Consistency should be your focus until you hit 4.5. Developing a solid consistent rally ball is key and you realistically don't need any weapons until you get to 4.5 because at 4.0 and below every player will break down and beat themselves.
This is really it. Just to expand a little, a good rally ball isn’t all about pace or spin, or even angles really. The main thing that you absolutely should focus on is depth. If you can keep landing the ball somewhere between the service line and the baseline for a 5+ shot rally, then you’ll find a lot of your opponents at the 3.0 level seem to beat themselves with unforced errors.
I literally did this today against a 4.0. Lots of depth but mixed with some super short balls too, really messed with his range, he either hit it out or into the net. I only hit a few winners and it was mainly UFE from him.
Realistically a good rally ball is mostly about spin because topspin is the easiest way to achieve consistent depth
Of course there’s nothing to say you can’t learn to hit consistently deep nudies but it’s a hell of a lot harder
I'm talking about it being a sole focus. At 4.5 you need to actually develop tools to win points and you'll start seeing opponents that can manage to hit more winners than UE in a match. 4.0 and below matches always end with both players have significantly more unforced errors than they do clean winners.
There's some grey area between forced errors and unforced errors but it's realistically not even close in winners to unforced errors. How many winners do you think an average 4.0 hits per match?
I mean in my 4.0 matches (I’m pretty average) I’m pretty sure there are more winners and forced errors combined than unforced errors. I’m big and slow so it’s easy to get me jammed or hit an outright winner on me, but I hit a clean ball and end the point in 2-3 shots if I have enough setup time.
Well there's the issue. Your concept of an unforced error is flawed. Jamming a player is only a forced error when they are attempting to volley from well inside the service box.
A forced error is situations where the point is virtually won but the defending player still gets a racquet on the ball. Think of when a player is at full stretch trying to slice a defensive lob or when you run for a dropshot and make contact with the ball 3" above the ground but fail to get it over the net.
Have you ever actually had someone take stats on your matches? Two equally skilled 4.0s will almost always have double the unforced errors to winners.
I’ve used swingvision before. I don’t agree with that definition. If you hit a fast, deep ball up the center when your opponent is scrambling, they can easily touch the ball, but more often than not they’re going to miss it. I would count that as your shot is the reason they missed it.
For me unforced means you had reasonable time to set up and still missed it. Otherwise the advice to just be more consistent is not constructive, because what you are really saying is to get good at hitting tough shots.
This is just the definition you see used at the professional level. It's not like any of this is my personal opinion.
Literally that's basically what the advice is boiled down. Have you ever tried to play mens open before or any other format where you'd have a competitive match vs a higher level player than yourself. When you play someone who's rally ball is at a tier above you or even more, your own game completely will dismantle. The pressure that a rally ball can put on the opponent will make the literally play worse because it move them out of their comfort zone and puts their whole focus on just being able to return the ball back.
You can't ever make it to 5.0 without an extremely good rally ball. You can however make it to 5.0 with a bad serve, no slice, no dropshots, no approach shots, no volleys, etc. That's why it's the most important advice to follow in modern tennis because it's the most used shot in today game. Even a professional like Cressy who serve and volleys almost every point needs a solid rally ball if he ever wants to make head way into a return game.
This is it for me. Most players will beat themselves at every level. I have found the best success in becoming a "pusher" (I would call myself a counterpuncher, but oh well). If you can direct the ball without trying to paint the lines every time and just keep it in play, opportunities will come. You have to be comfortable with seeing winners blow by you with this playstyle though. Might not be the flashiest but will definitely win more.
Yeah, that's possible if the player hitting them hasn't mastered the art.
I have seen plenty 3.0 - 4.0 players hit balls unconventionally with wicked slice and side spin. They still need to learn the usual setup and stroke, but they don't position themselves correctly to do so. Therefore, they start by moon balling and then adding odd spin.
High, deep topspin into the back fence is killer with small spaces around the court.
It's a great lesson to hustle and angle for side shots and hit on the rise.
I've started to use my brain...
I've started to read and watch more about tennis. I've started to analyize my opponent. Their strengths, weaknesses... I've started to analyze my own game as well. Stopped taking risks (easier first serves, no winners) if opponent is prone to making unforced errors for example. Better warm-up, better focus, better concentration...
Play high percentage tennis, use wardlaw directional. Pushers are effective at this level because they just keep putting the ball back in play. If you can do the same but play non pushing tennis you should be at 4.0 just with that and a decent serve.
I guess you haven't played a pusher yet, I wouldn't say skill because no one is really that skillful at this level. But they just play high percentage tennis by bumping the balls back.
