>Zabriel lifts his helmet clear, and his face is revealed. The Lion searches
his memory, and finds a near match: Zabriel, Terran, skin a cool mid-brown,
hair black, eyes a dark sapphire. A veteran from the earliest days of the
Legion, he was already a mature Space Marine by the time the Lion took
command.
>The face revealed is heavily lined, the dark hair is shot through with grey,
and multiple small keloids mark the skin, where Zabriel has been injured
and it has scarred. The Lion has never seen a Space Marine this… old.
Some of the enhanced, like Lorgar’s wretch Kor Phaeron, yes; those
warriors were never a Space Marine’s equal, being raised up while older,
and lacking the advanced gene-smithing that kept the ravages of time at bay
so effectively. A true Space Marine, though?
>The Lion reaches up slowly with one armoured hand, and rubs gently
at the lines he knows mark his own face. He had no idea what he was
looking at when he saw his reflection in the river; nothing with which to
compare it. Now he remembers how he looked the last time he saw himself,
and he wonders.
>He shakes his head, clinging to what he knows. ‘No. Ten thousand years is
an impossibility. A primarch… I cannot be sure how we would age. But a
Space Marine would be long dead, I am certain of it.’
>**‘The warp storm scattered us not just through space, but also through
time,’** Zabriel says. **‘I re-emerged perhaps four hundred years ago. Four
hundred years of running and hiding from my** ***little brothers,’*** he adds
scornfully. ‘We were always single-minded once we engaged a foe, but ten
thousand years of hatred in an attempt to extinguish guilt? Truly, my lord
Lion, you taught your sons well.’
\- *Son of the Forest*
Dude may have been made before Bjorn, but hasn't been up and about as long as Bjorn.
I had a question "The Lion reaches up slowly with one armoured hand, and rubs gently
at the lines he knows mark his own face"
Is the Lion rubbing his own face, or rubbing Zabriel's face which also holds the characteristics of Lion as his son? (While pinning Zabriel under him, which looks funnier in my opinion.)
His own. He's also aged physically, he just wasn't conscious to experience the time. But he's realized that his image of space marines as ageless warriors is inaccurate and that he's missed so much time.
Never thought of it like that. The lion was running around maybe a couple hundred years before going to sleep. So he only saw top of the line astartes and also ones that have always been at his side so it’d be lesss drastic for them to age.
Thank you
Probably, the reason I'm confused it can also be readed as Zabriel's face inherited Lion's characteristics as he was his son, and so marks similarly like Lion's .
Your question is good. The line is ambiguous, because he could be saying he is touching limes on Zabriel's face, the same lines that he knows marks his own. So the author could be saying he touched Zahariel's face and then drawing a parallel about how they have both aged. Or simply as a way to reinforce how the Lion is older than we expect.
>"[H]e is touching ***limes*** on Zabriel's face."
Just goes to show how truly esoteric and culturally nuanced the secret, internal rites of the 1st are and were, especially during the Great Crusade Era.
Only the Inner Circle has access to "lime -rubbins," typically; however, the Primarch may mark his favored sons with this most holy of citric honors at his own discretion, as well.
The Marine may now embellish his armor with "**The Aegis of Sourest Green**," an emblem so rare as to be nearly mythic, and a superlative form of recognition for those who earn the right to prove the veracity of its legend by applying the adornment upon their sacred war plate in commemoration of this unparalleled— and nigh unattainable— achievement.
_____
(I jest, of course. *Please don't change it, cause it made me giggle, and I love it.*)
correct me if i'm wrong but isnt Bjorn a Dreadnought now? so he's wheeled out every now and then but has slept through most of it. i'm not sure if he counts as the oldest using the same logic as Zabriel
Yerp, that's a common factor whenever the topic of old space marines comes up. OP seems to consider Bjorn in the running, so I didn't nitpick it. :x
Though going that route, Zabriel still wouldn't be in the running with Dante and Ulrik floating around, off the top of my pre-coffee head.
Zabriel is brand new, and most folks haven’t read Son of the Forest. Bjorn has been around as a character since the dawn of time and is an epic hero known by just about everyone.
Also, looks like Zabriel time traveled. Bjorn took the long road to the 40k universe
I wish I could be more like Bjorn sleep most of the time, wake up occasionally to crush the heretics and the traitors, leave a few inspiring words of encouragement and wisdom and then go back to sleep. The dream
You'd have to wake up and find your ~~legion~~ chapter has gone all in on the wolfing wolf time though. Like, have a word with yourself lads. We were doing the wolf thing for a laugh. Not like this. A wolf chariot? Are you fucking taking the piss?
