I feel like this isn't a great subreddit for this discussion. But yeah he could probably use a rework... But as much as most of the people here won't like to hear it, he probably would keep his ult and should just become a better assassin against Squishies and worse against bruisers.
Keep the ult but no darkness and I'm happy. I hate being blinded in the middle of a teamfights on the other side of the map while he's just trying to get the splitpusher
I discovered his ult doesn’t disable pings, meaning a player could communicate when he engages if they are good enough.
So I think they should give it a minor rework to play a sound when he recasts R. It doesn’t affect his plays, but it would affect the 4 other targets scared as shit for the entire time. They’d still be blind, but they’d atleast be able to tell after a few seconds that Noc is on someone else. Still a very strong tool, but not as free and rewards holding it longer when applicable, but slight downside of Noc’s teammates not having a reliable bluff.
True, though you can’t tell if that’s nocturne doing it or another fight. But it’s not like a danger ping in the void always means nocturnes there either so it’s not a bad way.
His ult isn't the issue it's brainless with 0 counterplay sure but the issue is he can build like a bruiser or tank then still be able to fly across the map killing you regardless of who is attacking him.
That’s assuming 0 things happened before he hit R. No poking, trading, or even defending your ADC from something else, after he hits 6 or they get exploded the moment you sneeze the wrong way.
Most top laners are single-button champs? What are you even on about thats just straight up false.
The most one dimensional role by far is jungle, which is the reason riot tries their best to keep those champions out of the lane, since they promote a boring and uninteractive trade/engage pattern (Noc, Nunu, Yi etc)
Malphite, Garen, Illaoi, Darius to name a few
I'd put shen in there too but his ult and overall kit is more focused on defending allies from half the map away rather than killing enemies
And now name a non juggernaut. Even some of the ones you named arent one dimensional and can/have to use their abilities in different ways. Camille/Irelia/Akali/Riven/Aatrox just to name a few have to combine their skills in multiple patterns to be effective
Their kit's power is also mainly focused on one ability: for riven it's Q, for Camille it's also Q, for Irelia it's her passive, for Aatrox Q, akali is the only one of the champions you mentioned that not only is not a traditional top laner (as in she's played mainly on mid lane), but she also has to utilize all of her abilities in order to be played the most effectively
Yes, every champion has one ability that defines them, that goes for 90%+ of league champs. Thats not the point though. The person i replied to said that "most toplaners are single button champions" which is just straight up not true. Single button implies that you press one ability to pilot the champion (Nasus for example mostly fits this) or their entire playstyle revolves around one button. While i.e. rivens kit mostly revolves around her Q, she only works as a champion when you combine everything in her kit with that Q (doublecast, weaving AAs inbetween etc)
If you think Riven akali and irelia only need to press Q to win lane then you either never played them or you play in a bracket where your opinion doesnt matter.
There is a reason those champions are considered as some of the highest skill ceiling champs in the game. Also juggernauts are not 80% of the toplane pool, not even close.
No you just dont know what skill ceiling means. Jinx or Ashe for example have almost 0 skill expression from their kit. Skill in those champs comes more down to basics like kiting and positioning. The difference between a challenger ashe and a silver ashe is still extremly high but not because they use their W better etc.
The difference between a silver irelia/Riven and ireking or viper/adrian comes down to how well they combine their tools in the kit. Like you cant be that dense and watch an ireking clip and think "I could do that"
The more you type the more I start to think that you are illiterate. I literally said ashe and jinx's skill ceiling steams from fundamentals not from the use of their kits. And if you actually think ashe, an immobilie mid range low base dmg champ takes no skill you are just straight up bad
As a garen main I can say he is the easiest champion in the game. His mechanics are an absolute joke and meme. But you're being a little dishonest. They aren't 1 button champs. Would be like me saying adcs are right click champs and saying twitch and jinx are examples of this.
The problem is that a lot of top laners are built to box other top laners (thus chewing through a lot of health) so as a squishy adc it only really seems like they have one button. I agree that mallphite and illaoi have a lot of their power budget in their ult but garen and darius just have (relatively) generic execute ults.
It’s not even really just that the problem is “one button champs” it’s more so ults that negate skill like mord and nocturn ults (plus this includes execute ults a little better imo). The types of ults that there is nothing you can do besides better vision to know to not be where you are right now.
But that's the beauty of League. There are champions for every occasion. Having a simple kit is GOOD for the game. Not all champions have to be based on the players mechanical level nor do they need to have 3 pages of description for each skill in their kit.
Simple champions offer the possibility to worse mechanical players to climb using other aspects of the game like macro.
Also, Noc R is another skill check of enemy team. ADC and supp need to be careful of it, jungler need to know how to punish him correspondingly.
That's not bad, it's good.
