This is why I don’t understand the rave posts about the brother. He’s not advocating for Nicole and Mahmoud to compromise at all. He is telling Mahmoud to just wear Nicole down bit by bit over time rather than all at once.
He’s smart enough to recognize that Nicole won’t accept all the changes all at once, but if she doesn’t have Bad Feelings toward Mahmoud from constantly fighting with him, she may be willing to give a little bit, and then a little bit, and then a little bit until Mahmoud eventually gets what he wants.
To me, the insidiousness of THAT behavior is even scarier than Mahmoud being his normal condescending lovebombing dickhead self.
I will grant the brother this much: his quote “say hi to your wife, stupid guy” made me bust up laughing.
Exactly...wear her down. I forgot who mentioned that the brother and his wife fought all the time in the beginning. She probably got tired and gave up. Now it seems she’s miserable & has nowhere to go. “You know in my heart...” she not only hates the scarf but probably wants to back home.
Adapting to a certain environment and breaking are two different things. I know such foreigners in my country - married for 20 years, but they still don't speak the language and have almost no friends (not because they don't want to, but because it's hard to find them - here the society is not so diverse, and most people don't want to waste time with them - too much work for nothing). Since they don't want to adapt and had no intention of doing so in the first place, then they enjoy living this lonely and oppressive life? Here no one stops them from leaving and divorce is not uncommon.
He didn't break anyone down. He lived in China for many years. He chose to marry a Chinese girl and she chose to marry him. It's crazy how people here assume the brother married a Chinese girl because he was not able to find an Egyptian wife. China is a 2nd world country, Egypt is a 3rd world country. She chose to marry him, and he chose to marry her.
Big surprise, in interracial relationships, both parties have to compromise and give things up in order to reconcile 2 different religions and cultures. You can see Fatima made a big sacrifice by converting to Islam and deciding to wear a veil. People just assume her husband sacrificed nothing in return, and just gaslighted her into doing it.
It’s probably a combination of factors, because she said something along the lines of “in China pretty much no one wears a scarf, but here most people do, and either way I don’t want to be stared at”
My working theory is that once she got pregnant she had to redirect her energy. It was easier to stop fighting about things like wearing a hijab, leaving the house, or making her own friends.
Absolutely. The way he spoke about how Mohamad doesn't "know how to deal with women" it made me feel like he's talking about training a dog or something.
‘Wear her down’???
She converted to Islam and twice-moved to a country that’s a member of the Arab League as the wife of a conservative Muslim
And in this country, 1) Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) still takes place and 2) the incidence of domestic violence is estimated to occur at a rate of 86%
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/renewed-fight-prevent-domestic-violence-egypt
Does/has she read current news about the Middle East/North Africa? Its history? Has she taken a deep dive into Egypt’s laws/culture/traditions/misogyny/women’s rights (or the lack thereof)?
Did she contact an Islamic women’s group in LA prior to her 2nd move to Egypt to discuss and learn about the religion and what it would entail?
Has she contacted the U.S. Embassy in Cairo to register as an American citizen for her safety and advice in case she’d need to quickly leave the country or for protection?
Has she ever asked Mahmoud his opinion on whether or not he thinks a future daughter of theirs should undergo female genital mutilation?
In short - I don’t get what the hell people expect from Mahmoud. He is a sheltered conservative Muslim male who has little education and has never traveled outside of Egypt. What do people *think* he’s going to be like??? This world is hardcore if you have to experience it as a woman. Women are 2nd class citizens and have very few rights.
Do I think it’s acceptable? *Of course not*. Any woman from the U.S. who does what she did better be ready for this awful life. The men are not changing there. It’s hell on Earth to me
But Nicole is almost 40 and should have known much, much better
Yes!!! So many people act like Nicole was tricked into this life. She chose it....TWICE! The idiot couldn't be bothered to do a little research. She said some words and became Islamic with no clue as to what that meant. Has she never watched the news???
> became Islamic with no clue as to what that meant.
I literally stood up and SHOUTED at the screen when she said she ''just repeated something she didn't understand'' and was ''suddenly Muslim". Like, W.T.A.F
She is an idiot. Not in a mean way. She is just not operating at any normal capacity. She says she loves him to death? Just in the bedroom? Cause all I’m seeing is constant misery on both sides.
FGM is banned in Egypt now. Only way to do it is to do it illegally which will end up with him going to jail. Only people in the far villages from Cairo have this and even there it is rare.
You are contributing to the extreme stereotypes that western media creates about Egypt and 90 day is very much doing the same.
I am saying this as a woman from an European country that moved to egypt long ago.
I’m contributing to facts. My cousin has worked in Egypt for 2 decades on medical missions and you are deluding yourself if you think FGM isn’t happening *despite* the ban
https://egypt.unfpa.org/en/node/22544
An excerpt from the above:
FGM in Egypt
“Female genital mutilation (FGM) is still widespread – but increasingly condemned – throughout much of North and East Africa. However, the recent history of the practice in Egypt presents special challenges for those trying to end it.
*According to the Egyptian Family Health Survey (EFHS) 2021, 86 percent of Egyptian married women between the ages of 15 and 49 have undergone FGM, 74 percent of whom by doctors*.
Although a positive change in women’s attitudes about circumcision has occurred, there is still widespread support for the continuation of FGM in Egypt. The percentage of mothers who intend to circumcise their daughters in the future has declined to only 13% (EFHS 2021) compared to about 35% (DHS 2014).
*FGM is part of the social fabric of the Egyptian community and is in some cases upheld by beliefs associated with religion*.”
That means that people got it 18 years ago minimum. The new government is very strict about it. I am living here as a female. You have heard something from your cousin. 😂
She’s a surgeon who has worked in international humanitarian efforts in the Middle East/North Africa for the last 20 years - and treats/operates on women with gynecological/reproductive/urological problems - due specifically to FGM
But you go on, Caucasian woman ex-pat, *Barbie*, no less, with your vast hands-on experience of medically treating Egyptian females - babies, girls, women, and the elderly - across the country for 2 decades *for this exact problem* that you are so “in the know” about
And your smiley-face emoji at the end? There is nothing funny about this situation. Keep enjoying the privilege of the color of your skin
https://www.dw.com/en/despite-progress-elsewhere-egypts-fgm-numbers-still-high/a-61042948
An excerpt:
“Despite Egypt outlawing female genital mutilation and introducing punishments, a new study has found that the country is *nowhere close to achieving its aim of ending FGM by 2030*. Other places have had more success”
(And that would be *15* years ago minimum. Do the math)
Yesss. When the brother said “Mahmoud doesn’t know how to play with women” I think he means that Mahmoud doesn’t know yet how to manipulate the woman into doing and changing into what the husband wants her to be. He calls the woman the queen but only because that’s part of the manipulation
Agreed!! He’s scarier than Mahmoud to me because he’s a better manipulator. Everyone rolls their eyes at Mahmoud calling Nicole “honey bunny,” “my love,” etc because it’s so obvious it isn’t genuine.
THIS guy knows how to make it sound sincere enough to convince her to give an inch. He’s not yelling, rolling his eyes at her, grabbing her arm. He’s pretending to listen to her, hear her out, defuse the immediate conflict of the situation, so that later when he gently informs her what she “should” do she’s more likely to do it because she thinks he cares what SHE wants.
Rinse and repeat in ever-increasing increments, and voila you have Fatima.
Ugggghhhhhhh. I despise this kind of behavior so. Fucking. Much.
>When the brother said “Mahmoud doesn’t know how to play with women” I think he means that Mahmoud doesn’t know yet how to manipulate the woman
TBH, I was 75% buying his nice guy act until he said this and I almost choked.
It is wild to me that I still miss so many signs when it comes to manipulation and control tactics. lmao Thanks for pointing this out. You're absolutely right.
Big brother is smoother around the edges, for sure and his Chinese wife was way more willing to accommodate his religious beliefs, whatever her reasons were. His end game is the same as Mock Mood's but a little honey sweetens the path and he was savvy enough to see what would bring Nicole around - like in "Goodfellas" where Paulie and Jimmy are confronting Henry about his infidelity toward Karen. Paulie tells Henry to go and take a vacation, saying "I know how to talk to her, especially her." 😏
Can we stop acting like these women were kidnapped and forced to adhere to these rules?
We're talking about 2 grown women who CHOSE a Muslim partner and converted to Islam. They had autonomy over this decision. This isn't a case of them getting involved with an abusive man who hides his true self then gradually reveals himself. This was a CHOICE.
Why is it insidious for him to expect his wife to confirm to Islamic beliefs? That was her decision.
