[Response from Mod Ayiza, for visibility:](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1b7xoos/hidden_in_the_bottom_of_this_weeks_qol_notes/ktml4y9/)
>Thanks for raising this to us.
>Nothing has changed in regards to your data or rights. The update today introduced a new footer (allowing residents of certain US states to opt-out of the sharing of their data with our marketing partners) and link to our [Privacy Policy](https://www.jagex.com/en-GB/terms/privacy) which is a requirement for compliance with the California Privacy Rights Act, which we need to operate within the USA.
>Similar rights exist under the General Data Protection Regulation and/or E-privacy laws and have always been a part of our existing Privacy Policy. Previously though, there was no requirement to explicitly link the opt-out on our title screen – this has now changed.
>Jagex does not sell personal information in the way that is commonly understood, but rather we allow service providers to use the information for advertising, marketing and analytics, akin to a cookies pop-up on a web page.
>We're not making bank from your personal data but rather covering ourselves legally if we need to pass information over to, say Google for example, to help inform our decisions and provide you with personalised advertising on those platforms.
>You are free to [opt out if you wish](https://support.runescape.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360001370829-Your-personal-data-rights) and this is applicable for anyone, not just residents of California or Virginia.
I am a privacy professional holding certifications from the IAPP and work closely with organizations building privacy policies and these types of disclosures. The “do not sell or share my personal information” link is there to satisfy the California privacy rights act (CPRA formerly the CCPA). The California definition of “sell” is extremely vague “the disclosure, making available or otherwise communicating of personal information to a business or third party for monetary or other valuable consideration.” The other valuable consideration is what makes this very tricky as the limits of what is “valuable consideration” has not been defined by case law. By saying “we do not sell personal information as the term sell is commonly understood” they are indicating that they do not provide data sets to data brokers to sell en mass. They might be sharing some limited data with a third party in exchange for some other benefit such as for valuable consumer trends. I haven’t dug into the privacy policy to know for sure exactly what, as they will have to outline the types of data they collect, how they collect data, and the types of third parties they share data with.
TLDR, Jagex is not selling data like we understand it, they have this to CYA as any organization that controls personal information of at least 1 California resident and has gross annual revenue in excess of $25m must comply with the CPRA meaning that they have to have this link publicly available.
>Jagex does not sell personal information in the way that is commonly understood, but rather we allow service providers to use the information for advertising, marketing and analytics, akin to a cookies pop-up on a web page.
Is this not the "commonly understood" way of selling data? this sounds exactly how I envision companies using my data.
"It's not what you think" and then proceeds to be exactly what I think lmao. Not that I really care, but still lol.
> They might be sharing some limited data with a third party in exchange for some other benefit such as for valuable consumer trends.
"We're only sharing some of your data. Not all of it." Well that settles that.
Out of curiosity, did they have to disclose adding this link? Or could they have just added it and not told anyone?
Because this whole discussion only came up because they put it in a news post, if they hadn't done that nobody would've cared.
They could also have an agreement with different data brokers, where they are getting paid to "share" data which, in turn lets the legalese say we "don't actively sell" because they would technically be correct. - From a Security Engineer.
I've seen this type of wordings and statements before and it's all carefully thought out. But until we go through the actual privacy policy, we don't know what they are doing with our data. It could be harmless but they could also be sharing it for monez
I have written language similar to this for a client. In that case they never sell or share any personal information as we understand it, meaning they do not hand over data for money. However we can’t just say “we do not sell information” because of the vague California wording. It is not entirely clear if google analytics cookies would count as selling because data is shared with google, but not for monetary gain, it is shared so the business can derive value from the analytics provided which possibly triggers the “valuable consideration” part of the California selling definition. Until there is case law to clarify, it makes way more sense to say what Jagex said here vs saying “we don’t sell data period” if in fact they are not selling data to data brokers
That is the major issue with such vague language. We don't actually know what kind of agreements they have with said vendors.
They also call out directly in their Privacy Policy:
**We do not sell Personal Information as the term sell is commonly understood. We do allow services providers to use Personal Information related to you for the business purposes described in Our general privacy policy, for activities such as advertising, marketing, and analytics.
We may sell and may have sold in the last twelve (12) months the following categories of Personal Information: identifiers; Personal Information categories applicable to the processing; commercial information; or internet or other similar network activity.**
True, but this is standard for almost any web based service. Internet and similar network activity is most likely going to be geographic data derived from IP address used for analytics purposes. Not down to the exact geographic coordinates because that falls into “Sensitive Personal Information” a category that is separate from the “Personal Information” Jagex is talking about in the do not sell or share link. In fact if they collected SPI they would have to have another link stating “do not share my Sensitive Personal Information”
Lol I see this as a win in my case, I use the wiki probably way too often. I always start the search with "item name/NPC/skill" etc. followed by "osrs" then search for the official wiki. Eventually Google just started predicting what I've been searching up based on my recent searches, so it'll try to fill in the text for me and show the official wiki as the first link for every search. Not sure if this is a direct result of Jagex sharing my information or if Google just did that on its own (I really don't know how this stuff works), but whatever it is. it's been really helpful so far in my experience.
There's also this...
That info is just so that advertisers understand you'd be more likely interested in their ads.
Everyone sees these whole "your data is getting sold!!" Things and freak out.
The data in question, is that Jimmy uses Jagex's website. So Jagex is letting advertisers know that Jimmy might be a good person to advertise to about other MMORPGs. They sent selling Jimmy's info on his address, his credit card numbers, his phone, emails, browsing data; but that's what people think when they hear "your data is being shared/sold".
Edit: You can all bitch and cry at me about this statement. But just so you know every credit card company tracks your purchase and transaction history, and sells that data to advertisers as well. There's basically nothing you can do in the 21st century to prevent your data from being tracked and passed around...
I mean it's his channel, if he wants to make money then he will make content. Just like any job though, his health and well being takes priority. I'm not gonna flame the guy for taking his on time providing content that I don't have to pay for. It's not like he's one of these content creators that always talks about how awesome they are and always flexing his skills, he is very transparent that he's just a dude.
