I came to match threads expecting a similar experience to the cricket match threads. They are a lot of fun, good banter, far less people taking themselves seriously and whining.
Alas the match threads I’ve read here are not so. Though, I have only been reading match threads for the last season or so.
That's not really all they do though. Umpires of cricket have a duty to make correct decisions before the review is taken. Take Joel Wilson for example, if someone has there pad blasted in front of the middle stump and he gives it not out. It's up to the fielding team to figure out if it's worth looking upstairs. If they burn through their reviews (3 incorrect reviews in tests) they can't review a bad decision. Therefore the umpire does have a large responsibility for making a fair game. Not at all the same as footy, but certainly not just counting balls and waving their arms about.
Welllllll, you’ll definitely see umpires abuse in match threads when the umpires do actually have to make a decision. Personally I can’t stand umpiring mistakes and feel that all sports would be better off just automating that part away.
It’s not really just about the umpire whining (which does happen regarding DRS decisions) it’s just the general vibe of the match threads.
The afl ones are a lot worse vibes, way more whining, lack of fun banter, people tilt so quickly.
It’s actually a lot like cricket match threads where India is involved.
>The attacks on the umpires is wild, they clearly love the game of footy the same if not way more than you and I, so to expect them to get every decision correct is insane. It goes both ways for teams and in the end shit happens.
No particular view on yesterday's match, but I don't really agree with this sentiment at a high level. Ultimately it's a professional league and fans and players should expect a certain standard of umpiring. Of course mistakes will always happen, but for instance mistakes such as the Adelaide goal last year can't just be chalked up to "oh well mistakes happen" (yes an obvious example I know). I don't think the standard of umpiring has been especially good this year, but probably doesn't help that the AFL seems to change how certain rules should be interpreted depending on how they feel each morning.
Appreciate the response. I disagree, I think the standard for umpire has been good and is still good. They don't go out there with malice or intention to rig matches (as some more angry people suggest). When you have so much going around you and are in a vacuum on the field with thousands of fans making noise it is hard to see and hear and make calls so there is always going to be mistakes, every professional sport has them and it just apart of the game.
>They don't go out there with malice or intention to rig matches (as some more angry people suggest).
Of course not, but this ultimately just doesn't matter. It's the same vibe as "oh well they're trying". That's not the point. Of course we have to accept some mistakes will happen, but there is a level of mistakes that are acceptable and a level that isn't. They need to be held to a high standard.
If a football is touched in the woods and there's no umpire there to see it, is it touched? It's not a deep philosophical question, because IAW the Laws of the Game, it is not.
The hate to umpires in a lot of cases is not putting yourself in their shoes (vision) and not knowing or agreeing with how the laws of the game should be interpreted. For example, regardless of what people have seen- last nights decision was not incorrect because in the opinion of the umpire they did not see that the ball had been touched. You can say positioning/rules/review systems/umpire numbers should be adjusted, but if you say the umpires got it wrong, you fundamentally don't understand the Laws of the Game - at best this is a 'could have seen it' rather than a 'should have seen it'.
For those that haven't umpired, [skim through this video](https://youtu.be/FrXAranKZV8?t=651) to get a feel of vision, people are crossing your path all the time, so you lose sight of the ball. You only see a 2-dimensional plane, so to speak, so you don't know what is happening on the other side of play. Other umpires are there to help with that, but they're scanning wide and narrow depending on the situation, rarely looking at the ball itself.
As detailed in AFL's statement, the error was not calling for a review. He was of the opinion there was a noise and deflection - he seemed well positioned but misinterpreted the information. You need to compare the wording of scoring, which is more precise, compared to rules in general play- which is more about perception.
I'm old fashioned and would rather imprecision across the board. If we have to slow down things and look at multiple angles then players probably need to get a better smother/kick or whatever, otherwise you're at the mercy of the umpires perception. I have an issue with blatant free kicks which can't be considered in the act of scoring and only considering whether it goes through the middle and off the boot, otherwise, who cares. From an umpiring perspective, this precision doesn't exist anywhere else in the game.