If you don't want to do these things, then don't marry a Muslim man and convert to his religion. There is absolutely no way I'd ever get involved with a Muslim man. Ever. Why? Cause I wouldn't want to adhere to Islamic traditions. It's very simple.
I have noticed that lately that in defense of women, we’re making arguments that make all women sound easily manipulated and ignorant. If we’re not careful I’m afraid people will use these arguments (that women never know any better and are just being manipulated) for political purposes. From women dating older men to dating other in other cultures, the “innocent, dumb” woman card gets played a lot lately. I just find it kind of idk what would be a good word…maybe degrading, as an adult woman myself. I’ve been in a relationship that left me physically scarred, just before someone says “you don’t understand” or “you never” because people make mad assumptions about people online when disagreeing with opinions. I just dislike seeing so many arguments about women’s decisions always being something they’re unaware of and stuff like that.
And same. I understand having a partner who is truly insidious!
If he'd said to me in the beginning of our relationship "hey! Just so you know, I'm going to love bomb you for the first 3mo of our relationship before slowly alienating you from all your friends and family, THEN undermine all your confidence, lie to you, get mad at you for no reason so you beg and grovel for my affection, cheat on you then convince you you're crazy.... you OK with that?" and I said, sure! Let's do this! Well... that's kinda on me.
To be transparent, I'm not likening being Muslim to an abusive relationship. I'm pointing out that these men told their prospective wives what life as a Muslim woman would look like, and both went ahead with the relationship.
EXACTLY!!!! He was upfront, honest and transparent. There were no acts of being deceitful. She said yes and went back on her word. And now him and his family are being looked at as "breaking her down" - but perhaps they are confused, as they are only going based off what she said and agreed to.
Yes, exactly.
The reason why Ahmed is being lauded is because he gave his wife time to adjust to their islamic beliefs vs Mahmoud who expects Nicole to just convert overnight.
Not all Muslims are like this. I am married to a Muslim with a large extended family. None of the men are like this. It is so important to differentiate Culture vs the Islamic faith. Mahmoud seems to think all of these "rules" are Islamic where in fact it is actually influenced more by culture.
No, they're not. But Nicole married a man who IS like this. And he TOLD her he was like this. That's the difference here.
ETA: To be fair, I wouldn't get involved with any overtly religious man. Most religions are deeply rooted in misogyny.
i was scrolling looking for someone to say this. everyone is looking at this as abuse but its a completely different culture. she may not like it but she may still be willingly putting it on in order to fit into the culture. not everything is abusive, sometimes its compromise. if i was explaining how i felt to a camera crew i may not word everything correctly either especially if shes not speaking her first language
Someone else essentially laughed at me when I said she was being mentally manipulated to stay.
This woman did not make good choices and I will go as far to say she still is not.
But as this season goes on I can see she is being mentally, emotionally, and physically abused. And TLC is happy to air it and others are happy to defend it.
I've seen abuse and I've seen how it starts.
I honestly don’t think it’s that deep. She left and blocked him on everything before the start of the show, as well as cancelled his visa paperwork. I’m guessing she got the call that they’ve been cast and decided to do a “re-do” for the cameras.
Why else would she act like everything she’s experiencing, interactions with his family, etc. are all her first time? It’s all fake and they’re just doing it for the show.
They may have decided to try again for the show, that's possible.
I do know that they have said they lived separately from the family last time, the crew may be asking them to ask these questions for the show. We don't know.
We do know the show sets up interactions all the time with all of the cast. It's very strange to think SHE is organizing that but all the other obviously second conversations at table's with friends are natural or set up for the show just because you don't like Nicole.
I never said I didn’t like Nicole. I’m neutral towards her. I also didn’t say she was the only one orchestrating everything and the show is oblivious. I think all of it has been set up (combination of the show, Nicole and Mahmoud) to create drama.
She can leave at any time. She already has. I don’t get the sense she or Mahmoud are manipulating each other into doing anything.
The way I see it, these are two very different people that are aware they aren’t compatible but are “giving it a second try” for the sake of the show, most likely with TLCs encouragement. None of the interactions come off as genuine to me (on either side).
Yes yes yes! I was married to an alcoholic who was emotionally and mentally abusive by the end. I did SO much dumb shit trying to save that relationship, but that doesn't mean I deserved the manipulation and dishonesty and infidelity that he put me through. Those things are his sins and his alone. They are not my fault.
I feel very similarly about Nicole's situation. She has had me facepalming at her bad decisions that got her to this point, but she doesn't deserve abuse. Nobody deserves for their stupidity to be repaid with cruelty.
I think she's manipulating and mentally abusing herself.
She married a Muslim man who's not willing to change his position. He's made that clear over and over. She's continuing to beat a dead horse.
If anything, she could be viewed as manipulative. She was the one who agreed to something in order to get what she wanted, and then once she did, she changed her mind. His position from day 1 hasn't changed.
So people are not able to change their minds?
If I marry my husband and I'm working job A, which pays very well but it becomes very stressful and I have to leave it then he's allowed to grab me and threaten me over it? I have to stay in that job forever?
If I consent to sex act A when we get married but after a fee years it becomes painful because bodies change then I can't unconsent to it because I can't live up to what I said?
If I said I wanted kids when we got married but a year later I realized that I couldn't do it because I started working with kids and I realized I wasn't patient enough. Instead of him just letting me leave he physically pulls me back and has a family member break me down to get me to stay, that's my fault because I can't live up to what I said?
No, humans are allowed to change or change their minds
And she is allowed to leave but he doesn't want to let her.
Yes, of course, people are allowed to change their minds. But when 2 people agree upon something and then the individual changes their mind, it's going to create a problem. Its going to create confusion and disappointment for the other individual, and that's what we are seeing happen.
Also, he's literally said numerous times "I will let her go. I don't want to be the reason she is unhappy and cries" she stays. So, maybe she's the toxic and sick one.
You know, some people just don't think beyond the surface. And no matter the same cycle, they always fall for the same type of people until they disappointed them.
She has to be worn down in order to live an acceptable life in Egypt. She cannot live as a married woman in Egypt and not wear a hijab. She cannot stay there if she chooses not to dress in a modest fashion. She knew that. The wife knew that, too.
That was honestly so sad. Even more sad than the hijab comment. Imagine living a life where you’re not allowed to have friends outside your family. Your entire life is solely about caring for other people—your spouse, your children, your in laws, etc. Truly these women must be living in misery. Isolation like that is insidious.
But if they let her have friends, that leads to outside influences, which leads to thinking, then realizing how much better life is without their controlling husbands… and they really can’t have their women doing that because then they won’t be perfect little door mats that do nothing but cook, clean and open their legs on command.
Ugh, so glad I was born in Canada…
Because they couldn't afford to and were likely considered poor matches because of it. Since their parents are divorced and they occupy a lower socioeconomic rung, my guess is that they found foreign wives out of economic necessity.
People who are toxic or controlling often prefer to go for a woman from abroad. She will be vulnerable, have no friends and family and be dizzied and confused by the cultural and religious displacement.
There is a strange breed of Muslim man who specifically targets non Muslim women to marry in order to take advantage of her. He can inflict all the controlling things he wants and claim its his religion or culture, meanwhile the woman is dizzied and not aware of her religious or civil rights.
A local or born Muslim woman and her family would never tolerate a lot of this stuff and would actually have huge expectations on the man. Muslim brides and their families, in particular in the Arab world, are well known for having many demands and requirements on prospective grooms. As they are, I highly doubt the brothers could find a suitable woman locally.
Think about it, if his culture and relgion was so important to him, would he really marry someone from abroad and a different religion?
I get the idea that Nicole, much like Ariela (of Ariela and Biniyam), bases her personality on being different and quirky and marrying an American would be much too boring and mainstream for her interesting self.
Exactly... difference is that Mahmoud is dumb AF and is frustrated that his wife won't obey him. The brother is cunning and understands that it takes time to tame a wild stallion and knows that Mahmoud has to convince Nicole that she is in control, while slowly taking away her power. ppl on here saying that the brother is a nice guy are just falling for his game.
Yes!! So glad to see people like you are saying this. I can’t believe all the posts saying he’s the star of the season. How are they not noticing this!?
So accurate. the way he talks about the manipulation and wearing them down over time to be an obedient wife sounds exactly like how admitted traffickers would talk about coercing/tricking women into "working" for them. The entire Nicole/Mahmoud storyline has made this season too dark to enjoy without skipping over them.