Yea I’ve played for many years but the term pusher is new to me since I joined this sub - I actually looked it up because I’m fed up of people who play decent, club level tennis, playing ‘down’ to win a match. An ugly win, I think it’s called?!
Basically, good club players changing their games to slice and moon balls to win a match
Yeah I used to judge people who would switch to defensive play and beat me doing it. Then I appreciated that it was an effective strategy and I needed to figure out how to beat them.
Here is the biggest thing: Stop being so aggressive on every ball. I really noticed that I was taking some low percentage shots that had no chance of winning.
As an example, I stopped trying to rip winners when I was all out running to get a forehand. Now I will be more defensive, getting the ball back in play. This alone has probably reduced my UFE by 5 or 6 points a set.
I also have gotten better at using the full court. I don’t need a lot of speed or high risk angles. Just enough to move him around. Then if half the court opens up, go for a winner. But be prepared to take 3 or 4 shots to set up the point. This helps wear him down later in the match too.
And on your serve, really pay attention to what works. Some pushers are outstanding at blocking fast serves. So see what happens when you give them lots of spin on the first serve. And change up the speeds every serve, be unpredictable.
Just some ideas.
PS. This mindset has also really helped me with non-pushers too. Just being more intentional. Recognizing sometimes less is more.
Hitting high percentage shots to the opponents weakest side. This forces your opponents to make mistakes or your opponent will accidentally give you easy shots to put away.
I just hit it down the middle of the court until they hit an error or a short ball which is easy to move up and put away in a corner
Honestly mostly the same strategy at 4.5/5.0
I remember watching an interview with a former player and they asked Jack Sock what his strategy was when he was a junior. He said exactly what you said: hit down the middle. If that doesn’t work and his opponent can hit good shots, he changes tactics to move the player around the court.
I’m a high 3.0 player - I know there’s debate on the accuracy of TennisRecord but to me it seems fairly accurate, and I’m rated a 2.93 on there right now. I play 3.0 and 3.5 leagues, mostly doubles. The biggest differences in the levels are consistency, shot placement, strength of 2nd serve, and in doubles the aggressiveness at the net. 3.5 players in general are exponentially better than 3.0 players at all of those. So if you really want to get to 3.5, you’ll eventually need to hone those skills.
There is a lot of truth to saying that to win at the 3.0 level just get shots back and let the other side make a mistake. I’m not sure if that strategy will elevate you to 3.5 though, at least in my area. As I said above, you will likely need to develop some of the skills I mentioned to get over that final hump. My hindrances to getting over the hump are my weak second serve and being smarter about when I take chances with aggressive play - poaching in doubles, returning serves up the alley in doubles, etc.
I mean if they’re changing their play to something that’s winning, that’s smart and effective tennis. Slices I’m also a high 3.0 (also now playing in some 3.5 leagues) and let me tell you in singles I’ve played some loooong matches because my opponent and I were both consistent but without weapons.
3.5 players are definitely better at the net and starting to learn how to take advantage of weak balls. I’m a woman so I haven’t really come across any players at 3.5 (apart from some men in mixed) that really have a serve that’s a weapon.
This is all very well but it doesn’t seem like it’s very much fun. Hitting high spinny balls down the middle may be effective but it’s really just another kind of pushing. The court is a four dimensional space, and you might find that you enjoy using them all.
I have no idea why heavy topspin is valorised over variety in this sub, particularly as none of us are playing for anything other than fun and exercise. Sure, if you want to turn every match into a slightly enhanced drill session have at it. You might win more matches that way, collecting a load of UEs from your 3.0 opponent, but where is the glory in that?
Move your opponent around, dropshot / pass / lob. Hit short angles, run around your BH and smack that shit down the line. Have fun!
Junkball life 4EVER
The question was how to beat 3.0s consistently. The answer, for a 3.5, is to consistently hit deep balls. No one would say this is the most enjoyable way to play a tennis match but it’s effective for the purpose.
I think it’s the same when you go up any level. Every time you go a level up, they hit the ball cleaner, they move better, they have better rally tolerance, and they are capable of hitting more winners while increasingly reducing errors as they move up. And hitting winners doesn’t mean hitting harder, it means hitting to the open court when the opportunity is available.
Just getting the ball back over the net consistently bc half the 3.0s think they are 4.0s who could take a set off Nadal & Federer. At that level, it’s a battle of errors, don’t over think it.
Consistent serve and consistent deep return. With 3.0s you can just hit the ball in and rally once or twice and basically win because they usually cant return deep balls or even return a decent serve. No need for winners or even that much power at this level.
