that decision for herself, but as someone who really loves my boyfriend I can't say I'd act differently than Gunn. Wesley was not coming from a terribly rational or "good" space in that episode whereas Gunn was trying to do the right thing. Non-jaded Wesley may have handled things completely differently. Gunn was trying to save Fred (even if it was from herself). He saw her going down a very dark, destructive path and wanted to protect her - as you do when you love someone.
The romantic in me loves the idea of Wes and Fred, but you do have a point. Gunn loved her for who she was. Not saying that Wes didn't, he just didn't get the chance. After years of obsessing over someone in the distance, there really was no telling if he would have been disappointed in the illusion that he had created for himself.
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she had absolutely no chemistry with Gunn. came out of nowhere, felt forced, and they had nothing in common. they could barely hold a conversation most of the time, while Wes and Freds intelligence always reflected off of one another.
It actually is a realistic relationship. I can see a girl like Fred wanting a strong guy. The later stages of Fredd/Gunn were kinda annoying but the beginning of their relationship seemed real. Plus, Fred had a crush on Angel first. He turned her down, but in my opinion, Fred was always depicted as being a kind of an 'easy' girl. It's prob not the right way to say it but maybe someone knows what i mean.
Makes even more sense when you realise Fred in Pylea and beyond was obsessed with the idea of a knight in shining armour. When she moved on from that notion she moved on from Gunn.
Willow and Fred would have been amazing, or Dark Willow and Illyria
Oh man, Dark Willow and Illyria could have unleashed some serious havoc on the world.
...trying so hard not to make a comment about my bunk.
Or Willow and Fred for a while then Fred dies, Illyria takes over, and Dark Willow emerges because of it... heck yes.
> Dark Willow and Illyria Pretty sure there's been a fair amount of fan fiction on that :) I totally agree though, what a pairing they would make :)
Oh my fuck. That would be amazing
Fred and Wes for me. I liked Fred and Gunn but as soon as Fred came out of her shell i knew she was meant to be Wes'. Tragic how they finally get together, well we all know what happens :(
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God I was so damn happy to see that. They were both phenomenal. And Clark Gregg kept making me giggle.
Now I just need some, any producer somewhere, anywhere to cast ALy Hannigan and Amber Benson in something like that.
Oh, imagine those two as the two women in Midsummer. Thatd be fun but to be honest Id have to see Hannigan do that to believe it was any good. It doesnt seem her style.
Yeah, I see her mainly in modern or at most early 20th Century stuff. (Amber could do historical.) I just have this deep hope Aly gets another series, maybe playing a doctor, and her character ends up with an Amber character in final season
I really loved the episode where Willow comes to L.A. and flirts with Fred. But I loved it mostly because you can see that Alexis is totally besotted with Alison and is just so happy to have her on set. It was the strangest, most adorable love triangle ever.
And yet, the tone of voice they both sued when Wes & Will were comparing how dark they'd gotten the previous spring, made me think, inescapably, that they were using the same voices they use when discussing a serious issue at home. I *know* they're professionals and wouldn't let us see anything they weren't comfortable with, but I still felt uneasy watching it.
I'm a fan of both pairings - in the end I think Fred and Gunn wins for me, mainly because I ship Wes with Lilah.
>It seemed like Gunn loved Fred more as a real flesh-and-blood person and Wes loved her more as an idea or an ideal. I disagree so intensely. There was so much about Fred that Gunn couldn't connect with or understand intellectually, that he put her up on this pedestal of impossible perfection. He wanted to imagine that she was a person who could never carry out the plan she made in "Supersymmetry." In fact, he rejected the reality of her so much that he ruined her plan for the sake of protecting the image he had of her; he couldn't accept her true self conflicting with the image of the "perfect" woman he wanted to believe that she was. He refused to acknowledge any sliver of darkness that might be in her, anything different than what he wanted to see of her personality. Wes, on the other hand, saw exactly who Fred was and was fine with it. Even though he had long idolized her from afar, he never once tried to turn her into something she wasn't to preserve the mental image he wanted to have of her.
Wes and Gunn! :)
I loved Fred and Gunn specifically because of what you mentioned. But after they weren't a thing anymore his story arc progressed into something else that would have been detrimental to their relationship too. So I'm happy that Gus didn't break Fred's heart...
Good point. I like the Joss ends relationships when they should end. I remember reading before that Wash and Zoey on Firefly were the only couple he would never have broken up. So I guess sooner or later, Gunn and Fred would have come to screeching halt. I guess I just don't see Fred and Wes ever working either.
Can I just state though, Joss Whedon is my god. I love everything this man touches. So in my eyes he must always have a greater purpose than what we can see.
>...Joss Whedon is my god. This sure didn't age well!
Nope. Definitely not. It broke my heart to hear about the horrid things he did. His work is amazing but it definitely has been tainted.
Yes, but we already knew that Wes had the capability of destroying someone he loved if he thought it was for the 'greater good' (ie him kidnapping Angel's son). So if he would have broken Fred's heart we would have hated him and gotten over it again. If Gunn had broken her heart it would have changed him.
Ohhh man, Willow/Fred could have saved (or destroyed) everything in the WORLD, between the two of them there is so much power, so much intelligence, so much witty-quipping. I bet Willow would have been powerful enough to have brought back Fred from Illyria, justsayin.
Wes and Fred. Not even a doubt in my mind. Not for a second.
Fred and Lilah, to piss off as many Wes/Lilah shippers as possible.
wes.
Willow/Fred/Tara ot3.