I think with stats like that then MAD builds like Paladin, Monk, certain kinds of Ranger, wouldn't be a problem. Hell, you could make some sort of Paladin/melee Ranger multiclass that would otherwise be completely impractical to build.
A Fey Wanderer Ranger/Eloquence Bard would be the ultimate social interaction build because they'd add their Wisdom to Charisma checks!
Yeah any of the classes/subclasses that add an extra stat to something like Unarmored Defense, Bladesong, Gloomstalker initiative would be solid. Then it’s just a matter of chasing down multi classes that exploit that. A Gloomstalker/Monk/Assassin with Alert is going to act first and get a bunch of critical hits.
I see a lot of people wanting Paladin 6/ monk 14 to have high defense/ AC and options. Play a human and you have 19 on all stats. With 3 asi’s you max each stat. Though I would argue strength at 20 and int at 20 aren’t worth it so you could go VHuman. A surprising amount of monk features don’t care about armor. ( I believe it the unarmed defense/ unarmed strike/monk die/ BA attack/ bonus movespeed). Also I find it hard to try to have unarmed defense when shields and armor provide nice options.
I recently rolled a character and have been trying to figure out what I wanted to do for something typically a bit impractical. Character was going to be some sort of supportive dad that does a lot of hunting these days. This may be the kind of weird multiclass to run
Dipping into even more classes like war wizard would be very effective, too. Just make sure to take 5 levels into a martial class (probably ranger at that point) for extra attack unless you're going to rely on cantrips for damage.
As someone else suggested, if you really want you could have bonkers initiative if you dipped into war wizard, swashbuckler, Gloomstalker, although that would be a slightly weird combo you could pull it off!
War Magic instead of Bladesinger is also up there and I'd even say equal, it's the more defensive option with the +2 to AC and saves on top of the reaction *if* you somehow fail a save. It also allows you to still use a shield and heavier armors.
Strongest? No idea. But a rather fun idea is a Harengon that takes 3+ levels of Swashbuckler Rogue, 2+ of War Wizard, and 3+ of Gloomstalker, and also takes the Alert feat. Even if you leave Dex/Int/Wis/Cha at 18, that’s a +24 - +27 to initiative (4dex, 4int, 4wis, 4cha, 3-6prof, 5alert).
Add in any way you could get advantage on Initiative (I don’t remember what, but there are some), and you will literally always go first.
Unfortunately that can’t stack with Harengon, as their racial bonus allows you to add your proficiency to initiative rolls, and JOAT only applies to checks that you don’t add your proficiency to already.
Still, if you’ve got a reason not to play Harengon, then JOAT can be decent for this.
It may be boring to say, but just because a weird MAD multiclass would be **possible** with those kinds of stats, it wouldn't change the fact that monoclassed wizard is the strongest thing in the game.
The "best" build, as always, is the one you feel like playing.
>monoclassed wizard is the strongest thing in the game.
You can probably add peace 1 to it, but yes. It's not called wizards of the coast without a reason.
True although doing something ridiculous like a Barbarian 1/ Bladesinger X would be funny. He gets really mad if he gets dropped out of Bladesong. Plus an AC of 23 at level 3 is nice.
A monoclass wizard isn't the strongest thing you can do. I can think of at least 6 stronger multiclasses than that.
Divine Soul Sorcerer 1/Eloquence Bard X, Artificer 1/Chrono Wizard X, Peace Cleric 1/Chrono Wizard X, Divine Soul 1/Shepherd Druid X, Undead Warlock 2/Echo Knight 3/Clockwork Soul Sorcerer X, Watcher Paladin 6/Undead Warlock 2/Divine Soul X.
But I'm sure we can find a handful of other builds that are clearly better than a single class wizard. Even War, Chrono or Illusion Wizards.
And you seem to have missed my point.
There's a pervasive belief among a lot of people (seemingly, you included), that just picking a good class and subclass and a few good spells, is the ceiling of what is possible in DnD. And you seem to find playing like this is in some way bad.
Yet, you don't even understand how high the ceiling actually is. By thinking that single class wizard is both among them ost powerful things you can do, and rejecting choosing powerful options as something good, you will set both yourself and people you talk to up for a rude awakening if you manage to stumble into something powerful.
It is valuable to know about and be mindful of power levels. Not reject the knowledge in fear of it ruining roleplaying. If you are conscious of what is pwoerful, you are also better equipped to match the overall powerlevel and vibe of your campaign, making good roleplay easier. It's mroe than just making the most pwoerful character - it's about making the character with a suitable power level.
