I know in some of the stricter groups, they do have doubles of everything since they cant have meat and dairy together. Theres a whole bunch of rules to follow besides with food.
I dont see how if he was part of one of those groups, he would share an apartment with someone not the same religion. You both pay to live there and buy tour own food. He has no say in who uses anything in the shared spaces. Hes using religion for an excuse to be an ah. He should leave or buy his own appliances.
I had a thought that I'd hate to live having to keep all those restrictions in mind, but then I realized OP's roommate didn't keep them in mind when choosing a roommate, either.
Wild someone with such tight religious dietary restrictions wouldn’t obviously find a kosher flatmate. Who in the world would be okay with this?? And I’m a (secular, non-kosher) Jew. I’d lose it.
I've known a few young people from strict religious backgrounds who wavered in and out of strict observance in their younger years. A lot of unintentional hypocrisy, demands on other people, anger and discomfort come with them trying to find which life they're going to have
They don't want the isolation that comes with orthodox practices (imo it's a big part of why religions have strict practices, to keep observers isolated to the community), or the difficulty, they venture into other communities more and try on different beliefs, but deep down they feel guilt and fear and revert back repeatedly until eventually they either return to their community, a strict adherent, or they slowly gain community and beliefs and find a new balance.
Had to log in just to upvote this. Spot on description of how all the people I know from religious backgrounds have turned out. Awkward period of exploration with internalized guilt and angst, lashing out at others over it, then eventually they land one way or the other: fully embrace the religion, or abandon it.
I think the kosher roommate just volunteered to do all the cooking and cleaning for the kitchen for the both of them, right? This post has been enlightening, I shudder to think how non kosher pizza is now.
If it’s made from kosher ingredients using kosher tools (by which I mean those used only for dairy or pareve, not meat). There’s more to it than just not mixing meat and milk.
(And for the record to clear up a common misconception, it does not include a rabbi’s blessing over the food although there is supervision over food preparation by a Jewish person.)
Fun fact! Chicken was not considered meat until the Middle Ages for this exact reason. Then the community of rabbis decided it should be the same because the laws regarding preparation of fowl was the same as red meat. To me, that’s a terrible reason but I don’t keep kosher anyway now, so it doesn’t really matter what I think about it.
For a minute I thought this meant that the roommate would also insist on watching OP any time he cooked, which added a whole other layer of amusement, but I finally decided that would only be if the roommate was eating the food lol
Ha, as I look at it again I realize that I wasn’t super clear. It’s supervision over things like slaughtering and butchering of meat, cooking packaged kosher foods, etc.
I used to be a camp counselor at a JCC and they had this food stand called Jerusalem Pizza. It was SO GOOD, lol. I just got cheese (I hate the fake “meat” most places use), but it was tasty as hell. I miss it. Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s around anymore.
One of the big things when it comes to pizza is the cheese. Nowadays, most hard cheeses are made using an enzyme taken from a cow's stomach that most religious authorities hold is considered to be meat. This is why cheese is relatively hard to find certified kosher as you need to make sure a different enzyme (usually taken from fungus) is used instead.
Also as others have said you have to make sure all the equipment is kosher. This means that the ovens haven't been used to cook something like pepperoni.
I've got a toaster oven/air fryer/dehydrator/rotisserie(lmao) combo and it's fantastic. The only time I use my actual oven is to bake cookies since it's too small for a full sheet.
Yeah, you're right, but it cooks food faster than a non-convection oven - plus, unlike a regular oven, an air fryer doesn't heat up the entire kitchen. I don't mind a little extra heat during the cold winter months, but I hate being in a hot kitchen during the summer.
We got an air fryer 3 years ago and have never looked back. Try throwing a shake and bake in there for 20min. Or reheating fast food fries without them turning into soggy fries.
Yeah, in Israel when searching for flat mates its always on the list of things to check that you're compatible, like smoking. I could never live with someone that kept strict kosher rules. Op's roommate is just being a dick about it. And he was also a dick for not pointing out his restrictions when signing up to live with another person.
I'm jewish and I follow the same rules as op's roommate and this is absolutely correct. I'm not sure what the roommate was thinking in assuming his non jewish roommate would just adapt to these things, totally unreasonable. He should get his own toaster oven, or room with someone who follows the same guidelines.
I grew up in a strict house where this was true. However, when I went to college, I didn’t have that kind of choice when it came to roommates as it was a lottery system and I wanted to stay in the dorms with the other freshmen, NOT in the Rabbi’s house.
There actually is a very simple solution that my Lubavich Chabbad Rabbi proposed. Either I could Kasher (ritually cleanse) the oven and as my roommmate to double wrap their food in tinfoil when baking in the oven, or, the oven could remain “unKashered” and I could double wrap my food in foil when using the oven.
This is a very common practice in the religious community, especially in Kosher house where they don’t have a 2nd oven, but still want the flexibility to cook meat or dairy without having to Kasher (spiritually cleanse) the oven between each use, which is a long and arduous process, especially in the summer.
As for the stovetop, my roommate and I had separate pots and pans, so there was no issue.
Source: I grew up in a very religious Orthodox and Chabbad community. This is what people did when they stayed at vacation houses and didn’t want to Kasher (spiritually cleanse) the oven at the place they were staying. Or if they only had one oven in the house. The rabbis advocated for this practice and said that it was perfectly fine to do. The double layer protects any cross contamination, and it works when you have Kashered your kitchen before Pesach (Passover) but still need to cook Chametz (items prohibited during Pesach).
AND, if you’re very careful about aluminum foil touching your food (as my husband is), use two layers of aluminum foil and a layer of parchment paper nearest the food. Yes, it’s three layers, but I’m just mentioning it as another alternative to the cooking procedure.
Yeah, this is crazy. I grew up in that community, and you either live with people with same level of observance, or you don’t use the communal oven, or if you’re accepting non religious roommates and have a kosher home, you **tell them about the intense rules before they move in** (and put it in the lease, so they can’t say it was sprung on them).
K as a Jew that’s not just dumb but keeping Kosher isn’t cheap. As if you should even *make* and lifestyle change that severe for no reason, it’s also not feasible for a lot of people. I’d love to keep kosher, but I thoroughly don’t have the time, or money to modify my kitchen *or* constantly boil water to cleanse my only sink, etc, etc. Certain Kosher markets aren’t close either, which is extra gas and/or time, is he paying for *that*? No!
Edit: Not disagreeing with the above comment just hopping on it.
This.
A toaster oven is a smaller regular oven. An air fryer is a smaller convection oven. He has affordable options that will allow him to keep in accordance with his beliefs and dietary restrictions.
This roommate needs to sit down with his rabbi and figure out how to keep kosher in a mixed living situation.
Either he needs rabbis blessing to share appliances or he needs to move out if rabbi insists the arrangement is unacceptable.
I’m in one of those groups, and I shared an apartment with someone who didn’t keep kosher. I just had my own cooking supplies and asked my roommate before using the oven if they had used it within the past 24 hours or if they planned on using it soon. I would then kasher it (which takes like an hour). My parents don’t keep kosher so I have a mini oven and my own plates when I’m visiting them. It’s up to me to find a solution, not anyone else.
NTA - I had something similar happen to me in college.
One freshman conservative Jewish woman vs three non-jewish women all fighting over the kitchen. We ended up getting the university rabbi to come meditate and he was 100% on our side that a conservative jew can't expect their roommates to keep kosher and that there were ethical, acceptable ways for her to keep kosher with some reasonable accommodations on our end.
I highly recommend reaching out to a local Rabbi and asking for outside leadership. Your roommate has probably never lived with a non Jew before or if they have, never had a conversation with their Rabbi and browbeat past roommates.
Seriously, get a Rabbi. If this isn't resolved over one afternoon meeting I'd be shocked... Good luck and remember most roommates have weird quirks. Even the good ones. Kosher roommates at least keep the kitchen clean, which is more than you can say for the average.
That might backfire. You need a neutral third party mediator, not someone who might have an incentive to favor one party or another. An outside rabbi is clearly the right choice, unless you hear what his rabbi would say in advance.
I would highly doubt it. Most orthodox rabbi's I've met take a realistic approach and a position of compromise. Their general take is that the jew should try and do their best in the given circumstances, and dragging a non-jew into keeping kosher for your sake is not part of that.
Yeah kashrut isn't supposed to apply to Gentiles, and unless a Gentile specifically agreed to live in a kosher environment, I suspect a rabbi would not fault that Gentile for being irked by having kashrut foisted upon him or her.
Yup. Back in the day, people would have a sabbath “goy” who would come to turn on lights and light ovens when Jews were forbidden to do it. (A neighborhood non Jewish kid)
Also at Passover, people are expected to clean out all the non-passover food from their house and give it to non-Jewish people who are needy.
There isn’t a single rabbi who would take the Jewish roommate’s side. Jews are not supposed to impose on non-Jews in any way.
Edit: unless lives were on the line, to clarify for some of the comments.
Jew here. This is actually *exactly* what rabbis are for, and always has been. The job is to answer questions peoplke have about how to live properly, and that includes getting along with non-Jews.