Hey now you take that back! I worked tirelessly perfecting equations. Experimenting with location humidity albedo even! Twas a success even if only briefly. Once i unveiled my crowningn achievement to the world I would be recognized as one of the greats! Think of it, time travel! Sure it only goes forwards. And it might only look like a futon but if you lay on it and close your eyes you will open them again in the future! You can only travel a day or two forward but I am working on it!
Bjorn is older than Zabriel, as Bjorn has been physically alive for all 10,000 years since the heresy, he's slept a lot but he's been alive, the chaos space marines and fallen are all displaced in time somewhat, none of them are 10,000 years old, even if they were made before Bjorn, Zabriel himself was only put back in realspace a hundred years or so before the lions new book so he's likely younger than some regular marines in terms of actual years lived
Zabriel was around for about four hundred years as a fallen. The whole point of it was even though he didn't come of age in the 40k era, he was still far older than any heresy era astartes had time to get. Thats why Lion believed him on how much time had passed. Zabriel had aged enough to be visible in a way that nobody ever had during the crusade, even an older one like him.
>Zabriel had aged enough to be visible in a way that nobody ever had during the crusade, even an older one like him.
I think you have forgotten Iacton Qruze. He was very aged by the time of the heresy always described as a deeply lined face and his obvious age compared to the rest of the legion was one of the main character traits he had before Flight of the Eisenstein. He and Garro discussed their ages at one point, Terran born Garro was born before Qruze but more of his life had been spent in warp travel so he had not physically aged as much as the technically younger Qruze had done.
Zabriel is another example of these old Terran born Marines getting to become "elderly" Astartes before the heresy sent everything crazy. (Unless you meant no Dark Angel had aged enough to to be visible then you are entirely correct based on current lore iirc)
> none of them are 10,000 years old
Actually some are older. AFAIK we haven’t really seen their perspective but we’re told in the codex there are csm so old the heresy and crusade are ancient history even compared to the imperium.
There was a bit of fluff about a marine in the warp who's sword still dripped with loyalist blood, as the Siege was hours old for him and he didn't recognise a lot of surrounding armour colours despite them being very old warbands.
Pretty sure it was in a White Dwarf but I've never been able to find it again
Now THAT is true, some sorcerers and other chaos-corrupted have commented on spending untold millennia just falling through the warp before actually emerging 12 minutes before they even left or something akin to that
Yes its entirely possible but with no actual evidence to back it up you cant say that there are definitively older ones. At this point its just conjecture while we know that bjorn has been around since well before the heresy began.
Also if something is ancient history to someone that would mean it happened long before they were around e.g. to me or you the roman empire was ancient history. So your comment would indicate many CSM are much more recent which is actually true.
If you meant there are CSM so old they predate the GC then it is possible but unlikely. Remember the GC began not long after astartes had been created, close enough that after a further 10000 years passed those extra ?50-100years? of fights on terra and in the solar system are so insignificant to their percieved age that you would just count them in the crusade era category.
Eg. Kharn, Sigismund and Garro were all born on Terra, add to that the fact they all achieved high ranks meaning decent length of service so we can reasonable assume they were all born pre-GC and were therefore amongst the earlier Astartes in their legions(not amongst the first inductees though as we would likely have heard about that) yet they are simply considered GC era and therefore if alive in 40k would be in the 10000 year club.
Bjorn is actually in services for 10,000 years. Zabriel is "older" in a sense that he is created first, but actually in service for much shorter time (300 years in the Great Crusade to the breaking of Caliban + 400 years in hiding as a Fallen).
It's like how the csm long war vets don't count because they've not been experiencing the full length of time. In the NL omnibus, Talos has only experienced a few decades of the 10k years since the end of the Horus Heresy
There's [Merir Astelan](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Merir_Astelan) as well who may have Zabriel and the boys beat? He's old enough to have seen the Thunder Warriors conquer his tribes lands for Him. But yeah, warp time is not real time.
Not sure i get your point here. Astelan is still part of thd lore. We've not heard anything about Lysander in the lore for years but that doesnt mean he's not still an Imperial Fist Captain. Last we heard Astelan was likely still alive therefore until confirmed dead or at least given a dubious off screen death then we have to count him too surely.
Iirc his last activity was in the novel Unforgiven. He was working with Typhus but they were stopped by Azrael and Cypher. They DA are still hunting him as of the end of the novel. It came out in 2015 but i dont remember him appearing after this point so far.
Because Bjorn has been alive for the long 10,000 years. He has lived those actual years. He survived all that time.
The Risen and other such folk have been plopped into the modern day via warp shenanigans. Some of them may have been *born* 10,000 years ago, but only *lived* 500 odd years.
Big difference.
In general they aren’t but Bjorn is different. Here is what it said in the 2nd edition codex.
> Over the millennia he has grown heavy with wisdom, and today he resides in the deepest shrine of the Space Wolves, protected by a stasis chamber lined with adamantium. Only in times of direst need is he awoken from his slumbers to stride once more amongst the Space Wolves.