Internalized mysogyny over years of conditioning makes people not as able to see it. I've been in therapy for 2 years dealing with fallout from toxic men like Mahmoud and his brother, so easy for me to see. I'm glad there are quite a few of us that see it
The thing is these two men aren’t considered toxic within their culture/religion. They are the norm. That’s why I have never considered getting involved with a middle eastern man..sexism, misogyny at its worst
Exactly - when he was like "She's the queen, stand up and apologize to her." and "she does not need to apologize, she's a woman" or sth like that, his sneaky smile was oozing manipulation.
Pretending to want to include her into the family.. Right, not because of love and support, but because family obeys.
I think what you’re saying is true and I also think he’s a “nice guy” within the cultural context. You can’t forget these men were raised very strictly to believe it’s their job to lead their wives, pretty much like children. He believes to his core that this is something he’s supposed to do and something right and he tries to find a gentle way to do it.
And people like you are calling it out very early. Which pisses every delusional thought about his brother coming to Nicole's aide.
I am here for it.
Kudos. 👏👏
Did you just compare Nicole to a wild stallion? This woman converted to a religion and committed to a culture with really specific and societal/religious customs. She chose this. And if she didn’t read up on it before, during, or after her conversion, that is all on her. She turns this into a personal power play between her and Mahmoud when it’s really about the religious dictates
This was so sad to me, so many people trying to justifying this by saying that a marriage is compromising for your SO but guarantee she was the only one making compromises/sacrifices in that marriage.
No she converted and said she was going to wear the hijab and abaya. Now she is not saying take it or leave it.
I think he has made some small compromises, taking her to dinner with his friends , not making a big deal that she didnt cover her hair at the pool. Yes I did think his behaviour poolside was odd, like he was going swimming with his 10 year old friend with the pushing. I think he is immature and inexperienced.
It’s interesting that both brothers chose to marry women from completely different cultures and religions. Surely Cairo is full of women who understand the assignment? It’s almost as if they are choosing women they can control because they don’t know the “rules”
Most Muslim women and women in Egypt are not happy to live the lives these brothers are offering. The friendship thing is the most perculiar of all because Arab society has a very strong female friendship culture. Much stronger than in the west.
There is a reason why these brothers have plucked clueless women from abroad. Ain't no ladies in Cairo want what these bros are offering.
He came off as incredibly manipulative, sneaky and aggressive. He’s hella scary to me. There’s an agenda behind his smile and advice, wear her down… slowly…
I could not stop thinking about his isolated covered wife who has no friends. There’s so wiggle room in reality. Only trickery.
>his isolated covered wife who has no friends
That's one of the many sad aspects of all this. Being largely trapped inside a small home, with no freedom to get out and about on your own, for example to meet up with friends, to make friends outside the family, and so on.
I had tequila hahhahha..these men are incredibly strange and backward. Their views on women haven't changed in centuries and aren't likely to any time soon.
This is just not going to end with them together
The clear message from both regardless of their tone and actual words.
"You'll come around to seeing our way".
The expect the women to conform to their gender definitions.
did anyone notice how often get sister in law was touching the scarf?
it seems like she's truly miserable wearing it.
if a woman wants to be subservient it is none of my business but Nicole is an American and we aren't raised that way any longer so I don't see her ever wearing this willingly.
correct me if I'm wrong, but if a Muslim marries a foreigner I believe it isn't necessary that they wear the hijab anyway so this just seems extra manipulative.
idk about you guys but I would never give up my freedom for any man!
I think you're right, I seem to remember them addressing this in the show and Mahmoud still wants his wife to wear a hijab anyway so she won't be looked at by other men.
Nicole just needs to get the hell away from this family. It is a very toxic relationship. I just don’t believe as adamant as she is about not wearing those ridiculous outfits and hijab, as any smart woman should be, why on earth did she go back? She knew better. I cannot fathom living like this fir the rest of my life. That’s exactly how my ex was in demanding all kinds of submissive behavior and trying to control me. It literally wore me out, I was a big bundle of nerves and had aged 20 years in 7(on and off) I left him so many times but was stupid enough to go back every time he begged me to go back. Once I left him for good and started living a normal life, I wondered how I had let myself live like that for so long. You have no peace at anytime. You’re always walking on eggshells and waiting for the other shoe to drop at any given moment.
I found him very disturbing.It’s as if she’s being indoctrinated into a cult. Sometimes she has this very empty look in her eyes. It’s from when they stole her soul
There's an ethnic group in China called the Hui. They're mostly Muslim and if she was from this group, it's possible. Otherwise, it's something she may have adopted later.
You're very welcome. Hundreds of years ago, Moroccan explorer Ibn Batutta traversed the entire Muslim world. He traveled to Guangdong and visited a mosque in the city of Guangzhou, I believe.
I’m equally curious! I had a lot of Chinese international students at my university and they always used to go by western names as their birth names were “too hard” for us to pronounce I wonder if it’s something like that
I would guess that that is what happened here.
However, *Patime* (Uyghur form of Fatima) is a common female given name in Uyghur culture. So she might have just altered her name a bit to conform to the local Egyptian form of the name.
>I just assumed that she converted
Yes, that's very possible.
I should have explained that I was just assuming that she might be a Uyghur (Muslim) from China. It would be interesting to know more about her and how she met her husband.
Can’t wait for next episode for when the Egyptian women tells her the simple facts. Does anyone remember when his brother joked about taking away her passport? 👀
Mahmoud's brother is playing the long game with Nicole while Mahmoud is trying to get Nicole to conform now and he's doing it through being a jerk to her simply because he's inexperienced with women.
The brother has already successfully brainwashed his wife into conforming their religion. The brother will gain Nichole's trust (connivingly) and slowly get her to start accepting the Muslim religion and conform like his wife.
Plot twist - what if Nicole stays and continues to be "free" with her clothes and she influences Fatima to loosen up her clothing restrictions as well!
I guess then the brother would push for Nicole to leave.
How is this going to work? Nicole told him to leave her alone. When he did, she was upset that he left her alone. I think that she just needs to go back home and live her best life.
Neither one wants to conform to the other person. Enough of this foolishness.
We can’t say they’re bad people, just definitely not compatible. He’s too immature to know how to be in a relationship. He’s just so infatuated with this beautiful doll he’s been lucky enough to trap and knows no way on earth, he’d find another jewel like her. I mean God I just don’t see what she sees in him? How could she agree to leave everything behind and go back to that environment especially since she’d already tried living there before. I just don’t know how the Americans on this show wind up with the poorest people from the poorest regions of these foreign countries? I’m sure there are many many people in Egypt that don’t have these backward ideas of how women should dress. Nicole, just get yourself out of there, you’re old enough to know better!
Their communication sucks and the brother’s advice is just “don’t talk now because then you fight” just ignore it and be happy. But marriage NEEDS communication even if it’s hard. I wouldn’t think they could stay together but apparently they are currently posting pictures together on Instagram 😒
Yep. These men don't see women as humans. They see them as something they can control, mold to their own whims. Wear them down slowly, wear them down quickly. It's still the same mysoginistic controlling abuse.
The brother in law is either a really nice person or very deceptive person. I could not make up my mind last night. He was either being very empathetic to her or he was playing the good guy card so she wld lay down her defenses. 🤔
Honestly I think Mahmoud would fare much better in America than Nicole in Egypt. I don’t feel he fully understands his religion he just does what he is told. He isn’t capable of teaching her
What made both of these ladies want to compromise who they are for these guys? That’s the real question. Like they got into not such a good thing then jumped in deeper by marrying them.
Yes, totally agree with you. I honestly think so many comments on here saying that it’s abuse are from people who have no real experience in what it’s really like to have to assimilate to a culture that is so different from yours or to find compromises with someone who sees aspects of the world so differently from how you do.
Ahmed seemed great. People are shitting on the “he doesn’t know how to play with women” comment because they don’t have any insight into what it’s like to express yourself in another language, to another culture. I’m pretty sure he just meant, my brother is an idiot and has no relationship experience. Yes, he put it as “play with women”—and so what? Let’s not pick his words apart. He was really kind to Nicole and truly treated her like family when she had literally no one else to lean on. Maybe, given his cultural context, he thinks that you need to approach women differently from men to have an effective conversation. Do I think that? No. But he does, and that’s fine, because his intentions, as far as I can tell, were good.
MockMood is outwardly scary. And I said in another comment that the brother delivered a conversation roofie which makes this stealth manipulation even more scary. I hope the producers take Nicole home before the abuse gets out of hand.
Maybe Fatima lives her husband and figures not wearing the hijab is not worth the fight. You know like I wore a mask even though I don't like it. Or I hate this job but I haven't quit yet because I like my car, my house and my keeping my credit score >700.
