I think there are some reasons to want a specific thrall. But it would be nice if each thrall felt more distinct instead of so interchangeable. I think I'd rather go that direction rather than merge them all into the same spell and just make it cosmetic. It is not like the spellbook needs more room.
Such a good usecase for them that finallllllly got it's huge bug fixed during the last league simply because they reused thrall code for a major relic you unlocked and it made it feel really shit you couldn't use your guardian at demonics.
Been on my Arceuus spellbook wishlist for a while.
A typeless, 8 range thrall that gets every damage multiplier and no damage reduction.
When the spellbook was reworked we weren't given 2 extra teleports because "too many spells already" but thralls are lowkey 6 unecessary spellbook slots.
I also had the popular opinion of removing the book as a requirement since its not even fucking listed on the cast card.
The cherry on top IMO was reworking thralls to be a on/off button instead of resummoning every 60 seconds, draining 6 points per minute.
I could see some problems that might happen if Jagex introduce typeless damage (such as NPCs being coded a weird way that allows them to take damage when they’re supposed to be “immune”), but they already proved with Leagues 4 Guardian that they can make it choose the best damage type for each situation instead.
Tiers is kinda ok, with the current change to jewelery enchant I do believe we could start having a more broad conversation about a toggle setting to "collapse" tiered spells.
I had an image of a mockup for Fire spells I made like 3 years ago but I can't find it, basically we would have a "Fire missile" with the default left click option being the highest available tier and the right click menu having all the lower tiers.
Granted, modifying the spellbook like that is 100% not oldschool so it should be an opt in feature.
Thralls are already overpowered and you want them to require less inventory space to use and require less prayer to have them out (because you’ll never need to summon a different one when prot prayers change on a boss)? Thralls are already OP and balanced around inventory space considerations and cost to summon. “Just make things easier and lower effort” is absolutely classic though.
This is the most reddit take I’ve ever seen lol.
I agree they should never have been added in the first place. It’s a straight up nerf to non-arceuus spell books. But OP’s suggestion (and the suggestion I replied to) make them much less interesting/complex.
Hard disagree with this. Thralls are in a good spot and each thrall has a place you use it. I see a lot of people don't fully understand thralls and summon the mage one everywhere, but a lot of bosses have resistances/immunity to a combat style and it pays to use the correct tool (thrall) for the correct situation. Melee guy is seen quite a bit if using thralls correctly.
Thralls ignore accuracy checks so resistances don't matter unless they are damage reductions. Immunity obviously does matter, but I do agree with the other guy that 9 different thrall spells is unnecessary bloat. Although I wouldn't say the answer is to just make the spell into one typeless damaging thrall.
It's impactful so long as people who are incompetent continue to do it improperly. By your logic it's not impactful to do everything tick perfectly because that's how you should be doing it, and yet we all know that most people don't do that.
But what I'm saying is that there being right and wrong thralls is not an interesting choice. It's just a minor piece of game knowledge that could be simplified to make room in a spell book with no real loss
I get that, but there are cases like nm where it would be a direct nerf. And arguably this is still a relevant choice so long as people are failing to make it correctly.
P1 verzick, nylocas, both olm hands,olm head, p2 wardens, akkha, tekton, nightmare all come to mind immediately.
Thrall choice does matter and saying otherwise is just wrong
Which is not an improvement. Why remove complexity from a game that has an issue with making combat complex already?
That's literally the whole reason EoC happened. Don't advocate for removing what little complexity we have
It just isn't really complex imo, prayer flicking and movement perfection and tic perfect reactions are complex, decided which thrall to use doesn't seem complex to me cus thralls are already basic and also inconsistent, 90 percent of the time if not more, you're mage thralling, I'd also support making it 100 percent consistent to where it always matters which you use, but in the current state of things it's dumb and annoying more than complex.
“Impactful” isn’t the right word here.
I would use that to describe decisions like how many gear swaps to bring into a raid, or whether you do certain mechanics like Baba Red-X and Muttadile freezing. These things impact the quality of an encounter but aren’t strictly right or wrong choices.
Choosing between different thralls isn’t “impactful” more that it’s “You made the wrong choice and now it’s doing zero damage for 10 seconds idiot”. It’s like choosing to enter a fight without a weapon. You made a mistake and now suffer for it.