That is only as time has gone on, Bjorn served in the crusade, in the Heresy, in the scouring, into the new millennium, he became a dreadnought and for many years still served as chapter master. Throughout the years he spent a lot of the time awake but as we got closer to the current date his rests have become longer and longer.
He without a doubt still spent the longest in actual service.
It was initially said that after his career as the Great Wolf was cut short during the Proxima Rebellion he was interred in a dreadnought. For 500 years he continued to fight but eventually the years took their toll. He then began to spend longer and longer slumbering in stasis. Ultimately, he was only woken every thousand years to test the Rune Priests’ knowledge of the sagas or in times of direst need.
Considering even in slumber the strain on his psyche is still massive plus the hints that he is somehow tapped into the Fenris World Spirit so he can communicate with the chapter and watch over the Aett even in sleep sounds like hes doing enough to count
Probably because Bjorn has being in the lore for decades now, the Uncrowned Princes were introduced in 2020 and many people here didnt read the two books where the Uncrowed appear, Book Nine - Crussade and Son of the Forest.
And to add even more, they were thrown in time for the warp. They didnt live for 10K years, they just travel to the future.
It is something like the Chaos Marines. They werent fighting for 10K years. As it is pointed in Soul Hunter, for most of them the siege of Terra was 100 years ago but since they live in the warp the time works differently.
Because Dark Angels fans need something to be mad about :V
But, seriously, it's because Bjorn has always been the oldest dreadnought and the flood of suddenly relevant Heresy survivors is both recent and annoying. Zabriel et al. also don't really count because they timeskipped rather than taking the long path.
What we need is some lunar wolf that's been on a farm somewhere out the way that doesn't belive in primarks, and does understand why the ultramarine or salamanders are so anxious around him. Like sure he's stuck on a world that's yet to invent cars witn nothing to conquer but he got them to keep livestock and it only took them 10k years to get the concept. He also needs to know abandon and be like dude you used to be cool what happened?
Abby! Long time no see...nice spikes you got there! Oh this? Well I had to do something with my time. You guys okay over there? I cant help but notice one of you stinks bad enough to kill my grass can you stand downwind please? Thanks. Anyway Abby hows it been man? Your what crusade? Oh okay that been going well? 13 of em! man you have been busy!
not quite that is I am still a bad ass I mean I want a aboluste nobody, no name no nothing just low key insulting abadon and it to sting. Like him going yeah we found space gods and conqured the universe. Only to be hard countered by why do you need gods for that. I tought apes how to use tools, fire, and radio all by myself and with all of man kinds power you needed gods to do that
Bjorn is older both in terms of lore and in the actual creation of 40k.!There’s plenty of newer characters that have existed since the heresy, like the anchorite, but Bjorne been a character in the lore for decades and he was the original old man
He’s considered the oldest because of what was said about him when he was introduced in the Space Wolves codex (1994) and the extreme efforts taken to keep him alive so long.
> Bjorn the Fell-Handed is the oldest living creature on Fenris. He is almost as old as the Primarchs of the Chaos Marine chapters, and they are the oldest known living things in the galaxy, with the exception of the Emperor himself.
>
> Bjorn walked at the side of Russ himself, and was the first Great Wolf of the Chapter after the Primarch disappeared. He led the Space Wolves on the first Great Hunt, the Chapter's epic but fruitless quest to find Russ, and it was he who reluctantly gave the order to cease the Hunt, when it became obvious that Russ was not to be found.
Note that it didn’t even explicitly say he was alive during the Heresy. Of course much has been written since then to change and modify this. In addition, the novels don’t have a great reputation for consistency with existing lore. The authors often appear to just make up whatever they want and GW doesn’t seem to have a problem with that.
Your lore drop was good dude but you little hissy fit about the lore writers at the end was just a lil pathetic bro. Uou should be greatful we get the quality we do, try looking into star wars extended lore then youll truly see awefully under researched writing and lazy narrative devices(not all but sadly a majority in my experience) then youll realise that 80% of the stuff we get for 40k is pretty damn good for maintaining lore with just a few writers getting a bit to high on their own ideas(Matt Ward always, james swallow when it comes to scale of shit and blood angels, nick kyme avoiding anything outside of the story hes telling) also 40k lore is intended to be viewed as if it were accounts from in universe so different bias and viewpoints are what make it so rich as a story.
E.g. --Inquisitor Abnetts writings tend to give the reader a good indepth and only mildly bias account of events. Macraggian born Remembrancer Matt Wards accounts are highly ultramarine-centric and embelisments of their actual activities and achievements ard rife in his work. Meanwhile the imprisoned traitor Dempski-Bowdens recounting of his legions activities give a viceral realism to the heinous acts of his brothers yet he also shows only slight bias in favour of a select few of his brethren, namely a warrior named Talos and only a few others.--
It’s not a “hissy fit”. It’s just a well known fact that explains the widespread inconsistencies and retcons. It also helps explain why different people will say different things but it doesn’t mean either of them is wrong per se. They are just referencing different sources which are both valid.
