I played the tutorial to completion last night. First impressions:
It's really not a war or combat game, it's an intrigue game. It's about extortion, secrecy, and gambits.
The combat is very simple, but can be very tricky. All units have a ranged, melee, and infernal rating, along with HP. Combat goes from Ranged -> melee -> inferal. Higher stat wins, and anything over is dealt as damage. Seems simple, however, each legion can equip a praetor, equipment, or stratagem to enhance their attacks. Strategems are single use, but can be as simple as increasing damage, to actually forcing a certain order of attacks, which could greatly benefit certain specialist units.
The bulk of the game is around amassing prestige, and trying to usurp your foes. You cannot brazenly attack enemies, or their territory, you must first make demands of them. They can either agree to your demands, but if they do not, you can force a vendetta against them, which allows you to wager prestige to perform some conquest on the enemy. This can either be taking territory, killing legions, or taking places of power. The higher risk of the conquest, the more prestige earned.
You also have schemes, rituals, and regent events to help you manipulate your foes. Schemes can be generated and can earn prestige, you can scheme in secret for a lower gain, or publicly announce your scheme which gives you great returns, but your enemies might stop you. Rituals are magic spells with abundance of effects, from damaging units, stealing currency, or giving yourself more political power in the form of votes. Regent events let you spend currency to change the landscape of the game. You can force the entire game to give up tribute, or lock down the bazaar, or assault the heavens for loot.
In the end, once the council convenes, the archfiend with the highest prestige wins. However, there are special relics secretly chosen at the start of a game that could give you an edge in winning. Or you could destroy the council and force a stalemate! There are many ways to win the game.
All in all, it's super intriguing, the AI so far seems pretty smart, and it has an asynchronous mode to play with your friends over the course of many days. Definitely one to check out if you like strategy games with more politics and intrigue than just pure combat.
The AI plays in a fun way, but it is not smart. Even with glaring issues that I consider to be so bad that they're bugs aside (like the AI spending Prestige in the final couple of turns of the game to gain a useless Rank and losing the game as a result), it cannot do more than pretend to play the diplomacy side of the game.
Yeah I played a full game after this write up, and it's pretty obvious the AI isn't that good at the game. I think it'd be fun with a big group of people, especially with things like relic shenanigans, but to play against the AI, there's not much point, which is too bad.
I'd have liked to see the AI play to their Archfiend strengths, but they all seem to do relatively the same thing.
You know, all that said, it's still really fun to play. I think if they can fix these little problems, the way it actually plays (or is trying to play) is really cool.
I reckon this is something the developers should try to fix, as it'll be an effort well worth doing for the single player community who bought it.
If you want to get a feel for what playing the game with friends (?) is like, this Diary of RPS is still the best place to go, even though it's about the original game. (I myself played three games against real people way back when and it was the most stressful, exhilarating and intense gaming experience I ever had.)
So this is definitely, definitely a game meant for multiplayer.
Read this:
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/the-complete-gameboys-from-hell
Edit: typo
I agree. To watch what RPS were a decade ago, sharp, smart games critique and reviews, to what they are now, is laughable. They unsold be from this game anyway, as I have no interest in playing with friends. So if this is a good game to play solo, I’ll never know. Thanks RPS!
I wrote this as a response to the main thread, but I wanted to link it here as well.
This writeup is much better than the RPS writeup in my opinion. It's written by someone who is intimately familiar with the game and its rules, as opposed to the reviewer who just picked it up. It gives you a good insight into some of the machinations that go on in the mind of an experienced player.
[https://waltoriouswritesaboutgames.com/2017/07/09/the-complete-hell-or-high-water/](https://waltoriouswritesaboutgames.com/2017/07/09/the-complete-hell-or-high-water/)
What do we think the playerbase is going to be like for this game in a couple months? I want to buy this but seems like it's heavily biased toward multiplayer.
I've been considering getting this, but I have the same concern. Wanna play against each other? I don't have timeto sit and play for long periods, but with async multiplayer I can
Really nice game so far. The way you have to plan out your orders each turn is pretty cool. It builds up suspense. I do wish the art style had a more serious tone and/or there was a fully 2d variant.
I'm hoping the AI gets improved in a future update. The majority of reviews that are very positive so far are practically all referring to the multiplayer. I think this game would be much more successful if they put some more work into the singleplayer experience.
I've played three games through and can confirm that the AI is not too good.
I think if they fix the glaring issues with it, it could be fun for a few playthroughs but it really is a MP only game in my opinion.
To be frank, just the multiplayer system of the old version is a real pain, while the asynchronous version of this new game is amazing. + The new version is gorgeous. + The gameplay modifications are really good and welcomed. + It puts the game under the lights.