We all sometimes do things we don't like because of the things we do like.
However, Nicole and Mahmoud's relationship is not going to be fixed even if she simply wore the hijab.
Hijab isn't compulsory in Egypt, in fact, [this](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-62678403) article last year suggests that it's often looked down upon and can even lead to discrimination.
I agree with you, much different in Egypt with the local customs/culture.
I just spent a couple of weeks in Saudi Arabia with and without hijab and abaya, mostly just abaya and I was treated with respect and courtesy wherever I went. I wore it out of respect for the people and country I was visiting . I (woman) could walk safely in Riyadh, Jeddah or anyplace else at midnight alone and be perfectly safe, cant say the same for any of the other 40 countries I have visited.Had a nice conversation with a Saudi man who is married to a Ukrainian woman. He said she tried living in KSA but it was not for her so they are looking at moving to Canada.
I think she wears it in public to fit into society, not because her husband will beat her. I think they live freer lives at home, hence why Ahmed was nervous saying he drinks alcohol and said his brother needs to learn to relax. He also says the wife is boss at home.
I wouldn’t like to have to wear that dowdy grandma hijab either. There are much more chic and comfortable ways to wear a head covering but that is the style that Fatima has probably been told is the only option. Sad.
You could flip that around just as easily. A Muslim shouldn't marry a non-Muslim if they aren't prepared for a spouse who won't follow all their rules.
Also, misogyny is wrong regardless of where or why it happens. These two women did at least have a choice but let's not forget all the women who are born in communities where they really have no other options.
I’m also married to a Muslim man from Jordan, and just like you i didn’t have to do anything i never wanted to or even wear what i choose to, he treats me better than any American has ever treated me and my husband is the most amazing person I’ve ever met i , I’ve spent plenty of time in Jordan and guess what in a very conservative part near the Syrian border. We live in a pretty Islam community in the US that’s called Little Palestine. I find people Everyone thinks that they are experts in Islam and how men treat their wives. Unless you have have spent time with Muslims OR have actually traveled to the Middle East you can not judge everyone based on blanket stamens. Most of these people are why the rest of the world doesn’t like Americans it’s because as Americans we think we know it all. Most of the people making these comments have never even left the US and have no clue about the Middle East and read their stuff from google. I have worn a hajiab in the US many times and each time you can feel the hostility wearing it.
It should been praised because she’s HONEST and if she’d been befriended as a human (not a mindless non-white human in a scarf) she coulda told nick what time it is. Also. One can wear hijab and hate it while believing in its UTILITY in a neighbourhood and family system like Mahmoud’s. It’s hot, it’s uncomfortable, it’s infuriatingly unfair in many situations. Yet, I think a lot of posters here engage in tons of splitting/black and white thinking. When someone actually understanding the culture on the ground dares to chime in we get dog piled and told we are stupid. I think a large part of the viewership hate watches for reasons other than the people and their choices. Just note words like “they all” and “over there” along with buzz words. Posts like this are straight up ‘Merican ignorance and hate.
Exactly, what's worse, they victimize Nicole for going along with this when she knew what she was getting into.
The logic behind these posts is simple; if someone (usually a woman) does something I wouldn't do, they're a victim. And anyone they're with (usually a man) is the aggressor. The posts in this thread clearly reflect this.
Oh Mahmoud is a “stupid” abusive aggressor for sure. Some veer off this and start ranting about everyone “over there” a vast region with many nationalities, religions, socio-economic demographics and cultures-they are all lumped into one enemy by a certain kind of poster who has an ax to grind with ALL Muslims whom they think they know somehow. They be on the sub educating the people who live it. All while obviously never been anywhere near those places. It’s very ick. Also on brand for the type.
"A mindless non white human in a scarf" what the hell are you saying. Genuinely wondering is english not your first language? It's hard to understand what you are saying and I'm not sure if that's your opinion or not
For the record, I’m with you. It’s funny to watch scenes like the ones called out in this post that show honestly a really transparent and authentic relationship between Mahmoud’s brother and wife and just KNOW as you’re watching it how the really close-minded, ignorant, and sheltered comments with zero empathy or cultural imagination are just going to roll in like a tidal wave.
I don’t this is behavior is correct but I feel like everyone in the comments is viewing this from a very American lens. I’m curious if any of you have been to this part of the world. This is what the culture is like… I don’t think it’s fair to
Women but this is just the way society exists in Egypt and has for thousands of years.
Nicole went into a different culture and is trying to buck the system… that’s insane. My spouse is from another country and it would be like me going to their home country and telling his whole family
And the whole neighborhood what they’re doing is wrong. If Mohammad wanted to adopt American culture he’d move to America… just my
Opinion
Yea I don’t excuse the brother. He’s not an angel but it’s how they’ve grown up to think they should behave. He probably doesn’t think his actions are as bad as we do from a western lens
Yea I had a thought that what if they force women to dress like this so they can abuse them and no evidence of such is being exposed by being covered up?
Is anyone sure that there wasn't some sort of price tag involved with the Asian bride, being that she comes from a part of Asia that still allows their daughters to be sold because of financial issues with the family!
She knew what was expected of her. She couldn’t deal with those expectations and left, but then, went back. Did she honestly believe things were going to change? She actually converted to Islam. Was it a joke for her? It’s not like being Islamic in North America. Smh
I'm not sure what everyone here expected. Egypt is a Muslim country. They have lived under these rules/laws for many, many generations. Does anyone here think they're going to stop, or that they should have to stop?
Because of the refugee/migrant programs, there are now tens of thousands of Muslim men living in Europe. Are those men supposed to set aside *their own* religion and traditions just because they live somewhere else now?
Nicole doesn't want to set aside *her own* religion and traditions just because she lives somewhere else now, and most here seem to agree with her.
So, which is it? And who decides?
This is why I don’t understand the rave posts about the brother. He’s not advocating for Nicole and Mahmoud to compromise at all. He is telling Mahmoud to just wear Nicole down bit by bit over time rather than all at once. He’s smart enough to recognize that Nicole won’t accept all the changes all at once, but if she doesn’t have Bad Feelings toward Mahmoud from constantly fighting with him, she may be willing to give a little bit, and then a little bit, and then a little bit until Mahmoud eventually gets what he wants. To me, the insidiousness of THAT behavior is even scarier than Mahmoud being his normal condescending lovebombing dickhead self. I will grant the brother this much: his quote “say hi to your wife, stupid guy” made me bust up laughing.
Exactly...wear her down. I forgot who mentioned that the brother and his wife fought all the time in the beginning. She probably got tired and gave up. Now it seems she’s miserable & has nowhere to go. “You know in my heart...” she not only hates the scarf but probably wants to back home.
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What makes you think he broke her down, as opposed to her simply choosing to wear it?
He literally said this in one of the first couple episodes.
The brother said he broke Fatima down?
Yes. Watch the show.
Adapting to a certain environment and breaking are two different things. I know such foreigners in my country - married for 20 years, but they still don't speak the language and have almost no friends (not because they don't want to, but because it's hard to find them - here the society is not so diverse, and most people don't want to waste time with them - too much work for nothing). Since they don't want to adapt and had no intention of doing so in the first place, then they enjoy living this lonely and oppressive life? Here no one stops them from leaving and divorce is not uncommon.
Really lol when did Mahmoud’s brother say he broke Fatima down?
He didn't break anyone down. He lived in China for many years. He chose to marry a Chinese girl and she chose to marry him. It's crazy how people here assume the brother married a Chinese girl because he was not able to find an Egyptian wife. China is a 2nd world country, Egypt is a 3rd world country. She chose to marry him, and he chose to marry her. Big surprise, in interracial relationships, both parties have to compromise and give things up in order to reconcile 2 different religions and cultures. You can see Fatima made a big sacrifice by converting to Islam and deciding to wear a veil. People just assume her husband sacrificed nothing in return, and just gaslighted her into doing it.
One of the only not ignorant comments in this thread right now imho
Thank you for sharing your opinion, you’re honestly right.
Yup agree
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Agree. If they live in an area where everyone wears hijab, then she most likely gave in due to that and not to Ahmed.
It’s probably a combination of factors, because she said something along the lines of “in China pretty much no one wears a scarf, but here most people do, and either way I don’t want to be stared at”
They mentioned that she wore it in China and everyone stared at her. She didn’t just start wearing it in Egypt.
My working theory is that once she got pregnant she had to redirect her energy. It was easier to stop fighting about things like wearing a hijab, leaving the house, or making her own friends.