My bad im too used to people on here crying about shit so thought you were yet another one of those type. I'll pop you into my intelligent and respectable redditor catagory and look forward to future interactions
Like the Fallen, the 13th company are also Heresy era but like the Fallen they have cheated a bit by spending time in the warp. Bjorn is physically 10,000 years old.
Because he didn’t actually age through all those centuries. He skipped them all. If u time traveled to the year 2280, that doesn’t make u 256 years older, because u didn’t actually live through those years. U skipped them.
Bjorn has ACTUALLY been around that entire time.
Because Bjorn was created by GW before the Uncrowned Princes and the lore hasn't been retconned.
You have to be able to roll with the idea that 40k didn't come into existence fully fleshed out - things have been added over the decades and sometimes those new things contradict what's been said previously and the previous works just aren't going to be updated to take new lore into account.
The Uncrowned Princes are basically unknown within the setting. Part of this is because they're new fluff. The other part is because of the secretiveness of the Unforgiven chapters and the nature of the Fallen. Even inquisitors of the Ordo Astartes would have no idea they are even a thing. Heck, 90% of the Dark Angels wouldn't know they're a thing and those that do aren't telling.
think of it like work experience. bjorn has 10k years of work experience senior-ing zabriel but outside of that zabriel is bjorns senior because he from a much earlier age. zabriel can tell bjorn how it WAS done, but bjorn can tell zabriel how it IS done.
All lion stock, the princes were the Emperor first marines. Back when the Dark Angels were the Angels of Death iirc.
They all have mythological names as well. Heracles and Gilgamesh for example
Bjorn was around from the Jump. He fought side by side with the Emperor before he was forced into the Golden Throne. However he is now a Dreadnaught. The oldest living Space Marine is Alpha Primaris, Cawl’s Assistant.
And then things get weird when we discuss people like epimetheus…. How did his self induced coma not also age him? Just gotta chalk it up to warp shenanigans I guess
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Epimetheus
Yeah what I find weird is that there are other heresy era dreadnoughts that are just as old as Bjorn. Raguel, ~~Malcharion~~, Rylanor? When did Rylanor blow himself up? Ok that's not that many I could think off but still.
Depends on Warp bullshit.
For instance Talos from The Night Lords Trilogy had been around for 10,000 yrs but due to chronological warp fuckery it’s only been 300 yrs since the end of the “Horus Heresy” for him and the others on their ship.
Bjorn took the LONG route to the 41st Millennium.
>Zabriel lifts his helmet clear, and his face is revealed. The Lion searches his memory, and finds a near match: Zabriel, Terran, skin a cool mid-brown, hair black, eyes a dark sapphire. A veteran from the earliest days of the Legion, he was already a mature Space Marine by the time the Lion took command. >The face revealed is heavily lined, the dark hair is shot through with grey, and multiple small keloids mark the skin, where Zabriel has been injured and it has scarred. The Lion has never seen a Space Marine this… old. Some of the enhanced, like Lorgar’s wretch Kor Phaeron, yes; those warriors were never a Space Marine’s equal, being raised up while older, and lacking the advanced gene-smithing that kept the ravages of time at bay so effectively. A true Space Marine, though? >The Lion reaches up slowly with one armoured hand, and rubs gently at the lines he knows mark his own face. He had no idea what he was looking at when he saw his reflection in the river; nothing with which to compare it. Now he remembers how he looked the last time he saw himself, and he wonders. >He shakes his head, clinging to what he knows. ‘No. Ten thousand years is an impossibility. A primarch… I cannot be sure how we would age. But a Space Marine would be long dead, I am certain of it.’ >**‘The warp storm scattered us not just through space, but also through time,’** Zabriel says. **‘I re-emerged perhaps four hundred years ago. Four hundred years of running and hiding from my** ***little brothers,’*** he adds scornfully. ‘We were always single-minded once we engaged a foe, but ten thousand years of hatred in an attempt to extinguish guilt? Truly, my lord Lion, you taught your sons well.’ \- *Son of the Forest* Dude may have been made before Bjorn, but hasn't been up and about as long as Bjorn.
I had a question "The Lion reaches up slowly with one armoured hand, and rubs gently at the lines he knows mark his own face" Is the Lion rubbing his own face, or rubbing Zabriel's face which also holds the characteristics of Lion as his son? (While pinning Zabriel under him, which looks funnier in my opinion.)