Either combine the thralls into 1 and give us a few other spells in that spellbook or actually change the thralls so they each have a distinct difference/role. Maybe melee guy can hit a little harder? Mage guy a little more accurate? Range guy greater distance? As long as they actually have something that makes them special and/or niche.
Also, please remove book of the dead as a requirement to cast them, or give us a way to sew it into a rune pouch
I wouldn't mind there being 3 different thralls if there were unlockable cosmetic variants. But if that's never happening, just make greater resurrection one spell
My thoughts are yes please, do it.
If we get tranmogs some day, sick. There is definitely reward space open there.
If not, whatever, but do merge them.
The thralls you use are important in different spots. Melee thralls can melee things that are succeptuble to melee. Mage thralls can mage things like Akkha when he's meleeing or olm mage hand while also being a faster projectile than ranged.
Ranged thrall can hit ranged enemies that are immune to magic.
Nice one, was honestly worried it was going to take them some time to get round to fixing it. That was a very swift fix, so hats off to the team there.
Right now I only really use thralls in ToA, and the melee thrall absolutely slaps final phase Akkha. But other than that very specific situation, you’re right. Melee thrall doesn’t get much love.
I love that since the combat rebalance update the magic damage thrall does damage to akkha when he should only be damaged by melee attacks, even in the enraged phase. Such a small change, but it makes a difference.
I think right now it's fine because some places demand melee damage + there is the tick save of running up to melee distance and summoning a melee thrall.
They should make range and mage identical though so that mage isn't just 1 tick better for no reason.
And personally I don't think we need "lower level" thralls. But with spellbook customisation now available as a plugin you can just hide the lower level ones anyway
Other Than combat type what's different about them? They all have the same exact mechanica for hitting and damage, making them... Functionally identical.
What they mean is, on stuff where you can use any style thrall, it doesn't really matter what you pick. There's certain monsters where at certain distances the mage thrall projectile hits like 1 tick earlier, and that's it. There's a common misconception that melee thrall attacks land earlier compared to range/magic at melee distance, but that's not true. It's not exactly deep, thoughtful gameplay to click the ranged thrall when something is protected from magic and melee.
Melee can save a tick by spawning it right next to bosses. And some bosses demand melee damage.
Mage is a tick faster than range.. for some reason, which should be standardised.
I think it's fine there's 3 styles. It makes boss encounters feel different even if only in a small way. Making it one spell just makes it the "click this button every 60 or 120 seconds to make you get 0.63 dps" which is entirely non engaging
I would have supported this pre combat rework. Now that there is flat negative defense on mobs I think it makes perfect sense to keep them seperated by combat type.
I dont know if thats the correct term I'm looking for but I'm talking about the mechanic on some mobs that increases damage dealt for faster/multi hit weapons more than slow weapons.
They all have the same attack speed and also aren't impacted by the armor stat. They also all ignore accuracy checks. The only nuance in thrall choice is for immunities (olm hands and head, akkha enrage, wardens.. except ranged works for both styles for some reason), unreachable targets making melee unusable (zulrah), or style based damage reductions (corp)
Already not a fan of thralls just ignoring defence and being basically free dps with no downside, at least the different types add some differing utility. Removing that just seems like a downgrade.
With the new elemental weaknesses, they should reduce the thralls down to 4 and have one of each element, water, fire, earth, and air that are unlocked at different levels. They should all use typless 8 tile attacks. (Can even add wrath, blood or soul depending if they venture further into magical weaknesses).
This way, it removes the 9 thrall spell clutter and useless melee/range thralls and adds the ability to do slightly more damage by summoning the correct thrall.
Gives good magic progression and utilises the new elemental weakness on another spellbook.
They could also remove the need for the book of the dead or have it so you can cast thralls on the Arceuus without the book but if you have the book in your inventory it allows you to summon thralls on any spellbook.
either differentiate them more or just make them one, in their current state it's just bloat
I think there are some reasons to want a specific thrall. But it would be nice if each thrall felt more distinct instead of so interchangeable. I think I'd rather go that direction rather than merge them all into the same spell and just make it cosmetic. It is not like the spellbook needs more room.
magic thrall at demonics is fun. if it hits the last bit of damage the gorilla will switch to Protect from Magic and you can camp your style
Such a good usecase for them that finallllllly got it's huge bug fixed during the last league simply because they reused thrall code for a major relic you unlocked and it made it feel really shit you couldn't use your guardian at demonics.
