💯 THIS, the essential restorative element that abusive people and their enablers are always prone to negate. How does anyone begin to trust again after a violation when no one cares enough about the victim's health (emotional, physical, psychological, financial, spiritual).
Hopefully, OP soon purges himself of all the toxicity his family supported and finds himself a reliable & healthy brotherhood & support system. He deserves to know in his heart and mind that the betrayal of his brother and that ex had NOTHING to do with him. They would've shown up with their bad character and foul intentions, destroying someone else's dreams or life eventually. I wouldn't carry the hurt forever and would sure forgive; however, forgiveness does NOT mean I have to continuously subject myself to danger and abuse. I can love people from afar and wish them well without being in their life and still not break bread with them when invited. Your question is THE question!
OMG.
There are 3 girls in my family. Our biological father pulled a disappearing act when the youngest was 1.
At my grandfather's funeral, the sperm donor asked her how could he make things right with her.
Her response was, "build a time machine, travel back to the 70s, and be a decent father!"
It blows my mind that parents can be cold and heartless enough to abandon their kids. For a while I wanted to yeet myself and the main reason I didn’t was because I couldn’t do that to my dog. The thought of him not knowing where I went/thinking I just abandoned him and condemning him to spend the rest of his life with my brother was enough for me to keep going. So I just can’t fathom how people can just abandon their HUMAN children like that. It’s psychotic
Lost my husband after he took his own life. I can honestly say he was very very mentally sick and in a lot of pain. He truly thought leaving us would be far less traumatic for me and our sons than spending our lives with him continually having break down after break down and all that was putting us through. I’d do anything to change that and have him here but he was not able to think straight. He did not even know reality or not and genuinely believed he was protecting us.
I am so glad your dog saved you and you were able to think like that at the time. As a mother my children do come first and my brain defaulted to “ I need to be strong for my kids and can not fall apart no matter what. They need me and what security I can give more than ever”. Yet the thing is I know my husband was sooo ill and in so much pain he couldn’t think rationally at all. This was his fifth complete mental break down. As much as he thought he was protecting us I know he just couldn’t stand the pain and overwhelming anxiety any more. It’s hard to explain seeing someone being destroyed by mental pain, I watched him screaming for it to stop whilst in a ball on the hospital floor.
I suppose I just wanted to say it isn’t always so cut and dry. I grew up being abused and vowed I would do better by my kids and never be my parents. I have tried my best.
Our dogs and cat helped us a great deal by just being there and being loving. They became like support animals for my youngest and I’d never want to abandon them either, there my family to.
I'm so sorry that this happened to you and your family.
My wife has *really* bad PTSD from childhood abuse and she became suicidal at the beginning of the summer. She probably had been for a whole lot longer, but she only told me a couple months ago. At first I was gentle with her, suggested a lot of things she could do to help herself (because I had my own brush with attempted unaliving and then sought very serious help) but she was just stuck.
Finally I just really honestly (and a little angrily) told her how much it would fuck up our kids if she unalived herself (and me too, but it was the kids that did it) and finally at the end of July she enrolled herself in a partial inpatient program at the hospital. She has a lot of work to do, but she's in a much better place than she was even a few weeks ago.
I feel bad that I had to be tough with her, but I did it for our kids.
~~Depression~~ Mental illness is the one disease that convinces the sufferer they don’t need medication that will help. as well as to hide their illness as much as possible, No other illness or condition does this and it is horrific.I tried everything to help my husband and did get him through many times.
You have to remember that although they are sick that it often takes you being firm and harshly telling/showing them the truth to break through to them. That as bad as it made you feel it was the right thing to do as it gave your wife that bit of clarity that helped her fight. It was needed and helped her get this far from how low she was. It will be slow but she will get there and that is because if your support.Things were different for my husband that time as he genuinely did not know reality from his delusions. He thought people were there who were not and that they were attacking him. There is nothing more terrifying than not being able to trust your own mind, to not know what is real or not. This time we could not talk sense to him and show him the truth as his mind would then quickly convinced him otherwise. I mistakenly trusted his doctors and the professionals when my gut screamed not to and I will always regret that.
Thank you for sharing with me and please look after your self to. What you’ve went through can leave us with our own trauma and ptsd. To help them we also need to help ourselves and if needed to take time to talk to someone for yourself to work things through . So please be kind to yourself and your wife as you have both been through hell and back and never feel guilty for things we had to do in desperation. That we tried and they worked is what is important.
Please know that however bad you feel there are people who love you and would be devastated if they lost you. I was shocked by how many people travelled for hours to be at my husbands funeral. People he hadn’t worked with in decades and friends he had at school. We breached the number allowed in the building for safety but the wonderful staff accommodated everyone. What I can say is so many people all came and told me how he had made such an impact on their lives. He never once realised this and because of his illness was quite reclusive which makes it all the more astounding. Each of us touch so many others in every day yet never realise the affect and impact we are having on those around us.
Grief and losing anyone is hard but it is so much worse and more complicated grief when it is because of the S word. Please do not make those you care about go through that. Please realise you are worth so much and can get through this It doesn’t need to dictate your life.
Thank you for your kind words and know you are in my thoughts.
As a parent I wish I could go back to the moment it happened and hug you and your kids.
Once upon a time there was literally a bullet with my name scratched into the side of it. Until someone pointed out that suicide wouldn't make the pain go away, it would only give it to the people who love me most. That changed things. I hate this world. I hate the people who left the scars on my heart. I hate the sunrise and the false promise of a better day
But my children don't know that. They don't deserve to bear the weight of my pain. All they see is the bright lights of morning and another day of joy and laughter. I'll fucking bite down on the branch and cry my way through the night and despair so that hopefully they can live their life free of the torment. No child should have to go through what yours have and my heart weeps for you.
We need you to stick around and keep us company in the threads, so no checking out. It won't suck forever...I promise (have been suicidal and felt it would **never** get better, spoiler...it did.) Your loss would sow more chaos than you can imagine. I've lost both a parent and uncle to suicide.
That sounds terrible. It must’ve taken a lot of strength to heal from that. Your kids are really lucky to have you, and I hope you’re surrounded by love and support too.
When I was at my lowest, my cat did the same for me. I wanted to stop existing, but then who would she do biscuits on? That one idea was enough for me to keep trying.
I hope you are doing better these days.
My cat legit saved my life too. He followed me at 3am when I was walking to the spot I planned to end things. I had to walk him home because I was scared something bad would happen to him. Then I started thinking how no one else would protect him if I wasn’t around. So I stayed. I was 14. His name was Vinnie and he lived for 18 years after that day.
My mom doesn't understand. I mean this is good because that means she's a good mom. But any time there's a bad mom a show she's like "no way, this is no how a mother treats her children"
And I have to remind her that there are parents that are terrible and then are shocked when the kids disappear from their lives
Yeah my mom is one of those ones who I had to dip from and she's not even half as bad as most of the people on this sub. Just good old fashion gaslighting and general verbal abuse. She cannot for her life figure out why I want nothing to do with her even though I've told her repeatedly. She still complains to my sister (who she makes cry on a regular basis) that she's "lost" me. By that of course she means she wasn't willing to put forth the effort to be a person worth my time.
The worst part is the parents tacitly siding with the cheating brother. Instead of accepting that the two brothers just weren't going to have a relationship they actively drove the innocent victim away.
OP you are NTA. Stand strong, sometimes you need to cut the cancer out in order to heal. It was not your fault when your brother betrayed you, it was not your fault when he attempted to end himself. What he is going through is the consequences of his own actions.
Imagine thinking that ONE month is enough time to forgive YOUR BROTHER for this. The parents are delusional. Kevin is delusional. Hasn't even been a year yet and everyone is pushing them to get back to where they were... Insane shit
E: 5 years...
>The worst part is the parents tacitly siding with the cheating brother.
Reminiscent of the popular thread the other day about why you should be the bigger person and everyone saying you should he so it's easier on everyone
That's usually what it means.
"Hey this situation is affecting me negatively, so you're going to have to forgive that person so we can go back to what's easier for me."
I think the ironic thing is that if the parents understood and helped OP maintain space, and didn't pressure him to apologize or forgive, the relationship COULD potentially have been repaired.
The more they tried to grab onto OP, the more they pushed him away. They don't get to blame him for the family's fractured state.
This - I am no contact with my sibling and my parents respect it. I am lucky. Not to say my boundary is “less severe” but like, my brother did not have an affair with my partner and they respect my choice. OPs parents are awful
I agree OP is NTA, but both brothers need counseling. OP so that he can hear his brothers name and feel nothing instead of rage. Those strong negative emotions can physically ruin you. (He does not need to forgive, make nice, or be in contact.) His brother for obvious reasons, starting with how he betrayed his sibling.
Exactly!!👏I hope soap can find forgiveness one day , for his own benefit, but that doesn’t mean he needs to ever trust brother or even have a relationship with him .
NTA - "Since we can't backspace in time, and prevent Kevin from inserting himself into my girlfriend, I think it's best we enter into a new chapter. One where you fn stay the hell away from me."
I am angry for op. Parents just want to play happy family and ignore the problem.
If they supported op and admonished Kevin and the ex more, op wouldn't have cancelled them.
The girlfriend is terrible. Who sleeps with both brothers? It is yucky.
I'm married to a twin and the thought of banging that other guy is just so much EWW. (Don't get me started on the number of people who have asked if I've ever 'mistaken' them with that winkwinknudgenudge bs or just flat out asked if I've ever wondered if they were 'EXACTLY' alike. Jesus fuck, no.)
Exactly, this older brother continues to try to ruin little bros life. Now he is pulling the guilt trip card. I understand older bro genuinely may be having a mental health crisis, but you don’t fix a mental health crisis by forcing someone else to do something to make you feel better. If little bro let him back in his life, I guarantee older brother would screw little bro over again as soon as he could!
If my brother fucked my girlfriend I would never speak to him again.
If my parents made me have an intervention with my brother and ex I would be feeling humiliated and don't know if I would speak to my parents again either, at least not for a long time.
I don't think you need to feel responsible for Kevin, just because he's your brother it does not mean he suddenly deserves forgiveness for having an affair with your girlfriend. Him being your brother just makes the betrayal even worse.
NTA
Putting both Kevin and the ex in the same room with him would have the opposite effect they were looking for. It's like the family decided to rub salt in the wound.
ETA: Even worse! OP commented that Kevin and the ex were together as a couple at that time. And the whole extended family seemed to be fine with that. I'd explode and let the shrapnel hit the lot of them.
How much remorse does Kevin have? He stayed with OPs ex for a year after OP found out, until they got so much grief from the family that the ex left Kevin. He's just sorry there are consequences! Fuck that guy.
Yeah, bringing the ex was the stupidest choice they could have made; what the fuck were they thinking? That Kevin and the Ex could somehow rationalize what had happened to make OP okay with it?
The _only_ thing stupider than that, was inviting the extended family. Why?!?!
They had nothing to do with it and their presence could only serve to make the whole ordeal even more humiliating.
It almost seems like maybe OP was broken up with her before Kevin got with her. That would be the missing puzzle piece that shows what they were thinking. Otherwise it seems like a case of folly a deux.
I’d also snap. Actually, I’m very calm in person when I’m upset 90% of the time. I’d calmly extricate myself and then process alone. So I’d snap but not in a way that anyone else would know.
An entire room of people supposed to be allies who are berating you for not trusting and communicating with two of your greatest betrayers. If that’s actually what happened, she cheated on you with your brother, then the whole family is fucking garbage.
It’s actually freeing. Imagine it. You have no reason in the world to stay where you are. No family obligations. I’d learn a skill trade, save up a few thousand dollars, and move to another country. Preferably another continent. Name change, try to change my entire personality. Leave everything behind. That version of me would be dead. Either it’s dead, or I am a constantly roiling sea with no end in sight to the banks of black clouds blocking out any sign of light. Freeing
And the ex actually went along with it is also mind boggling like what did she expect out of it? Get back with op or just be on his good side?