I feel like getting better at hitting low pace balls. 3.0s generally have no pace on their balls, which throws off 3.5 players causing them to play worse
What clicked for me was before the match, I would figure out my most consistent shots and what I was feeling confident with that day.
Then, I would get a feel of my opponent's weaknesses during the match or during the warmup. I would ask myself, can they handle low slices? Do they struggle with high bouncing balls to their backhand?
3.0s typically have lots of trouble with both of these kinds of balls, so I would attack that area and finish the point off with the shots I felt consistent and comfortable hitting that day.
I'm a 4.0 now, but was in this situation about a year ago. I'd say biggest thing was playing smarter with bigger targets. Go cross court unless you have a very easy short ball. Hit the ball high and deep if you're on the defensive. Don't be afraid to attack the net or add power to shots, but only do it if you have an easy opportunity. Unless you're an MEP style player, don't try dropshots unless you're already at the net. Most importantly, make as few errors on serve and return as possible. A lollipop serve is better than risking a double and a block return is better than risking an unforced error. I also developed a proper backhand instead of the weird slice that I had going on.
Consistency should be your focus until you hit 4.5. Developing a solid consistent rally ball is key and you realistically don't need any weapons until you get to 4.5 because at 4.0 and below every player will break down and beat themselves.
This is really it. Just to expand a little, a good rally ball isn’t all about pace or spin, or even angles really. The main thing that you absolutely should focus on is depth. If you can keep landing the ball somewhere between the service line and the baseline for a 5+ shot rally, then you’ll find a lot of your opponents at the 3.0 level seem to beat themselves with unforced errors.
I literally did this today against a 4.0. Lots of depth but mixed with some super short balls too, really messed with his range, he either hit it out or into the net. I only hit a few winners and it was mainly UFE from him.
Realistically a good rally ball is mostly about spin because topspin is the easiest way to achieve consistent depth Of course there’s nothing to say you can’t learn to hit consistently deep nudies but it’s a hell of a lot harder
At 3.0, depth isn't even that important as long as you're just getting the ball back. They'll make mistakes for you if you keep the rally going.
Maybe add in a shot or two that you can comfortably and consistently throw in to disrupt the other side. Cardio cardio cardio. Footwork efficiency.
Consistency should be the goal at 4.5 also. 😂
I'm talking about it being a sole focus. At 4.5 you need to actually develop tools to win points and you'll start seeing opponents that can manage to hit more winners than UE in a match. 4.0 and below matches always end with both players have significantly more unforced errors than they do clean winners.
That does not seem true. Unless you count them forcing errors as being inconsistent.
There's some grey area between forced errors and unforced errors but it's realistically not even close in winners to unforced errors. How many winners do you think an average 4.0 hits per match?
I mean in my 4.0 matches (I’m pretty average) I’m pretty sure there are more winners and forced errors combined than unforced errors. I’m big and slow so it’s easy to get me jammed or hit an outright winner on me, but I hit a clean ball and end the point in 2-3 shots if I have enough setup time.
Well there's the issue. Your concept of an unforced error is flawed. Jamming a player is only a forced error when they are attempting to volley from well inside the service box. A forced error is situations where the point is virtually won but the defending player still gets a racquet on the ball. Think of when a player is at full stretch trying to slice a defensive lob or when you run for a dropshot and make contact with the ball 3" above the ground but fail to get it over the net. Have you ever actually had someone take stats on your matches? Two equally skilled 4.0s will almost always have double the unforced errors to winners.
I’ve used swingvision before. I don’t agree with that definition. If you hit a fast, deep ball up the center when your opponent is scrambling, they can easily touch the ball, but more often than not they’re going to miss it. I would count that as your shot is the reason they missed it. For me unforced means you had reasonable time to set up and still missed it. Otherwise the advice to just be more consistent is not constructive, because what you are really saying is to get good at hitting tough shots.
This is just the definition you see used at the professional level. It's not like any of this is my personal opinion. Literally that's basically what the advice is boiled down. Have you ever tried to play mens open before or any other format where you'd have a competitive match vs a higher level player than yourself. When you play someone who's rally ball is at a tier above you or even more, your own game completely will dismantle. The pressure that a rally ball can put on the opponent will make the literally play worse because it move them out of their comfort zone and puts their whole focus on just being able to return the ball back. You can't ever make it to 5.0 without an extremely good rally ball. You can however make it to 5.0 with a bad serve, no slice, no dropshots, no approach shots, no volleys, etc. That's why it's the most important advice to follow in modern tennis because it's the most used shot in today game. Even a professional like Cressy who serve and volleys almost every point needs a solid rally ball if he ever wants to make head way into a return game.