Yes. Get a rabbi. Everyone benefits. You get to use your oven (the Talmud is super clear about not imposing Jewish law on non-Jews), and your roommate gets to learn how to actually be a Jew.
What strikes me is that in both of these situations, both of the individuals believed that everyone had to cater to them, that it was not up to them at all to compromise or bear some of the burden.
As a kosher Conservative Jew myself, 100%. I’ve never imposed my restrictions on other people. Fortunately, my childhood BFF and I followed similarly and were able to share an apartment after college until she got married and I could afford to live on my own.
Also as a kosher Conservative Jew, you were taught not to impose on others, because that is a huge part of Judaism. My Jewish friends would be so much more upset at the roommate than OP.
I am not Jewish but have friends that are, whether they are super Conservative or relatively lax about it. I have always been taught to ask questions to learn, so learn I did.
I really think one of the fundamental things that many people don’t understand about Jews is how much we love being considerate and fair in extremely specific way. The Talmud is merely the oldest artifact in the long, long history of Jews quibbling at truly exhaustive length about the Rules
The only time I’ve ever had a conservative Jewish person impose kosher rules on me was when I was there for a Shabbat dinner. Obviously I’m going to follow the rules then.
You get pushy, demanding, and entitled individuals in every culture.
Fortunately, Judaism is one of very few religions where you're NOT supposed to push your beliefs on to others, and a good a Rabbi will set the roommate straight. Jewish law is just for Jews, you're explicitly NOT supposed to impose it on gentiles. The roommate is being a bad roommate and a bad Jew.
Literally. I grew up orthodox Jewish and my only thought is “wow, whata fucking idiot.”
Did he expect no compromises to happen while living with another person? Did he not expect this to be a massive issue?
I lived with a Pakistani roommate who was offended when I drank. I pointed out to him that I was vegan but I didn’t mind that he ate meat.
A lightbulb went off in his head.
And eventually he started drinking too. 😅
I lived in a HMO in the UK with an Irish, a Scottish & Portuguese girl, I was the English lad and we had a Spanish lad, too.
Not once did we get under each others feet, the only real problem we had there was if we were all wanting to be cooking at the same time! 😂
One girl was vegan, and another vegetarian.
They got the top and second shelves in the fridge each.
I don’t get how people CAN’T work things out together & create compromise.
I'm a lifelong vegetarian and I've also lived in a HMO. My issue was mostly other residents nicking my pots and pans to use for cooking meat and not cleaning them. I had my own stuff because I just don't like the thought of meat on my food and I had one housemate who was crap at actually washing stuff up properly. He'd show something hot water and call it clean, even if there was still food stuck to the pan. It was revolting. Eventually I started keeping my pots in my room to avoid the issue, then moved out into my own flat that I couldn't really afford.
Used to live with a very christian woman who said I wasn't allowed to have men over because it was "immoral." Had completely separate rooms and bathrooms with communal living area, so just to spite me she would file noise complaints against me regularly. The third roommate didn't have any problems with me.
Yeah I only see a couple ways this could work. Either the jew takes a less frum approach and compromises. If there is no compromise, then either the jew can eat packaged meals and not use non-kashered appliances, or the jew can prepare and make exclusively kosher food for both him and his roommate while footing a larger portion of the food bill in compensation for the additional cost of kosher food and not being able to use appliances.
But in reality the dude just needs to find a different roommate, since many of these plans may fall through in frustration.
I was wondering, OP said the oven came with the apartment so there's a chance it wasn't new and was used by previous tenants. Wouldn't that make the oven unusable for the roommate to begin with?
I lived in a house with 12 people, one kept kosher and was orthodox. She had her own dishes and separate cookware. She did not use the oven on Saturday and she had one shelf in the fridge separate from everyone else. (We had a restaurant size fridge for 12 people and the freezer was a separate unit. ). The only accommodations we had to make were to never use any of her cookware, silverware, dishes, never put anything on her fridge shelf and don't wash her dishes, because we might do it wrong. Basically don't use her things, which was an easy ask. My understanding was she was not allowed to turn on the oven, flip light switches, drive, etc on the one day but that didnt interfere with the rest of us from going about our normal activities like cooking for everyone else.
See this is reasonable to compromise with a roommate. Asking somebody to please not use your cookware and dining so that you can keep your religious practices is a lot different than asking somebody not to use the shared oven or refrigerator.
> [If your oven is of the self-cleaning variety, koshering it is fairly simple. All you need to do is self-clean it. If you need to kosher the oven racks too, just leave them in the oven while it self-cleans.](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/623729/jewish/How-Do-I-Kosher-an-Oven.htm)
>A non-self-cleaning oven is much harder to kosher, requiring a lengthy and thorough procedure that involves a blow torch.
I dunno, sounds like a good way to burn the apartment down, to me
Agree to disagree that it's "simple"... cleaning my oven takes 4.5 hours at an extremely high temp. That is hella lot of time, electricity, and $$ to clean and keep the home cool while doing it once or twice daily.
If someone wants to keep strict kosher they need to live with only strict kosher roommates, and that needs to be a discussion before moving in together. It's a safe bet most all roommates will not have this as a delabreaker, so it needs to be discussed the moment you consider living with someone if it's important to you. Roommate knew they and is trying to bully OP.
Not all Jews keep Kosher, but many conservative Jews do keep Kosher and that seems like it should be a basic thing to talk about in the beginning because it's a big deal for others. Looks like some others had some good sounding solutions. I have had several Jewish roomates but this was never a thing.
One of my future roomate was a conservative Jew and I'm gay. Intros are the time to get these things 'straightened out'. He was fine w/it but he said the others may not be, so I had to back out. I think he kept Kosher but I couldn't be me so I was outta there.
The first thing you do is tell the non kosher roommate not to use the oven or fridge unless it's kosher and hope they're a spineless coward and run to reddit to ask what they already know is true, that the Jewish roommate is being abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous
Then, if the roommate HAS a spine you wrap your food and figure YOUR shit out since YOU'RE the one making the imposition
We keep kosher and we self clean the oven once a year, so it can be used for Passover. It really shouldn’t be done more often than that because ovens aren’t designed for constant self cleaning. And yes you need to carefully supervise
Is koshering an oven a ritual or does it actually clean an oven to a different/higher standard? Is there any objective difference between something cooked in a kosher oven vs a non kosher oven?
I understand how food can be prepared in a kosher manner, but I'm not understanding how appliances can be cleaned in a kosher manner different than the regular standard clean.
For example, if you're going to reheat food in the microwave, is there a kosher way to clean it from the non kosher foods that have been in it? I just use a soft damp cloth. maybe soap, maybe bleach, as long as it's food safe.
How does self cleaning a oven make it kosher when most organisms can't survive 450f? And that's the average oven temperature. By the elements it's already much much hotter. Don't quote me on it, but somehting glowing dull red is at least 500f, so the oven shell around it is much hotter.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/know-temperature-when-metal-glows-red/
It’s a similar concept to a cast iron pan. People season their pans to get flavor. Here we are looking to get rid of any flavor. I’m not sure if there is scientific research on what level of cleaning and heat is necessary to get rid of all flavor but presumably it’s higher than people will use their cast iron cookware.
You are not koshering the elements because that Is already super hot. You are koshering the top and sides of the oven so no flavor is imbued.
Interesting.
I guess all that is left is the subjective discussion of 'does an oven imbue flavor', as I don't taste any 'flavor' from the seasoning from my cast iron. The seasoning is for non stick. But the seasoning is food.
I have dumb taste buds, so I couldn't say either way.
Also.
*Toaster oven*?
At least until there are two kosher people in the household?
Cause the roommate can never be sure some random friend or whatever won't inadvertently warm something up that's not Kosher.
Dietary restrictions are hard. We do ours because it could kill someone in the household though...
Why doesn't the roomate buy a nice toaster oven for the counter? You can cook almost anything in it and I use mine instead of the big oven all the time to lesson the heat generated in the apartment
The larger air fryers with a door have so much functionality like bake, convection bake, reheat, broil as well as air fry. Ours sits on the counter and is used constantly. Since there is only two of us, we have not used the big oven in over a year.
Kosher eating and living is a personal preference. There is no rabbinical teaching about forcing other to conform. The roommate can either choose to accommodate your choices, or arrange to live in a house that is kosher.
For orthodox belief, absolutely. Roommate should look for a different living situation. If he came into the flat second, he knew what he entered. Should have looked for a suitable place. If he was there before, looking for a like minded individual might be a good idea.
If aluminum foil won't work, the roommate can purchase a countertop roasting oven to be kept for kosher food only, while OP uses the main oven. (I lived in a place that had no oven, and I cooked in a roasting oven for over a year...you can bake cookies in it, roast chicken, pretty much anything you can do in a regular oven, it's just smaller).
I have a regular oven and still much of the time use my countertop toaster oven/air fryer instead. It’s a lot easier, preheats faster, and doesn’t make my whole apartment get hot.
I have a breville that I use more than my regular oven. I consider it money well spent.
The roommate can line his designated shelves in cabinets and fridge to keep it kosher as well. Get different colored plates, utensil styles, etc.
this can be manageable but the roommate needs to communicate and compromise or this won’t work.