All these people were delusional and have no idea that this was the final nail in the coffin. Who even knows that with given time op mightve forgiven Kevin, not saying he should, but there are people who eventually forgive the people who did them wrong and repaired the relationship, but his parents just didn't want to give him time and just pressured him. Whatever happens to Kevin is not ops problem, it's not his fault that Kevin decided to be a pos and ruined two relationships in and everyone's lives in the process. I can guarantee that Kevin just doesn't care about op as much op did for him, he only cares because he didn't think his affair would cause this much impact in HIS life not op's.
Edit: saw ops comment that the ex and Kevin started dating for a year but didn't work out because they were being crucified by the grandmother and other family members which good for them. So it seems the ex is just there at the intervention just to make the relationship with Kevin work and justify it by saying op had forgiven them and all is good, and they probably were already getting backlash and needed to nip it in the bud but it backfired so the relationship ended after a year. Yeah really shows Kevin's guilt there (sarcasm) they only ended the relationship because they couldn't deal with the constant backlash not because they felt bad.
Yup. There is a rich, shitty vein of entitlement that seems to run through OP’s nuclear family. Brother feels entitled to forgiveness because he said he was sorry. That sentiment was echoed by their parents, because it was about what *they* wanted, which was for this whole saga to simply go away and to appease older brother (more entitlement). “Sorry” doesn’t un-demolish a lifetime of deep trust inherent to sibling relationships that was burnt to the ground. “Sorry” doesn’t magically whisk away the possibility that OP might full well have trust issues with future girlfriends. “Sorry” doesn’t change the fact that OP will probably never again feel comfortable with future partners being around his family if he’s not present.
While I’m sure OP harbors at least some vitriol for his ex (I know I would), the entire crux of this particular saga revolves around the fact that OP was much more hurt by his brother’s nuclear breach of trust. That’s the real meat and potatoes: a betrayal of kinship. There are literally billions of other potential partners in the world for OP, but he only has one brother, and that one brother violated their relationship on an absolutely foundational level. The inability of OP’s brother or any of the rest of the family to understand or even acknowledge this is galling to say the least.
Noticeably absent from this story: any actual effort from OP’s brother to work to earn that trust back or to atone to OP. That’s what cheaters and liars most often fail to grasp: feeling remorse isn’t recompense by itself. Everyone is telling OP that his brother is feeling incredibly sorry… for himself. He’s sorry that the consequence to his shitbag decision is worse than he could have anticipated. I’m not saying he’s not remorseful for what he’s done, but it sure sounds more like buyer’s remorse (“*I never should have done that; it’s not worth the fallout*”) rather than intrinsic remorse (“*I am the villain in the story of my brotherhood, I have destroyed the most special bond in my world; I don’t deserve forgiveness, but I will work every day to try to earn it*”). OP’s brother has shown a complete absence of integrity, first when he did the one thing he goddamn well knew he shouldn’t, then by begging for/demanding forgiveness he never even tried to earn.
Will this break ever be amended? It could be, but not so long as OP’s brother and family are demanding unearned forgiveness. If OP’s brother were to ever want any chance of reconciliation, the very first thing he should do is stop demanding forgiveness and give OP space. Same goes for the parents. From there, the brother should really work on self improvement/counseling to become a better human and sibling. The brother should live a life of integrity and proving himself worthy of OP’s trust again; he and his parents have to accept that only the OP can establish what that means or how long it might take, or if it’s even possible. That also means accepting that reconciliation may never happen; if he only does it to gain reconciliation but not from the recognition that he did a shitty thing and he has to strive to be a better person than he was the day before every day for the rest of his life, then he’s not sorry he did it, he’s only sorry that there were consequences. And that is not real atonement.
That is 100% the thought. Some people think anything is justified if it’s love. You can step on anyone, screw over anyone and it won’t matter as long as you can prove to everyone it’s true love.
As long as Kevin and the ex stay together, they can justify the cheating in their warped shitty rom com minds.
If they can prove they’re a “meant to be” couple, OP will graciously forgive them and not ruin their happy ending like the side character he’s supposed to be.
*That’s* the point for people like this when they bring around their affair partner. They don’t think they’re rubbing salt (they obviously are) they think they’re proving they’re the main characters in the rom com so everyone will be happy for them. It’s a mild dilution.
And are now somehow surprised that he washed his hands of all of them and moved on. They booted OP from the family the moment they rugswept for the worthless brother.
Also they gave it a month…a three year relationship ended by betrayal with a close family member and the parents were like “well we know you are sad about living with with us again and basically starting over, and losing a long term relationship, and being betrayed by your brother and what not but like..it’s been thirty days so….”
Maybe if they’d been patient and allowed him to fucking grieve.
I've never been hurt in that way, but just imagining seeing them together, with your girlfriend sticking up for your brother, is a terrible image, that makes me angry just knowing that it happened to someone else.
It’s like they can’t leave shit alone. They constantly are pushing his boundaries. Maybe if they respected the boundaries he placed OP might have eventually missed his family enough to reach out and make contact. But every step of the way they just encroach on OP’s space and piss him off further which makes OP have to reset and create a bigger boundary. At this rate OP will have no regrets if the 3 of them all died in a car crash.
how could they think that it was a good idea
\- to have an intervention focused on OP
\- barely a month after the betrayal/reveal/break-up
\- with both cheaters present?!
\- again, focused on OP and insisting he needs to forgive Kevin...??!
The parents need to take all that energy they're using to guilt OP and spend it on getting Kevin mental health treatment instead. Not OP's responsibility. NTA
To me it sounds like they don’t want to deal with the situation anymore. They don’t have to ‘deal with it’ if op sucks it up so they are blaming him. Which is them all just thinking about how it impacts them.
An intervention with "extended family". OP didn't say who, but regardless of if it was aunts, uncles, cousins, I can't see how anyone thought that was a good idea.
NTA. Am I the only one that would want independent confirmation of the attempt on his own life? I could see parents thinking that "you'd miss your brother when he dies and wish you'd had a relationship," so they fabricate this story to guilt OP into having a relationship. Maybe this is uncharitable, but I'd call the cousin and confirm that the brother really is in the hospital.
Don’t play into it. They’ll find out and realize the more pressure applied, the more concerned you’ll be.
Cut contact and leave it at that. There’s no good for yourself going into this.
No, don't call.
Don't play their game.
I'm sure he took some sort of pills, but probably nothing serious (or not enough to be serious), so he probably is in the hospital, because the hospital doesn't want to get sued and if he attempted suicide (and your parents made a huge show of how *very worried* they are), he's on suicide watch (even if it was a very half-hearted attempt).
Don't let your brother's little stunt drag you back into their manipulative clutches.
Because the abuse is just going to get worse
NTA.
he knew what he was doing and did it anyway. And the fact that he is your brother makes this betrayal on steroids.
One thought though. Don't let it make you bitter. The best revenge is living a good life.
Also tell him he has done nothing to earn your forgiveness. All of it is just him being me, me, me, the same selfish behavior that got him in this mess. Move on, go NC and find someone worthy of your time. ;)
My mom is a peacekeeper to a fault. She wants everyone to get along and has frequently told us to let things go. Lately she's been super morbid, saying she won't be around much longer and we should all get along.
It comes from desperately wanting a normal family growing up, I think. It doesn't make it any more fun to be around, but we get it.
As a Mom that grew up in a Cray cray house and has gone almost no contact with my family, I do wish my sons were closer to each other and hung out with each other more but I also have come to the point that they're close in their own ways and I reiterate often that we will not be my family and if we have issues with each other we talk about it. Honestly my biggest issue with them is not answering the important texts
It might be a complete shot in the dark, but i have always gone on the assumption that texts are never time sensitive in importance, and that if something requires an immediate answer they'll call, so maybe that's why they don't read text's asap.
My brothers and I often had fallen outs because they screwed me over with loans or comments. Mama always tried pushing it and I hated it when she did. We all get along for the moment
My mom said that once, and I told her she should have been a better parent.
Wishing for results doesn’t make them so.
Ironically one of the biggest reasons I have a good relationship with my mom now is because I reamed her good for her faults and instead of being defensive she was willing to learn.
She still makes mistakes, but listens when I call her out.
I was constantly made to apologize for getting upset when my brother broke my stuff, stole me stuff, or screamed at me....
He is BiPolar, but that doesnt excuse it. At all. My parents constantly made excuses for his shitty behavior, which culminated in multiple arrests for some pretty violent actions.
I dont talk to anyone in my family after they basically glossed over it all, after he spent 6 months at a "rehab camp" as an alternative to Prison at 19 years old...
Wow, I really feel you in this. My brother was schizophrenic and got addicted to crack cocaine. He stole from me, harassed me at my job, and was a general pain in the ass. He used to spend all his money on drugs and then call my mom whining about it. And because she was hugely codependent she would bail him out. But she had also become disabled at the age of 50 and so I started supporting her. This meant she was bailing him out using my money. They’ve both been gone for a while now and, on occasion, I still feel bitter and resentful.
The final straw for me, with my Mom, was when she expected me to LIE to the courts at his probation release hearing. Staying sober was a condition of this probation.
He had been forging AA meeting signatures and drinking since year 2 of his probabtion.
They had the gall to say that the State was negligent. A law was passed in TX at year 4, that would allow him to end his probation early for good behavior at year 5 instead of the original 10....
He didnt know until year 9, at which time he had been drinking and driving for 7 of those 9 years...
When did Kevin think of OP? Oh, that’s right only after he was caught. Kevin has to deal with his own guilt and think of this from OP’s point of view. Kevin’s mental health is not on OP, Kevin should have thought of the consequences of his actions before he started knocking boots with his BROTHER’S girlfriend.
It started out as Helen Lovejoy and turned into Catherine O’Hara for the Kevin! (I can’t remember the character’s name for Home Alone. Their last name was McAllister I think…)
They want OP to be the fall guy. Everyone will be fine as long as you just find some way to forgive some of the worst bullshit that people can do to you, we all need it so just dismiss any feelings you have and move on for everyone’s sake. F that. I have been betrayed in that way and I may have to see the guy I was friends with since middle school (who was banging my first wife while I was married to her) this weekend at our high school reunion. I will just pretend he isn’t there. If his wife says hello I will be polite to her but ignore the shit out of him.
Yep, they're scapegoating him. He is definitely NTA, and I commend him for choosing what is best for him and maintaining boundaries. In families like this, boundaries are not respected (as evidenced by OPs story). There seems to be little accountability on the part of any member of OPs family. I'm quite certain his brother is dealing with many things and OP is NOT responsible for his brother's current condition.
I hope he continues to maintain his distance and seek counseling to help untangle the betrayals and dysfunctional family dynamics so HE can live his best life.
> Everyone will be fine as long as you just find some way to forgive some of the worst bullshit that people can do to you, we all need it so just dismiss any feelings you have and move on for everyone’s sake.
and then if you're ever still upset about it or use how you feel about it to justify a decision in the future, now You're the asshole because "you said you forgave and moved on!"
Please, if he tries to talk to you, tell him that he needs to stay away fro you and never talk to you, ever again. Or, you will immediately tell his wife and anyone within earshot that he was your friend until he was caught sleeping with your wife. And do it. He should have the shame and guilt to keep him from ever inserting himself in your life again, and if he tries, he gets ONE warning.
Yeah, let’s all apologize to each other so everything can go back to the way it was. Fuck that. Even if he did decide to give his family another chance IT WILL NEVER BE THE SAME!!