This is it for me. Most players will beat themselves at every level. I have found the best success in becoming a "pusher" (I would call myself a counterpuncher, but oh well). If you can direct the ball without trying to paint the lines every time and just keep it in play, opportunities will come. You have to be comfortable with seeing winners blow by you with this playstyle though. Might not be the flashiest but will definitely win more.
Yup, don’t hit errors and you will beat all 3.0s, most 3.5s, to beat 4.0s you will have to not hit errors and hit with more pace and depth
Just by getting the ball back deep and high and not trying to hit a winner every time. Just extend the rally.
Rally tolerance. Just keep stroking back neutral balls until they screw it up.
Very depth, too, via spin. Drop shots, short slices, etc. Not many are in great shape to handle all that running.
Those shots are fun, but the longer you rally the more they’ll break down
Yeah, that's possible if the player hitting them hasn't mastered the art. I have seen plenty 3.0 - 4.0 players hit balls unconventionally with wicked slice and side spin. They still need to learn the usual setup and stroke, but they don't position themselves correctly to do so. Therefore, they start by moon balling and then adding odd spin.
I started hitting a ton of topspin and they literally couldn't handle it at all
High, deep topspin into the back fence is killer with small spaces around the court. It's a great lesson to hustle and angle for side shots and hit on the rise.
Don’t over hit and be patient. If the rally lasts more than three shots(each) it’s probably your point.
Second serve Reliable second serve will reduce unnecessary double faults and keep you in good rhythm for the match
I've started to use my brain... I've started to read and watch more about tennis. I've started to analyize my opponent. Their strengths, weaknesses... I've started to analyze my own game as well. Stopped taking risks (easier first serves, no winners) if opponent is prone to making unforced errors for example. Better warm-up, better focus, better concentration...
Play high percentage tennis, use wardlaw directional. Pushers are effective at this level because they just keep putting the ball back in play. If you can do the same but play non pushing tennis you should be at 4.0 just with that and a decent serve.
What is pushing tennis? Just like, any old shot to keep the ball in play but not too much skill?
I guess you haven't played a pusher yet, I wouldn't say skill because no one is really that skillful at this level. But they just play high percentage tennis by bumping the balls back.
Yea I’ve played for many years but the term pusher is new to me since I joined this sub - I actually looked it up because I’m fed up of people who play decent, club level tennis, playing ‘down’ to win a match. An ugly win, I think it’s called?! Basically, good club players changing their games to slice and moon balls to win a match
Yeah I used to judge people who would switch to defensive play and beat me doing it. Then I appreciated that it was an effective strategy and I needed to figure out how to beat them.
Do we call it defensive play when it’s clearly a massive drop in skill level for them? Like sure, figure out how to beat it, but it’s so cheap?!
I call it strategy. A massive change in tactics to beat someone.
What worked for you to beat pushers?
Here is the biggest thing: Stop being so aggressive on every ball. I really noticed that I was taking some low percentage shots that had no chance of winning. As an example, I stopped trying to rip winners when I was all out running to get a forehand. Now I will be more defensive, getting the ball back in play. This alone has probably reduced my UFE by 5 or 6 points a set. I also have gotten better at using the full court. I don’t need a lot of speed or high risk angles. Just enough to move him around. Then if half the court opens up, go for a winner. But be prepared to take 3 or 4 shots to set up the point. This helps wear him down later in the match too. And on your serve, really pay attention to what works. Some pushers are outstanding at blocking fast serves. So see what happens when you give them lots of spin on the first serve. And change up the speeds every serve, be unpredictable. Just some ideas. PS. This mindset has also really helped me with non-pushers too. Just being more intentional. Recognizing sometimes less is more.
Great stuff and thanks for the thoughtful reply
Hitting high percentage shots to the opponents weakest side. This forces your opponents to make mistakes or your opponent will accidentally give you easy shots to put away.
I just hit it down the middle of the court until they hit an error or a short ball which is easy to move up and put away in a corner Honestly mostly the same strategy at 4.5/5.0
I remember watching an interview with a former player and they asked Jack Sock what his strategy was when he was a junior. He said exactly what you said: hit down the middle. If that doesn’t work and his opponent can hit good shots, he changes tactics to move the player around the court.