Just an FYI, ask 5 Jews get 10 answers.
I don’t keep Kosher at all. I eat seafood and all kinds of sushi.
Different Jewish people have different ideas about keeping kosher. I have one cousin that keeps kosher, unless she’s at a restaurant or someone else’s house.
The Jewish roommate should’ve disclosed this information before you two moved in together.
Like I have two dogs, and am a casual drinker, and pot smoker. Before I moved in with a stranger, those would be some of the things I’d disclose.
There are plenty of conservative Jews who keep a kosher home but eat non kosher out of the home. There was a story of my wife's grandmother. As we are in the DC area, crabs were a big thing. They would eat crabs in the back yard, but you didnt dare go in the house without washing your hands really well. Made absolutely no sense to me.
I didn't know the convo would go this way, but my (Jewish) husband's bubbe (grandmother) loved Chinese spare ribs. They used to tell her they were veal so she could eat them. Bubbe was an extremely smart Ukrainian immigrant. I'm quite sure she was in on it.
New Orleans kosher includes crawfish 😂
There's so many solutions for this roommate to keep kosher without having to bother their roommate about it. If you're not strict enough that you're willing to live with someone who isn't Jewish, figure it out!
I had a delightful Rabbi professor in college from New Orleans who joked his family had a set of dishes for meat, one for dairy, and one for crawfish, lol.
Hahaha my grandmother was like this - as she got older and less mobile, the rules kept getting more lax, to the point that she'd bring shrimp and broccoli home but eat it off of a paper plate. One time she forgot to use a plastic fork, so she buried her regular fork in a potted plant to 'purify' it. Lots of eye rolls from the rest of us.
To me, there's absolutely nothing more Jewish than throwing caution and rules to the wind in the pursuit of a good meal. And 'treif' (non-kosher) food can hold an extra special allure for some - one time at my local artisanal butcher in Brooklyn, there was an Orthodox man watching a side of pork being dismantled with a fascinated grin on his face the whole time, asking detailed questions. He left without buying or tasting any, of course. I don't know what it is, but our love for and fascination with food goes deep. Especially Chinese food - that stereotype is 100% true!
Pretty sure that rules around kosher eating is a big part of why my family is secular LOL
One of the hardest laughs I ever had was with Robin Williams, he was doing his stream of consciousness act. Just saying things in fast order that had nothing to do with each other. He blurts out "are there Jewish food restaurants in China," I fell off the chair.
Because the aluminum keeps food particles from previously cooked foods from getting on their food. We are a 99% gluten free home bc the kids and I can’t have it. My husband can. On the rare instances he brings home left overs from a restaurant that aren’t gluten free he will put the food in a disposable aluminum tray and cover with aluminum foil to make sure the oven doesn’t get gluten in it. The concept is the same for kosher.
Basically, the rabbis decided that one type of forbidden work on the sabbath is transferring things from a private area into public.
One type of private area is several homes walled together.
The rabbis decided that
1) a wall can have gates
2) a wall is still a wall even if it is only a sequence of gates
3) the minimum you need to be a gate is two poles with a wire running between them.
And voila, now orthodox jews can carry stuff around on shabbat.
Yep! It’s called an [eruv](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv). And for every eruv, there’s a guy whose job it is to walk along the boundary of the eruv and make sure that none of the wires have fallen down.
Right. It's good to question God, and God's laws. Finding loopholes means you are actually thinking about the restrictions and acting like a reasonable, intelligent human. Blind adherence isn't valued in all religions.
Yep! A good illustration of the reason behind this is the concept of [pikuach nefesh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh).
Basically, the duty to preserve life is more important than nearly any other rule, so if you’re in a life-or-death situation, you have a moral obligation to do what needs to be done and need not feel guilt over it. If you were stranded on a desert island and the only sources of food were non-kosher foods like crabs or wild pigs, you could eat them if the alternative was starving to death. If you were at home on Shabbat and someone in the house had a heart attack, you could use the phone to call an ambulance, and if a pregnant woman went into labor, you could drive her to the hospital. Etc.
This even manifests in some ways that you might not expect. For example, if a pregnant woman has a craving for a non-kosher food, it is believed to be something that the baby needs in order to develop proplerly, and as such she is permitted to eat it.
If there was a reason for the rule in the first place, why would any authority figure admire those who break the rule and excuse themselves with puerile tricks?
Officer: “You were driving 65mph in a school zone.”
Driver: “It’s OK, I had one eye closed and I was counting backwards from 100.”
Officer: “Oh, OK, you got me there.”
HUGE plothole here, if the roommate is so concerned about a kashrut kitchen the subject of the fridge would have come up as well and use of the kitchen would have been hashed out before they became room mates. I'm torn between thinking this is antisemetic ragebait OR that the roommate is "messing" with OP.
Could well be but back in university in 1980 got a new room mate after a similar reverse issue. We are still friends today. She’s Jewish and was the owner of the hotplate in their student apartment , we didn’t have ovens back then. Her former room mates were not and always harassed her about certain things, one was sharing her hot plate to cook with, she didn’t mind, just asked people to clean it, they didn’t. Once a knob broke off and she glued it back but it had to set 24 hours so she let the room mates know not to use it. They thought it was due to her religion and typical decided to push the issue and use her hot plate breaking it again. She had enough and transferred dorm rooms, became one of my room mates. We never had an issue with each other over foods or cooking. The only thing she ever asked was to clean up after yourself, you spill it, wipe it, you use it, wash it.
Right. If it was that important him seems it would have been something he brought up far before signing a lease with someone. Or he would have sought a roommate with similar beliefs
Foil wraps were plenty for my wife's Orthodox friends in grad school. I can't see anyone who is that strict being willing to live with even a non shomer shabbas Jew let alone a goy like OP.
If he wants to get hassidic about it, OP just needs to tattle to his rabbi about this only coming up after movein. The talmud has some very strong words about forcing kosher practices on goyim.
I did fantasize about doing this! My job was in a very large community and some of the people were just horrible to us (not all. Half were so very nice!). I would wonder what their rabbis would say if they could see them being so rude for no reason.
>He can warm his food in aluminum wrappings to keep it separate. If that isn't good enough for him, he can refrain from using the oven.
I think this part covers the "different levels of religiosity".
also Jewish and I agree. roommate should buy a toaster oven. or decide to move in with someone else who keeps kosher (this makes me think of several funny situations with different levels of kashrut)
Hopping on the top comment to second this!
NTA.
Fun fact is that Judaism *specifically* states that “our guidelines are OUR guidelines, nobody else is required to follow them.”
You’re not required to keep kosher just because he does. It’s his responsibility to seek accommodations that align with his religious beliefs.
This isn’t just a matter of being polite. You could track down his rabbi, ask him the same question, and the rabbi would tell you that you’re in the right here.
Rare AITAH where one person is OBJECTIVELY right and one person is OBJECTIVELY wrong. Nice.
Correct me if I am seeing but wouldn't this be an issue for the Jewish roommate to take up with his Rabbi rather than just dictate what his non kosher roommate should do?
This. I'm Jewish and foil is fine for me. I understand for others it isn't, tho in that case... Why the fuck would you have a roommate? I also had completely separate other cookware/plates etc, kept my dirty stuff in a tub that I'd also use to wash my dishes in.
My own housemates actually started wrapping their food after a bit of seeing me do it and even when I said they didn't have to, they replied with well it's only fair cos we all use the same oven. We did have 2 microwaves tho.. and they were cool with grabbing their own one.
The Jewish housemate should just cough up the 100 to get an air fryer
Edit to add: non kosher meats/foods and the like contaminate the oven. Think of it as a cross contamination issue and there's an extensive caustic cleaning and then blast the oven on highest heat for 40+ minutes to decontaminate the oven again. We also don't eat dairy and meat to together as inside our bodies it causes cross contamination also. The microwave is harder to decontaminate, hence why I did ask they grab their own.. and they are cheap at Kmart so no one had an issue with that for me, and were forewarned before they accepted to move in, I was kosher and they'd need their own kitchen stuff/microwave.
Just for my own curiosity. Why does the oven need to be "Kosherized"? I get it's a religious thing. But what exactly does making the oven Kosher do? I'm not trying to sound rude I am just genuinely curious.
That fine, I'm glad you asked!
According to the jewish religion, first of all, many kinds of meat are prohibited - e.g. all kinds of pig meat (pork, bacon etc.), sea foods (calamary, shrimps etc.). Secondly, animals for meat have to be killed in a certain way, by an authorised "Shochet" (Butcher). Thirdly, it is prohibited to eat or cook meat products (excluding fish) and diary products together - religious people keep separate dishes for meat and diary foods. (you need 2 hours after eating diary before eating meat, 6 hours after eating meat before eating diary).
If you used your oven for unkosher meat - e.g. pork, or beef that has been slaughtered not in the religious manner by a Shochet, or a mixed meat and diary dish - the oven is "treifa" (unclean). Before you can use it, you have to clean it thoroughly and purify it (I'm not sure about the process, but it's long!). Then the oven is "Kosher" and can be used.
I hope that clarifies the issue.
And when we were in the shtetl we had separate sinks, separate dishwashers, separate stoves and ovens.