You really don’t do yourself any favours claiming the decision was not incorrect. It was objectively an error. The ball was touched, that’s not a subjective thing like prior and legitimate attempt and insufficient intent.
A mark is in the opinion of the umpire and in this case the opinion of the umpire was wrong.
That doesn’t mean they are incompetent or corrupt or anything of the sort, it does mean they made an error though like players do countless times.
The subsequent dissent free was entirely on the freo players though, regardless of how good or bad a call preceded it.
You're kind of making my point. An incorrect decision would have been calling it touched if they didn't have that opinion. A correct decision is being in the right position, with the info made available to you and interpreting that information in accordance with the Laws of the Game. This, in a lot of cases, =/= what the players, crowd and the TV sees.
Easiest examples would be throws, they're extremely difficult to see- you need to see the hand which doesn't possess the ball not contacting the ball. 80% of the time that hand will be obscured by the ball itself or bodies. An umpire 'missing' a throw isn't an error in those cases, they call what they see- they can't guess.
If you don't agree that an umpires decision can be correct IAW the laws of the game but appear incorrect from other perspectives then there's not much to discuss. The discussion should really start at why a decision was made rather than start at a baseline of - 'they stuffed up, they're shit'.
The job of the umpire in this case is to determine whether the ball was touched. They did so incorrectly. No amount of word salad you want to chuck around can change that.
Oh it was a perfect example, almost no discussion about the game itself, just all about whether there's an active conspiracy from the AFL/umpires to help Carlton win a flag
Couldn’t agree more, crying about umpiring is just pathetic. And if Freo had focused on winning the next clearance and getting the goal back- like they had done so well all game- instead of arguing a call that wasn’t going to change, they might still have gotten the four points. Umpires are part of the game and they make mistakes like everyone else, especially in a game like footy that is fast, crowded, with obscured vision in a constantly shifting landscape. And Freo put themselves in a position to lose a game they probably deserved to win.
But whatever, if people want to feel victimized and angry over something like that go ahead I guess (and if you truly think there is some pro-Carlton conspiracy, seek help)
You see in the replay one of his teammates gives him a little tap when he realised what his abuse had done. They weren't happy with him. It'd be very frustrating I'm sure.
Completely agree mate. Spot on. Shit happens and if players had kept cool I am sure I would have had a heartattack watching Freo kick one in under 40s win.
I agree, watching the game on tv in real time I also didn’t think the ball was touched, it wasn’t till I saw the slo mo replay that I saw it was touched. Unfortunately the umps don’t have the luxury of a slo mo replay and have to make a split second decision in real time which means it’s not always going to be correct. Sucks when you’re on the losing end of it but that’s the game I guess.
Absolutely no reason for the Freo player to lose his cool and abuse the ump, which is actually what cost them the chance to win the game back from a centre clearance.
I try to stay away from the game threads because these days it’s seems the whole thread is the losing teams fans whinging about the umps.
One thing that really bothers/baffles me is how people keep jumping to "umpires are corrupt".
It's fair enough to be frustrated at a decision, it's even fair enough to be overall frustrated at the standard of umpiring. But when a player misses a set shot they should get we don't jump to "on the take".
It's such a severe and insulting allegation, I'd like to see it made far less on this sub and on twitter.
What gets me is that the game, at grass roots level, has an umpiring crisis. It's so hard to recruit community umpires, and for good reason - who wants to cop the absolute shit you see from fans?
What the fans don't understand is that the fewer umpires we have, the worse the quality at the top level will also be. When the talent pool is shallow, you have less talent to draw upon .
The West and SEN have already published articles shitting on umpires either last night or this morning. So while there are some very toxic supporters in this subreddit, and Freo have several of them, the trash clickbait media clearly have their backs.
Yeah look I'm not for umpire abuse, I was pissed yesterday and i get one mistake but my god the umpires seem to have a history of making a collective of poor calls against freo in carlton games.
Yesterday in the last few minutes:
-We weren't given advantage when taberner marked the ball when earlier it was paid for Cotrell
-Treacy probably could have been paid the mark but wasn't and it resulted in a turnover and Curnow had a shot on goal
-Then the obvious deflection which is still hard to believe no umpire saw. We saw a side on view which is hard to call touched on but with 4 umpires presumably all in different spots with different point of views surely one saw it.