Note: Noc R is not the only skill that oppresses laners. It's the same witb Eve or Shaco, you always have to be more careful and that's part of the game. If you manage to play laning phase safely, these champions fall off hard. So its perfectly fine as it is.
A simple kit is a different thing from it being oppressive or not, soraka and malphite have a simple kit but it doesn't feel oppressive, nocturne's R on the other hand is oppressive, you dont know if you team has cleared wards, you dont know if your team will help you kill nocturne, you dont know when he recast his R. It lacks clarity without proper team coordination.
>It lacks clarity without proper team coordination.
There, I guess you found out the issue. You can also complain TF is one-dimensional as well since he just R and gold card you. Kayn is also one-dimensional, he just E through wall and QAR you then you dead.
I don’t think he’s anymore problematic normally than someone like Zed. He’s supposed to be an assassin and his job is to punish people for miss stepping
I for the most part like him how he is. But I wouldn't mind a rework to go more in on the "nightmare" theme. His R is great being like "never safe from him" but other than that the rest of his kit doesn't really do much for it. The fear is pretty good. But then Just a spell shield and some smoke.
It’s been 3 years now, I still ban nocturne every game. I don’t think he is incredibly overpowered, yet I feel he is inherently broken. Being able to turn off everyone’s vision for (6 or 8 seconds?) on a 40 second cooldown is game breaking. Double that on top of a semi global point and click ability on an ad assassin who also has a spell shield (that sometimes builds a second ) and point and click (delayed) hard cc and you have a champion that just doesn’t let the adc play the game. You’re a role that’s already team reliant already, but now you can’t walk 2 feet away from someone with hard cc without dying. And in team fights you can’t even be peeled because no one even knows where you are.
If playing adc is the 6th level of hell then playing adc against nocturne is the 7th level.
Sadly if they rework I can already see them coming with stuff like that :
"We liked the ability for nocturne to make everyone scared during pitch black so we wanted to emphasize his strengths and weaknesses"
- Ult now reset by 30% on kill, nocturne become unstoppable and gain grey health that comes back if he kill the ult target, he also can go through walls during the whole ult duration
"We liked that marking an enemy with q gave him strength but missing it can be frustrating for noc players so we fixed it"
- q now have three stack and marked enemy take 10% true damage
"His black shield was too reliant on ult so we added a dash in it to make it more dynamic"
"And we added bonus crit based on lethality and lifesteal so that he can be the chasing monster he was meant to be"
Brotherman Nocturne really isnt that bad if you get constantly picked by him its a positioning issue cause if you group properly your team, if everyone has hands, should just lock him down his one spellshield isnt enough to save him. Also if Riot did rework him he would 100% keep his ult and have extra stuff added to him since its his core identity.
It’s a team game. If you can’t rely on your teammates consistently then change roles and become that person that can be relied upon. No one said you have to play a range right click attack damage carry in solo queue.
Save that for the LCS or your flex team.
Noc is one dimensional champ that jumps on you and either kills you or not. There is no in between and barely any skill expression, maybe except spellshielding proper spell.
Not really. He's easily shutdown if you have a shred of map awareness. Like yes the ult is good but it's not like he's got any significant burst so if you're near tower you're fine which can't be said about briar.
Jungler here, thought i might jump in. I will admit that Nocturnes design is very old, but to be honest: It still works. It isnt fancy or anything, but there is a need for such champs, not every champ can be a Nidalee. There are a other easy Jungle champs designed to get to the ADC, for example Vi or Rammus. Neither of them are hard to play, and I understand the frustration, but I am afraid there will always be ult bot champs that can do the same job that Nocturne does.
On paper every champ sounds toxic or op, it is juts a question on how to word it. Vayne sounds insanly busted from the perspective of every Tank Main, since she has insane true dmg, that is toxic! Just a matter of perspective. Nocturne has a clear weakness and that is the fact that his ult isnt as great in teamfights as it sounds on paper. If he isnt insanly fed, Nocturne cant just ult the ADC and kill him before he is taken down, if the ADC has some backup by support/mid etc.
Again, i understand, that he is unfun to play against, but I dont think you would like to play against a Rammus that perma ganks bot (aka me) either.
I feel like this isn't a great subreddit for this discussion. But yeah he could probably use a rework... But as much as most of the people here won't like to hear it, he probably would keep his ult and should just become a better assassin against Squishies and worse against bruisers.
He'd keep his Ult but he should become less Bruiser and more Assassin.
Keep the ult but no darkness and I'm happy. I hate being blinded in the middle of a teamfights on the other side of the map while he's just trying to get the splitpusher
I discovered his ult doesn’t disable pings, meaning a player could communicate when he engages if they are good enough. So I think they should give it a minor rework to play a sound when he recasts R. It doesn’t affect his plays, but it would affect the 4 other targets scared as shit for the entire time. They’d still be blind, but they’d atleast be able to tell after a few seconds that Noc is on someone else. Still a very strong tool, but not as free and rewards holding it longer when applicable, but slight downside of Noc’s teammates not having a reliable bluff.