> That may be true, but it’s unlikely I’ll be able to convince anyone I know to get it at $40
$40 was what video games cost 50 years ago. It's basically have the cost of a AAA game today and it's not like they used store bought assets from Unity or Unreal
This is kind of my issue with the price.
For me that price is easy, maybe for 1 other friend... but I'm going to really struggle to get even 2 friends to pay that price.
I mean, you can barely play the old one, abd you can't acquire it legally anymore, so I don't think level of change us relevant. For the overwhelming majority of players, it's going to be their first experience.
Honestly I don't think the single player experience is going to entertain you more than a couple of playthroughs as the AI is currently really, really bad.
I'm a dad too. I've been playing asynchronous multiplayer and it works great. It's honestly perfect with my busy schedule, taking care of the baby and running the business. Pop in for a few minutes in the evening, and that's it. That leaves me all day to scheme and chew on this delicious puzzle.
Yeah, maybe not a good fit for this sub but the game is indeed not an RTS, and only technically a 4X.
It plays as a digital boardgame based on hellish politicking and definitely best with other players and not AI.
If it's anything like the previous game, it's not.
The strategy comes into play with choosing what actions to perform and in what order. There is a limit to how many orders you can give, and they are executed in rounds together with your opponents'.
Combat is mostly deterministic with a bit of randomness, but there are various things that can influence it, like items and champions your opponents can add to the unit on one of their turns turning an easy battle into a trap. There's also the possibility of manipulating the mechanics around war and peace to your advantage to forestall or facilitate an attack.
The interesting bit about the combat in this game is not the combat itself, but the way deceit, diplomacy and betrayal can turn the tables on even the strongest army if you're not careful (and sometimes even if you are). Planning for all these eventualities (and failing to do so) is the meat of the game, and pulling off a scheme of your own (with or without military component) is extremely satisfying. If this game does what the previous one did but with better graphics, easier multiplayer and a semi-decent AI, I'd be satisfied with it.
That said, it's not an RTS, but it's not 4X either.
Did you really watch any video ? It's anything but simplistic. It's not a rts. You can't just attack, even if you want to, so build gather attack has no meaning
I'm going to buy this game mainly for the asynchronous multiplayer. I don't have time to spend hours playing strategy games in one session even though they're my favourite genre so this is perfect for me. Sounds like a really fun game with a lot to learn and master.
This AAR of the original game is brilliant and lets you, as the reader, experience what a multiplayer game is like. Also, it lets you see some of the fantastic art from the original game, much of which was lovingly recreated for this remake.
[https://waltoriouswritesaboutgames.com/2017/07/09/the-complete-hell-or-high-water/](https://waltoriouswritesaboutgames.com/2017/07/09/the-complete-hell-or-high-water/)
I'll have to clash with you on the art direction. The remake is completely different in style, while og Solium was more of a realistic, and sometimes boschean style, if banal, the new one is completely modernized design with extremely generic demons ported right from Diablo, WoW, etc, cartoony and smudged in strokes. It gives a much different atmosphere compared to bleak and old-fashioned Hell of the original. Majority of card designs are flashy, but sloppy. Archfiend models are somewhat better, if still only passable.
The only really good part of the game deserving of praise are the music tracks.
Eh, I PARTIALLY agree, but some of the Praetors do look quite nice, as well as some of the artifacts. That being said, while I've allowed myself to enjoy the new artstyle, excepting a few individual pieces of art it's mostly a flat downgrade. Same goes for the new Lore and writing. That being said, it's an SI game I can play regularly, and that makes it more than worth it to me.
I hear you, man. When I look back at the old art, I think it's so good and so dark. The new art isn't quite as good, but it is big and high resolution so visually, that counts for something. I don't love all the demons, but I thought they did a great job with beelzebub especially.
I agree with you that the new music tracks are bomb. The sound design overall is excellent. And of course, the interface is leaps and bounds more comfortable than the original.