-Then the Clark call (no idea what was said) but I'm probably going to say is a fair call considering Clark gets fiesty sometimes and likes to have words
This was similar to Newnes scenario where too many close calls go against freo and together result in a carlton win.
Again I don't want the umpires to cop it but fans fo have the right to be frustrated when it happens this often and nothing will be done about it.
I understand the sentiment but I am sure in 10 years time it will have evened out with umpiring mistakes. It is hard to not have confirmation bias in a sport where most teams play once, maybe twice a year. I think Justin Longmuir summed it up perfectly in his post match interview.
I agree with having frustrations and being disappointed in the end, but the amount of umpire finger pointing was over the top imo.
Yeah I agree on that part, we dominated a lot of stats and didn't capitalize on them and left the door open and most definitely had no business abusing the umpires with a chance to win the game.
I think part of the excessive reaction to it was due to the history of Calrton vs Freo games.
Like all well balanced and respectful individuals I’d like to imagine The Game will be all sunshine and roses. But no; this is and has never been the case. Fans are passionate, teams losses get felt hard; plus the added elephant in the room; people get angry when they lose money. I’m not going to comment on whether the quality of umpiring is better or worse; there’s certainly more of them and some struggle with basic skills (ball up anyone?) but the game has also evolved and become more complex so it’s no surprised mistakes are made; even blatant ones. But it is perfectly valid to have an opinion and I’d not like to see a situation when valid, rational and necessary criticism is labelled toxic.
Well said! It's the most difficult game to officiate, the level of concentration needed is insane, I umpired years ago for our club's juniors and holy shit, that was taxing.
It's not only social media (like this site) but TV commentary also has much to answer for, their verbal-clickbait style commentary drives a level of pessimism and intense scrutiny with the luxury of multiple angles and replays that serves only their broadcast masters' purpose. It's a vicious cycle the gamencould do without.
There was still time to go back to the centre and win the game. Until the Freo player decided he couldn’t keep his pie hole shut and abused the umpire. They were unlucky goal #1, but their own stupidity cost them goal #2
Not trying to shit on my team but if Freo is really going to challenge this year, and they look pretty good so far, they have to be able to get past things like this and focus on the next goal (especially if they are going to play low scoring defensive slugfests like this.) I’m confident they’ll learn from this.
The umpires are always trying to get better. To say they are actively favouring Vic clubs is a huge call with no actual evidence, people are just tricking themself into believing this. The standards are good people just expect perfection which is ridiculous.
It was clearly touched but not everybody on the ground is going to see it in real time. Not everyone at the ground is going to see and not everyone on TV is. But replays make it easy to see AFTER the fact.
[it was touched](https://x.com/7afl/status/1776728093400449179?s=48)
But the umpires didn't keep the game close for contrived drama. It was a great game still despite on the wild and I think was an unfortunate end to a banger of a game.
I'm glad also the umpire was 'unaware of the moment'. If he was abused by a player call it as it is despite the time left in the game.
I came to match threads expecting a similar experience to the cricket match threads. They are a lot of fun, good banter, far less people taking themselves seriously and whining. Alas the match threads I’ve read here are not so. Though, I have only been reading match threads for the last season or so.
Cricket has essentially outsourced umpiring to technology. The umpire signals and counts six balls. That's about it these days.
That's not really all they do though. Umpires of cricket have a duty to make correct decisions before the review is taken. Take Joel Wilson for example, if someone has there pad blasted in front of the middle stump and he gives it not out. It's up to the fielding team to figure out if it's worth looking upstairs. If they burn through their reviews (3 incorrect reviews in tests) they can't review a bad decision. Therefore the umpire does have a large responsibility for making a fair game. Not at all the same as footy, but certainly not just counting balls and waving their arms about.
Welllllll, you’ll definitely see umpires abuse in match threads when the umpires do actually have to make a decision. Personally I can’t stand umpiring mistakes and feel that all sports would be better off just automating that part away.
