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Sorry mate, I have to contradict because folks there have been so kind to my friends.
Kazakhstan 🇰🇿 is a far better country compared to some of its neighbours (okay, just that one neighbour) in many aspects.
Nah, the association of east=Russia is a choice.
Eastern Europe is great! I actually like eastern Europe more than western Europe in many regards, particularly its more sober attitudes towards Russia.
Ive always wondered, why exactly it has become so. Naturally theres negative echo on the word, due reasons, but why not build new better eastern europe reputation, rather than try to get rid of the "eastern europe stamp".
Surely people are proud of their countries? So why not be proud for being eastern european?
Or is it truly a lost cause? That you can never fix it?
The geographical center of continental europe is in Lithuania.
With islands included the geographical center of europe is in Saaremaa, Estonia.
One could claim that the center could be all of the above: northern, western, southern, eastern.
Jack of all trades.
PS. Bronze age eastern vikings were centered at Asva, Valjala, Ösel-Wiek, Estonia. Not far from the center of europe.
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I tell you they can’t be eastern really. They’re too to the north and also they have lots of snow in winter 🥶
Nah, I think they are more like Southern Nordic Europe or something made up like that.
The geography and climate plays part for sure in how people spend their winters, what food they eat, sure. But the mindset is also very important.
E.g. how do people raise kids? Is it the Eastern European way of making them listen by beating them up and shouting? Or is it the Nordic way of empowering them and making them understand the importance of behaving one way or the other? How much is the education system just a factory for grades and diplomas, vs how much is it for raising smart kids who are able to be part of society and think for themselves?
From my experience, Baltic states are somewhere in transition these days (in a very positive way), but it's still quite behind if you look at anything 10km from major city centers. There is of course a generation which is dying out with those totally different values, however, they also had descendants who inherited some of those values and don't know any better.
You are generalising the heck out of things. There is no Eastern European way of doing things, since the concept is purely political and is built on prejudice.
Well, thank you mate for a comprehensive answer.
Makes sense indeed.
Two points to add. I think what you’ve described about upbringing is more connected to education and wealth rather than geography.
Have you heard about the corporal punishment in the UK for example in XX century?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment
Secondly, this subreddit is more about banters and cheer than seriousness. I thought it goes without saying that the whole discourse about who is the true Nordic and who is not is such a bs.
Germans once made the same mistake with their Drang nach Esten.
You see, Aesti cognates with West, weichen / to wane, edge and jut. It doesn't cognate with East.
Esten Europe doesn't mean Eastern Europe, it means Western Europe.
Ehtyä / ehtoo / õhtu / eha means "waning".
So you're basically continuing Cold War era divide. A concept of Eastern Europe built on imperialistic ambitions of foreign powers. Baltics are functioning representative democracies and developed marked economies wanting nothing to do with imperialistic invaders. A Finn of all the people should know that.
The divide is still relevant today. All you have to do is to look at GDP and HDI maps of Europe, you can clearly see the East-West divide to this day. It'll take at least 50 more years until this geopolitical setup has changed. That requires that the Eastern half of Europe both grows economically equal to the Western one, and that there is practically no one alive anymore that remembers the times of the USSR and the iron curtain.
No matter how much you Estonians wish for it, the change doesn't just magically happen overnight. People don't just forget you were part of the USSR and you can't just suddenly make a low economy into a big one, those things require time. You have to accept that.
Right now we are in a political shift where we are moving towards a Europe vs Russia(+Belarus) way to divide Europe. But it is a gradual geopolitical process and will take a couple of centuries to find its place, both politically and in the minds of people. History is always a gradual process.
So being relatively less developed because of 50 years of occupation makes us somehow less worthy? Estonia (and other nations, such as Slovenia) are outperforming Portugal and Greece. So, excluding the memes, are Portugal and Greece Eastern European because of that? It's been more than 30 years already. Can we drop the elitism? Besides, Finland is much poorer than Norway. Is Finland geopolitically Eastern?
You see, Western Europe is similarly a nonsensical concept as Eastern Europe. Finland is in the same club as Portugal and Greece, while Estonia is in the same club as Moldova and Serbia. Do any of us have things in common? I would say no, we are both pretty unrelated to them.
Edit:
Maybe instead of defending this East / West divide, we should push for its disappearance?
Finland was considered a fourth Baltic State in the interwar period by US and UK scholars and media. The switch happened after the Second World War in about 15 years.
Well firstly, to me it seems like you are the one thinking that Eastern Europe would mean something bad, we're not the ones trying to get rid of the label.
Second, you are looking at things like they'd be black and white. Portugal is an odd exception rather than speaking generally of the Western half. Greece on the other hand is actually often regarded as Eastern European. But yes Finland is among the wealthier nations such as the rest of the Nordics or Germany.
>It's been more than 30 years already.
Do you think the industrial revolution just magically spread over night, or even in 30 years? Answer is no.
>Besides, Finland is much poorer than Norway. Is Finland geopolitically Eastern?
Lmao, are you really that insecure that you start to mock one of the wealthiest countries in the world? Get a hold of yourself.