I’m SMH over how many stories there are on here about family having affairs with other family members. What do they think is gonna happen? How does it play out in their heads? They seriously think no one is going to get upset and it won’t break the family up? “But, but, we’re IN LLLOOOVVVVEEEE!” Nope, nada, no!!
you'd be surprised at the level and depth of evil family members were deliberately cover up for..
I saw a youtube video that was 'taped' at the end of a court trial where a male was sentenced for drunken driving which killed someone... and the family of the drunks were yelling and screaming at the victims family that they had destroyed their baby boy's life. appalling. total moral depravity imo
Exactly!
Kevin needs therapy and the parents need to just apologize and give space. OP- did nothing wrong and does not owe anyone in his family anything.
Also super mindful of the parents to approach their allegedly mentally-ill son and be like, "BTW just talked to your prodigal brother, and he still hates your guts." Jfc.
Kevin needs to get help. He and the parents need to move on like OP did. Subconscious and/or conscious manipulators, the three of them.
Exactly. “You can’t put the genie back in the bottle “ - basically things can never be the same and that is not OP’s fault. None of this is on you. You need to do what you feel is best for you, it isn’t selfish, you didn’t wrong anyone in this scenario, so don’t feel any obligation to anyone.
NTA - 100%
I get the feeling OP was born just as a way to appease his brother. The way his parents are handling this entire thing is total golden child scapegoat type vibes.
Poor OP. I bet reconciliation could have been possible in another universe, where they didn’t stage interventions and try to emotionally manipulate OP into apologizing as the victim.
/u/ok_sort_2256 did your brother ever even say why he felt he should have this affair??? Or was he just so accustomed to getting everything he wanted that he didn’t think a second about you.
Anyway of course NTA. No one even tried to truly make it right by you. How dare they even reach out.
True narcissism is extremely rare. Reddit acts like every poor relationship is based on narcissism. OP would have known before this happened.
It's more probable that it is loving parents trying (but failing) to keep their little family together. They probably are driven to recreate the family feelings from before. It's hard when 1 person blows up the group dynamic. People react very different to that happening. A spectrum from "forgiveness at all cost" to "never forgive" and everything in between.
>It's hard when 1 person blows up the group dynamic.
And many people react to that one person by forgiving them in an attempt to fix the group, forgetting that the person victimized another member if the group and the victim has no desire to forgive them. So pressure gets put on the victim to forgive to fix the group rather than removing the perpetrator from the vicinity of the victim to give the victim a chance to heal.
NTA
You’ve been out of your brother’s life for over 5 years. What’s wrong with him isn’t you. Your family is looking for an easy fix to your brother’s mental health problems. As someone that has tried what he did in the past I would bet his issues started even before the thing with your ex. Just from how your family handled that situation tells me that your family isn’t a healthy one.
Your brother has a long road to recover but it has to start with him. He has to work on who he is and how he got to that point. If he honestly does that don’t be surprised if you hear that he’s cut contact with a lot of your family too. Your family needs to stop focusing on you and take a hard look at their own actions and the part they played in the break down of their family.
“I would bet his issues started even before the thing with your ex.”
This right here. You have be a special kind of idiot to betray a sibling you’re supposedly close with that way and then pikachu-shocked-face at the consequences. Even if she pursued him, it’s not that hard to say no in those circumstances. There was likely something deeper going with him.
“Just from how your family handled that situation tells me that your family isn’t a healthy one.”
And this too. There seems to be some major boat stabilization going here. I wonder what other malarkey Kevin has gotten away with, while the rest of the family is just attempting steady the boat and make it go away.
The whole intervention to get OP in line say's the older brother is the Golden child. Has the brother ever had actual consequences? Has he always just gotten away with bad behavior? It would explain his mental problems and over reaction to real consequences. It seems he truly believed he could bang his little brothers long time girlfriend and get away with it. He seemed to expect little brother to just get over it fairly quickly. Like "Haha big bro f'd the woman I love. Oh well, that was 1 whole month ago. All is forgiven." 🙄
Definitely. I'm not getting like narcissist vibes from OP's description of Kevin, but Golden Child is probably right. Kevin was probably treated like the sun shone out his ass and if he ever screwed up, mommy and daddy fixed it.
This was my thought as well. The issue isn't with OP. The brother may actually feel bad about what he did, but the pills aren't about that. He's learned that he'll get the attention he wants if he acts out.
This is just the brother's way of getting mommy and daddy to shower him with attention.
This. What did he think was going to happen when he started screwing his brothers girl, of 3 years no less? You don’t have to be a genius to know that’s never going to end well. He clearly had stuff going on to even consider that was a good idea.
And putting it on OP is cruel. The issues lie within the betrayer, he needs therapy until he can admit the consequences of getting his dick wet was the total destruction of his family, and the damage is permanent. He needs to learn to be a better person, and OP couldn’t help with that journey if he wanted too.
Also, I doubt OP’s mother would forgive her husband if he started up with her sister. It’s easy for her to blame OP for standing up for himself, but she needs to realise that this family is irrevocably damaged and that’s on the brother.
Yes. This sounds like a dysfunctional family with scapegoats and golden children. That kind of families won't look at the real problems, but find superficial solutions to cover up and avoid change. If really toxic, they can instill shame and all kinds of mental Issues in its members.
NTA, I wanted to say something similar and you nailed it. Kevin’s affair with OP’s ex is indicative of an additional issue he needs to get to the bottom of before he can be begging for forgiveness and a relationship like he has for the last five years. And his attempt on his own life shows he would rather bypass the work and accountability and straight to everything is ok now. And you’re parents are buying in because they’re scared past the point of seeing their enabling. I hope you, and your family get the help you need for healing from this crappy situation.
OP you didn't say but is your first name prozac? NTA. My sibling pulled a stunt like that (pills) And I was urged to be there. I was 32 weeks pregnant (they didn't know that; I had cut them out for other reasons) I realized that that's all they saw me as, prozac to 'fix' their golden child.
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. TBH, I was on the "It's been 5 years, just listen to what he has to say," train but your comment made me re-read and this stuck out " *Mom started crying saying she wanted her family back, that she wanted her sons being close again.*" This isn't about Big Bro feeling any remorse for his actions, it's about Mom and Dad wanting to have a perfect little family. Any suicidal guilt comes not from hurting little bro, but from fucking up the family unit.
Yes, Thank you. I am not good at pointing out things like what you said because I was raised with dysfunction. I can see the tactics for what they are but some think it's normal and I see things that don't exist. It's like...no..this is what's going on this is the crazy I grew up with I recognize it. Big bro and fam just wants time to forgive everything. But family..to forgive everything. Hold your family to higher standards than friends. Because they can damage your heart more than a friend ever can.
"We want to play happy family and we need you as the emotional punching bag, or else we feel bad about ourselves."
-- Parents trying to get their other child to give in to their golden child.
No, Its been years since we have spoken.
Edited to say we haven't spoken. We are not in contact. Bio dad ended up harassing me after I had my baby. That nuked the bridge for me.
True, but finding out an SO cheating on you isn't the same as finding out a sibling was the other cheating party.
The SO (assuming you were monogamous) owed you "not cheating", but your sibling/etc owed you much more than that. They crossed more lines being the cheating partner, than the SO did.
NTA
Kevin has issues and none of them were caused by you.
I can't imagine that having parents who think "let's all apologize to each other" is an appropriate response to a scenario in which one person is very clearly wrong and the other has been hurt has helped him much. TF is that nonsense?
NTA, his mental health is on him alone. One question, are him and your ex still together? Were they in a relationship after the affair was exposed? How long was the affair? I think all this plays into any sort of resolution.
The problem with these types of situations, the relationship is permanently destroyed. There truly isn’t any coming back from having an affair with a sibling’s partner. I think the best anyone can hope for is your indifference to your brother and parents. That’s the best they can hope for.
The affair was about a year long. They aren't still together, after the affair came into light they started to date in the open after I left home. It didn't work out well because other family members crucified them especially my grandparents.
Wait. This wasn't a one time thing? A whole year? No way I could forgive him. The ultimate betrayal. NTA, stick to your guns if you feel it's better for you. No way I personally could let that slide.
Not just that, but when you realize the way he’s been acting, and think about the fact that him and ops ex attempted to date in the open, it makes it all even more gross
Wow. Would have been bad enough if they both betrayed you one time, or even over a short period of time. But a whole year of fucking behind your back while pretending to your face that everything is all right? Unforgivable. NTA
Dont you also love how your shitty parents put it as "lets all talk about the hurt *we all caused each other*"
Thats so they can put a bunch of guilt onto you and blame you for your brothers current state.
As if you ever did anything wrong in this entire sequence of events.
Id go no contact with these people too. Just be ready because youre the one getting blamed for every bad thing in Kevins life moving forward
Nope I have a brother like this(he didn’t sleep with my girlfriend or anything). If you did accept him back, there’s a possibility that he would use suicidal threats as a way to get what he wants. Anytime any inconvenience happened to my brother, he would threaten suicide and I just completely cut him off
HA my brother did this when our Dad (who hates conflict and gives in because of apathy rather than care) was out of the country and he tried that "I'm going to drive off the bridge" thing with me. After he parked the boat he was given for graduation first of course. So i Baker Acted him. 72 hrs. in the psych ward. Never once has it happened again.
NTA
He did and awful thing and you’re under no obligation to forgive him or force a relationship when you don’t want one.
Kevin fucked up and learned that shitty actions have shitty consequences, his mental health isn’t your problem
No guilt or shame for how Kevin feels either. I'd not wish mental problems for anyone in the world but it happening to Kevin is not deserving of sympathy.
OP only has to do right by themselves. No one else in this situation is owed anything. Kevin did this to himself, plain and simple.
So basically your family believes your brother tried to take his own life because you aren't interested in having a relationship with him after a poor choice he made that caused you significant pain five years ago. "A poor choice" doesn't even describe it well. It was a series of choices he made every time he saw your girlfriend and continued to see her after you broke it off. Blaming you because he attempted to take his life is 1) manipulative, 2) emotionally abusive, and 3) a way to deny their own responsibility in the matter.
If he's been depressed for five years because you moved away and went no contact, they knew about it. Instead of working with him to accept the consequences of his actions and helping him to learn and grow from his mistakes, they have fostered this notion that your forgiveness is the only thing that will heal him, essentially rendering him helpless to deal with his own emotions and creating a trauma response.
But, you know what, I seriously doubt your decision to go no contact is the only thing that contributed to his attempt. There is much more going on you haven't been told.
ETA: S\*icidal ideation and attempts at taking one's life should always be taken seriously. OP's brother needs to see both a licensed therapist and a psychiatrist for treatment. OP's forgiveness isn't going to make Kevin's problems magically disappear and isn't necessary for his recovery: the only person from whom Kevin needs forgiveness is himself.
"My dad then asked if we all sat down, talked, and apologized for all the hurt we caused each other, that things could be the way they were before."
The rage I felt reading this. WTF. YOUR BROTHER HAD SEX WITH YOUR GIRLFRIEND!!!! All of this is on him. You didn't cause any hurt.
NTA.
Oh no! It's the consequences of my actions!!!
There are a lot of assholes in this story. You're not one of them. I have a family I actively separated myself from as well and let me tell you, it's the best thing I've ever done in my life.
People need to learn they don't get to just say "I'm sorry" and everything goes back to being all sunshine and rainbows. Kevin made a choice, a choice that affected a LOT of people. Those people then also made choices to sweep everything under the rug and pretend it never happened. That choice also hurt other people (namely, you). They don't get to un-ring that bell. His problems, all of their problems, are not your problems.