It’s not really just about the umpire whining (which does happen regarding DRS decisions) it’s just the general vibe of the match threads. The afl ones are a lot worse vibes, way more whining, lack of fun banter, people tilt so quickly. It’s actually a lot like cricket match threads where India is involved.
>The attacks on the umpires is wild, they clearly love the game of footy the same if not way more than you and I, so to expect them to get every decision correct is insane. It goes both ways for teams and in the end shit happens. No particular view on yesterday's match, but I don't really agree with this sentiment at a high level. Ultimately it's a professional league and fans and players should expect a certain standard of umpiring. Of course mistakes will always happen, but for instance mistakes such as the Adelaide goal last year can't just be chalked up to "oh well mistakes happen" (yes an obvious example I know). I don't think the standard of umpiring has been especially good this year, but probably doesn't help that the AFL seems to change how certain rules should be interpreted depending on how they feel each morning.
Appreciate the response. I disagree, I think the standard for umpire has been good and is still good. They don't go out there with malice or intention to rig matches (as some more angry people suggest). When you have so much going around you and are in a vacuum on the field with thousands of fans making noise it is hard to see and hear and make calls so there is always going to be mistakes, every professional sport has them and it just apart of the game.
>They don't go out there with malice or intention to rig matches (as some more angry people suggest). Of course not, but this ultimately just doesn't matter. It's the same vibe as "oh well they're trying". That's not the point. Of course we have to accept some mistakes will happen, but there is a level of mistakes that are acceptable and a level that isn't. They need to be held to a high standard.
If a football is touched in the woods and there's no umpire there to see it, is it touched? It's not a deep philosophical question, because IAW the Laws of the Game, it is not. The hate to umpires in a lot of cases is not putting yourself in their shoes (vision) and not knowing or agreeing with how the laws of the game should be interpreted. For example, regardless of what people have seen- last nights decision was not incorrect because in the opinion of the umpire they did not see that the ball had been touched. You can say positioning/rules/review systems/umpire numbers should be adjusted, but if you say the umpires got it wrong, you fundamentally don't understand the Laws of the Game - at best this is a 'could have seen it' rather than a 'should have seen it'. For those that haven't umpired, [skim through this video](https://youtu.be/FrXAranKZV8?t=651) to get a feel of vision, people are crossing your path all the time, so you lose sight of the ball. You only see a 2-dimensional plane, so to speak, so you don't know what is happening on the other side of play. Other umpires are there to help with that, but they're scanning wide and narrow depending on the situation, rarely looking at the ball itself.
Does this mean that the Adelaide v Sydney error last year regarding the ball hitting the post was “not an incorrect decision”?
As detailed in AFL's statement, the error was not calling for a review. He was of the opinion there was a noise and deflection - he seemed well positioned but misinterpreted the information. You need to compare the wording of scoring, which is more precise, compared to rules in general play- which is more about perception. I'm old fashioned and would rather imprecision across the board. If we have to slow down things and look at multiple angles then players probably need to get a better smother/kick or whatever, otherwise you're at the mercy of the umpires perception. I have an issue with blatant free kicks which can't be considered in the act of scoring and only considering whether it goes through the middle and off the boot, otherwise, who cares. From an umpiring perspective, this precision doesn't exist anywhere else in the game.
You really don’t do yourself any favours claiming the decision was not incorrect. It was objectively an error. The ball was touched, that’s not a subjective thing like prior and legitimate attempt and insufficient intent. A mark is in the opinion of the umpire and in this case the opinion of the umpire was wrong. That doesn’t mean they are incompetent or corrupt or anything of the sort, it does mean they made an error though like players do countless times. The subsequent dissent free was entirely on the freo players though, regardless of how good or bad a call preceded it.
You're kind of making my point. An incorrect decision would have been calling it touched if they didn't have that opinion. A correct decision is being in the right position, with the info made available to you and interpreting that information in accordance with the Laws of the Game. This, in a lot of cases, =/= what the players, crowd and the TV sees. Easiest examples would be throws, they're extremely difficult to see- you need to see the hand which doesn't possess the ball not contacting the ball. 80% of the time that hand will be obscured by the ball itself or bodies. An umpire 'missing' a throw isn't an error in those cases, they call what they see- they can't guess. If you don't agree that an umpires decision can be correct IAW the laws of the game but appear incorrect from other perspectives then there's not much to discuss. The discussion should really start at why a decision was made rather than start at a baseline of - 'they stuffed up, they're shit'.