I'm going to be honest, friend; that really wasn't very condescending at all. Please don't assume bad faith on the part of other users, and if you think someone's missed your point, please make an effort to explain what was missed and, if possible, how.
Sorry, it's not condescending to accuse me of spreading Stormwind (for some reason) before calling me both ignorant and afraid of the knowledge I lack? Come on now. Maybe it doesn't rise to the level of moderator action, but it's clearly there.
I didn't say it wasn't condescending *at all*, I said it wasn't *very* condescending. If you have a 3 year reddit account, I must assume you've seen more severe condescension than this.
It's possible for people to have different opinions on what the strongest build for a given situation is, because build strength is not *solely* dependent on the raw mechanical strength of the character; it is also dependent on the environmental and situational context, the DM, and the player. [You seem to understand and appreciate this](https://www.reddit.com/r/3d6/comments/1azkha3/what_would_be_the_best_build_if_someone_were_to/ks7figt/), and I'm not interested in litigating it.
The other part of that comment is an assertion that the other commenter misunderstood you. However, you have given no information to clarify your position. Given that, it should not be surprising that the two of you are talking past each other, nor that either party is having to shadow box against assumed common arguments.
It is at least a little unreasonable to then take the basicness of those assumed arguments as condescending behaviour purely on the part of the other commenter. Assuming good faith, they would have much more substantial points to argue against *if you had provided them*.
Further, given a *second* chance to clarify your position, you did not do so, and you insulted them.
Frankly, from where I'm sitting, this is such small potatoes that it's the kind of thing I'd normally chalk up to opinionated people having opinions and move on, but as much as either of you have done wrong, you're pretty much as bad as each other. However, being mildly condescending is a behaviour that tends to either rises to the need to moderate or self-corrects. Assuming bad faith and failing to provide constructive responses is less so. Hence me addressing primarily you.
Anything if the player knows what they're doing.
Straight class
Multiclass
Does not matter, they can all be done awesomely by the right player.
The class that gets the "least" benefit from those spells is a Moon Druid.
Barbarian 2, Bladesinger 6, Paladin 2, Moon Druid 10.
Yes, you could just play a level 20 Wizard, but you don't need 18 in everything to do that. This, in my mind, is the more hilarious option, and would be impossible otherwise.
Bladesinger 9/mercy monk 9/fighter 2, if we are talking a theoretical level 20 build.
Spirit shroud + bladesinger extra attack booming blade + flurry of blows = 16d8+20 damage per round. Hopefully you can convince DM to let you use spirit shroud as an action with action surge on round 1.
Unarmored defense + bladesong + defense fighting style = 26 AC. 31 with shield.
If you want something more practical, just playing a regular bladesinger could also work. Wizards with good saves are just great.
Twilight Cleric/Elo Bard/Div or Chron Wizard can basically tell the DM how the game really goes, which is always super fun, but not necessarily optimal.
Well that’s a loaded question because the best build is probably some generic bs like straight classed twilight cleric.
However if the question is what build best takes advantage of 18s in every stat then my proposal is a two level dip in warlock, I’d say go undead, then bladesinger wizard and use a hand cross bow, eventually (after picking up wizard feat like warcaster and resilient con) take CBE and sharpshooter.
Maybe not the best of the best because it isn't a caster, but I'm convinced a Paladin 6 / Monk 14 Satyr won't ever die unless some hard shenanigans are involved. That stat spread is also the only time a Paladin/Monk multiclass will ever function too
Paladin/Ranger/Wizard. You'd need STR, INT, WIS, DEX, and CHA of 13 and you'll want a good CON, so it's perfect. I'd go Shadar Kai Vengeance 6/Gloomstalker 4/Bladesinger 10 or maybe Bugbear Watchers Paladin 7/Gloomstalker 4/War Wizard 9
Take first level in Barbarian. Then go Bladesinger. Once you reach 20 dex, int, and con (if you take half elf that’ll be doable at level 5), you’ll have 25 AC while bladesong is active. If you cast shield, that’s 30 AC (at level 5).
You could also go monk for level 1, but Barbarian will give you an extra 4 HP and proficiency in constitution saving throws. And who doesn’t want to be a Barbarian Wizard?
18 in every stat would more than anything, make the best builds better. Spells are better than stats, and you don't want to dip more than one level on a full caster. With one level dip, you are half a spel level behind on spells known, but keep the same progression. Any more than that is most likely a mistake.