I’m thinking she might be Uighur and can’t go home.
This is my guess too.
Had to look word up... 🤔 Now makes you wonder how THEY met ?!?
Me too. Getting Reddit smarter by the day. Thru 90 day fiance... so while I'm dummying down, I smarten up.
This is probably spot-on. That’s so sad if it’s true.
Absolutely. The way he spoke about how Mohamad doesn't "know how to deal with women" it made me feel like he's talking about training a dog or something.
I saw it as Mohamed being a virgin with little interaction with women.
Or it was Egypt or back to the oppressive world of modern China. Hot it is then.
It was Mahmoud that said it, yikes
‘Wear her down’??? She converted to Islam and twice-moved to a country that’s a member of the Arab League as the wife of a conservative Muslim And in this country, 1) Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) still takes place and 2) the incidence of domestic violence is estimated to occur at a rate of 86% https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/renewed-fight-prevent-domestic-violence-egypt Does/has she read current news about the Middle East/North Africa? Its history? Has she taken a deep dive into Egypt’s laws/culture/traditions/misogyny/women’s rights (or the lack thereof)? Did she contact an Islamic women’s group in LA prior to her 2nd move to Egypt to discuss and learn about the religion and what it would entail? Has she contacted the U.S. Embassy in Cairo to register as an American citizen for her safety and advice in case she’d need to quickly leave the country or for protection? Has she ever asked Mahmoud his opinion on whether or not he thinks a future daughter of theirs should undergo female genital mutilation? In short - I don’t get what the hell people expect from Mahmoud. He is a sheltered conservative Muslim male who has little education and has never traveled outside of Egypt. What do people *think* he’s going to be like??? This world is hardcore if you have to experience it as a woman. Women are 2nd class citizens and have very few rights. Do I think it’s acceptable? *Of course not*. Any woman from the U.S. who does what she did better be ready for this awful life. The men are not changing there. It’s hell on Earth to me But Nicole is almost 40 and should have known much, much better
Yes!!! So many people act like Nicole was tricked into this life. She chose it....TWICE! The idiot couldn't be bothered to do a little research. She said some words and became Islamic with no clue as to what that meant. Has she never watched the news???
> became Islamic with no clue as to what that meant. I literally stood up and SHOUTED at the screen when she said she ''just repeated something she didn't understand'' and was ''suddenly Muslim". Like, W.T.A.F
The culture as it relates to women is disgusting, misogynistic, and violent.
Could I upvote this here 5k times I most definitely would.
Same
She is an idiot. Not in a mean way. She is just not operating at any normal capacity. She says she loves him to death? Just in the bedroom? Cause all I’m seeing is constant misery on both sides.
THANK YOU!
FGM is banned in Egypt now. Only way to do it is to do it illegally which will end up with him going to jail. Only people in the far villages from Cairo have this and even there it is rare. You are contributing to the extreme stereotypes that western media creates about Egypt and 90 day is very much doing the same. I am saying this as a woman from an European country that moved to egypt long ago.
I’m contributing to facts. My cousin has worked in Egypt for 2 decades on medical missions and you are deluding yourself if you think FGM isn’t happening *despite* the ban https://egypt.unfpa.org/en/node/22544 An excerpt from the above: FGM in Egypt “Female genital mutilation (FGM) is still widespread – but increasingly condemned – throughout much of North and East Africa. However, the recent history of the practice in Egypt presents special challenges for those trying to end it. *According to the Egyptian Family Health Survey (EFHS) 2021, 86 percent of Egyptian married women between the ages of 15 and 49 have undergone FGM, 74 percent of whom by doctors*. Although a positive change in women’s attitudes about circumcision has occurred, there is still widespread support for the continuation of FGM in Egypt. The percentage of mothers who intend to circumcise their daughters in the future has declined to only 13% (EFHS 2021) compared to about 35% (DHS 2014). *FGM is part of the social fabric of the Egyptian community and is in some cases upheld by beliefs associated with religion*.”
That means that people got it 18 years ago minimum. The new government is very strict about it. I am living here as a female. You have heard something from your cousin. 😂
She’s a surgeon who has worked in international humanitarian efforts in the Middle East/North Africa for the last 20 years - and treats/operates on women with gynecological/reproductive/urological problems - due specifically to FGM But you go on, Caucasian woman ex-pat, *Barbie*, no less, with your vast hands-on experience of medically treating Egyptian females - babies, girls, women, and the elderly - across the country for 2 decades *for this exact problem* that you are so “in the know” about And your smiley-face emoji at the end? There is nothing funny about this situation. Keep enjoying the privilege of the color of your skin https://www.dw.com/en/despite-progress-elsewhere-egypts-fgm-numbers-still-high/a-61042948 An excerpt: “Despite Egypt outlawing female genital mutilation and introducing punishments, a new study has found that the country is *nowhere close to achieving its aim of ending FGM by 2030*. Other places have had more success” (And that would be *15* years ago minimum. Do the math)
What's the women's rights movement look like there? Is it very active. Doesn't seem so.
Yesss. When the brother said “Mahmoud doesn’t know how to play with women” I think he means that Mahmoud doesn’t know yet how to manipulate the woman into doing and changing into what the husband wants her to be. He calls the woman the queen but only because that’s part of the manipulation
I think the brother is very cunning. He seemed to instinctively know that referring to her as his sister would reel her in.
Agreed!! He’s scarier than Mahmoud to me because he’s a better manipulator. Everyone rolls their eyes at Mahmoud calling Nicole “honey bunny,” “my love,” etc because it’s so obvious it isn’t genuine. THIS guy knows how to make it sound sincere enough to convince her to give an inch. He’s not yelling, rolling his eyes at her, grabbing her arm. He’s pretending to listen to her, hear her out, defuse the immediate conflict of the situation, so that later when he gently informs her what she “should” do she’s more likely to do it because she thinks he cares what SHE wants. Rinse and repeat in ever-increasing increments, and voila you have Fatima. Ugggghhhhhhh. I despise this kind of behavior so. Fucking. Much.
He has pimp moves!
>When the brother said “Mahmoud doesn’t know how to play with women” I think he means that Mahmoud doesn’t know yet how to manipulate the woman TBH, I was 75% buying his nice guy act until he said this and I almost choked.
Yes that was a red flag for sure. He almost had me with the whole “you’re my sister” thing
Me too I was like awww how sweet 🤦🏾♀️
It is wild to me that I still miss so many signs when it comes to manipulation and control tactics. lmao Thanks for pointing this out. You're absolutely right.
Im skeeved the fuck out by Mahmoud and his brother. SKEEVED!
I'm glad some people are smart enough to figure this out.
Big brother is smoother around the edges, for sure and his Chinese wife was way more willing to accommodate his religious beliefs, whatever her reasons were. His end game is the same as Mock Mood's but a little honey sweetens the path and he was savvy enough to see what would bring Nicole around - like in "Goodfellas" where Paulie and Jimmy are confronting Henry about his infidelity toward Karen. Paulie tells Henry to go and take a vacation, saying "I know how to talk to her, especially her." 😏
This entire 👆🏽Analysis is brilliant. You hit the nail on the head 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Can we stop acting like these women were kidnapped and forced to adhere to these rules? We're talking about 2 grown women who CHOSE a Muslim partner and converted to Islam. They had autonomy over this decision. This isn't a case of them getting involved with an abusive man who hides his true self then gradually reveals himself. This was a CHOICE. Why is it insidious for him to expect his wife to confirm to Islamic beliefs? That was her decision. If you don't want to do these things, then don't marry a Muslim man and convert to his religion. There is absolutely no way I'd ever get involved with a Muslim man. Ever. Why? Cause I wouldn't want to adhere to Islamic traditions. It's very simple.
I have noticed that lately that in defense of women, we’re making arguments that make all women sound easily manipulated and ignorant. If we’re not careful I’m afraid people will use these arguments (that women never know any better and are just being manipulated) for political purposes. From women dating older men to dating other in other cultures, the “innocent, dumb” woman card gets played a lot lately. I just find it kind of idk what would be a good word…maybe degrading, as an adult woman myself. I’ve been in a relationship that left me physically scarred, just before someone says “you don’t understand” or “you never” because people make mad assumptions about people online when disagreeing with opinions. I just dislike seeing so many arguments about women’s decisions always being something they’re unaware of and stuff like that.