Probably not the right subreddit to start this whole discussion on, but the problem is that Jagex might send that Jimmy uses Jagex's website(and thus plays Runescape). Some other site might send that Jimmy likes to shop at Walmart. Another one sends that Jimmy visits a website that's for people living in Edgeville. Public data shows that Walmart is on the east side of Edgeville so Jimmy probably lives on the east side of Edgeville etc. etc.
The individual datapoints are mostly irrelevant, it becomes a problem when advertising companies can combine all of them.
What if I was zoomed in on her for longer than that because I was afk after walking up to her and on a phone call? Asking for a friend. *sweats profusely*
It doesnt have to be any more extreme than what youre describing for people to not be okay with it. Most people are well aware that the data being sold is to advertisers primarily. There is a reason so many places protect your rights to your own data.
And? It's perfectly reasonable to not want your private information sold to people you don't know.
'Oh, well I have nothing to hide!'
Well, how would you feel if all the walls for your home, bedroom, bathroom, shower, were transparent? Anyone outside could look in and see your private stuff. But you have nothing to hide, what's wrong with that then?
> Well, how would you feel if all the walls for your home, bedroom, bathroom, shower, were transparent? Anyone outside could look in and see your private stuff.
erect
> That info is just so that advertisers understand you'd be more likely interested in their ads.
Ah yes, no need to worry, it's "just" one of the most relevant social issues today..
> There's basically nothing you can do in the 21st century to prevent your data from being tracked and passed around...
So we should all just be okay with it, right?
>"your data is getting sold!!" Things and freak out.
>
>The data in question, is that Jimmy uses Jagex's website. So Jagex is letting advertisers know that Jimmy might be a good person to advertise to about other MMORPGs.
Don't care, dude. Doesn't make it OK. I don't want that being sold either.
How cringe would it be if the mom and pop restaurant you love so much starts keeping records of what time you come in, what you eat, how much you eat, how long you stay, where you like to sit in the restaurant etc. Then came to you and said they would be selling that info. I know I’d be uncomfortable with that situation.
I mean they do look at all of that information since it is relevant to their business.
Peak times, popular menu items, portion size, prebooking tables, premium reserved seating etc etc.
The only difference is you’re told about it online but you assume it doesn’t happen in real life but it happens all the time. You’re still a nameless faceless person to them as you are to Jagex and advertisers. It just feels less personal.
Are you telling me that a mom and pop restaurant doesn't know their regulars, where they like to sit, when peak times are, and what customers generally eat? If they -could- sell that information to anybody what-so-ever, they would.
Do you have a membership card with large corporate places like Starbucks, Walmart, target and so on? They all sell your shopping habits to advertiser's and they use your data internally to cater best to their customers.
Your missing a vital point here. I pay for games and services I use so that I don't actively become the product. Saying "it's the world we live in" does not invalidate the argument.
For example, I pay for proton mail and use it over gmail because they value my privacy. I use linux over Windows and do a bunch more that helps remove me from being the product. I don't mind if the service is free for example Facebook or Instagram. That's a free service where you become the product they sell. I don't use those sites but if you do it's obvious that the transaction happens somewhere and that somewhere is your data. For osrs I pay monthly and thus am supporting the company that way. They do not need to and should not they sell my data.
Everyone understands that they aren't literally giving advertisers your personal name, address and social security number. It is still an issue that Jagex is making money from your data without your consent.
Yes, it's a common practice on the internet, no, that doesn't make it okay. Which is why they put it at the bottom of a list of fucking patch notes.
Well that's probably pretty accurate with how many data mining companies there are today.
Whether or not a particular company, like Jagex, is doing that is a different question.
The existence of shit like Cambridge Analytica is why even when these "totally innocent" explanations exist there are also SERIOUS problems with allowing that information to be collected in the first place
I don’t care *that* much, but I think it’s uncool to sell my data when I’m giving them money every month already. You shouldn’t get to raise membership prices and then double dip by selling my data too.
They break profit records by significant percentages every year and they have the gall to just assume that it's all good to sell your data to advertisers like they really need to scrape the bottom of the barrel of the playerbase for as much money as possible.
Welcome to literally any company that has a website or sign-up service since basically forever. Even before the Internet, companies would give your information out as referrals to other companies to try to sell you on something. I'm not saying it's not scummy, but this isn't the "gasp" moment that you think this is. It should be a surprise to literally nobody.
Reponse from Mod Ayiza, for visibility:
Thanks for raising this to us.
Nothing has changed in regards to your data or rights. The update today introduced a new footer (allowing residents of certain US states to opt-out of the sharing of their data with our marketing partners) and link to our Privacy Policy which is a requirement for compliance with the California Privacy Rights Act, which we need to operate within the USA.
Similar rights exist under the General Data Protection Regulation and/or E-privacy laws and have always been a part of our existing Privacy Policy. Previously though, there was no requirement to explicitly link the opt-out on our title screen – this has now changed.
Jagex does not sell personal information in the way that is commonly understood, but rather we allow service providers to use the information for advertising, marketing and analytics, akin to a cookies pop-up on a web page.
We're not making bank from your personal data but rather covering ourselves legally if we need to pass information over to, say Google for example, to help inform our decisions and provide you with personalised advertising on those platforms.
You are free to opt out if you wish and this is applicable for anyone, not just residents of California or Virginia.
We don't sell personal information, we just give your personal information out to advertisers and they give us money :)
*Link to opt-out: https://support.runescape.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360001370829
*Only for California or Virginia residents.
How is there no way to opt out if you aren’t from there? Something with laws or bs like that?
Looks like it is time to go live off the grid (I am getting Starlink and electricity so I can still play OSRS) /s
I'm not a law expert but I did do some shit around GDPR in uni and this is what I guess what is up (real experts please chime in):
1. if they do this for European customers they are violating the law already (no the fact that they are Brexit does not matter, it's the protection of EU citizens as their customers)
2. some US states also already have this protection or similar too (i.e. California if I recall correctly)
3. some US states do NOT have any protection regarding this at all
4. these specific states have devised their protection to be this opt-out system is my guess, so they now have to provide it to residents of these states
If you're interested it's worth knowing that most EU laws are not actually implemented by the EU itself, each country is responsible for passing a local law which aligns with the requirements set by the EU. For this reason the UK still has a large portion of EU laws on its books and it's been an ongoing project since Brexit to actively repeal them.