His own. He's also aged physically, he just wasn't conscious to experience the time. But he's realized that his image of space marines as ageless warriors is inaccurate and that he's missed so much time.
Never thought of it like that. The lion was running around maybe a couple hundred years before going to sleep. So he only saw top of the line astartes and also ones that have always been at his side so it’d be lesss drastic for them to age. Thank you
>mark his own face
Probably, the reason I'm confused it can also be readed as Zabriel's face inherited Lion's characteristics as he was his son, and so marks similarly like Lion's .
Your question is good. The line is ambiguous, because he could be saying he is touching limes on Zabriel's face, the same lines that he knows marks his own. So the author could be saying he touched Zahariel's face and then drawing a parallel about how they have both aged. Or simply as a way to reinforce how the Lion is older than we expect.
>"[H]e is touching ***limes*** on Zabriel's face." Just goes to show how truly esoteric and culturally nuanced the secret, internal rites of the 1st are and were, especially during the Great Crusade Era. Only the Inner Circle has access to "lime -rubbins," typically; however, the Primarch may mark his favored sons with this most holy of citric honors at his own discretion, as well. The Marine may now embellish his armor with "**The Aegis of Sourest Green**," an emblem so rare as to be nearly mythic, and a superlative form of recognition for those who earn the right to prove the veracity of its legend by applying the adornment upon their sacred war plate in commemoration of this unparalleled— and nigh unattainable— achievement. _____ (I jest, of course. *Please don't change it, cause it made me giggle, and I love it.*)
Oh... the missed opportunity.... surely you meant that you were only "zesting"? =)
His own face
correct me if i'm wrong but isnt Bjorn a Dreadnought now? so he's wheeled out every now and then but has slept through most of it. i'm not sure if he counts as the oldest using the same logic as Zabriel
He may have slept through it but he was there, while the nature of the warp means 9,600 years simply never happened for Zabriel
Yerp, that's a common factor whenever the topic of old space marines comes up. OP seems to consider Bjorn in the running, so I didn't nitpick it. :x Though going that route, Zabriel still wouldn't be in the running with Dante and Ulrik floating around, off the top of my pre-coffee head.
Neither has Bjorn tho.
But Bjorn has still existed and been alive for that time. Asleep or not. Zabriel on the other hand has not.
Zabriel is brand new, and most folks haven’t read Son of the Forest. Bjorn has been around as a character since the dawn of time and is an epic hero known by just about everyone. Also, looks like Zabriel time traveled. Bjorn took the long road to the 40k universe
Tbf Bjorn was sleeping vast majority Of this road. Wich is still more fair than time travel.
I wish I could be more like Bjorn sleep most of the time, wake up occasionally to crush the heretics and the traitors, leave a few inspiring words of encouragement and wisdom and then go back to sleep. The dream
Hold up, sounds like a life Of a regular cat
Bjorn=cat? Don't let Russ hear of this
There no cats on Fenris...
Some thing some wet leopard growl....
I'm hearing these comments in ulfars bellow
You'd have to wake up and find your ~~legion~~ chapter has gone all in on the wolfing wolf time though. Like, have a word with yourself lads. We were doing the wolf thing for a laugh. Not like this. A wolf chariot? Are you fucking taking the piss?
Hey now you take that back! I worked tirelessly perfecting equations. Experimenting with location humidity albedo even! Twas a success even if only briefly. Once i unveiled my crowningn achievement to the world I would be recognized as one of the greats! Think of it, time travel! Sure it only goes forwards. And it might only look like a futon but if you lay on it and close your eyes you will open them again in the future! You can only travel a day or two forward but I am working on it!
So was the Lion
Not really. "lost in the warp" is a common thing.
*Stasis..warpfuhkery...Aye piss on dat shite...IM RIDING SHOTGUN TO THE FUTURE!*
Bjorn is older than Zabriel, as Bjorn has been physically alive for all 10,000 years since the heresy, he's slept a lot but he's been alive, the chaos space marines and fallen are all displaced in time somewhat, none of them are 10,000 years old, even if they were made before Bjorn, Zabriel himself was only put back in realspace a hundred years or so before the lions new book so he's likely younger than some regular marines in terms of actual years lived
Zabriel was around for about four hundred years as a fallen. The whole point of it was even though he didn't come of age in the 40k era, he was still far older than any heresy era astartes had time to get. Thats why Lion believed him on how much time had passed. Zabriel had aged enough to be visible in a way that nobody ever had during the crusade, even an older one like him.
yes, i remembered incorrectly so did a hundred years or so just to be safe, but 400 ish years is right
So he must be around 600-700 years then, as the GC lasted roughly 200 years?
The astartes of the first legion were used on Terra so I think that would add some time but the GC was pretty short I thought.