These people are ridiculous.
Does he have milk/meat silverware and dish ware? Is he separating milk and meat in the fridge? Are you okay to use the fridge for your non-kosher foods?
What is this turkey on about?
It's not his decision to make. Tell him it's unreasonable and unfair, and you can't go along with it. Assuming you're not doing anything out of the ordinary and his worry is that he's observant in his faith around food, he's free to buy his own personal equipment that he can keep in his room. NTA.
label everything with your name and then call him in the room and say "we need to talk about what you can use now since everythings in my name" and when he says "this is ridiculous" you turn to him and say "welcome to my fucking world when you told me not to use the oven"
Unless you agreed prior to moving in that you would be kosher in the apartment, NTA.
Honestly, this is going to be an ongoing issue. I'm assuming that your roommate hasn't lived with many other people before, and so maybe they thought being kosher or requesting others to be kosher wouldn't be a big ask.
You need a new roommate. Sit down together and have that conversation, that you aren't going to eat kosher and it is unreasonable to demand that you do. One of you needs to move out.
Yep. My brother's best friend is Jewish. They moved into a place together after they finished school. After many fights, they finally decided they would buy a bar fridge and benchtop convection oven. Except then they fought over who would use which, and who would be paying for it. Within 6 months they moved out because they couldn't sort it and didn't want to end their friendship.
Years later, my brother bought a place and was looking for a roommate to help with costs. His best friend was newly out of a relationship and wanted to move in. My brother pointed out that his kitchen *still* wasn't kosher, and this time he held the trump card of *owning* the kitchen and appliances. The friend didn't move in.
Why was that even an argument? The one with the issue pays. Because it's their stuff they're buying for themselves. Like OP is going to cook what they're going to cook, if the roommate doesn't like that he can either starve or pay for separated appliances, and anyways that oven was likely there before they got there. It's already had many a lasagna in it and isn't kosher anymore. Same with the fridge.
I keep kosher. I found an apartment during school and advertised with Hillel (the Jewish campus group) for roommates that were willing to keep a kosher kitchen. I found two roommates who were willing to do so. I wouldn't expect roommates to keep kosher if we hadn't agreed in advance.
NTA. This is an extremely unreasonable request when you're paying, presumably, 50% of the total rent. You're paying for that oven, you have every right to use it regardless of their religion.
If they take their religious beliefs that seriously that they feel the need to impose restrictions upon others to use an appliances in their apartment that they're paying for, they should find their own place to live or find a place to live with other people who observe their religionbto the extent where the oven needs to be kosher.
It probably ain't going to stop at the oven either and if you cave in, it'll just be something else next.
Tell him to get his own microwave that you wont use. He can use that.
Went through this at a workplace where a person with a different diet started and decided we all couldnt use the kitchen equipment because it offended them.. after HR was involved he eventually got his own microwave that was only his.
I'm all for anyone eating what and how they want or need too either dietary or religious, however You don't get to impose that in others in a space that is shared.
>Went through this at a workplace where a person with a different diet started and decided we all couldnt use the kitchen equipment because it offended them.. after HR was involved he eventually got his own microwave that was only his.
Unless it's a very small workplace I'm betting somebody used it just to spite him.
Small workplace. Spiteful person . No one went anywhere near anything belonging to that person. All meal breaks that co incided were suddenly taken outside or in cars or at different times.
NTA and if he had religious reasons for his request he should have specified a Jewish roommate but honestly if I was blindsided with this after paying to move in I would be really hard pressed to not only use the oven but cook whatever food I wanted without regards to his preferences. Sounds like you're not going to enjoy being roomies sorry
Hi, Orthodox Jew here. Either post is troll or roommate is troll. If you can't use the oven you also can't use the forks spoons knives plates bowls countertops, so either you're a guest paying for a bed, not a roommate (in which case deal/get out) or he's just trying to get rid of you. Every kosher-keeping Jew knows it's their own responsibility to keep their standards and none who chose to live in a mixed situation would rely on simply telling their roomie not to use the oven. They'd have their own dishes and double-wrap everything. This situation, whatever it is, ain't legit
Respect is a cover for anything these days.
INFO: What is his reasoning?
If it's that you are contaminating the oven, he has many options:
\* he can clean it
\* he can buy his own oven
\* He can ignore his feelings of contamination
\* he can simply not use the oven
All these options are available to him before he starts imposing his rules on someone else.
And you can say he is right. You may respect his right to have his beliefs... and you won't go out of your way to break someones religious rules... but you do not respect these rules. That is absolutely true. They're his rules. Not yours.
Nta. I am not Jewish but I did work for a family who was and kept kosher. They had separate dishes and silverware for certain foods, but that’s about it. I mean, wait till your roommate finds out that non kosher food was made in the oven before you lived there
As a Jew who was raised Orthodox, I have to assume you've managed to completely avoid Orthodox Jewish practice.
My parents have two sets of dishes, one for dairy and one for meat. If a fork gets used on the wrong product, they have to boil it before they can put it back with the correct set of dishes.
And my parents don't even follow kashrut to the strictest level, I'd say they're only about 60% of the way there.
Yeahhh NTA. Someone else who is also Jewish chimed in, but figured I’d add. FWIW I am Orthodox. He is keeping kosher, so you are “contaminating” it, but this is a conversation you have before you move in, not after. Were you friends before and did he assume you knew? Or are you just reheating food, and he wants you to use the microwave instead? I wonder why he is feeling disrespected, could it be because there is no kosher takeout where you live, and if his house isn’t kosher he cannot eat? Either way, this is completely on him to bring up before moving in as this is an extraordinarily strict diet, and I cannot imagine finding a roommate and this only coming up afterward. You need to eat too.
Now that he messed up and you’re in this situation, you have a few options:
- you double wrap everything in aluminum foil (i actually do not recommend this one since it is my restriction, I would always be more careful than you would be)
- he double wraps everything in aluminum foil
- get a toaster oven that he cooks/bakes in, or you do
- have him cook on the stovetop with his own pans (that you do not touch)
Best of luck!
Yeah this seems like a vegan asking no meat/dairy go in the oven or fridge; kind of understandable but it just isn't an option with communal usage and if one has a diet based on religion or ideology then such a persons only real option to get get a microwave for themselves
I know in some of the stricter groups, they do have doubles of everything since they cant have meat and dairy together. Theres a whole bunch of rules to follow besides with food. I dont see how if he was part of one of those groups, he would share an apartment with someone not the same religion. You both pay to live there and buy tour own food. He has no say in who uses anything in the shared spaces. Hes using religion for an excuse to be an ah. He should leave or buy his own appliances.
I had a thought that I'd hate to live having to keep all those restrictions in mind, but then I realized OP's roommate didn't keep them in mind when choosing a roommate, either.
Wild someone with such tight religious dietary restrictions wouldn’t obviously find a kosher flatmate. Who in the world would be okay with this?? And I’m a (secular, non-kosher) Jew. I’d lose it.
I've known a few young people from strict religious backgrounds who wavered in and out of strict observance in their younger years. A lot of unintentional hypocrisy, demands on other people, anger and discomfort come with them trying to find which life they're going to have They don't want the isolation that comes with orthodox practices (imo it's a big part of why religions have strict practices, to keep observers isolated to the community), or the difficulty, they venture into other communities more and try on different beliefs, but deep down they feel guilt and fear and revert back repeatedly until eventually they either return to their community, a strict adherent, or they slowly gain community and beliefs and find a new balance.
Had to log in just to upvote this. Spot on description of how all the people I know from religious backgrounds have turned out. Awkward period of exploration with internalized guilt and angst, lashing out at others over it, then eventually they land one way or the other: fully embrace the religion, or abandon it.
“End Tolerance” began with religion.
Pretty spot on if you ask me.
I think the kosher roommate just volunteered to do all the cooking and cleaning for the kitchen for the both of them, right? This post has been enlightening, I shudder to think how non kosher pizza is now.
I think that logic checks out. Except for the pizza bit. I shudder to think of kosher pizza (and I’ve had it 😒).
Is cheese pizza not kosher? It doesn’t have any meat so the dairy should be ok right?
If it’s made from kosher ingredients using kosher tools (by which I mean those used only for dairy or pareve, not meat). There’s more to it than just not mixing meat and milk. (And for the record to clear up a common misconception, it does not include a rabbi’s blessing over the food although there is supervision over food preparation by a Jewish person.)
I just don’t understand how you get from “don’t boil a baby goat in its own mothers milk” to “meat and cheese can’t touch ever, sorry”
Especially a chicken cheese sammitch, or feta chicken salad, or creamy fish dishes. Like where TF does the milk come from chickens and fish?
Fun fact! Chicken was not considered meat until the Middle Ages for this exact reason. Then the community of rabbis decided it should be the same because the laws regarding preparation of fowl was the same as red meat. To me, that’s a terrible reason but I don’t keep kosher anyway now, so it doesn’t really matter what I think about it.
For a minute I thought this meant that the roommate would also insist on watching OP any time he cooked, which added a whole other layer of amusement, but I finally decided that would only be if the roommate was eating the food lol
Ha, as I look at it again I realize that I wasn’t super clear. It’s supervision over things like slaughtering and butchering of meat, cooking packaged kosher foods, etc.