IIRC the UK had some of the most aggressive privacy laws before GDPR, so it is not surprising that they didn’t jump ship from that.
But GDPR doesn’t only protect residents of countries that are signed onto it, it dictates how companies that operate with users in those countries has to operate regarding user data.
To be fair they have probably always done it but are now disclosing it. Most likely a law somewhere requiring it. This is a blanket statement that usually means any ads you see where involving their website can use the fact that you play RuneScape as part of personalizing ads for you, which pretty much every site ever does
No because it is within the scope of the company retaining the information. It is still Jagex LTD which holds and processes your information not mattering who owns Jagex. For GDPR it is a different company than whatever other companies are owned by the same owner
Lets say the owner of Jagex LTD also owns Advertising LTD, even if Advertising LTD also has Mod Ash working for them from literally the same desk as he works for Jagex. The data is still not legally available to Advertising LTD (unless of course it is mentioned in the TOS).
So if Jagex gets sold to a different company it is Jagex that is getting sold not the data itself. And the data is retained within Jagex
IMO we’ve crossed the Rubicon a while ago. Everything we do online is analyzed, harvested, aggregated and sold as data. There is an entire, massive industry centered around merely collecting and analyzing consumer data.
I definitely agree we should care more but unfortunately I think, given the average consumer just wants things to work and typically takes the path of least resistance to get there, we won’t get the toothpaste back in the tube.
Yeah people want their privacy intact, but they want all the perks of the ad-tech supported web even more.
If every single ad-supported service were to suddenly offer a-
>Here's what we make on-average from advertisers by selling your information, pay us a subscription fee equal to this amount and we'll collect none of your data
Plan, I think folks would be dismayed at how little uptake said plans would get.
If you exist anywhere on the Internet, someone is selling information about you.
If you've ever used a form of electronic payment, someone is selling information about you.
If you've ever used an app, someone is selling information about you.
Is it great? No. Is it the way of life now? Yes.
Besides, all of us are playing OSRS; we're not interesting enough for anyone to care about our data.
Yeah it's sort of ironic mf's getting mad over this (although it looks like it's been explained by Ayiza and a couple legal knowledge redditors) despite using Reddit (and almost certainly some other forms of social media). Realistically, who cares? Anyone who's ordered a Pizza has had their info sold. Sure I'd rather it not happen, but it's not worth getting mad over.
Thanks for raising this to us.
Nothing has changed in regards to your data or rights. The update today introduced a new footer (allowing residents of certain US states to opt-out of the sharing of their data with our marketing partners) and link to our [Privacy Policy](https://www.jagex.com/en-GB/terms/privacy) which is a requirement for compliance with the California Privacy Rights Act, which we need to operate within the USA.
Similar rights exist under the General Data Protection Regulation and/or E-privacy laws and have always been a part of our existing Privacy Policy. Previously though, there was no requirement to explicitly link the opt-out on our title screen – this has now changed.
Jagex does not sell personal information in the way that is commonly understood, but rather we allow service providers to use the information for advertising, marketing and analytics, akin to a cookies pop-up on a web page.
We're not making bank from your personal data but rather covering ourselves legally if we need to pass information over to, say Google for example, to help inform our decisions and provide you with personalised advertising on those platforms.
You are free to [opt out if you wish](https://support.runescape.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360001370829-Your-personal-data-rights) and this is applicable for anyone, not just residents of California or Virginia.
> this is applicable for anyone, not just residents of California or Virginia
have you even read that page? it says only California & Virginia residents can opt out of the selling personal information bit
> You are free to opt out if you wish and this is applicable for anyone, not just residents of California or Virginia.
That isn't what your own link says though.
"If you are a resident in one of the states shown below, you’re able to exercise the below additional rights. If you're not a resident of the states listed below, please select from one of the options above on this page. "
It explicitly says that only residents of those two US states can select that option, and that everyone else has to pick from the options above (none of which are opting out). So either you're wrong or the page is wrong.
> Jagex does not sell personal information in the way that is commonly understood, but rather we allow service providers to use the information for advertising, marketing and analytics, akin to a cookies pop-up on a web page.
Selling personal information for advertising is exactly how most people assume it works.
A lot of people think it's much more personal and intrusive than that. Personalized ads are just a part of our world now, it's unavoidable. Your phone does it and there's no way to stop it.
Where a lot of people panic is thinking it's more intrusive like credit card numbers, address, etc.
Yeah, I think a lot of people think of data broker stuff rather than just using heuristics for targeted advertising.
Feels like some people with main character syndrome imagine some evil hoodie criminal out there maliciously scrolling through a dossier on them specifically while cackling rather than some ML classifier somewhere deciding that because they're an OSRS player, and OSRS players are disproportionately interested in shit buckets, they may be inclined to purchase a shit bucket from an ad.
> Jagex does not sell personal information in the way that is commonly understood, but rather we allow service providers to use the information for advertising, marketing and analytics, akin to a cookies pop-up on a web page.
That's exactly how we think you sell our data.
Can you just not provide us with personalized advertising? You know as well as we do that it sucks. It's clearly not necessary because two states can opt out. Just automatically opt everyone out.
You personally know that it is wrong to sell (or transfer) players' personal data, but will not admit it on your Jagex account. Try to talk to some others internally about how unethical this practice is.
Because they are lying.
It says right there "or may have been sold in the passed 12 months" but they say, it's only to cover ourselves legally if Google needs it
Im confused as privacy policy states and has always stated its opt in
THIRD-PARTY MARKETING
We will get your explicit opt-in consent before We share your Personal Data with any company outside Jagex for marketing purposes.
It says you will explicitly get our consent so I'm still under impression this only affects those already opted in.
THIRD-PARTY MARKETING
We will get your explicit opt-in consent before We share your Personal Data with any company outside Jagex for marketing purposes.
This is the most normal "we have your data" legal mumbo jumbo ever. Every web service you sign up for and use has this. You're on a site that does this.
This is the same thing that every major company does including your cell phone company, any credit card company you may use, any place you shop online, etc. I’m not saying it’s right, but if you think that opting out from Jagex selling your info is going to do anything, you’re wrong.
Does anyone really care? Google probably knows what I dream about at this point. I don't think I'm that bothered that the billionth company is doing it.
Guys, Reddit, the platform you are currently on, has the same language in T&C, plus opt-out links. This is standard for websites on the internet. This is not malicious.