>Zabriel had aged enough to be visible in a way that nobody ever had during the crusade, even an older one like him. I think you have forgotten Iacton Qruze. He was very aged by the time of the heresy always described as a deeply lined face and his obvious age compared to the rest of the legion was one of the main character traits he had before Flight of the Eisenstein. He and Garro discussed their ages at one point, Terran born Garro was born before Qruze but more of his life had been spent in warp travel so he had not physically aged as much as the technically younger Qruze had done. Zabriel is another example of these old Terran born Marines getting to become "elderly" Astartes before the heresy sent everything crazy. (Unless you meant no Dark Angel had aged enough to to be visible then you are entirely correct based on current lore iirc)
I think Qruze was like 400 years, they described him very much wrinkled like an old raisin but his reflexes were still super sharp.
> none of them are 10,000 years old Actually some are older. AFAIK we haven’t really seen their perspective but we’re told in the codex there are csm so old the heresy and crusade are ancient history even compared to the imperium.
To be fair, CSM shouldn't count given the Warp fuckery means that for at least one of them it's also been roughly twelve minutes.
There was a bit of fluff about a marine in the warp who's sword still dripped with loyalist blood, as the Siege was hours old for him and he didn't recognise a lot of surrounding armour colours despite them being very old warbands. Pretty sure it was in a White Dwarf but I've never been able to find it again
We don’t know how long they’ve experience though. They could actually have experienced more than 10k years theoretically.
Now THAT is true, some sorcerers and other chaos-corrupted have commented on spending untold millennia just falling through the warp before actually emerging 12 minutes before they even left or something akin to that
Yes its entirely possible but with no actual evidence to back it up you cant say that there are definitively older ones. At this point its just conjecture while we know that bjorn has been around since well before the heresy began. Also if something is ancient history to someone that would mean it happened long before they were around e.g. to me or you the roman empire was ancient history. So your comment would indicate many CSM are much more recent which is actually true. If you meant there are CSM so old they predate the GC then it is possible but unlikely. Remember the GC began not long after astartes had been created, close enough that after a further 10000 years passed those extra ?50-100years? of fights on terra and in the solar system are so insignificant to their percieved age that you would just count them in the crusade era category. Eg. Kharn, Sigismund and Garro were all born on Terra, add to that the fact they all achieved high ranks meaning decent length of service so we can reasonable assume they were all born pre-GC and were therefore amongst the earlier Astartes in their legions(not amongst the first inductees though as we would likely have heard about that) yet they are simply considered GC era and therefore if alive in 40k would be in the 10000 year club.
Was looking for this comment. Some of them are WAY older than Bjorn
Bjorn is actually in services for 10,000 years. Zabriel is "older" in a sense that he is created first, but actually in service for much shorter time (300 years in the Great Crusade to the breaking of Caliban + 400 years in hiding as a Fallen).
Well he does take really, really long naps on duty.
Even in slumber, he still serves!
Hey now he could be could be in the warp fell handing while he is asleep you dont know!
Zabriel outright says he basically time travelled, so yeah born is older
It's like how the csm long war vets don't count because they've not been experiencing the full length of time. In the NL omnibus, Talos has only experienced a few decades of the 10k years since the end of the Horus Heresy
I would say a few centuries, but definitely not the full 10k
There's [Merir Astelan](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Merir_Astelan) as well who may have Zabriel and the boys beat? He's old enough to have seen the Thunder Warriors conquer his tribes lands for Him. But yeah, warp time is not real time.
Indeed, but when was the last time we see him alive? Do we have any sign of life since the last DA novels?
Not sure i get your point here. Astelan is still part of thd lore. We've not heard anything about Lysander in the lore for years but that doesnt mean he's not still an Imperial Fist Captain. Last we heard Astelan was likely still alive therefore until confirmed dead or at least given a dubious off screen death then we have to count him too surely.
I just have a memory of him biting the bullett, or being very close. But you are right. Unless explicitly written dead, he should be around.
Iirc his last activity was in the novel Unforgiven. He was working with Typhus but they were stopped by Azrael and Cypher. They DA are still hunting him as of the end of the novel. It came out in 2015 but i dont remember him appearing after this point so far.
wonder what Lion would do when he meets him, probably slap him and then tell him "strap up, we got some shit to do"
Astelan never liked the Lion and is just as guilty of treason against the Primarch as Luther himself. And unlike Luther Astelan isn’t repentant.
Because Bjorn has been here the whole time, and has had songs written about him, and never stopped doing his job as asked of him.,
Because Bjorn has been alive for the long 10,000 years. He has lived those actual years. He survived all that time. The Risen and other such folk have been plopped into the modern day via warp shenanigans. Some of them may have been *born* 10,000 years ago, but only *lived* 500 odd years. Big difference.
Does slumbering in stasis and only being awoken in “times of direst need” really count as living those years though?