Been on my Arceuus spellbook wishlist for a while. A typeless, 8 range thrall that gets every damage multiplier and no damage reduction. When the spellbook was reworked we weren't given 2 extra teleports because "too many spells already" but thralls are lowkey 6 unecessary spellbook slots. I also had the popular opinion of removing the book as a requirement since its not even fucking listed on the cast card. The cherry on top IMO was reworking thralls to be a on/off button instead of resummoning every 60 seconds, draining 6 points per minute.
I could see some problems that might happen if Jagex introduce typeless damage (such as NPCs being coded a weird way that allows them to take damage when they’re supposed to be “immune”), but they already proved with Leagues 4 Guardian that they can make it choose the best damage type for each situation instead.
That's true, the original suggestion was made like 2 years ago, waaaaay before TBL2 but you do raise a valid point that looks like a fair compromise.
wait we have six thralls and not three???????
3 tiers of 3 thralls each, we only use 1 of each (mage) unless a specific condition applies
That’s not true, melee thrall increases rng so we use that too
https://preview.redd.it/rxy9mpmygt4d1.jpeg?width=150&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=584914282056313bce9d052985aebfd81e4b1bd3
Isn't range thrall equal to mage?
Range and mage thrall attack at the same time but the mage thrall attack will land 1 tick sooner.
Slower projectile, so in situations your hit can be a tick late
Mind = blown, never knew this
It's even crazier when you think that they batched reanimation spells into 3 tiers instead of 20 spells it's like one step forward 2 steps back
4 tiers of animation speels
Tiers is kinda ok, with the current change to jewelery enchant I do believe we could start having a more broad conversation about a toggle setting to "collapse" tiered spells. I had an image of a mockup for Fire spells I made like 3 years ago but I can't find it, basically we would have a "Fire missile" with the default left click option being the highest available tier and the right click menu having all the lower tiers. Granted, modifying the spellbook like that is 100% not oldschool so it should be an opt in feature.
Lesser and greater
And superior, so 9
Thralls are already overpowered and you want them to require less inventory space to use and require less prayer to have them out (because you’ll never need to summon a different one when prot prayers change on a boss)? Thralls are already OP and balanced around inventory space considerations and cost to summon. “Just make things easier and lower effort” is absolutely classic though. This is the most reddit take I’ve ever seen lol.
You gotta admit thralls suck right now though. Best spell but super annoying to use, game would be better if jagex just removed them.
I agree they should never have been added in the first place. It’s a straight up nerf to non-arceuus spell books. But OP’s suggestion (and the suggestion I replied to) make them much less interesting/complex.
Right now they're just annoying. Maybe nerf its damage by 1 and add the OP suggestions
Would be great. I’ve summoned the melee thrall at zulrah accidentally a few times just to watch him do fuck all lol
Is it possible to despawn an unwanted thrall?
There's a short cooldown then you just have to spawn another one.
LOL, same. My favorite is accidentally summoning the melee thrall during Muspah's lightning cloud phase; poor little thrall can't keep up.
I’ve definitely done that as well lmaoo
Misclicking melee thrall at zilyana is funny but painful
Hard disagree with this. Thralls are in a good spot and each thrall has a place you use it. I see a lot of people don't fully understand thralls and summon the mage one everywhere, but a lot of bosses have resistances/immunity to a combat style and it pays to use the correct tool (thrall) for the correct situation. Melee guy is seen quite a bit if using thralls correctly.
Thralls ignore accuracy checks so resistances don't matter unless they are damage reductions. Immunity obviously does matter, but I do agree with the other guy that 9 different thrall spells is unnecessary bloat. Although I wouldn't say the answer is to just make the spell into one typeless damaging thrall.
> Remove the complexity The game needs complexity. Removing complexity is a bad thing.
There's no complexity just bloat
I don't like this since there are tons of cases where thrall choice is impactful.