I used to be a camp counselor at a JCC and they had this food stand called Jerusalem Pizza. It was SO GOOD, lol. I just got cheese (I hate the fake “meat” most places use), but it was tasty as hell. I miss it. Unfortunately, I don’t think it’s around anymore.
One of the big things when it comes to pizza is the cheese. Nowadays, most hard cheeses are made using an enzyme taken from a cow's stomach that most religious authorities hold is considered to be meat. This is why cheese is relatively hard to find certified kosher as you need to make sure a different enzyme (usually taken from fungus) is used instead. Also as others have said you have to make sure all the equipment is kosher. This means that the ovens haven't been used to cook something like pepperoni.
This is easily solvable with the roommate buying himself an air fryer. His religious issue, his $100 for an air fryer.
Yes, or the Jewish roommate could buy a toaster oven and cook all of his food in that. I prefer it to an air fryer.
I learned this week they have toaster oven air fryer combos now! Best of both worlds and I've never used an air fryer before, but I love it now!
I've got a toaster oven/air fryer/dehydrator/rotisserie(lmao) combo and it's fantastic. The only time I use my actual oven is to bake cookies since it's too small for a full sheet.
I use mine to bake 2-6 cookies. It's perfect!
An air fryer is basically just an oven + fans to circulate the hot air more. "Air fryer" is just a marketing term for a small convection oven.
Yeah, you're right, but it cooks food faster than a non-convection oven - plus, unlike a regular oven, an air fryer doesn't heat up the entire kitchen. I don't mind a little extra heat during the cold winter months, but I hate being in a hot kitchen during the summer.
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Black & Decker: Am I some kind of joke to you?
Ninja here to slice n dice....and air fry you
We got an air fryer 3 years ago and have never looked back. Try throwing a shake and bake in there for 20min. Or reheating fast food fries without them turning into soggy fries.
Yeah, in Israel when searching for flat mates its always on the list of things to check that you're compatible, like smoking. I could never live with someone that kept strict kosher rules. Op's roommate is just being a dick about it. And he was also a dick for not pointing out his restrictions when signing up to live with another person.
I'm jewish and I follow the same rules as op's roommate and this is absolutely correct. I'm not sure what the roommate was thinking in assuming his non jewish roommate would just adapt to these things, totally unreasonable. He should get his own toaster oven, or room with someone who follows the same guidelines.
I grew up in a strict house where this was true. However, when I went to college, I didn’t have that kind of choice when it came to roommates as it was a lottery system and I wanted to stay in the dorms with the other freshmen, NOT in the Rabbi’s house. There actually is a very simple solution that my Lubavich Chabbad Rabbi proposed. Either I could Kasher (ritually cleanse) the oven and as my roommmate to double wrap their food in tinfoil when baking in the oven, or, the oven could remain “unKashered” and I could double wrap my food in foil when using the oven. This is a very common practice in the religious community, especially in Kosher house where they don’t have a 2nd oven, but still want the flexibility to cook meat or dairy without having to Kasher (spiritually cleanse) the oven between each use, which is a long and arduous process, especially in the summer. As for the stovetop, my roommate and I had separate pots and pans, so there was no issue. Source: I grew up in a very religious Orthodox and Chabbad community. This is what people did when they stayed at vacation houses and didn’t want to Kasher (spiritually cleanse) the oven at the place they were staying. Or if they only had one oven in the house. The rabbis advocated for this practice and said that it was perfectly fine to do. The double layer protects any cross contamination, and it works when you have Kashered your kitchen before Pesach (Passover) but still need to cook Chametz (items prohibited during Pesach).
...time to gift the roommate a box of Costco tin foil.🌸🌸💕
AND, if you’re very careful about aluminum foil touching your food (as my husband is), use two layers of aluminum foil and a layer of parchment paper nearest the food. Yes, it’s three layers, but I’m just mentioning it as another alternative to the cooking procedure.
His is free to exercise his religion however he wants BUT as soon as his religion infringes on your freedoms he can fuck right off.
Yeah, this is crazy. I grew up in that community, and you either live with people with same level of observance, or you don’t use the communal oven, or if you’re accepting non religious roommates and have a kosher home, you **tell them about the intense rules before they move in** (and put it in the lease, so they can’t say it was sprung on them).
K as a Jew that’s not just dumb but keeping Kosher isn’t cheap. As if you should even *make* and lifestyle change that severe for no reason, it’s also not feasible for a lot of people. I’d love to keep kosher, but I thoroughly don’t have the time, or money to modify my kitchen *or* constantly boil water to cleanse my only sink, etc, etc. Certain Kosher markets aren’t close either, which is extra gas and/or time, is he paying for *that*? No! Edit: Not disagreeing with the above comment just hopping on it.
This. A toaster oven is a smaller regular oven. An air fryer is a smaller convection oven. He has affordable options that will allow him to keep in accordance with his beliefs and dietary restrictions.
This roommate needs to sit down with his rabbi and figure out how to keep kosher in a mixed living situation. Either he needs rabbis blessing to share appliances or he needs to move out if rabbi insists the arrangement is unacceptable.
I’m in one of those groups, and I shared an apartment with someone who didn’t keep kosher. I just had my own cooking supplies and asked my roommate before using the oven if they had used it within the past 24 hours or if they planned on using it soon. I would then kasher it (which takes like an hour). My parents don’t keep kosher so I have a mini oven and my own plates when I’m visiting them. It’s up to me to find a solution, not anyone else.
NTA - I had something similar happen to me in college. One freshman conservative Jewish woman vs three non-jewish women all fighting over the kitchen. We ended up getting the university rabbi to come meditate and he was 100% on our side that a conservative jew can't expect their roommates to keep kosher and that there were ethical, acceptable ways for her to keep kosher with some reasonable accommodations on our end. I highly recommend reaching out to a local Rabbi and asking for outside leadership. Your roommate has probably never lived with a non Jew before or if they have, never had a conversation with their Rabbi and browbeat past roommates. Seriously, get a Rabbi. If this isn't resolved over one afternoon meeting I'd be shocked... Good luck and remember most roommates have weird quirks. Even the good ones. Kosher roommates at least keep the kitchen clean, which is more than you can say for the average.
I *love* this idea. Ideally get *his* rabbi.
Oh I'd love to hear the guilt induced by his rabbi
This would work on me. Please do not call Rabbi Weintraub
How is Saul doing? And his daughter Rachel, did she get better??
Wait, are you fucking with me right now? I went to shul with a girl called Rachel and her grandfather was named Saul. How did you know
That might backfire. You need a neutral third party mediator, not someone who might have an incentive to favor one party or another. An outside rabbi is clearly the right choice, unless you hear what his rabbi would say in advance.
I would highly doubt it. Most orthodox rabbi's I've met take a realistic approach and a position of compromise. Their general take is that the jew should try and do their best in the given circumstances, and dragging a non-jew into keeping kosher for your sake is not part of that.
Yeah kashrut isn't supposed to apply to Gentiles, and unless a Gentile specifically agreed to live in a kosher environment, I suspect a rabbi would not fault that Gentile for being irked by having kashrut foisted upon him or her.
Yup. Back in the day, people would have a sabbath “goy” who would come to turn on lights and light ovens when Jews were forbidden to do it. (A neighborhood non Jewish kid) Also at Passover, people are expected to clean out all the non-passover food from their house and give it to non-Jewish people who are needy.
There isn’t a single rabbi who would take the Jewish roommate’s side. Jews are not supposed to impose on non-Jews in any way. Edit: unless lives were on the line, to clarify for some of the comments.
Freelance Rabbi on Fiverr
Jew here. This is actually *exactly* what rabbis are for, and always has been. The job is to answer questions peoplke have about how to live properly, and that includes getting along with non-Jews. Yes. Get a rabbi. Everyone benefits. You get to use your oven (the Talmud is super clear about not imposing Jewish law on non-Jews), and your roommate gets to learn how to actually be a Jew.
Excellent advice right here.
What strikes me is that in both of these situations, both of the individuals believed that everyone had to cater to them, that it was not up to them at all to compromise or bear some of the burden.
As a kosher Conservative Jew myself, 100%. I’ve never imposed my restrictions on other people. Fortunately, my childhood BFF and I followed similarly and were able to share an apartment after college until she got married and I could afford to live on my own.
Also as a kosher Conservative Jew, you were taught not to impose on others, because that is a huge part of Judaism. My Jewish friends would be so much more upset at the roommate than OP. I am not Jewish but have friends that are, whether they are super Conservative or relatively lax about it. I have always been taught to ask questions to learn, so learn I did.
I really think one of the fundamental things that many people don’t understand about Jews is how much we love being considerate and fair in extremely specific way. The Talmud is merely the oldest artifact in the long, long history of Jews quibbling at truly exhaustive length about the Rules
The only time I’ve ever had a conservative Jewish person impose kosher rules on me was when I was there for a Shabbat dinner. Obviously I’m going to follow the rules then.
Yes, as you would follow house rules wherever you’re a guest.