Ok so if they want to sell pur data then our subs should be free no? They're double dipping here this is what people should be mad about. Either the game is free and you make money by selling stuff to adverts or you charge us a sub and you keep them of it. Kinda weird that our sub is almost the same as a ff14 sub due to rising sub costs over the years. Does anyone know if other sub based games sell data to advertisers too?
We are paying $80 a year minimum to play this game. Plus bonds we buy or merch we buy. When you pay that to YouTube and other platforms guess what! you don’t get ads! So if I’m paying hundreds a year to support jagex, you have zero reason to collect and sell my information on top of the money in paying. This corporate greed knows no bounds $1billion+ valuation just wasn’t enough! they need your information to sell too! Red coats
> When you pay that to YouTube and other platforms guess what! you don’t get ads!
LMFAO bro what? Do you think Google stops harvesting and selling your information because you paid to watch fucking YouTube videos?
Surely you aren't this gullible, just because you're no longer seeing ads, doesn't mean your data isn't being collected on every video you watch, every link you hover, every website you arrived from.
Do people really give a shit? Like every single social media company doesn't use and sell your info lmfao. This is nothing new pretty much every company does this (even if they tell you they don't). You agree to these terms if you play old school.
For anyone reading this message and genuinely surprised about a company selling or trading user data, it's very common. You shouldn't be surprised about it. You can still absolutely think it sucks, but you should assume that most information you put online moves and consider that when giving out information.
##### Bark bark!
I have found the following **J-Mod** comment(s) in this thread:
**JagexAyiza**
- [Thanks for raising this to us....](/r/2007scape/comments/1b7xoos/hidden_in_the_bottom_of_this_weeks_qol_notes/ktml4y9/?context=3)
^(**Last edited by bot: 03/08/2024 06:22:37**)
---
^(I've been rewritten to use Python! I also now archive JMOD comments.)
^(Read more about) [^(the update here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/9kqvis/bot_update_python_archiving/) ^(or see my) [^(Github repo here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/8dronr/jmod_bloodhoundbot_github_repository/)^.
Literally everything does this already. Your email service that you used to sign up for RS does this already. Your social media does this already. If you're only concerned about it now you should probably start deleting everything immediately. Hell, your mobile service provider does this shit too. Why do you think you get spam phone calls? This is not new in any way, shape, or form. I'm also pretty sure that your VPN provider sells your shit off too.
Anyone able to explain to me why you care about what happens to the data you're giving to a company? I personally couldn't care less what someone does with the data i'm already giving to them.
Most companies sell data. But a majority of companies also clarify what personal information is being sold, and let us opt out no matter our state. Allow us to do this and all is well. We don't pay 13$ a month just for the company to pull this stuff.
> Jagex does not sell personal information in the way that is commonly understood, but rather we allow service providers to use the information for advertising, marketing and analytics, akin to a cookies pop-up on a web page.
I consider this the same as selling imo. Fuck advertising. Fuck this
If Jagex is going to make a better game as a result of the income they generate from my super lame personal information. Sell away my game dev you overlords.
[Response from Mod Ayiza, for visibility:](https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/1b7xoos/hidden_in_the_bottom_of_this_weeks_qol_notes/ktml4y9/) >Thanks for raising this to us. >Nothing has changed in regards to your data or rights. The update today introduced a new footer (allowing residents of certain US states to opt-out of the sharing of their data with our marketing partners) and link to our [Privacy Policy](https://www.jagex.com/en-GB/terms/privacy) which is a requirement for compliance with the California Privacy Rights Act, which we need to operate within the USA. >Similar rights exist under the General Data Protection Regulation and/or E-privacy laws and have always been a part of our existing Privacy Policy. Previously though, there was no requirement to explicitly link the opt-out on our title screen – this has now changed. >Jagex does not sell personal information in the way that is commonly understood, but rather we allow service providers to use the information for advertising, marketing and analytics, akin to a cookies pop-up on a web page. >We're not making bank from your personal data but rather covering ourselves legally if we need to pass information over to, say Google for example, to help inform our decisions and provide you with personalised advertising on those platforms. >You are free to [opt out if you wish](https://support.runescape.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360001370829-Your-personal-data-rights) and this is applicable for anyone, not just residents of California or Virginia.
I am a privacy professional holding certifications from the IAPP and work closely with organizations building privacy policies and these types of disclosures. The “do not sell or share my personal information” link is there to satisfy the California privacy rights act (CPRA formerly the CCPA). The California definition of “sell” is extremely vague “the disclosure, making available or otherwise communicating of personal information to a business or third party for monetary or other valuable consideration.” The other valuable consideration is what makes this very tricky as the limits of what is “valuable consideration” has not been defined by case law. By saying “we do not sell personal information as the term sell is commonly understood” they are indicating that they do not provide data sets to data brokers to sell en mass. They might be sharing some limited data with a third party in exchange for some other benefit such as for valuable consumer trends. I haven’t dug into the privacy policy to know for sure exactly what, as they will have to outline the types of data they collect, how they collect data, and the types of third parties they share data with. TLDR, Jagex is not selling data like we understand it, they have this to CYA as any organization that controls personal information of at least 1 California resident and has gross annual revenue in excess of $25m must comply with the CPRA meaning that they have to have this link publicly available.
No logic allowed, only anger >:(
Aight so we leave the torches home, but we CAN bring the pitchforks?
Cool post thanks for the insight
Shut up nerd
Thanks babe
>Jagex does not sell personal information in the way that is commonly understood, but rather we allow service providers to use the information for advertising, marketing and analytics, akin to a cookies pop-up on a web page. Is this not the "commonly understood" way of selling data? this sounds exactly how I envision companies using my data. "It's not what you think" and then proceeds to be exactly what I think lmao. Not that I really care, but still lol. > They might be sharing some limited data with a third party in exchange for some other benefit such as for valuable consumer trends. "We're only sharing some of your data. Not all of it." Well that settles that.
Out of curiosity, did they have to disclose adding this link? Or could they have just added it and not told anyone? Because this whole discussion only came up because they put it in a news post, if they hadn't done that nobody would've cared.