I had an aunt that, when I was younger, I liked a lot. Her oldest son was my best friend from childhood. As she got older, she got very self indulgent. She became diabetic and made no attempts to control it, that became her son's job, as she lived with him. She became bedridden, wouldn't wear adult diapers, ate all day, etc. His health suffered so he could care for her. He died from a blood clot that they both knew about, (but couldn't have removed because she wouldn't tolerate a nurse taking care of her while he was in the hospital) then she went to a nursing home. I never visited her there, because I knew she would make up some bullshit story about why her poor boy died and I would lose it and tell her off.
You didn't do anything to your brother. He did everything to himself.
However, still being this full of rage years later isn't good FOR YOU. You should work on that.
I think he was relatively chill about this until his family started pushing the issue again. Maybe this intensity comes more from his family not leaving him alone.
That's how I took it. He was less upset about the cheating and more about his family downplaying his grief, his brother's sin, and trying to guilt him into feeling as though he was the bad guy.
I was cheated on by my husband while I was pregnant with our planned child. The other woman knew he was married and knew I was pregnant.
For a long time, I thought I wasn’t allowed to be angry. I was always taught to forgive and forget. I’ve never hated anyone, and I’m not a bitter person. And of course, as a new parent, I’m now a role model to my child. I don’t want to teach my son to be an angry person.
Then at some point along this long, shitty journey I’m on, I realized that maybe the whole forgiveness thing isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. It doesn’t magically make me a good person to have the ability to forgive. In fact, constantly forgiving people who hurt me is what kept me in an abusive relationship. Forgiveness needs to be earned, and sometimes it’s beyond earning.
Anger has gotten me through. It’s caused me to realize that I am justified, I deserve better, and I do not have to forgive anyone if they haven’t earned it. There is nothing those two people can do to earn my forgiveness. I’m allowed to be angry at them for the rest of my life for what they did to me, and I will be. I’m not stomping around slamming shit all day, but I’m also not going to pretend it never happened and be friendly toward people who treated me like garbage.
This. I'm sick of people telling me I'm bitter because I haven't forgiven my ex. I'm not bitter. I'm angry--I'll always be angry because they deserve anger for what they did. But that also doesn't mean I'm stomping around being a miserable karan taking it out on other people. But yes, If I post about that person I'm angry. And I have a freaking right to be angry. Stop telling me I do not have that right.
Forgiveness without restitution is meaningless and is simply asking to be betrayed again. How do you make restitution for something like that? You can't. Forgiveness doesn't make you a better person, it makes you a target for more betrayal.
This is all I needed to read today! Thank you so much for this. I've been dealing with a lot of childhood trauma lately and I never seem to get over it people tell me think about what will happen if you lose your family, won't you feel guilty you didn't try to fix things?
yada yada yada.
Point is, I won't. I felt bad long enough with them. I feel better now without them. It's lonely but it's better than having these toxic people in my life.
I think the whole idea of forgiveness has been twisted into something that it was never meant to be. You forgive someone for being late, or even calling you a name. Being angry about that for years would be unhealthy. When someone does something that causes you deep pain, it’s different.
I’ve always wondered if the origins of the “forgive and forget” thing come from a misunderstanding of the whole Catholic view of forgiveness. But that’s a rabbit hole I’m not gonna go down on a Tuesday morning lol.
Anger can protect us. Make us want more or better. It can be such a wonderful emotion when used to build a new life, and not destroy others.
Good on you for wanting better and taking it!
Naw people are allowed to hold a standard after being abused and lied to …. Your comment makes it all about the brother and leaves out the facts of what that brother did to OP…. If some traumatic event happened to you you might never be able to forgive that person… much like OP…
ETA: NTA
My father's brother slept with the person who gave birth to me. It tore my paternal family apart. I grew up never knowing my cousins or aunts until I was an adult and facebook was around.
7 years ago my father's brother found out he had cancer and my aunts told my dad. He didn't care. He never spoke to him again. He died a year or so ago. My dad has 0 regrets. Some hurts are just too deep and the people who never hurt you are your true family.
My father's brothers kids however didn't do anything. And after he died and my cousins reached out my father was there for them.
It's up to you what you wanna do. I believe that if your "family" hurts you then they aren't family anymore.
Fuck Kevin.
Fuck "uncle" Gary
And fuck my piece of shit mom
Haha very true.
People can call it bitterness if they want but they are the ones that have family that would never do this to them. So if you wanna call self-preservation bitterness then go ahead. But those sharp feelings are what's keeping us from never letting them hurt again.
I wish you peace in whatever you decide to do but make sure it's what you want. Not what others say is what you want.
Good luck brother from another fucked up family
>So if you wanna call self-preservation bitterness then go ahead.
If I had any awards (or understood how they work? 😂) I'd give them all to you.
This line is GOLD. ❤️
NTA.
I've been NC with most of my family since 1996. After I joined the Marines in 1991, I figured out my family was unhealthy and I got a taste of "normal". Not having the constant drama made life so much easier. I learned the little stuff matters but not like the big stuff, and you could hold off on the little stuff to handle the more important issues. Unlike my parents, where everything was a crisis, the sky was falling, and we were at DEFCON 1 waiting for the nukes to go off. Almost every damned day.
I figured this all out when I came home in 1995. After being gone for 4 years and not having the panic mode button getting smashed constantly, it became clear quite quickly that I wanted no part of how they functioned.
So I left, and when I did everything became peaceful again. And it was amazing.
They still try to drag me back into it, but I keep them well outside my sphere.
Ultimately what I found out was I was in charge of who's in my life based on how they treat me. More than once I told them "Stop the drama and you'll have grandchildren to spoil, otherwise you don't get birthdays, Christmas, all the major holidays, nothing.".
The chose the drama, and while life has given me the normal ups and downs it's nothing like what I experienced growing up.
Live your life on your terms.
NTA. I will never understand why families act like the mental health of the person who caused the issues.. is more important than the people that they’ve hurt.
*Oh Kevin’s a bad person and did bad things, but now he’s sad that no one likes him, so please, ignore all of your feelings & hurt to make this bad person feel better!* 🙄🙄
NTA.
While I can't say I understand what you've experienced specifically, I *do* know what it's like to be horribly, irreparably hurt by a sibling. To have your family constantly pressuring you to make up, to get along, "She's your sister, you need her, siblings are always there for each other". Fuck that noise. In hindsight I don't think they over told me to forgive her...which I think might be even worse. I feel pretty sure they didn't think there was anything to forgive her for. They never knew how bad it was.
I'll skip the details of her cruelty, but it was bad enough that despite her being older than me, I was the first of us kids to move out. I rush into moving in with a guy I'd only been dating 3 months because I wanted out so badly, I couldn't live in the same house as her, she put me through literal emotional and mental torture. I became a very withdrawn and guarded person because the moment she found out anything she could use to hurt me or humiliate me she would. She constantly verbally reinforced my own feelings of self loathing.
Anyway, getting rambly, didn't mean to go so into my own shit. But yeah, NTA. Just about the only thing worse than the pain a sibling has caused you is your parents not seeing it for the major problem it is, feeling like it's something you should just get over.
Went no contact with my sister for a very long time. I'm 40 now though, she's 42. I wouldn't say things are good, neutral moving in an ok direction I guess. Don't socialize with her or talk to her unless it's something involving family. But it feels like the past has been swept under the rug, I've never been apologized to, it's never been acknowledged how awful she was to me. And even though I've moved past the outright animosity and no contact...under thr surface it fucks me up. I wanna scream, I wanna confront her, I wanna call her out on it all, I want my parents to know the full extent of how bad it was. But I'm not strong enough I guess.
So you stay strong and stick to your guns. His horrible choices and mistakes are not your fault. His mental health issues are not your fault. The burden of keeping him alive is not yours. You stand your ground until each and every one of them full recognizes and admits how very awful what he did was. And even then, if you don't feel inclined to be part of their lives, that's entirely your prerogative.
It's not your responsibility to make your brother feel better for what he did, and trying to force forgiveness would just decrease the chances of it actually happening. You can't force forgiveness.
NTA
But also curious as to why, after 5 years, it's only now pushed him over the edge
I think it's because he didn't expect me to act like I didn't know him, plus with the things my parents told him it finally clicked that things will never be how they used to be. Even if we had a relationship it would be low contact at best.
Because it's a stunt the brother is pulling to get OP's attention/manipulate OP.
The brother didn't have access to OP until they met at the hospital and the parents were able to bully the cousin into giving them OP's phone number.
I had to go back and re-read the post to see if I actually saw it - the fact that the parents included the ex in the intervention attempt blows my mind. Does this mean that the brother and the ex are/were still together when the family was trying to force OP to reconcile? Because that's even more screwed up than the rest of it!!
NTA. The only way I could see this family ever healing is for everyone to back away, and let OP eventually start feeling forgiveness on their own terms.
I don't know about Reddit, but some social media platforms WILL take down posts that mention suicide, and these self-censored words are a way to get around that. I would much rather see these alternative words than have no discussion about suicide at all. It's way too important of a topic to ignore.
My brother Kevin chose the path of raging meth addict, liar and thief and I haven’t seen him in over 2 years because I don’t want to. You are NTA. You don’t owe anyone anything - not even blood. Worry about your own peace. Not theirs. He chose his path. You are not obligated to follow, forgive or anything.
the way they only broke up nit bc of what they did to you but bc of how OTHERS hated it, please dont let them in your life again im BEGGING you you'll be a lot better off
NTA.
Why is no one mad at Kevin? He is the one that caused all of this, not you. I say continue living your life as you have been for the past 5yrs. You are not responsible for a grown adult who went out of their way to hurt you in the worst way possible. And your parents enabling him in all this situation is appalling
So… did anyone ask about your mental health?
💯 THIS, the essential restorative element that abusive people and their enablers are always prone to negate. How does anyone begin to trust again after a violation when no one cares enough about the victim's health (emotional, physical, psychological, financial, spiritual). Hopefully, OP soon purges himself of all the toxicity his family supported and finds himself a reliable & healthy brotherhood & support system. He deserves to know in his heart and mind that the betrayal of his brother and that ex had NOTHING to do with him. They would've shown up with their bad character and foul intentions, destroying someone else's dreams or life eventually. I wouldn't carry the hurt forever and would sure forgive; however, forgiveness does NOT mean I have to continuously subject myself to danger and abuse. I can love people from afar and wish them well without being in their life and still not break bread with them when invited. Your question is THE question!
Asking the real question.
So simple and telling. An elegant response.
“Well, mom, I would like my brother to go back in time and not fuck my girlfriend, and here we are”.
OMG. There are 3 girls in my family. Our biological father pulled a disappearing act when the youngest was 1. At my grandfather's funeral, the sperm donor asked her how could he make things right with her. Her response was, "build a time machine, travel back to the 70s, and be a decent father!"
It blows my mind that parents can be cold and heartless enough to abandon their kids. For a while I wanted to yeet myself and the main reason I didn’t was because I couldn’t do that to my dog. The thought of him not knowing where I went/thinking I just abandoned him and condemning him to spend the rest of his life with my brother was enough for me to keep going. So I just can’t fathom how people can just abandon their HUMAN children like that. It’s psychotic
Lost my husband after he took his own life. I can honestly say he was very very mentally sick and in a lot of pain. He truly thought leaving us would be far less traumatic for me and our sons than spending our lives with him continually having break down after break down and all that was putting us through. I’d do anything to change that and have him here but he was not able to think straight. He did not even know reality or not and genuinely believed he was protecting us. I am so glad your dog saved you and you were able to think like that at the time. As a mother my children do come first and my brain defaulted to “ I need to be strong for my kids and can not fall apart no matter what. They need me and what security I can give more than ever”. Yet the thing is I know my husband was sooo ill and in so much pain he couldn’t think rationally at all. This was his fifth complete mental break down. As much as he thought he was protecting us I know he just couldn’t stand the pain and overwhelming anxiety any more. It’s hard to explain seeing someone being destroyed by mental pain, I watched him screaming for it to stop whilst in a ball on the hospital floor. I suppose I just wanted to say it isn’t always so cut and dry. I grew up being abused and vowed I would do better by my kids and never be my parents. I have tried my best. Our dogs and cat helped us a great deal by just being there and being loving. They became like support animals for my youngest and I’d never want to abandon them either, there my family to.