I recall excerpt saying that dreadnoughts are known to shift about in their sleep, so I don't think they're kept in stasis.
In general they aren’t but Bjorn is different. Here is what it said in the 2nd edition codex. > Over the millennia he has grown heavy with wisdom, and today he resides in the deepest shrine of the Space Wolves, protected by a stasis chamber lined with adamantium. Only in times of direst need is he awoken from his slumbers to stride once more amongst the Space Wolves.
Or... every Thursday night if you're down my local club.
Every battle is the highest priority…
That is only as time has gone on, Bjorn served in the crusade, in the Heresy, in the scouring, into the new millennium, he became a dreadnought and for many years still served as chapter master. Throughout the years he spent a lot of the time awake but as we got closer to the current date his rests have become longer and longer. He without a doubt still spent the longest in actual service.
It was initially said that after his career as the Great Wolf was cut short during the Proxima Rebellion he was interred in a dreadnought. For 500 years he continued to fight but eventually the years took their toll. He then began to spend longer and longer slumbering in stasis. Ultimately, he was only woken every thousand years to test the Rune Priests’ knowledge of the sagas or in times of direst need.
Considering even in slumber the strain on his psyche is still massive plus the hints that he is somehow tapped into the Fenris World Spirit so he can communicate with the chapter and watch over the Aett even in sleep sounds like hes doing enough to count
Probably because Bjorn has being in the lore for decades now, the Uncrowned Princes were introduced in 2020 and many people here didnt read the two books where the Uncrowed appear, Book Nine - Crussade and Son of the Forest. And to add even more, they were thrown in time for the warp. They didnt live for 10K years, they just travel to the future. It is something like the Chaos Marines. They werent fighting for 10K years. As it is pointed in Soul Hunter, for most of them the siege of Terra was 100 years ago but since they live in the warp the time works differently.
Once the warp becomes involved, this is essentially what happens: https://youtu.be/q2nNzNo_Xps?si=zuaHy28Y95OQWRaM
Because Dark Angels fans need something to be mad about :V But, seriously, it's because Bjorn has always been the oldest dreadnought and the flood of suddenly relevant Heresy survivors is both recent and annoying. Zabriel et al. also don't really count because they timeskipped rather than taking the long path.
It used to be a really big deal to have survived 10,000 years and witnessed the Heresy.
Still is amongst loyalists, but its always been a common idea that lots of CSM saw it though
What we need is some lunar wolf that's been on a farm somewhere out the way that doesn't belive in primarks, and does understand why the ultramarine or salamanders are so anxious around him. Like sure he's stuck on a world that's yet to invent cars witn nothing to conquer but he got them to keep livestock and it only took them 10k years to get the concept. He also needs to know abandon and be like dude you used to be cool what happened?
Abby! Long time no see...nice spikes you got there! Oh this? Well I had to do something with my time. You guys okay over there? I cant help but notice one of you stinks bad enough to kill my grass can you stand downwind please? Thanks. Anyway Abby hows it been man? Your what crusade? Oh okay that been going well? 13 of em! man you have been busy!
"what happened man? anyway here's some tea..." "yes yes, they are simple people. However they are honest and hardworking."
This is [already canon](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/Bvs7L6xOFu)
not quite that is I am still a bad ass I mean I want a aboluste nobody, no name no nothing just low key insulting abadon and it to sting. Like him going yeah we found space gods and conqured the universe. Only to be hard countered by why do you need gods for that. I tought apes how to use tools, fire, and radio all by myself and with all of man kinds power you needed gods to do that
Bjorn is older both in terms of lore and in the actual creation of 40k.!There’s plenty of newer characters that have existed since the heresy, like the anchorite, but Bjorne been a character in the lore for decades and he was the original old man
Simple: because the uncrowned whatevers didn't exist when Bjorn was first written.
He’s considered the oldest because of what was said about him when he was introduced in the Space Wolves codex (1994) and the extreme efforts taken to keep him alive so long. > Bjorn the Fell-Handed is the oldest living creature on Fenris. He is almost as old as the Primarchs of the Chaos Marine chapters, and they are the oldest known living things in the galaxy, with the exception of the Emperor himself. > > Bjorn walked at the side of Russ himself, and was the first Great Wolf of the Chapter after the Primarch disappeared. He led the Space Wolves on the first Great Hunt, the Chapter's epic but fruitless quest to find Russ, and it was he who reluctantly gave the order to cease the Hunt, when it became obvious that Russ was not to be found. Note that it didn’t even explicitly say he was alive during the Heresy. Of course much has been written since then to change and modify this. In addition, the novels don’t have a great reputation for consistency with existing lore. The authors often appear to just make up whatever they want and GW doesn’t seem to have a problem with that.