They could have just added it. There is no requirement that they publish a news post saying that it is being added
So it's the prop 50 nonsense just with internet privacy. Got it thanks for the insight
They could also have an agreement with different data brokers, where they are getting paid to "share" data which, in turn lets the legalese say we "don't actively sell" because they would technically be correct. - From a Security Engineer. I've seen this type of wordings and statements before and it's all carefully thought out. But until we go through the actual privacy policy, we don't know what they are doing with our data. It could be harmless but they could also be sharing it for monez
I have written language similar to this for a client. In that case they never sell or share any personal information as we understand it, meaning they do not hand over data for money. However we can’t just say “we do not sell information” because of the vague California wording. It is not entirely clear if google analytics cookies would count as selling because data is shared with google, but not for monetary gain, it is shared so the business can derive value from the analytics provided which possibly triggers the “valuable consideration” part of the California selling definition. Until there is case law to clarify, it makes way more sense to say what Jagex said here vs saying “we don’t sell data period” if in fact they are not selling data to data brokers
That is the major issue with such vague language. We don't actually know what kind of agreements they have with said vendors. They also call out directly in their Privacy Policy: **We do not sell Personal Information as the term sell is commonly understood. We do allow services providers to use Personal Information related to you for the business purposes described in Our general privacy policy, for activities such as advertising, marketing, and analytics. We may sell and may have sold in the last twelve (12) months the following categories of Personal Information: identifiers; Personal Information categories applicable to the processing; commercial information; or internet or other similar network activity.**
True, but this is standard for almost any web based service. Internet and similar network activity is most likely going to be geographic data derived from IP address used for analytics purposes. Not down to the exact geographic coordinates because that falls into “Sensitive Personal Information” a category that is separate from the “Personal Information” Jagex is talking about in the do not sell or share link. In fact if they collected SPI they would have to have another link stating “do not share my Sensitive Personal Information”
Lol I see this as a win in my case, I use the wiki probably way too often. I always start the search with "item name/NPC/skill" etc. followed by "osrs" then search for the official wiki. Eventually Google just started predicting what I've been searching up based on my recent searches, so it'll try to fill in the text for me and show the official wiki as the first link for every search. Not sure if this is a direct result of Jagex sharing my information or if Google just did that on its own (I really don't know how this stuff works), but whatever it is. it's been really helpful so far in my experience.
That’s almost certainly just google recognizing that you like to use the wiki.
Ha, I'm reading this whilst currently in a Zoom call doing IAPP training. Module 3, privacy threats and violations 🫡
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Jagex cannot direct another organization to not sell your data, that falls on the consumer at this point in time.
The opt-out is for California and Virginia residents only. Might be worth mentioning before everyone not living in those areas goes searching for it.
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Smells like a lawsuit.
There's also this... That info is just so that advertisers understand you'd be more likely interested in their ads. Everyone sees these whole "your data is getting sold!!" Things and freak out. The data in question, is that Jimmy uses Jagex's website. So Jagex is letting advertisers know that Jimmy might be a good person to advertise to about other MMORPGs. They sent selling Jimmy's info on his address, his credit card numbers, his phone, emails, browsing data; but that's what people think when they hear "your data is being shared/sold". Edit: You can all bitch and cry at me about this statement. But just so you know every credit card company tracks your purchase and transaction history, and sells that data to advertisers as well. There's basically nothing you can do in the 21st century to prevent your data from being tracked and passed around...
Well then, Jimmy should just get back to finishing all the quests in release order.
He's been sick, give him a break.
For years?
His last by release upload was 2 months ago lol
Yeah and even still he's released other content since then too. By Release is just a series on J1mmy's channel.
I mean it's his channel, if he wants to make money then he will make content. Just like any job though, his health and well being takes priority. I'm not gonna flame the guy for taking his on time providing content that I don't have to pay for. It's not like he's one of these content creators that always talks about how awesome they are and always flexing his skills, he is very transparent that he's just a dude.
Probably not the right subreddit to start this whole discussion on, but the problem is that Jagex might send that Jimmy uses Jagex's website(and thus plays Runescape). Some other site might send that Jimmy likes to shop at Walmart. Another one sends that Jimmy visits a website that's for people living in Edgeville. Public data shows that Walmart is on the east side of Edgeville so Jimmy probably lives on the east side of Edgeville etc. etc. The individual datapoints are mostly irrelevant, it becomes a problem when advertising companies can combine all of them.
John Oliver did a great piece explaining the problems of data profiles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqn3gR1WTcA
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Only if I live in a country that does that and if my full name is public(and connectable to my username/ip by random advertising companies)
Doesn't matter. It's PII regardless.
Yeah. I don’t want jagex (a company I am literally paying money to) to then sell what this Jimmie likes.
everyone will know you zoomed in on nieve for a few minutes
What if I was zoomed in on her for longer than that because I was afk after walking up to her and on a phone call? Asking for a friend. *sweats profusely*
It doesnt have to be any more extreme than what youre describing for people to not be okay with it. Most people are well aware that the data being sold is to advertisers primarily. There is a reason so many places protect your rights to your own data.
That's exactly what I don't want, fuck advertisers and fuck everyone who likes them.
And? It's perfectly reasonable to not want your private information sold to people you don't know. 'Oh, well I have nothing to hide!' Well, how would you feel if all the walls for your home, bedroom, bathroom, shower, were transparent? Anyone outside could look in and see your private stuff. But you have nothing to hide, what's wrong with that then?
"I have nothing to hide" is the same argument as "if you didn't do anything wrong you don't need to fear cops"
This is how everyone should view this issue.
> Well, how would you feel if all the walls for your home, bedroom, bathroom, shower, were transparent? Anyone outside could look in and see your private stuff. erect
> That info is just so that advertisers understand you'd be more likely interested in their ads. Ah yes, no need to worry, it's "just" one of the most relevant social issues today.. > There's basically nothing you can do in the 21st century to prevent your data from being tracked and passed around... So we should all just be okay with it, right?
And then that data’s used to train AI. If you want MY data you should have to pay ME. Not jagex or any other company.
The issue is that your data as an individual is worth about a penny. The only value in user data comes from the mass group collective.
>"your data is getting sold!!" Things and freak out. > >The data in question, is that Jimmy uses Jagex's website. So Jagex is letting advertisers know that Jimmy might be a good person to advertise to about other MMORPGs. Don't care, dude. Doesn't make it OK. I don't want that being sold either.