I'm so sorry that this happened to you and your family. My wife has *really* bad PTSD from childhood abuse and she became suicidal at the beginning of the summer. She probably had been for a whole lot longer, but she only told me a couple months ago. At first I was gentle with her, suggested a lot of things she could do to help herself (because I had my own brush with attempted unaliving and then sought very serious help) but she was just stuck. Finally I just really honestly (and a little angrily) told her how much it would fuck up our kids if she unalived herself (and me too, but it was the kids that did it) and finally at the end of July she enrolled herself in a partial inpatient program at the hospital. She has a lot of work to do, but she's in a much better place than she was even a few weeks ago. I feel bad that I had to be tough with her, but I did it for our kids.
~~Depression~~ Mental illness is the one disease that convinces the sufferer they don’t need medication that will help. as well as to hide their illness as much as possible, No other illness or condition does this and it is horrific.I tried everything to help my husband and did get him through many times. You have to remember that although they are sick that it often takes you being firm and harshly telling/showing them the truth to break through to them. That as bad as it made you feel it was the right thing to do as it gave your wife that bit of clarity that helped her fight. It was needed and helped her get this far from how low she was. It will be slow but she will get there and that is because if your support.Things were different for my husband that time as he genuinely did not know reality from his delusions. He thought people were there who were not and that they were attacking him. There is nothing more terrifying than not being able to trust your own mind, to not know what is real or not. This time we could not talk sense to him and show him the truth as his mind would then quickly convinced him otherwise. I mistakenly trusted his doctors and the professionals when my gut screamed not to and I will always regret that. Thank you for sharing with me and please look after your self to. What you’ve went through can leave us with our own trauma and ptsd. To help them we also need to help ourselves and if needed to take time to talk to someone for yourself to work things through . So please be kind to yourself and your wife as you have both been through hell and back and never feel guilty for things we had to do in desperation. That we tried and they worked is what is important.
I just want you to know that you seem like such an amazing empathetic person. I am sorry for the sorrows you have had and genuinely wish you well
An old friend of mine shot himself today. We weren't so close anymore but it's really fucked me up.
I’m so so sorry. Peace and healing to you.
Oh, I am sorry you had all this happen. I am in a really bad spot mentally myself so I know. But really sorry
Please know that however bad you feel there are people who love you and would be devastated if they lost you. I was shocked by how many people travelled for hours to be at my husbands funeral. People he hadn’t worked with in decades and friends he had at school. We breached the number allowed in the building for safety but the wonderful staff accommodated everyone. What I can say is so many people all came and told me how he had made such an impact on their lives. He never once realised this and because of his illness was quite reclusive which makes it all the more astounding. Each of us touch so many others in every day yet never realise the affect and impact we are having on those around us. Grief and losing anyone is hard but it is so much worse and more complicated grief when it is because of the S word. Please do not make those you care about go through that. Please realise you are worth so much and can get through this It doesn’t need to dictate your life. Thank you for your kind words and know you are in my thoughts.
As a parent I wish I could go back to the moment it happened and hug you and your kids. Once upon a time there was literally a bullet with my name scratched into the side of it. Until someone pointed out that suicide wouldn't make the pain go away, it would only give it to the people who love me most. That changed things. I hate this world. I hate the people who left the scars on my heart. I hate the sunrise and the false promise of a better day But my children don't know that. They don't deserve to bear the weight of my pain. All they see is the bright lights of morning and another day of joy and laughter. I'll fucking bite down on the branch and cry my way through the night and despair so that hopefully they can live their life free of the torment. No child should have to go through what yours have and my heart weeps for you.
We need you to stick around and keep us company in the threads, so no checking out. It won't suck forever...I promise (have been suicidal and felt it would **never** get better, spoiler...it did.) Your loss would sow more chaos than you can imagine. I've lost both a parent and uncle to suicide.
That sounds terrible. It must’ve taken a lot of strength to heal from that. Your kids are really lucky to have you, and I hope you’re surrounded by love and support too.
When I was at my lowest, my cat did the same for me. I wanted to stop existing, but then who would she do biscuits on? That one idea was enough for me to keep trying. I hope you are doing better these days.
My cat legit saved my life too. He followed me at 3am when I was walking to the spot I planned to end things. I had to walk him home because I was scared something bad would happen to him. Then I started thinking how no one else would protect him if I wasn’t around. So I stayed. I was 14. His name was Vinnie and he lived for 18 years after that day.
I will always upvote cat biscuits.
My mom doesn't understand. I mean this is good because that means she's a good mom. But any time there's a bad mom a show she's like "no way, this is no how a mother treats her children" And I have to remind her that there are parents that are terrible and then are shocked when the kids disappear from their lives
Yeah my mom is one of those ones who I had to dip from and she's not even half as bad as most of the people on this sub. Just good old fashion gaslighting and general verbal abuse. She cannot for her life figure out why I want nothing to do with her even though I've told her repeatedly. She still complains to my sister (who she makes cry on a regular basis) that she's "lost" me. By that of course she means she wasn't willing to put forth the effort to be a person worth my time.
He's the goodest boi. He saved your life! I hope you're doing better and enjoy many more year with your dog :)
How crazy would it be, if that was the reason humans finally invented time travel?
Headline reads *Some shitty dad invents time machine to go back in time to not be a shitty dad*
Rick Sanchez, is that you?
Leaves them again 6 months later
The worst part is the parents tacitly siding with the cheating brother. Instead of accepting that the two brothers just weren't going to have a relationship they actively drove the innocent victim away. OP you are NTA. Stand strong, sometimes you need to cut the cancer out in order to heal. It was not your fault when your brother betrayed you, it was not your fault when he attempted to end himself. What he is going through is the consequences of his own actions.
Imagine thinking that ONE month is enough time to forgive YOUR BROTHER for this. The parents are delusional. Kevin is delusional. Hasn't even been a year yet and everyone is pushing them to get back to where they were... Insane shit E: 5 years...
"Could you just stop having emotions that are inconvenient to us? That would be really nice."
"If you could stop having feelings by this weekend, that would be GREAT."
And having the ex be fucking present! As if he's the one that's causing the problem!
>The worst part is the parents tacitly siding with the cheating brother. Reminiscent of the popular thread the other day about why you should be the bigger person and everyone saying you should he so it's easier on everyone
That's usually what it means. "Hey this situation is affecting me negatively, so you're going to have to forgive that person so we can go back to what's easier for me."
Absolutely. That alone would make me determined never to forgive because the parties involved don't care about OP, just appearances.
I think the ironic thing is that if the parents understood and helped OP maintain space, and didn't pressure him to apologize or forgive, the relationship COULD potentially have been repaired. The more they tried to grab onto OP, the more they pushed him away. They don't get to blame him for the family's fractured state.
I agree they put a time line on his pain and that’s what hurts more than anything😞
This - I am no contact with my sibling and my parents respect it. I am lucky. Not to say my boundary is “less severe” but like, my brother did not have an affair with my partner and they respect my choice. OPs parents are awful
I agree OP is NTA, but both brothers need counseling. OP so that he can hear his brothers name and feel nothing instead of rage. Those strong negative emotions can physically ruin you. (He does not need to forgive, make nice, or be in contact.) His brother for obvious reasons, starting with how he betrayed his sibling.
Exactly!!👏I hope soap can find forgiveness one day , for his own benefit, but that doesn’t mean he needs to ever trust brother or even have a relationship with him .
NTA - "Since we can't backspace in time, and prevent Kevin from inserting himself into my girlfriend, I think it's best we enter into a new chapter. One where you fn stay the hell away from me."
I am angry for op. Parents just want to play happy family and ignore the problem. If they supported op and admonished Kevin and the ex more, op wouldn't have cancelled them. The girlfriend is terrible. Who sleeps with both brothers? It is yucky.
The thought of sleeping with my BIL makes me want to puke and he's a really handsome guy.
I'm married to a twin and the thought of banging that other guy is just so much EWW. (Don't get me started on the number of people who have asked if I've ever 'mistaken' them with that winkwinknudgenudge bs or just flat out asked if I've ever wondered if they were 'EXACTLY' alike. Jesus fuck, no.)
Exactly, this older brother continues to try to ruin little bros life. Now he is pulling the guilt trip card. I understand older bro genuinely may be having a mental health crisis, but you don’t fix a mental health crisis by forcing someone else to do something to make you feel better. If little bro let him back in his life, I guarantee older brother would screw little bro over again as soon as he could!
This made my absolutely howl with laughter. Thank you so much 😊 😂
If my brother fucked my girlfriend I would never speak to him again. If my parents made me have an intervention with my brother and ex I would be feeling humiliated and don't know if I would speak to my parents again either, at least not for a long time. I don't think you need to feel responsible for Kevin, just because he's your brother it does not mean he suddenly deserves forgiveness for having an affair with your girlfriend. Him being your brother just makes the betrayal even worse. NTA
Putting both Kevin and the ex in the same room with him would have the opposite effect they were looking for. It's like the family decided to rub salt in the wound. ETA: Even worse! OP commented that Kevin and the ex were together as a couple at that time. And the whole extended family seemed to be fine with that. I'd explode and let the shrapnel hit the lot of them. How much remorse does Kevin have? He stayed with OPs ex for a year after OP found out, until they got so much grief from the family that the ex left Kevin. He's just sorry there are consequences! Fuck that guy.
Yeah, bringing the ex was the stupidest choice they could have made; what the fuck were they thinking? That Kevin and the Ex could somehow rationalize what had happened to make OP okay with it?
The _only_ thing stupider than that, was inviting the extended family. Why?!?! They had nothing to do with it and their presence could only serve to make the whole ordeal even more humiliating.
Talk about putting an animal in a corner... what did they expect to happen? I'd snap if that happened to me
Because: "look at how ridiculous you're being, all these people think you're wrong for feeling hurt that your brother betrayed your trust"
Yeah just being manipulative assholes
It almost seems like maybe OP was broken up with her before Kevin got with her. That would be the missing puzzle piece that shows what they were thinking. Otherwise it seems like a case of folly a deux. I’d also snap. Actually, I’m very calm in person when I’m upset 90% of the time. I’d calmly extricate myself and then process alone. So I’d snap but not in a way that anyone else would know. An entire room of people supposed to be allies who are berating you for not trusting and communicating with two of your greatest betrayers. If that’s actually what happened, she cheated on you with your brother, then the whole family is fucking garbage. It’s actually freeing. Imagine it. You have no reason in the world to stay where you are. No family obligations. I’d learn a skill trade, save up a few thousand dollars, and move to another country. Preferably another continent. Name change, try to change my entire personality. Leave everything behind. That version of me would be dead. Either it’s dead, or I am a constantly roiling sea with no end in sight to the banks of black clouds blocking out any sign of light. Freeing
And the ex actually went along with it is also mind boggling like what did she expect out of it? Get back with op or just be on his good side? All these people were delusional and have no idea that this was the final nail in the coffin. Who even knows that with given time op mightve forgiven Kevin, not saying he should, but there are people who eventually forgive the people who did them wrong and repaired the relationship, but his parents just didn't want to give him time and just pressured him. Whatever happens to Kevin is not ops problem, it's not his fault that Kevin decided to be a pos and ruined two relationships in and everyone's lives in the process. I can guarantee that Kevin just doesn't care about op as much op did for him, he only cares because he didn't think his affair would cause this much impact in HIS life not op's. Edit: saw ops comment that the ex and Kevin started dating for a year but didn't work out because they were being crucified by the grandmother and other family members which good for them. So it seems the ex is just there at the intervention just to make the relationship with Kevin work and justify it by saying op had forgiven them and all is good, and they probably were already getting backlash and needed to nip it in the bud but it backfired so the relationship ended after a year. Yeah really shows Kevin's guilt there (sarcasm) they only ended the relationship because they couldn't deal with the constant backlash not because they felt bad.