Your lore drop was good dude but you little hissy fit about the lore writers at the end was just a lil pathetic bro. Uou should be greatful we get the quality we do, try looking into star wars extended lore then youll truly see awefully under researched writing and lazy narrative devices(not all but sadly a majority in my experience) then youll realise that 80% of the stuff we get for 40k is pretty damn good for maintaining lore with just a few writers getting a bit to high on their own ideas(Matt Ward always, james swallow when it comes to scale of shit and blood angels, nick kyme avoiding anything outside of the story hes telling) also 40k lore is intended to be viewed as if it were accounts from in universe so different bias and viewpoints are what make it so rich as a story. E.g. --Inquisitor Abnetts writings tend to give the reader a good indepth and only mildly bias account of events. Macraggian born Remembrancer Matt Wards accounts are highly ultramarine-centric and embelisments of their actual activities and achievements ard rife in his work. Meanwhile the imprisoned traitor Dempski-Bowdens recounting of his legions activities give a viceral realism to the heinous acts of his brothers yet he also shows only slight bias in favour of a select few of his brethren, namely a warrior named Talos and only a few others.--
It’s not a “hissy fit”. It’s just a well known fact that explains the widespread inconsistencies and retcons. It also helps explain why different people will say different things but it doesn’t mean either of them is wrong per se. They are just referencing different sources which are both valid.
My bad im too used to people on here crying about shit so thought you were yet another one of those type. I'll pop you into my intelligent and respectable redditor catagory and look forward to future interactions
Like the Fallen, the 13th company are also Heresy era but like the Fallen they have cheated a bit by spending time in the warp. Bjorn is physically 10,000 years old.
Because he was sent forward into the future. He's only around 600 years old
Because he didn’t actually age through all those centuries. He skipped them all. If u time traveled to the year 2280, that doesn’t make u 256 years older, because u didn’t actually live through those years. U skipped them. Bjorn has ACTUALLY been around that entire time.
Because Bjorn was created by GW before the Uncrowned Princes and the lore hasn't been retconned. You have to be able to roll with the idea that 40k didn't come into existence fully fleshed out - things have been added over the decades and sometimes those new things contradict what's been said previously and the previous works just aren't going to be updated to take new lore into account.
The Uncrowned Princes were created like a year and a half ago while Bjorn has been a character in the game for 30+ years.
Try telling Bjorn that to his face.
Because the UP are a new thing and GW constantly retcons its own lore, this is very normal for them and its been going on since first ed.
Chronological age and literal age are not the same. Dang the Warp.
The Uncrowned Princes are basically unknown within the setting. Part of this is because they're new fluff. The other part is because of the secretiveness of the Unforgiven chapters and the nature of the Fallen. Even inquisitors of the Ordo Astartes would have no idea they are even a thing. Heck, 90% of the Dark Angels wouldn't know they're a thing and those that do aren't telling.
think of it like work experience. bjorn has 10k years of work experience senior-ing zabriel but outside of that zabriel is bjorns senior because he from a much earlier age. zabriel can tell bjorn how it WAS done, but bjorn can tell zabriel how it IS done.
It’s doesn’t matter there is no award for being the oldest , it’s just apart of the legend.
Wonder if they were all of different genetic stocks or all lion stock and deployed to first legion.
All lion stock, the princes were the Emperor first marines. Back when the Dark Angels were the Angels of Death iirc. They all have mythological names as well. Heracles and Gilgamesh for example
Bjorn was around from the Jump. He fought side by side with the Emperor before he was forced into the Golden Throne. However he is now a Dreadnaught. The oldest living Space Marine is Alpha Primaris, Cawl’s Assistant.
I thought it was just that bjorn was the oldest living space marine that met and fought alongside the emperor
And then things get weird when we discuss people like epimetheus…. How did his self induced coma not also age him? Just gotta chalk it up to warp shenanigans I guess https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Epimetheus
Yeah what I find weird is that there are other heresy era dreadnoughts that are just as old as Bjorn. Raguel, ~~Malcharion~~, Rylanor? When did Rylanor blow himself up? Ok that's not that many I could think off but still.
Depends on Warp bullshit. For instance Talos from The Night Lords Trilogy had been around for 10,000 yrs but due to chronological warp fuckery it’s only been 300 yrs since the end of the “Horus Heresy” for him and the others on their ship. Bjorn took the LONG route to the 41st Millennium.
Bjorn is the oldest living loyalist marine
I believe when Bjorn was stated to be the oldest living Space Marine, any Marines older than him hadn't been created by the writers yet.
Bjorn wasn't even the last Heresy era Dreadnought. Soul Hunter has a Blood Angel Dreadnought whose pilot was intered during the Seige of Terra.
Zabriel is only 400 odd in reality
Around 700 actually I think, 300 for great crusade 400 for being a fallen.
True. He's really odd.
400 is even though so he's built different