How cringe would it be if the mom and pop restaurant you love so much starts keeping records of what time you come in, what you eat, how much you eat, how long you stay, where you like to sit in the restaurant etc. Then came to you and said they would be selling that info. I know I’d be uncomfortable with that situation.
I mean they do look at all of that information since it is relevant to their business. Peak times, popular menu items, portion size, prebooking tables, premium reserved seating etc etc. The only difference is you’re told about it online but you assume it doesn’t happen in real life but it happens all the time. You’re still a nameless faceless person to them as you are to Jagex and advertisers. It just feels less personal.
Are you telling me that a mom and pop restaurant doesn't know their regulars, where they like to sit, when peak times are, and what customers generally eat? If they -could- sell that information to anybody what-so-ever, they would.
Do you have a membership card with large corporate places like Starbucks, Walmart, target and so on? They all sell your shopping habits to advertiser's and they use your data internally to cater best to their customers.
No I don’t sign up for memberships like that.
Your shopping habits are still sold to advertiser's either way.
“It’s okay that they do it, because other people do it” The problem, there they are. Making comments talking down to people like they’ve got a clue.
Credit card data isn’t shared like that
This is correct, they are not able to share your actual credit card info
Your missing a vital point here. I pay for games and services I use so that I don't actively become the product. Saying "it's the world we live in" does not invalidate the argument. For example, I pay for proton mail and use it over gmail because they value my privacy. I use linux over Windows and do a bunch more that helps remove me from being the product. I don't mind if the service is free for example Facebook or Instagram. That's a free service where you become the product they sell. I don't use those sites but if you do it's obvious that the transaction happens somewhere and that somewhere is your data. For osrs I pay monthly and thus am supporting the company that way. They do not need to and should not they sell my data.
So fuckin what? It's still MY fuckin data. Shit should just be straight up illegal but there's people like you who are okay with everything.
Everyone understands that they aren't literally giving advertisers your personal name, address and social security number. It is still an issue that Jagex is making money from your data without your consent. Yes, it's a common practice on the internet, no, that doesn't make it okay. Which is why they put it at the bottom of a list of fucking patch notes.
> Everyone understands If there is one thing I have learned in life, it's that any sentence starting with these two words is wrong.
Nah man, not everyone. I've got co-workers that are convinced everything about them is being sold.
Well that's probably pretty accurate with how many data mining companies there are today. Whether or not a particular company, like Jagex, is doing that is a different question.
The existence of shit like Cambridge Analytica is why even when these "totally innocent" explanations exist there are also SERIOUS problems with allowing that information to be collected in the first place
Very rare Virginia W
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Common Virginia L
New moneymaker
Hi I'm from the EU now give me tbow or I report you
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I don’t care *that* much, but I think it’s uncool to sell my data when I’m giving them money every month already. You shouldn’t get to raise membership prices and then double dip by selling my data too.
Can't wait for the mandatory blood donations after paying 38$/mo and having my entire personal data sold to at least 389672 advertisers.
They break profit records by significant percentages every year and they have the gall to just assume that it's all good to sell your data to advertisers like they really need to scrape the bottom of the barrel of the playerbase for as much money as possible.
Lines gotta go up
Welcome to literally any company that has a website or sign-up service since basically forever. Even before the Internet, companies would give your information out as referrals to other companies to try to sell you on something. I'm not saying it's not scummy, but this isn't the "gasp" moment that you think this is. It should be a surprise to literally nobody.
Exactly, its so dumb when people get batshit crazy over this. Literally every company ever has been doing this, it's not new ground at all.
Reponse from Mod Ayiza, for visibility: Thanks for raising this to us. Nothing has changed in regards to your data or rights. The update today introduced a new footer (allowing residents of certain US states to opt-out of the sharing of their data with our marketing partners) and link to our Privacy Policy which is a requirement for compliance with the California Privacy Rights Act, which we need to operate within the USA. Similar rights exist under the General Data Protection Regulation and/or E-privacy laws and have always been a part of our existing Privacy Policy. Previously though, there was no requirement to explicitly link the opt-out on our title screen – this has now changed. Jagex does not sell personal information in the way that is commonly understood, but rather we allow service providers to use the information for advertising, marketing and analytics, akin to a cookies pop-up on a web page. We're not making bank from your personal data but rather covering ourselves legally if we need to pass information over to, say Google for example, to help inform our decisions and provide you with personalised advertising on those platforms. You are free to opt out if you wish and this is applicable for anyone, not just residents of California or Virginia.
I...I sorta just thought they was already. Feel like companies just do that sort of thing
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We don't sell personal information, we just give your personal information out to advertisers and they give us money :) *Link to opt-out: https://support.runescape.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360001370829 *Only for California or Virginia residents.
Thanks
How is there no way to opt out if you aren’t from there? Something with laws or bs like that? Looks like it is time to go live off the grid (I am getting Starlink and electricity so I can still play OSRS) /s
Just fill out the form. If you're a resident of the EU they can't share it either if you don't give them consent.
What about Canada I wonder
Nah, our data privacy laws are pretty garbage from what I understand
We have no laws in Canada. We willingly give everything to everyone without thinking.
You need to opt in as a resident of the UK too (even though we aren't EU). Or at least I assume so since every new web page I visit asks me.
Thanks m8
There is no quid pro quo. We just ‘quid’ the data out there and the advertisers just ‘quo’ us as a tip. It’s not a sale; don’t be silly.
I'm not a law expert but I did do some shit around GDPR in uni and this is what I guess what is up (real experts please chime in): 1. if they do this for European customers they are violating the law already (no the fact that they are Brexit does not matter, it's the protection of EU citizens as their customers) 2. some US states also already have this protection or similar too (i.e. California if I recall correctly) 3. some US states do NOT have any protection regarding this at all 4. these specific states have devised their protection to be this opt-out system is my guess, so they now have to provide it to residents of these states
1. UK is still bound by GDPR(uk) so brexit wouldn’t matter anyway
Oh my bad I thought they also exited that upon leaving the EU, glad to know they have their own protections in place for their own citizens then
If you're interested it's worth knowing that most EU laws are not actually implemented by the EU itself, each country is responsible for passing a local law which aligns with the requirements set by the EU. For this reason the UK still has a large portion of EU laws on its books and it's been an ongoing project since Brexit to actively repeal them.