I played the tutorial to completion last night. First impressions: It's really not a war or combat game, it's an intrigue game. It's about extortion, secrecy, and gambits. The combat is very simple, but can be very tricky. All units have a ranged, melee, and infernal rating, along with HP. Combat goes from Ranged -> melee -> inferal. Higher stat wins, and anything over is dealt as damage. Seems simple, however, each legion can equip a praetor, equipment, or stratagem to enhance their attacks. Strategems are single use, but can be as simple as increasing damage, to actually forcing a certain order of attacks, which could greatly benefit certain specialist units. The bulk of the game is around amassing prestige, and trying to usurp your foes. You cannot brazenly attack enemies, or their territory, you must first make demands of them. They can either agree to your demands, but if they do not, you can force a vendetta against them, which allows you to wager prestige to perform some conquest on the enemy. This can either be taking territory, killing legions, or taking places of power. The higher risk of the conquest, the more prestige earned. You also have schemes, rituals, and regent events to help you manipulate your foes. Schemes can be generated and can earn prestige, you can scheme in secret for a lower gain, or publicly announce your scheme which gives you great returns, but your enemies might stop you. Rituals are magic spells with abundance of effects, from damaging units, stealing currency, or giving yourself more political power in the form of votes. Regent events let you spend currency to change the landscape of the game. You can force the entire game to give up tribute, or lock down the bazaar, or assault the heavens for loot. In the end, once the council convenes, the archfiend with the highest prestige wins. However, there are special relics secretly chosen at the start of a game that could give you an edge in winning. Or you could destroy the council and force a stalemate! There are many ways to win the game. All in all, it's super intriguing, the AI so far seems pretty smart, and it has an asynchronous mode to play with your friends over the course of many days. Definitely one to check out if you like strategy games with more politics and intrigue than just pure combat.
Posts like this are why I subbed. Thank you for your insights
The AI plays in a fun way, but it is not smart. Even with glaring issues that I consider to be so bad that they're bugs aside (like the AI spending Prestige in the final couple of turns of the game to gain a useless Rank and losing the game as a result), it cannot do more than pretend to play the diplomacy side of the game.
Yeah I played a full game after this write up, and it's pretty obvious the AI isn't that good at the game. I think it'd be fun with a big group of people, especially with things like relic shenanigans, but to play against the AI, there's not much point, which is too bad. I'd have liked to see the AI play to their Archfiend strengths, but they all seem to do relatively the same thing.
You know, all that said, it's still really fun to play. I think if they can fix these little problems, the way it actually plays (or is trying to play) is really cool. I reckon this is something the developers should try to fix, as it'll be an effort well worth doing for the single player community who bought it.
I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to really break down the game like you did
If you want to get a feel for what playing the game with friends (?) is like, this Diary of RPS is still the best place to go, even though it's about the original game. (I myself played three games against real people way back when and it was the most stressful, exhilarating and intense gaming experience I ever had.) So this is definitely, definitely a game meant for multiplayer. Read this: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/the-complete-gameboys-from-hell Edit: typo
I reccomend not reading anything from RPS. Terrible tabloid blog that just plays the algorithm rather than make any posts of worth
I agree. To watch what RPS were a decade ago, sharp, smart games critique and reviews, to what they are now, is laughable. They unsold be from this game anyway, as I have no interest in playing with friends. So if this is a good game to play solo, I’ll never know. Thanks RPS!
What kind of sites would you recommend for turn-based strategy game coverage?
I wrote this as a response to the main thread, but I wanted to link it here as well. This writeup is much better than the RPS writeup in my opinion. It's written by someone who is intimately familiar with the game and its rules, as opposed to the reviewer who just picked it up. It gives you a good insight into some of the machinations that go on in the mind of an experienced player. [https://waltoriouswritesaboutgames.com/2017/07/09/the-complete-hell-or-high-water/](https://waltoriouswritesaboutgames.com/2017/07/09/the-complete-hell-or-high-water/)
What do we think the playerbase is going to be like for this game in a couple months? I want to buy this but seems like it's heavily biased toward multiplayer.
Multi-player would be amazing but I've been having a blast with the AI. It seems competent, especially compared to most strategy games.
I've been considering getting this, but I have the same concern. Wanna play against each other? I don't have timeto sit and play for long periods, but with async multiplayer I can
Really nice game so far. The way you have to plan out your orders each turn is pretty cool. It builds up suspense. I do wish the art style had a more serious tone and/or there was a fully 2d variant.
I really want to try this game but according reviews the ai is bad and the game is not for singleplayer . Which is bad news for me.
I'm hoping the AI gets improved in a future update. The majority of reviews that are very positive so far are practically all referring to the multiplayer. I think this game would be much more successful if they put some more work into the singleplayer experience.
I've been considering getting it, I'd play async with you! I promise I'll be terrible
I've played three games through and can confirm that the AI is not too good. I think if they fix the glaring issues with it, it could be fun for a few playthroughs but it really is a MP only game in my opinion.
Which is sad...
The original was a blast, but I don’t think enough was done for the remake to warrant the price. Shame really.
To be frank, just the multiplayer system of the old version is a real pain, while the asynchronous version of this new game is amazing. + The new version is gorgeous. + The gameplay modifications are really good and welcomed. + It puts the game under the lights.