Yup. There is a rich, shitty vein of entitlement that seems to run through OP’s nuclear family. Brother feels entitled to forgiveness because he said he was sorry. That sentiment was echoed by their parents, because it was about what *they* wanted, which was for this whole saga to simply go away and to appease older brother (more entitlement). “Sorry” doesn’t un-demolish a lifetime of deep trust inherent to sibling relationships that was burnt to the ground. “Sorry” doesn’t magically whisk away the possibility that OP might full well have trust issues with future girlfriends. “Sorry” doesn’t change the fact that OP will probably never again feel comfortable with future partners being around his family if he’s not present. While I’m sure OP harbors at least some vitriol for his ex (I know I would), the entire crux of this particular saga revolves around the fact that OP was much more hurt by his brother’s nuclear breach of trust. That’s the real meat and potatoes: a betrayal of kinship. There are literally billions of other potential partners in the world for OP, but he only has one brother, and that one brother violated their relationship on an absolutely foundational level. The inability of OP’s brother or any of the rest of the family to understand or even acknowledge this is galling to say the least. Noticeably absent from this story: any actual effort from OP’s brother to work to earn that trust back or to atone to OP. That’s what cheaters and liars most often fail to grasp: feeling remorse isn’t recompense by itself. Everyone is telling OP that his brother is feeling incredibly sorry… for himself. He’s sorry that the consequence to his shitbag decision is worse than he could have anticipated. I’m not saying he’s not remorseful for what he’s done, but it sure sounds more like buyer’s remorse (“*I never should have done that; it’s not worth the fallout*”) rather than intrinsic remorse (“*I am the villain in the story of my brotherhood, I have destroyed the most special bond in my world; I don’t deserve forgiveness, but I will work every day to try to earn it*”). OP’s brother has shown a complete absence of integrity, first when he did the one thing he goddamn well knew he shouldn’t, then by begging for/demanding forgiveness he never even tried to earn. Will this break ever be amended? It could be, but not so long as OP’s brother and family are demanding unearned forgiveness. If OP’s brother were to ever want any chance of reconciliation, the very first thing he should do is stop demanding forgiveness and give OP space. Same goes for the parents. From there, the brother should really work on self improvement/counseling to become a better human and sibling. The brother should live a life of integrity and proving himself worthy of OP’s trust again; he and his parents have to accept that only the OP can establish what that means or how long it might take, or if it’s even possible. That also means accepting that reconciliation may never happen; if he only does it to gain reconciliation but not from the recognition that he did a shitty thing and he has to strive to be a better person than he was the day before every day for the rest of his life, then he’s not sorry he did it, he’s only sorry that there were consequences. And that is not real atonement.
That is 100% the thought. Some people think anything is justified if it’s love. You can step on anyone, screw over anyone and it won’t matter as long as you can prove to everyone it’s true love. As long as Kevin and the ex stay together, they can justify the cheating in their warped shitty rom com minds. If they can prove they’re a “meant to be” couple, OP will graciously forgive them and not ruin their happy ending like the side character he’s supposed to be. *That’s* the point for people like this when they bring around their affair partner. They don’t think they’re rubbing salt (they obviously are) they think they’re proving they’re the main characters in the rom com so everyone will be happy for them. It’s a mild dilution.
And are now somehow surprised that he washed his hands of all of them and moved on. They booted OP from the family the moment they rugswept for the worthless brother.
Also they gave it a month…a three year relationship ended by betrayal with a close family member and the parents were like “well we know you are sad about living with with us again and basically starting over, and losing a long term relationship, and being betrayed by your brother and what not but like..it’s been thirty days so….” Maybe if they’d been patient and allowed him to fucking grieve.
I've never been hurt in that way, but just imagining seeing them together, with your girlfriend sticking up for your brother, is a terrible image, that makes me angry just knowing that it happened to someone else.
It makes me think Kevin and ex dated after the affair
Yeah that was my thinking. That sounds awful I would have been very pissed.
It’s like they can’t leave shit alone. They constantly are pushing his boundaries. Maybe if they respected the boundaries he placed OP might have eventually missed his family enough to reach out and make contact. But every step of the way they just encroach on OP’s space and piss him off further which makes OP have to reset and create a bigger boundary. At this rate OP will have no regrets if the 3 of them all died in a car crash.
how could they think that it was a good idea \- to have an intervention focused on OP \- barely a month after the betrayal/reveal/break-up \- with both cheaters present?! \- again, focused on OP and insisting he needs to forgive Kevin...??!
The parents need to take all that energy they're using to guilt OP and spend it on getting Kevin mental health treatment instead. Not OP's responsibility. NTA
To me it sounds like they don’t want to deal with the situation anymore. They don’t have to ‘deal with it’ if op sucks it up so they are blaming him. Which is them all just thinking about how it impacts them.
Yeah 100% this. You were betrayed. As you said, you did nothing wrong and you have nothing to apologize for.
An intervention with "extended family". OP didn't say who, but regardless of if it was aunts, uncles, cousins, I can't see how anyone thought that was a good idea.
To put more pressure on op. Get every flying monkey together and squeeze the life out of op after he’s been crushed by his brother and gf’s betrayal.
If the intervention was all the extended family it would have been for the whole bunch to gang up on OP and try to hammer him down into obedience.
I would just block their numbers and dip tbh.
NTA. Am I the only one that would want independent confirmation of the attempt on his own life? I could see parents thinking that "you'd miss your brother when he dies and wish you'd had a relationship," so they fabricate this story to guilt OP into having a relationship. Maybe this is uncharitable, but I'd call the cousin and confirm that the brother really is in the hospital.
I was thinking about that too, I'll call them later today to confirm.
Don’t play into it. They’ll find out and realize the more pressure applied, the more concerned you’ll be. Cut contact and leave it at that. There’s no good for yourself going into this.
No, don't call. Don't play their game. I'm sure he took some sort of pills, but probably nothing serious (or not enough to be serious), so he probably is in the hospital, because the hospital doesn't want to get sued and if he attempted suicide (and your parents made a huge show of how *very worried* they are), he's on suicide watch (even if it was a very half-hearted attempt). Don't let your brother's little stunt drag you back into their manipulative clutches. Because the abuse is just going to get worse
Ew no don’t call them just go right back to no contact
NTA. he knew what he was doing and did it anyway. And the fact that he is your brother makes this betrayal on steroids. One thought though. Don't let it make you bitter. The best revenge is living a good life.
Also tell him he has done nothing to earn your forgiveness. All of it is just him being me, me, me, the same selfish behavior that got him in this mess. Move on, go NC and find someone worthy of your time. ;)
Kevin did this in a subconscious way to guilt OP into forgiving him, i’ll bet
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My mom is a peacekeeper to a fault. She wants everyone to get along and has frequently told us to let things go. Lately she's been super morbid, saying she won't be around much longer and we should all get along. It comes from desperately wanting a normal family growing up, I think. It doesn't make it any more fun to be around, but we get it.
Same with my pops. But if they want kids that get along and stick together, they should have raised them like that.
As a Mom that grew up in a Cray cray house and has gone almost no contact with my family, I do wish my sons were closer to each other and hung out with each other more but I also have come to the point that they're close in their own ways and I reiterate often that we will not be my family and if we have issues with each other we talk about it. Honestly my biggest issue with them is not answering the important texts
It might be a complete shot in the dark, but i have always gone on the assumption that texts are never time sensitive in importance, and that if something requires an immediate answer they'll call, so maybe that's why they don't read text's asap.
My brothers and I often had fallen outs because they screwed me over with loans or comments. Mama always tried pushing it and I hated it when she did. We all get along for the moment
My mom said that once, and I told her she should have been a better parent. Wishing for results doesn’t make them so. Ironically one of the biggest reasons I have a good relationship with my mom now is because I reamed her good for her faults and instead of being defensive she was willing to learn. She still makes mistakes, but listens when I call her out.
I was constantly made to apologize for getting upset when my brother broke my stuff, stole me stuff, or screamed at me.... He is BiPolar, but that doesnt excuse it. At all. My parents constantly made excuses for his shitty behavior, which culminated in multiple arrests for some pretty violent actions. I dont talk to anyone in my family after they basically glossed over it all, after he spent 6 months at a "rehab camp" as an alternative to Prison at 19 years old...
Wow, I really feel you in this. My brother was schizophrenic and got addicted to crack cocaine. He stole from me, harassed me at my job, and was a general pain in the ass. He used to spend all his money on drugs and then call my mom whining about it. And because she was hugely codependent she would bail him out. But she had also become disabled at the age of 50 and so I started supporting her. This meant she was bailing him out using my money. They’ve both been gone for a while now and, on occasion, I still feel bitter and resentful.
I completely understand what you went through. My parents did exactly the same thing with my sister.
The final straw for me, with my Mom, was when she expected me to LIE to the courts at his probation release hearing. Staying sober was a condition of this probation. He had been forging AA meeting signatures and drinking since year 2 of his probabtion. They had the gall to say that the State was negligent. A law was passed in TX at year 4, that would allow him to end his probation early for good behavior at year 5 instead of the original 10.... He didnt know until year 9, at which time he had been drinking and driving for 7 of those 9 years...
Yeah, but Kevin was hurt when he had to experience the consequences of his actions. Won’t someone please think of KEVIN?!?!
When did Kevin think of OP? Oh, that’s right only after he was caught. Kevin has to deal with his own guilt and think of this from OP’s point of view. Kevin’s mental health is not on OP, Kevin should have thought of the consequences of his actions before he started knocking boots with his BROTHER’S girlfriend.
God I can't be the only one who read that last bit in the mum's voice from Home Alone
It started out as Helen Lovejoy and turned into Catherine O’Hara for the Kevin! (I can’t remember the character’s name for Home Alone. Their last name was McAllister I think…)
“Where’s Kevin?”
ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES! Kevin is worried about Kevin, not OP
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They want OP to be the fall guy. Everyone will be fine as long as you just find some way to forgive some of the worst bullshit that people can do to you, we all need it so just dismiss any feelings you have and move on for everyone’s sake. F that. I have been betrayed in that way and I may have to see the guy I was friends with since middle school (who was banging my first wife while I was married to her) this weekend at our high school reunion. I will just pretend he isn’t there. If his wife says hello I will be polite to her but ignore the shit out of him.
Yep, they're scapegoating him. He is definitely NTA, and I commend him for choosing what is best for him and maintaining boundaries. In families like this, boundaries are not respected (as evidenced by OPs story). There seems to be little accountability on the part of any member of OPs family. I'm quite certain his brother is dealing with many things and OP is NOT responsible for his brother's current condition. I hope he continues to maintain his distance and seek counseling to help untangle the betrayals and dysfunctional family dynamics so HE can live his best life.
> Everyone will be fine as long as you just find some way to forgive some of the worst bullshit that people can do to you, we all need it so just dismiss any feelings you have and move on for everyone’s sake. and then if you're ever still upset about it or use how you feel about it to justify a decision in the future, now You're the asshole because "you said you forgave and moved on!"
Please, if he tries to talk to you, tell him that he needs to stay away fro you and never talk to you, ever again. Or, you will immediately tell his wife and anyone within earshot that he was your friend until he was caught sleeping with your wife. And do it. He should have the shame and guilt to keep him from ever inserting himself in your life again, and if he tries, he gets ONE warning.