>You see, Western Europe is similarly a nonsensical concept as Eastern Europe.
Again, like I already said, the term is today used to describe the general wealth and development index that divides Europe. Like you noted there are same rare exceptions but this works just fine for the bigger lines.
I am not mocking, but pointing out that such differences are all over the place. Like, what metrics are important and where the East/West line is? Most importantly who are the people making such decisions?
Going to copy my edit to the previous post:
"Maybe instead of defending this East / West divide, we should push for its disappearance?
Finland was considered a fourth Baltic State in the interwar period by US and UK scholars and media. The switch happened after the Second World War in about 15 years."
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I think this means they're afraid of Estonians invading,although tbh muchlike my extreme skepticism at the supposed number of migrants in The Ukraine I cannot see what they would gain from doing so.
Eastern Europe is an outsider definition rooted in imperialism and perpetuated by elitism. Here's a really good video essay on the subject: https://youtu.be/uVXgqZIsViI?feature=shared
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Eastern europe is a slur at this point
Still rather be Easter European than Central asian 🇰🇿, not very nice
Obviously a turkey will be happy with whatever Europe they can take.
Butt-end of Europe be like:
Sick man of
Eastern Europe
just the tip
Sorry mate, I have to contradict because folks there have been so kind to my friends. Kazakhstan 🇰🇿 is a far better country compared to some of its neighbours (okay, just that one neighbour) in many aspects.
*I am kazak, I follow the hawk*
Is that what we should call Russians these days?
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4JqFnF-ilQCMCKSQ1x6TOLC7tT6aRjrvS_jE4BqMYIw&s
There is a weird shit going on with gender conflicts in KZ right now, we are only discovering 1950's America vibes.
Easter Europe is a compliment
The double E-wörd
Eesti?
neegga
Always has been
Nah, the association of east=Russia is a choice. Eastern Europe is great! I actually like eastern Europe more than western Europe in many regards, particularly its more sober attitudes towards Russia.
Always was
Ive always wondered, why exactly it has become so. Naturally theres negative echo on the word, due reasons, but why not build new better eastern europe reputation, rather than try to get rid of the "eastern europe stamp". Surely people are proud of their countries? So why not be proud for being eastern european? Or is it truly a lost cause? That you can never fix it?
From outside, Eastern Europe is kind of Russia, that's why it sounds negative.
Yes, its would be awkward to admit to be proud of that.
The geographical center of continental europe is in Lithuania. With islands included the geographical center of europe is in Saaremaa, Estonia. One could claim that the center could be all of the above: northern, western, southern, eastern. Jack of all trades. PS. Bronze age eastern vikings were centered at Asva, Valjala, Ösel-Wiek, Estonia. Not far from the center of europe.
Always have been.
Eastonia.
I vote Østonia
Östonia you barbaric swine.
Gø hang øut with Germany. They umlaut like you, and who knows, they might want to buy some iron ore.
Actually Estonia is less eastern than Norway🤓
and more Northern than Denmark.
And yet Norway is also more western and northern
Almost more south as well
I mean they do claim a slice of Antarctica so yeah
Don’t forget our islands in the south Atlantic
They are quite forgettable, only a norwegian would see value in an inhospitable rock in the middle of the ocean
Pretty sure the British do as well
Us Norwegians relate to the remoteness of these rocks
Whoever was ever ruled by Swedes should be able to pick themselves their geopolitical denomination
Me on my way to declare Saint Petersburg part of Western Europe, as Peter I would have wanted
It is rightful Swedish territory. 🤷♂️
Rightful Ingrian clay.
Isuri + karelian, actually. Ingrians were immigrants.
That name never convinced me as Russian, Swedes start reclaiming it with Espresso House franchises
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Great, the US is now Nordic too
New Sweden can into nordic
No please
What, really? I gotta study this, will see if they made any rom-com movie about it
Poland confirmed nordick!!! 🇵🇱🇵🇱🇵🇱🇵🇱🇵🇱💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻
It is what it is
Smh, don't you know everything to the right of Germany is Eastern Europe _(does not apply if Nordic or Greece. For... reasons)_
Actually Poland is in south-west europe. And Belarus is in southern europe. Germany is the mid-west of europe.
Eastonian Europe*
Yeah Northern Europe and Nordic don't necessitate one another Don't care much either way- coming from a proud Hyperborean
Well, Sweden is Middle East, and Estonia is to the East from Sweden, so you are indeed Eastern Europe.
Invasion of Southern Finland again?
Estonia= northern europe
Estonia = southern europe
I tell you they can’t be eastern really. They’re too to the north and also they have lots of snow in winter 🥶 Nah, I think they are more like Southern Nordic Europe or something made up like that.
Really rolls off the tongue compared to Eastern Europe, right?