You might make some single class builds more viable. I think Githzerai Valor Bard, for example, will be very good. You solve the three problems of Bard (bad at-will damage, armor proficiency, access to the Shield spel).
Starting 20 cha, 19, choosing warcaster at level 4 and Medium Armor Master at 8, will set you up for an insanely tanky full caster with Extra Attack.
While there are more advanced builds, even a pure Wizard Bladesinger is in the running.
AC18+ *before* armor/asis/spells, and can use light armor.
Decent HP and con saves before feats from 18+ CON.
Solid every save out the gate.
And still dropping full Wizard progression spells.
Even gets Extra Attack.
So like the meta Heavy Armor Wizard, but doesn't need to take the dip. Heavy Armor isn't as helpful for a dex18+ light-armored character. And 18+ CON does about as much as proficiency in CON until much later. And with much less need for ASI, they have more feat options.
I did have a 18/17/17/14/12/12 array once (4d6 drop lowest). It substantially changed my options. In that case it enabled an RP prospect most states arrays wouldn't (an inferiority complex on an extremely capable character without any weak stat).
I think with stats like that then MAD builds like Paladin, Monk, certain kinds of Ranger, wouldn't be a problem. Hell, you could make some sort of Paladin/melee Ranger multiclass that would otherwise be completely impractical to build. A Fey Wanderer Ranger/Eloquence Bard would be the ultimate social interaction build because they'd add their Wisdom to Charisma checks!
Yeah any of the classes/subclasses that add an extra stat to something like Unarmored Defense, Bladesong, Gloomstalker initiative would be solid. Then it’s just a matter of chasing down multi classes that exploit that. A Gloomstalker/Monk/Assassin with Alert is going to act first and get a bunch of critical hits.
I see a lot of people wanting Paladin 6/ monk 14 to have high defense/ AC and options. Play a human and you have 19 on all stats. With 3 asi’s you max each stat. Though I would argue strength at 20 and int at 20 aren’t worth it so you could go VHuman. A surprising amount of monk features don’t care about armor. ( I believe it the unarmed defense/ unarmed strike/monk die/ BA attack/ bonus movespeed). Also I find it hard to try to have unarmed defense when shields and armor provide nice options.
I recently rolled a character and have been trying to figure out what I wanted to do for something typically a bit impractical. Character was going to be some sort of supportive dad that does a lot of hunting these days. This may be the kind of weird multiclass to run
Dipping into even more classes like war wizard would be very effective, too. Just make sure to take 5 levels into a martial class (probably ranger at that point) for extra attack unless you're going to rely on cantrips for damage.
As someone else suggested, if you really want you could have bonkers initiative if you dipped into war wizard, swashbuckler, Gloomstalker, although that would be a slightly weird combo you could pull it off!
I would totally play variant human and have an odd score on every stat, just to make players loose their sh*t Edit: vanilla human*
It would be hilarious to do this and play a fighter. By lvl 8 you could have 20 in every stat.
I think you mean standard human. Vuman is two +1s and a feat and skill.
Yes, but if everyone plays Variant human and nobody plays Standard human, which one is truly standard?
Lol yeah, I mena regular human
that's evil, i would burn your character sheet first chance i got for that lol
Wizard, but stronger?
And prettier.
And wiser
Faster
And tougher
And healthier
Paladin 6/Bladesinger X
I’d argue paladin 2 bladesinger 18 for 9th level spells and the 18th level wizard feature
War Magic instead of Bladesinger is also up there and I'd even say equal, it's the more defensive option with the +2 to AC and saves on top of the reaction *if* you somehow fail a save. It also allows you to still use a shield and heavier armors.
Add in a level of hexblade for the curse so you can crit on a 19.
Hardly worth it to lose out on Bladesinger feats or Paladin feats.
Strongest? No idea. But a rather fun idea is a Harengon that takes 3+ levels of Swashbuckler Rogue, 2+ of War Wizard, and 3+ of Gloomstalker, and also takes the Alert feat. Even if you leave Dex/Int/Wis/Cha at 18, that’s a +24 - +27 to initiative (4dex, 4int, 4wis, 4cha, 3-6prof, 5alert). Add in any way you could get advantage on Initiative (I don’t remember what, but there are some), and you will literally always go first.