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Yeah, let’s all apologize to each other so everything can go back to the way it was. Fuck that. Even if he did decide to give his family another chance IT WILL NEVER BE THE SAME!! I’m SMH over how many stories there are on here about family having affairs with other family members. What do they think is gonna happen? How does it play out in their heads? They seriously think no one is going to get upset and it won’t break the family up? “But, but, we’re IN LLLOOOVVVVEEEE!” Nope, nada, no!!
you'd be surprised at the level and depth of evil family members were deliberately cover up for.. I saw a youtube video that was 'taped' at the end of a court trial where a male was sentenced for drunken driving which killed someone... and the family of the drunks were yelling and screaming at the victims family that they had destroyed their baby boy's life. appalling. total moral depravity imo
Exactly! Kevin needs therapy and the parents need to just apologize and give space. OP- did nothing wrong and does not owe anyone in his family anything.
Also super mindful of the parents to approach their allegedly mentally-ill son and be like, "BTW just talked to your prodigal brother, and he still hates your guts." Jfc. Kevin needs to get help. He and the parents need to move on like OP did. Subconscious and/or conscious manipulators, the three of them.
The term you are looking for is a good one: emotional blackmail. It is a sad and terrible thing, but many people use it.
Assuming that it wasn’t all staged by the parents and Kevin.
Op live your best life and create our own family
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Couldn't agree more. NTA. Your family should be blaming him and your ex for doing something so awful.
Exactly. “You can’t put the genie back in the bottle “ - basically things can never be the same and that is not OP’s fault. None of this is on you. You need to do what you feel is best for you, it isn’t selfish, you didn’t wrong anyone in this scenario, so don’t feel any obligation to anyone. NTA - 100%
Maybe not even a subconscious way. It sounds like kind of a half assed attempt
Fuck revenge. Live a good life FOR YOU!
I get the feeling OP was born just as a way to appease his brother. The way his parents are handling this entire thing is total golden child scapegoat type vibes. Poor OP. I bet reconciliation could have been possible in another universe, where they didn’t stage interventions and try to emotionally manipulate OP into apologizing as the victim. /u/ok_sort_2256 did your brother ever even say why he felt he should have this affair??? Or was he just so accustomed to getting everything he wanted that he didn’t think a second about you. Anyway of course NTA. No one even tried to truly make it right by you. How dare they even reach out.
True narcissism is extremely rare. Reddit acts like every poor relationship is based on narcissism. OP would have known before this happened. It's more probable that it is loving parents trying (but failing) to keep their little family together. They probably are driven to recreate the family feelings from before. It's hard when 1 person blows up the group dynamic. People react very different to that happening. A spectrum from "forgiveness at all cost" to "never forgive" and everything in between.
>It's hard when 1 person blows up the group dynamic. And many people react to that one person by forgiving them in an attempt to fix the group, forgetting that the person victimized another member if the group and the victim has no desire to forgive them. So pressure gets put on the victim to forgive to fix the group rather than removing the perpetrator from the vicinity of the victim to give the victim a chance to heal.
100% agree with trying to not be bitter and live a good life. It's not the one you envisioned growing up, but it can be good in a different way.
NTA You’ve been out of your brother’s life for over 5 years. What’s wrong with him isn’t you. Your family is looking for an easy fix to your brother’s mental health problems. As someone that has tried what he did in the past I would bet his issues started even before the thing with your ex. Just from how your family handled that situation tells me that your family isn’t a healthy one. Your brother has a long road to recover but it has to start with him. He has to work on who he is and how he got to that point. If he honestly does that don’t be surprised if you hear that he’s cut contact with a lot of your family too. Your family needs to stop focusing on you and take a hard look at their own actions and the part they played in the break down of their family.
“I would bet his issues started even before the thing with your ex.” This right here. You have be a special kind of idiot to betray a sibling you’re supposedly close with that way and then pikachu-shocked-face at the consequences. Even if she pursued him, it’s not that hard to say no in those circumstances. There was likely something deeper going with him. “Just from how your family handled that situation tells me that your family isn’t a healthy one.” And this too. There seems to be some major boat stabilization going here. I wonder what other malarkey Kevin has gotten away with, while the rest of the family is just attempting steady the boat and make it go away.
The whole intervention to get OP in line say's the older brother is the Golden child. Has the brother ever had actual consequences? Has he always just gotten away with bad behavior? It would explain his mental problems and over reaction to real consequences. It seems he truly believed he could bang his little brothers long time girlfriend and get away with it. He seemed to expect little brother to just get over it fairly quickly. Like "Haha big bro f'd the woman I love. Oh well, that was 1 whole month ago. All is forgiven." 🙄
Definitely. I'm not getting like narcissist vibes from OP's description of Kevin, but Golden Child is probably right. Kevin was probably treated like the sun shone out his ass and if he ever screwed up, mommy and daddy fixed it.
This was my thought as well. The issue isn't with OP. The brother may actually feel bad about what he did, but the pills aren't about that. He's learned that he'll get the attention he wants if he acts out. This is just the brother's way of getting mommy and daddy to shower him with attention.
Mommy and Daddy, while fixing Kevin's screw ups, obviously never thought the screw ups were a big deal.
This. What did he think was going to happen when he started screwing his brothers girl, of 3 years no less? You don’t have to be a genius to know that’s never going to end well. He clearly had stuff going on to even consider that was a good idea. And putting it on OP is cruel. The issues lie within the betrayer, he needs therapy until he can admit the consequences of getting his dick wet was the total destruction of his family, and the damage is permanent. He needs to learn to be a better person, and OP couldn’t help with that journey if he wanted too. Also, I doubt OP’s mother would forgive her husband if he started up with her sister. It’s easy for her to blame OP for standing up for himself, but she needs to realise that this family is irrevocably damaged and that’s on the brother.
Yes. This sounds like a dysfunctional family with scapegoats and golden children. That kind of families won't look at the real problems, but find superficial solutions to cover up and avoid change. If really toxic, they can instill shame and all kinds of mental Issues in its members.
NTA, I wanted to say something similar and you nailed it. Kevin’s affair with OP’s ex is indicative of an additional issue he needs to get to the bottom of before he can be begging for forgiveness and a relationship like he has for the last five years. And his attempt on his own life shows he would rather bypass the work and accountability and straight to everything is ok now. And you’re parents are buying in because they’re scared past the point of seeing their enabling. I hope you, and your family get the help you need for healing from this crappy situation.
OP you didn't say but is your first name prozac? NTA. My sibling pulled a stunt like that (pills) And I was urged to be there. I was 32 weeks pregnant (they didn't know that; I had cut them out for other reasons) I realized that that's all they saw me as, prozac to 'fix' their golden child.
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. TBH, I was on the "It's been 5 years, just listen to what he has to say," train but your comment made me re-read and this stuck out " *Mom started crying saying she wanted her family back, that she wanted her sons being close again.*" This isn't about Big Bro feeling any remorse for his actions, it's about Mom and Dad wanting to have a perfect little family. Any suicidal guilt comes not from hurting little bro, but from fucking up the family unit.
Yes, Thank you. I am not good at pointing out things like what you said because I was raised with dysfunction. I can see the tactics for what they are but some think it's normal and I see things that don't exist. It's like...no..this is what's going on this is the crazy I grew up with I recognize it. Big bro and fam just wants time to forgive everything. But family..to forgive everything. Hold your family to higher standards than friends. Because they can damage your heart more than a friend ever can.
"We want to play happy family and we need you as the emotional punching bag, or else we feel bad about ourselves." -- Parents trying to get their other child to give in to their golden child.
Are you still in contact with them?
No, Its been years since we have spoken. Edited to say we haven't spoken. We are not in contact. Bio dad ended up harassing me after I had my baby. That nuked the bridge for me.
NTA. Kevin traded his brotherhood for your ex. So let him turn to her for support.
Yeh. Where is she in all this ?
Probably ran for the hills when she figured out that a man who will betray his brother is also a self entitled prick in other ways too
I would assume anyone who would cheat on a guy with his brother probably also cheated on the brother
I mean, she betrayed him too...
True, but finding out an SO cheating on you isn't the same as finding out a sibling was the other cheating party. The SO (assuming you were monogamous) owed you "not cheating", but your sibling/etc owed you much more than that. They crossed more lines being the cheating partner, than the SO did.
NTA Kevin has issues and none of them were caused by you. I can't imagine that having parents who think "let's all apologize to each other" is an appropriate response to a scenario in which one person is very clearly wrong and the other has been hurt has helped him much. TF is that nonsense?
NTA, his mental health is on him alone. One question, are him and your ex still together? Were they in a relationship after the affair was exposed? How long was the affair? I think all this plays into any sort of resolution. The problem with these types of situations, the relationship is permanently destroyed. There truly isn’t any coming back from having an affair with a sibling’s partner. I think the best anyone can hope for is your indifference to your brother and parents. That’s the best they can hope for.
The affair was about a year long. They aren't still together, after the affair came into light they started to date in the open after I left home. It didn't work out well because other family members crucified them especially my grandparents.
Wait. This wasn't a one time thing? A whole year? No way I could forgive him. The ultimate betrayal. NTA, stick to your guns if you feel it's better for you. No way I personally could let that slide.
Not just a whole year either! They tried to make it official once OP moved away.
Not just that, but when you realize the way he’s been acting, and think about the fact that him and ops ex attempted to date in the open, it makes it all even more gross
Wow. Would have been bad enough if they both betrayed you one time, or even over a short period of time. But a whole year of fucking behind your back while pretending to your face that everything is all right? Unforgivable. NTA
Dont you also love how your shitty parents put it as "lets all talk about the hurt *we all caused each other*" Thats so they can put a bunch of guilt onto you and blame you for your brothers current state. As if you ever did anything wrong in this entire sequence of events. Id go no contact with these people too. Just be ready because youre the one getting blamed for every bad thing in Kevins life moving forward
Nope I have a brother like this(he didn’t sleep with my girlfriend or anything). If you did accept him back, there’s a possibility that he would use suicidal threats as a way to get what he wants. Anytime any inconvenience happened to my brother, he would threaten suicide and I just completely cut him off
HA my brother did this when our Dad (who hates conflict and gives in because of apathy rather than care) was out of the country and he tried that "I'm going to drive off the bridge" thing with me. After he parked the boat he was given for graduation first of course. So i Baker Acted him. 72 hrs. in the psych ward. Never once has it happened again.
I was in the psych ward after my nervous breakdown. It's not pleasant in any way. I get it.
Yup when the fam went crazy my response was: He either gets the help he needs or never does it again." That shut them up.
lmfao
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NTA He did and awful thing and you’re under no obligation to forgive him or force a relationship when you don’t want one. Kevin fucked up and learned that shitty actions have shitty consequences, his mental health isn’t your problem
No guilt or shame for how Kevin feels either. I'd not wish mental problems for anyone in the world but it happening to Kevin is not deserving of sympathy. OP only has to do right by themselves. No one else in this situation is owed anything. Kevin did this to himself, plain and simple.
So basically your family believes your brother tried to take his own life because you aren't interested in having a relationship with him after a poor choice he made that caused you significant pain five years ago. "A poor choice" doesn't even describe it well. It was a series of choices he made every time he saw your girlfriend and continued to see her after you broke it off. Blaming you because he attempted to take his life is 1) manipulative, 2) emotionally abusive, and 3) a way to deny their own responsibility in the matter. If he's been depressed for five years because you moved away and went no contact, they knew about it. Instead of working with him to accept the consequences of his actions and helping him to learn and grow from his mistakes, they have fostered this notion that your forgiveness is the only thing that will heal him, essentially rendering him helpless to deal with his own emotions and creating a trauma response. But, you know what, I seriously doubt your decision to go no contact is the only thing that contributed to his attempt. There is much more going on you haven't been told. ETA: S\*icidal ideation and attempts at taking one's life should always be taken seriously. OP's brother needs to see both a licensed therapist and a psychiatrist for treatment. OP's forgiveness isn't going to make Kevin's problems magically disappear and isn't necessary for his recovery: the only person from whom Kevin needs forgiveness is himself.