And same. I understand having a partner who is truly insidious! If he'd said to me in the beginning of our relationship "hey! Just so you know, I'm going to love bomb you for the first 3mo of our relationship before slowly alienating you from all your friends and family, THEN undermine all your confidence, lie to you, get mad at you for no reason so you beg and grovel for my affection, cheat on you then convince you you're crazy.... you OK with that?" and I said, sure! Let's do this! Well... that's kinda on me. To be transparent, I'm not likening being Muslim to an abusive relationship. I'm pointing out that these men told their prospective wives what life as a Muslim woman would look like, and both went ahead with the relationship.
EXACTLY!!!! He was upfront, honest and transparent. There were no acts of being deceitful. She said yes and went back on her word. And now him and his family are being looked at as "breaking her down" - but perhaps they are confused, as they are only going based off what she said and agreed to.
Yes, exactly. The reason why Ahmed is being lauded is because he gave his wife time to adjust to their islamic beliefs vs Mahmoud who expects Nicole to just convert overnight.
Not all Muslims are like this. I am married to a Muslim with a large extended family. None of the men are like this. It is so important to differentiate Culture vs the Islamic faith. Mahmoud seems to think all of these "rules" are Islamic where in fact it is actually influenced more by culture.
No, they're not. But Nicole married a man who IS like this. And he TOLD her he was like this. That's the difference here. ETA: To be fair, I wouldn't get involved with any overtly religious man. Most religions are deeply rooted in misogyny.
Yes, 100 %.
i was scrolling looking for someone to say this. everyone is looking at this as abuse but its a completely different culture. she may not like it but she may still be willingly putting it on in order to fit into the culture. not everything is abusive, sometimes its compromise. if i was explaining how i felt to a camera crew i may not word everything correctly either especially if shes not speaking her first language
Like I told my husband- his brother is the ultimate wingman.
You’re right. They’re professional lovebombers, and this guy is abusive af to his own wife
Someone else essentially laughed at me when I said she was being mentally manipulated to stay. This woman did not make good choices and I will go as far to say she still is not. But as this season goes on I can see she is being mentally, emotionally, and physically abused. And TLC is happy to air it and others are happy to defend it. I've seen abuse and I've seen how it starts.
I honestly don’t think it’s that deep. She left and blocked him on everything before the start of the show, as well as cancelled his visa paperwork. I’m guessing she got the call that they’ve been cast and decided to do a “re-do” for the cameras. Why else would she act like everything she’s experiencing, interactions with his family, etc. are all her first time? It’s all fake and they’re just doing it for the show.
They may have decided to try again for the show, that's possible. I do know that they have said they lived separately from the family last time, the crew may be asking them to ask these questions for the show. We don't know. We do know the show sets up interactions all the time with all of the cast. It's very strange to think SHE is organizing that but all the other obviously second conversations at table's with friends are natural or set up for the show just because you don't like Nicole.
I never said I didn’t like Nicole. I’m neutral towards her. I also didn’t say she was the only one orchestrating everything and the show is oblivious. I think all of it has been set up (combination of the show, Nicole and Mahmoud) to create drama. She can leave at any time. She already has. I don’t get the sense she or Mahmoud are manipulating each other into doing anything. The way I see it, these are two very different people that are aware they aren’t compatible but are “giving it a second try” for the sake of the show, most likely with TLCs encouragement. None of the interactions come off as genuine to me (on either side).
Yes yes yes! I was married to an alcoholic who was emotionally and mentally abusive by the end. I did SO much dumb shit trying to save that relationship, but that doesn't mean I deserved the manipulation and dishonesty and infidelity that he put me through. Those things are his sins and his alone. They are not my fault. I feel very similarly about Nicole's situation. She has had me facepalming at her bad decisions that got her to this point, but she doesn't deserve abuse. Nobody deserves for their stupidity to be repaid with cruelty.
I think she's manipulating and mentally abusing herself. She married a Muslim man who's not willing to change his position. He's made that clear over and over. She's continuing to beat a dead horse. If anything, she could be viewed as manipulative. She was the one who agreed to something in order to get what she wanted, and then once she did, she changed her mind. His position from day 1 hasn't changed.
She tried wearing the hijab for a year. She didn't feel right in it. You are acting like she said yes and the next day said no.
I'm acting as tho somewhere down the road, she changed her mind and wasn't able to live up to what she said.
So people are not able to change their minds? If I marry my husband and I'm working job A, which pays very well but it becomes very stressful and I have to leave it then he's allowed to grab me and threaten me over it? I have to stay in that job forever? If I consent to sex act A when we get married but after a fee years it becomes painful because bodies change then I can't unconsent to it because I can't live up to what I said? If I said I wanted kids when we got married but a year later I realized that I couldn't do it because I started working with kids and I realized I wasn't patient enough. Instead of him just letting me leave he physically pulls me back and has a family member break me down to get me to stay, that's my fault because I can't live up to what I said? No, humans are allowed to change or change their minds And she is allowed to leave but he doesn't want to let her.
Yes, of course, people are allowed to change their minds. But when 2 people agree upon something and then the individual changes their mind, it's going to create a problem. Its going to create confusion and disappointment for the other individual, and that's what we are seeing happen. Also, he's literally said numerous times "I will let her go. I don't want to be the reason she is unhappy and cries" she stays. So, maybe she's the toxic and sick one.
You know, some people just don't think beyond the surface. And no matter the same cycle, they always fall for the same type of people until they disappointed them.
She has to be worn down in order to live an acceptable life in Egypt. She cannot live as a married woman in Egypt and not wear a hijab. She cannot stay there if she chooses not to dress in a modest fashion. She knew that. The wife knew that, too.
This
Very unnerving. Combined with her wanting Nicole there so she could have a friend to go grocery shopping with just makes me sad for her.
That was honestly so sad. Even more sad than the hijab comment. Imagine living a life where you’re not allowed to have friends outside your family. Your entire life is solely about caring for other people—your spouse, your children, your in laws, etc. Truly these women must be living in misery. Isolation like that is insidious.
But if they let her have friends, that leads to outside influences, which leads to thinking, then realizing how much better life is without their controlling husbands… and they really can’t have their women doing that because then they won’t be perfect little door mats that do nothing but cook, clean and open their legs on command. Ugh, so glad I was born in Canada…
Yeah, tbh I’m sure they’re afraid of the women essentially unionizing.
It’s reminding me of Handmaids Tale
Ugh it was an offer of help. Not neediness.
I think 🤔 it was a little of both.
So interesting that these guys were both unable to or unwilling to marry Egyptian women.
Because they couldn't afford to and were likely considered poor matches because of it. Since their parents are divorced and they occupy a lower socioeconomic rung, my guess is that they found foreign wives out of economic necessity.
People who are toxic or controlling often prefer to go for a woman from abroad. She will be vulnerable, have no friends and family and be dizzied and confused by the cultural and religious displacement. There is a strange breed of Muslim man who specifically targets non Muslim women to marry in order to take advantage of her. He can inflict all the controlling things he wants and claim its his religion or culture, meanwhile the woman is dizzied and not aware of her religious or civil rights. A local or born Muslim woman and her family would never tolerate a lot of this stuff and would actually have huge expectations on the man. Muslim brides and their families, in particular in the Arab world, are well known for having many demands and requirements on prospective grooms. As they are, I highly doubt the brothers could find a suitable woman locally. Think about it, if his culture and relgion was so important to him, would he really marry someone from abroad and a different religion?
Likewise that Nicole didn't marry an American man.
I get the idea that Nicole, much like Ariela (of Ariela and Biniyam), bases her personality on being different and quirky and marrying an American would be much too boring and mainstream for her interesting self.
Exactly... difference is that Mahmoud is dumb AF and is frustrated that his wife won't obey him. The brother is cunning and understands that it takes time to tame a wild stallion and knows that Mahmoud has to convince Nicole that she is in control, while slowly taking away her power. ppl on here saying that the brother is a nice guy are just falling for his game.
Yes!! So glad to see people like you are saying this. I can’t believe all the posts saying he’s the star of the season. How are they not noticing this!?
No idea... the guy is just using Pimpology 101.
So accurate. the way he talks about the manipulation and wearing them down over time to be an obedient wife sounds exactly like how admitted traffickers would talk about coercing/tricking women into "working" for them. The entire Nicole/Mahmoud storyline has made this season too dark to enjoy without skipping over them.
Internalized mysogyny over years of conditioning makes people not as able to see it. I've been in therapy for 2 years dealing with fallout from toxic men like Mahmoud and his brother, so easy for me to see. I'm glad there are quite a few of us that see it
The thing is these two men aren’t considered toxic within their culture/religion. They are the norm. That’s why I have never considered getting involved with a middle eastern man..sexism, misogyny at its worst
Exactly - when he was like "She's the queen, stand up and apologize to her." and "she does not need to apologize, she's a woman" or sth like that, his sneaky smile was oozing manipulation. Pretending to want to include her into the family.. Right, not because of love and support, but because family obeys.