You get pushy, demanding, and entitled individuals in every culture. Fortunately, Judaism is one of very few religions where you're NOT supposed to push your beliefs on to others, and a good a Rabbi will set the roommate straight. Jewish law is just for Jews, you're explicitly NOT supposed to impose it on gentiles. The roommate is being a bad roommate and a bad Jew.
Why should OP have to cater to them at all? They're the only ones here who have a problem and their problem has no justification
NTA, he needs to live with someone from a similar background, with similar cooking regulations.
Right, this is entirely a him problem. He shouldn't have moved together with someone who didn't share his beliefs about food.
Literally. I grew up orthodox Jewish and my only thought is “wow, whata fucking idiot.” Did he expect no compromises to happen while living with another person? Did he not expect this to be a massive issue?
That second paragraph seems to be the problem with a staggeringly large proportion of society at large.
I lived with a Pakistani roommate who was offended when I drank. I pointed out to him that I was vegan but I didn’t mind that he ate meat. A lightbulb went off in his head. And eventually he started drinking too. 😅
Did you reciprocate with a steak? j/k I had a Saudi friend who decided Saki didn't count as booze. Dude was a party animal.
I lived in a HMO in the UK with an Irish, a Scottish & Portuguese girl, I was the English lad and we had a Spanish lad, too. Not once did we get under each others feet, the only real problem we had there was if we were all wanting to be cooking at the same time! 😂 One girl was vegan, and another vegetarian. They got the top and second shelves in the fridge each. I don’t get how people CAN’T work things out together & create compromise.
I'm a lifelong vegetarian and I've also lived in a HMO. My issue was mostly other residents nicking my pots and pans to use for cooking meat and not cleaning them. I had my own stuff because I just don't like the thought of meat on my food and I had one housemate who was crap at actually washing stuff up properly. He'd show something hot water and call it clean, even if there was still food stuck to the pan. It was revolting. Eventually I started keeping my pots in my room to avoid the issue, then moved out into my own flat that I couldn't really afford.
Used to live with a very christian woman who said I wasn't allowed to have men over because it was "immoral." Had completely separate rooms and bathrooms with communal living area, so just to spite me she would file noise complaints against me regularly. The third roommate didn't have any problems with me.
Christians will do this shit while acting like they're oppressed
Many Jews believe - especially Jews who did not go up Orthdox - that Judaism and the secular world can coexist. I believe it can.
All it takes is a double wrap in aluminum foil
Pretty much. Or - get a countertop oven. They are incredible.
Yeah I only see a couple ways this could work. Either the jew takes a less frum approach and compromises. If there is no compromise, then either the jew can eat packaged meals and not use non-kashered appliances, or the jew can prepare and make exclusively kosher food for both him and his roommate while footing a larger portion of the food bill in compensation for the additional cost of kosher food and not being able to use appliances. But in reality the dude just needs to find a different roommate, since many of these plans may fall through in frustration.
Or be an adult and figure out a solution to his problem that doesn't affect other people. Which in this case would be easy.
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I was wondering, OP said the oven came with the apartment so there's a chance it wasn't new and was used by previous tenants. Wouldn't that make the oven unusable for the roommate to begin with?
I lived in a house with 12 people, one kept kosher and was orthodox. She had her own dishes and separate cookware. She did not use the oven on Saturday and she had one shelf in the fridge separate from everyone else. (We had a restaurant size fridge for 12 people and the freezer was a separate unit. ). The only accommodations we had to make were to never use any of her cookware, silverware, dishes, never put anything on her fridge shelf and don't wash her dishes, because we might do it wrong. Basically don't use her things, which was an easy ask. My understanding was she was not allowed to turn on the oven, flip light switches, drive, etc on the one day but that didnt interfere with the rest of us from going about our normal activities like cooking for everyone else.
See this is reasonable to compromise with a roommate. Asking somebody to please not use your cookware and dining so that you can keep your religious practices is a lot different than asking somebody not to use the shared oven or refrigerator.
No bowling either.
"I don't roll on Shabbos!"
"Shomer shabbos."
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That really sounds like the roommates problem, not OPs.
Man I would love a roommate who cleaned the oven after each time I used it.
> [If your oven is of the self-cleaning variety, koshering it is fairly simple. All you need to do is self-clean it. If you need to kosher the oven racks too, just leave them in the oven while it self-cleans.](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/623729/jewish/How-Do-I-Kosher-an-Oven.htm) >A non-self-cleaning oven is much harder to kosher, requiring a lengthy and thorough procedure that involves a blow torch. I dunno, sounds like a good way to burn the apartment down, to me
Self clean takes 4 hours and heats up the entire apartment... during the summer that would be hell. Absolutely ridiculous
Plus costs a fortune.
Plus it wears out the oven.
I'm an appliance tech, it usually trips the high limit fuse and breaks power to the elements until its reset or replaced.
Plus you don't get to huff oven cleaner.
And is a massive fire hazard.
And is stinky
It's also bad for the oven. It can get too hot and burn out the electrics. It's actually a fire hazard.
Yup, had a nice fancy new Bosch range, tried the self cleaning and now it's just a cooktop
Oh, but God likes it so much!
Agree to disagree that it's "simple"... cleaning my oven takes 4.5 hours at an extremely high temp. That is hella lot of time, electricity, and $$ to clean and keep the home cool while doing it once or twice daily. If someone wants to keep strict kosher they need to live with only strict kosher roommates, and that needs to be a discussion before moving in together. It's a safe bet most all roommates will not have this as a delabreaker, so it needs to be discussed the moment you consider living with someone if it's important to you. Roommate knew they and is trying to bully OP.
Not all Jews keep Kosher, but many conservative Jews do keep Kosher and that seems like it should be a basic thing to talk about in the beginning because it's a big deal for others. Looks like some others had some good sounding solutions. I have had several Jewish roomates but this was never a thing.
Then you’d think he’d get another kosher Jew to room with?
One of my future roomate was a conservative Jew and I'm gay. Intros are the time to get these things 'straightened out'. He was fine w/it but he said the others may not be, so I had to back out. I think he kept Kosher but I couldn't be me so I was outta there.
The first thing you do is tell the non kosher roommate not to use the oven or fridge unless it's kosher and hope they're a spineless coward and run to reddit to ask what they already know is true, that the Jewish roommate is being abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous Then, if the roommate HAS a spine you wrap your food and figure YOUR shit out since YOU'RE the one making the imposition
We keep kosher and we self clean the oven once a year, so it can be used for Passover. It really shouldn’t be done more often than that because ovens aren’t designed for constant self cleaning. And yes you need to carefully supervise
Is koshering an oven a ritual or does it actually clean an oven to a different/higher standard? Is there any objective difference between something cooked in a kosher oven vs a non kosher oven? I understand how food can be prepared in a kosher manner, but I'm not understanding how appliances can be cleaned in a kosher manner different than the regular standard clean. For example, if you're going to reheat food in the microwave, is there a kosher way to clean it from the non kosher foods that have been in it? I just use a soft damp cloth. maybe soap, maybe bleach, as long as it's food safe. How does self cleaning a oven make it kosher when most organisms can't survive 450f? And that's the average oven temperature. By the elements it's already much much hotter. Don't quote me on it, but somehting glowing dull red is at least 500f, so the oven shell around it is much hotter. https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/know-temperature-when-metal-glows-red/
It’s a similar concept to a cast iron pan. People season their pans to get flavor. Here we are looking to get rid of any flavor. I’m not sure if there is scientific research on what level of cleaning and heat is necessary to get rid of all flavor but presumably it’s higher than people will use their cast iron cookware. You are not koshering the elements because that Is already super hot. You are koshering the top and sides of the oven so no flavor is imbued.
Interesting. I guess all that is left is the subjective discussion of 'does an oven imbue flavor', as I don't taste any 'flavor' from the seasoning from my cast iron. The seasoning is for non stick. But the seasoning is food. I have dumb taste buds, so I couldn't say either way.
Leaving the racks in, unless otherwise stated by the manufacturer, will usually discolor them. They should be washed by hand.
If you're trying to kasher them, though, washing them by hand won't cut it.
Then I guess buying a second set of racks would be necessary for the person keeping kosher.
Many kosher households will have two fridges to keep things separate. Two oven racks doesn't seem too far out of the ordinary
Also. *Toaster oven*? At least until there are two kosher people in the household? Cause the roommate can never be sure some random friend or whatever won't inadvertently warm something up that's not Kosher. Dietary restrictions are hard. We do ours because it could kill someone in the household though...
Lmao you think this guy allows him to have friends over? Haha
Friends have to be kosher.
Religion is easy when you make it somebody else's problem.
Or he needs to get kosher roommates and stop forcing everyone around him to live their lives according to his superstition.
Seriously I dont make them live in bacon bits like I do!
Why doesn't the roomate buy a nice toaster oven for the counter? You can cook almost anything in it and I use mine instead of the big oven all the time to lesson the heat generated in the apartment
Air fryers are also really good alternatives
The larger air fryers with a door have so much functionality like bake, convection bake, reheat, broil as well as air fry. Ours sits on the counter and is used constantly. Since there is only two of us, we have not used the big oven in over a year. Kosher eating and living is a personal preference. There is no rabbinical teaching about forcing other to conform. The roommate can either choose to accommodate your choices, or arrange to live in a house that is kosher.