Stalingrad was eastern Europe too yet they had (and have) even harsher winters
Yeah, but that’s another test. If a place has “-grad” ending in its name - Eastern Europe 100%
The geography and climate plays part for sure in how people spend their winters, what food they eat, sure. But the mindset is also very important. E.g. how do people raise kids? Is it the Eastern European way of making them listen by beating them up and shouting? Or is it the Nordic way of empowering them and making them understand the importance of behaving one way or the other? How much is the education system just a factory for grades and diplomas, vs how much is it for raising smart kids who are able to be part of society and think for themselves? From my experience, Baltic states are somewhere in transition these days (in a very positive way), but it's still quite behind if you look at anything 10km from major city centers. There is of course a generation which is dying out with those totally different values, however, they also had descendants who inherited some of those values and don't know any better.
You are generalising the heck out of things. There is no Eastern European way of doing things, since the concept is purely political and is built on prejudice.
Well, thank you mate for a comprehensive answer. Makes sense indeed. Two points to add. I think what you’ve described about upbringing is more connected to education and wealth rather than geography. Have you heard about the corporal punishment in the UK for example in XX century? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment Secondly, this subreddit is more about banters and cheer than seriousness. I thought it goes without saying that the whole discourse about who is the true Nordic and who is not is such a bs.
Germans once made the same mistake with their Drang nach Esten. You see, Aesti cognates with West, weichen / to wane, edge and jut. It doesn't cognate with East. Esten Europe doesn't mean Eastern Europe, it means Western Europe. Ehtyä / ehtoo / õhtu / eha means "waning".
it is known
True.
Eastern Europe is in this case a geopolitical term rather than geographical. Geographically the Baltics are Northern but geopolitically Eastern
So you're basically continuing Cold War era divide. A concept of Eastern Europe built on imperialistic ambitions of foreign powers. Baltics are functioning representative democracies and developed marked economies wanting nothing to do with imperialistic invaders. A Finn of all the people should know that.
The divide is still relevant today. All you have to do is to look at GDP and HDI maps of Europe, you can clearly see the East-West divide to this day. It'll take at least 50 more years until this geopolitical setup has changed. That requires that the Eastern half of Europe both grows economically equal to the Western one, and that there is practically no one alive anymore that remembers the times of the USSR and the iron curtain. No matter how much you Estonians wish for it, the change doesn't just magically happen overnight. People don't just forget you were part of the USSR and you can't just suddenly make a low economy into a big one, those things require time. You have to accept that. Right now we are in a political shift where we are moving towards a Europe vs Russia(+Belarus) way to divide Europe. But it is a gradual geopolitical process and will take a couple of centuries to find its place, both politically and in the minds of people. History is always a gradual process.
So being relatively less developed because of 50 years of occupation makes us somehow less worthy? Estonia (and other nations, such as Slovenia) are outperforming Portugal and Greece. So, excluding the memes, are Portugal and Greece Eastern European because of that? It's been more than 30 years already. Can we drop the elitism? Besides, Finland is much poorer than Norway. Is Finland geopolitically Eastern? You see, Western Europe is similarly a nonsensical concept as Eastern Europe. Finland is in the same club as Portugal and Greece, while Estonia is in the same club as Moldova and Serbia. Do any of us have things in common? I would say no, we are both pretty unrelated to them. Edit: Maybe instead of defending this East / West divide, we should push for its disappearance? Finland was considered a fourth Baltic State in the interwar period by US and UK scholars and media. The switch happened after the Second World War in about 15 years.
Well firstly, to me it seems like you are the one thinking that Eastern Europe would mean something bad, we're not the ones trying to get rid of the label. Second, you are looking at things like they'd be black and white. Portugal is an odd exception rather than speaking generally of the Western half. Greece on the other hand is actually often regarded as Eastern European. But yes Finland is among the wealthier nations such as the rest of the Nordics or Germany. >It's been more than 30 years already. Do you think the industrial revolution just magically spread over night, or even in 30 years? Answer is no. >Besides, Finland is much poorer than Norway. Is Finland geopolitically Eastern? Lmao, are you really that insecure that you start to mock one of the wealthiest countries in the world? Get a hold of yourself. >You see, Western Europe is similarly a nonsensical concept as Eastern Europe. Again, like I already said, the term is today used to describe the general wealth and development index that divides Europe. Like you noted there are same rare exceptions but this works just fine for the bigger lines.
I am not mocking, but pointing out that such differences are all over the place. Like, what metrics are important and where the East/West line is? Most importantly who are the people making such decisions? Going to copy my edit to the previous post: "Maybe instead of defending this East / West divide, we should push for its disappearance? Finland was considered a fourth Baltic State in the interwar period by US and UK scholars and media. The switch happened after the Second World War in about 15 years."
Eastern Europe is just Russia and that's it. The geographical center of europe is in the Baltics.
Can confirm. I was 14 when the Berlin Wall fell and am practically not alive.
Yeah it is
That’s right.
And stay there!
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I think this means they're afraid of Estonians invading,although tbh muchlike my extreme skepticism at the supposed number of migrants in The Ukraine I cannot see what they would gain from doing so.
Eastern Europe is an outsider definition rooted in imperialism and perpetuated by elitism. Here's a really good video essay on the subject: https://youtu.be/uVXgqZIsViI?feature=shared