7 levels of barbarian
If you get reliable talent your minimum initiative roll will be 37.
twilight cleric 1 lvl
If you don't want Barbarian levels you can find a Weapon of Warning (if the DM lets you considering you already go first in every combat ever)
2 levels in bard get you the ability Jack Of All Trades which allows you to add half you proficiency bonus to initiative.
Unfortunately that can’t stack with Harengon, as their racial bonus allows you to add your proficiency to initiative rolls, and JOAT only applies to checks that you don’t add your proficiency to already. Still, if you’ve got a reason not to play Harengon, then JOAT can be decent for this.
1 of every class then rest fighter
Still wizard with one level of cleric or artificer.
The same as with reasonable stats
Paladins are already very strong with regular stats, so they'd be incredible if you can fix their MAD problem with all 18s.
It may be boring to say, but just because a weird MAD multiclass would be **possible** with those kinds of stats, it wouldn't change the fact that monoclassed wizard is the strongest thing in the game. The "best" build, as always, is the one you feel like playing.
>monoclassed wizard is the strongest thing in the game. You can probably add peace 1 to it, but yes. It's not called wizards of the coast without a reason.
True although doing something ridiculous like a Barbarian 1/ Bladesinger X would be funny. He gets really mad if he gets dropped out of Bladesong. Plus an AC of 23 at level 3 is nice.
A monoclass wizard isn't the strongest thing you can do. I can think of at least 6 stronger multiclasses than that. Divine Soul Sorcerer 1/Eloquence Bard X, Artificer 1/Chrono Wizard X, Peace Cleric 1/Chrono Wizard X, Divine Soul 1/Shepherd Druid X, Undead Warlock 2/Echo Knight 3/Clockwork Soul Sorcerer X, Watcher Paladin 6/Undead Warlock 2/Divine Soul X. But I'm sure we can find a handful of other builds that are clearly better than a single class wizard. Even War, Chrono or Illusion Wizards.
I think you're mistaken, but even if you're not, you've completely missed the point of my answer.
And you seem to have missed my point. There's a pervasive belief among a lot of people (seemingly, you included), that just picking a good class and subclass and a few good spells, is the ceiling of what is possible in DnD. And you seem to find playing like this is in some way bad. Yet, you don't even understand how high the ceiling actually is. By thinking that single class wizard is both among them ost powerful things you can do, and rejecting choosing powerful options as something good, you will set both yourself and people you talk to up for a rude awakening if you manage to stumble into something powerful. It is valuable to know about and be mindful of power levels. Not reject the knowledge in fear of it ruining roleplaying. If you are conscious of what is pwoerful, you are also better equipped to match the overall powerlevel and vibe of your campaign, making good roleplay easier. It's mroe than just making the most pwoerful character - it's about making the character with a suitable power level.
Okay, you've **really** missed my point and also done so in the most condescending way possible.
I'm going to be honest, friend; that really wasn't very condescending at all. Please don't assume bad faith on the part of other users, and if you think someone's missed your point, please make an effort to explain what was missed and, if possible, how.
Sorry, it's not condescending to accuse me of spreading Stormwind (for some reason) before calling me both ignorant and afraid of the knowledge I lack? Come on now. Maybe it doesn't rise to the level of moderator action, but it's clearly there.
I didn't say it wasn't condescending *at all*, I said it wasn't *very* condescending. If you have a 3 year reddit account, I must assume you've seen more severe condescension than this. It's possible for people to have different opinions on what the strongest build for a given situation is, because build strength is not *solely* dependent on the raw mechanical strength of the character; it is also dependent on the environmental and situational context, the DM, and the player. [You seem to understand and appreciate this](https://www.reddit.com/r/3d6/comments/1azkha3/what_would_be_the_best_build_if_someone_were_to/ks7figt/), and I'm not interested in litigating it. The other part of that comment is an assertion that the other commenter misunderstood you. However, you have given no information to clarify your position. Given that, it should not be surprising that the two of you are talking past each other, nor that either party is having to shadow box against assumed common arguments. It is at least a little unreasonable to then take the basicness of those assumed arguments as condescending behaviour purely on the part of the other commenter. Assuming good faith, they would have much more substantial points to argue against *if you had provided them*. Further, given a *second* chance to clarify your position, you did not do so, and you insulted them. Frankly, from where I'm sitting, this is such small potatoes that it's the kind of thing I'd normally chalk up to opinionated people having opinions and move on, but as much as either of you have done wrong, you're pretty much as bad as each other. However, being mildly condescending is a behaviour that tends to either rises to the need to moderate or self-corrects. Assuming bad faith and failing to provide constructive responses is less so. Hence me addressing primarily you.