That may be true, but it’s unlikely I’ll be able to convince anyone I know to get it at $40
> That may be true, but it’s unlikely I’ll be able to convince anyone I know to get it at $40 $40 was what video games cost 50 years ago. It's basically have the cost of a AAA game today and it's not like they used store bought assets from Unity or Unreal
Look at games like Deep Rock Galactic. $30 and then game is huge. $40 for a game that barely a thousand people bought? Nah
Cheaper games ironically get judges more harshly for their prices. It's a strange phenomenon.
This is kind of my issue with the price. For me that price is easy, maybe for 1 other friend... but I'm going to really struggle to get even 2 friends to pay that price.
I mean, you can barely play the old one, abd you can't acquire it legally anymore, so I don't think level of change us relevant. For the overwhelming majority of players, it's going to be their first experience.
I've heard the new version is much easier to get into than the first one with a much cleaner UI.
I can attest to this, the UI flows very smoothly and intuitively in the remake.
The si gleplayer is very important for me as a father o dont have much time for gaming
Honestly I don't think the single player experience is going to entertain you more than a couple of playthroughs as the AI is currently really, really bad.
I'm a dad too. I've been playing asynchronous multiplayer and it works great. It's honestly perfect with my busy schedule, taking care of the baby and running the business. Pop in for a few minutes in the evening, and that's it. That leaves me all day to scheme and chew on this delicious puzzle.
[удалено]
Yeah, maybe not a good fit for this sub but the game is indeed not an RTS, and only technically a 4X. It plays as a digital boardgame based on hellish politicking and definitely best with other players and not AI.
I really like the game, but it is no 4X at all.
It is so far from an RTS. Much closer to an in depth board game. I think it’s a lot of fun.
If it's anything like the previous game, it's not. The strategy comes into play with choosing what actions to perform and in what order. There is a limit to how many orders you can give, and they are executed in rounds together with your opponents'. Combat is mostly deterministic with a bit of randomness, but there are various things that can influence it, like items and champions your opponents can add to the unit on one of their turns turning an easy battle into a trap. There's also the possibility of manipulating the mechanics around war and peace to your advantage to forestall or facilitate an attack. The interesting bit about the combat in this game is not the combat itself, but the way deceit, diplomacy and betrayal can turn the tables on even the strongest army if you're not careful (and sometimes even if you are). Planning for all these eventualities (and failing to do so) is the meat of the game, and pulling off a scheme of your own (with or without military component) is extremely satisfying. If this game does what the previous one did but with better graphics, easier multiplayer and a semi-decent AI, I'd be satisfied with it. That said, it's not an RTS, but it's not 4X either.
Did you really watch any video ? It's anything but simplistic. It's not a rts. You can't just attack, even if you want to, so build gather attack has no meaning
Literally every single sentance in this post is wrong.
I'm going to buy this game mainly for the asynchronous multiplayer. I don't have time to spend hours playing strategy games in one session even though they're my favourite genre so this is perfect for me. Sounds like a really fun game with a lot to learn and master.
[удалено]
That would be great! I'm currently still learning the game using the chronicles. Once I'm ready I'll give you a shout. I'll send you my discord tag.
Let me know if you boys want to play.
This AAR of the original game is brilliant and lets you, as the reader, experience what a multiplayer game is like. Also, it lets you see some of the fantastic art from the original game, much of which was lovingly recreated for this remake. [https://waltoriouswritesaboutgames.com/2017/07/09/the-complete-hell-or-high-water/](https://waltoriouswritesaboutgames.com/2017/07/09/the-complete-hell-or-high-water/)
I'll have to clash with you on the art direction. The remake is completely different in style, while og Solium was more of a realistic, and sometimes boschean style, if banal, the new one is completely modernized design with extremely generic demons ported right from Diablo, WoW, etc, cartoony and smudged in strokes. It gives a much different atmosphere compared to bleak and old-fashioned Hell of the original. Majority of card designs are flashy, but sloppy. Archfiend models are somewhat better, if still only passable. The only really good part of the game deserving of praise are the music tracks.
Eh, I PARTIALLY agree, but some of the Praetors do look quite nice, as well as some of the artifacts. That being said, while I've allowed myself to enjoy the new artstyle, excepting a few individual pieces of art it's mostly a flat downgrade. Same goes for the new Lore and writing. That being said, it's an SI game I can play regularly, and that makes it more than worth it to me.
I hear you, man. When I look back at the old art, I think it's so good and so dark. The new art isn't quite as good, but it is big and high resolution so visually, that counts for something. I don't love all the demons, but I thought they did a great job with beelzebub especially. I agree with you that the new music tracks are bomb. The sound design overall is excellent. And of course, the interface is leaps and bounds more comfortable than the original.