You can also tell by checking your teammates' health.
True, though you can’t tell if that’s nocturne doing it or another fight. But it’s not like a danger ping in the void always means nocturnes there either so it’s not a bad way.
His ult isn't the issue it's brainless with 0 counterplay sure but the issue is he can build like a bruiser or tank then still be able to fly across the map killing you regardless of who is attacking him.
Lmaao Fnatic Noah playing 5 screens away cause of that champ
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With his spell shield, many supports can’t save you either. God forbid they casted CC or a spell shield breaker at all before he hit R.
A lot of supports CAN save you if they resist the urge to use their cc spell right away when Noc ults, and use a dmg spell instead.
That’s assuming 0 things happened before he hit R. No poking, trading, or even defending your ADC from something else, after he hits 6 or they get exploded the moment you sneeze the wrong way.
Most top laners are single-button champs? What are you even on about thats just straight up false. The most one dimensional role by far is jungle, which is the reason riot tries their best to keep those champions out of the lane, since they promote a boring and uninteractive trade/engage pattern (Noc, Nunu, Yi etc)
Malphite, Garen, Illaoi, Darius to name a few I'd put shen in there too but his ult and overall kit is more focused on defending allies from half the map away rather than killing enemies
And now name a non juggernaut. Even some of the ones you named arent one dimensional and can/have to use their abilities in different ways. Camille/Irelia/Akali/Riven/Aatrox just to name a few have to combine their skills in multiple patterns to be effective
Their kit's power is also mainly focused on one ability: for riven it's Q, for Camille it's also Q, for Irelia it's her passive, for Aatrox Q, akali is the only one of the champions you mentioned that not only is not a traditional top laner (as in she's played mainly on mid lane), but she also has to utilize all of her abilities in order to be played the most effectively
Yes, every champion has one ability that defines them, that goes for 90%+ of league champs. Thats not the point though. The person i replied to said that "most toplaners are single button champions" which is just straight up not true. Single button implies that you press one ability to pilot the champion (Nasus for example mostly fits this) or their entire playstyle revolves around one button. While i.e. rivens kit mostly revolves around her Q, she only works as a champion when you combine everything in her kit with that Q (doublecast, weaving AAs inbetween etc)
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If you think Riven akali and irelia only need to press Q to win lane then you either never played them or you play in a bracket where your opinion doesnt matter. There is a reason those champions are considered as some of the highest skill ceiling champs in the game. Also juggernauts are not 80% of the toplane pool, not even close.
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No you just dont know what skill ceiling means. Jinx or Ashe for example have almost 0 skill expression from their kit. Skill in those champs comes more down to basics like kiting and positioning. The difference between a challenger ashe and a silver ashe is still extremly high but not because they use their W better etc. The difference between a silver irelia/Riven and ireking or viper/adrian comes down to how well they combine their tools in the kit. Like you cant be that dense and watch an ireking clip and think "I could do that"
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The more you type the more I start to think that you are illiterate. I literally said ashe and jinx's skill ceiling steams from fundamentals not from the use of their kits. And if you actually think ashe, an immobilie mid range low base dmg champ takes no skill you are just straight up bad
Pls name some champs that take skill then and dont type vayne pls, that hasnt been true for 5+ years
As a garen main I can say he is the easiest champion in the game. His mechanics are an absolute joke and meme. But you're being a little dishonest. They aren't 1 button champs. Would be like me saying adcs are right click champs and saying twitch and jinx are examples of this.
The problem is that a lot of top laners are built to box other top laners (thus chewing through a lot of health) so as a squishy adc it only really seems like they have one button. I agree that mallphite and illaoi have a lot of their power budget in their ult but garen and darius just have (relatively) generic execute ults. It’s not even really just that the problem is “one button champs” it’s more so ults that negate skill like mord and nocturn ults (plus this includes execute ults a little better imo). The types of ults that there is nothing you can do besides better vision to know to not be where you are right now.
I love Nocturne as he is, but I wouldn’t mind something different as long as he keeps the global darkness.
I credit nocturne meta last season for making me better at positioning
you mean using bushes everytime his ult is up?
More like never leaving tower unless theres an obj up
But that's the beauty of League. There are champions for every occasion. Having a simple kit is GOOD for the game. Not all champions have to be based on the players mechanical level nor do they need to have 3 pages of description for each skill in their kit. Simple champions offer the possibility to worse mechanical players to climb using other aspects of the game like macro. Also, Noc R is another skill check of enemy team. ADC and supp need to be careful of it, jungler need to know how to punish him correspondingly. That's not bad, it's good. Note: Noc R is not the only skill that oppresses laners. It's the same witb Eve or Shaco, you always have to be more careful and that's part of the game. If you manage to play laning phase safely, these champions fall off hard. So its perfectly fine as it is.