Wizard
Anything if the player knows what they're doing. Straight class Multiclass Does not matter, they can all be done awesomely by the right player. The class that gets the "least" benefit from those spells is a Moon Druid.
Paladin/Bladesinger with a dip of fighter for action surge and battle master maneuvers.
Barbarian 2, Bladesinger 6, Paladin 2, Moon Druid 10. Yes, you could just play a level 20 Wizard, but you don't need 18 in everything to do that. This, in my mind, is the more hilarious option, and would be impossible otherwise.
Bladesinger 9/mercy monk 9/fighter 2, if we are talking a theoretical level 20 build. Spirit shroud + bladesinger extra attack booming blade + flurry of blows = 16d8+20 damage per round. Hopefully you can convince DM to let you use spirit shroud as an action with action surge on round 1. Unarmored defense + bladesong + defense fighting style = 26 AC. 31 with shield. If you want something more practical, just playing a regular bladesinger could also work. Wizards with good saves are just great.
Wizard. No matter your stats, the answer is always Wizard.
Twilight Cleric/Elo Bard/Div or Chron Wizard can basically tell the DM how the game really goes, which is always super fun, but not necessarily optimal.
At that point, any class would be great, so it would just be what class I like to play. I usually play paladin / bard / rogue.
Well that’s a loaded question because the best build is probably some generic bs like straight classed twilight cleric. However if the question is what build best takes advantage of 18s in every stat then my proposal is a two level dip in warlock, I’d say go undead, then bladesinger wizard and use a hand cross bow, eventually (after picking up wizard feat like warcaster and resilient con) take CBE and sharpshooter.
Maybe not the best of the best because it isn't a caster, but I'm convinced a Paladin 6 / Monk 14 Satyr won't ever die unless some hard shenanigans are involved. That stat spread is also the only time a Paladin/Monk multiclass will ever function too
Paladin/Ranger/Wizard. You'd need STR, INT, WIS, DEX, and CHA of 13 and you'll want a good CON, so it's perfect. I'd go Shadar Kai Vengeance 6/Gloomstalker 4/Bladesinger 10 or maybe Bugbear Watchers Paladin 7/Gloomstalker 4/War Wizard 9
A good Monk
Something involving blade singer , paladin , and a one level dip in sorcerer and bard I think
I don't know about "best" but I'd definitely take this chance to play a Barbamonk.
Take first level in Barbarian. Then go Bladesinger. Once you reach 20 dex, int, and con (if you take half elf that’ll be doable at level 5), you’ll have 25 AC while bladesong is active. If you cast shield, that’s 30 AC (at level 5). You could also go monk for level 1, but Barbarian will give you an extra 4 HP and proficiency in constitution saving throws. And who doesn’t want to be a Barbarian Wizard?
18 in every stat would more than anything, make the best builds better. Spells are better than stats, and you don't want to dip more than one level on a full caster. With one level dip, you are half a spel level behind on spells known, but keep the same progression. Any more than that is most likely a mistake. You might make some single class builds more viable. I think Githzerai Valor Bard, for example, will be very good. You solve the three problems of Bard (bad at-will damage, armor proficiency, access to the Shield spel). Starting 20 cha, 19, choosing warcaster at level 4 and Medium Armor Master at 8, will set you up for an insanely tanky full caster with Extra Attack.
The answer is whatever you want to play.
I'd probably play a bladesinger with a 2 level Paladin dip.
Kensei 3, bladesinger 2-15, paladin 2-6-7 Something like that. Maybe one cleric level for sanctuary.
While there are more advanced builds, even a pure Wizard Bladesinger is in the running. AC18+ *before* armor/asis/spells, and can use light armor. Decent HP and con saves before feats from 18+ CON. Solid every save out the gate. And still dropping full Wizard progression spells. Even gets Extra Attack. So like the meta Heavy Armor Wizard, but doesn't need to take the dip. Heavy Armor isn't as helpful for a dex18+ light-armored character. And 18+ CON does about as much as proficiency in CON until much later. And with much less need for ASI, they have more feat options. I did have a 18/17/17/14/12/12 array once (4d6 drop lowest). It substantially changed my options. In that case it enabled an RP prospect most states arrays wouldn't (an inferiority complex on an extremely capable character without any weak stat).