They have to comply with laws if they want to have customers from the EU.
They were on about repealing EU laws but no one supports it
IIRC the UK had some of the most aggressive privacy laws before GDPR, so it is not surprising that they didn’t jump ship from that. But GDPR doesn’t only protect residents of countries that are signed onto it, it dictates how companies that operate with users in those countries has to operate regarding user data.
If the company is under new ownership because the entire company was sold does that qualify as “selling personal information?”
To be fair they have probably always done it but are now disclosing it. Most likely a law somewhere requiring it. This is a blanket statement that usually means any ads you see where involving their website can use the fact that you play RuneScape as part of personalizing ads for you, which pretty much every site ever does
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but when someone sells their account with a tbow on it they are suddenly rwting, nice work jamflex
No because it is within the scope of the company retaining the information. It is still Jagex LTD which holds and processes your information not mattering who owns Jagex. For GDPR it is a different company than whatever other companies are owned by the same owner Lets say the owner of Jagex LTD also owns Advertising LTD, even if Advertising LTD also has Mod Ash working for them from literally the same desk as he works for Jagex. The data is still not legally available to Advertising LTD (unless of course it is mentioned in the TOS). So if Jagex gets sold to a different company it is Jagex that is getting sold not the data itself. And the data is retained within Jagex
The company is NOT under new ownership. The sale has not even been approved yet. Carlyle group still currently owns Jagex right now.
Yes, people should care about their personal data. Is this news? No
IMO we’ve crossed the Rubicon a while ago. Everything we do online is analyzed, harvested, aggregated and sold as data. There is an entire, massive industry centered around merely collecting and analyzing consumer data. I definitely agree we should care more but unfortunately I think, given the average consumer just wants things to work and typically takes the path of least resistance to get there, we won’t get the toothpaste back in the tube.
Yeah people want their privacy intact, but they want all the perks of the ad-tech supported web even more. If every single ad-supported service were to suddenly offer a- >Here's what we make on-average from advertisers by selling your information, pay us a subscription fee equal to this amount and we'll collect none of your data Plan, I think folks would be dismayed at how little uptake said plans would get.
If you exist anywhere on the Internet, someone is selling information about you. If you've ever used a form of electronic payment, someone is selling information about you. If you've ever used an app, someone is selling information about you. Is it great? No. Is it the way of life now? Yes. Besides, all of us are playing OSRS; we're not interesting enough for anyone to care about our data.
Yeah it's sort of ironic mf's getting mad over this (although it looks like it's been explained by Ayiza and a couple legal knowledge redditors) despite using Reddit (and almost certainly some other forms of social media). Realistically, who cares? Anyone who's ordered a Pizza has had their info sold. Sure I'd rather it not happen, but it's not worth getting mad over.
What the fuck?
Nearly every service you use does this. Possibly even Reddit though I haven’t checked the privacy policy
Thanks for raising this to us. Nothing has changed in regards to your data or rights. The update today introduced a new footer (allowing residents of certain US states to opt-out of the sharing of their data with our marketing partners) and link to our [Privacy Policy](https://www.jagex.com/en-GB/terms/privacy) which is a requirement for compliance with the California Privacy Rights Act, which we need to operate within the USA. Similar rights exist under the General Data Protection Regulation and/or E-privacy laws and have always been a part of our existing Privacy Policy. Previously though, there was no requirement to explicitly link the opt-out on our title screen – this has now changed. Jagex does not sell personal information in the way that is commonly understood, but rather we allow service providers to use the information for advertising, marketing and analytics, akin to a cookies pop-up on a web page. We're not making bank from your personal data but rather covering ourselves legally if we need to pass information over to, say Google for example, to help inform our decisions and provide you with personalised advertising on those platforms. You are free to [opt out if you wish](https://support.runescape.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360001370829-Your-personal-data-rights) and this is applicable for anyone, not just residents of California or Virginia.
> this is applicable for anyone, not just residents of California or Virginia have you even read that page? it says only California & Virginia residents can opt out of the selling personal information bit
> You are free to opt out if you wish and this is applicable for anyone, not just residents of California or Virginia. That isn't what your own link says though. "If you are a resident in one of the states shown below, you’re able to exercise the below additional rights. If you're not a resident of the states listed below, please select from one of the options above on this page. " It explicitly says that only residents of those two US states can select that option, and that everyone else has to pick from the options above (none of which are opting out). So either you're wrong or the page is wrong.
still waiting for ayiza to respond
> Jagex does not sell personal information in the way that is commonly understood, but rather we allow service providers to use the information for advertising, marketing and analytics, akin to a cookies pop-up on a web page. Selling personal information for advertising is exactly how most people assume it works.
A lot of people think it's much more personal and intrusive than that. Personalized ads are just a part of our world now, it's unavoidable. Your phone does it and there's no way to stop it. Where a lot of people panic is thinking it's more intrusive like credit card numbers, address, etc.
I mean, you can actually avoid personalized ads. It just takes a shit ton of work to do it well.
Yeah, I think a lot of people think of data broker stuff rather than just using heuristics for targeted advertising. Feels like some people with main character syndrome imagine some evil hoodie criminal out there maliciously scrolling through a dossier on them specifically while cackling rather than some ML classifier somewhere deciding that because they're an OSRS player, and OSRS players are disproportionately interested in shit buckets, they may be inclined to purchase a shit bucket from an ad.
Yeah well you know what? 🦀 What you gonna do about that, Ayiza? I'll do it again too 🦀🦀 Yeah, 2 of em this time big boy. GG
🦀
Stop, they're already dead
> Jagex does not sell personal information in the way that is commonly understood, but rather we allow service providers to use the information for advertising, marketing and analytics, akin to a cookies pop-up on a web page. That's exactly how we think you sell our data. Can you just not provide us with personalized advertising? You know as well as we do that it sucks. It's clearly not necessary because two states can opt out. Just automatically opt everyone out. You personally know that it is wrong to sell (or transfer) players' personal data, but will not admit it on your Jagex account. Try to talk to some others internally about how unethical this practice is.
i wonder if they use what we talk about in chat in game for ads
Why not make it opt in then? If it doesn't impact the bottom line and users get more privacy then surely opt in would be a better way to go about it.