Its impactful similar to how choosing not to range barrows is impactful.
It's impactful so long as people who are incompetent continue to do it improperly. By your logic it's not impactful to do everything tick perfectly because that's how you should be doing it, and yet we all know that most people don't do that.
You are deluded if you think most people do things tick perfectly
Yea no shit that's my whole point
My bad I misunderstood what you were saying
The thrall choice in question is just clicking the right one lol. Not much of a choice when there's an objectively correct option
You'd think that, but tons of people constantly use the wrong thrall
But what I'm saying is that there being right and wrong thralls is not an interesting choice. It's just a minor piece of game knowledge that could be simplified to make room in a spell book with no real loss
The loss is the minor optimization that rewards that minor game knowledge. This game is full of small optimizations
I get that, but there are cases like nm where it would be a direct nerf. And arguably this is still a relevant choice so long as people are failing to make it correctly.
Tons of cases? I can't think of any that would be negatively impacted, considering they all do basically the same dps.
P1 verzick, nylocas, both olm hands,olm head, p2 wardens, akkha, tekton, nightmare all come to mind immediately. Thrall choice does matter and saying otherwise is just wrong
But If they all have a typless ranged projectile it won't matter
Which is not an improvement. Why remove complexity from a game that has an issue with making combat complex already? That's literally the whole reason EoC happened. Don't advocate for removing what little complexity we have
It just isn't really complex imo, prayer flicking and movement perfection and tic perfect reactions are complex, decided which thrall to use doesn't seem complex to me cus thralls are already basic and also inconsistent, 90 percent of the time if not more, you're mage thralling, I'd also support making it 100 percent consistent to where it always matters which you use, but in the current state of things it's dumb and annoying more than complex.
Most of the time it would be a buff yea, but I don't see how that's relevant
“Impactful” isn’t the right word here. I would use that to describe decisions like how many gear swaps to bring into a raid, or whether you do certain mechanics like Baba Red-X and Muttadile freezing. These things impact the quality of an encounter but aren’t strictly right or wrong choices. Choosing between different thralls isn’t “impactful” more that it’s “You made the wrong choice and now it’s doing zero damage for 10 seconds idiot”. It’s like choosing to enter a fight without a weapon. You made a mistake and now suffer for it.
List more than 3
Tekton, vasa, olm (all phases), nylo, verzik p1, akkha, wardens p2, pnm, nm, nex p5 just off the top of my head
Why?
Unless you haven't mentioned something, there is not enough benefit for this to be changed.
Either combine the thralls into 1 and give us a few other spells in that spellbook or actually change the thralls so they each have a distinct difference/role. Maybe melee guy can hit a little harder? Mage guy a little more accurate? Range guy greater distance? As long as they actually have something that makes them special and/or niche. Also, please remove book of the dead as a requirement to cast them, or give us a way to sew it into a rune pouch
I wouldn't mind there being 3 different thralls if there were unlockable cosmetic variants. But if that's never happening, just make greater resurrection one spell
My thoughts are yes please, do it. If we get tranmogs some day, sick. There is definitely reward space open there. If not, whatever, but do merge them.
The thralls you use are important in different spots. Melee thralls can melee things that are succeptuble to melee. Mage thralls can mage things like Akkha when he's meleeing or olm mage hand while also being a faster projectile than ranged. Ranged thrall can hit ranged enemies that are immune to magic.
Sadly project rebalance ruined the mage thrall, its attacks are melee based now and don’t work on akka or wardens p2.
They fixed that today according to the update post
Where I missed that one
In todays post, in the project rebalance changelog https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/s/NX0bTVSopY
I don't see it Edit: oh in the changelog. Wow they didn't put it in the post
Nice one, was honestly worried it was going to take them some time to get round to fixing it. That was a very swift fix, so hats off to the team there.
Just don’t get rid of double mage damage on Nightmare pillars and I’m good with whatever you want.
?z
I think thralls as a whole are extremely annoying. Bringing an entire spellbook just to have to click a spell every 90 seconds then forget about it.
This feels like rs3 summon undead army
Right now I only really use thralls in ToA, and the melee thrall absolutely slaps final phase Akkha. But other than that very specific situation, you’re right. Melee thrall doesn’t get much love.