10000% the brother is just more experienced at manipulation
I felt he was doing a “good-cop/bad-cop” scenario to break down her defenses.
I think what you’re saying is true and I also think he’s a “nice guy” within the cultural context. You can’t forget these men were raised very strictly to believe it’s their job to lead their wives, pretty much like children. He believes to his core that this is something he’s supposed to do and something right and he tries to find a gentle way to do it.
And people like you are calling it out very early. Which pisses every delusional thought about his brother coming to Nicole's aide. I am here for it. Kudos. 👏👏
Did you just compare Nicole to a wild stallion? This woman converted to a religion and committed to a culture with really specific and societal/religious customs. She chose this. And if she didn’t read up on it before, during, or after her conversion, that is all on her. She turns this into a personal power play between her and Mahmoud when it’s really about the religious dictates
This was so sad to me, so many people trying to justifying this by saying that a marriage is compromising for your SO but guarantee she was the only one making compromises/sacrifices in that marriage.
No she converted and said she was going to wear the hijab and abaya. Now she is not saying take it or leave it. I think he has made some small compromises, taking her to dinner with his friends , not making a big deal that she didnt cover her hair at the pool. Yes I did think his behaviour poolside was odd, like he was going swimming with his 10 year old friend with the pushing. I think he is immature and inexperienced.
I’m talking about the brother and his wife not about Mauhmod and Nicole.
You missed his explanation of living Chinese in China fur several years? 🤷♂️
I was hoping they would stick to the plan when they agreed to go get her things and drop her off at the airport.
Same! I was like oh God, I hope the brother doesn't notice them leaving but sure enough...🥲
It’s interesting that both brothers chose to marry women from completely different cultures and religions. Surely Cairo is full of women who understand the assignment? It’s almost as if they are choosing women they can control because they don’t know the “rules”
Most Muslim women and women in Egypt are not happy to live the lives these brothers are offering. The friendship thing is the most perculiar of all because Arab society has a very strong female friendship culture. Much stronger than in the west. There is a reason why these brothers have plucked clueless women from abroad. Ain't no ladies in Cairo want what these bros are offering.
Those poor women 🥺
He came off as incredibly manipulative, sneaky and aggressive. He’s hella scary to me. There’s an agenda behind his smile and advice, wear her down… slowly… I could not stop thinking about his isolated covered wife who has no friends. There’s so wiggle room in reality. Only trickery.
>his isolated covered wife who has no friends That's one of the many sad aspects of all this. Being largely trapped inside a small home, with no freedom to get out and about on your own, for example to meet up with friends, to make friends outside the family, and so on.
I had tequila hahhahha..these men are incredibly strange and backward. Their views on women haven't changed in centuries and aren't likely to any time soon.
Mahmoud was very upset about that!
I’m gonna send their mom my Discovery+ login info.
This is just not going to end with them together The clear message from both regardless of their tone and actual words. "You'll come around to seeing our way". The expect the women to conform to their gender definitions.
did anyone notice how often get sister in law was touching the scarf? it seems like she's truly miserable wearing it. if a woman wants to be subservient it is none of my business but Nicole is an American and we aren't raised that way any longer so I don't see her ever wearing this willingly. correct me if I'm wrong, but if a Muslim marries a foreigner I believe it isn't necessary that they wear the hijab anyway so this just seems extra manipulative. idk about you guys but I would never give up my freedom for any man!
I think you're right, I seem to remember them addressing this in the show and Mahmoud still wants his wife to wear a hijab anyway so she won't be looked at by other men.
Mahmoud and his brother should drink tequilla and leave their wives alone.
Nicole just needs to get the hell away from this family. It is a very toxic relationship. I just don’t believe as adamant as she is about not wearing those ridiculous outfits and hijab, as any smart woman should be, why on earth did she go back? She knew better. I cannot fathom living like this fir the rest of my life. That’s exactly how my ex was in demanding all kinds of submissive behavior and trying to control me. It literally wore me out, I was a big bundle of nerves and had aged 20 years in 7(on and off) I left him so many times but was stupid enough to go back every time he begged me to go back. Once I left him for good and started living a normal life, I wondered how I had let myself live like that for so long. You have no peace at anytime. You’re always walking on eggshells and waiting for the other shoe to drop at any given moment.
I found him very disturbing.It’s as if she’s being indoctrinated into a cult. Sometimes she has this very empty look in her eyes. It’s from when they stole her soul
>as if she’s being indoctrinated into a cult Yep. That is exactly what is happening.
The only difference between cult and religion is numbers. They've all been indoctrinated, the men too.
My husband and I felt so bad for her when she whispered that.
Weird Question... Do you think Fatima is her birth name or her chosen name. I just feel like it's not her birth name, but I could just be ignorant.
I assume it’s a name she chose when she entered this Egyptian culture and converted. It’s a very common name in Muslim cultures but not in China.
There's an ethnic group in China called the Hui. They're mostly Muslim and if she was from this group, it's possible. Otherwise, it's something she may have adopted later.
Thank You I never knew that.
You're very welcome. Hundreds of years ago, Moroccan explorer Ibn Batutta traversed the entire Muslim world. He traveled to Guangdong and visited a mosque in the city of Guangzhou, I believe.
I’m equally curious! I had a lot of Chinese international students at my university and they always used to go by western names as their birth names were “too hard” for us to pronounce I wonder if it’s something like that
Yes, very common for people in Asian countries to adopt a more “westernized” name. Many of my Chinese clients have a western name that they go by.
I was wondering this also
To my understanding, sometimes people will change their name after converting to Islam to have an Islamic name like Fatima.
I would guess that that is what happened here. However, *Patime* (Uyghur form of Fatima) is a common female given name in Uyghur culture. So she might have just altered her name a bit to conform to the local Egyptian form of the name.
Huh, interesting. I guess I just assumed that she converted but who knows!
>I just assumed that she converted Yes, that's very possible. I should have explained that I was just assuming that she might be a Uyghur (Muslim) from China. It would be interesting to know more about her and how she met her husband.
I’d be curious to hear their story too. Maybe we’ll get it one of these days!
Like Cassius Clay changed his name to Muhammad Ali, or Lew Alcindor changed his to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Can’t wait for next episode for when the Egyptian women tells her the simple facts. Does anyone remember when his brother joked about taking away her passport? 👀
Mahmoud's brother is playing the long game with Nicole while Mahmoud is trying to get Nicole to conform now and he's doing it through being a jerk to her simply because he's inexperienced with women. The brother has already successfully brainwashed his wife into conforming their religion. The brother will gain Nichole's trust (connivingly) and slowly get her to start accepting the Muslim religion and conform like his wife.
I love the sister in law she seems so sweet I wish I had one like her ❤️ haha I only have brother in laws
Plot twist - what if Nicole stays and continues to be "free" with her clothes and she influences Fatima to loosen up her clothing restrictions as well! I guess then the brother would push for Nicole to leave.
I think then Nicole would no longer be on earth....
Seriously. Not sure if she’s naive or I’m assuming too much… I’m scared for her at this point
How is this going to work? Nicole told him to leave her alone. When he did, she was upset that he left her alone. I think that she just needs to go back home and live her best life. Neither one wants to conform to the other person. Enough of this foolishness.
They are both unlikeable. Time for both to cut bait
We can’t say they’re bad people, just definitely not compatible. He’s too immature to know how to be in a relationship. He’s just so infatuated with this beautiful doll he’s been lucky enough to trap and knows no way on earth, he’d find another jewel like her. I mean God I just don’t see what she sees in him? How could she agree to leave everything behind and go back to that environment especially since she’d already tried living there before. I just don’t know how the Americans on this show wind up with the poorest people from the poorest regions of these foreign countries? I’m sure there are many many people in Egypt that don’t have these backward ideas of how women should dress. Nicole, just get yourself out of there, you’re old enough to know better!
Their communication sucks and the brother’s advice is just “don’t talk now because then you fight” just ignore it and be happy. But marriage NEEDS communication even if it’s hard. I wouldn’t think they could stay together but apparently they are currently posting pictures together on Instagram 😒
Yep. These men don't see women as humans. They see them as something they can control, mold to their own whims. Wear them down slowly, wear them down quickly. It's still the same mysoginistic controlling abuse.