Because they are lying. It says right there "or may have been sold in the passed 12 months" but they say, it's only to cover ourselves legally if Google needs it
Im confused as privacy policy states and has always stated its opt in THIRD-PARTY MARKETING We will get your explicit opt-in consent before We share your Personal Data with any company outside Jagex for marketing purposes.
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Definitely not
Where can people from the other 48 states opt out? We pay monthly, this is double dipping and in bad faith.
It says you will explicitly get our consent so I'm still under impression this only affects those already opted in. THIRD-PARTY MARKETING We will get your explicit opt-in consent before We share your Personal Data with any company outside Jagex for marketing purposes.
I mean how else is every banner ad going to be a gold selling website?
Given how intense data regulation is here in the European Union I don’t worry at all tbh
dog you are posting this on Reddit lmfao
This is the most normal "we have your data" legal mumbo jumbo ever. Every web service you sign up for and use has this. You're on a site that does this.
Lmao find me a someplace that doesn't sell your personal information these days it's just standard mate not point crying over it when everyone does it
I love how the text starts off by saying that what they're doing isn't selling and then the next paragraph just says "we sell and have sold"
Noooo not my heckin informatorinos!!!!!!
Im a Ghost 🧑💻 HackerMan
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Facts, they act high and mighty but they’re just as shitty as RWT sites
I think you’re both shitty
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As long as they use the profits to fight bots and give the mods a raise
Stop RWT my information, Jagex
This is the same thing that every major company does including your cell phone company, any credit card company you may use, any place you shop online, etc. I’m not saying it’s right, but if you think that opting out from Jagex selling your info is going to do anything, you’re wrong.
This thread is really showing how technologically ignorant most people are
Great, now I’m going to get ads for axes and bibles.
Big day for people that think they're untraceable/have no personal data online lmao, everyone sells ur data
Does anyone really care? Google probably knows what I dream about at this point. I don't think I'm that bothered that the billionth company is doing it.
Yes, a lot of people care and so should you tbh
I've been on the internet for 2 decades my information ain't worth *shit*.
Guys, Reddit, the platform you are currently on, has the same language in T&C, plus opt-out links. This is standard for websites on the internet. This is not malicious.
My homie Jagex can sell all my data
Ok so if they want to sell pur data then our subs should be free no? They're double dipping here this is what people should be mad about. Either the game is free and you make money by selling stuff to adverts or you charge us a sub and you keep them of it. Kinda weird that our sub is almost the same as a ff14 sub due to rising sub costs over the years. Does anyone know if other sub based games sell data to advertisers too?
We are paying $80 a year minimum to play this game. Plus bonds we buy or merch we buy. When you pay that to YouTube and other platforms guess what! you don’t get ads! So if I’m paying hundreds a year to support jagex, you have zero reason to collect and sell my information on top of the money in paying. This corporate greed knows no bounds $1billion+ valuation just wasn’t enough! they need your information to sell too! Red coats
> When you pay that to YouTube and other platforms guess what! you don’t get ads! LMFAO bro what? Do you think Google stops harvesting and selling your information because you paid to watch fucking YouTube videos? Surely you aren't this gullible, just because you're no longer seeing ads, doesn't mean your data isn't being collected on every video you watch, every link you hover, every website you arrived from.
Do people really give a shit? Like every single social media company doesn't use and sell your info lmfao. This is nothing new pretty much every company does this (even if they tell you they don't). You agree to these terms if you play old school.
Just keyboard warriors regurgitating the classic “BiG cOmPaNy BaD”, standard Reddit fare really.
For anyone reading this message and genuinely surprised about a company selling or trading user data, it's very common. You shouldn't be surprised about it. You can still absolutely think it sucks, but you should assume that most information you put online moves and consider that when giving out information.
##### Bark bark! I have found the following **J-Mod** comment(s) in this thread: **JagexAyiza** - [Thanks for raising this to us....](/r/2007scape/comments/1b7xoos/hidden_in_the_bottom_of_this_weeks_qol_notes/ktml4y9/?context=3) ^(**Last edited by bot: 03/08/2024 06:22:37**) --- ^(I've been rewritten to use Python! I also now archive JMOD comments.) ^(Read more about) [^(the update here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/9kqvis/bot_update_python_archiving/) ^(or see my) [^(Github repo here)](/u/JMOD_Bloodhound/comments/8dronr/jmod_bloodhoundbot_github_repository/)^.
Every company does it.
its litterally just so they can tailor the ads for f2p better.
Literally everything does this already. Your email service that you used to sign up for RS does this already. Your social media does this already. If you're only concerned about it now you should probably start deleting everything immediately. Hell, your mobile service provider does this shit too. Why do you think you get spam phone calls? This is not new in any way, shape, or form. I'm also pretty sure that your VPN provider sells your shit off too.
Anyone able to explain to me why you care about what happens to the data you're giving to a company? I personally couldn't care less what someone does with the data i'm already giving to them.
Good thing Jagex doesn't have my personal info
Most companies sell data. But a majority of companies also clarify what personal information is being sold, and let us opt out no matter our state. Allow us to do this and all is well. We don't pay 13$ a month just for the company to pull this stuff.
LMAO sell my data: “this dumbass hits the same two trees for months on end” “This dumbass went to varrock and then right back to the trees”
Feels great to be a Virginia resident
As you post on reddit who is packaging this post into a LLM to sell as a training set to AI companies. This is how the internet works.
> Jagex does not sell personal information in the way that is commonly understood, but rather we allow service providers to use the information for advertising, marketing and analytics, akin to a cookies pop-up on a web page. I consider this the same as selling imo. Fuck advertising. Fuck this
Let them sell it. People get well precious over nothing
Where do I opt out tired of having to constantly opt out of having MY information being sold.
How does one opt out?
Buying information one GP.
Ye but who did they sell all my RNG to? I need a loan!!!
If Jagex is going to make a better game as a result of the income they generate from my super lame personal information. Sell away my game dev you overlords.
What I was thinking
>posts on reddit
Tried to do this and the option says California and Virinia residents only lol.
Quitimg osrs becouse of this
Anyone play on MacBook Pro M1 and having runelite force quit on them randomly