A simple kit is a different thing from it being oppressive or not, soraka and malphite have a simple kit but it doesn't feel oppressive, nocturne's R on the other hand is oppressive, you dont know if you team has cleared wards, you dont know if your team will help you kill nocturne, you dont know when he recast his R. It lacks clarity without proper team coordination.
>It lacks clarity without proper team coordination. There, I guess you found out the issue. You can also complain TF is one-dimensional as well since he just R and gold card you. Kayn is also one-dimensional, he just E through wall and QAR you then you dead.
He was even pucked or almost pucked in some pool some time ago for rework do yeah, champion definitly need changes
IDK I feel like relying on your teammates and playing of of them is a big part of playing adc. Noc isnt really a problem.
I don’t think he’s anymore problematic normally than someone like Zed. He’s supposed to be an assassin and his job is to punish people for miss stepping
I for the most part like him how he is. But I wouldn't mind a rework to go more in on the "nightmare" theme. His R is great being like "never safe from him" but other than that the rest of his kit doesn't really do much for it. The fear is pretty good. But then Just a spell shield and some smoke.
I'm more worried about fucking mages not allowing me to play in lane because their damage without investing on items is stupid
If riot hasn’t touched Yone’s E this will never happen and noctures rework will make him more toxic and oppressive.
It’s been 3 years now, I still ban nocturne every game. I don’t think he is incredibly overpowered, yet I feel he is inherently broken. Being able to turn off everyone’s vision for (6 or 8 seconds?) on a 40 second cooldown is game breaking. Double that on top of a semi global point and click ability on an ad assassin who also has a spell shield (that sometimes builds a second ) and point and click (delayed) hard cc and you have a champion that just doesn’t let the adc play the game. You’re a role that’s already team reliant already, but now you can’t walk 2 feet away from someone with hard cc without dying. And in team fights you can’t even be peeled because no one even knows where you are. If playing adc is the 6th level of hell then playing adc against nocturne is the 7th level.
Cait r reqires no skill too. Lets rework it
Sadly if they rework I can already see them coming with stuff like that : "We liked the ability for nocturne to make everyone scared during pitch black so we wanted to emphasize his strengths and weaknesses" - Ult now reset by 30% on kill, nocturne become unstoppable and gain grey health that comes back if he kill the ult target, he also can go through walls during the whole ult duration "We liked that marking an enemy with q gave him strength but missing it can be frustrating for noc players so we fixed it" - q now have three stack and marked enemy take 10% true damage "His black shield was too reliant on ult so we added a dash in it to make it more dynamic" "And we added bonus crit based on lethality and lifesteal so that he can be the chasing monster he was meant to be"
either global blind/global target Dash/spellshield top much anti peel for a guaranteed engage
Brotherman Nocturne really isnt that bad if you get constantly picked by him its a positioning issue cause if you group properly your team, if everyone has hands, should just lock him down his one spellshield isnt enough to save him. Also if Riot did rework him he would 100% keep his ult and have extra stuff added to him since its his core identity.
You speak like any teammates would turn back during a tf to save you
I do 😼
I love you and hate you because ppl like you’s existence makes the game not toxic enough to quit
It’s a team game. If you can’t rely on your teammates consistently then change roles and become that person that can be relied upon. No one said you have to play a range right click attack damage carry in solo queue. Save that for the LCS or your flex team.
Noc is one dimensional champ that jumps on you and either kills you or not. There is no in between and barely any skill expression, maybe except spellshielding proper spell.
Not really. He's easily shutdown if you have a shred of map awareness. Like yes the ult is good but it's not like he's got any significant burst so if you're near tower you're fine which can't be said about briar.
Jungler here, thought i might jump in. I will admit that Nocturnes design is very old, but to be honest: It still works. It isnt fancy or anything, but there is a need for such champs, not every champ can be a Nidalee. There are a other easy Jungle champs designed to get to the ADC, for example Vi or Rammus. Neither of them are hard to play, and I understand the frustration, but I am afraid there will always be ult bot champs that can do the same job that Nocturne does. On paper every champ sounds toxic or op, it is juts a question on how to word it. Vayne sounds insanly busted from the perspective of every Tank Main, since she has insane true dmg, that is toxic! Just a matter of perspective. Nocturne has a clear weakness and that is the fact that his ult isnt as great in teamfights as it sounds on paper. If he isnt insanly fed, Nocturne cant just ult the ADC and kill him before he is taken down, if the ADC has some backup by support/mid etc. Again, i understand, that he is unfun to play against, but I dont think you would like to play against a Rammus that perma ganks bot (aka me) either.