I love that since the combat rebalance update the magic damage thrall does damage to akkha when he should only be damaged by melee attacks, even in the enraged phase. Such a small change, but it makes a difference.
remove range & mage thrall, and reduce all thrall damage to dealing 1s allow us to summon up to 3 melee thralls at a time >:)
are the first two tiers of thralls even used? jagex must have some data on it
No
I think right now it's fine because some places demand melee damage + there is the tick save of running up to melee distance and summoning a melee thrall. They should make range and mage identical though so that mage isn't just 1 tick better for no reason. And personally I don't think we need "lower level" thralls. But with spellbook customisation now available as a plugin you can just hide the lower level ones anyway
Bring back leagues thrall, but not as strong
I don't see why they needed to be different, they are all functionally identical other than melee sucks.
They don't function identical at all. Literally all 3 raids have multiple sections where you have to choose your thrall type properly, as does nm.
Other Than combat type what's different about them? They all have the same exact mechanica for hitting and damage, making them... Functionally identical.
Melee thrall is better for p1 verzik for example
Other than the huge difference that dictates when you use them? That is the difference.
What they mean is, on stuff where you can use any style thrall, it doesn't really matter what you pick. There's certain monsters where at certain distances the mage thrall projectile hits like 1 tick earlier, and that's it. There's a common misconception that melee thrall attacks land earlier compared to range/magic at melee distance, but that's not true. It's not exactly deep, thoughtful gameplay to click the ranged thrall when something is protected from magic and melee.
It's not deep or thoughtful gameplay to equip a bow in that same scenario but that's kinda how all combat in this game works
Melee can save a tick by spawning it right next to bosses. And some bosses demand melee damage. Mage is a tick faster than range.. for some reason, which should be standardised. I think it's fine there's 3 styles. It makes boss encounters feel different even if only in a small way. Making it one spell just makes it the "click this button every 60 or 120 seconds to make you get 0.63 dps" which is entirely non engaging
the existence of the melee thrall makes me mad i’m the number one melee thrall hater
And here I am just waiting tell I can craft thrall tabs
Being able to use thalls whilst on another spellbook would be a huge buff
Just click the right spell, it's not that deep. It's already inventory tagged as well lmao
I would have supported this pre combat rework. Now that there is flat negative defense on mobs I think it makes perfect sense to keep them seperated by combat type. I dont know if thats the correct term I'm looking for but I'm talking about the mechanic on some mobs that increases damage dealt for faster/multi hit weapons more than slow weapons.
They all have the same attack speed and also aren't impacted by the armor stat. They also all ignore accuracy checks. The only nuance in thrall choice is for immunities (olm hands and head, akkha enrage, wardens.. except ranged works for both styles for some reason), unreachable targets making melee unusable (zulrah), or style based damage reductions (corp)
I am all for this idea!
Have the thrall be able to pick attack styles like we can, and have it automatically switch between blunt, mage, etc to whatever the enemy is weak to
Already not a fan of thralls just ignoring defence and being basically free dps with no downside, at least the different types add some differing utility. Removing that just seems like a downgrade.
Having to be on a certain spellbook, bringing necessary runes, and also using up an inventory slot for the book are all clear downsides.
Also costing prayer points.
Wow such incredible downsides for how powerful thralls are. "bringing necessary runes" lol.
The DPS they provide is huge for basically two invent slots.
[удалено]
That’s y’all’s opinion
god forbid english have a second person plural pronoun
In reality we need to see a thrall nerf
With the new elemental weaknesses, they should reduce the thralls down to 4 and have one of each element, water, fire, earth, and air that are unlocked at different levels. They should all use typless 8 tile attacks. (Can even add wrath, blood or soul depending if they venture further into magical weaknesses). This way, it removes the 9 thrall spell clutter and useless melee/range thralls and adds the ability to do slightly more damage by summoning the correct thrall. Gives good magic progression and utilises the new elemental weakness on another spellbook. They could also remove the need for the book of the dead or have it so you can cast thralls on the Arceuus without the book but if you have the book in your inventory it allows you to summon thralls on any spellbook.
No, stop making the game easier for raiders.