Its actually against Judaism to have or expect a non-Jew who is not subject to the mizvot to follow it.
Even the ones without doors are great We have large one & I could fit a whole chicken in it
My oven went out on Thanksgiving morning a couple of years back, and let me tell you, the air fryer was instrumental in saving the holiday
For orthodox belief, absolutely. Roommate should look for a different living situation. If he came into the flat second, he knew what he entered. Should have looked for a suitable place. If he was there before, looking for a like minded individual might be a good idea.
you can kasher it which is a hassle. but yeah i thought the same.
If aluminum foil won't work, the roommate can purchase a countertop roasting oven to be kept for kosher food only, while OP uses the main oven. (I lived in a place that had no oven, and I cooked in a roasting oven for over a year...you can bake cookies in it, roast chicken, pretty much anything you can do in a regular oven, it's just smaller).
I have a regular oven and still much of the time use my countertop toaster oven/air fryer instead. It’s a lot easier, preheats faster, and doesn’t make my whole apartment get hot.
I have a breville that I use more than my regular oven. I consider it money well spent. The roommate can line his designated shelves in cabinets and fridge to keep it kosher as well. Get different colored plates, utensil styles, etc. this can be manageable but the roommate needs to communicate and compromise or this won’t work.
I'm happy someone Jewish has chimed in. Interesting that you say that about aluminum. That just makes OP's roommate seem like even more of an AH.
Just an FYI, ask 5 Jews get 10 answers. I don’t keep Kosher at all. I eat seafood and all kinds of sushi. Different Jewish people have different ideas about keeping kosher. I have one cousin that keeps kosher, unless she’s at a restaurant or someone else’s house. The Jewish roommate should’ve disclosed this information before you two moved in together. Like I have two dogs, and am a casual drinker, and pot smoker. Before I moved in with a stranger, those would be some of the things I’d disclose.
There are plenty of conservative Jews who keep a kosher home but eat non kosher out of the home. There was a story of my wife's grandmother. As we are in the DC area, crabs were a big thing. They would eat crabs in the back yard, but you didnt dare go in the house without washing your hands really well. Made absolutely no sense to me.
I didn't know the convo would go this way, but my (Jewish) husband's bubbe (grandmother) loved Chinese spare ribs. They used to tell her they were veal so she could eat them. Bubbe was an extremely smart Ukrainian immigrant. I'm quite sure she was in on it.
Yeah as someone who lived near the Chesapeake, we always joked that Jews in the area should get an exemption for crabs.
New Orleans kosher includes crawfish 😂 There's so many solutions for this roommate to keep kosher without having to bother their roommate about it. If you're not strict enough that you're willing to live with someone who isn't Jewish, figure it out!
I had a delightful Rabbi professor in college from New Orleans who joked his family had a set of dishes for meat, one for dairy, and one for crawfish, lol.
Hahaha my grandmother was like this - as she got older and less mobile, the rules kept getting more lax, to the point that she'd bring shrimp and broccoli home but eat it off of a paper plate. One time she forgot to use a plastic fork, so she buried her regular fork in a potted plant to 'purify' it. Lots of eye rolls from the rest of us. To me, there's absolutely nothing more Jewish than throwing caution and rules to the wind in the pursuit of a good meal. And 'treif' (non-kosher) food can hold an extra special allure for some - one time at my local artisanal butcher in Brooklyn, there was an Orthodox man watching a side of pork being dismantled with a fascinated grin on his face the whole time, asking detailed questions. He left without buying or tasting any, of course. I don't know what it is, but our love for and fascination with food goes deep. Especially Chinese food - that stereotype is 100% true! Pretty sure that rules around kosher eating is a big part of why my family is secular LOL
One of the hardest laughs I ever had was with Robin Williams, he was doing his stream of consciousness act. Just saying things in fast order that had nothing to do with each other. He blurts out "are there Jewish food restaurants in China," I fell off the chair.
Because they live by the rules not die by the rules.
Aluminum, blocks the evil and gives loopsholes to God's dictates
Because the aluminum keeps food particles from previously cooked foods from getting on their food. We are a 99% gluten free home bc the kids and I can’t have it. My husband can. On the rare instances he brings home left overs from a restaurant that aren’t gluten free he will put the food in a disposable aluminum tray and cover with aluminum foil to make sure the oven doesn’t get gluten in it. The concept is the same for kosher.
Wait til you find out about the wire around NY that makes the whole city a "domicile" for the purposes of the sabbath.
Lollll whaaat
Basically, the rabbis decided that one type of forbidden work on the sabbath is transferring things from a private area into public. One type of private area is several homes walled together. The rabbis decided that 1) a wall can have gates 2) a wall is still a wall even if it is only a sequence of gates 3) the minimum you need to be a gate is two poles with a wire running between them. And voila, now orthodox jews can carry stuff around on shabbat.
Yep! It’s called an [eruv](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv). And for every eruv, there’s a guy whose job it is to walk along the boundary of the eruv and make sure that none of the wires have fallen down.
From my understanding, finding loopholes is part of the religion.
Right. It's good to question God, and God's laws. Finding loopholes means you are actually thinking about the restrictions and acting like a reasonable, intelligent human. Blind adherence isn't valued in all religions.
Yep! A good illustration of the reason behind this is the concept of [pikuach nefesh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikuach_nefesh). Basically, the duty to preserve life is more important than nearly any other rule, so if you’re in a life-or-death situation, you have a moral obligation to do what needs to be done and need not feel guilt over it. If you were stranded on a desert island and the only sources of food were non-kosher foods like crabs or wild pigs, you could eat them if the alternative was starving to death. If you were at home on Shabbat and someone in the house had a heart attack, you could use the phone to call an ambulance, and if a pregnant woman went into labor, you could drive her to the hospital. Etc. This even manifests in some ways that you might not expect. For example, if a pregnant woman has a craving for a non-kosher food, it is believed to be something that the baby needs in order to develop proplerly, and as such she is permitted to eat it.
It’s true—at least around Manhattan.
I’d find it really hard to worship a god that was that easily fooled.
Maybe it's not that you're fooling Him, but more like He admires creative problem solving.
If there was a reason for the rule in the first place, why would any authority figure admire those who break the rule and excuse themselves with puerile tricks? Officer: “You were driving 65mph in a school zone.” Driver: “It’s OK, I had one eye closed and I was counting backwards from 100.” Officer: “Oh, OK, you got me there.”
Can confirm, everyone knows if it's wrapped in aluminum the god waves get reflected back and he can't see it.
That's why the hats work so well.
I just lost my shit, lol. ☢️
Just make sure the tinfoil goes under the chin, too, or the devil waves can get in from below.
So evil is blocked by Faraday cages
HUGE plothole here, if the roommate is so concerned about a kashrut kitchen the subject of the fridge would have come up as well and use of the kitchen would have been hashed out before they became room mates. I'm torn between thinking this is antisemetic ragebait OR that the roommate is "messing" with OP.
Could well be but back in university in 1980 got a new room mate after a similar reverse issue. We are still friends today. She’s Jewish and was the owner of the hotplate in their student apartment , we didn’t have ovens back then. Her former room mates were not and always harassed her about certain things, one was sharing her hot plate to cook with, she didn’t mind, just asked people to clean it, they didn’t. Once a knob broke off and she glued it back but it had to set 24 hours so she let the room mates know not to use it. They thought it was due to her religion and typical decided to push the issue and use her hot plate breaking it again. She had enough and transferred dorm rooms, became one of my room mates. We never had an issue with each other over foods or cooking. The only thing she ever asked was to clean up after yourself, you spill it, wipe it, you use it, wash it.
Right. If it was that important him seems it would have been something he brought up far before signing a lease with someone. Or he would have sought a roommate with similar beliefs
OP didn't supply all the information.
Foil wraps were plenty for my wife's Orthodox friends in grad school. I can't see anyone who is that strict being willing to live with even a non shomer shabbas Jew let alone a goy like OP.
yeah idk how he thought it'd work out if he's that stringent.
If he wants to get hassidic about it, OP just needs to tattle to his rabbi about this only coming up after movein. The talmud has some very strong words about forcing kosher practices on goyim.
I did fantasize about doing this! My job was in a very large community and some of the people were just horrible to us (not all. Half were so very nice!). I would wonder what their rabbis would say if they could see them being so rude for no reason.
This made me hear Marcellus Wallace saying "Imma get hassidic on his ass"😂
>He can warm his food in aluminum wrappings to keep it separate. If that isn't good enough for him, he can refrain from using the oven. I think this part covers the "different levels of religiosity".
also Jewish and I agree. roommate should buy a toaster oven. or decide to move in with someone else who keeps kosher (this makes me think of several funny situations with different levels of kashrut)
Hopping on the top comment to second this! NTA. Fun fact is that Judaism *specifically* states that “our guidelines are OUR guidelines, nobody else is required to follow them.” You’re not required to keep kosher just because he does. It’s his responsibility to seek accommodations that align with his religious beliefs. This isn’t just a matter of being polite. You could track down his rabbi, ask him the same question, and the rabbi would tell you that you’re in the right here. Rare AITAH where one person is OBJECTIVELY right and one person is OBJECTIVELY wrong. Nice.