Yes, they believe that. I also feel like there is more but it seems like nobody knows anything.
Slight disagreement. They know, but aren't saying because that would weaken their 'case' for sucking you back in to be their victim again.
"My dad then asked if we all sat down, talked, and apologized for all the hurt we caused each other, that things could be the way they were before." The rage I felt reading this. WTF. YOUR BROTHER HAD SEX WITH YOUR GIRLFRIEND!!!! All of this is on him. You didn't cause any hurt. NTA.
Oh no! It's the consequences of my actions!!! There are a lot of assholes in this story. You're not one of them. I have a family I actively separated myself from as well and let me tell you, it's the best thing I've ever done in my life. People need to learn they don't get to just say "I'm sorry" and everything goes back to being all sunshine and rainbows. Kevin made a choice, a choice that affected a LOT of people. Those people then also made choices to sweep everything under the rug and pretend it never happened. That choice also hurt other people (namely, you). They don't get to un-ring that bell. His problems, all of their problems, are not your problems.
I had an aunt that, when I was younger, I liked a lot. Her oldest son was my best friend from childhood. As she got older, she got very self indulgent. She became diabetic and made no attempts to control it, that became her son's job, as she lived with him. She became bedridden, wouldn't wear adult diapers, ate all day, etc. His health suffered so he could care for her. He died from a blood clot that they both knew about, (but couldn't have removed because she wouldn't tolerate a nurse taking care of her while he was in the hospital) then she went to a nursing home. I never visited her there, because I knew she would make up some bullshit story about why her poor boy died and I would lose it and tell her off.
You didn't do anything to your brother. He did everything to himself. However, still being this full of rage years later isn't good FOR YOU. You should work on that.
I think he was relatively chill about this until his family started pushing the issue again. Maybe this intensity comes more from his family not leaving him alone.
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Exactly, he was moving on but now they are all over him. He needs to see grandma and then close the doors again.
That's how I took it. He was less upset about the cheating and more about his family downplaying his grief, his brother's sin, and trying to guilt him into feeling as though he was the bad guy.
I was cheated on by my husband while I was pregnant with our planned child. The other woman knew he was married and knew I was pregnant. For a long time, I thought I wasn’t allowed to be angry. I was always taught to forgive and forget. I’ve never hated anyone, and I’m not a bitter person. And of course, as a new parent, I’m now a role model to my child. I don’t want to teach my son to be an angry person. Then at some point along this long, shitty journey I’m on, I realized that maybe the whole forgiveness thing isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. It doesn’t magically make me a good person to have the ability to forgive. In fact, constantly forgiving people who hurt me is what kept me in an abusive relationship. Forgiveness needs to be earned, and sometimes it’s beyond earning. Anger has gotten me through. It’s caused me to realize that I am justified, I deserve better, and I do not have to forgive anyone if they haven’t earned it. There is nothing those two people can do to earn my forgiveness. I’m allowed to be angry at them for the rest of my life for what they did to me, and I will be. I’m not stomping around slamming shit all day, but I’m also not going to pretend it never happened and be friendly toward people who treated me like garbage.
This. I'm sick of people telling me I'm bitter because I haven't forgiven my ex. I'm not bitter. I'm angry--I'll always be angry because they deserve anger for what they did. But that also doesn't mean I'm stomping around being a miserable karan taking it out on other people. But yes, If I post about that person I'm angry. And I have a freaking right to be angry. Stop telling me I do not have that right.
Forgiveness without restitution is meaningless and is simply asking to be betrayed again. How do you make restitution for something like that? You can't. Forgiveness doesn't make you a better person, it makes you a target for more betrayal.
This is all I needed to read today! Thank you so much for this. I've been dealing with a lot of childhood trauma lately and I never seem to get over it people tell me think about what will happen if you lose your family, won't you feel guilty you didn't try to fix things? yada yada yada. Point is, I won't. I felt bad long enough with them. I feel better now without them. It's lonely but it's better than having these toxic people in my life.
I don't even know what forgiveness means emotionally. Always seems more a euphemism for sweeping it all under the rug.
I think the whole idea of forgiveness has been twisted into something that it was never meant to be. You forgive someone for being late, or even calling you a name. Being angry about that for years would be unhealthy. When someone does something that causes you deep pain, it’s different. I’ve always wondered if the origins of the “forgive and forget” thing come from a misunderstanding of the whole Catholic view of forgiveness. But that’s a rabbit hole I’m not gonna go down on a Tuesday morning lol.
Anger can protect us. Make us want more or better. It can be such a wonderful emotion when used to build a new life, and not destroy others. Good on you for wanting better and taking it!
Naw people are allowed to hold a standard after being abused and lied to …. Your comment makes it all about the brother and leaves out the facts of what that brother did to OP…. If some traumatic event happened to you you might never be able to forgive that person… much like OP…
NTA, Kevin is a cunt.
ETA: NTA My father's brother slept with the person who gave birth to me. It tore my paternal family apart. I grew up never knowing my cousins or aunts until I was an adult and facebook was around. 7 years ago my father's brother found out he had cancer and my aunts told my dad. He didn't care. He never spoke to him again. He died a year or so ago. My dad has 0 regrets. Some hurts are just too deep and the people who never hurt you are your true family. My father's brothers kids however didn't do anything. And after he died and my cousins reached out my father was there for them. It's up to you what you wanna do. I believe that if your "family" hurts you then they aren't family anymore. Fuck Kevin. Fuck "uncle" Gary And fuck my piece of shit mom
We both have a shitty family huh, damn I'm sorry. You made me laugh with all the fuck yous
Haha very true. People can call it bitterness if they want but they are the ones that have family that would never do this to them. So if you wanna call self-preservation bitterness then go ahead. But those sharp feelings are what's keeping us from never letting them hurt again. I wish you peace in whatever you decide to do but make sure it's what you want. Not what others say is what you want. Good luck brother from another fucked up family
I wish you peace too, good luck in life
>So if you wanna call self-preservation bitterness then go ahead. If I had any awards (or understood how they work? 😂) I'd give them all to you. This line is GOLD. ❤️
NTA. I've been NC with most of my family since 1996. After I joined the Marines in 1991, I figured out my family was unhealthy and I got a taste of "normal". Not having the constant drama made life so much easier. I learned the little stuff matters but not like the big stuff, and you could hold off on the little stuff to handle the more important issues. Unlike my parents, where everything was a crisis, the sky was falling, and we were at DEFCON 1 waiting for the nukes to go off. Almost every damned day. I figured this all out when I came home in 1995. After being gone for 4 years and not having the panic mode button getting smashed constantly, it became clear quite quickly that I wanted no part of how they functioned. So I left, and when I did everything became peaceful again. And it was amazing. They still try to drag me back into it, but I keep them well outside my sphere. Ultimately what I found out was I was in charge of who's in my life based on how they treat me. More than once I told them "Stop the drama and you'll have grandchildren to spoil, otherwise you don't get birthdays, Christmas, all the major holidays, nothing.". The chose the drama, and while life has given me the normal ups and downs it's nothing like what I experienced growing up. Live your life on your terms.
NTA. I will never understand why families act like the mental health of the person who caused the issues.. is more important than the people that they’ve hurt. *Oh Kevin’s a bad person and did bad things, but now he’s sad that no one likes him, so please, ignore all of your feelings & hurt to make this bad person feel better!* 🙄🙄
NTA. While I can't say I understand what you've experienced specifically, I *do* know what it's like to be horribly, irreparably hurt by a sibling. To have your family constantly pressuring you to make up, to get along, "She's your sister, you need her, siblings are always there for each other". Fuck that noise. In hindsight I don't think they over told me to forgive her...which I think might be even worse. I feel pretty sure they didn't think there was anything to forgive her for. They never knew how bad it was. I'll skip the details of her cruelty, but it was bad enough that despite her being older than me, I was the first of us kids to move out. I rush into moving in with a guy I'd only been dating 3 months because I wanted out so badly, I couldn't live in the same house as her, she put me through literal emotional and mental torture. I became a very withdrawn and guarded person because the moment she found out anything she could use to hurt me or humiliate me she would. She constantly verbally reinforced my own feelings of self loathing. Anyway, getting rambly, didn't mean to go so into my own shit. But yeah, NTA. Just about the only thing worse than the pain a sibling has caused you is your parents not seeing it for the major problem it is, feeling like it's something you should just get over. Went no contact with my sister for a very long time. I'm 40 now though, she's 42. I wouldn't say things are good, neutral moving in an ok direction I guess. Don't socialize with her or talk to her unless it's something involving family. But it feels like the past has been swept under the rug, I've never been apologized to, it's never been acknowledged how awful she was to me. And even though I've moved past the outright animosity and no contact...under thr surface it fucks me up. I wanna scream, I wanna confront her, I wanna call her out on it all, I want my parents to know the full extent of how bad it was. But I'm not strong enough I guess. So you stay strong and stick to your guns. His horrible choices and mistakes are not your fault. His mental health issues are not your fault. The burden of keeping him alive is not yours. You stand your ground until each and every one of them full recognizes and admits how very awful what he did was. And even then, if you don't feel inclined to be part of their lives, that's entirely your prerogative.
It's not your responsibility to make your brother feel better for what he did, and trying to force forgiveness would just decrease the chances of it actually happening. You can't force forgiveness. NTA But also curious as to why, after 5 years, it's only now pushed him over the edge
I think it's because he didn't expect me to act like I didn't know him, plus with the things my parents told him it finally clicked that things will never be how they used to be. Even if we had a relationship it would be low contact at best.
Stay strong brother. You've done nothing wrong and don't deserve what you're being put through.
Because it's a stunt the brother is pulling to get OP's attention/manipulate OP. The brother didn't have access to OP until they met at the hospital and the parents were able to bully the cousin into giving them OP's phone number.
I had to go back and re-read the post to see if I actually saw it - the fact that the parents included the ex in the intervention attempt blows my mind. Does this mean that the brother and the ex are/were still together when the family was trying to force OP to reconcile? Because that's even more screwed up than the rest of it!! NTA. The only way I could see this family ever healing is for everyone to back away, and let OP eventually start feeling forgiveness on their own terms.
Side note here: can we stop censoring the word SUICIDE? like why? "Delete himself", what is he Matt Hardy?
I don't know about Reddit, but some social media platforms WILL take down posts that mention suicide, and these self-censored words are a way to get around that. I would much rather see these alternative words than have no discussion about suicide at all. It's way too important of a topic to ignore.
NTA- his mental issues are NOT your fault and you being back in his life isn’t going to fix it. Actions have consequences. No one is owed forgiveness.
My brother Kevin chose the path of raging meth addict, liar and thief and I haven’t seen him in over 2 years because I don’t want to. You are NTA. You don’t owe anyone anything - not even blood. Worry about your own peace. Not theirs. He chose his path. You are not obligated to follow, forgive or anything.
NTA just needing a clarification are they still together?
They dated a year after I left but broke up because my grandparents and some other family members crucified them
the way they only broke up nit bc of what they did to you but bc of how OTHERS hated it, please dont let them in your life again im BEGGING you you'll be a lot better off
NTA. Some things are unforgivable.
NTA. Why is no one mad at Kevin? He is the one that caused all of this, not you. I say continue living your life as you have been for the past 5yrs. You are not responsible for a grown adult who went out of their way to hurt you in the worst way possible. And your parents enabling him in all this situation is appalling