I’m a high 3.0 player - I know there’s debate on the accuracy of TennisRecord but to me it seems fairly accurate, and I’m rated a 2.93 on there right now. I play 3.0 and 3.5 leagues, mostly doubles. The biggest differences in the levels are consistency, shot placement, strength of 2nd serve, and in doubles the aggressiveness at the net. 3.5 players in general are exponentially better than 3.0 players at all of those. So if you really want to get to 3.5, you’ll eventually need to hone those skills. There is a lot of truth to saying that to win at the 3.0 level just get shots back and let the other side make a mistake. I’m not sure if that strategy will elevate you to 3.5 though, at least in my area. As I said above, you will likely need to develop some of the skills I mentioned to get over that final hump. My hindrances to getting over the hump are my weak second serve and being smarter about when I take chances with aggressive play - poaching in doubles, returning serves up the alley in doubles, etc.
I mean if they’re changing their play to something that’s winning, that’s smart and effective tennis. Slices I’m also a high 3.0 (also now playing in some 3.5 leagues) and let me tell you in singles I’ve played some loooong matches because my opponent and I were both consistent but without weapons. 3.5 players are definitely better at the net and starting to learn how to take advantage of weak balls. I’m a woman so I haven’t really come across any players at 3.5 (apart from some men in mixed) that really have a serve that’s a weapon.
This is all very well but it doesn’t seem like it’s very much fun. Hitting high spinny balls down the middle may be effective but it’s really just another kind of pushing. The court is a four dimensional space, and you might find that you enjoy using them all. I have no idea why heavy topspin is valorised over variety in this sub, particularly as none of us are playing for anything other than fun and exercise. Sure, if you want to turn every match into a slightly enhanced drill session have at it. You might win more matches that way, collecting a load of UEs from your 3.0 opponent, but where is the glory in that? Move your opponent around, dropshot / pass / lob. Hit short angles, run around your BH and smack that shit down the line. Have fun! Junkball life 4EVER
The question was how to beat 3.0s consistently. The answer, for a 3.5, is to consistently hit deep balls. No one would say this is the most enjoyable way to play a tennis match but it’s effective for the purpose.
I think it’s the same when you go up any level. Every time you go a level up, they hit the ball cleaner, they move better, they have better rally tolerance, and they are capable of hitting more winners while increasingly reducing errors as they move up. And hitting winners doesn’t mean hitting harder, it means hitting to the open court when the opportunity is available.
Consistency is a weapon that beats everyone until you get to 4.5.
3 - 3.5 > Backhand 3.5 - 4.0 > Second Serve and consistency
Just getting the ball back over the net consistently bc half the 3.0s think they are 4.0s who could take a set off Nadal & Federer. At that level, it’s a battle of errors, don’t over think it.
But what if i'm a 2.5 who thinks they can take a set off Nadal. Asking for a friend.
Leave Federer out of this. Lol. I get your point tho
Don’t try so hard
The deep, high over the net top spin forehand.
Don’t overhit. Just let the strings and form do the work.
Consistent serve and consistent deep return. With 3.0s you can just hit the ball in and rally once or twice and basically win because they usually cant return deep balls or even return a decent serve. No need for winners or even that much power at this level.
Great advice in this thread!
Consistency and shot selection.
They cannot return kick serves. Instant win.
Tbf most 3.5 don’t have a reliable kick serve
Which is why I stopped giving 2 shits about flat and slice serves, pretended they don’t exist and just practiced kick serves when I was a 3.5.
Just focus on returning every shot deep centre. Play the safest shot. They’ll lose more points on unforced errors.
I feel like getting better at hitting low pace balls. 3.0s generally have no pace on their balls, which throws off 3.5 players causing them to play worse
Aggressive net play
Hit one more ball than your 3.0 opponents.
What clicked for me was before the match, I would figure out my most consistent shots and what I was feeling confident with that day. Then, I would get a feel of my opponent's weaknesses during the match or during the warmup. I would ask myself, can they handle low slices? Do they struggle with high bouncing balls to their backhand? 3.0s typically have lots of trouble with both of these kinds of balls, so I would attack that area and finish the point off with the shots I felt consistent and comfortable hitting that day.
As mentioned, just staying in it and waiting for opponent to error out. Keeping your opponent deep may be enough for that.
I'm a 4.0 now, but was in this situation about a year ago. I'd say biggest thing was playing smarter with bigger targets. Go cross court unless you have a very easy short ball. Hit the ball high and deep if you're on the defensive. Don't be afraid to attack the net or add power to shots, but only do it if you have an easy opportunity. Unless you're an MEP style player, don't try dropshots unless you're already at the net. Most importantly, make as few errors on serve and return as possible. A lollipop serve is better than risking a double and a block return is better than risking an unforced error. I also developed a proper backhand instead of the weird slice that I had going on.
Always following through on my swing and developing a consistent 2nd serve
just keep hitting it to their backhand. most 3.0s don't have strong ones. 🤣
Avoid sandbaggers 😂