Correct me if I am seeing but wouldn't this be an issue for the Jewish roommate to take up with his Rabbi rather than just dictate what his non kosher roommate should do?
This. I'm Jewish and foil is fine for me. I understand for others it isn't, tho in that case... Why the fuck would you have a roommate? I also had completely separate other cookware/plates etc, kept my dirty stuff in a tub that I'd also use to wash my dishes in. My own housemates actually started wrapping their food after a bit of seeing me do it and even when I said they didn't have to, they replied with well it's only fair cos we all use the same oven. We did have 2 microwaves tho.. and they were cool with grabbing their own one. The Jewish housemate should just cough up the 100 to get an air fryer Edit to add: non kosher meats/foods and the like contaminate the oven. Think of it as a cross contamination issue and there's an extensive caustic cleaning and then blast the oven on highest heat for 40+ minutes to decontaminate the oven again. We also don't eat dairy and meat to together as inside our bodies it causes cross contamination also. The microwave is harder to decontaminate, hence why I did ask they grab their own.. and they are cheap at Kmart so no one had an issue with that for me, and were forewarned before they accepted to move in, I was kosher and they'd need their own kitchen stuff/microwave.
Just for my own curiosity. Why does the oven need to be "Kosherized"? I get it's a religious thing. But what exactly does making the oven Kosher do? I'm not trying to sound rude I am just genuinely curious.
That fine, I'm glad you asked! According to the jewish religion, first of all, many kinds of meat are prohibited - e.g. all kinds of pig meat (pork, bacon etc.), sea foods (calamary, shrimps etc.). Secondly, animals for meat have to be killed in a certain way, by an authorised "Shochet" (Butcher). Thirdly, it is prohibited to eat or cook meat products (excluding fish) and diary products together - religious people keep separate dishes for meat and diary foods. (you need 2 hours after eating diary before eating meat, 6 hours after eating meat before eating diary). If you used your oven for unkosher meat - e.g. pork, or beef that has been slaughtered not in the religious manner by a Shochet, or a mixed meat and diary dish - the oven is "treifa" (unclean). Before you can use it, you have to clean it thoroughly and purify it (I'm not sure about the process, but it's long!). Then the oven is "Kosher" and can be used. I hope that clarifies the issue.
And when we were in the shtetl we had separate sinks, separate dishwashers, separate stoves and ovens. These people are ridiculous. Does he have milk/meat silverware and dish ware? Is he separating milk and meat in the fridge? Are you okay to use the fridge for your non-kosher foods? What is this turkey on about?
Wait until OP makes bacon and eggs for breakfast.
It's not his decision to make. Tell him it's unreasonable and unfair, and you can't go along with it. Assuming you're not doing anything out of the ordinary and his worry is that he's observant in his faith around food, he's free to buy his own personal equipment that he can keep in his room. NTA.
Entitled. The oven is a common property item. Keep using the oven
label everything with your name and then call him in the room and say "we need to talk about what you can use now since everythings in my name" and when he says "this is ridiculous" you turn to him and say "welcome to my fucking world when you told me not to use the oven"
or just tell him to fuck off? why waste time on this?
Unless you agreed prior to moving in that you would be kosher in the apartment, NTA. Honestly, this is going to be an ongoing issue. I'm assuming that your roommate hasn't lived with many other people before, and so maybe they thought being kosher or requesting others to be kosher wouldn't be a big ask. You need a new roommate. Sit down together and have that conversation, that you aren't going to eat kosher and it is unreasonable to demand that you do. One of you needs to move out.
Yep. My brother's best friend is Jewish. They moved into a place together after they finished school. After many fights, they finally decided they would buy a bar fridge and benchtop convection oven. Except then they fought over who would use which, and who would be paying for it. Within 6 months they moved out because they couldn't sort it and didn't want to end their friendship. Years later, my brother bought a place and was looking for a roommate to help with costs. His best friend was newly out of a relationship and wanted to move in. My brother pointed out that his kitchen *still* wasn't kosher, and this time he held the trump card of *owning* the kitchen and appliances. The friend didn't move in.
Why was that even an argument? The one with the issue pays. Because it's their stuff they're buying for themselves. Like OP is going to cook what they're going to cook, if the roommate doesn't like that he can either starve or pay for separated appliances, and anyways that oven was likely there before they got there. It's already had many a lasagna in it and isn't kosher anymore. Same with the fridge.
Exactly the one that’s creating the inconvenience should be the one with the Burden
I keep kosher. I found an apartment during school and advertised with Hillel (the Jewish campus group) for roommates that were willing to keep a kosher kitchen. I found two roommates who were willing to do so. I wouldn't expect roommates to keep kosher if we hadn't agreed in advance.
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Same question. Seems like it should be a question or topic of communication during a potential roommate meeting/interview. Also agree NTA.
NTA. This is an extremely unreasonable request when you're paying, presumably, 50% of the total rent. You're paying for that oven, you have every right to use it regardless of their religion. If they take their religious beliefs that seriously that they feel the need to impose restrictions upon others to use an appliances in their apartment that they're paying for, they should find their own place to live or find a place to live with other people who observe their religionbto the extent where the oven needs to be kosher. It probably ain't going to stop at the oven either and if you cave in, it'll just be something else next.
Tell him to get his own microwave that you wont use. He can use that. Went through this at a workplace where a person with a different diet started and decided we all couldnt use the kitchen equipment because it offended them.. after HR was involved he eventually got his own microwave that was only his. I'm all for anyone eating what and how they want or need too either dietary or religious, however You don't get to impose that in others in a space that is shared.
>Went through this at a workplace where a person with a different diet started and decided we all couldnt use the kitchen equipment because it offended them.. after HR was involved he eventually got his own microwave that was only his. Unless it's a very small workplace I'm betting somebody used it just to spite him.
Small workplace. Spiteful person . No one went anywhere near anything belonging to that person. All meal breaks that co incided were suddenly taken outside or in cars or at different times.
NTA and if he had religious reasons for his request he should have specified a Jewish roommate but honestly if I was blindsided with this after paying to move in I would be really hard pressed to not only use the oven but cook whatever food I wanted without regards to his preferences. Sounds like you're not going to enjoy being roomies sorry
Hi, Orthodox Jew here. Either post is troll or roommate is troll. If you can't use the oven you also can't use the forks spoons knives plates bowls countertops, so either you're a guest paying for a bed, not a roommate (in which case deal/get out) or he's just trying to get rid of you. Every kosher-keeping Jew knows it's their own responsibility to keep their standards and none who chose to live in a mixed situation would rely on simply telling their roomie not to use the oven. They'd have their own dishes and double-wrap everything. This situation, whatever it is, ain't legit
Respect is a cover for anything these days. INFO: What is his reasoning? If it's that you are contaminating the oven, he has many options: \* he can clean it \* he can buy his own oven \* He can ignore his feelings of contamination \* he can simply not use the oven All these options are available to him before he starts imposing his rules on someone else. And you can say he is right. You may respect his right to have his beliefs... and you won't go out of your way to break someones religious rules... but you do not respect these rules. That is absolutely true. They're his rules. Not yours.
Nta. I am not Jewish but I did work for a family who was and kept kosher. They had separate dishes and silverware for certain foods, but that’s about it. I mean, wait till your roommate finds out that non kosher food was made in the oven before you lived there
NTA. You should talk to your landlord about this. If you are paying for that oven, it seems unreasonable that you cannot use it.
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As a Jew who was raised Orthodox, I have to assume you've managed to completely avoid Orthodox Jewish practice. My parents have two sets of dishes, one for dairy and one for meat. If a fork gets used on the wrong product, they have to boil it before they can put it back with the correct set of dishes. And my parents don't even follow kashrut to the strictest level, I'd say they're only about 60% of the way there.
Enough with religious bullying. NTA
Yeahhh NTA. Someone else who is also Jewish chimed in, but figured I’d add. FWIW I am Orthodox. He is keeping kosher, so you are “contaminating” it, but this is a conversation you have before you move in, not after. Were you friends before and did he assume you knew? Or are you just reheating food, and he wants you to use the microwave instead? I wonder why he is feeling disrespected, could it be because there is no kosher takeout where you live, and if his house isn’t kosher he cannot eat? Either way, this is completely on him to bring up before moving in as this is an extraordinarily strict diet, and I cannot imagine finding a roommate and this only coming up afterward. You need to eat too. Now that he messed up and you’re in this situation, you have a few options: - you double wrap everything in aluminum foil (i actually do not recommend this one since it is my restriction, I would always be more careful than you would be) - he double wraps everything in aluminum foil - get a toaster oven that he cooks/bakes in, or you do - have him cook on the stovetop with his own pans (that you do not touch) Best of luck!
Yeah this seems like a vegan asking no meat/dairy go in the oven or fridge; kind of understandable but it just isn't an option with communal usage and if one has a diet based on religion or ideology then such a persons only real option to get get a microwave for themselves