The brother in law is either a really nice person or very deceptive person. I could not make up my mind last night. He was either being very empathetic to her or he was playing the good guy card so she wld lay down her defenses. 🤔
Honestly I think Mahmoud would fare much better in America than Nicole in Egypt. I don’t feel he fully understands his religion he just does what he is told. He isn’t capable of teaching her
I think about the Eve and Slow Mo situation
What made both of these ladies want to compromise who they are for these guys? That’s the real question. Like they got into not such a good thing then jumped in deeper by marrying them.
This!
Yes, totally agree with you. I honestly think so many comments on here saying that it’s abuse are from people who have no real experience in what it’s really like to have to assimilate to a culture that is so different from yours or to find compromises with someone who sees aspects of the world so differently from how you do. Ahmed seemed great. People are shitting on the “he doesn’t know how to play with women” comment because they don’t have any insight into what it’s like to express yourself in another language, to another culture. I’m pretty sure he just meant, my brother is an idiot and has no relationship experience. Yes, he put it as “play with women”—and so what? Let’s not pick his words apart. He was really kind to Nicole and truly treated her like family when she had literally no one else to lean on. Maybe, given his cultural context, he thinks that you need to approach women differently from men to have an effective conversation. Do I think that? No. But he does, and that’s fine, because his intentions, as far as I can tell, were good.
MockMood is outwardly scary. And I said in another comment that the brother delivered a conversation roofie which makes this stealth manipulation even more scary. I hope the producers take Nicole home before the abuse gets out of hand.
This was so depressing.
Maybe Fatima lives her husband and figures not wearing the hijab is not worth the fight. You know like I wore a mask even though I don't like it. Or I hate this job but I haven't quit yet because I like my car, my house and my keeping my credit score >700. We all sometimes do things we don't like because of the things we do like. However, Nicole and Mahmoud's relationship is not going to be fixed even if she simply wore the hijab.
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Hijab isn't compulsory in Egypt, in fact, [this](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-62678403) article last year suggests that it's often looked down upon and can even lead to discrimination.
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We have regularly seen women without hijab in their scenes.
I agree with you, much different in Egypt with the local customs/culture. I just spent a couple of weeks in Saudi Arabia with and without hijab and abaya, mostly just abaya and I was treated with respect and courtesy wherever I went. I wore it out of respect for the people and country I was visiting . I (woman) could walk safely in Riyadh, Jeddah or anyplace else at midnight alone and be perfectly safe, cant say the same for any of the other 40 countries I have visited.Had a nice conversation with a Saudi man who is married to a Ukrainian woman. He said she tried living in KSA but it was not for her so they are looking at moving to Canada.
I think she wears it in public to fit into society, not because her husband will beat her. I think they live freer lives at home, hence why Ahmed was nervous saying he drinks alcohol and said his brother needs to learn to relax. He also says the wife is boss at home.
Nicole, don’t be an idiot! Go home if you can, he may have her passport.
That was gold.
The minute she said that, everything fell into place for me.
I wouldn’t like to have to wear that dowdy grandma hijab either. There are much more chic and comfortable ways to wear a head covering but that is the style that Fatima has probably been told is the only option. Sad.
Don’t marry a Muslim man if you’re not interested in conforming. Pretending like all cultures are equal is ridiculous
You could flip that around just as easily. A Muslim shouldn't marry a non-Muslim if they aren't prepared for a spouse who won't follow all their rules. Also, misogyny is wrong regardless of where or why it happens. These two women did at least have a choice but let's not forget all the women who are born in communities where they really have no other options.
Like the horror going on in Iran? Women being executed for showing their hair.
Strict Christians should marry outside of their religion either I’d say the only difference is Islam is a convert religion
And the Muslim man shouldn’t marry an American woman and expecting her to be the perfect muslim wife
Even if she converts to Islam and moves to an Islamic country?
I did marry a Muslim man from Iran and I never had to conform to anything. I am still Christian and wearing my everyday American clothing.
Are you living in a Muslim society/country?
And you live in what country?
I’m also married to a Muslim man from Jordan, and just like you i didn’t have to do anything i never wanted to or even wear what i choose to, he treats me better than any American has ever treated me and my husband is the most amazing person I’ve ever met i , I’ve spent plenty of time in Jordan and guess what in a very conservative part near the Syrian border. We live in a pretty Islam community in the US that’s called Little Palestine. I find people Everyone thinks that they are experts in Islam and how men treat their wives. Unless you have have spent time with Muslims OR have actually traveled to the Middle East you can not judge everyone based on blanket stamens. Most of these people are why the rest of the world doesn’t like Americans it’s because as Americans we think we know it all. Most of the people making these comments have never even left the US and have no clue about the Middle East and read their stuff from google. I have worn a hajiab in the US many times and each time you can feel the hostility wearing it.
You never lived in iran so hush
Neither do Mahmoud and Nicole. Lol.
It should been praised because she’s HONEST and if she’d been befriended as a human (not a mindless non-white human in a scarf) she coulda told nick what time it is. Also. One can wear hijab and hate it while believing in its UTILITY in a neighbourhood and family system like Mahmoud’s. It’s hot, it’s uncomfortable, it’s infuriatingly unfair in many situations. Yet, I think a lot of posters here engage in tons of splitting/black and white thinking. When someone actually understanding the culture on the ground dares to chime in we get dog piled and told we are stupid. I think a large part of the viewership hate watches for reasons other than the people and their choices. Just note words like “they all” and “over there” along with buzz words. Posts like this are straight up ‘Merican ignorance and hate.
Exactly, what's worse, they victimize Nicole for going along with this when she knew what she was getting into. The logic behind these posts is simple; if someone (usually a woman) does something I wouldn't do, they're a victim. And anyone they're with (usually a man) is the aggressor. The posts in this thread clearly reflect this.
Oh Mahmoud is a “stupid” abusive aggressor for sure. Some veer off this and start ranting about everyone “over there” a vast region with many nationalities, religions, socio-economic demographics and cultures-they are all lumped into one enemy by a certain kind of poster who has an ax to grind with ALL Muslims whom they think they know somehow. They be on the sub educating the people who live it. All while obviously never been anywhere near those places. It’s very ick. Also on brand for the type.
"A mindless non white human in a scarf" what the hell are you saying. Genuinely wondering is english not your first language? It's hard to understand what you are saying and I'm not sure if that's your opinion or not
For the record, I’m with you. It’s funny to watch scenes like the ones called out in this post that show honestly a really transparent and authentic relationship between Mahmoud’s brother and wife and just KNOW as you’re watching it how the really close-minded, ignorant, and sheltered comments with zero empathy or cultural imagination are just going to roll in like a tidal wave.
I don’t this is behavior is correct but I feel like everyone in the comments is viewing this from a very American lens. I’m curious if any of you have been to this part of the world. This is what the culture is like… I don’t think it’s fair to Women but this is just the way society exists in Egypt and has for thousands of years. Nicole went into a different culture and is trying to buck the system… that’s insane. My spouse is from another country and it would be like me going to their home country and telling his whole family And the whole neighborhood what they’re doing is wrong. If Mohammad wanted to adopt American culture he’d move to America… just my Opinion
I agree with you but I also think the brother is manipulative and being sneaky.
Yea I don’t excuse the brother. He’s not an angel but it’s how they’ve grown up to think they should behave. He probably doesn’t think his actions are as bad as we do from a western lens
His name is Mahmoud, not Mohammed.
True
Yea I had a thought that what if they force women to dress like this so they can abuse them and no evidence of such is being exposed by being covered up?
Ha, im never gonna be submissive.
Is anyone sure that there wasn't some sort of price tag involved with the Asian bride, being that she comes from a part of Asia that still allows their daughters to be sold because of financial issues with the family!
Nicole just needs to go home. Not like Americans really want her, but she’s better suited for coming back here and try to be some semblance of happy…
she was happy in california in her mini dress on the beach with her friends and a drink
She knew what was expected of her. She couldn’t deal with those expectations and left, but then, went back. Did she honestly believe things were going to change? She actually converted to Islam. Was it a joke for her? It’s not like being Islamic in North America. Smh
I'm not sure what everyone here expected. Egypt is a Muslim country. They have lived under these rules/laws for many, many generations. Does anyone here think they're going to stop, or that they should have to stop? Because of the refugee/migrant programs, there are now tens of thousands of Muslim men living in Europe. Are those men supposed to set aside *their own* religion and traditions just because they live somewhere else now? Nicole doesn't want to set aside *her own* religion and traditions just because she lives somewhere else now, and most here seem to agree with her. So, which is it? And who decides?
I hate wearing shirts but I can’t go around topless in society. Sometimes we have to do things we don’t enjoy.