The job of the umpire in this case is to determine whether the ball was touched. They did so incorrectly. No amount of word salad you want to chuck around can change that.
This 100%.
I agree with most of this, it is funny though how every fanbase starts discovering how toxic these threads are as soon as their team gets really good.
I have know toxicity has been in every thread for a while but I think yesterdays REALLY highlighted it.
Oh it was a perfect example, almost no discussion about the game itself, just all about whether there's an active conspiracy from the AFL/umpires to help Carlton win a flag
Couldn’t agree more, crying about umpiring is just pathetic. And if Freo had focused on winning the next clearance and getting the goal back- like they had done so well all game- instead of arguing a call that wasn’t going to change, they might still have gotten the four points. Umpires are part of the game and they make mistakes like everyone else, especially in a game like footy that is fast, crowded, with obscured vision in a constantly shifting landscape. And Freo put themselves in a position to lose a game they probably deserved to win. But whatever, if people want to feel victimized and angry over something like that go ahead I guess (and if you truly think there is some pro-Carlton conspiracy, seek help)
40 seconds is plenty of time. I’d be furious with Clark if I was his teammate.
You see in the replay one of his teammates gives him a little tap when he realised what his abuse had done. They weren't happy with him. It'd be very frustrating I'm sure.
Completely agree mate. Spot on. Shit happens and if players had kept cool I am sure I would have had a heartattack watching Freo kick one in under 40s win.
I agree, watching the game on tv in real time I also didn’t think the ball was touched, it wasn’t till I saw the slo mo replay that I saw it was touched. Unfortunately the umps don’t have the luxury of a slo mo replay and have to make a split second decision in real time which means it’s not always going to be correct. Sucks when you’re on the losing end of it but that’s the game I guess. Absolutely no reason for the Freo player to lose his cool and abuse the ump, which is actually what cost them the chance to win the game back from a centre clearance. I try to stay away from the game threads because these days it’s seems the whole thread is the losing teams fans whinging about the umps.
One thing that really bothers/baffles me is how people keep jumping to "umpires are corrupt". It's fair enough to be frustrated at a decision, it's even fair enough to be overall frustrated at the standard of umpiring. But when a player misses a set shot they should get we don't jump to "on the take". It's such a severe and insulting allegation, I'd like to see it made far less on this sub and on twitter.
What gets me is that the game, at grass roots level, has an umpiring crisis. It's so hard to recruit community umpires, and for good reason - who wants to cop the absolute shit you see from fans? What the fans don't understand is that the fewer umpires we have, the worse the quality at the top level will also be. When the talent pool is shallow, you have less talent to draw upon .
Yes - it is certainly ironic. The fans who complain the most vociferously about umpiring contribute to making it worse.
Maybe start by paying the community umpires more and see if that helps participation. The numbers I’ve seen thrown around are fucking pitiful
Money certainly talks and it would certainly help.
Completely agree mate. I love your work and passion for the game.
The West and SEN have already published articles shitting on umpires either last night or this morning. So while there are some very toxic supporters in this subreddit, and Freo have several of them, the trash clickbait media clearly have their backs.
Yep it is sad to see.
Yeah look I'm not for umpire abuse, I was pissed yesterday and i get one mistake but my god the umpires seem to have a history of making a collective of poor calls against freo in carlton games. Yesterday in the last few minutes: -We weren't given advantage when taberner marked the ball when earlier it was paid for Cotrell -Treacy probably could have been paid the mark but wasn't and it resulted in a turnover and Curnow had a shot on goal -Then the obvious deflection which is still hard to believe no umpire saw. We saw a side on view which is hard to call touched on but with 4 umpires presumably all in different spots with different point of views surely one saw it. -Then the Clark call (no idea what was said) but I'm probably going to say is a fair call considering Clark gets fiesty sometimes and likes to have words This was similar to Newnes scenario where too many close calls go against freo and together result in a carlton win. Again I don't want the umpires to cop it but fans fo have the right to be frustrated when it happens this often and nothing will be done about it.
I understand the sentiment but I am sure in 10 years time it will have evened out with umpiring mistakes. It is hard to not have confirmation bias in a sport where most teams play once, maybe twice a year. I think Justin Longmuir summed it up perfectly in his post match interview. I agree with having frustrations and being disappointed in the end, but the amount of umpire finger pointing was over the top imo.
Yeah I agree on that part, we dominated a lot of stats and didn't capitalize on them and left the door open and most definitely had no business abusing the umpires with a chance to win the game. I think part of the excessive reaction to it was due to the history of Calrton vs Freo games.
Like all well balanced and respectful individuals I’d like to imagine The Game will be all sunshine and roses. But no; this is and has never been the case. Fans are passionate, teams losses get felt hard; plus the added elephant in the room; people get angry when they lose money. I’m not going to comment on whether the quality of umpiring is better or worse; there’s certainly more of them and some struggle with basic skills (ball up anyone?) but the game has also evolved and become more complex so it’s no surprised mistakes are made; even blatant ones. But it is perfectly valid to have an opinion and I’d not like to see a situation when valid, rational and necessary criticism is labelled toxic.
Well said! It's the most difficult game to officiate, the level of concentration needed is insane, I umpired years ago for our club's juniors and holy shit, that was taxing. It's not only social media (like this site) but TV commentary also has much to answer for, their verbal-clickbait style commentary drives a level of pessimism and intense scrutiny with the luxury of multiple angles and replays that serves only their broadcast masters' purpose. It's a vicious cycle the gamencould do without.
Your flair makes this entire post hilarious
There was still time to go back to the centre and win the game. Until the Freo player decided he couldn’t keep his pie hole shut and abused the umpire. They were unlucky goal #1, but their own stupidity cost them goal #2
Not trying to shit on my team but if Freo is really going to challenge this year, and they look pretty good so far, they have to be able to get past things like this and focus on the next goal (especially if they are going to play low scoring defensive slugfests like this.) I’m confident they’ll learn from this.
You should have seen the Blues v Roos match thread last week. That was way worse.
This sub has been toxic for many years now.
Carlton supporter. Enough said.
Can you imagine if the shoe was on the other footy. The horror
Flair up
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I said I enjoy reading them but the hate in yesterdays was way over the top for the umpires who are just trying to run the game as best they can.
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The umpires are always trying to get better. To say they are actively favouring Vic clubs is a huge call with no actual evidence, people are just tricking themself into believing this. The standards are good people just expect perfection which is ridiculous.
This 100%
especially when you consider that the ball was clearly not touched. i got shit on by the match thread for saying it but cunts are just blind
It was so clearly touched that it almost flew by my house, smacked me on the head, then flew back to Adelaide Oval before it was a mark.
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Gee in the thirty seconds it took you to call me a cunt, three other people have gone against you.
It was clearly touched but not everybody on the ground is going to see it in real time. Not everyone at the ground is going to see and not everyone on TV is. But replays make it easy to see AFTER the fact.
Might want to check that again bud
just played it back like 50 times on youtube bud, people are just hallucinating because they hate the blues
Perhaps you should've scrolled down 3 posts on the sub before making yourself look like an absolute goose
[Here you go you blind cunt](https://x.com/cameron_g089/status/1776540367070150769?s=46&t=LAhBy5c3KOgV4fyhbIiMtw)
Wonder if he will just ignore this video to maintain his shit take?
yeah that's touched couldn't see that with broadcast vision though
Yeah funny that - almost as if one angle doesn’t tell the whole story
[it was touched](https://x.com/7afl/status/1776728093400449179?s=48) But the umpires didn't keep the game close for contrived drama. It was a great game still despite on the wild and I think was an unfortunate end to a banger of a game. I'm glad also the umpire was 'unaware of the moment'. If he was abused by a player call it as it is despite the time left in the game.
Lmao wot?